will grant him to be yours but of those Monkes and these I may say O quantum hic monachus monacho distabat ab illo How much doth your Parsons and other Monkes differ from Beda and those more ancient Friers or Monkes or religious Orders call them as you please Fisher The like may be said of divers others but at this time it may suffice to give this one example to shew that Mr. Rogers naming all those he named spake without Booke or without having at hand or looking into his bookes and that he might as well have named the Pope and Cardinalls and Bishops Priests Monkes and all other religious persons of the present Roman Church to be Protestants as he nameth the said ancient Fathers Rogers And so I will when I come to my Catalogue name Popes Cardinalls Bishops c. for confirmation of my faith whether it be for my Creed which are more principall and proper points or articles of faith or for all those bookes of Scripture which I beleeve or things therein revealed from God Because the testimony of an adversarie for an adversary is most strong and will take away your personall exceptions Thus Paul did cite a Heathen to perswade Heathens yea the inscription of an Altar dedicated to the unknowne God found amongst Heathen Idolls Thus the Fathers Augustine and others in the Primitive Church did cite the Iewes for confirmation of their doctrine and that they did not misaleadge the Prophets and writers of the old Testament Iudaei inimici nostri sunt de chartis inimici convincatur adsarius The Iewes are our enemies out of the bookes of our enemies wee convince our adversaries Augustine upon the 40th Psalme and often in other places Master Fisher or his Second would have exclaimed hereat saying what meanest thou Augustine wilt thou perswade mee that the Iewes are Christians if not why citest thou their bookes nay what meanest thou Paul to cite the Greeke Poets wouldst thou perswade me that they are Christians as if it must follow that they whose testimonie we cite in some things must be our friends in all All the faith of the Protestants is confirmed by the Papists all their explicite all their implicite faith all that belongs to our faith vel per se vel per accidens essentially or accidentally primarie or secundarily as an Article of faith or as an illustration of the same expressed in Scripture and yet the Protestants are no Papists the Papists are no Protestants because the Papists have a new Creed which Protestants deny and I call God to witnesse that I desire to die a thousand deaths rather then to approve it because I assure me it is false in all and in some things blasphemous The Papists have such exercise of Religion worshipping of Images praying to Saints which I abhorre as being Idolatry In discipline also they have such tenents of absolute supreme power over Bishops Kings Lawes oathes as is full of pride sedition usurpation and impiety Now here we differ here I am in the negative and so it doth belong to you to prove the affirmative It is a just law and your owne Master Fisher for these I need not produce testimony seeing I doe not avow maintaine beleeve any such Creed any such practise of Religion any such discipline But for my faith either explicite or implicite all that is revealed by God in his word I may bring my Adversaries to depose for me Paul said unto Agrippa a Iew no Christian Iuvenalis yea a wicked incestuous King if Roman Authors wrong him not incestae dedit hoc Agrippa sorori Yet to this bad man this unconverted Iew Paul saith O King Agrippa beleevest thou the Prophets I know thou beleevest them And may not I say Master Fisher beleeve you the Apostles Creed I know you doe beleeve it I have no other Articles of faith no other primarie propositions of faith againe for the totall object for the secondary propositions of faith contained in Scripture may not I aske you and say Master Fisher doe you beleeve the Bookes of Moses the Psalmes the Prophets and all those Bookes of the Iewish Canon as also all the new Testament I know you doe Master Fisher why then herein is my faith limitted whatsoever doctrine is plainely hence inferred or out of principles of nature I receive as doctrines or truths convincing my understanding but they are no part of my faith After these all doctrines and lawes Ecclesiasticall or civill in the Church or State wherein I live not contradicting the word of God or my conscience I receive with humility May I aske you Master Fisher againe whether the Apostles Creed and those bookes of old and new Testament received by our Church of England had not professors in all ages nay were not professed and beleeved of the Popes and Cardinalls of all ages I know you will not deny but they were so professed why then may not I vouch these Popes and Cardinalls for my selfe as I intend to doe when I come to my Catalogue CHAP. VII Fisher ANd I marvaile why having gone halfe the way as hee saith hee maketh a stop there and doth not with the like audacity goe on in naming other famous Roman Catholikes in every of the other ages Rogers Because Master Fisher offered in like proportion to name and defend Professors of Roman religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent these were your words in the first Paper I received of yours I have gone halfe my journey you not a step in proportion you should have gone as farre as I did especially seeing you would have no other meanes of triall whereas I have and hold other and better meanes to prove my Faith and my Church yet to satisfie others to stop your mouth and to meet you at your owne weapon I undertooke this as a probable forreine humane uncertaine Argument yet such as maketh more for us then for you Fisher Namely such as Gualterus in Latine and the Author of the Appendix to the Antidote in English have set downe for members in the Roman Church Rogers If they have done it sufficiently and effectually it had beene the lesse labour for you Mr. Fisher to have transcribed them but wee may guesse what makes you neither take a Catalogue out of them nor make one of your owne after your example I might transmit you to Illiricus his Catalogus testium veritatis or The mysterie of Babylon vvritten by Sir Phillip Morney the learned Lord of Plessis who have performed this for the reformed Churches farre better then yours have done for your Church Yet when I come to the place where you have cited my Catalogue I will make it out but let mee aske you vvhy instead of naming such as professed the Romane Religion holding nothing contrary to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent now you put members of the Romane Church as if it were the same a member of the
I wrote thus As I did admonish Master Fisher to distinguish betweene Affirmation and Negation so I doe these men and that faith is Affirmation not Negation for no man beleeveth what he denieth Secondly In points of faith I like Master Fishers Rule They that are in the Affirmative must prove Now all that we affirme they affirme as one God three persons all the Creed So that we need not prove what our Adversaries do confesse But in those points in variance between us they are to prove because they are Affirmative we Negative as unwritten Traditions Latine Service Invocation of Saints c. Thus farre in my former Answer This is saying plainly this is not seeming Whereas you inferre that seeing all which is affirmed by Protestants is affirmed by Roman Catholikes and this Affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes I grant the Consequence what is this to the question whether we are of the visible Church or no this which you would inferre doth rather prove us to be a part of the visible Church then any way gaine-say it Thus They which have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome are parts of the visible Church But the Protestants have no other faith then that of the Church of Rome Ergo The Protestants are a part of the visible Church The minor Master Fisher would inferre out of my Grounds as if I would deny it no I grant it and so I hope will he the major then the conclusion must follow We differ from you in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines and Discipline which you terme to be points of faith but we deny They are corruptions of faith Innovations Idolatrous Antichristian Doctrines You would force them upon us as points of faith we refuse them because the Scripture doth not expresse them the Primitve Church did not know them and the greatest part of the Christian Church to this day doth not approve them And your owne writers are distracted into many and divers opinions concerning them Paulus venet l. 1. 2 What Antiquity have you for your halfe Communion Worshipping of Images c. What Universality seeing the Church of Greece of Syria the Georgians Circassians Mengiellians Breitenbachius Purgr c. de Iacobitis Vitrivius Histor orientalis c. 76. the Moscovits and Russians the Christians of Babylon of Assyria Mesopotamia Parthia Media of Cassar Samarcham Charcham Chinchtalis Tanguth Suchir Ergimal Tenduck Caracam Mangi the Iacobits whose Sect is extended and spred abroad in some fourty Kingdomes which I assure my selfe is more large then all the Roman Church do communicate in both kindes worship not Images deny Purgatory and which with you is more then all the rest deny the Popes Supremacy So you have neither Antiquity nor Universality to which I might adde nor Consent among your selves in those additions of yours contained in your new Creed As for one Instance the Councell of Trent hath made the bookes of Machabees Canonicall Melitus Sav. Origenes Athanasius Hilarius Epiphanius Cyrillus Nazianzen Amphiloch Hieronymus Ruffinus which is left out of the Canon by ten Fathers that is I take it by all the Fathers that dyed within 400 yeares after the Incarnation and wrot of that subject Your Nicholaus Lyranus Dionysius Carthusianus Hugo and Thomas de Vio Cardinals whereof this last was one of the most learned that ever the Church of Rome had insomuch that in the Councel of Trent it was said I thinke no man heere doth thinke himselfe so great a Divine but that he might learne of Cajetan All these I say of your side exclude those Bookes from the Canon as we doe yet will you not say they were of another faith then the Church of Rome which you must say if your new Creed and Decrees of Councels be points of faith as you here say And lest you should escape with your wandring discourses and your flying from the question I will presse my argument in forme Whosoever denyeth the new Creed or any Articles thereof the Councell of Trent or any Doctrine thereof is an Hereticke and denyeth the faith But Carthusianus and Thomas de Vio Cajetan both Cardinals deny some Articles of the new Creed and some Doctrines of the Councell of Trent Ergo Lyra Carthusianus and Thomas de Vio are Hereticks and deny the faith I am sure you will hold this Conclusion to be false if so then one of the premisses must be false not the minor ergo the major which is your Tenet whereby you would proue us to be Hereticks and to deny the faith Fisher Out of which it will further follow that those English Protestants who shall hold some of the 39 Articles and deny the rest may be said to have no faith different from those which subscribe to all the 39 Articles Rogers I grant it doth follow so that those same Articles which they deny be not those Articles which concerne the Unity of the Godhead the Trinitie of persons and all those things which are contained in the Creed I say therefore they differ in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines or Discipline not in faith so they receive the Scriptures and Apostles Creed Fisher Which last consquence if Master Rogers grant I aske why the bookes of Canons doth excommunicate ipso facto such halfe Protestants Rogers They may be excomunicated for gaine saying Ecclesiasticall Doctrines or the established Discipline of the Church they may be excommunicated as erroneous Shismaticks Fisher Why doe their Bishops imprison them as Hereticks and not account them members of their Church Rogers Andrewes in his Defence of the Apologie for the other Bilson in his perpetuall government of the Church Carleton against the Appeal They must be imprisoned as Schismaticks Our Bishops doe all professe that there are no Puritane Doctrines that the difference is onely in matter of Discipline they count them neither Hereticks nor wholly excluded out of the Church here you have supposed two falshoods in two lines those learned Protestants from beyond the Seas whose Discipline doth somewhat vary from ours doe testifie that the purity of Doctrine doth flourish in England purely and sincerely So Beza from Geneva that by Queeene Elizabeths comming to the Crowne God againe had restored his Doctrine and true worship So Zanchius that the whole compasse of the world hath never seene any thing more to be wished then is her Government So Daneus Fisher And why not Roman Catholicks by as good or better right account Protestants who deny so many points defined in both ancient and recent Generall Councels to be Hereticks Excommunicated and no members of the Ancient and present Catholick Church Rogers If we did the one you may doe the other but I have shewed the falshood of your supposition that we count them Hereticks who discent from us in any of our Articles they may be erroneous in a lesser nature then Heresie turbulent in those errours they may be Schismaticks
