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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41335	Weighty questions discussed I. Whether imposition of hands in separating a person to the work of the ministry be necessry?, II. Whether it be essential to the right constitution of a particular church, that the teaching elders and the members meet alwayes in one place? : whereunto is added a prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers, minister in Essex, long before the beheading King Charles I and Arch-Bishop Laud, foretelling that they should not dye a natural death / by Giles Firmin ...	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; D. R. (Daniel Rogers), 1573-1652.	1692 (1692)	Wing F969; ESTC R31512	41,078	37

Weighty Questions DISCUSSED I. Whether Imposition of Hands in Separating a Person to the Work of the Ministry be Necessary II. Whether it be Essential to the right Constitution of a particular Church that the Teaching Elders and the Members meet alwayes in One Place Whereunto is added A Prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers Minister in Essex long before the Beheading King Charles I. and Arch-Bishop Laud foretelling that they should not dye a Natural Death By GILES FIRMIN Author of the Real Christian What thing soever I Command you observe to do it thou shalt not add thereto nor diminish from it Deut. 13.32 LONDON Printed for the Author 1692. To the READER THat Unity among Christian Brethren is a thing not only beautifull in it self but also a Duty greatly incumbent upon them who profess that blessed Name of Christ none that read the Holy Scripture can be ignorant of it yea a Duty so greatly incumbent that they who do not all they can to promote it provided the Authority of the Scriptures be preserved taking care that they neither profess nor practise any thing in the House of God but what is according to the Holy Scriptures lest that Vnity should be hindered they neither shew that respect to the Command of Christ to us nor to the Prayer he made to his Father for this End as become Christians I thought I might have said At that Holy Table where we being many are one bread 1 Cor. 10.17 I do admit Independents Presbyterians Anabaptists Members of the Church of England that are and walk as Christians tho' we differ in Opinion and here Ecclesiastical Vnion is chiefly seen that both in former times and in these dayes I had been as desirous of this Vnity as some other Men. Glad I was when I heard some Brethren of the Independant and Presbyterial Perswasion in London did attempt it their Names were very dear unto me when I heard who they were that laboured in it tho' I knew none of them more glad I was when about four Years since a Copy of the Agreement was sent me to which my Brethren in the Countrey and my self readily consented We expected the same should have been Published but we find another much different from it In particular in the former Ordination was to be performed with Imposition of Hands but in this the Words are left out and these words put in The Person that is Chosen shall be Duely Ordained not expressing what that Due Ordination is However as it is worded I Consent to this and whatever be the different Sentiments I have from others in several things mentioned and more than are mentioned in the Agreement yet I have willingly Subscribed to it and Profess my self a Vnited Brother with all that are Duely Ordained In a small Treatise which some few Years since I published I took Notice of the Apostolical Churches how they were Constituted I named Nine Churches all that I could find in which were several Elders I find not one Church in the Gospel where was but One Pastor Since that Dr. Owen hath taken Notice of it and hath proved by several Scriptures and Reasons that there ought to be many Elders in every particular Church There were three Teaching Elders besides other Officers in his Church this was like a Gospel Church To have but one Pastor to govern is a Novel Opinion he saith and what he adds is true It is difficult if not impossible on supposition of one Elder only in a Church to preserve the Rule of the Church from being Prelatical or Popular As there ought to be many Elders in one Church so I doubt not but the true Primitive Church-Government was by a President with the Presbytery Not a President over more Churches but only one particular Church Not a President superiour in Power over the Presbytery but only Ordinis gratiâ Revel 2.18 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (a) The President 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (b) The President with the Presbytery So Beza and Raynoldus Anglorum Eruditissimus c. saith Didocla Alta. Damas p. 131. the light of Nature directs to this I would willingly have but one Instance given where this Government was ever prejudicial to the Church More I could say I only mention this that tho' in these Points I may differ from my Brethren besides what are mentioned in the Agreement yet it hinders not my Vnion with them What this Due Ordination is our Brethren as I said have not told us Hence the Discussing of this Question falls not under that Prohibition p. 3. that we must not Dispute those different Sentiments For our Sentiments do all agree it must be Due Ordination which if it be not declared what it is we agree and Subscribe to we know not what Before I Subscribed I asked the Brethren whether the Subscribing