of them But seeing we are here constreyned vnto it by your slie and colourable answer therefore can we not but doe it for the clearer manifestation of the trueth and better discouering of your deceipt In which respects we entreat the Reader to take in good part and duely to weigh the rehearsall following Antichristian abominations yet reteyned in England 1. The coÌ„fusion of all sorts of people in the body of the Church even the most profane and their seed being members thereof 2. The retaining and vsing in their publique worship the Apocrypha books which have in theÌ„ much error vntruth blasphemie Magick contradiction to the Canonicall Scriptures 3. Their stinted prayers and Leiturgie taken out of the Masse Book with the same order of Psalmes Lessons Collects Pater nosters Epistles Gospels Versicles Respondes c. 4. The forbidding of Marriage in Lent Advent Ember daies Rogation week c. Which the Apostle calleth a Doctrine of divels 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 5. Forbidding of meats as of flesh to be eateÌ„ in Lent Ember daies Saints Evens Frydayes and Saturdayes throughout the yeare Another doctrine of divels noted in the scripture aforesaid 1 Tim. 4.1.3 6. The oath ex officio in the Ecclesiasticall courts making men sweare to accuse themselves 7. Their Pontificall or booke of consecrating Bishops and of ordeining Priests and Deacons taken out of the Popes Pontifical Antichrist corruptions yet had in the Church of England 8. Their intolerable abuse of the word of God therein 9. Their making and being made Priests with blasphemie the Prelates saying to everie one of them whom they make Priests Receiue the holy Ghost vvhose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven c. And they that are made Priests then humbly kneeling vpon their knees at the Prelates feet 10. Their confounding of civil and Ecclesiastical offices and authoritie in Ecclesiasticall persons 11. The offices callings of Archbishops 12. Lord-Bishops 13. Suffraganes 14. Priests 15. Half Priestes or Deacons as they call them 16. Subdeacons 17. Archdeacons 18. Parsons 19. Vicars 20. Curates 21. Vagrant and Mercenary Preachers 22. Church-wardens 23. Chauncellors to the Prelates 24. Deanes 25. Subdeanes 26. Prebendaries 27. Canons and Peticanons 28. Chaunters and Virgerers 29. Epistlers and Gosplers 30. Queristers men and boyes 31. Organ-players and blowers 32. Clerks and Sertous 33. Chapleines and House-priests 34. Doctors of Divinitie 35. Bachelours of Diuinitie 36. Doctors of the Arches 37. Proctours in the Prelates courtes 38. Commissaries 39. Officials 40. Registers 41. Summoners with the rest of that Antichristian and viperous generation 42. Their Ministration of the Word Sacraments Church-governement by vertue of the officer aforesaid 43. The titles of Primate Metropolitane Lords grace Lordship c. ascribed to the Prelates 44. The inferior Prelates swearing obedience to the MetropolitaÌ„ Seas of Canterbury and York 45. The inferiour Ministers wheÌ„ they enter into the Ministerie promising obedience to the Prelates their Ordinaries and wheÌ„ they are inducted to Benefices confirming it with their oath of Canonicall obedience 46. The preseÌ„tatioÌ„ of the Priests and Deacons to the Prelate by the Archdeacon when they are made Ministers 47. Their receiving of Orders at the hands of the Prelates or their Suffraganes 48. The Prelates Confirmation or Bishoping of childreÌ„ to assure them of Gods favour by a signe of mans devising Which is to malte a new Sacrament 49. The Crosse in Baptisme of like nature 50. The hallowed Font. 51. Questions at Baptisme to the infants that can neyther speak nor vnderstand 52. Godfathers Godmothers Their promising that the child doth beleev forsake the Divell and all his workes c. 53. Womens baptising of childreÌ„ Which mainteyneth that heresy That the Children are damned which dy vnbaptised 54. Their houssing of the sicke ministring the Communion to one alone 55. Their giuing it for two pence to all commers 56. Their ministering of it not with the words of Christs institution but with other taken out of the Popes Portuis 57. The receiving of it kneeling Which teacheth still to make it an Idoll and nourisheth that popish heresy of worshipping it receiving their maker c. 58. The King in mariage making it a SacrameÌ„tall signe mariage an Ecclesiasticall action thereby nourishing the Popish heresy that Matrimony is a Sacrament 59. Their Churching or purifying of women Which sauoreth of Iudaisme 60. The standing at the Gospell reading The putting of the cap and making a legge when the word Iesus is read 61. Their Saints Angels and Apostles dayes With their fasts and prescript service 62. The Gang-week praying then over the corne and grasse c. 63. Their praying over the dead at buriall So nourishing the Popish error of prayer for the dead 64. Buriall and the solemnizatioÌ„ of mariage c. made part of the Ministers duty 65. Their absolving the dead dying excommunicate before they can have as they call it Christian-buriall 66. The ring of peales at burials 67. Beadmen at burials and hyred Mourners in mourning apparell 68. The hanging of Churches and heerses with black to help forward theyr popish show off mourning at burials 69. The Idol Temples retayned vsed for the worship of God 70. The popish vestments as Rotchet Square-cappe Tippet Sâ—rplus in Parish-Churches and Coap in Cathedrall 71. The visitations of theyr Lord-Bishops and Archdeacons 72. The Court of Facultyes From wâ—eace are had dispensations Licences Tolerations c. 73 Dispensations to eat flesh at theyr tymes forbidden Which dispeÌ„satioÌ„s also haue this clause sana conscientia that is with a safe conscience plainely shewing that they make it a matter of conscience 74. DispeÌ„satioÌ„s likewise to marty in theyr tymes forbidden 75. Licences from the Prelates to marry in places exempt By meanes of which dispensations aÌ„d Licences is mainteyned that wicked practise that many are maryed without their Parents knowledge or consent Yea many ofteÌ„ stollen froÌ„ theyr frends and so marryed 76. Dispensations for boyes and ignorant fooles to haue Benefices and charge of soules 77. Dispensations for Non-residents 78. And plurality of benefices As the having of two three fower or mo even tot quot as many as a man will haue and can get 79. Patronages of and presentations to Benefices with buying and selling of advowsons 80. Theyr Iustitutions Inductions Prories c. 81. The Prelates Chauncelours CoÌ„missaryes Officials courts c. 82. Their power to excommunicate alone and likewise to absolve 83. Theyr Penance in a white sheet 84. Theyr commutation of Penance and absolving one man for another 85. Theyr Suspensions Deprivations Degradations c. 86. The Prelates Lordly dominion revenewes and retinew 87. The Priests maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. 88. The Popes accursed Canon Law 89. And the Prelates like Articles Canons Injunctions c. from tyme to tyme newly devised and published for the Lawes ruling of theyr Church according vnto them 90. The Church-wardens oath to present to the Prelates and theyr Courts all
