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book_n article_n church_n faith_n 2,831 5 5.2602 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A28837 A conference with Mr. Claude, minister of Charenton, concerning the authority of the church by James Benigne Bossuet, Bishop of Meaux ... ; faithfully done into English out of the French original.; Conference avec M. Claude, ministre de Charenton, sur la matière de l'eglise. English Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687. 1687 (1687) Wing B3780; ESTC R23256 107,935 138

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when_o we_o believe_v she_o without_o examine_v i_o tell_v he_o he_o need_v not_o make_v so_o strange_a of_o a_o thing_n which_o they_o do_v as_o well_o as_o we_o and_o upon_o that_o i_o ask_v he_o whether_o a_o believer_n at_o his_o first_o receive_v the_o holy_a scripture_n from_o the_o church_n be_v oblige_v first_o to_o doubt_v and_o after_o to_o examine_v whether_o the_o book_n she_o put_v into_o his_o hand_n be_v true_o inspire_v by_o god_n or_o no._n if_o this_o believer_n examine_v and_o doubt_n he_o renounce_v the_o faith_n and_o begin_v the_o read_n of_o the_o gospel_n by_o a_o act_n of_o infidelity_n and_o if_o he_o doubt_v not_o he_o than_o receive_v without_o examine_v the_o authority_n of_o the_o church_n which_o present_v he_o the_o gospel_n to_o this_o see_v mr._n claude_n answer_n the_o believer_n you_o suppose_v who_o have_v not_o read_v the_o holy_a scripture_n and_o into_o who_o hand_n it_o be_v put_v to_o speak_v proper_o doubt_v not_o he_o be_v ignorant_a he_o 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as_o open_v the_o book_n he_o form_v not_o then_o his_o faith_n by_o the_o read_n of_o the_o scripture_n this_o read_n find_v his_o faith_n already_o form_v this_o read_n do_v but_o confirm_v to_o a_o christian_a all_o he_o already_o believe_v and_o all_o he_o have_v already_o find_v in_o the_o church_n belief_n he_o believe_v then_o before_o all_o thing_n that_o the_o church_n deceive_v he_o not_o and_o by_o this_o he_o begin_v to_o make_v the_o act_n of_o a_o christian_n child_n be_v not_o instruct_v in_o any_o other_o manner_n when_o they_o hear_v their_o parent_n it_o be_v the_o church_n they_o hear_v for_o our_o parent_n be_v our_o teacher_n only_o as_o they_o be_v child_n of_o the_o church_n it_o be_v for_o this_o reason_n the_o holy_a ghost_n send_v we_o to_o they_o ask_v thy_o father_n and_o he_o will_v show_v thou_o thy_o elder_n and_o they_o will_v tell_v thou_o st._n basil_n 29._o ep._n 29._o so_o great_a a_o divine_a justify_v himself_o and_o at_o the_o same_o time_n 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these_o innocent_a soul_n perceive_v they_o be_v the_o secret_a of_o his_o holy_a spirit_n however_o it_o be_v certain_a that_o this_o be_v do_v and_o by_o this_o he_o begin_v as_o this_o be_v the_o first_o christian_a act_n we_o make_v and_o as_o on_o this_o foundation_n all_o be_v build_v so_o it_o subsist_v for_o ever_o the_o time_n will_v come_v when_o we_o shall_v know_v more_o distinct_o why_o we_o believe_v and_o the_o church_n authority_n will_v from_o day_n to_o day_n become_v strong_a in_o our_o mind_n the_o scripture_n itself_o will_v fortify_v the_o chain_n which_o bound_v we_o to_o she_o but_o we_o must_v always_o have_v recourse_n to_o the_o original_a that_o be_v to_o believe_v on_o the_o church_n authority_n what_o age_n soever_o we_o be_v at_o it_o be_v by_o