to this Agreement did debar us from an amicable discussing the Questions wherein we differ they All Answered No. We were not hindered by it We know the different Sentiments before we Subscribe the Agreement and tho' we Dispute them yet our Vnion holds as well as if we did not dispute them The Apostle exhorts 1 Cor. 1.10 and Phil. 2.2 that we be all of one Mind of one Judgment If we must not labour after it to what purpose is the Exhortation Is not the discussing Controverted Questions in a Christian amicable way seeking Light from God and setting up his Ends not our own one way to come to be of one mind which the Apostle exhorts to I am sure it is and could give good proof of it from experience in the Question now disputed If we may not do this then it is as much as to say There are different Sentiments amongst us and shall be so for still I say the End of the Agreement which is Union is preserved As to the Question of Ruling Elders which have continued in the Virgin Churches of the Vaudois from the Apostles dayes and in the Churches of Bohemia The Apostle mentioning only Bishops and Deacons 1 Tim. 3. troubles me where their Work is laid open with much more satisfaction to me than in any Book I have yet seen in England I shall be thankfull to any Brother who will dispute the Question Pro or Con it shall not hinder Vnion As to this Question about Ordination it is to my Knowledge a great hinderance of our Vnion The thing is so clear in several Texts of Scripture how it should be performed and the Practice of the best if not all the Churches since the Apostles times have been accordingly with Imposition of Hands that I have wondered any Man should scruple it I heard of an Ordination in our County of an illiterate Person and that without Imposition of Hands after it was past hearing of another who is a Scholar to be Ordained by the same Persons I wrote to him to desire the Elders that were to Ordain him to give me the Scriptures which did Warrant

M● Quick's Sermo a● Mr. Faldo 's Fun●ral p. 22. What Mr. Q●ick writes I am both an Eye and Ear-witness to About fitty sour Years since he Preached on Mar. 2.5 in Boston in New-England and did think-the P●●●●-man had Faith because Christ tells him his Sins were forgiven but no Forgiveness without Faith up rose one first forsooth he was not satisfied then another after him then Mr. Cotton our Teacher he took up our Pastor's Case and defended it and ten one after another fell upon him Tho' the Text does not say when Jesus saw his but their Faith it doth not follow but the Palsie-man might be included in the word their and his Faith put them on both the Bearers and Palsie-man had Faith This was too common in that Church though the most publick where Seamen and all Strangers came Sir Henry Vane was the Man that did embolden them when Ministers had done Preaching he would find Questions to put to them though they were Strangers Second Question AReverend Author out of a Book composed as he tells us by several Bishops and great Doctors and approved by Authority in King Henry the Eighth's dayes hath Collected these Propositions First That a Parochial or congregational-Congregational-Church Government is accordint to the Church of England jure Divino Secondly That the Diocesan or National Government is jure Hamano Thirdly That Protestants except some obscure Writer assert Particular Churches to be the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Church-Government Among whom saith he there are these differences 1. The Episcopal and Presbyterian differ from the Congregational about the Extent of particular Churches i. e. the Congregational concludes there must be no more than are capable of Personal Communion The former make a greater extent and give too great advantage to Papacy 2. They differ concerning the Nature of Discipline the Congregational being esteemed an Espouser of a Democracy the Presbyterian of an Aristocracy the Episcopal of Monarchy But Maccovius a Theol. Polem p. 161. Keckerman b Syst Theol. p. 3. mention another Aristo Democratical and Dr. Ames c Medul Theol. p. 1. c. 33. thes 20. seems to be of the same judgment Fourthly All Protestants agree in afferting the Independency of particular Churches Thus far my Author That we may understand one another clearly Suppose we then that all the Christians in England that dwell in their several Parishes were such as deserved the Name of Visible Saints these meet every Lords-Day in their Parish-Church as they call it to Worship God where there is but one Pastor Lecturers and Readers are but in few Parishes in the Countrey nor have they any Power in Church-Government 1. Are these the particular Churches you mean by the words Parochial and Congregational I suppose my Brother means so 2. Is every such particular Church the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Power of the Keys 3. Are all these Independert my Brother hath said it First I desire my Brother would Name one such Church which the Apostles did Constitute but with one Teaching Elder or Paster Secondly How you may perswade the Pastor to admit the People to be Rulers with them I cannot tell but I doubt we should have a Monarclical-Government set up in every Parish in England which you say the Bishops espouse Mr. Norton as acute and Learned Divine as New-England had being at a Meeting of about forty Elders one that was newly come into the Countrey was reading to the Elders what his Judgment