discover error as it was at first to reveale the truth You pretend also 2 the opinion of many auncient and late learned godly Christiās and 3 their expositiō of the Scriptures so as herein they cary ambiguity in infinite Thousands iudgment To both which I answer 1. That great antiquity was alledged by the Samaritans Ezra 4.2 Ioh. 4.20 and is also by the Papists at this day for their Prelacy Priesthood worship and other their errors of Purgatory Masse Prayer for the dead mixing water and wine in the Cup Iustification by works Extreme vnction Transubstantiation c. And the Scriptures too are so expoūded as they carry no small ambiguity in these points in the judgement of infinite Thousands Pag. 44. 45. 2. I have also shewed before how even some of the Martyrs learned and godly Christians held divers of these popish errors vnto death And therefore doubtles so took and expounded the Scriptures as vpholding them 3. And be sure whensoeuer you bring the many auncient and late learned and godly Christians you speak of for your assertion that as many such if not far mo both auncient and new may he brought to the contrary And what then are you the nearer 4. But in deed I deny this which you say There is not testimony from such antiquity as you speak of for your Prelacy and the rest of your abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. If you can therefore shew it in your next And mynd as for the rest so for the Prelacy in particular that you shew it to be such as yours in office entrance administration maintenance c. For although ♣ the mystery of iniquity began to work betimes yet it was both withheld a while from being revealed 2 Thes 2.3.6 7.8 with Rev. 13.11 and coming vp out of the earth it appeared and was exalted not all at once but by degrees So as it was a long season in this rising of Antichrist ere the Prelacy came to that height which now it hath with you and in Rome the mother thereof Search and see if it be not thus And in the meane tyme because I know you haue a prejudice of whatsoever I say heare a litle what Mr Cartwright one of your selves hath written of your Prelacy against D. Whitgift now Archb. of Canterbury Our Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons c. saith he besides the names have almost nothing common vvith those of elder tymes Againe If those Bishops vvere alive they vvould not knovv ech other For that they vvould think ours Princes and ours would esteeme them as hedge Priests not vvorthy of their acquaintance or fellovvship T. C. first Rep. Pag. 124. c. and his 2. Rep. Pag. 660. And in the same place comparing them togeather he sheweth vnanswerably in many particulars how farre they differ the one from the other So as your Archbishop in this poynt also hath ever since ben at a Non plus Now if you please you may take your Archbishops quarrell in hand and strive with as good successe as he for these and the rest of your Romish traditions 5. Finallie remember on the one hand how our grandmother Eue at the first entring of sinne into the world insinuated ambiguity in the word of God which yet in deed was most cleare and plaine Gen. 3.3 with Gen. 2.17 And mynd well on the other hand if at this day the Papists themselves bring not greater show of Scripture for their grossest heresies of “ Iam. 2.21.24.25 Dan. 4.24 Mat. 25 35.36 Iustification by works †Mat. 26.26 Ioh. 6.51.53 Trāsubstantiation “ Iam. 5.14 Extreem vnction * 1 Tim. 3.15 Ioh. 14.26 16.13 Impossibilitie of the Church to erre c. then you or any other either have brought or can bring for your Prelacy and other impietyes before mentioned Shall we therefore conclude as you do that they are not easily convicted though they be mistaken in these things God having so disposed in his providence to suffer this among Christians so long and so vniversally God forbid Or shall we think that Ieroboam and the Iewes of whō you speak had not their pretences and excuses aswell as you and the Papists I have shewed before that they had Besides also as Moses and the Prophets were plaine against their corruptions so are both they and the Apostles as playne against yours As for example that there should be no forbidding of meats or mariage no read or stinted prayer no mens inventions to worship God by no Priests in office of Ministery neither any Lord Bishops but Christ onely no baptizing by women no Idoll Temples no Apocrypha books or prescribed Homilyes for the worship of God no Popes Canon Lavv or Prelates decrees to rule the Church by c. Compare now with these the Calves Images Priests and places whereof you speak and see if the word of God condemne not the one aswell as the other Mind also how against these Gods voice hath sounded in your eares by the testimony of his seruants from tyme to tyme and how his hand hath fearfully smitten you with hardnes of heart and given you over to false worship and persecution of the truth besides all other impietyes raigning among you Then which what greater judgement can there be in this life Consider also the example of Corah and his companions whom the earth swallowed vp and fyer devoured from heaven Num. 16. chap. 26.9.10 Whose case although it be handled and compared with yours in the Second Exception before Pag. 33. 52. 55. 3. yet because of the childish excuses which you shame not still to plead vnder pretence of vvant of conviction darkenes of the vvord vnto you c. and because ‡ Before Pag. 37. your self also do judge their case to be most wretched and altogeather inexcusable therefore will I here againe put you in mynd to consider well with your selves and to examine by the word of God whether your sinne may not be esteemed in some respects greater then theirs 1. The Office and function which they vsurped was a true one Numb 16.10 Yours false 2. The things which they took and offred were such as God had cōmanded vers 18. Yours such as man prescribeth 3. The people to whom they would administer were a true Church vers 2.3 Yours a false 4. The reasons which they alledged divers of them were more seeming-good then any you bring vers 3.14 5. They thought they did well and as was meet vers 3.13.14.18.19 You at least manie of you know and have professed that your Ministery and worship is Antichristian and therefore evill and abominable 6. They had not the written word so as you have vers 5.7.9.10.28 c. Lev. 8. 9. chap. wiih Heb. 1.1.2 2.2.3 7. They sinned in one thing vers 10. You in an hundred 8. They were twise or thrice admonished and reproved vers 4.5.8 c. You ten tymes 9. They stood vp against Moses and Aaron vers 3 You
with the Articles IniuÌ„etioÌ„s Aduerticements and Caueates in that behalf prouided If any preach the word of God any further they are subiect to be sileÌ„ced banished and put to death That these things accord with the ordinaÌ„ce of Christ or with your owne description of a visible Church I suppose your self will not for shame affirme it Lastly in your description it is required That the Sacramentes be duely ministred according to the ordinance of Christ in all things that of necessity are requisite to the same Now by the ordinance of Christ in the administration of the Sacraments there are necessarily required 1. A lawfull Minister 2. A lawfull people 3. A lawfull administratioÌ„ according to the Testament of Christ In al which your practise is contrary to the ordinance of Christ and your owne description aforesayd Your Ministers all of them are either Prelates Priestes or Deacons which among you is a step to the Priesthood none of which Christ hath ordeyned in his Testament for the work of his Ministerie Your people are not separated from the world See Iohn 15.19 17.14 1â— but stand in confusion with it and in subiection to the Antichristian Prelates and Prelacie and therefore cannot be deemed a true Church of God and the people of Christ vnto whome in such estate the SacrameÌ„ts which are seales of the couenant of grace doe apperteine and may be administred 1 Iob. 4 â— 5 Act 2 40. and 19 9. Rev. 18.4 and 14.9 Finally your administration is according to the inventions and precepts of men with sâ—inted prayers exhortations Epistles and Gospels and besides these in Baptisme crossing on the forehead and questions to the infant in the Lords supper translating and vsing out of the Masse book other words theÌ„ the words of Christes institution and such like as may be seen at large in your book of common prayer which is picked