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A41330 The questions between the conformist and nonconformist, truly stated, and briefly discussed Dr. Falkner, The friendly debate &c., examined and answered : together with a discourse about separation, and some animadversions upon Dr. Stillingfleet's book entituled, The unreasonableness of separation : observations upon Dr. Templers sermon preached at a visitation in Cambridge : a brief vindication of Mr. Stephen Marshal. Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697. 1681 (1681) Wing F962; ESTC R16085 105,802 120

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in_o this_o course_n when_o nothing_o will_v do_v but_o they_o must_v come_v to_o excommunication_n how_o wise_o do_v they_o govern_v the_o brethren_n to_o bring_v they_o to_o declare_v their_o consent_n 10.6_o consent_n 2_o cor._n 10.6_o obediential_o to_o their_o elder_n for_o they_o deny_v the_o government_n to_o be_v democratical_a nor_o will_v i_o own_v the_o fraternity_n to_o be_v the_o first_o subject_n of_o the_o key_n in_o the_o beginning_n it_o be_v not_o so_o as_o our_o lord_n say_v in_o another_o case_n mat._n 19.8_o and_o to_o the_o beginning_n we_o must_v go_v and_o your_o 147._o your_o primit_fw-la government_n of_o church_n p._n 147._o thorndike_n speak_v excellent_o to_o this_o why_o the_o congregation_n ought_v to_o be_v concern_v in_o this_o now_o when_o all_o be_v agree_v how_o dreadful_a be_v the_o sentence_n what_o pale_a face_n how_o many_o tear_n do_v it_o cause_n in_o the_o congregation_n a_o solemn_a sight_n to_o behold_v the_o church_n put_v the_o person_n out_o of_o the_o congregation_n terrible_a as_o a_o army_n of_o banner_n cant._n 6_o 1●_n i_o have_v often_o think_v of_o the_o text_n since_o after_o this_o how_o excellent_o do_v the_o church_n walk_v towards_o a_o excommunicate_a person_n to_o bring_v to_o repentance_n and_o what_o rare_a effect_n have_v i_o know_v of_o this_o ordinance_n without_o any_o writ_n de_fw-fr excommunicato_fw-la capiendo_fw-la alas_o these_o can_v never_o effect_v what_o i_o have_v know_v to_o the_o humble_v of_o such_o a_o person_n and_o now_o sir_n do_v you_o think_v that_o we_o who_o have_v see_v these_o thing_n can_v join_v with_o your_o church_n where_o this_o ordinance_n so_o majestical_a so_o terrible_a be_v so_o horrible_o profane_v i_o pray_v sir_n pardon_v i_o though_o i_o stand_v off_o from_o it_o but_o i_o pray_v sir_n why_o do_v your_o bishop_n excommunicate_v those_o who_o be_v never_o of_o your_o church_n why_o do_v they_o not_o excommunicate_v the_o french_a or_o dutch_a true_o they_o 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paul_n and_o barnabas_n many_o elder_n and_o several_a evangelist_n and_o but_o two_o bishop_n who_o be_v evangelist_n too_o record_v in_o holy_a writ_n to_o be_v the_o pattern_n for_o the_o succeed_a bishop_n when_o where_o and_o how_o those_o two_o be_v make_v bishop_n we_o can_v find_v and_o for_o the_o large_a diocese_n so_o large_a that_o it_o be_v impossible_a for_o a_o bishop_n to_o perform_v the_o duty_n the_o lord_n require_v of_o a_o pastor_n to_o one_o quarter_n of_o the_o diocese_n 203_o pag._n 203_o the_o petitioner_n for_o reformation_n in_o king_n james_n reign_n tell_v his_o majesty_n that_o in_o augustine_n time_n there_o be_v in_o one_o province_n under_o carthage_n of_o the_o catholic_n and_o donatist_n bishop_n above_o nine_o hundred_o of_o the_o catholic_n part_v there_o be_v present_a 