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book_n apostle_n church_n true_a 1,620 5 5.0143 4 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A87226 Confidence encountred: or, A vindication of the lawfulness of preaching without ordination. In answer to a book published by N.E. a friend of Mr. Tho Willes, intituled, The confident questionist questioned. Together with an answer to a letter of Mr. Tho. Willes, published in the said book. By which the lawfulness of preaching without ordination is cleared, and the ordination of the national ministers proved to be a nullity. By Jer. Ives. Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674. 1658 (1658) Wing I1094; Thomason E936_1; ESTC R207711 43,652 64

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the_o reader_n may_v see_v that_o former_a time_n do_v not_o esteem_v both_o ordination_n lawful_a viz_o that_o that_o be_v do_v by_o bishop_n and_o that_o that_o be_v do_v by_o presbyter_n but_o look_v upon_o the_o one_o as_o a_o mere_a nullity_n so_o that_o whatever_o you_o say_v there_o have_v be_v a_o manifest_a contradiction_n and_o that_o the_o difference_n be_v not_o circumstantial_a as_o you_o vain_o tell_v your_o reader_n but_o essential_a for_o not_o only_o the_o father_n but_o counsel_n judge_v ordination_n by_o presbyter_n a_o mere_a nullity_n and_o that_o episcopal_a ordination_n be_v essential_a to_o the_o be_v of_o the_o minister_n office_n so_o that_o the_o thing_n you_o so_o much_o talk_v of_o viz._n that_o both_o these_o ordination_n be_v of_o god_n be_v a_o mere_a fiction_n but_o more_o of_o this_o anon_o quest_n 23_o in_o my_o twenty_o three_o query_n i_o demand_v if_o that_o the_o independent-ordination_a be_v of_o god_n wherein_o be_v mr._n brookes_n to_o be_v condemn_v if_o he_o preach_v according_a to_o the_o independent-ordination_a you_o hereupon_o tell_v your_o old_a tale_n viz_o that_o you_o can_v believe_v by_o what_o i_o have_v urge_v any_o ordination_n to_o be_v according_a to_o rule_n but_o what_o be_v do_v by_o minister_n to_o which_o i_o answer_v that_o this_o be_v no_o part_n of_o my_o business_n in_o the_o question_n propose_v from_o first_o to_o last_o for_o all_o my_o business_n be_v to_o show_v by_o the_o light_n of_o those_o query_n that_o it_o be_v not_o sinful_a to_o preach_v without_o ordination_n and_o that_o mr._n willes_n his_o ordination_n be_v a_o mere_a nullity_n that_o he_o so_o much_o glory_n in_o and_o that_o it_o be_v not_o that_o which_o christ_n approve_v of_o and_o for_o your_o slander_n in_o say_v that_o i_o appear_v for_o independency_n as_o a_o cloak_n for_o anabaptism_n etc._n etc._n do_v you_o not_o blush_v when_o you_o write_v this_o horrid_a untruth_n have_v i_o not_o your_o own_o confession_n 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and_o bid_v i_o prove_v by_o the_o next_o that_o bishop_n can_v not_o ordain_v then_o and_o that_o presbyter_n can_v ordain_v mow_n oh_o shameless_a disputant_n i_o tell_v you_o you_o can_v talk_v of_o logic_n but_o how_o little_a you_o use_v let_v the_o reader_n judge_n my_o main_a design_n in_o propose_v my_o question_n be_v to_o put_v some_o one_o or_o other_o upon_o the_o proof_n of_o that_o which_o be_v so_o frequent_o assert_v viz._n that_o the_o ordination_n by_o bishop_n or_o by_o presbyter_n be_v of_o god_n mean_v that_o which_o be_v practise_v by_o the_o national_a minister_n and_o you_o come_v forth_o and_o bid_v i_o prove_v that_o the_o bishop_n can_v not_o and_o that_o the_o presbyter_n can_v if_o you_o can_v dispute_v no_o better_o you_o shall_v never_o commence_v master_n of_o arts._n sir_n be_v it_o not_o a_o sad_a thing_n for_o you_o to_o tell_v your_o reader_n in_o your_o epistle_n to_o he_o that_o this_o doctrine_n of_o ordination_n that_o be_v now_o contend_v for_o be_v a_o foundation-doctrine_n and_o when_o you_o be_v demand_v a_o proof_n of_o it_o you_o shameful_o shuffle_v and_o bid_v i_o prove_v in_o my_o next_o that_o it_o be_v not_o and_o that_o they_o have_v not_o power_n to_o ordain_v or_o if_o the_o bishop_n and_o presbyter_n do_v not_o ordain_v true_a minister_n therefore_o take_v a_o answer_n i_o say_v they_o do_v not_o and_o charge_v you_o in_o your_o next_o to_o reason_n like_o a_o man_n and_o prove_v they_o do_v quest_n 25_o in_o my_o twenty_o five_o query_n i_o