and culled out of the Masse book full of abominations as * Admonition to the Parlament your selues haue confessed heretofore These things we haue ben forced thus to mention at large both because you twise demaund as if you knew not your selves wherein your practise is contrarie to that description aforesaid and because you blush not to affirme that all the ChristiaÌ„ world seeth and confesseth your practise to be agreable to your profession in that book Whereas the contrarie is most true Touching which what your selues haue heretofore written to the contrarie See in the Admonitions to the Parliament Replies of T. C. against D. Whitgist Demonstration of Discipline c. And what the reformed Churches professe to the contrarie see in the French Belgicke and Heluetian Churches in the Harmonie of confessions SeÌ„ct 10.11 Thus also appeareth what iust cause we had to put you to proue your assemblies to be such as your selues describe visible Churches to bee Which seeing you haue not yet done and seeing your practise is contrary to your profession as now at your request we haue shewed in the particulars aforesayd If you still be minded as before we do also still aske where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in your owne description of a visible Church Your similitude of a Landlord and Tenaunt is against your selues so worthy and Clerklike is your Reply If any haue vsurped or otherwise made a false claime never so long to a peece of land or other possession may they not iustly be called vpoÌ„ to shew their title and bring forth their euidence Let the Iudges giue sentence If you deny your claime to be such shew your euidence from the Apostles writings Let vs froÌ„ thence see your evidence for the offices of Archbs Lord bs Archdeacons Priests ParsoÌ„s Vicars c. For your entrance into these offices according to your Canons and book of ordering Priests c. For your administration by your scinted imposed Leiturgy and by your Popish Canons Officers proceedings c. For your maintenance by Tythes Chrisomes Offerings c. For your confused communion of all sortes of people though never so wicked in the body of your Church c. Let vs I say see evidence for these from the Apostles writings if you denie your claime to be such as we haue noted Otherwise if you speake not according to this word ‡ Esay 8. â—â— it is because there is no light in you neither any right to that you challendge Where you say vve held part of your possessioÌ„ vvith you hertofore If you meane that we with you receiued the beastes mark and drunke of the cup of Babels abominations we deny it not but acknowledg Gods mercy that passing ouer our sinnes hath giuen vs grace and strength “ Rev 18.4 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Act. 2.40 at his coÌ„maundement to forsake that way of Antichrist and to come out of that spirituall Babylon to the saluation of our soules Which mercy we wish also to you that being saued from that froward generation you may become the sonnes and daughters of the Lord almighty Touching your Article Preaching Sacraments MinistratioÌ„ c Ynough is said before Onely where you say you see not your selues vvherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary It is too impudent vntruth as your ‡ AdmonitioÌ„ to the Parlament T. C. his replies in defeÌ„ce thereof DemoÌ„stration of discipline Defence of Ecclesiasticall discipline c. former writings doe and will alwaies testifie to your face which we will not stand here to relate That shall suffice which we haue touched before which till it be aunswered the Exception hath both reason and weight in it whatsoever you doe or can pretend to the contrary H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 1. Excep HEre is much adoe to no purpose You obserue 4. pointes in our Article omitted by me wherein our practise is contrarie to our profession First our Article requireth a visible Church to be an assemblie of faithfull men But our ossemblies say you are not so This is false they are so you shall neuer proue in vs the contrary more then appeareth was in the Church of the Iewes both Auncient and in the time of Christ and yet they than were the true Church As I haue elswhere in this book sufficiently proued and shewed against you That which you bring of D. VVhitgift and other writers amongst vs of the prophanesse of many in our assemblies you depraue their meaninges vtterly for though they graunt very many such to be amongst vs yet they say not that all our assemblies are such nor our whole assemblies Neither denie they our assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be separated from Nay the contrary do they euen that onely they ought to be reformed Therefore you too grosly abuse them Secondly The Article requireth the pure word of God to be preached But say you the Apocrypha books and reading of Homilies and other errors are allowed in our practise Yea surely and in our profession too as your self obserueth
notwithstaÌ„ding God saveth some LutheraÌ„s Anabaptists Papists erring in the points aforesaid If you denie it let vs have a sound aunswer to that profession of the Papists touching Christs Mediation which by themselves is mentioned in their Annotations vpon the new Testament where they professe that they hold * Rhemâ—â— Annot. vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Christ by nature to be truely both God and man to be that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his bloud as a ful and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes himself without need of any redemption never subiect to possibility of sinning againe to be the singular Advocate and Patrone of mankind that by himself alone and by his owne merites procureth all grace and mercy to mankind in the sight of his Father none making any intercession for him nor giuing any grace of force to his prayers but he to all none asking or obteyning eyther grace in this life or glory in the next but by him This doe even the Papists professe which you are well to mind Now though with it they hold divers fundamentall errors as in that and other their writings may be seen by which the multitude of them is turned out of the way of truth and salvation yet doubt I not but by this faith God hath saved some of them and mo at the first creping in of that Churches apostasie then since who in simplicity so beleev as is here set downe never hearing of the other opinions to be errors nor withstanding any truth revealed vnto them Now of the LutheraÌ„s and Anabaptists I hope so much the better as they hold mo truths and fewer errors then the Papists But to let those alone what say you to such of the Fathers of the Greek Church as held Freewill an errour which ‡ D. VVhiâ— book pa. 83. your selves teach and have published to be fundamentall and of it self damnable Or rather what say you to the Israelites in Egypt who though they were * Exod. 4.22.23 Gods church yet sinned in points by your owne account fundamentall even with ‡ Ezech. 20.6.7.9 the Idols of Egypt Will you say they were all condemned Either therefore we must discerne between the errors themselves what they are in their owne nature being so considered and between the persons holding them of ignorance and weaknes what mercy God may shew them in Christ or els you will coÌ„demne all of every Church wheresoever any fundamentall errors have crept in being through ignorance generallie received and so inwrap the Martyrs in like condemnation with their persecutors To give instance but of Iohn Hus it cannot be denied but he and they who martyred him agreed both in one touching the Masse transubstantiation c. Yet was Hus a faithfull witnes of Christ in the truth he saw and his adversaries vassals of Antichrist that sonne of perdition This I trust will suffice for the present to cleare the Martyrs of that vniust condemnation which you insinuate against them Now vpon this occasion note also that not onely some who erre in fundameÌ„tall points may be saved as is proved alreadie but ‡ 1 Cor. 6.9.10 some who erre not in any fundamentall point as you take it yet shall perish notwithstanding But of this see more hereafter in the handling of the 7. Reason following Further where I said that when Mr. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. dyed Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had themselves nor joyned in communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministerie now pleaded for You insult greatly as if I spake knowen falshoods But stay a while Maister Iacob and see if it be not your self that make no conscience of vntruths First why ‡ Pag. 36. left you out those wordes of mine when they dyed Did you perceive that these words make the case plaine and witnes the truth with me against your assertion Or know you not that all the Martyrs then were first excoÌ„municate out of that Church and if they were Ministers degraded also from their Ministerie afore they were put to death Must it not needs then be true which I sayd that when they dyed they neither had nor ioyned in communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Yea say not the Martyrs themselves and the book of Acts and MonumeÌ„ts as much To name but one Laurence Saunders when the Bishop of London had disgraded him said vnto him ‡ Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 1301. â— I thank God I am none of your Church And this was the case of them al being likewise dealt with as that book witnesseth Your Exception that Mr. Cranmer and Mr. Ridley stood vpon their right to their Bishopricks is of no waight against that I sayd It is not vnknowen that men do often stand against the vniust dealing of their adversaries in such things as notwithstanding they are willing inough to leave Whether it were so or not with them God knoweth Of this I am sure that where I spake of their not hauing you do in your Reply in steed thereof speak of renouncing And so you change my speach Which is not good though it be your vsuall dealing But yet by this appeareth that you can prove no vntruth in my speach howsoever you pretend and would gladly do it For if you could what needed you so alter and pervert the sence of my wordes And for my self if I had meant that Mr. Cranmer and Mr. Ridley had renounced as you pretend I could have joyned them with others in the sentence going before where I spake of Mr. Latimers forsaking his Prelacy which your self do here confesse to be true Besides I spake of the time when they dyed Martyrs you of the time before that But now what will you say to Mr. Ridley who as the * Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 1604. a. storie witnesseth at his degradation being bid to put on the surplus refused to do it and when they did put it vpon him with “ This vvas because he had ben a popish priest al the trinckets appertaining to the Masse did vehemently invâ—y against the Romish Bishop and all that foolish apparell calling him Antichrist and the apparell foolish and abominable yea to fond for a vice in a play This giveth more evidence of renouncing then of approving those things which before time he had liked to much Yet I denie not but even then he might be ignorant of the vnlawfulnes of the Prelacy as since that time God hath revealed it by his word and by that meanes it may be did like and stand for it more then otherwise he either ought or would have done But you say whosoever were Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they never renounced it though they dyed Maryrs If this were true and of waight you might by the same reason as well plead for the Romish Priests at this day
in such case as Ieroboams was who altered but the outward ordinances of the Church as taking them to be things arbitrary at the pleasure of man Some of them I doubt not wil think you do them foule iniurie And if anie be done vnto you it is done by your self I say no more In the fourth likewise who is it of your owne Church that will not think you offer yet more iniurie both to the State and your self To the State in that you make them maintainers of Popish shifts To your self in that thus you bewray you are at a Non plus and yet yeeld not to the truth Did not your self in your first Replie vse these as good and soūd reasons And now they are convinced to be Popish have not a word to speak in defence of them but put vs over to the State for an aūswer Babell is sore wounded when all her best Physitians do thus give her over For the fift you referre vs to the first point of your explication before Which is aunswered For the sixt you referre vs to the second Which also is aunswered Neither is there any thing of waight in either of the places whither you send vs for aunswer of the particulars here conteined Let others mind if you will not what I said in the fifth and sixth aunswer before and see if your explications have any thing against them to any purpose The seventh you confesse to be against the state of your Church This I wish the Reader to marke And then having minded what I aunswered in the * pag. 34 seaventh place let him consider how wofull the estate of your Church is But now M. Iacob why defēd you not your Church seeing this is against the verie state of it by your owne confessiō Is not your book called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Why do you not then performe what the title of your book doth promise A worthie Champion sure you are to defend a Church that leave it thus in extream miserie without anie succour at all At first you seemed as if you would strike all downe afore you in defence of your Churches and Ministerie Now lo you can be content to leave them on the plaine field to shift for themselves so your self may have hope to scape by running away Before you told vs of the defence of your Churches Now you think it inough to say It is against the state of our Church and not against me Yet tell vs Mr. Iacob are you not a member of that Church And is not that then which is against the state of your Church also against you Otherwise it must needs be that your Church hath a strange estate or that you are a straunge member thereof Can the hand or eye say I am not of the bodie Or that which is against the state of the bodie yet is not against me Yet such is your aunswer as sencelesse as absurd Besides that thus whiles you think to pull your owne neck out of the collar you plunge both your self and your Church deeper in And note withall Howsoever you and such like disagree from the state of your Church in anie thing yet in this you can all agree well ynough to conspire against Christ and against his Church But so it hath ben of old Manasseh * Esa 9.20 21. and Ephraim though they were each against other were both against Iudah The Pharises and Sadducees though adversaries one to another yet ‡ Mat. 2◠15.23 Act. 5.17 handed togeather both of them against the Lord Iesus Hitherto of the seaven particulars I obiected Which all of them remaine vntaken away And thus far of the second exception and your Replies against it In which I have staied the longer because the discussing hereof will more plainelie and without all question end the controversie between vs. Chap. 6. The third Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforseid Fr. Iohnson Thirdly shew by Scripture how the 36. Article of your doctrine and book alledged agreeth with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitie The wordes of the Article are these as followeth The Book of consecration of Archbishops and Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons doth conteine all things necessary to such consecration and ordering neither hath it any thing that of it self is superstitious or vngodly And therefore whosoever are consecrated or ordered according to the Rytes of that book we decree all such to be rightly orderly and lawfully consecrated and ordered Also how it agreeth with the Gospell and true Christianitie That the Apocrypha books and Homilies are enioined to be read in the Church by the Ministers diligently and distinctly As may be seen in Art 6 and 35. of that doctrine and book aforesaid H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur third Exception is this That the 36. Article of ordaining Bishops Priests and Deacons Also the reading of Apocrypha bookes and Homilies in the Church agree not with true Christianitie Ergo the Assumption aboue is false that is the vvhole doctrine of that booke of Articles is not sufficient to make vs true Christians I aunsvver you should have said those poincts destroy vtterly true Christianity Ergo c. Els the Argument follovveth not But then vve denie flatly the Antecedent or first part of the Reason But your Reason you vvill say shall goe as you have put it Then marke these reasons even as good as yours and all one An Ethiopian is vvhite of his teeth therefore he is a vvhite man A Svvanne is black of his bill Fr. Io. therefore a Svvann is black * Note that Mr. Iacob hath added this since he received aunswer to the former It was not in the copy before Such also are almost all his notes in the Margent and some alteration in his Replies specially in his first Reply to the Seaventh Reason following Let the Reader observe this dealing My Brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a vvodden legge therefore my brother is no true man Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Excep VVHat the third Exception is you see Have you now as was before required of you shewed these things by the Scriptures Not at all First then marke that although wee call neuer so much for proof and evidence from the Scripture yet you neuer bring it but labour to put it off with other shifts and deuices As if our consciences were to be built vpō your fancies and not vpō the written word of God But what do you say to our demaund First you tell vs these thinges do not vtterly destroy true Christianitie Next you graunt notwithstanding that they agree with it as black doeth with white that is they are cleane contrarie vnto it For this your similitudes doe import Where you alledge That these things destroy not true Christianity we answer that euen that Hierarchy worship cōstitution and gouernement which you professe and practise as appeareth
Disciples who also were Iewes observed them not and therefore the Pharisees complained Thus you see they were not received of all the Iewes as heretofore I shewed not onelie in the Disciples but in divers other by name Pag. 84. Of whom you cannot denie but it is true They were the personall sinnes of some not the publik established Law neither generallie received and practised in that Church as I noted yours to be in your Assemblies that is of all the members thereof Neither is there anie comparison between yours and theirs as besides that which I have shewed before may appeare even by the vvaterpots here mentioned by your self Of the lawfull or vnlawfull vse whereof I need not stand to speak it being evident that they were no waie so vnlawfull or of such nature as your corruptioÌ„s are Let this then which hath ben said suffice to shew how true and pertinent my aunswers be That there is no contrariety between anie thing spoken here and in the sixt Reason following the Reader may see And that it is your self who do evill and defend it too there need no other witnes but the title and contents of your book togeather with your estate Concerning the thing which here you obiect I have proved alreadie that * Mat. 15.9 this and ‡ See before Pag. 83. other Scriptures being spoken of vaine worshippers in the true Church have ben and may be alledged much more against all vaine worship in the false Church whether it be yours or the Papists or anie other whatsoever And saie your self if the Martyrs have not both ben perswaded that the Iewes were a true Church and yet alledged this Scripture against the Papists as against a false Church Are these contrary I pray you that they need be reconciled Then do you reconcile them for the Martyrs For sure I see no need of it Chap. 9. The third Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF the whose doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by Law in England be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that together with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Governement of the Church devised by man even the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holie ordinance and appointment of God himself to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie Worship and Governement aforesaid never was so but is mans device in religion even Antichrists that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ The Assumption is proved Gal 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that held not onelie such trueths of the Gospell as are in that book of Articles but more then those Yet if they should withall submit to Circumcision he saith they vvere abolished from Christ Christ vvould profit them nothing H. Iacob his first Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuely to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our Englâ—sh holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But a Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We ansvver We denie the Assumption Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If you obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ. That is in deed some amongst them as held Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutlie to salvation as Act. 15.1 And that †Gal. 5.3 4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Iustification vvas by the morall vvorkes of the lavv Novv the Churches of Galatia generallie vvere not such but held the saving faith sound doubtles though manie amngest them vvere tainred vvith that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that vvere crept in and too vvell interteined among them Hovvbeit vvith the Church Communion vvas kept and therefore so vvith vs you ought to deale If you say vve are vvorse Christians then those grosest Galatians It is vtterly false prove it if you can and it must dravve in Maister Cranmer c. vvith vs also If you say there are many amongst vs as bad or vvorse then those vvorst Galatians you may say it but prove it you cannot Also if it vvere so yet this disgraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath ben sayd of the Galatians Fr. Io. his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Reason YOur first answer is that you deny the Assumption Which in plaine termes is asmuch as if you had given the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2.3.4 As in the proof of the Assumption was shewed before But for the more evidence of the truth I will set this downe in a Syllogisme thus If a Galatian submitting to Circumcision though he hold all the truths of the Gospell professed in EnglaÌ„d withall yet be notwithstanding abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter And yet the former you deny that is the Assumption Therefore you give the lie to the holy Ghost who affirmeth it Next you aunswer that the Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal 1.2 Therefore say you this Reason is nought But you may not thus runne away with the matter and deceive your self and your simple favourers The question is not Whether any Galatians vvere true Christians