286_o and_o absent_a 120_o by_o reason_n of_o sickness_n and_o old_a age_n episcopal_a church_n void_a 60_o in_o all_o 466._o of_o the_o donatist_n there_o be_v present_a 279_o absent_a 120_o church_n void_a 60_o in_o all_o 459._o these_o come_v near_o the_o matter_n make_v he_o but_o episcopus_fw-la praeses_fw-la and_o as_o to_o officer_n and_o church_n i_o may_v come_v to_o agree_v with_o you_o leave_v my_o brethren_n to_o their_o judgement_n several_a other_o thing_n i_o take_v notice_n of_o in_o your_o book_n that_o may_v easy_o be_v answer_v as_o the_o perplex_v scruple_n you_o mention_v pag._n 384_o 385._o if_o we_o must_v baptize_v only_o by_o the_o parent_n right_a that_o man_n must_v run_v into_o no_o none_o at_o all_o but_o sir_n do_v you_o not_o forget_v yourself_o very_o much_o p._n 393._o when_o you_o tell_v we_o the_o difference_n between_o the_o popish_a ceremony_n and_o your_o ceremony_n viz._n that_o you_o be_v appoint_v only_o for_o decency_n and_o order_n sir_n do_v not_o your_o preface_n to_o your_o ceremony_n tell_v we_o another_o story_n viz._n of_o a_o significacy_n in_o they_o to_o put_v we_o in_o mind_n of_o our_o duty_n 2._o of_o a_o aptness_n in_o they_o to_o stir_v up_o our_o dull_a mind_n to_o our_o duty_n here_o be_v some_o efficacy_n in_o they_o to_o help_v to_o the_o performance_n of_o duty_n stir_v up_o dull_a mind_n these_o do_v not_o much_o differ_v from_o the_o efficacy_n you_o say_v the_o papist_n give_v to_o they_o for_o the_o purge_n away_o some_o sort_n of_o sin_n i_o think_v both_o alike_o as_o for_o your_o french_a letter_n who_o tell_v le_fw-fr moyne_n what_o he_o write_v pag._n 404._o that_o we_o believe_v that_o a_o man_n can_v be_v save_v in_o the_o church_n of_o england_n i_o never_o hear_v such_o a_o word_n from_o any_o dissenter_n nor_o ever_o have_v i_o such_o a_o thought_n certain_o none_n of_o our_o bishop_n will_v write_v such_o a_o line_n to_o he_o so_o that_o this_o must_v be_v the_o figment_n of_o a_o french_a man_n brain_n which_o we_o abhor_v for_o the_o story_n he_o write_v p._n 409._o of_o a_o nonconformist_n that_o he_o hear_v preach_v i_o can_v tell_v he_o a_o story_n of_o one_o of_o our_o late_a bishop_n ten_o time_n worse_o but_o the_o press_n shall_v not_o know_v it_o but_o you_o shall_v sir_n i_o have_v give_v you_o a_o few_o of_o my_o thought_n read_v over_o your_o book_n while_o my_o paper_n be_v in_o the_o press_n which_o have_v lie_v by_o i_o several_a year_n and_o must_v tell_v you_o i_o be_o not_o yet_o satisfy_v with_o the_o title_n of_o your_o book_n viz._n the_o vnreasonableness_n of_o separation_n etc._n etc._n to_o your_o prayer_n in_o the_o end_n of_o your_o preface_n i_o hearty_o say_v amen_o amen_n sir_n i_o be_o your_o servant_n to_o love_n and_o honour_v you_o g._n f._n the_o question_n between_o the_o conformist_n and_o nonconformist_n true_o state_v and_o brief_o discuss_v it_o be_v not_o without_o the_o order_n of_o divine_a providence_n that_o the_o day_n which_o the_o imitator_n of_o the_o heathen_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d do_v consecrate_v to_o their_o st._n bartholomew_n shall_v be_v the_o day_n on_o which_o the_o blood_n of_o so_o many_o thousand_o protestant_n be_v pour_v out_o in_o france_n and_o the_o day_n also_o on_o which_o so_o many_o hundred_o of_o gospel-minister_n to_o who_o christ_n have_v give_v both_o will_n and_o skill_n for_o his_o work_n success_n in_o his_o work_n be_v turn_v out_o of_o his_o work_n