Selected quad for the lemma: book_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	apostle_n	church_n	true_a	1,620	5	5.0143	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A29739	Two conferences between some of those that are called Separatists & Independents, concerning their different tenents one whereof, was appointed with Mr. Burton and a number of his church, and the other with Mr. John Goodwin and some of his church ... / now published by D.B. ...	Brown, David, fl. 1650-1652.; Chidley, Samuel.; Burton, Mr.; Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1650 (1650)	Wing B5016; ESTC R20226	18,640	27

refused saying he and his Church were a free and Independant body or Corporation and therefore not bound to make account to any other Church or people in the world although never so famous and one of his elders added that the very avaliers or Malignants themselves gave them the Title of Separatists But it being objected to Mr. Burton that he was bound both by precept and example of the immediat Apostles to give a reason of his faith stop the mouthes of gain-sayers yea and approve himself to those that are without far more to those that are within even to be indeed as he professeth himself and the rather in that he is a teacher and guide to others as the first Church of the Gentiles at Antiochia thought it rather an honour then any disparagement to aske resolution of some doubts at the Church of the Jewes who were before them in the faith and order of the Gospel at Jerusalem though some of the Apostles were present at both and the rather we hope you wil do said Mr. Brown because we come to you in love esteeming more of you then hundreds of your breeding I mean at the Universities in regard both of your sufferings and writings far beyond what they have either acted or suffered especially for that publick Sermon you made in the Pillary-Pulpit at Westminster three houres long even resisting unto blood against the evill of the times unto which I was a witnesse and is a motive of my coming to you at this time He answered that his profession and practise were agreeable and that he and his people entered according to the rules prescribed in the Gospel and so walked for ought he knew as many can bear witness and we also may if we wil come and hear him To the which or the like words one of his Elders added that John Baptist sent two of his Disciples to ask our Saviour whether he was the Messias or if they should look for another and our Saviour not answering them directly bids them tell their Master what they heard and saw yea and reckoneth up divers excellent particulars which he onely expressed without either inference or application so his meaning to our apprehension was that if we were not pleased with what they professed or practised concerning the worship of God we might rather come and see and heare and observe their works of conversion and manner of conversation then to reason the matter but we desiring first to conferre some few times to see if we could possibly agree in the truth perceiving their unwillingness by some harsh speeches and carriages did apprehend it would be to small purpose Upon the hearing of these or words to that purpose Mr. Burton said that he had renounced his Ministry and Orders which he had of the Church of England and that he witnessed by his suffering against the Ministry constitution worship Government and high-places of that national Church and that there was no holiness in those places And upon his justifying himself and his people in all things by our Saviours practise and his Apostles it was demanded by Mr. Brown what meaneth then the blearing of those sheep and the lowing of them Oxen daily in our eares if you do and obey all things so well as both Saul the Angell of Laodicea many others spake of themselves what meaneth then I say both your preaching and all your Members hearing in those Parish-Assemblies is it not a halting between two opinions and that ye shew your selves neither to be hot nor could in so doing He answered that our Saviour and his Apostles resorted to the Synagogues of the Jewes and why might not they go as wel to the Parish-Assemblies But saith Mr. Brown you must neither compare the Jewish Church with the English nor yet the Synagogues of the one with the high places of the other but rather the high places of England with those in Judah in that they have both an unlawful dedication and foundation so it appeareth by your practise whatsoever by your words you profess that you are still in Babel absolving the wicked sparing as it were the fatt by your presence and condemning the just in Sion whom ye esteem to be lean by your absence though ye know obedience to be better then sacrifice He and another of his Elders answered that neither did he preach nor they hear in every common Parish-Church but such as they chused above others neither did they hear in those high-places as men were in discharge of their Ministerial function but onely in the exercise of their gifts and not so much for edification as that they might get some matter of accusation against them by hearing them and thereof make some profitable use when they saw a convenient occasion Then it was demanded how he and other Independents could justifie their unequal yoking with those in the Parish-Assemblies whom they judge to be onely of the world and not of the Church as themselves profess to be and though they partake in the word prayer with them in the publick high places yet they are not so thankful as to admit those of the Assemblies to partake with them at their privat administring the seales as if that privat separation at that time or in that place would alter the national Church constitution of them and all the root together in one Whereas they should have no spiritual fellowship at all with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them and witness against them as both Iddo the Prophet did at Bethel and as the Jewes were commanded of God not to go to Bethaven Beersheba Bethel nor Gilgal yea and we find it recorded as a But or Exception even against some of the Kings of Judah for not abolishing those high places whereby not onely evil it self but all the appearances and occasions of evil might be removed so that whatsoever place hath an Idolatrous institution or dedication cannot by any meanes be purged but in altering the form thereof by utter demolition and scarce applying the same to a civil use or to be a common habitation To which was answered that those places might still be well used by Gods people though they have been abused by Heathens and Papists Whereupon occasion was taken by Mr. Brown seeing them so unwilling to confess the truth to clear those two points both of a Church-state and place of meeting expecting a satisfactory answer of them at least for the hearers sake He affirmed that in regard the Temple of Jerusalem was built according to Gods own direction and therefore a holy work alwayes capable to be purged and reduced to the first principle of integrity if ever it should be abused by Idolatry as it was polluted purged and reduced divers times according as the Magistrates and people following their example were disposed to good or evil as upon divine record in the books of the Kings and Chronicles doth appear So the Churches constituted by the immediat