or any of their Assemblies true Churches For who ever doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truths of the Gospell novv professed in England and vvithall submitting to CircuÌ„cisioÌ„ vvere in that estate a true Christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those AsseÌ„blies then in that case were by Gods word to be deemed the true Churches of Christ The Apostle testifieth and saith No You say Yea. Now whether of you two it is meet wee beleeve let all men iudge But what is it then will you say that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true Churches Gal. 1.2 You shew the reason your selfe the light of the truth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed and of such onelie is the supposition made in the case aforesaid But the Churches of Galatia generally were not such but held the saving faith sound This also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ And therefore although there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes among them which is the †1 Cor. 11.19 Act. 20.30 lot and triall of the Church of God in all ages yet was there not cause to break Communion with those Assemblies but
erected visible Idols 1 Kin. 12.28 and very filthy ones even calves and brute beasts The same you might alledge of the Israelites with Aaron Exod. 32.4 whose sinne notwithstanding was directlie against the Second commandement as you confesse yours also is Besides Mr Iacob have not you and your Church too your visible Idols What els I pray you are your Service book your books of Canons and Homilies your Book of ordering Priests and Prelates taken out of the Popes pontificall your Idoll-shepheards Zach. 11.17 even the Prelates and Priests themselves such as to whom for any sound knowledge they have in themselves or good instruction they give or receive of others may fitly be applied that saying of the Prophet concerning Idols They have a mouth and speak not they have eyes and see not Psal 115.5.6 they have eares and heare not c. Where in the next place to lessen your sinne in respect of Ieroboās you say you professe your Ecclesiasticall orders to be but indifferent things for order and comelines onely how absurd againe and shameles is your pretence Do you in deed professe that your Book of common prayer with the other aforsaid are but indifferēt things for order and comelines only If so then are they not the true worship and service of God commāded in his word to be observed of his Church For that is not an indifferent thing but straitlie enjoined to be kept without spot or chaunge vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Exod. 20.4.5.6 1 Tim. 6.13.14 Col. 2.8.22.23 Rev. 22.18.19 Againe do you professe the confusion of all maner people in the body of your Church to be an indifferent thing for order and comelines onely If so then you might aswell tell vs you professe darkenes to be light disorder and confusion to be order and comelines c. Or do you professe that your Archbishops and other Prelates and Priests with their offices and callings taken out of the cup of Babylon your forbidding of meats and mariage called by the Apostle doctrines of Divels your retaining the Apocrypha Books in your publik worship Pag 63. c which have many lyes and great blasphemy in them Do you I say professe that these with the rest of your abominations ‡ before rehearsed are but indifferent things onely for order and comelines And is this in deed the profession of your generall State as ‡ here you note in the margent Then sure you are not far behind Ieroboam Pag. 110. if not far worse in some respects And by this it is evident to note it by the way that your generall State is conuinced of great impietie inasmuch as howsoever it stood for the controversy otherwise yet none can be so grosse as to deny but thus far you are convinced that these are not indifferent things c. You had need also look well about you what to aunswer for speaking in such maner of your generall State Now for Ieroboam what will you say if he also held this as the chief and mayne thing ♣ that the true God who is infinite and every where present be worshipped but whether at Ierusalem or at Dan Ioseph Antiq Iud. lib. 8. cap. 3. whether in Salomons Temple or at the Calves which he had now made whether by the Levites or by others consecrated to that service c. that these and the like he accounted and vsed as indifferent things as might seem best to serve for the opportunity of their dwelling for that estate c. See Iosephus Antiquityes if he do not testify thus much concerning him affirming further that by these meanes he deceyved the people and drew them from the true worship of God which in the end was the cause of their vtter ruine Lo here the fruit and yssue of such pretences Further you alledge 2 Chron. 11.15 Where Ieroboam is said to appoint Priests for the high places and for Divels and for the Calves he had made So have you also appointed Priests such as God never ordeined and that for your high places and Calves that is for your Idols Temples and Service the places and maner of your publik worship to this day Of which three points viz your Priesthood Idoll-temples A treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England and false worship I have written in another treatise to which I refer you Where it is said Ieroboā appointed Priests for Divels you are to know if already you do not that this is spoken mystically in respect of Gods account and as it was in deed not that Ieroboam and the people did so think and esteem it themselves And that you may have lesse preiudice of this which I say heare it of Peter Martyr who writeth thus of it Ieroboam and his complices said they worshipped not the Calves but Iehovah in that figure visible signe but the Scripture in the Chronicles witnesseth their imagination to be frustrate because in deed they did that service not to Iehovah but to Divels P. M. Lo. com p. 1130. Epist ad Eccles peregrin Lond. I will also help you to vnderstand this point by a like example to which I suppose you will yeeld The Papists in Gods account are worshippers of Divels Rev. 9.20 Yet in their owne judgement they do not so but pretend to worship God himself Even so it was with Ieroboam Further for the more clearing of this matter see what it is in deed thus to worship Divels And heare it of Mr Iunius whose judgement I know in this case you will judge lesse partiall He in his notes vpon Lev. 17.7 saith thus Men sacrifice to Divels if they sacrifice eyther in other place or after other rite and maner then the Lord hath prescribed See Deut. 32.17 1 Cor. 10.20 And this he sheweth was the sinne of the Iewes both in Egypt and in the wildernes first by Exod. 32. chapter then by ‡ Lev. 17.7 this verse where the word hereafter or no more is vsed and lastly by Stephens testimony Act. 7.42 Ieroboam then worshipped Divels not in his owne purpose and judgement but in Gods account because his worship of God was in other place and after other maner then the Lord had apppointed Now seing you graunt this here to be true of Ieroboam how will you denie it either for the Papists from whom you have borrowed your worship or for your selves the children of their fornications And that you may see it is a thing needfull to be mynded in your Church-constitution note for your selves that * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 the erroneous doctrines of Antichrist are by the Lord accounted and in the Scripture called doctrines of Divels †Rev. 9.20 the worship of Antichrist the worship of Divels ♣ Rev. 16.13.14 the Ministers of Antichrist the spirits of Divels ‡ Rev. 18.2 the confusion of all prophane people and abomination in the body of Antichrists Church and religion the habitation of Divels c.