in_o england_n the_o crime_n both_o there_o and_o here_o which_o they_o find_v be_v the_o same_o the_o prince_n find_v against_o daniel_n in_o the_o law_n of_o his_o god_n a_o day_n of_o gladness_n it_o be_v to_o many_o but_o not_o to_o all_o upon_o the_o same_o ground_n one_o conformist_n and_o a_o man_n of_o note_n tell_v a_o captain_n under_o his_o majesty_n since_o his_o return_n that_o he_o be_v glad_a so_o many_o minister_n refuse_v to_o conform_v the_o captain_n will_v know_v his_o reason_n he_o give_v it_o thus_o have_v all_o minister_n conform_v people_n will_v have_v think_v there_o be_v nothing_o in_o religion_n only_o a_o thing_n to_o talk_v of_o in_o the_o pulpit_n and_o serve_v a_o state-design_n for_o these_o minister_n will_v turn_v any_o way_n the_o state_n turn_v but_o by_o their_o give_v up_o their_o live_n and_o expose_v themselves_o and_o family_n to_o outward_a evil_n rather_o than_o they_o will_v conform_v to_o thing_n impose_v not_o agreeable_a as_o they_o apprehend_v to_o the_o gospel_n they_o preach_v they_o have_v convince_v man_n there_o be_v reality_n in_o religion_n and_o give_v a_o check_n to_o atheism_n this_o be_v the_o substance_n and_o to_o be_v sure_a he_o be_v not_o more_o glad_a than_o i_o be_v when_o the_o captain_n tell_v i_o his_o discourse_n how_o zealous_a yet_o some_o have_v be_v to_o bring_v we_o over_o to_o conformity_n the_o many_o book_n publish_v for_o it_o and_o against_o we_o have_v declare_v some_o of_o
which_o have_v come_v to_o my_o hand_n but_o all_o be_v not_o write_v with_o the_o same_o spirit_n as_o they_o come_v to_o hand_n so_o i_o peruse_v they_o to_o see_v if_o i_o can_v find_v any_o thing_n to_o convince_v i_o and_o whereas_o there_o be_v five_o thing_n impose_v upon_o we_o 1._o the_o liturgy_n with_o stint_a form_n of_o prayer_n 2._o mystical_a ceremony_n 3._o subjection_n to_o such_o episcopacy_n 4._o re-ordination_a 5._o renounce_v the_o covenant_n i_o apply_v myself_o to_o the_o three_o first_o question_n chief_o for_o if_o it_o can_v be_v prove_v that_o these_o be_v agreeable_a with_o and_o conformable_a to_o the_o law_n of_o god_n as_o the_o friendly_a debate_n and_o dr._n templer_n will_v persuade_v their_o reader_n then_o re-ordination_a may_v be_v admit_v and_o the_o covenant_n renounce_v as_o to_o the_o two_o first_o quest_n mr._n car_n be_v the_o first_o man_n i_o meet_v with_o that_o argue_v for_o they_o after_o he_o i_o meet_v with_o the_o friendly_a debate_n next_o with_o the_o serious_a and_o compassionate_a enquiry_n etc._n etc._n dr._n goodman_n the_o author_n as_o i_o hear_v nemine_fw-la contradicente_fw-la but_o last_o of_o mr._n falkner_n a_o man_n of_o a_o excellent_a spirit_n who_o i_o shall_v honour_v and_o one_o that_o have_v say_v more_o than_o all_o before_o before_o he_o come_v forth_o i_o have_v draw_v up_o my_o answer_n to_o all_o the_o former_a and_o be_v loath_a to_o throw_v away_o all_o i_o have_v do_v because_o i_o see_v there_o be_v some_o thing_n in_o these_o author_n which_o mr._n falkner_n have_v not_o else_o i_o will_v whole_o have_v attend_v he_o but_o where_o i_o see_v they_o all_o agree_v there_o i_o consider_v they_o conjunct_a where_o one_o have_v what_o the_o other_o have_v not_o there_o several_o as_o to_o the_o three_o quest_n something_o i_o find_v in_o a_o piece_n entitle_v samaritanism_n as_o to_o the_o learned_a dr._n still_v fleet_n by_o throw_v down_o the_o jus_fw-la divinum_fw-la of_o any_o form_n of_o church_n government_n