perfectly of the Church for they are as living members in the body Againe some are of the soule but not of the body as those which are instructed to beleeve the principles of Christian Religion but are not yet baptized or those who are excommunicated if they retaine faith and love which may bee done Lastly some are of the body but not of the soule as those who have no inward vertue but for some temporall ends do professe the faith and partake of the Sacraments under the government of Pastors and such are as the haire or nailes or ill humors in mans body Thus farre Saint Augustine This last doth make a man to bee a part of the visible Church Bellar. de Eccl. l. 3 c 2. As then in man there is the inner and the outward man the soule and the body the one is visible the other is not visible So in the Church there is a mysticall Church which is not seene to bodily eyes and an outward profession of Christ and receiving of Sacraments which makes the visible Church we can see the men we can see them baptized comming to the Temple receiving the Sacraments we can heare them make confession of the Christian faith call upon God the Father by Christ all these things are sensible and most of them visible as the men their meeting their receiving of the Sacraments the lifting up of their hands in prayer the opening of their lips in confession of their faith in prayer and thankesgiving Where there is a society of men thus professing the faith of Christ and partaking of his Sacraments under the government of Pastors there is a visible Christian Church These doe communicate in the same Sacraments in the same confession of faith and that maketh them to be of one Church of the visible Church though they be never so far remote one from another and unknowne one to another in the same essence of faith the principall and necessary articles whereof are contained in the Apostles Creed in the same essentiall forme of baptisme whereby men are admitted into the visible Church we communicate with the Roman Church and so doe all Christian Churches in the world that is in all that which must necessarily be professed and done to make a Church Now whereas my adversarie saith that those Popes Cardinalls Bishops others named by Gualterus and the Author of the Appendix to the Antidote did communicate with the Church of Rome that will not serve his turne for so doe we communicate with them in many things in the Apostles Creed in the principall Sacraments in the Iewish Canon of the old Testament and in all the new This doth make them and us a Church in these we have not left them but in their new Creed in their bookes added to the ancient Canon of the Bible in their unwritten Traditions in other their new false hereticall doctrines in their superstitious practise of Religion and Monarchicall discipline tyrannizing over the families of Christ These we hold to be the corruption sicknesse leprosie of their Church there we have left viz their Papacie not their Church we left them as an unsound Church not as a Church Thus the Primitive Church did deale with the Heathens Iewes and Hereticks as Saint Augustine writeth to the Donatists they retained what was good amongst them These Donatists held their owne society alone to bee the Church and excluded all others their owne baptisme to be true effectuall and no other so that they rebaptized those which were baptized by others in defence of their allegation objected thus Vsqueadeo meum est quod à me unicum datum est nec ab ipsis sacrilegis iteretur Sacrilegus non est qui unicum baptismum non quod tuum est sed quod Christi iterare non audet Etenim Christi est unica in baptismate consecratio Tua est unici baptismatis iteratio Corrigo in te quod tuum est agnosco quod Christi est hoc enim justum est ut cum mala hominum reprobamus quaecunque in illis bona Dei reperimus approbamus Hoc inquam justum est ut etiam in sacrilego non violem quod verum invenio Sacramentum nec sic emendem Sacrilegum ut in eo perpetrem sacrilegium Nam sic sunt isti mali in baptismo bono quemadmodum sunt Iudaei mali in lege bona Itaque ut illi per ipsam legem judicabuntur quam malitia sua malā fecerunt Ita isti per ipsum baptismum judicabuntur quod bonum mali tenuerunt Ergo quemadmodum Iudaeus cū ad nos venerit ut Christianus fiat non in eo destruimus bona Dei sed mala ipsius Nam quod errat non credendo quod Christus jam venerit natusque passus sit resurrexerit hoc emendamus eaque infidelitate destituta fidem qua haec creduntur instruimus Item quod errant umbris veterum Sacramentorum inhaerendo dissuademus jamque venisse tempus quo haec auferenda atque mutanda Propheta praedixerunt demonstramus Quod verò unum Deum colendum credit qui fecit Caelum terram quod omnia Idola Sacrilegia Gentium detestatur quod futurum expectat judicium quod vitam sperat aeternam quod de carnis resurrectione non dubitat laudamus approbamus agnoscimus sicut credebat credenda sicut tenebat tenenda firmamus Ita etiam cum ad nos venerit Schismaticus vel haereticus ut Catholicus fiat schisma ejus haeresim dissuadendo destruendo rescindimus Sacramenta verò Christiana si eadē in illo invenimus quicquid aliud veri tenet absit ut violemus absit ut si simel danda norimus iteremus ne dum vitia humana curamus divina medicamenta damnemus aut quaerendo sanare vulneratum quod non est hominem saucium ubi sanus est vulneremus August Tom 7. l. de un baptis cont Petil. cap. 2. 3. Possunt esse populi boni ubi fuerint Episcopi mali sicut potuit esse populus malus ubi fuit Moses Princeps Rector bonus li. 2. c. E. Parmen c. 4. In bonis quibus talia displicent semper manet mansit manebit Ecclesia l. 3. Nihl aliud est consentire male facientibus nisi mala facta eorum approbare atque laudare l. 1. Nemo conjungitur cum infidelibus nisi qui facit peccatum Paganorum vel talia facientibus favet nec quisquam fit particeps iniquitatis nisi qui iniqua vel agit vel approbat l. 2. c. 17. Vbi Moses Aaron ibi murmuratores sacrilegi ubi Caiphas caeteri tales ibi Zacharias Simeon caeteri boni ubi Saul ibi David ubi Ieremias ubi Isaias ubi Daniel ubi Ezechiel ibi Sacerdotes mali populi mali cap. 7. Et sicut grana inter paleas non videntur ita pie viventes inter iniquorum turbas non facile apparent My Baptisme is such and so
that great Iudgement whether they did obey the Bishop of Rome or no and condemned for not obeying him If they answer Wee acknowledged our sinnes and repented of them wee believed in thy name Iesu wee were baptized in that Faith wee received thy body and blood wee endured many indignities reproaches impositions nay our children are taken from us if there be any more hopefull then other and all because wee are Christians Will Christ answer them Away from mee for you did not acknowledge my Vicar generall my Bishop of Rome to have authoritie over all Churches over all Patriarches yea Kings and Emperors in ordine ad Spiritualia I know you not you are not of the Church Irenaeus l. 3. c. 12. May not the Aethiopians reply Wee have received the Faith first by the relation of our a Act. 8.27 owne Countreymen who were baptized by Phillip afterward by the Evangelist b Socrat. hist l. 1. c. 15. Saint Matthew Wee received it by the preaching of Bartholemew say the c Chrysost Hom. 22. de Apostolis Armenians Wee have received it by the preaching of Andrew say the d Orig. l. 3. in Genesin Scythians We from thy beloved Disciple e Euseb hist l. 3. c. 1. Saint Iohn say the Churches of the lesser f Euseb hist l. 3. c. 1. Asia with us he lived with us he died to us he vouchsafed to speake in his Revelations we received it also from thy Apostle g Paul epist ad Ephes ad Galat. Paul who preached amongst us and wrote divers Epistles unto us From him wee received thy Faith say the Graecians Macedonians h Paul ep ad Roman cap. 15 v. 19 26. Illyrians To us hee hath vouchsafed to write say the Thessalonians Corinthians Philippians i Pet. 1. ep cap. 1. v. 1. Peter preached in our Countries and in our neighbour Countries of Anatolia as in k Euseb hist l. 3. c. c. 1. Pontus Galatia Bythinia Cappadocia Asia it was to strangers scattered amongst us of his owne Nation to the l Chrys Hom. de duodecem Apostolis The Church of Ephesus instructed by Paul and afterwards continued by S. Iohn Iren. lib 3. c. 3. The Gospel of the uncircumcissiō was committed unto me as the Gospel of Circumcission was unto Peter Gal. 2.7 dispersed Iewes and not to us of the Gentiles Wee of the higher a Theodor. de veri Evang. c. 9. Osorius de rebus Emanuelis Socrat. l. 1. c. 15. Asia received it from Phillip wee from Simon Zelotes say the inhabitants of Mesopotamia wee of Parthia Persia Media Brachmania India and other neighbour Nations from Thomas We Indians also received it from Bartholomew who left with us the Gospel of thy blessed Apostle and Evangelist Saint Matthew wee saw not Peter wee heard not of the b I assure you that I found at Ierusalem in the holy Passion weeke more then 4000 Christians of severall remote nations hereafter mentioned my selfe being sole amongst them with an Almaine of the Roman Church they doe acknowledge neither Pope nor Cardinall King or Emperor of ours See more p. 42. The Christians of Iava Taprobane Caephala Quinsay and other remote Countries in the Orientall India divers of which as the Aethiopians Indians Armenians Graecians c. were converted in the Apostles times and are from these parts so far distant as that the Latine Church was for many precedent Ages unknowne to sundry of them till the later times Brearley Tract 3. §. 2. Sub. 1. in his booke of the Masse pag. 288. Pope we knew not Rome neither for ought wee know were wee knowne unto thy Latine Church and if it be necessary for all men that will be saved to know and acknowledge the Pope of Rome our Teachers have deceived us the Gospel which wee have received is unperfect the Scriptures are defective which make no mention of the Bishop of Rome nay thy Word hath misled us saying There is no other name under heaven given to men in whom and through whom they attaine health and salvation save only in thy name O Christ Iesu We received not our Religion from Rome wee were not converted by any sent from the Latin Church We received it from thy Apostles say the c Theodor. de curat Grae ca. affect l 9. Tyberines Hyrcanians Caspinians Scythians Massagets Sarmatians the Serae Cimicrians Germans Britaines the Lagi Samni Anasgi utque semel dicatur omne hominum genus all mankind may say we received thy Faith from the Apostles sundry of which were unknowne to the Latine Church Yet my d In the Reply to Doctor White and Doctor Fratley the Author in the second Chapter saith That out of the Roman Church no salvation this is the Title and drift of divers leaves together Adversary here if he sate in the judgement seat would doe as Bellarmine Valenza Binnius and others have done condemne them all to Hell with an Away with you I know you not if you know not the Roman Church if you live not in unitie with that And no marvell he is so peremptory seeing Pope Boniface hath decreed it thus Declaramus dicimus definimus pronunciamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis omni humanae creaturae subesse Romano Pontifici De Major Wee declare say determine pronounce that it is altogether necessary to salvation that every man that will be saved bee obedient to the Bishop of Rome These are the Lawes of Rome this the doctrine of your Schooles this the charitie of your Religion to condemne ten times as many Christians to hell as ever were of your Church for not being obedient to him they never knew they never heard of Arist. Tep l. 6. c. 1. n. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And because we are speaking of Definitions let me request you to remember the lawes of a Definition as first that it must contain all that is defined it must belong to every thing which is comprized under that which is defined 2. It must belong to nothing else but that which is truly and properly stiled by the name of that which is defined as the definition of man must belong to all men to nothing else but man as every man is Animal rationale and nothing but man the reason thereof is this that a definition must shew and expresse distinctly the proper essence of that which is defined 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Artic 2. Poster cap. 3. If proper then it can belong to nothing else if essence it must belong to all for nothing can be without his owne being and essence And for the same reason it is inseparable immutable and must perpetually be verified of that to which it once doth belong as a true definition which sheweth the essence or being of a thing A definition doth make us to know what each thing it because nothing can bee separated from his owne being unlesse it cease to bee at all If then Bellarmines definition