this_o we_o begin_v to_o believe_v the_o scripture_n we_o continue_v also_o on_o the_o same_o foundation_n and_o st._n augustin_n be_v already_o perfect_a in_o the_o ecclesiastical_a science_n 5._o cont._n ep._n fudam_n 5._o when_o he_o say_v he_o will_v not_o believe_v the_o gospel_n if_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n do_v not_o oblige_v he_o to_o it_o i_o can_v be_v it_o in_o dispute_n show_v the_o same_o opinion_n in_o the_o other_o father_n we_o must_v always_o re-ascend_a to_o the_o first_o principle_n and_o this_o be_v the_o first_o principle_n that_o fix_v we_o to_o the_o church_n let_v they_o not_o reproach_n to_o we_o this_o vicious_a circle_n the_o church_n make_v we_o believe_v the_o scripture_n the_o scripture_n make_v we_o believe_v the_o church_n this_o on_o both_o side_n be_v true_a in_o different_a respect_n the_o church_n and_o the_o scripture_n be_v so_o make_v for_o one_o another_o and_o do_v so_o perfect_o suit_n with_o one_o another_o that_o they_o support_v each_o other_o like_a stone_n in_o a_o arch_n which_o mutual_o keep_v up_o the_o building_n all_o nature_n be_v full_a of_o such_o example_n i_o bear_v the_o staff_n on_o which_o i_o lean_v the_o 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the_o uncertainty_n of_o human_a faith_n i_o never_o change_v say_v st._n basil_n what_o i_o believe_v from_o my_o infancy_n 79._o ep._n 79._o have_v only_o be_v strengthen_v in_o my_o follow_a year_n without_o pass_v from_o one_o opinion_n to_o another_o i_o have_v only_o perfect_v what_o be_v at_o first_o give_v i_o by_o my_o parent_n as_o a_o grain_n which_o be_v sow_o of_o little_a that_o it_o be_v become_v big_a but_o continue_v always_o the_o same_o in_o itself_o and_o without_o change_v its_o nature_n take_v only_o increase_v so_o be_v may_v faith_n increase_v and_o this_o be_v not_o a_o change_n in_o which_o one_o pass_n from_o worse_a to_o better_o but_o a_o accomplishment_n of_o a_o work_n already_o begin_v and_o the_o confirmation_n of_o faith_n by_o knowledge_n in_o this_o manner_n we_o pass_v not_o as_o among_o our_o reform_a from_o a_o state_n of_o doubt_n to_o a_o state_n of_o certainty_n or_o as_o mr._n claude_n love_v better_a to_o speak_v from_o a_o human_a faith_n 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they_o have_v ordain_v because_o i_o conclude_v thence_o that_o they_o give_v the_o form_n to_o all_o follow_a age_n and_o teach_v we_o how_o in_o all_o time_n the_o faithful_a aught_o to_o submit_v to_o the_o church_n decision_n without_o examine_v after_o several_a answer_n but_o all_o frivolous_a they_o be_v fain_o at_o last_o to_o answer_v i_o clear_o that_o one_o ought_v yet_o to_o examine_v after_o the_o council_n of_o the_o apostle_n it_o be_v the_o 〈◊〉_d it_o be_v the_o first_o that_o answer_v the_o exposition_n who_o write_v in_o these_o term_n we_o do_v not_o see_v that_o the_o apostle_n publish_v their_o decision_n with_o a_o absolute_a order_n it_o shall_v '_o be_v obey_v but_o they_o send_v paul_n barnabas_n and_o sila●_n for_o to_o instruct_v the_o faithful_a to_o keep_v this_o ordinance_n that_o be_v evident_o to_o persuade_v they_o the_o motive_n and_o ground_n of_o it_o which_o say_v not_o that_o they_o be_v forbid_v to_o examen_n this_o be_v what_o the_o anonymus_fw-la ses_fw-fr the_o place_n be_v remarkable_a you_o will_v find_v it_o in_o the_o nineteenth_o article_n of_o the_o first_o answer_n in_o the_o four_o and_o last_o observation_n