he_o prepare_v the_o way_n for_o our_o subjection_n to_o such_o episcopacy_n if_o his_o principle_n be_v sound_a for_o the_o serious_a and_o compassionate_a enquiry_n i_o find_v little_a in_o that_o piece_n as_o to_o our_o question_n unless_o a_o man_n be_v so_o simple_a to_o take_v fine_a word_n for_o strong_a argument_n and_o rhetoric_n for_o logic_n for_o his_o discourse_n about_o schism_n i_o shall_v consider_v it_o in_o its_o place_n but_o the_o chief_a thing_n i_o observe_v in_o he_o be_v his_o odious_a comparison_n between_o the_o conformist_n and_o nonconformist_n begin_v at_o p._n 21._o and_o continue_v some_o page_n his_o slight_v that_o worthy_a father_n bless_v austin_n the_o contempt_n he_o throw_v upon_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n which_o i_o do_v never_o expect_v from_o the_o pen_n of_o a_o son_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n but_o i_o see_v this_o church_n of_o england_n and_o the_o famon_n church_n of_o england_n be_v not_o the_o same_o i_o need_v not_o say_v any_o thing_n there_o be_v a_o acute_a pen_n have_v give_v he_o so_o full_a and_o solid_a a_o answer_n that_o i_o for_o expect_v to_o read_v his_o reply_n to_o what_o he_o say_v pag._n 3._o that_o the_o nonconformist_n blame_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n viz._n the_o 39_o article_n be_v not_o so_o punctual_a in_o define_v the_o five_o point_n debate_v at_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n etc._n etc._n i_o think_v i_o may_v say_v i_o have_v be_v in_o the_o company_n of_o as_o many_o nonconformist_n as_o that_o author_n but_o i_o have_v not_o hear_v they_o blame_v the_o article_n therefore_o but_o this_o fault_n i_o have_v hear_v find_v and_o do_v find_v that_o we_o be_v command_v to_o affent_fw-la to_o the_o 34_o 35_o &_o 36._o article_n with_o the_o same_o faith_n we_o do_v to_o the_o fundamental_a article_n of_o our_o faith_n and_o salvation_n therein_o contain_v i_o think_v among_o the_o confession_n of_o faith_n these_o 39_o article_n be_v look_v upon_o as_o the_o confession_n of_o the_o faith_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n but_o i_o find_v it_o otherwise_o now_o for_o dr._n stillingfleet_n in_o his_o defence_n of_o bishop_n laud_n p._n 54._o be_v pinch_v by_o the_o jesuit_n who_o in_o this_o point_n be_v not_o answer_v tell_v we_o the_o church_n of_o england_n make_v no_o article_n of_o faith_n but_o such_o as_o have_v the_o testimony_n of_o the_o whole_a christian_a world_n in_o all_o age_n acknowledge_v to_o be_v such_o by_o rome_n itself_o and_o in_o other_o thing_n she_o require_v subscription_n to_o they_o not_o as_o article_n of_o faith_n but_o inferior_a truth_n which_o she_o expect_v a_o submission_n to_o in_o order_n to_o her_o peace_n and_o tranquillity_n afterward_o p_o 82_o &_o 104._o he_o distinguish_v between_o the_o internal_a assent_n of_o the_o mind_n and_o the_o external_a act_n the_o church_n do_v not_o require_v the_o first_o but_o the_o latter_a to_o confirm_v his_o say_n he_o quote_v archbishop_n bramhall_n often_o express_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n as_o to_o her_o 39_o article_n thus_o neither_o do_v the_o church_n of_o england_n define_v any_o of_o these_o question_n as_o necessary_a to_o be_v believe_v either_o necessitate_v medii_fw-la vel_fw-la praecepti_fw-la which_o be_v much_o less_o but_o only_o bind_v her_o son_n for_o peace_n sake_n not_o to_o oppose_v they_o and_o in_o another_o