which is denounced against those who adde unto the Word of God And will you say that wee professe any Faith besides that which is contained in Scriptures This is your easie answering Master Fisher to denie that wee professe that which we doe professe in all our Bookes in all our Schooles in all our Pulpits in all our Discourses of this subject viz. What wee ought to believe You will as easily answer the other Argument let us see the Argument and your answer 2. Arg. A Signis thus The Faith which hath testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent of Fathers and other Writers in all ages had visible Professors in all ages But the Faith of Protestants hath these testimonies Ergo The Faith of Protestants had visible Professors in all Ages To this you answer by denying the Minor or second Proposition thus The Protestant Faith hath not testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent Ad partes Master Fisher which Article of the Apostles Creed doth want the testimonie of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent which of those Bookes received for Canonical of the Church of England and named of mee a little before want these testimonies of Antiquitie Universalitie and consent Is it Genesis or Exodus or any other Booke of Moses Is it the Psalmes or Proverbs or Histories that want this testimony Or is it Esay or Ieremie or Ezekiel or Daniel or any other of the Prophets Is it Matthew or any other of the Evangelists or Apostles name the man name the Church name the time if you cannot then say your easie answering is no answer 3. Arg. Ab Exemplis thus Names of such as professed the Protestants faith in all ages Christ and his Apostles St. Iohn Ignatius Polycarpus Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Clemens Alex Origen Cyprian Lactantius Athanasius Cyrill Hierosol Ambrozius Nyssenus Hieronimus Ruffinus Chrysostomus Augustinus Cyrillus Alex Theodoretus Socrates Sozomenus Fulgentius Evagrius Gregorius primus Beda Damascenus Alcuinus Thus having gone halfe way I conclude with this Argument The Protestant faith being that which is contained in Scriptures was received and taught by all the Orthodox Fathers But the Fathers above named be all Orthodox Ergo Now what answer doe you Master Fisher give to this Argument of mine not a word unlesse to denie the conclusion be to answer an Argument I hope you will not acknowledge your selfe to be so ignorant in Logicke you know the Rule Ex veris possit nil nisi vera sequi If my Premises be true my Argument in forme as you neither deny my Premises nor except against the forme of my Argument the conclusion must follow must be true for out of true Premises can follow no conclusion but what is true Arist De Sophist Elench c. 17 18 c. this is not easie answering but not answering Looke into Aristotle concerning the duty of a Respondent and the divers kinds of answering You not being able to answer this Argument say I must bring out some or other good Authors who doe clearly shew these before named to hold all or some principall points of Protestant Faith differing from the Catholicke Roman Faith I have proved what I undertooke and what is sufficient by such Arguments as you cannot answer you dare not examine but flye from them knowing their strength and your weaknesse But you will have me prove them by Authors is any humane authoritie of a private man better then reason And what Authors would you have will not their owne profession and their owne workes together with the esteeme and reputation of Orthodox Writers which they have had in all Ages serve the turne to shew what their Faith was doe any men know what they did believe or what they did professe better then themselves As for your Roman Catholicke Faith I have alreadie shewed how fond how vaine how simple a conjunction you make of them that no child ordinarily of seven yeares of age understanding the termes but will wonder with what face you can say That a part of a Church is a whole Church that a part of a Kingdome is a whole Kingdome that a part of mans Body is the whole Body You say also that I must prove out of good Authors that they doe not condemne any of the 39 Protestant Articles Here you not being able to answer as I thinke doe dissemble conceale and passe by what I did put downe in answer to this demand of yours viz. 1. It is no prejudice to our Faith if the same Authors doe differ from us in other opinions not concerning Faith as long as they maintaine our Faith 2. The Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all Ages who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Councell This you can conceale and passe over knowing that you are not able to performe it for your Councell of Trent I undertooke for matters of Faith not for secondarie Doctrines to produce Authors in all Ages professing our Faith though they might dissent from us in other Doctrines of an inferior nature not revealed in Scripture nor belonging to the foundation and Principles of Christian Religion As for the sufficiencie of my Arguments I have already made it good for any thing that you have yet spoken against them Let us now see what you say further against them CHAP. XVI Fisher WHo doth not also see that the same Arguments may be more strongly retorted against Protestants by onely altering the word Protestant into Catholick in regard our Catholick Doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers A most bold falshood even by the confession of divers learned Protestants themselves Rogers All the proofe that this man will bring is for ought I can see or thus Who doth not see I doe not see If it be granted c. as I have observed before for if these Arguments might be retorted against the Protestants by changing of one word why did hee not performe the same I must doe it for him Major The Faith contained in the Scriptures had visible Professors in all Ages Minor But the Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures Conclusion Ergo The Catholicke Faith had visible Professors in all Ages Here I have onely changed the word Protestant into Catholicke and what one word is here against Protestants who doe hold and professe no other Faith then what is contained in Scriptures as I have already shewed out of our sixt Article wee grant this whole Argument Major Minor and Conclusion which if you doe grant I will take the Minor and inferre a dangerous Conclusion against the Church of Rome thus The Catholicke Faith is contained in the Scriptures The Roman Faith is not contained in the Scriptures Ergo The Roman Faith is not the Catholicke Faith If you denie this Minor as it seemes by those words of yours before alleadged you will denie viz. Our Catholick Doctrine may be and is ordinarily proved by plaine testimonies
docuêre Patres 146. Baron An. 905. n. 4. Herveus Remensis who first converted the Normans to the Faith and held a Synod in which they said That the Rock whereon Christ promised to build his Church was the confession of Peter At this Councell were present also Rothomagensis Archiepiscopus Rodolphus Landunensis Episcopus Trodoardus Hist Rem l. 4. c. 13. Baron An. 930. Erlimus Bellovacensis Episcopus aliique multi Whose names are subscribed This Herveus held many Synods Vnus Hambargensis Archiepiscopus qui convertit Danos Glaber temporis ejus auctor Hist l. 2. c. 11 12. Baron An. 100 n. 4. Tom. 10. Lib. de officiis Missae edito Parisiis Anno 1610. Bellarm. de Script Ab Anno 1000 ad 1100. Lebuinus Episcopus in Gallis qui populum suum ex parte deceptum Catholicae plenius restituit fidei Anno 1000. Baronius n. 3. Petrus Archiepiscopus Ravennas qui Vilgardum Haereticum docentem fidei sacrae contraria damnavit Berno Augiensis Abbas qui testatur post Evangelium in missa recitari Symbolum Constantinopolitanum à Concilio Toletano statutum id omni die Dominico secundum morem Orientalium Ecclesiarum decantari In hoc Authore miror Bellarmini oscitantiam ne quid gravius dicam qui ita scripsit Ex quo libro cap. 2. viz. Baronius de officio Missae discimus hoc primum tempore coepisse in Rom. Ecclesia cani ad Missam Symbolum fidei Cum contrarium doceat Walafridus Strabo lib. de rebus Ecclesiasticis cap. 22. Qui vixit aliquot seculis ante Bernonem obiit enim ut placet Hiltorpio Anno 849. Berno autem Anno 1048. Et ipse ordo Romanus idem doceat apud Hiltorpium col 4. Miror inquam quod non distinxerit ambiguitatem vocis Romanae quae pro Latina Ecclesia saepe usurpatur cum hic intra urbem suburbicanas Ecclesias vel saltem intra Italiae fines claudatur ut apparet ex Bernone Micrologus whose Bookes of Ecclesiasticall Observations Pamelius doth preferre before all others that wrote upon that subject as Amalarius Walafridus doth witnesse Cap. 46. that Creed in Vnum c. viz. The Creed cōmonly reputed the Nicene Creed Iuxta Canones in omni Dominica debet cantari in omnibus c. according to the Canons is to be read upon every Lords day In his 19 chapter hee is very full for communicating in both kinds citing Ordo Romanus and Iulius Papa 36. Gelasius Papa 51. very peremptorie in this kind This Author lived about the yeare 1080 saith Pamelius in his Preface before the worke Ivo Carnotensis Episcopus who speaketh of our Sacraments and of the Apostles Creed professed in Baptisme Serm. de Sacramentis And in his Sermon De Convenientia veteris novi sacrificii he briefly proveth all the chiefe heads of Christian Faith who in the later end of that Sermon speaketh of communicating in both kinds And in his Sermon De coena Domini hee saith Let none of the Faithfull this day absent himselfe Dwell you in Christ that Christ may dwell in you and you be worthy Receivers of his Body and Blood Hee in his Sermon In Cathedra Sancti Petri saith That that Feast was in memoriall of that day wherein Peter at Antioch was made Bishop and Pastor of Gods people And that hee was called Peter because of the confession of his Faith Ab Anno 1100 ad 1200. Sanctus Bernardus Rupertus Tutiensis Algerus who denieth your halfe Communion citing those words of Pascasius under the name of Saint Augustine Nec caro sine sanguine Lib. 2. de corpor sang Christ cap. 8. Bellarm. nec sanguis sine carne ritè communicatur Rich. de Sancto Victore who refuseth your Canon of the Bible Hugo de Sancto Victore who denieth Penance to be a Sacrament Ab Anno 1200 ad 1300. Alexander of Hales who denieth the Sacrament of Confirmation as a Sacrament to be instituted by Christ parte 4. q. 5. membro 2. Hugo Cardinalis Bonaventura Both which denie your Canon of the Bible Hugo in his Prologue before Ecclesiasticus Bonaventura pr. parte q. 89. Art 8. ad 2. Gulielmus Episcopus Parisiensis Ab Anno 1300 ad 1400. Lib. 4. Sent. dist 26. Durandus hee denies Matrimonie to be a Sacrament Nicholaus Lyranus hee holdeth the same Canon of the Bible that wee doe and denieth yours Franciscus Mayron Qui inter alia scripsit de Articulis fidei Simon de Cassia Qui scripsit expositionem Symboli Apostolici Ab Anno 1400 ad 1500. Dionysius Carthusianus who denies your Canon of the Bible Prologo in Ecclesiasticum Gregorius Heymburgensis who wrote against the Popes Supremacie Panormitanus Picus Mirandula Hist Trid. Concilii Sleidanus in Commentariis Thomas Cajetanus who had conference with Luther All these are Latine Authors acknowledged by you of the Roman Church for Orthodox at least two of them in every Age which were sufficient but I can make it good for all out of Bellarmine Baronius Surius Hiltorpius or Synods allowed by your Church Thus therefore I argue Major All orthodox or right believing Christians doe receive and professe the Apostles Creed the Bookes of old and new Testament received for Canonicall by the Fathers of the first 400 yeares together with the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper which the Protestants professe Minor But these Authors aforenamed in my Catalogue from the yeare 800 to the yeare 1500 are all orthodox or right believing Ergo Conclusio All these Authors aforenamed in my Catalogue from the yeare 800 to the yeare 1500 doe receive and professe the Apostles Creed the said Bookes of the old and new Testament the two Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper which the Protestants receive and professe Or thus Major Whosoever receive our whole Faith and all our Sacraments are of our Church and wee of theirs Minor But all these Authors receive our whole Faith and all our Sacraments Ergo Conclusio All these Authors are of our Church and wee of theirs But you having another Faith a new Creed new Articles cannot prove these or any other to have held that your new Faith entirely and I have shewed most of these Authors expresly to denie some one some another Article of your new Creed so that a man may be orthodox and yet denie your Faith your Creed No man can be saved that denieth the true Faith But many are saved who denie the Roman Faith Ergo The Roman Faith is not the true Faith The Major I know you will not denie The Minor you must grant or your Saints and greatest Writers were damned for want of your Faith A second Catalogue viz. of Greeke Authors who being of the Greeke Church did professe our Scriptures Faith Sacraments and Councels but doe reject divers points of the Roman Faith and all the Councels of the Latines since the yeare 800 as appeareth by their profession in the Councell at