he_o make_v on_o the_o council_n of_o the_o apostle_n page_n the_o 328_o the_o this_o be_v not_o a_o particular_a sentiment_n of_o this_o author_n since_o there_o be_v place_v in_o the_o front_n of_o his_o book_n the_o approbation_n of_o four_o minister_n of_o charenton_n of_o which_o mr._n claude_n be_v one_o to_o the_o end_n he_o may_v not_o say_v i_o charge_v he_o with_o a_o strange_a doctrine_n in_o impute_v to_o he_o that_o of_o this_o ano●●mus_n thus_o it_o be_v not_o the_o unbelieve_a jew_n and_o gentile_n it_o be_v the_o faithful_a the_o christian_a church_n that_o aught_o to_o examine_v after_o the_o apostle_n and_o after_o the_o apostle_n assemble_v and_o after_o they_o have_v pronounce_v it_o seem_v good_a to_o the_o holy_a ghost_n and_o to_o we_o and_o this_o prodigious_a doctrine_n be_v teach_v in_o a_o church_n which_o vau●●●_n of_o hear_v nothing_o but_o the_o pure_a word_n of_o the_o apostle_n see_v whither_o the_o minister_n and_o the_o pretend_a reform_a and_o particular_o mr._n claude_n be_v force_v by_o their_o belief_n to_o carry_v the_o necessity_n of_o the_o examen_fw-la there_o be_v nothing_o leave_v but_o to_o say_v we_o must_v yet_o examine_v after_o jesus_n christ_n and_o that_o with_o all_o his_o miracle_n and_o all_o the_o authority_n give_v he_o by_o his_o father_n he_o have_v not_o enough_o to_o oblige_v man_n to_o follow_v he_o on_o his_o word_n and_o without_o examine_v mr._n claude_n say_v it_o in_o our_o conference_n and_o say_v it_o again_o in_o his_o relation_n i_o desire_v the_o prudent_a reader_n to_o believe_v that_o in_o a_o matter_n of_o this_o importance_n i_o will_v neither_o impose_v upon_o he_o nor_o exaggerate_v let_v he_o follow_v i_o only_o with_o attention_n and_o he_o shall_v see_v the_o truth_n plain_o appear_v you_o have_v see_v how_o i_o object_v in_o the_o conference_n that_o unless_o there_o be_v acknowledge_v a_o live_n and_o speak_v authority_n to_o which_o every_o particular_a person_n be_v oblige_v to_o submit_v without_o examine_v private_a person_n will_v be_v bring_v to_o the_o presumption_n of_o believe_v they_o can_v understand_v the_o holy_a scripture_n better_o than_o all_o the_o council_n together_o and_o than_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o church_n to_o prove_v that_o in_o this_o there_o be_v not_o any_o thing_n so_o presumptuous_a or_o absurd_a mr._n claude_n answer_v i_o that_o in_o the_o time_n when_o jesus_n christ_n be_v upon_o the_o earth_n the_o case_n have_v happen_v when_o a_o private_a person_n ought_v to_o raise_v his_o own_o judgement_n above_o that_o of_o the_o synagogue_n assemble_v which_o condemn_v jesus_n christ_n that_o this_o be_v so_o far_o from_o be_v a_o sentiment_n of_o pride_n that_o it_o be_v the_o act_n of_o a_o perfect_a faith_n this_o answer_n i_o confess_v strike_v 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however_o it_o be_v and_o without_o dispute_v any_o far_o since_o this_o be_v no_o place_n for_o it_o we_o have_v show_v that_o it_o be_v a_o doctrine_n acknowledge_v in_o the_o new_a reformation_n that_o every_o particular_a person_n ought_v to_o examine_v after_o the_o church_n and_o consequent_o aught_o to_o believe_v that_o he_o may_v happen_v to_o understand_v the_o scripture_n better_o than_o she_o and_o all_o her_o assembly_n those_o that_o abhor_v this_o presumption_n or_o that_o upon_o examination_n find_v not_o in_o themselves_o this_o false_a capacity_n have_v no_o more_o to_o do_v but_o