was about Church-Government He would have it to be Democratical quoting Morellus several times What have we to do with Mor●llus said Mr. Norton to me if I cannot prove the Government of the Church to be Presbyterial I will give up our Cause Thirdly If all these particular Churches be Independent I fear we should have wild doings Experience have proved it already At this day we see woful effects of it If there be one or two Gentlemen of Purse Piety and Parts that stick close to the Minister and awe the People things may go on quietly else if there be but two Self-conceited pragmatical Fellows as I have known you should soon see what will become of your Parochial-government Fourthly Suppose the Pastor be foully scandalized by some of his Church one or more how shall the Government be carryed on shall he be Plaintiff and Judge in his own Case I have known a Case where a Pastor had great Offence given I propounded the Case to Dr. Owen * And Mr. Faldo whether that Pastor should proceed according to Matth. 18.15 16 he told me by no means when he heard my Reason We shall meet with hard Cases if we come to set to Government indeed Fifthly Suppose the Pastor himself grow scandalous how shall Government be carried on now Sixthly Good Men and Ministers are subject to Passions and Infirmities whence it is not fit the Government of the Church should be Committed to One alone Seventhly To Govern will is a Gist by it self a Man may be a good Preacher but no good Governo●r Eighthly When our Lord sent out the Apostles and the Seventy only to Pre●●● he sent them out by two and two Mar. 6.7 L●k 10.1 Now a single Paster undertakes all Ninthly The Jewish Synagogues bad several Elders to carry on the Government in one of their Synagogues and we but one 〈◊〉 vident O●●li quam O●ul●s It is true our Pastor with his People may truely be called a Church as that Woman who had no Arms but held bee Pen between her Toes and so wrote 〈◊〉 have seen of her Writing 〈◊〉 may well be said to be Animal rationale a r●●io●●● Creature but had God made the W●●an so at first the Woman had not been a 〈…〉 to Man So here is a Company of V●●ible Stints one Pa●●or here is Preaching Prayer Administration of Sacraments and in some Cases Excresse of Discipline so that it is a true Church but not such a Church as the Aposlles sent by Christ did Con●●itute 〈◊〉 to answer all ends of a Church 't is imperfect defective and our Duty is to write after that Copy the Apostles of Christ have set us Dr. Owen hath proved there ought to be many Elders in every Church 2d Part of the Church p. 138. by Scriptures and Reasons I think sufficiently Soon after the Apostles in the Primitive Churches Mr. Clarkson in his Discourse against Diocesan Churches his first Book p. 5.21 hath shown there were more Presbyters in every Church than were necessary In those Virgin Churches in the Valleys of Piedmont which were never desiled with Popery but kept pure from the Apostles dayes where I find Ordination was with Imposition of Hands contrary to our Men I read in their low Condition seven Elders made a Classis they carryed on their Government by joint Councils they had their Consistories and 140 Pastors heretofore in a Synod Whence this one Teaching Elder or a single Pastor in a Church is a

Puritans and gave his Question accordingly Great Expectation there was in the University Mr. Rogers being Fellow of Christs-Colledge came up Opponent the first Argument he used was so strong and he followed it so close that he Crampt the Respondent down fell the Ceremonial Champion the Under-graduates observing it went to Mr. Rogers took him out of his Place and carried him out of the Schools upon their Shoulders when he was in the Schools yard a Fellow of St. Johns comes behind him and gives him a Clap on the Back as he was on their Shoulders with these Words Rogers go home and Hang thy self thou wilt never dye with more Honour This is the Man with whom after he had Preached on his Lecture-day I walked to his House As we were in the way he asked me where the King was I told him He looks upon me and said If that King dyes the ordinary Death of Men then God never spake by me I was amazed to hear such words come from so grave and eminent a Divine O Sir said I to him What do you mean to speak such Words concerning the King I beseech you give me your Reasons why you speak thus He fixed his Eyes upon me and gave me only this Answer Say you no more to me but do you observe what I say to you I was much troubled at these words A few dayes after I met with two of his intimate Acquaintance excellent Christians and told them I was much troubled at what I heard Mr. Rogers speak concerning the King they asked me what he said Note this I told them they Answered me That might very well be for before the Wars began while the Kingdom was in Peace he told us If this King Charles and this Prelate Laud dye the ordinary death of Men then God never spake by me Bishop Laud's Head was off before I came into England I asked them if he spake of any more they said No only those two I thought tho' he were a very heavenly Man and one much with God in Prayer yet I did not take him to be immediately inspired by God as the Prophets were and so the Thoughts went off Afterwards when the High Court of Justice as they called it sate upon the King I did not mind his words for I did not think they had any intention to take away the King's Life When I understood they were in