it is the very same essentially though not accidentally still a body and still the same body though sometimes more healthy then other and in some parts more sound then other Now Master Fisher to what end is your great discourse of Anabaptists seeing I grant him to be of the Church If hee be such a one as you suppose him who agreeth with mee in all things else viz. in the Scripture in the Creed in the Sacraments in the essence of the Sacraments in their matter and forme in their force and efficacie onely differs from mee in the circumstance of time namely when Baptisme is to be conferred and bestowed upon Children of Christians whether before or after they are come to yeares of discretion CHAP. XXI Fisher AND fifthly That having distinguished Faith as Master Rogers doth into Doctrines fundamentall and necessary and Doctrines not fundamentall but accessory or not necessary hee may be yet further allowed to reject all Church authoritie and not to be satisfied with what is taught by any Church ours or his owne as Master Rogers confesseth hee is unsatisfied and consequently being left to his owne libertie may apply this distinction as hee shall please accounting onely that to be necessary which hee listeth so to account I wish I say that such an Anabaptist were imagined and that Master Rogers were to be his opponent That it might be seene whether this Anabaptist could not as well by these aforesaid Rules Definitions and Distinctions affirme prove and defend his Faith and Church to have beene alwaies visible against Master Rogers as Master Rogers doth or can by his Rules Definitions and Distinctions affirme prove and defend the Protestant Church to have beene alwaies visible against Catholicks or whether Master Rogers could better convince such an Anabaptist not to have the ancient Faith or not to be a member of the continuall visible Church then a Catholicke can convince Master Rogers Rogers Concerning this Distinction I have spoken afore that some Doctrines are more necessary then others now let us see whether this man saith any thing against it and what it is I doe not find hee doth denie it or grant it so that I know not what hee meanes by the words following viz. He may be yet further allowed to reject all Church authoritie and not be satisfied with what is taught by any Church ours or his owne as Master Rogers confesseth he is unsatisfied First you mightily falsifie this Parenthesis upon mee my words were these I doe confesse that none of your side or ours have given me full satisfaction in this point what are res fidei per se And in the words next going before I said thus Master Fisher I desire you also for the avoiding of confusion to deliver your opinion Whether all the Affirmative Doctrines of the Councell of Trent are matters of Faith per se fundamentall and necessarie to be held for salvation fide explicita I speake de adultis quibus facultas datur discendi who being come to yeares of discretion have capacitie to learne This much in my first Answer to this my request he makes no reply either hee is ignorant or dare not expresse whether all the affirmative doctrines of his Councel of Trent are matters of Faith and necessary to be knowne and believed though I then told him I proposed this question as desirous to learn This much concerning my question and my request Now to my Assertion viz. That none of his side or ours hath given me full satisfaction herein he hence infers that I am unsatisfied without any limitation or if wee will looke backe beyond the Parenthesis as if I were unsatisfied in that which is taught in any Church ours or his This is the right fallacie à dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter I said I was satisfied by none of theirs or ours in the instances of one distinction what Doctrines were to be reduced to either member of the Distinction namely what Doctrines were necessary what not necessary what was fundamentall what accessory what matter of Faith properly what accidentally and hee would traduce mee as if I were unsatisfied in all other Doctrines this is the Devils Logicke Master Fisher who is the father of lies to say I confessed that I never did As well I might prove that you have never a nose on your face or that you are blind thus Mr. Fisher hath never a Nose on his brest Ergo Mr. Fisher hath no Nose As you say Master Rogers doth confesse hee is unsatisfied in some things belonging to one distinction Ergo Master Rogers is unsatisfied in any Doctrine Or thus Mr. Fisher doth confesse that hee doth not see why Master Rogers may not absolutely grant his fourth Proposition Ergo Master Fisher doth confesse he doth not see Master Fisher I am satisfied in the doctrines of my faith in the doctrines of my Church in the truth of ours and the falshood of yours as that I desire to die rather then receive your faith or forsake any of mine and I doe hold your Roman Church the most corrupted erroneous usurping part or member of the Christian Church that is in the world I distinguished between doctrines of Faith the Church and of the Schoole These latter being private opinions of men in distinguishing defining or arguing being neither contained in Scriptures nor delivered by the Church I might be unsatisfied in and the rather because the greatest Writers of your side and ours doe vary herein or speake indefinitely which is no resolution Thomas secunda secundae quest 2. saying one thing Occham another and Valenza differing from both Tom Lib. 4. c. 11. de verbo Dei 3 disp 1. q. Bellarmine speaking indifinitely some things in the Doctrine of Christianity as well belonging to faith as manners are simply necessary to all men that will be saved such is the knowledge of the Apostolicke Creed of the ten Commandements and of some Sacraments non nullorum Sacramentorum not defining which and giving small satisfaction with his individuum vagum of some Sacraments not telling which so also amongst our Writers Calvin Hooker Doctor Field Doctor Vsher doe all thus distinguish but when they come to expresse what belongeth to either member they doe not all speake alike Calvin Institut l. 4. cap. 1. n. 12. saith some things are necessary for all men to beleeve as that there is one God that Christ is God and the Sonne of God that our salvation consisteth in the mercy of God similia and such like This word similia leaves it undetermined Hooker holdeth these three to be fundamentall necessary and essentiall unto the Church one Lord one Faith one Baptisme but under that of faith he understandeth as necessary the Articles of the Apostles Creed so that he and Doctor Vsher differ very little or nothing at all Doctor Field is somewhat more full in his third booke of the Church the fourth Chapter yet not in reall addition but
he hath already seemed to say that none of their negative Doctrines pertaine to their faith and that all which is affirmed by Protestants is affirmed by Roman Catholikes and that this affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes out of which it will follow that those English Protestants who shall hold some of the 39 Articles and deny the rest may be said to have no faith different from those which subscribe to all the 39 Articles which last Consequence if Master Rogers grant I aske why the booke of the Canons doth excommunicate ipso facto such halfe Protestants Why doe their Bishops imprison them as Hereticks and not account them members of their Church And why may not Roman Catholikes by as good or better right accouunt Protestants who deny so many points defined in both ancient and recent Generall Councels to be Hereticks excommunicaeed and no members of the ancient and present Catholike Church Rogers That which you require heere I performed in my first Answer in my definition of a Protestant or else it had been no good definition had it not contained all that is essentiall this you know well enough but because you have nothing to answer you will demaund the same question againe Looke into my definition there you shall finde it and I made the same request unto you for a definition of the visible Church and what points you hold to be fundamentall to which you make no answer at all I there also undertooke to prove all our Affirmations which you deny so you doe the like by your Affirmations which we deny my words were these in my former answer Rogers in his first answer In all these I defend the Negative and so it doth belong to you to prove the Affirmative which when you shall doe by testimonies of Writers in all ages I will yeeld unto you for you proving the Affirmative the Negative will fall of it selfe as for example The first instance of Negation in our Articles is part of the sixt Article concerning those bookes of Esdras Tobit Iudith c. which we receive not for Canonicall you doe the proofe is on your side What I require of you I will performe on our side whatsoever is affirmative in our Articles I will maintaine to be affirmed and taught in all Ages as the 1 2 3 4 5 Articles the Affirmative part of the 6 the 7 8 and so in the rest or I will yeeld unto you Give me instance what Affirmation of our Articles you deny and I will prove it in all Ages And I desire you to set downe withall which of your affirmative Articles you receive and whether we agree in the Articles of the Creed or not I will doe the like by you and give you an instance in our Affirmatives Shew me who in every Age did receive the bookes of Esdras Machabees Tobit Iudith c. for Canonicall in the 1 2 3 4 Centurie of yeares This is one of the first points of your Tridentine faith Master Fisher I desire you also for the avoiding of confusion to deliver your opinion whether all the Affirmative Doctrines of the Councell of Trent are matters of faith per se fundamentall and necessary to be held for salvation fide explicita I speake de adultis quibus facultas discendidatur Thus farre in my former Answer to which you have made reply you have neither shewed which of our Affirmative Articles you deny nor which you receive nor have you proved one Instance I gave of your Affirmatives nor as much as expressed what you hold for matters of faith but dissembling all this passe it over with silence unlesse you had thought as the Boy did by his bodged verses that what you wrote would never be read but that men would reade the Titles and number the Pages and there finde written over head Master Rogers weake Grounds Master Rogers weake Arguments would take the rest upon trust would you ever have put Pen to Paper and yet in matters of Controuersies never expresse what your selfe held nor tell us being requested what your owne faith is or to give a reason of your owne faith nor to define your owne Church And answer formally and punctually to no one Argument and frame no one Argument of your owne Hominis est vehementèr abutentis otio literis That a man should offer to write a Tract and that in so sacred a profession as Divinitie and that in a question of so high a nature as these are what is the Christian faith what is the visible Church and herein not answer one question not to bring one Distinction or Definition or frame one Argument in forme or like a Scholler is a mispending of time wasting of Paper and abusing the very name of Learning Divinity as all other Sciences consisteth of Principles and Conclusions the Principles received on both sides are the Scriptures to which you would adde unwritten Traditions you bring not one place of Scripture to maintaine those Affirmative Tenents of yours which we deny you account Articles of faith And as for Theologicall conclusions you inferre none you frame no Argument you make no Syllogisme you give no reason of your faith though Saint Peter require it whom I thought of all the Apostles you did most respect what shall we thinke then but that you have neither Scripture nor reason for your faith I meane in your new Creed in which you dissent from us Fisher I require withall that he give me a substantiall ground well proved out of Scripture why those perticular points which he shall assigne are points of Protestant faith rather then others contained in the 39. Articles if he say as he hath already seemed to say that none of their Negative Doctrines pertaine to their faith and that all that is affirmed by Protestants is affirmed by Roman Catholikes and that this Affirmative Doctrine onely doth pertaine to faith it will follow that Protestants have no faith different from Roman Catholikes Rogers He calleth unto me to distinguish between points of Protestant faith and other points contained in the 39 Articles and yet in the next word he is faine to confesse that I distinguished if he say as he hath already seemed to say that none of their Negative Doctrines pertaine unto their faith This I had delivered in my first Answer and yet he still calleth for it yet he must mince it a little and say I seemed to say so great a friend he is to seeming that he will never leave it knowing it to be essentiall to the definition of Sophistry and a Sophister You might have left out your seeming and written plainly that I said so seeing in my Answer to your first Paper I spent nere a page in explicating and exemplifying this Distinction and in my Answer to your second Paper which was delivered me as the worke of five Jesuites then conversant about Gondamors house