And “ afterward vpon the 16. of the Revelation Ibid. vpon Rev. 16.12 expounding the drying vp of the waters of Euphrates to be this That the welthy Popes possessioÌ„s and pleasurs of the Clergy their false feates once known are and shal be cleerly taken away from them He saith thus In England by the ♣ Marke by this of vvhat time estate he speaketh even of such vvhen the Gospell vvas preched the Monasteries suppressed c. Gospell preaching have many of these waters bene dried vp in the suppression of the monasteries prioryes couents and Friers houses yet are not all things brought vnto Christs cleare institution A syncere Christian order cannot yet be seene there And a great cause why For all is not yet dried vp there The Bishops reigne still in asmuch vaine glorious pompe with as many Heathnish observations as ever they did as cruelly harted and as bloody mynded are they yet as ever they were afore No mischief vnsought to hold in the waters Marke how Winchester Durham Yorke London and Lincolne worke let vs also adde Canterburie with such other pleasant disposed Euphratines But be of good confort and pray in the meane tyme. For the holy Ghost promiseth heer that they shall wither away with all that the heaveÌ„ly Father hath not plaÌ„ted All which generatioÌ„ will the Lords breath coÌ„sume c. And to speake also of others in former tymes Iohn Wickleff held †Actes and Mon. 5. edit pag. 414. b. That Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons Officialls Deanes Canons c. be disciples of Antichrist William Swinderby said * Ibid. pag. 431. b. that what Pope Cardinal Bishop Prelate or Priest in manner of living or teaching or Lavves making contrary to Christs living his Lavves or any other ground put in ruling of the Church of christ but by Christ and his Lavves is very Antichrist adversarie to Iesus Christ and his Apostles Sir Iohn Oldcastle Lord Cobham witnessed ′ Ibid. â—ag 518. a. b. that the Bishops Priests Prelates and Monkes are the body of that great Antichrist And that the possessions and Lordships of the Clergy are the venime of Iudas shed into the Church Iohn Claidon burnt in Smithfield professed ‡ Ibid. pag. 588. b. that the Archbishops and Bishops speaking indifferently are the seats of the beast Antichrist when he sitteth in them and reigneth above other people in the darke Caves of errors and heresies And that the Bishops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the beast that is Antichrist Finally * In his treatises called The obedience of a Christian man The practise of prel William Tindall and “ In his Preface before his Antithesis betvveen Christ the pope Iohn Frith published That Archbishops Lordb. Archdeacons Deanes Officials Parsons Vicars and the rest of that sort are the disciples of Antichrist yea very Antichrists themselves These are the speaches and testimonies of the Martyrs in former ages wherevnto divers other such like might be added But these may suffice for the matter in hand Now compare therewith the publique profession and practise of England even as it is by law at this day and see whether your owne proofes be not so many witnesses against your selves But if it were so that the reformed Churches vve our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme gave allowance of your present estate and Church coÌ„stitution what would this help you when as the vvord of God condemneth you as we have shewed in the Reasons aforsaid and defence thereof Wherevnto if you will still iustifie your estate we require direct answer from point to point and that from the Scriptures which only can stablish the conscience Furthermore that the truth it self and your estate may better appeare what it is as also that you may not turne away or obscure the truth by your shiftes and evasions as your manner is I will here propound a few questions concerning the points now in controversie desiring your plaine and syncere answer therevnto by the word of God as you will answer to him at that day The questions are these Seven questions conteining the vvhole controversy betvveen vs yet vnansvvered 1. Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last testament given vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices with their Callings Workes and Maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guidance and service of his Church to the end of the world or no 2. Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Helpers be those offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as aforesaid Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops Lordbishops Suffragans Deanes Prebendaries Cannons Petticanons Priests Deacons Archdeacons Doctors of divinitie Batchelers of divinitie Chaplens or Housepriests Commissaries Officialls Proctors Apparitors Parsons Vicars Curates Vagrant or Mercenarie preachers Churchwardens Side men Clerkes Sextons and the rest now had in the Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies be those Offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as is aforsaid or no 3. Whether the Calling and entrance into these Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid their Administration and Maintenance now had and retained in England be the manner of calling administration maintenance which Christ hath appoincted for the offices of his Church above named or no 4. Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world and the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of God and ioined togeather in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ And whether the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies of this Land be such or no 5. Whether the Sacraments being seales of righteousnes which is by faith may be administred to anie other but to the faithfull and their seed or in anie other ministery and manner then is appoincted by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession And whether they be not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies of England at this day 6. Whether the Book of Common prayer with the Feastes Fasts Holy dayes stinted prayers and Leiturgy prescribed therein and vsed in these Assemblies be the true worspip of God commaunded in his word or the devise and invention of man for Gods worship and service 7. Whether all people and Churches without exception be not bound in Religion only to receive and submit vnto that Ministery Worship order which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appoincted to his Church Or whether any may receive and ioine vnto another devised by man for the service of God And consequentlie whether they which ioine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministery worship and order of the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies can be assured by the word of God that they ioine to the former ordeined by Christ and not to the latter devised vy man even the man of sinne for the