earnest I went to Church on the Fast-day with a purpose to stir up the People to Pray for the King's Life but before I came there one overtakes me upon the Road and told me the King was dead It was the Fast-day on which Mr. Rogers alwayes Preached in the Forenoon In the Afternoon which he never did before but once as I remember he comes to our Church I suppose to observe how I resented the King's Death After I had done Mr. Rogers goes home with me and discoursing about the King's Death he recalled a Passage I had in my Prayer concerning it Thou saidst true said he to me and there this Old Prophet I may call him so leaning upon my Table bemoaned the Death of King Charles being much affected with it Let others judge of this as they please yet this I dare say No Prophet immediately inspir'd by God did with more Confidence speak concerning Thing or Person as he was inspired than Mr. Rogers did confidently foretell that King should not dye the ordinary Death of Men. That he should have any hand in the King's Death no rational Man that knew him would think so 1. For he never came among Parliament or Army Men but an old Man lived retired at home 2. So many Years as I lived by him I do not remember that ever I heard him speak against the King 3. The Words were spoken before the Wars began to others thô after they were begun to me 4. He bemoaned the King's Death 5. Thô he was a very gracious Man yet he was exercised too much with God's Hidings of himself from him to have any Hand in such Acts. What Use to make of this I leave to Wise Men. A Weighty Question DISCUSSED Whether Imposition of Hands in the Separation of a Person to the Work of the Ministry be necessary BEfore I come to the Question give me leave to premise a few things First Tho' Gifts are Essential to a Minister they must be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Tim. 2.2 to whom Timothy must commit the things he had heard c. Yet Gifts do not make a Minister I have known several Gentlemen they were Scholars indeed who as to Gifts were as fit for the Ministry as most Ministers at this day in England yet these worthy Men did not invade the Office of the Ministry as many illiterate inferiour and too many erroneous Mechanicks do now to the disgrace of that Function Had they been grave experienced Christians as I have known some called forth tryed and ordained by Learned Divines to Places suitable I should not have opposed but encouraged and preferred before many who are called Schollars but irreligious and ignorant in Soul-Works Secondly Persons may be instrumental to the Conversion of others and yet not fit for the Ministry I have known such That Parents even Mothers by their godly Education of their Children may be instrumental to the Conversion of their Children Who will deny it A notable instance I could give of a dying Mother speaking to a wicked rebellious Son she had other Children godly God blessed her Words that he became a gracious Man Thirdly The Election of the People does not make a Minister Dr. Owen hath spoken enough to this Lib. 2. p. 83. 85. 139. Vnto Officers of the Church are required saith he Election of the People submitting themselves unto them in the Lord and the solemn setting them apart by Imposition of Hands And after that he writes that Church Order is defective that wants the Symbol of Authoritative Ordination viz. Imposition of Hands And in his Exposition of the Hebr. l. 3. p. 33. Imposition of Hands is a Right of standing use in the Church and that wherein Church Order is much concerned In his Second Book of the Church mentioned before p. 136. he proves there ought to be many Elders in one particular Church This he proves 1st from Scripture 2dly by Reasons one of which he fetches from Imposition of Hands Is saith he there be but one Elder only in a Church upon his Death or Removal this Imposition of Hands must either be left unto the People or be supplyed by the Elders of other Churches or be wholly omitted all which are Irregular He did acknowledge the Ordination he had without Imposition of Hands when he turned Independant was defective Whether Dr. Owen had his hand in drawing up the Savoy Confession I know not But we see upon mature thoughts when he is leaving the World he gives his Judgment according to the Holy Scriptures which should be the only Guide and

Nov●l thing different from the Apostles and the Practices of the best Churches The last time I was with Dr. Owen discoursing with him about Church-Government he was saying to me I would sain know whether the Government of the House of God be likely to be most prevalent being carryed on by one single Pastor or by many Elders met together and Acting in the Name of the Lord I think the Question may be easily Answered and in Order to it I state the Question Quest Whether unto the right Constitution of a particular Gospel-Church it be Necessary that all the Officers and Members of the Church do meet together in one place at one time to Celebrate all the Institutions of Christ The Learned Dr. Owen having changed his Opinion from what it was when he wrote his Countrey Essay for the practice of Church-Government p. 5● when he would have the extream of the Division not above eight or ten Miles so the Center not more than four or five Miles from any part of it c. He now tells us To manisest that Assemblies of the whole Church at once and in one place for the Celebration of Divine Worship is of the Essence of