some yeares after a reply was published whether by Master Fisher himselfe or some other in his behalfe I know not a sight whereof I could not get in a yeare or two after To that reply of his I answer in this ensuing Discourse with a Catalogue from the seventh Centurie to the fifteenth of such as professed our faith which Catalogue of perticular men being finished I have added a Catalogue of Councels in all Ages who professed our faith This booke of mine was finished seven or eight yeares past as a noble personage now imployed by our Soveraigne King in forraign parts can testifie who bestowed some books upon me which were very usefull unto mee in this Worke which he did read as did also many learned Doctors of our Church of Hereford D. Kernit D. Best D. Hoskinsed I was slow in publishing it having no desire to be in Print but the perswasions of some of our Church and the brags of some of our Adversaries saying that I neither had nor could answer Master Fisher caused me to present it to the licencer And so to send it into the view of the world requesting the Christian Reader first to peruse the former booke printed without my knowledge Secondly to observe how my Adversarie doth passe by many principall things in my first answer without any mention at all of the same Thirdly that of what he hath written against me I passe not by any one sentence unanswered My Booke hath two generall heads First what our Faith and Church is and how proved primarily and properly by Scriptures secondarily and improperly by reasons and humane testimony Secondly that by this way of a Catalogue of those who taught their faith or Trent Creed as distinct from ours they cannot prove their succession for many reasons alleadged by me in the thirteenth Chapter of this booke as first the uncertainty of humane testimony Secondly their purging out of Authors that which makes against them Thirdly their forging of Authors and Councels fourthly their slighting and abasing of the Ecclesiasticall Historians of the Primitive Church example whereof shall be shewed as occasion shall be offered I will conclude this my Preface with those words of Saint Augustine Ep. 48. Necesse est incerti sint qui pro societate sua testimonio utuntur non divino sed suo But let us with St. Augustine cleave to the Scriptures and say with him Ecce ubi didicimus Christum Ep. 166. ecce ubi didicimus Ecclesiam Loe where we have learned Christ loe where we have learned to find his Church Give the glory to God for what is well and impute the imperfections and defects to my weaknesse who will to my poore ability be Thine in the Lord. H. R A Table of the Contents CHAP. I. THe rules of answering 1. to lay downe his Adversaries words and 2. to answer to every particular Vel concedendo vel negando vel distinguendo either by granting denying or distinguishing by explicating of ambiguous termes observed by Mr R. but not by Mr. Fisher a comparison from the Dog drinking of Nilus and Anthony flying from Actium 1 CHAP. II. 1. The occasion of this Discourse 2. Mr. Fishers termes ambiguous 3. Distinctio vocis and definitio rei neglected by Master Fisher though requested by his Adversary 4. These are the grounds of all doctrinall Discourses 5. Master Rogers answer to Master Fishers first question That he will shew who professed the faith of the Reformed Churches in all Ages 6. Master Fisher cannot shew the names of Iesuites in all Ages 2 CHAP. III. 1. Master Fishers Rule That probatio est affirmantis non negantis They who affirme are to prove admitted by Master Rogers 2. A Church may be proved though the particular names not recorded as a Christian Church in this Iland before Austin the Monke came hither 3. M. Fisher doth confound two questions and commits a fallacie secundum plures interrogationes 4. Master Fisher by his rule of names in all Ages may be denyed to be a man to be descended of Adam if he admit no other proofe 5. Master Rogers Argument to prove himselfe a Christian confirmed out of Bellarmine Baronius Valenza c. 6. What is essentiall and necessary to an explicit faith set downe at large 7. The covenant of faith the same in all Christian Churches of the world Latine Roman and Reformed the Greeke Armenian c. 5 CHAP. IV. Of the totall object of faith as it includeth not onely the primary essentiall matters of faith but also the secondary and accidentall matters contained in the revealed truth And that from hence demonstrations may be drawne to prove the Protestants to be a Church 13 CHAP. V. Shewing out of Saint Augustine that there is no other way to demonstrate a Church to be a true Christian Church but by the word of God 120 CHAP. VI. The Roman polemicke Theologues likened to the Indian Apes that appeared to Alexander and to the Ligurians the difference betweene the ancient and present Church of Rome between the Ancient Monkes and the present the title of Roman Catholique a most impudent contradiction Two Impostors submitting themselves as two Patriaachs to the Church of Rome The whole faith of the Protestants confirmed by Popish Writers Yet the Romanists have another new faith of their owne 32 CHAP. VII Master Fisher pressed by his own rule to prove the new Creed wherein he is Affirmative we Negative 2. A member of the Church of Rome may beare witnesse against the Church of Rome 41 CHAP. VIII What it is to communicate with others how farre we yet communicate with the Roman Church and wherein we refuse to communicate 45 CHAP. IX 1. Some distinctions justified 2. Master Fisher puts false Titles over his booke as thus Master ROGERS his weake Grounds over his 26 and 27 pages and yet not one word spoken in both those pages of any of Master Rogers Grounds And page 28. Master Rogers most weake Arguments and yet not one Argument of Master Rogers mentioned in all that page Master Fisher changeth his termes for Faith puts Doctrines 52. CHAP. X. Master Rogers definition of a Protestant Church conformed The same definition agreeth with all true Churches in the world the rule of defining Bellarmines definion of the Church confuted together with the Romish Doctrine that none can be saved out of their Church 56 CHAP. XI M.F. puts false Titles upon the pages of his Booke As Master Rogers his most weak Grounds or Arguments where there is â—â—mention of his Grounds or Arguments The Protestants a true Church not the true Church Histories no good proofe of the Church All Doctrines not points of Faith M. Fishers reasons to prove that the Teachers of true and false Doctrine are to be found in Histories answered 71 CHAP. XII Negatives depend upon Affirmatives Master Fishers Tautologies He saith Master Rogers granteth what he never did grant 86 CHAP. XIII Foure Reasons to prove that Master Fishers
proofe by Histories cannot be effectuall and satisfactorie 1. For the uncertainty of humane Stories 2. Because of their Index expurgatorius 3. Because they have forged many authorities of Councels and Fathers 4. Because they have excepted against all the Ecclesiasticall Historians of the Primitive Church as falsaries 91 CHAP. XIIII Master Fishers Answer to Master Rogers Arguments and Grounds 100 CHAP. XV. The Protestants Faith contained in Scripture The Articles of their faith in the Apostles Creed Master Rogers Arguments maintained against Master Fishers first Answer by denying the minor 103 CHAP. XVI Master Fishers second Answer by changing Protestant into Catholike refuted retorted a bold manifest falshood of Master Fishers Master Fisher but halfe a Papist 109 CHAP. XVII The Romanists can bring no Authors for 400 yeares for their halfe Communion Worshipping of Images c. nor for any else in some Ages for want of Wtiters in times of ignorance No Councell no good Writers no good Pope Saculo 9. In which 9 Age nothing was visible in the Roman Church but vile and lewd Popes or Intruders proved at large out of Baronius 114 CHAP. XVIII A threefold Catalogue 1. Of Latin 2. Of Greeke Authors 3. Of Councels who professed our faith maintain'd our sacraments but not the faith and sacraments of the Roman Church 119 CHAP. XIX The distinctions of Doctrines Accessory and Fundamentall of Affirmation and Negation 142 CHAP. XX. The same distinction maintained Iohn Ellis his comparison The Ape with his youngling The boy with his bodging Verses Decrees of Councels not Articles of faith What makes an Hereticke The Anabaptist as he is supposed by Master Fisher a member of the Church but membrum non sanum 148 CHAP. XXI Of Doctrine fundamentall The Roman Church the most corrupted part of the Church 155 CHAP. XXII Of Baptizing of children The errour of the Anabaptist in practise not in point of faith 159 CHAP. XXIII The Papists affirme all our faith but differ in Ecclesiasticall Doctrines which they terme points of faith in which they want Antiquity Vniversality and Consent 164 CHAP. XXIIII The same grounds of doctrines accessory and fundamentall of affirmation and negation maintained 2. Negatives in Scripture pertaine to faith per accidens not per se All things revealed in Scripture have equall truth but not equall profit equall necessitie of being beleeved being knowne but not equall necessity to be knowne Negatives not revealed in Scripture are res fidei neither per se nor per accidens The Church of Rome most hating and most hated by all Churches in the world as Innovators Schismaticks and Hereticks The Conclusion of the whole Booke 171 Recensui hunc librum cujus titulus est The Protestant Church existent c. in quo nihil reperio bonis moribus aut sanae Doctrinae contrarium quo minus imprimatur modo id fiat intra annum proximè sequentem Secus ista licentia effectu carebit Johannes Oliver Reverendiss in Christo Patr. Dom. Domino Arch. Cant. Capell Dom. Ex Aedi Lamb. Apr. 15. 1637. THE PROTESTANT CHVRCH EXISTENT CHAP. I. Master Fisher observeth neither Art nor Order in answering Master Rogers MAster Fisher or whosoever you are that undertake for him if you would have done by me as I did by Master Fisher namely have set downe all my grounds and answered to them in particular as I did to Master Fishers Propositions it might have given the Reader better satisfaction who thereby might see whether we doe agree in any thing that I have written or dissent in all whether you reject all those grounds which I laid or admit of some as I did by your Propositions approving some rejecting others In solutione argumentorum duae tātum solutiones distinguendo vel tollendo Ego autem hic de Propositionibus loquor and in those you reject if you would have answered to them in their place punctually and not go roving so to puzzle the Reader with disorder I tooke those Propositions that were offered to me as they lay I answered to every period vel concedendo aut distinguendo aut negando either granting distinguishing or denying and where I found any ambiguity in your termes or sentences I desired you to explicate and cleere the same which you have not done yet you know that no disputation may be undertaken no Argument framed no Treatise composed without this no not so much as one bare Proposition or Sentence may subsist with aequivocation and amphibologie words or sentences of double signification and doubtfull sense untill they be cleared by explications and distinctions This you know to be the advice and practise of the Philosophers and Divines which have written But such are your termes Propositions as that they seeme to be made of purpose in ambiguous words or contexture so to leave open some starting hole or evasion and answering your Adversary out of order to draw a curtaine before the understanding not onely of the Reader but also of your Adversary Aristot Elench 2. We are ignorant of what wee formerly knew when it is misplaced and disordered and your selfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thus have I beene served by others besides you Is not this catching at a word here and passing by a whole side of a leafe elsewhere without saying one word to it afterward leape backe a leafe or two and snarle at an Argument or snap at a distinction and so away Is not this I say like the Dog drinking of Nilus lap a little and runne away lap againe and runne away This was applyed by one to Antony flying after Cleopatra from the Battell at Actium who being asked Quid agit Antonius Answered Quod canis ad Nilum lambit fugit so much was hee besotted with that Harlot Thus you the Champion of that Purple Harlot that sitteth upon the seven hils fight her quarrels a snatch and away a snap and be gone or if you make a short stand you will but shew your teeth grin snarle but hardly bite That I may draw you from this course of disorder I will put downe what Master Fisher proposed vvhat I answered and then vvhat this Author replied or vvhere hee did not reply CHAP. II. The occasion and time when this Author Master Rogers was first interessed in this matter ATt that time when our now Soveraigne was in Spaine a Gentleman delivered me those Propositions following in the presence of divers I being then in London 100. miles from my dwelling and my Bookes That night I delivered this answer following after Master Fishers Propositions The Gent was then almost become Romanist having beene not many dayes before at Masse in the Spanish Embassadors house and Master Fisher coming to this Gent Chamber left those Propositions with him The like verbatìm the Right Honourable Earle of O. did shew me saying that it vvas all written with Master Fishers owne hand The Propositions are these Fisher IT being granted that there must bee a Visible Church in
