owne person and passing over amongst them such snatches of his as scarcely ruffle the haire I will onely meddle with those parts where he thinketh he biteth deepest First he quarrelleth with me about the title of my booke in that I use the word Ecclesia for a materiall Church or as in contempt he termeth it a * stone-house affirming in his learning that it signifieth onely the congregation which assertion if he could make good would give him a great hand in the cause for that much of his argument following lieth very heavily upon this pin Surely if I guesse right some Dictionary hath deceived him for perhaps his reading reacheth not so far as to resolve him herein but if two thousand authorities be sufficient to defend me withall I speak it without hyperbole I assure my selfe I could produce them Who knoweth not how ordinary a thing it is to have one word signifie both the persons and the place as Civitas the citizens or towne Collegium the society or house Senatus the Senators or Senate house Synagoga the assembly or place of assembly I am sure he will confesse that where it is said He loveth our nation and hath built us a synagogue It is not there meant of the persons he built them a congregation but of the place A Synagogue and Ecclesia signifie both one and the same thing the congregation or place of congregation in which sense we Christians notwithstanding use onely the word Ecclesia for our congregations and houses of prayer for that the Jews had taken up the other word for their Oratories according to an old verse Nobis Ecclesia datur Hebraeis Synagoga And in this manner was the word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} used amongst the Greeks before the Christians borrowed it from them as it appeareth by some of your Lexicons where it is said {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Caetus concilium congregatio c. ponitur etiam pro loco ipso in quem convenitur Lucianus {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} i.e. Ubi curiam in qua consultant undique stravero And that the Church hath ever since used it in the same sort shall by and by appeare when we come to insist more particularly upon this point Faine would I know what himselfe would call one of our stone-Churches in Latine Templum savours of Judaisme and if I should have used a word of the ancient Fathers and said De non temerandis Basilicis Curiacis or Dominicis it may be I should have driven him to his Dictionary and yet left him pusled I thought fanum too prophane a word but he perhaps would think it so much the fitter for a Church and a play-house seem a like to him Another of his quarrels is that I apply the place of Isaiah the Prophet cap. 56. 7. My house shall be called an house of prayer locally to places of prayer whereas he saith it was spoken figuratively of the congregation of the faithfull I exclude not that sense but I assure my selfe our Saviour Christ when he whipt the sellers out of the Temple not out of the congregation applied this Scripture to the very place of prayer and it is questionlesse that the old and late classicke writers so expound it Some quotations here were intended out of ancient and moderne Authors which though I could easily supply yet being loth to adde any thing to the originall copie I leave it to the learned reader to consult the Commentators which is easily done Againe it much offends him that I interpret the words of Saint Paul 1 Cor. 11. 12. Despise ye the Church of God as spoken of the materiall place which after his manner he will also have to be onely understood of the Congregation and had the word ecclesia no other signification then doubtlesse he had obtained the cause But obserue I pray what I have formerly said touching that point and then take into your consideration the words of the Apostle as they lye in that chapter First in the 18. verse he saith {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Quando convenisti in ecclesia For these be the very words and how we shall English them is the question Whether when ye come together in the Congregation that is in the assembly or when ye come together in the Church that is in the place of the assembly I confesse the words indefinitely spoken may beare either interpretation and I condemne neither of them in this place Yet let us see which is more probable or at least whether my trespasse deserves his reprehension The Apostle continuing his speech upon the same subject in the 20. vers. goeth on thus {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} as if he should say convenientibus igitur vobis in eodem leaving {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} in eodem spoken neutrally and as it were to be applied either to the assembly or the place which to put it out of doubt Beza and our English Geneva translation doe adde the word locus a place in a different letter to declare the meaning of the Apostle and read it accordingly When you come together therefore into one place So that now it is determined how the word Ecclesia or Church in the 18. vers. before going is to be expounded and then joyne the words subsequent unto it wherein the Apostle complaineth of the abusing that thing which before he spake of and in reprehension of the abuse committed therein by eating and drinking he saith