demand_v why_o mr._n willes_n do_v not_o tell_v his_o hearer_n which_o of_o those_o divers_a kind_n of_o ordination_n it_o be_v that_o god_n approve_v of_o this_o be_v the_o sum_n of_o this_o query_n to_o which_o you_o reply_v and_o the_o sum_n of_o all_o you_o say_v be_v that_o if_o i_o have_v hear_v mr._n willes_n in_o all_o his_o sermon_n upon_o this_o subject_a i_o may_v have_v understand_v that_o he_o be_v not_o rigid_a for_o episcopacy_n presbytery_n nor_o independency_n but_o for_o a_o moderation_n etc._n etc._n and_o that_o ordination_n any_o of_o these_o way_n be_v good_a see_v the_o difference_n be_v but_o in_o circumstance_n etc._n etc._n i_o have_v answer_v to_o this_o already_o over_o and_o over_o that_o these_o by_o your_o own_o confession_n must_v all_o of_o they_o be_v prove_v to_o be_v christ_n minister_n before_o their_o ordination_n must_v be_v value_v and_o also_o you_o must_v prove_v that_o christ_n ever_o do_v allow_v of_o ordination_n so_o palpable_o contradictious_a as_o these_o be_v which_o will_v further_o appear_v in_o my_o follow_a answer_n before_o there_o be_v any_o weight_n in_o what_o you_o or_o m._n willes_n have_v say_v to_o this_o question_n however_o if_o mr._n willes_n do_v well_o in_o be_v indifferent_a in_o this_o matter_n how_o evil_o have_v the_o generality_n of_o our_o presbyterian_o spend_v their_o time_n about_o such_o trifle_a circumstance_n while_o the_o more_o weighty_a matter_n have_v be_v neglect_v for_o how_o furious_o have_v they_o oppose_v the_o episcopal_a and_o independent_a government_n and_o governor_n though_o they_o have_v be_v such_o which_o you_o say_v be_v christ_n minister_n and_o that_o the_o difference_n be_v but_o circumstantial_a for_o the_o proof_n of_o this_o i_o shall_v refer_v the_o reader_n to_o mr._n edward_n his_o gangraena_fw-la wherein_o he_o as_o much_o condemn_v ordain_v minister_n in_o the_o independent_a way_n as_o any_o other_o sect_n whatever_o and_o this_o be_v general_o approve_v of_o by_o most_o of_o the_o presbyterian_a race_n as_o appear_v by_o the_o several_a letter_n send_v to_o encourage_v mr._n edward_n which_o he_o have_v print_v in_o his_o book_n which_o he_o say_v he_o receive_v from_o godly_a presbyterian-minister_n nay_o be_v not_o the_o noise_n of_o this_o hot_a difference_n fresh_a in_o the_o ear_n of_o all_o intelligent_a man_n which_o you_o must_v needs_o say_v be_v to_o little_a purpose_n if_o what_o you_o say_v of_o all_o these_o sort_n of_o ordination_n be_v true_a quest_n 26_o i_o further_o demand_v whether_o mr._n willes_n his_o ordination_n be_v from_o the_o line_n of_o succession_n or_o whether_o it_o be_v from_o any_o necessity_n etc._n etc._n and_o you_o ask_v i_o whether_o i_o do_v not_o grant_v that_o a_o true_a succession_n make_v true_a minister_n and_o whether_o there_o be_v not_o a_o case_n of_o necessity_n when_o the_o succession_n in_o break_v off_o and_o whether_o such_o a_o necessity_n do_v not_o make_v true_a minister_n this_o be_v that_o you_o call_v unanswerable_a this_o you_o challenge_v i_o to_o answer_v and_o therefore_o i_o shall_v soon_o dismount_v your_o confidence_n by_o tell_v you_o that_o by_o this_o argument_n i_o be_o a_o true_a minister_n for_o either_o i_o be_o one_o by_o succession_n or_o necessity_n if_o the_o line_n of_o succession_n be_v break_v than_o i_o be_o a_o minister_n by_o necessity_n will_v not_o this_o argument_n justify_v all_o sect_n that_o schism_v from_o rome_n as_o well_o as_o you_o and_o do_v not_o all_o the_o sect_n that_o depart_v from_o rome_n into_o other_o novel_a and_o strange_a opinion_n worse_o than_o those_o they_o leave_v reason_n thus_o that_o they_o either_o have_v some_o man_n which_o be_v in_o religious_a order_n that_o separate_v with_o they_o and_o so_o they_o pretend_v that_o they_o have_v a_o successive_a authority_n or_o else_o they_o will_v tell_v you_o that_o they_o be_v the_o first_o reformer_n and_o therefore_o positive_a law_n must_v give_v place_n to_o necessity_n and_o therefore_o all_o that_o succeed_v from_o they_o be_v a_o true_a ministry_n i_o challenge_v you_o to_o answer_v why_o this_o be_v not_o as_o good_a a_o argument_n to_o prove_v any_o company_n of_o man_n that_o shall_v depart_v from_o rome_n to_o be_v a_o true_a ministry_n as_o well_o as_o any_o that_o you_o plead_v for_o