per Prophetas sonuit verbum deindè per seipsum deindè per Apostolos In his igitur omnibus quaerenda est Ecclesia Hoc etiam praedico atque propono uti quae aperta manifesta deligamus quae si in sanctis Scripturis non invenirentur nullo modo esset vndè aperirentur clausa illustrarentur obscura Seponenda sunt quae obscurè sunt posita figurarum velaminibus involuta In talibus figuris nolo quaeramus Ecclesiam non quia falsae sunt sed quia interpretem quaerunt Cap. 6. O Donatistae Genesin legite Benedicentur in semine tuo omnes Gentes terrae Genes 22. Quid dicat Apostolus audiamus Gal. 3. In semine tuo quod est Christus Ecce Testamentum Dei quare vos irritum facitis Testamentum Dei dicendo nec in omnibus Gentibus esse completum periisse jam de Gentibus in quibus erat semen Abrahae Quare superordinatis dicendo in nullis terris haeredem permanere Christum nisi ubi poterit cohaeredem habere Donatum Non invidemus alicui Legite nobis hoc de lege de Prophetis de Psalmis de ipso Evangelio Apostolicis literis legite credimus sicut nos vobis legimus de Genes de Apostolo benedicentur in te omnes tribus terrae in semine tuo Date mihi hanc Ecclesiam si apud vos est ostendite vos communicare omnibus Gentibus quas jam videmus in hoc semine benedici Cap. 7. Quid in Prophetis quam multa quam manifesta sunt testamonia Ecclesiae per omnes Gentes toto orbe terrarum diffusae Isa 11. Repleta est vniversa terra ut cognoscat Dominum Isa 27. Germinabit florescet Israel replebitur Orbis terrarum fructu ejus Psal 27. Posui te in lucem Gentium ut sis salus usque ad fines terrae Laetare sterilis quia non paris erumpe exclama quoniam multi filii desertae magis quam ejus quae habet virum Comparent isti multitudinem suam in Aphrica constitutam cum multitudine Iudaeorum per omnes terras quacunque dispersi sunt et videant quam sint in illorum comparatione paucissimi Quomodo ergò de se dictum assignabunt multi filij desertae quam ejus quae habet virum Rursus comparent multitudinem Christianorum per omnes Gentes quibus non communicant videant quam pauci sint in comparatione omnes Iudei tandem aliquandò intelligant in Ecclesia Catholica toto orbe diffusa istam prophetiam esse completam Iam pauca de Psalmis audiamus Cap. 8. Dabo tibi Gentes haereditatem tuam possessionem tuam fines terrae Nonne Apostolus de Praedicatoribus Novi Testamenti dictum exposuit quod scriptum est in omnem terram exivit sonus eorum Psal 18. in fines orbis terrae verba eorum Psal 56. Et super omnem terram gloria tua undè gloria ejus super omnem terram nisi quia Ecclesia ejus per omnem terram replebitur gloria ejus omnis terra Psal 71. fiat fiat Ite nunc vos Donatist clamate non fiat non fiat Vicit vos Verbum Dei dicens fiat fiat Quid ad haec dicturi sint quae commemoravi ex Lege ex Trophetis ex Psalmis Audiamus ipsius verbi vocem ore propriae carnis expressam Sic scriptum ect sic oportebat Christum pati resurgere à mortuis tertio die Hic ipsum caput ostenditur quod ipsum se manibus discipulorum prebuit contrectandum Vide quemadmodum de corpore adjungat quod est Ecclesia ut nos nec in Sponso nec in Sponsa errare permittat Et predicari inquit in nomine ejus poenitentiam remissionem peccatorum per omnes Gentes incipientibus ab Hierusalem Quid hac voce veratiùs quid diviniùs quid manifestiùs Me piget commendare verbis meis haereticos non pudet oppugnare verbis suis Dicant ea testimonia quae posui de Lege Prophetis Psalmis obscura esse figuratè dicta etiam aliter posse intelligi quanquam in eis egerim quantum potui ut nec audeant dicere Sed ecce dicant nunquid obscure dictum aut aenigmatis velamento adumbratum est quod ipse Christus dixit quia sic scriptum est sic opportebat Christum pati resurgere tertio die predicari in nomine ejus poenitentiam remissionem peccatorum per omnes Gentes Epist 48. Audi dicit Dominus non dicit Donatus aut Rogatus aut Vincentius aut Hilarius aut Ambrosius aut Augustinus sed dicit Dominus Quomodo ex divinis literis confidimus accipisse nos Christū manifestum si non indè accepimus Ecclesiam manifestam Necesse est incerti sint qui pro sua societate testimonio utuntur non divino sed suo Nisi cognoveris teipsum non in verbis calumniosorū sed in testimoniis librorum meorum In Scripturis didicimus Christū Epist 116. in Scripturis didicimus ecclesiam Has Scripturas communiter habemus quare nō in eis et Christum Ecclesiam cōmuniter retinemus Ecce Scripturae communes ecce ubi novimus Christum ecce ubi novimus Ecclesiam Those words of St. Augustine I apply to our present purpose concluding in the same manner against the Romanists as this Father did against the Donatists changing onely Donatist for Romanist Cap 2. The Question betweene us and the Romanists is where is the Church What then shall we doe shall we seeke for the Church in our owne words or in the words of her Head and our Lord Christ Iesus I think we ought rather to seeke her in his words who is the Truth and best knoweth his owne body For the Lord knoweth who are his Cap. 3. But as I began to say let us not heare these words I say this thou saist that but let us heare this thus saith the Lord Our master hath left books unto us to the authority of which Bookes wee both consent wee both beleeve we both submit there let us seeke the Church there let us examine our cause Away with those words from amongst us which we cite not out of the Canonicall Books of God but elswhere Some man peradventure wil say unto me why wil you have those things taken away seeing your cause though those things were alleaged will stand invincible Because I would have the Church demōstrated not by human reason but by divine oracles For if the holy Scriptures haue designed the Church to be in Italy alone in those few which concur with Rome whatsoever may be brought out of other Bookes none but the Romanists do possesse the Church If the holy Scripture doe limit the Church to a few more of the Province of Caesarea we must passe unto the Rogatists If it be amongst those
their society their own testimony not the testimony of God Vnlesse thou know thy selfe not in the word of cavelling people but in the testimonies of my Books In the Scriptures have wee learned to know Christ in the Scriptures have we learned to know his Church Wee have these Scriptures common to us both and why out of these doe not we hold Christ and his Church common to us both And againe Behold the Scripture common to both loe where wee have known Christ loe where we have known his Church Reflecting now upon what wee have cited out of this incomparable Father wee may observe how plainly how frequently how perseveringly he maintaineth that this Question concerning the Church may be proved plainly manifestly clearly out of Scripture That hee would not have men use Humane testimonie in this question and they which doe use Humane testimonies herein and not Divine stand upon uncertainties Aquin. 1. q. 1. art 8. Carbo to the same purpose the Schoolmen say That Humane reasons in hac doctrina non valent ad probandum are not of force to prove yet it useth Humane reason not to prove Faith and what it believeth but to declare other things as a forreine Argument and probable but it useth Divine Authorities as a proper and necessary Argument Secondly let us observe that this Father writing upon this Question so many Books as make more then halfe a great Tome yet never used any other Argument in those Bookes but Scripture hee never called upon his Adversaries to shew names of their Professors in all Ages nor did hee attempt that for himselfe but chose rather to cite the same Scriptures twenty times at least in severall Bookes of that subject out of which places I will collect two Arguments first desiring the Reader to observe That things expresly contained in Scriptures and things thence deduced are of a different nature these later inferior to those those are Principles these are but Conclusions those depend upon supernaturall light of Divine Revelation these Conclusions are grounded upon those Divine Principles which men apprehend by Faith and then doe search and find the illation and consequence of these Conclusions by the light of naturall reason improved by Industry and refined by Art I doe not say that I can shew in Scripture that the Protestants are the true Church which were to make it a point of Faith but out of Scriptures I can prove that the Protestants are a Church and so make it a Theologicall conclusion and the Arguments demonstrations because drawne out of the proper Principles of Theologie or Divinitie thus 1. Argument They who professe that Faith which was preached through the World are a true Christian Church But the Protestants holding the Apostles Creed and the doctrine of the Apostles doe professe that Faith which was preached through the World Ergo The Protestants are a true Christian Church 2. Argument They who hold Communion and acknowledge themselves to be a part of that Church which is dispersed through the World are a true Church But the Protestants doe hold Communion and acknowledge themselves to bee a part of that Church which is dispersed through the World Ergo The Protestants are a true Church Secondly out of the same Principles I will prove that the Church of Rome is not the Church as excluding all other Churches thus 1. Argument The Church doth professe that Faith which was preached and received through the World The Roman Church holding a new Creed of unwritten Traditions Transubstantiation worshipping of Images c. doe therein not professe that Faith which was preached and received through the World Ergo The Church of Rome is not the Church 2. Argument The Christian Church hath many more Children then the Church of the Iewes But the Romane Church hath not more Children then the Church of the Iewes Ergo The Roman Church is not the Christian Church The Major Saint Austine doth bring out of Scripture in those words The barren hath many more children then shee that hath an husband The Minor will appeare if we say unto these Romanist◠as Saint Austine did to the Donatists Let them compare their multitude with the multitude of the Iewes dispersed over the world and they shall see how few they are in comparison of them the Iewes being by the calculation of the a Brirewood in his Enquiries most learned in Historie and Geographie as many as will people all Europe The Roman Church when it was entire being not much more then halfe Europe if so much and now having lost halfe that it was is farre lesse This I shall enlarge morefully hereafter when I shall come to maintaine my former Arguments Now I addresse my selfe to Master Fishers Replie CHAP. VI. Fisher Concerning M. Rogers his Answer to M. Fishers five Propositions BY this which hath been said against Master Bernard his Looke beyond Luther it may be easily seene that M. Rogers hath not sufficiently answered M. Fishers question aforesaid for with a bold audacitie he nameth for Protestants famously knowne Romane Catholikes to wit these Writers of the first seven hundred yeeres and amongst others even Saint Bede whose Writings and profession of life being a professed Romane Catholike Monke shew him to bee no Protestant Rogers I can see no such thing in what you have said against Mr. Bernard neither have you said any thing there which may touch me but you have the same in this your Treatise against me you have written not halfe a sheet in Reply to Mr. Bernards Booke of eight or nine sheets and yet you would have men see in your short Reply to him a Confutation also of what I have written I have read that Alexander the Great seeing a companie of Indian Apes marching along a Hils side tooke them to be an armie of Enemies but when he came neere he found them to be as they were poore silly fearfull Apes that ran into the woods to hide themselves Hee that thinkes hee seeth in your Reply to Mr. Bernard a confutation of him or me is as much mistaken as Alexander was in the Apes the reason is hee looketh a farre off as Alexander did when hee tooke them for armed men but hee that commeth neere unto your Writings vieweth and examineth them diligently shall find that there is no armie there are no armed men no sword no weapon no Scripture no reason to wound us You strout and stalke a farre off but when wee draw neere you flye into the thickets of some darke speeches ambiguous phrases aequivocating termes like those Liguranes quos major aliquantò labor erat invenire quam vincere It is more labour to find you out then to conquer you Mr. Bernard I doubt not is able to answer any thing that you have objected unto him if he think such poore objections of yours to be worthy of any Reply I wil addresse my selfe unto what you object unto mee you say that I have not sufficiently answered Mr. Fishers