vers. 22. Have ye not houses to eate and to drink in or despise ye the Church of God Where the very antithesis of houses to eate and drink in with the Church of God doe still pursue the precedent interpretation of Ecclesia for the place of assembly as if distinguishing betweene places and not persons he should have said Your houses are the places to eate and drink in but the Church is the place of prayer otherwise he might perhaps have said Have ye not other meetings to eate and drinke at but despise ye this holy meeting And I thinke it not without speciall providence that the Translators therefore did translate here {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} an ecclesiam Dei contemniti Despise ye the Church of God not despise ye the Congregation of God for the word Chyrche coming of the German word Kirken and that of the Greek word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which signifieth Dominicum or the Lords House was in ancient times as Eusebius and Nicephorus witnesse the common name of materiall Churches doth to this day properly signifie the same and we doe never use it for a particular congregation but either generally for the body or society of the faithfull through a whole kingdome or common wealth or particularly for the very place of prayer onely This foundation being now laid upon the words of the Apostle himselfe let us see how it hath
been since understood by the Fathers and Doctors of the Church as well ancient as moderne Hieroms opinion appeareth already in my booke and Chrysostomes you shall heare anon But this man despiseth the first and therefore I am sure he will account as lightly of the second A Senate of Fathers moves him not an haire a right monothelite he opposeth his owne onely will against them all Yet to satisfie some others whose eares perhaps may be better in tune I will cite one who for humblenesse of spirit integritie of life and admirable learning for the time he lived in hath ever since been venerable throughout the world and no forreigner but our Countreyman Bede who upon these words Numquid domos non habetis an Ecclesiam Dei contemnitis Ecclesia saith he homines sunt de quibus dicitur ut exhiberet sibi gloriosam ecclesiam hoc tamen vocari etiam ipsam domum orationum idem Apostolus testis est vbi ait numquid domos non habetis ad manducandum bibendum an ecclesiam Dei contemnitis hoc quotidianus usus loquendi obtinuit ut in ecclesiam prodire ad ecclesiam confugere non dicatur nisi qui ad locum ipsum parietesque prodierit vel confugerit quibus ecclesiae congregatio continetur But he will say that all this old wine savours of the caske therefore we will spend no more time in broaching of it Taste of the new Peter Martyr upon the place Quando convenitis potest saith he hoc referri ad locum qui unus omnes continebat ita ut notetur corporalis conjunctio c. and then An ecclesiam Dei contemnitis potest accipi Ecclesia saith he pro caetu saecro vel pro loco quo fideles conveniunt c. Si vero de loco intellexeris ut Chrysostomus videtur sentire docemur contaminari locum ex abusu Vnde Augustinus dicebat In Oratorio nemo aliquid agat nisi ad quod factum est vnde nomen recepit ad alia munera obeunda plateas domus habemus And complaining of abusing of Churches he goeth on At nunc templa deambulationibus fabulis omnibus negotiis prophanis toto die patent C. hristus flagello parato ex funiculis ejectis ementibus vendentibus templum Dei repurgavit and goeth still on in this manner much further Marlorat also a common and good friend to our Preachers being well pleased with this exposition and invective of Peter Martyr translateth it verbatim into his owne Commentary upon this place and thereby delivereth it also to the world as his owne opinion But come we now to that part of my booke which puts him most out of patience above all the rest my application of the 83. Psalme to such as destroy Churches and bereave them of their maintenance This he saith fitteth my matter as an Elephants skin doth a gnat yea it hath no cohaerency therewith either figuratively allegoricall or anagogicall To retort his scoffe I might say it seemeth an Elephant of absurdity to the Gnat of his learning but I desire rather to satisfie him Si malitia non mutaverit intellectum then to disgrace him It cannot be denied if there be a correspondency betweene the body of our Church and Common wealth with the body of the Church and Common wealth of the Jewes the same must also hold proportionably amongst the members thereof and in consequence that the passages of state of government of peace warre liberty oppression prosperity adversity and other occurrents either active or passive must hold some aspect and analogy one unto the other And then also that whatsoever is denounced against the enemies of the one trencheth comparatively against the enemies of the other Come then unto the matter The prophet inveigheth against them that seeke to spoile oppresse or disturbe the Church of God seated in India be it openly by war or secretly by some stratagem of wit Doth not this thwart them also that attempt the like in our Church Yes saith he against them of the King of Spaines Armado in 88. and those of the Powder Treason wherein the universall desolation both of the King and Kingdome Church and Common-wealth were not