a Church without which it hath no real Being the Lord appointed the Males which were the Circumcised Church should appear in one place three times a Year Exod. 23 14. Deut. 16.16 I did not think that Place being but a Subject and Time an Adjunct should be Essential to a Church yea so as no real Being without them Neither am I satisfied with this Proof For their Meetings three times a Year were to perform three particular Services proper to the Jews and that but once a Year and that day the Law appointed and no other we have no such Appointments under the Gospel The Lord's Supper which answers the Paslover was Celebrated every Lords-Day in the Primitive Churches 2ly Only the Males appeared then We think Women and Children as well as then Children are Members of the Church and ought to appear with the Males to Worship God every Lords-Day 3ly When they were in Jerusalem the Metropolis of the Kingdom how did their eating the Passover in a thousand it may be two thousand several Houses answer our Partaking of the Lords Supper at one Table in one particular Church we should have so many Churches The other Feasts were proper to them Nor could they meet in the Court all at one time to Worship God there being in David's time 1 Chron. 21.5 6. one Million five hundred and seventy thousand men besides the Tribes of Benjamin and L●●i that drew Sword The Dr. tells us 1st Book p. 87. 353. The Members of such a Church may and ought to meet occasionally in distinct Assemblies especialty in times of Persecution for Prayer Preading of the Word mutual Exhortation c. And in another place The constant meeting in one place is not best for Edisication Since he mentions Preaching of the Word I suppose he means their Officers are with them to Preach to them and why not then as well to Administer the Lords Supper as to Preach one Scripture against it I would gladly see To Baptize they do not question There were three Teaching Elders in Dr. Owen's Church the only Church that I know of in England that came up to the Apostolical Pattern these three might meet together with their Members in times of Persecution especially in three distinct Assembles consequently Places to Pray to Preach to Baptize and to Administer the Lords Supper for any thing I know out of God's Word Then may not we meet in distinct Assemblies to such Ends and yet be but one particular Church as his was but for other Ends we may meet in one place So in the Countrey Villages we may have many Elders in one particular Church as he saith there ought to be else I know not how we shall do for Churches in the Countrey But to come to the Question If the whole Church meeting together in one place and at one time be essential to a Church and it hath no real ●eing without it then it must be proved 1. Either from Divine Precept Or 2. From the Examples of the Churches planted by the Apostles Or 3. From forcing Reasons drawn from the Ends of Worship For the first I see none named but Example is the Proof and the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mentioned in the Acts and Corinthians are the Corner-stone of this Building five times pious and learned Amts quotes these words * Vol. 2. p. 755. Dr. Lightsoot hath spoken very clearly to these words against it I grant where there are many Elders and much People dwelling so that they can meet conveniently in one place to carry on all Church-work as was the Case of all the Churches we read of in the Gospel being in Cities there is a particular Church without any question So I yield to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But I wish these Men who are so rigid for one place had but the experience in themselves which I have observ'd in others Precious Christians who had no Coaches nor Horses to carry them but crasie Bodies yet longing for the Ordinances which they might have had if my Notion might prevail within two Stones cast but for this Notion of the One Place they must Travel two Miles they do so but when they come home at Night they are so spent and tired that to Bed they must goe the next day came Complaining to me they had lost the Benefit of the Ordinances they could mind nothing but their Pain Many Christians having infirm Bodies must nor enjoy the Ordinances at all when they might have them the next door Hath God no respect to the Bodies of his People As to the Examples he brings the Question is Whether there were no more Christians in these Cities than could meet in one place if not then 't is no more than I have yielded before for these had many Elders in them to carry on all Church-work which the Dr. faith ought to be and is the thing I stand upon from the Apostolical Constitution of Churches But if his Argument from Examples be so Cogent then he must bring us Examples out of these Cities where there were more Christians than could meet in one place at one time and so were forced to meet in more places and these made more distinct Churches If these Examples can be brought then I yield the Question from Examples But if no such Examples can be brought as I am sure there is not one in all the Gospel then the Argument from Examples falls and is of no force Obj. If they did meet in distinct places they were and must be distinct Churches Answ But his Proof is all from Example and that implies there were such Churches de facto else there could be no Example 2. I deny the Consequence for tho' a Number of Christians did swarm out of the first Church