Romane Church may give testimonie against you and for me Caiphas even then when he persecuted Christ might prophesie truly of Christ Pilate who did crucifie Christ did write that of Christ which was true viz. that hee was King of the Iewes Matthew Paris was a member of the Romane Church who said that your Church did never reject any that came unto her if they brought white or red with them Silver or Gold This member of the Roman Church said that a principall member viz. That Pope Gregorie the seventh did confesse on his death-bed that by the instigation of the devill hee had troubled the world yet this was such a member as that Innocentius the fourth Matthew Paris the then Pope vvrote of him that hee vvas vir probatae vitae Religioris expertae Such a Writer as that Baronius giveth this testimony of him Take away from his Booke his calumnies Anno 996. n. 63 64. invectives taunts and blasphemies against the Apostolick See often repeated and you vvill say it is a golden Commentarie taken vvord by vvord out of the publike Records and very vvell compiled together Thus farre Baronius As if a man should except against a vvitnesse and say you must not believe him in this vvhich he sayes against me but in all things else you may believe him hee speakes nothing but vvhat is upon publike Record Cajetane was a learned member of your Church and yet he held the Canon of Scripture as vvee doe contrarie to that vvhich the Councell of Trent hath defined Sixtus Senensis vvas a member of the Roman Church and yet hee did denie some part of the Scripture to be Canonicall which the Councell of Trent defined for Canonicall and that after the Councell Bellarm. de Verbo Dei l. 1. c. 7. I will fit you with many such members in my Catalogue Fisher Neither can I see any reason why hee did not with like audacitie goe on in naming other famous Romane Catholickes in every Age but that as it seemeth hee was not resolved whether hee were better to put in his Catalogue the names of damned Haeretickes which disagree in divers points of Faith from all ancient and present Pastors and Doctors of the Church even from the Protestants themselves Rogers Who you meane by these Haeretickes I know not and therfore I need not reply unto you herein if you had laid that imputation upon us I would have enlarged my selfe in the defence but you say they differ in points of Faith from the Protestants Fisher Or else to put in names of Popes Cardinals Bishops Priests Monkes and other religious men whose Writings and profession of life palpably shew that they held the present Roman Doctrine and communicated with the Roman Church Rogers I have answered you already that I will name Popes Cardinals Bishops Priests Monkes and others of your Church and why but such as neither their Writings nor profession of life doe palpably shew that they held the present Roman Faith If their Writings expresse what you say I will yeeld but that their Roman profession of life should include the now present Roman Faith I deny and besides what I formerly spake concerning your Writers I will adde some few instances now Gratian. Can Comp. de consecr dist 2. Gelasius was a Pope and yet hee held your present halfe Communion to be Sacriledge and decreed thus Aut integra suscipiant aut ab integris arceantur Let them receive the Communion in both formes or in neitheâ— Nich Lyranus was a Catholick and yet hee held the Canon of Scripture contrary to that of the Councell of Trent as Bellarmine confesseth So did Hugo and Thomas de Vio two Cardinals Irenaeus Basil Chrysostome Augustine and others whom I cited before cap. 4. were Bishops and yet they held the fulnesse and perfection of Scripture without the supply of unwritten Traditions contrary to the Councell of Trent Ierome was a Priest and a Monke yet denied those Books to be Canonicall which we deny contrary to that the Councell of Trent hath taught and decreed As the hand of a man may smite himselfe and yet continue a member of his body so these might be members of the Roman Church and yet give testimonie in something against your Church The Embassador De Ferrias of France was a member of the Roman Church and a French man Histor Concil Trid when in the Councell of Trent speaking of the miseries of France hee said If they should demand why France is not in peace hee could answer nothing but that which Iehu said to Ioram How can there be peace there remaining and concealed the words following but added You know the Text. The Cardinall of Loraine was a principall member of the Roman Church and the second Clergie man in the Latine Church yet hee speaking of the miseries of France said in the Councell of Trent If you would demand who hath caused this tempest and fortune I can say nothing but this That this fortune is come by our meanes cast us into the Sea By Vs hee must understand the Roman Clergie Iudas that betrayed Christ gave a true testimonie against himselfe when hee said J have sinned in betraying innocent blood And the limbs of Antichrist may give a true testimonie against Antichrist Now whereas you say that they communicated with the Roman Church I grant they did in some things or else they had not beene members of that Church but not in all for not in those things they did disavow reprove condemn and that this may the better be understood I will enlarge my discourse herein CHAP. VIII What it is to communicate with others How farre wee yet communicate with the Roman Church and wherein wee refuse to communicate COmmunio est multorum unio Communio quid Communion is the union of many They that agree in one opinion are so farre united they are one They that enjoy any thing in common are so farre united Rom. 12. The Church is one body 1 Cor. 12. Christians are severall members of this one body as therefore the members being many are united in one body and doe communicate in divers of the selfe same things from that one body and communicate one unto another the service of those things that are proper unto them as they are severall members So in the Church all Christians make but one body collective which are united together by many things some outward some inward some both outward and inward because it is corpus vivum a living body wherein there is saith Saint Augustine a soule Augustin Breviculo Collat. 3. Collat. 9. and a body The soule are the inward gifts of the holy Ghost faith hope and charity c. The body are the outward profession of faith and receiving of Sacraments Whence it comes to passe that some are of the soule and of the body of the Church and therefore united to Christ their Head both inwardly and outwardly these are most
my grounds and yet write in the top of your Booke for divers pages these words Master Rogers his most weake grounds viz. pag. 26 27. and in both these pages not one word spoken of my grounds Thus would you perswade your silly Proselytes who must reade no more then the Title of your Bookes That you have answered all when you have answered nothing Likewise pag. 22. you write over head Master Rogers his most weake Arguments whereas there is not in that page any one Argument of mine You can passe all those grounds of mine with a tricke of Rhetorick to take notice of that which you cannot answer unto and in stead of that must strike at a stander by namely our Booke of Articles saying That they be more craftily composed then the Articles of other Protestant Churches which I deny as most false neither need it any further Reply being an indefinite exception and as it seemeth spoken of purpose to draw mee from that matter proposed to goe a roving as your selfe have done with impertinent discourses Fisher I might therefore without more adoe conclude that Master Rogers hath not sufficiently answered Master Fishers Question Rogers With as little adoe as you can inferre abrogating a Law from that word which is the most proper for enacting the same Decret 1. part dist 4. c. 4. Lugduni Edit anno 1584. jussu Greg. 13. Statuimus id est abrogamus Wee doe enact it that is wee doe cancell it or as you say the Roman Church that is the Catholicke Church a part that is a whole a piece of man that is a whole man this is quidlibet ex quolibet from the staffe to the corner Fisher In regard hee hath neither named Protestants in all Ages neither hath hee sufficiently proved them hee named to be Protestants but by such false suppositions and bad definitions and such other shifts as any Arrian or Anabaptist or whatsoever other absurd Sectary may by the like defend the same persons to have beene of their Religion or Sect. Rogers The Question was whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages This I prooved by divers Arguments to which you have made such answer as wee shall see anon To this I have not sufficiently answered say you in regard 1. I have not named Protestants in all ages As if there were no other means to decide the question but this no other proofe then induction or that my adversary proposing the question should limit me what kind of proofe I must use As if the King of France denouncing war against the King of England should send him word If you will warre against mee you must doe it by land not by sea and you must land in Picardie not in Normandie or Britaine or Poitou and you must chuse your place of battell in large Plaines and fight with horse not with foot and bring no Archers into the field or else confesse that you are no Warrier your Englishmen Scots and Britaines no Souldiers your proceedings not justifiable by the law of Nations Would Charles of France the Frentick have sent such a message such a challenge to our Henry the fift Yet Master Fisher saith If any Protestant will answer the Premises let him set downe names of Protestant Preachers in all Ages who taught the people Protestant Doctrine in everie severall Age or else confesse that there were no such before Luther or at least not in Ages to be found in History As if I should say If any Iesuit will answer mee let him shew mee the names of Iesuit Preachers in all Ages who taught the people Iesuiticall Doctrine in every severall Age or else confesse that there were no such before Ignatius Laiola We will deale with you as Edward the third with Phillip who presented himselfe before Paris saying Hee did call upon him to open fight in the view of France and before his great Theater of Paris He did not limit him to any one kind of fight or weapon hee left him to his choise so doe wee with you prove your selves to be the only Church and that all are excluded from salvation unlesse they hold Communion with and subjection to your Pope prove it by any testimonie of Scripture or demonstration from the Principles of Scripture or Reason frame your Argument as you thinke best for your owne advantage there are many places for Arguments viz. 24. wee exclude none but will admit them in their degrees some as necessary some as probable These are places of Art or Learning yet you will exclude us from all these and bring us ad loca inartificiata to testimonie And whereas those are Divina of God or Man vel Humana of God or Man You will have none but the later which can be but weak there being no Historian or Father but might be deceived and very few against whom you have not taken some exceptions Of all the formes of arguing a Syllogisme is that principall forme which alone hath constringencie and necessary illation and to which all other formes as being imperfect are reduced this we must not meddle with but bring exemplum or inductio or at the most an Enthymeme which is curtatus imperfectus Syllogismus all of them unsufficient parere scientiam to worke and produce true knowledge and yet we must use onely these This is as if the King of France should have sent to our King that when hee fought hee should not put on his best Armour nor use his best Sword Saint Augustine in this question excluded humane testimony yet you will have nothing else Non audiamus Haec dicit Ambrosius Augustinus c. Sed haec dicit Dominus Your Schoole also granteth that Scriptures are the principles in Theologie and all demonstrations must bee ex proprijs principijs out of proper principles Yet you will none of them onely names out of Histories you call for This was a kind of proofe which I did not approve at first but denyed the consequence of your 5th Proposition thus The summe of your fift Proposition is briefly this If the names of Protestant Pastors in all ages cannot be shewed then the Protestants are not the true Church This I deny to be of undoubted consequence for that argument negatively from authority is of no force In your demand you require the names of such as taught the Protestant doctrines whereas all your Propositions before were of faith as if all doctrines were points of faith I undertooke to shew a Church professing the same faith which the Protestants now doe in all ages and in all your Propositions you speake of faith here you speake of doctrines You know all doctrines are not articles of faith I have named Authors for 800. yeeres and in this my second Reply I will for the rest Was not my request more reasonable to call upon you to goe on so farre it being your owne way it being a course proposed by your selfe yet he that hath not gone one mile findeth fault