onely projected but attempted by our enemies But shew me will he say what hath the appropriating of a pelting Parsonage or the pulling downe of a stone-house which you call a Church is unto this for the one is an Elephant the other but a Gnatt I answer Eadem est ratio partium quae est totius And out of this reason and analogy our Saviour Christ argueth him that casteth but a lascivious looke to be guilty of the great Commandement non maechaberis as well as him that committed the very heinous act it selfe and then also that whatsoever the Prophet denounceth against them that spoile the Church in generall the same descends upon every particular man that spoileth the same in any particular part as Omne genus praedicatur de omnibus singulis suis speciebus etiam insimis individuis Now that the taking up of these parsonages and defacing of places of publike prayer is a spoile of the Church of God appeareth in this that the meanes and maintenance of the seruice of God and of his ministers is thereby diminished and destroyed which subtraction of maintenance from the minister God in Malachi 3. 8. declareth to be a spoyling of himselfe for that his seruice is thereby hindred and his Church impaired And although this man affirmeth that although there were never a stone-Church or minister in the kingdome yet the Church and service of God might stand well enough for that every mans family is a Church and every master thereof tyed to instruct his servants every father his children yet by example of the Church in the time of the Apostles we ought to have places of publicke prayer and some to instruct these masters and fathers for the husbandman the artisan the day-labourer are not commanded to neglect their vocation and turne preachers as too many now adayes do And though perhaps some such good men out of their devotion would preach now and then to instruct their brethren yet who shall do it ordinarily and where shall the Assembly be entertained for every town hath not a Guild-hall a Sessions-house a Cock-pit or a Play-house fit for such a multitude And though they may as he saith serve God abroad with Paul in a dungeon with Ieremy or on a muckhill with Iob yet heat or cold wet or wind will hinder them at one time or other so that doubtlesse it were very necessary to have a man and a place publickly appointed for the service of God in every Congregation And then since this man cannot perform his office without maintenance and such a place as we speake of the taking of them away puts him from doing his duty deprives his parishioners of their instruction and then by consequence spoyles the Church of
the State Is there not more care had and more strict triall taken of Ministers sincerity and integrity then of secular officers surely we are bound in charity to expect a more reformed Ministery then we have had who will rather say unto a Simoniacall patron as Peter to Simon Magus Thy monie perish with thee Acts 8. 20. then be Levies to such a Simeon in making a base and corrupt contract for a benefice And for that you say that such practises are not to be prevented or removed otherwise then by plucking up the very roote which naturally brancheth it selfe out into these foresaid mischiefes so obstructive and destructive to all religion Whether you meane Tithes to be this roote or the disproportion of Benefices or the right of patronage and protection I cannot tell but sure I am that the Apostle cals covetousnesse the root of all evill and so the root of that evill which sometimes passeth betwixt a Patron and his Chaplaine and may as frequently and with as much injury be sound betwixt some Committee-men and Trustees and the Ministers of their choice as any other But as I am confident that there will be an amendment on the Ministers part by the regular way of the Parliaments reformation according to the directions of ordination of Ministers already printed accordingly practised so will it bee not onely possible but easie for the State to finde out a fit means to prevent prevarication on the part of the Patron but if Tithes be removed from their ancient foundation and left loose to the disposall of Trustees or Committee-men they will be a more ready prey for the covetous into whose hands they may come and from whose hands perhaps they cannot without great difficulty be redeemed Lastly in the close of this Petition the Petitioners shew great care that the Ministers may be freed from the incumbrance of Tithes to serve the Lord without distraction and to give themselves to the Word of God and Prayer and to be onely employed to make ready a people prepared for the Lord And so they may do if they be maintained by Tithes for that means of maintenance gives a man occasion of more and better acquaintance with the particular disposition of his people and it is his part to be diligent to know the state of his flock Prov. 27. 