place_n more_o full_o we_o do_v not_o suffer_v any_o man_n to_o reject_v the_o 39_o article_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n at_o his_o pleasure_n neither_o do_v we_o look_v on_o they_o as_o essential_o of_o save_a faith_n or_o legacy_n of_o christ_n and_o his_o apostle_n but_o in_o a_o mean_a as_o pious_a opinion_n fit_v for_o the_o preservation_n of_o unity_n neither_o do_v we_o oblige_v any_o man_n to_o believe_v they_o but_o only_o not_o to_o contradict_v they_o thus_o the_o archbishop_n and_o this_o be_v not_o his_o opinion_n alone_o but_o general_o of_o the_o grandee_n of_o this_o church_n as_o a_o intelligent_a and_o sober_a conformist_n tell_v i_o when_o i_o read_v these_o line_n first_o i_o read_v they_o again_o and_o again_o to_o see_v if_o i_o be_v not_o mistake_v they_o be_v so_o strange_a unto_o i_o at_o the_o first_o read_v when_o i_o see_v i_o be_v not_o mistake_v i_o turn_v to_o the_o beginning_n to_o see_v who_o do_v licence_n it_o and_o be_v amaze_v when_o i_o see_v the_o name_n according_a to_o this_o cerinthus_n pelagius_n arius_n socinus_n turk_n jew_n yea_o vaninus_n may_v all_o subscribe_v the_o article_n and_o be_v son_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n if_o they_o can_v but_o keep_v their_o tongue_n from_o contradict_v they_o though_o they_o do_v not_o believe_v one_o of_o they_o though_o i_o be_o a_o nonconformist_n yet_o i_o be_o such_o a_o friend_n to_o the_o church_n of_o england_n as_o to_o her_o doctrine_n that_o i_o abhor_v these_o line_n and_o charge_v that_o bishop_n bramhall_n with_o do_v wrong_a to_o the_o church_n it_o seem_v when_o other_o church_n abroad_o read_v these_o 39_o article_n as_o the_o confession_n of_o the_o faith_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n and_o suppose_v we_o do_v believe_v they_o to_o be_v true_a they_o be_v gross_o mistake_v it_o may_v be_v we_o believe_v not_o one_o the_o church_n do_v not_o oblige_v her_o son_n to_o it_o but_o only_o not_o to_o contradict_v they_o they_o be_v delude_v the_o church_n reproach_v and_o god_n be_v mock_v several_a thing_n i_o can_v say_v to_o the_o disprove_v of_o this_o sense_n but_o to_o what_o worthy_a dr._n still_v fleet_n have_v say_v i_o shall_v desire_v he_o to_o name_v that_o book_n of_o public_a authority_n to_o warrant_v what_o he_o say_v 1._o the_o king_n declaration_n prefix_v for_o the_o confirmation_n of_o they_o and_o with_o that_o i_o question_v not_o but_o the_o bishop_n do_v agree_v etc._n agree_v the_o declaration_n express_v with_o the_o advice_n of_o so_o many_o of_o our_o bishop_n etc._n etc._n make_v no_o such_o distinction_n of_o superior_a and_o inferior_a truth_n but_o speak_v of_o all_o the_o 39_o article_n joint_o take_v together_o thus_o declare_v the_o article_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n do_v contain_v the_o true_a doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n agreeable_a to_o god_n word_n etc._n etc._n require_v all_o our_o subject_n to_o continue_v in_o the_o vniform_a profession_n thereof_o again_o require_v all_o clergy_n man_n to_o submit_v to_o every_o article_n in_o the_o plain_a and_o full_a meaning_n thereof_o and_o shall_v not_o put_v their_o own_o sense_n and_o comment_n to_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o the_o article_n but_o shall_v take_v it_o in_o the_o literal_a and_o grammatical_a sense_n again_o do_v not_o the_o five_o canon_n say_v whosoever_o shall_v hereafter_o affirm_v that_o