cast a dart or shoot an Arrow This is Pugna levis bellumque fugax turmaeque vagantes Lucan de Parthis Et melior cessisse loco quam pellere miles Illica tela dolis nec Martem comminus unquam Ausa pati virtus sed longe tendere nervos Et quò ferre velint permittere vulnera ventis Light armed men who flying fight and never firmly stand Better in skipping up and downe then fighting hand to hand Their poisned darts they send and shoot but will not closely fight Wounds which they dare not bring themselves they send by winged flight Had the Argument been so easily answered you would not have answered it by a manifest untruth as you have done by saying That the Protestants Faith is not contained in Scriptures whereas it is one of the greatest Controversies betweene you and us whether the Scriptures be the onely rule of Faith which wee affirme and you denie it is the sixth Article in the Doctrine of our Church of England the Title is thus Of the sufficiencie of holy Scripture for salvation The Article it selfe is this Holy Scripture containeth all things necessarie for salvation so that whatsoever is not read therein nor may be proved thereby is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an Article of the Faith or to be thought requisite and necessarie to salvation c. To this Article of ours agreeth the Helvetian Bohemian French Belgian Saxonian Suevian confessions Reade the Bookes of Luther Brentius Melancthon Chemnitius Calvin Zanchie Whittaker and you shall find that they all doe professe this and write at large in defence thereof We proclaime it in our Pulpits we maintaine it in our Schooles wee will shed our blood rather then admit any Articles of Faith which are not contained in the Scriptures Is it not strange you should have the face to denie that wee professe that which is printed in the Doctrine of our Church preached in our Pulpits every day maintained in our Schooles defended by all proclaimed to the world What doth Chemnitius maintaine in the first part of his Examen Concilii Tridentini but this This the first Controversie which hee there handleth against you What doth Calvin labour in his first Booke of Institutions cap. 6 7 8 9. in his third Booke and second Chapter where hee speaketh of the nature of Faith but this And it is not a little that he writeth to this purpose in his fourth Booke and tenth Chapter Hath not Zanchie written a whole Booke to this purpose Against whom doth Bellarmine write his third and fourth Booke de verbo Dei which tend onely to this purpose to denie the fulnesse of Scripture and to extend matters of Faith to unwritten Traditions but against the Protestants There hee putteth Luther and Brentius in the forefront of his Adversaries Doth not Valenza in his third Tome upon Thomas disputatione 1a. quaest 3ª 4ª 5ª 6ª 7ª octava maintaine the same Tenet against the same men This is the maine Question betweene your Jesuited Schoolmen and us when they write de objecto fidei what those things are which are to be believed with a religious assent of divine Faith Whether onely those things which are contained in Scriptures as the Protestants doe professe or also unwritten Traditions as the Church of Rome doth professe let us then view the Argument and see how you answer it 1. Arg. First a Causis thus The Faith contained in the Scriptures hath had visible Professors in all Ages But the Protestant Faith is contained in the Scriptures Ergo The Protestant Faith had visible Professors in all Ages M. Fisher denieth the Minor or second Proposition which I have proved in the last Page before out of the publike Doctrine of our Church and chiefest Writers of our side and theirs neither can hee be ignorant of the same but the Argument troubles him and something hee must say Neither is hee ignorant that in this Controversie of the visible Church betweene them and us It is not the inward habit but the outward profession of Faith which maketh a visible Church Ecclesia constat professione ejusdē fidei Bellarm. Tom 2. l. 3. c. 2 3 4. etc. cōmunicatione eorundem Sacramentorum The Church doth consist in professing the same Faith and cōmunicating the same Sacraments Cap. 9. And againe the same Author cap. 10. writeth thus I answer Formam Ecclesiae non esse fidem internam nisi Ecclesiam invisibilem habere velimus sed externam id est fidei confessionem c. The forme or essence of the Church is not the inward Faith but the outward profession of Faith L. 19 c. 11. which Saint Augustine declareth most plainly against Faustus the Manichee and experience doth testifie the same for they are admitted into the Church who professe the Faith Thus farre Bellarmine So then by Faith in this Argument of the visible Church is alwayes understood the outward profession of Faith whereas the Protestants doe professe that they believe nothing but what is contained in the Scriptures this Respondent hath the face to say wee doe not professe it If but one man should come into the face of a congregation and say I doe professe and believe onely those things which are contained in Scriptures were not hee very impudent and had a face harder then brasse who would say to this man Thou dost not professe that Faith which is contained in Scriptures That Argument is not easily answered which driveth the Respondent to such miserable shifts Wee professe no Articles of Faith but those which are contained in the Apostles Creed which of these Articles are not contained in Scriptures Ad Partes Master Fisher this is the law of answering to a Proposition that hath many members wee professe that with a religious divine Faith wee receive nothing but what is contained in the five books of Moses or Ioshua Iudges Ruth the two books of Samuel the two books of Kings the two books of Chronicles the two books of Esdras Esther the booke of Iob or the Psalmes or Proverbs or Ecclesiastes or the Canticles or the foure greater or twelve lesser Prophets Or in the foure Evangelists or in the Acts of the Apostles or the Revelation and Epistles of Saint Iohn or the Epistles of Saint Paul Saint Iames Saint Peter Saint Iude which of these bookes is not Scripture Thus wee professe our Faith doe not wee every where professe with Saint Augustine De Doct. Christiana l. 2. c. 9. and against you That all things concerning Faith and life necessarily to be knowne and believed are plainly set downe in Scripture With Saint Basil Serm. de fidei confess Lib. cont Hermogen and against you That it is pride and infidelity to adde unto the Scriptures With Tertullian against you and Hermogenes Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis officina Si non Scriptum timeat vae illud c. Shew where it is written or else feare that woe
Ferrara made by Marcus Bishop of Ephesus Sess 5. in a grave and learned speech recorded by your owne Surius in the fourth Tome of Councels imprinted at Colonia Agrippina Anno 1567. Definitiones Decreta aliarum omnium Synodorum recitanda nobis videntur ut haec nostra Synodus non solum ab illis non discrepare verumetiam ipsas in omnibus imitari velle videatur quoniam nos firmiter credimus majores nostros nil prorsus silentio praeterjiffe quod ad nostrum fidei Symbolum spectet Marcus Ephesinus in Generali 8. Synodo Sess 3. apud Surium Tom. 3. Pag. 375. Porro autem quoniam de Divinis primi ac alterius Concilii dogmatibus nil aliud reperitur nisi duae tantem fidei nostrae expositiones hoc est duo Symbola quae tamen pro uno a caeteris Conciliis suscepta fuerant idcirco à recitandis tertii Concilii gestis auspicandum nobis censemus vobis probare promittimus Christianorum omnium unam esse Catholicam fidem ad quam accessionem aliquem fieri aut quicquam ab ea non liceat auferri In primis ergo Nicenum Symbolum à trecentis decem octo Patribus Niceae celebratum recitetur Legatur etiam ejusdem Concilii definitio ut idem Nicenum Symbolum immutabile ac immobile permaneret neminique fas esset aliam fidem proferre Sess 5. Quartum Concilium viz. Ephesinum definit atque determinat ut aliam fidem conscribere aut componere aut sentire aut docere liceat nemini Concilium 5. viz. Constantinopol idem definit qui aliud Symbolum docuissent anathemati subjiciunt Sic etiam 6. Concilium seu Trullanum priora Concilia dictum Symbolum amplectitur obsignat Sic etiam 7. ac ultimum generale Concilium Hactenus Marcus Ephes ibidem Ab anno 800. ad 900. 1. Theodotus Melissenus 2. Iohannes Sixtus 3. Photius All these three were Patriarchs of Constantinople as is acknowledged by Baronius an 835. n. 25. All zealous adversaries to your worshipping of Images for which Baronius there calleth the first Haereticum Iconoclastam an haereticall Image-breaker The second Haeresis promulgatorem acerrimum The third namely Photius held a Councell at Constantinople planè numerosum admodum Concilium it was a very full Councell in so much as Michael the Emperour gloried that it equalled the number of the Fathers of the great Nicen Councell teste Baron an 861. n. 1. This was accounted a Generall Councell by Photius and by Theodorus Balsamon Comenting upon it Sic ait Baron ibid. n. eodem In this Councell was condemned the worshipping of Images Ab anno 900. ad 1000. Nilus Calaber Habuit hoc saeculo Graeca Ecclesia duos doctrina sanctitate illustres Nilum Calabrum Niconem Lacedemon Baron an 900. n. 8. Nico. Lacedemon Hic non à Graecis solum sed etiam à Latinis inter Sanctos est relatus Baron an 961. Ab anno 1000. ad 1100. Simeon Armenus Vir Sanctus verae fidei Professor Baro. an 1016. n. 7. 8. Theophilactus Episcopus Bulgarorum He in his writings imitateth Saint Chrysostome but he is a Schismaticke saith Bellar. de scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis Ab anno 1100. ad an 1200. Euthimius Zigabenus who wrote against all Haeresies and upon the 4. Evangel Bellarm. de Scriptoribus Ecclesiae Theodorus Balsamon Who commented upon Photius his Nicene Canon and divers Councels He was an enemie to the Church of Rome saith Bellarm. Ab Anno 1200. ad 1300. Arsenius Patriarcha Constantin A man for vertue and the service of God not farre short of the highest perfection ut Nicephorus Gregor lib. 3. p. 31. edit Basiliensis an 1562. cum Caesarea Majest privilegiis Gregorius Patriarcha Idem Gregor l. 6 pag. 80. Ioannes Glices Patriarch also of Constantin a most learned grave wise man above all men Nicephorus Gregoras lib. 8. pag. 123. 132. Ab Anno 1300. ad 1400. Catechuzenus Pachimaerus Nicephorus Gregoras These three were Fathers of the 14 age saith Bzonius in the end of that age Tom. 13. in his Supplement of Baron his Ecclesiasticall History an 1299. They did teach contrary to the doctrine of the Haereticks so Baronius calleth us but I may truly say that the first and last of the three teach contrary to their faith and so the other professed or he could not be of the Greeke Church who deny the Popes primacie of power deny Purgatory Communicate in both kinds For Catechuzenus in the election of Iohn Bishop of Constantinople doth say that all Bishops of greater or lesser Cities receive equall grace Baronius addeth his owne Glosse saying True equall grace of Order not of Iurisdiction Nicephorus in his 10 booke disputeth at large against the Latine Church à pag. 230 ad finem ejusdem libri To. 6. Bibl. Sanct. pag. 99. Ep. ad lect To these I may adde Cabasilas whom together with Balsamon Genebrard calleth two famous Greeke Fathers for which words he is blamed by M. De la Bigne who calleth the same men Schismaticks and enemies to the Church of Rome Tom. 6. Bibl. Sanct. pag. 101. 102. Gentianus Hervetus another of your side doth write in defence of Cabasilas in his Preface to the Reader before Cabasilas his booke intituled A Compendious Interpretation upon the Divine Sacrifice extant dicto 6 Tom. Bibl. Sanctae pag. 159. But he is thus blamed by your De la Bigne Dealbat Aethiopem Gentianus labouring to excuse Cabasilas doth but wash a Blackamoore for it is manifest he was a Schismaticke that he burned with hatred against the Church of Rome and wrote an Haereticall Booke against Tho. Aquinas Yet he is placed by Bellarmine amongst his Ecclesiasticall Writers in a distinct Columne also of his Chronologie from Haereticks Ab Anno 1400 ad 1500. Marcus Ephesinus Insignis Theologus as hee is stiled in the Acts of the Councell of Florence Sessione 2. apud Surium Tom. 4. Laonicus Chalcondilas who being of the Greeke Church testifieth that the agreement made at Florence was not received in Greece lib. 1. de rebus Turcicis non longè à principio Thus have I finished my Catalogue of Greeke Writers having many more to insert if any just exception can be given against these I will conclude concerning them with these two Arguments the one to prove that they were of our Faith and Church the other to prove that they were not of the Roman Faith or Church thus All they that doe professe the Apostles Creed as it was explicated in the Nicene Councell that receive the Scriptures received by the Protestants that receive the foure first Generall Councels and the two Sacraments of Baptisme and the Eucharist under lawfull Pastors are of the Protestants Faith and Church But those Authors as all others of the Greeke Church did professe and receive the said Creed Scriptures Councels and Sacraments under lawfull Pastors Ergo They are of the Protestants Faith and Church The Proposition is A definitione ad