23. And for that trouble which may be thought inconsistent with the Calling of a Minister if his means be sufficient he may have a servant to take it from him and ease him of it I know a Minister whose Benefice was a Vicarage and his Parish so large that it was 11 miles in length and of a proportionable breadth yet did it not put him to the expence of one day in a year to compound for or gather in his dispersed portion Now for the successe and acceptance of the Petition in the Honourable House of Commons to which it was presented if such an innovation had been granted for that County it had been fitter to have been made a Sibboleth for that cauthe or angle of the Kingdome for so the word Kent signifieth as their custome of * Gavelkind then to be made a president or pattern of conformity to other parts of the Kingdome as the News-Book of the same week prescribed that to his Reader But the answer of the worthy Senate was such as may further confirm us in our confidence that they will still continue to be gracious Patrons of the maintenance of Ministers and that they will be more ready to ratifie precedent Statutes and their own Ordinance made in that behalf then to dissettle their tenure which is founded upon them and to make Ministers arbitrary Pensioners to such as may be so far swayed by misprision of judgement or personall dis-affection as to deal most penuriously with those who being truly valued without erroneous mistaking or injurious misliking may both by the eminence of their parts and their faithfulnesse in their places deserve the most ample and most honourable Revenue I will give you their answer in their own words which are most authentick they are these M. Speaker by order of the House of Commons did give the Petitioners the Committee of Kent thanks for their former services and took notice of their good affections to the Publique and did acquaint them That the great businesses of the Kingdome are now instant and pressing upon them and that they will take the Petition into consideration in due time and that in the mean time they take care that Tithes may be paid according to Law But there are some in the Parliament that hold the maintenance of Ministers by Tithes to be Jewish and Popish and therefore they will give countenance to Petitions that are put up against them and doe what they can under such titles to render them offensive to such as are truly religious especially to those who have most power to abolish them 1. It may be there are some such and if there be some such among so many it is neither to be thought strange nor true for such a number of them as may be able to carry the cause against the continuance of Tithes 2. For the tearm Jewish it is mis-applyed against Tithes as it was by the Prelates of late is by the Anabaptists at the present against the Sabbath nor are they more Popish then Jewish For the Papists though their people pay them and their Priests receive them yet they for the most part holding thē to depend meerly upon Ecclesiastical constitution made no scruple of changing them into secular titles or uses as in Impropriations in the hands of Lay-men and many other distributions made out of them severall ways without any respect to the service of the Sanctuary Nor is there any thing in the payment and receiving of Tithes under the state of the Gospel which may probably be suspected to have any savour of Judaisme or Popery save onely the payment of Tenths by the Ministers to the King as hath been lately well observed by Mr L. in his second Book against Mr S. I will set down his words and seriously commend them to the consideration of our religious Reformers they are these in answer to Mr S. his Question Qu. What a are the maintenance of Ministers by Tithes Jewish and Popish undenyably Ans. How Jewish and Popish undeniably As undeniably as the Sabbath was Jewish when the Prelates so called it or the article of the Trinity Popish as b Valentinus Gentilis took it when he disliked the doctrine of the Reformed Churches in that point because they agreed with the Papists therein You are grossely mistaken Sir in the tenure of Tithes for though there be a clamour taken up against them by such as make no scruple either of slander or of sacriledge and some would change the Ministers portion which is their masters wages for his own work and reduce them to voluntary pensions of the people because they
sacred Scripture And on the other side while they approve it though but by a civill assent as to a prudentiall design untill they see more light which they look for in the Answer to their Queres proposed to the Assembly of Divines the Presbyterians who hold it in the highest esteem take none offence that they proceed no farther and professe themselves well satisfied with their civill sanction so one of the learned Commissioners of Scotland hath said in the name of the rest in these words If they shall in a Parliamentary and Legislative way establish that thing which is really and in it self agreeable to the Word of God though they doe not declare it to be the will of Iesus Christ they are satisfied Ob. If there were no purpose to put down Tithes by such as are in Authority how commeth it to passe that the Anabaptists are more bold in London to take up a publique contestation against them then the Presbyterians to make apology for them for did not one Mr B. C. an Anabaptist manage a dispute against Mr W. I. of Chr. and after that undertake another upon the same argument against M. I. Cr. and offered to proceed in it against all opposition which M. Cr. durst not doe upon pretence of a prohibition from authority Ans. 1. It is no strange thing for men who have a bad cause to set a good face on it and to make out with