Apostles according to Christs institution consisting all of faithful people according to visibility referring secret things to God and therefore all proceeding from a true and holy original whensoever they should be corrupted either by sinful matter or corrupt practises as in Corinth by that incestuous person or in Galatia by that false Doctrine they were still purgeable and were indeed purged for otherwise a little leaven would have sowred the whole lump And according both to the Temple and Churches purifying Adam the first man being created holy and unblameable if he should fall as he did indeed to sin and Apostacie he was by meanes of his original holiness by creation restored by the second Adam Christ to his former integrity But neither material Temples built by the man of sin and child of pardition nor by the Heathens and dedicated to Idolatry and intitled by the name of Saints departed although otherwise used to the worship of God as the Jewes did sacrifice still in the high-places of Judah after King Manasses conversion and reformation 2 Chron. 33. 17. nor yet assemblies gathered or constituted by humane invention contrary to the patern of the Churches mentioned in the Gospel can be reduced to any purity or integrity because they never had any but must needes still continue in Apostasie and Idolatry as they were made thereof at the first until there be a visitation or dissolution as we have woful experience even yet in these dayes which were pretended to be dayes of reformation and might be yet so indeed if it should please God to honour those whom he hath set in Authority with so excellent worthy and glorious a work beyond all other works as he did that worthy young King Josiah To those grounds thus or to this effect layed Mr. Burton and his congregation in stead of answering opposing applying or any wise clearing themselves in a harsh and angry manner propounded three questions to the Separatists First who built the Synagogues of the Jewes To which he answered In that the Scripture is silent who built the Synagogues except only a Centurion who loved the Iewish Nation built one it doth not become any man to demand the question neither is it necessary to edification or salvatiō but we neither read nor hear of any dedication of them to Idolatry which the Scottish Covenant abjureth as wel as they do the Romish Hierarchy worldly monarchy blasphemous liturgy canonizing of Saints and baptizing of bells And it sufficeth us that the Synagogues were lawful meeting places for the more frequent and convenient practice of the Jewish Religion except what was appropriated to the Temple at certain times of the year or else neither our Saviour nor his Apostles would have countenanced those places with their presence nor King David in the Psalmes complained of the desolation thereof His second Question was Might no meeting-houses be built to the Churches of the Saints now under the Gospel To which the Separatists answered that there both have been and still are many lawful meeting-places built by lawful Authority for the Churches of the Saints under the Gospel for keeping them both from the injury of weather and for their more quiet and peaceable practicing of the Ordinances being sheltered and hidden both from the open and secret enemies of God and his truth besides the dwelling houses of Members and wel-willers and wherein also are Churches both habiting and conversing and all without either dedication consecration or any kind of superstition And his third question was Whether were those which we call high-places and he still comparing to the Synagogues consecrated before in or after they were built The Separatists answered that Mr. Burton himself knew better who built and dedicated those shops of Antichrist wherein he hath lived all his dayes then the Separatists who were meer strangers to such things and unto which both he and his Congregation do still bring all their Tithes Sacrifices Gifts and Oblations but for the hearers sake the Separatists said according as they understood that the full dedication of the house whatsoever be of the ground must be at the accomplishing but in regard both of intention earnest and beginning of action are compleated at the first stone laying as the Bishops usually laid the first stone and made the blessed or rather cursed beginning and so they and the workmen proceeding and ending equally the one with the other by Masses mattens letanies or such like abominations whereby the Popish Clergy stil strengthned with civil Authority do practice their devotions in all their consecrations And in end after Mr. Burton did withdraw to refresh himself he being in exercise with his congregation before this appointed disputation amongst some other speeches had with the Elders and other Members of his Church in his absence they alleadged that if we should look so narrowly and precisely to Antichristian or Heathenish dedication of places why do we offer any service or sacrifice to God at all either in England Scotland France or Ireland for they were all four dedicated to Saints departed such as St. George St. Andrew St. Denis and St. Patrick It was answered that those Nations and all others were created and built by the great CREATOR builder and maker of all things and ordained for his people to live in yea even the wicked as well as the godly all having equal right by the benefit of Creation even the tares as wel as the wheat in the field of the world until the Harvest of the great day but he never ordained any Idolatrous places which are built and dedicated by man or by that man of sin and child of perdition to be worshipped in but hath destinated such works yea and workers also except repentance intervene to destruction and accounteth all kind of Sacrifices upon whatsoever pretence there offered to be like King Jeroboams practise at Dan and Bethel who made Israel to sin even abominations of desolation Some of those Scriptures which concern these matters Hos. 4. 15. Though thou Israel play the harlot yet let not ●udah offend and come not ye unto Gilgal neither go ye up to Bethaven nor swear The Lord liveth Amos 4. 4. 5. Come to Bethel and transgress at Gilgal multiply transgressions and bring your sacrifices every morning and your Tithes after three yeares And offer a Sacrifice of thanks giving with leaven and proclaim and publish the free offerings for this liketh you O ye Children of Israel saith the Lord God 2 Chron. 14. 2. 3 4 5. And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God For he took away the Altars of the strange gods and the high-places he brake down the Images and cut down the Groves And he took away out of all the Cities of Judah the high places and the Images and the Kingdom was quiet before him Levit. 26. 29 30. And ye shall eat the flesh of your Sons and the flesh of your Daughters shall ye