to_o seek_v their_o salvation_n in_o another_o church_n than_o that_o in_o which_o so_o prodigious_a a_o doctrine_n be_v profess_v the_o three_o reflection_n on_o another_o proposition_n acknowledge_v by_o mr._n claude_n in_o the_o conference_n a_o explication_n of_o the_o manner_n of_o instruct_v christian_n and_o that_o the_o church_n infallible_a ●●thority_n be_v necessary_a for_o the_o 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to_o turn_v thing_n he_o have_v not_o be_v able_a to_o do_v it_o so_o well_o but_o that_o he_o still_o confess_v it_o in_o the_o relation_n in_o truth_n this_o be_v one_o of_o the_o place_n in_o which_o i_o least_o remember_v our_o exact_a word_n but_o there_o be_v still_o enough_o to_o convince_v he_o since_o if_o this_o relation_n become_v public_a every_o one_o will_v see_v he_o here_o acknowledge_v in_o formal_a term_n that_o he_o who_o have_v not_o yet_o read_v the_o holy_a scripture_n believe_v it_o to_o be_v gods_n word_n with_o human_a faith_n because_o his_o father_n tell_v he_o so_o which_o be_v the_o state_n of_o a_o catechumen_n and_o when_o he_o have_v himself_o read_v this_o book_n and_o feel_v the_o efficacy_n of_o it_o he_o believe_v it_o to_o be_v gods_n word_n no_o long_o with_o a_o human_a faith_n because_o his_o father_n tell_v he_o so_o but_o with_o a_o divine_a faith_n because_o he_o have_v himself_o immediate_o feel_v its_o divinity_n and_o this_o be_v the_o state_n of_o a_o believer_n it_o be_v then_o true_a that_o he_o have_v acknowledge_v the_o time_n i_o undertake_v to_o show_v when_o a_o baptise_a christian_n be_v not_o in_o a_o condition_n to_o make_v a_o act_n of_o supernatural_a and_o divine_a faith_n upon_o the_o holy_a scripture_n since_o he_o believe_v it_o to_o be_v gods_n word_n only_o by_o a_o human_a faith_n and_o divine_a faith_n can_v come_v till_o after_o the_o read_n of_o it_o in_o what_o manner_n soever_o he_o turn_v this_o human_a faith_n it_o be_v a_o horrible_a thing_n that_o a_o baptise_a christian_a at_o the_o age_n of_o reason_n can_v make_v upon_o the_o scripture_n a_o act_n of_o that_o faith_n by_o which_o we_o be_v christian_n for_o thence_o it_o follow_v that_o a_o christian_a at_o his_o first_o go_v to_o read_v the_o holy_a scripture_n ought_v neither_o to_o be_v incline_v of_o himself_o or_o induce_v by_o any_o other_o to_o say_v at_o open_v it_o i_o believe_v as_o i_o believe_v that_o god_n be_v that_o the_o scripture_n i_o be_o go_v to_o read_v be_v his_o word_n on_o the_o contrary_n they_o must_v make_v he_o say_v i_o be_o go_v to_o examine_v whether_o henceforth_o during_o the_o rest_n of_o my_o life_n i_o ought_v to_o read_v this_o scripture_n with_o such_o a_o faith_n it_o be_v to_o overthrow_v the_o whole_a order_n of_o instruction_n it_o be_v to_o lose_v the_o fruit_n of_o baptism_n it_o be_v to_o reduce_v baptise_a christian_n to_o instruct_v their_o child_n as_o if_o they_o be_v not_o so_o and_o that_o they_o be_v yet_o to_o deliberate_v of_o what_o religion_n they_o shall_v be_v and_o what_o mr._n claude_n say_v concern_v the_o scripture_n the_o same_o he_o must_v say_v on_o the_o faith_n of_o the_o trinity_n on_o that_o of_o the_o incarnation_n on_o that_o of_o jesus_n christs_n mission_n and_o the_o redemption_n of_o mankind_n for_o that_o which_o force_v mr._n claude_n and_o every_o protestant_n to_o say_v that_o the_o believer_n who_o have_v not_o read_v the_o holy_a 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