boldnesse and confidence what is wanting in truth of judgement and strength of argument this is observed of the Papists by a judicious Authour whom he sheweth to have been forward in the offers of disputation with iterated and importunate suits for publique audience and judgement And Bellarmine reporteth out of Surius that Io Cochleus a great Zealot for the Papacy offered to dispute with any Lutheran upon perill of his life if he fayled in the proof of his part of the Question 2. For the boldnesse of the Anabaptists at this time and in this Cause and this City there may be divers conjectural reasons in particular given thereof besides the generall already observed as 1. Because they advance in their hopes of a toleration of their Sect and to promote that hope they have been so ready to engage in military service with a designe no doubt to get that liberty by force if they be able which by favour of authority they cannot obtain 2. For this matter of Tithes they might be more forward to oppose their tenure because it is a very popular and plausible argument wherein they might have the good wils of the people that they might prevail and their conceits that they did so though they did not because they would be very apt to beleeve what they vehemently desire may come to passe and it is not to be doubted but a dram of seeming probability will prevail more with most worldlings to spare their purses then an ounce of sound reason to put them to charges 3. They might take some encouragement to dispute against Tithes in this City because there is a project to change the maintenance of the Ministers set on foot by many worthy and well-minded Citizens which yet in truth makes nothing for the Anabaptists opinion who would have Ministers maintained by meer benevolence for the Citizens as they intend a more liberall allowance then the former since they see many of their Churches are destitute of Ministers because their Ministers have been destitute of means so they mean that it shall be certain setled by Authority and not left arbitrary to the courtesie of men 3. For the two disputes the one managed betwixt M. W. I. and M. B. C. the other purposed betwixt M. I. Cr. and the same B. C. but disappointed it makes nothing at all for the taking away of Tithes For as touching the former they who were possessed with prejudice or corrupted with covetousnesse against the truth were much confirmed in the lawfulnesse of such rates as are paid in London under the title of Tithes though indeed they are not Tithes and of such onely was the debate at that time For the intended debate which was to be touching the divine right of Tithes though some godly and prudent men thought it should not have been taken in hand without the warrant of publique authority yet they made no doubt but that the truth of the cause or ability of the man who undertook the defence of it against M. C. would prevail unto victory But for the disappointment it was by the warrant of the Lord Major of the City to them both interdicting the dispute which was both without M. I. Cr. his knowledge and against his good will yet he obeyed the prohibition and when his Antagonist insisted and urged the performance of what was agreed upon notwithstanding the contrary command of the Lord Major his answer was that it was agreeable to the Anabaptists principles to disobey Authority but not according to the principles of Presbyterians And left B. C. should take it for a token of distrust in his cause and make it an occasion of vain-glory either against the cause or person of M. I. Cr. he proposed the printing of M. B. C. his arguments against Tithes and engaged himself to answer them in print and so to refer both to the judgment of al unbyassed Readers which was the best way to give clear and full satisfaction to such as doubt on which side the truth is swayed by the most authentick testimony and soundest reasons It is no part of my task for the present to argue farther for Tithes then may answer the doubt you have proposed to me which is of the Parliaments purpose and proceedings touching the establishing or abolishing of them Animadversions upon the late Pamphlet intituled The Countreys plea against Tithes YEt that you may not be scrupled in conscience as you were in conceit by a new petty Pamphlet against payment of Tithes which perhaps may come to your hands I will give you some animadversions upon it which may also be of use to others as well as to you The title of the Booke is The Countryes plea against Tithes with this addition A Declaration sent to divers eminent Ministers in severall parishes of this Kingdome proving by Gods word and morall reason that Tithes are not due to the Ministers of the Gospell and that the Law for Tithes was a Leviticall Law and to endure no longer then the Leviticall Priesthood did c. Wherein the Authors say much in the outside but make no answerable proof in the inside of the Booke They direct it in the Title page as a Declaration to divers worthy Ministers in the Kingdome and in the beginning of the body of the Book they present it as a joynt Declaration of the people of severall parishes for their opinion concerning Tithes as a Reply to certaine papers from some Ministers pretending to prove Tithes due by authority of Scripture It had been faire dealing