AN ANSWER TO MAISTER H. IACOB HIS DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministery of England By Francis Iohnson an exile of IESVS CHRIST Though myne Adversary write a Book against me would I not beare it vpon my shoulder would I not bynde it for crovvnes vnto me Iob. 31.35.36 Printed in the Yeare of our Lord. 1600. The Title and inscription of Mr Iacobs book because there is often relation vnto it hereafter both in the Preface and in the Book it selff therefore I thought good here to insert it at first Thus it was word for word as followeth A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND Ministery of England Written in two Treatises against the Reasons and obiections of Mr Francis Iohnson and others of the separation commonly called Brownists Published especially for the benefit of those in these parts of the lovv Countries MIDDELBVRGH By Richard Schilders Printer to the States of Zealand 1599. To the Christian Reader grace and peace from our Lord Iesus Christ THere came out of late good Reader two books from one Mayster Henry Iacob a Priest of the Orders of the Prelates The first was agaynst his Lord Mr D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester concerning Christs suffrings and descending into Hell The latter agaynst me by name and others like mynded tovvching the Church and Ministery of England Now although the Prelates could not well be offended at him for publishing the former agaynst the doctrine of theyr Church senig * In K. Edvv tyme about 50. Yeares synce long before him Mr Carlill a learned man had both publikly disputed in Cambridge and printed a book agaynst that error of Christs descension and that with great approbation of the most godly and learned at that tyme Yet belike fearing the worst and knowing the hatred of the Prelates how deadly it is he did presently after send forth his other book in defence of the Churches and Ministery of England So as whatsoever displeasure his Lords the Prelates conceyved agaynst him for the former there was now some hope that they might sooner be appeased vpon view of the latter Or howsoever it should fall out yet what like lyer way could he take to make all sure on his side then by the first book to get the forward Preachers and professors to take his part agaynst the Prelates and by the other to have both them and the Prelates themselves to stand with him agaynst vs Yet I heare some of his owne coat give out that he hath dealt very simply in publishing so weak and raw a Treatise against vs. And true it is in deed that his Treatise is such In the publishing whereof no wisedome hath he shewed at all vnles it be in this that he hath thus let all the world see that against the errors of the Church of England there is plenty of Scripture to be had and vrged but not a jote to be found for defence of theyr VVorship Ministery constitution c. For if you mynd it †Yet I deny not but he hath scattered some errors also in that book in his book against Bilson about the question of Christs suffrings and descending into Hell you shall see proof after proof readily brought from the word of God And on the contrary in his book against vs not onely no such proof but in stead thereof eyther his owne assertions and comparisons obtruded vnto vs as oracles or the Names of Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley and other dead men opposed to the word of the living God or putting over his cause to the State to be defended himself being not able to speak one poore word in defence thereof c. Such is his latter book and such are the grounds of it A very great and straunge difference between two books set out by one and the same man the one straight after the other and both of them in matter of Religion If I had first published these Replyes and Aunswers which passed between vs no doubt but many would have had a prejudice thereof and all would have thought I had done it purposely to shew the weaknes of that cause and falsehood of that Ministery c. But now when he a member of that Church yea a Minister of it even a Priest of the Prelates creation hath first published them albeit the same thing be done yet it is both without all prejudice and pretended by him for defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Be it that he hath not done it so well as many would have it yet it is the best he could And what if he thought by this meanes eyther to stirre vp some others more able herevnto or at least to shew his owne good will Doubtles where there is want of ability a mans good will is to be accepted And why should any then misinterpret so good a meaning If any of the Prelates or others of that Church like it not they may learne by his example iff not to lay theyr hand on theyr mouth yet to try if they can plead the cause any better For worse I suppose they would be ashamed to do it I had thought in this case I should never have seen any more absurd writing then Mr Giffards and Bredvvels But now to Mr Iacob may they well give place And iff any can be found of all the Priests in England more sencelesse then these let such for theyr worthynes as standerd bearers be Prelates of theyr chiefest Seas And as for Mr Iacob seing he hath done his best let all men be content to beare with his simplicity who otherwise might well note his folly for vndertaking ius how the defence of that which yet in deed he leaveth altogether naked and helples By the title of his book it seemeth he thought to carry away the simple Reader who eyther could not or would not mynd what should follow after it In the book it self he thinketh his plea to be very good if he can say for the Ministery and other abominations of theyr Church They are errors but not fundamentall sinnes against the Second commandement but not vtterly abolishing from Christ c. And this is the summe of his whole book A plea which he counteth vnaunswerable Yet in deed no other but such as openeth a wide doore for all maner errors and sinnes to be receyved and nourished amonge them which themselves shall presume not to be fundamentall c. So that now theyr Church is ready when they please to entertayne agayne the offices of Abbats Monks Fryers Nonnes Cardinals c. the doctrines and practise of Auricular confession Prayer in an vnknovven toungue Prayer for the dead Seven Sacraments Holy vvater holy ashes holy palmes holy bread Creame spittle oyle and salt in Baptisme Consubstantiation Deniall of the cup to the lay people Denyall off vvarres and Magistracy in Christians Denyall of Mariage in Ministers c. For these and many mo errors of the Papists Lutherans Anabaptists it is like they hold not to be fundamentall And therefore
although theyr Church receyve them yet is Mr Iacobs defence as sound for them then as it is now Neyther may any for these or the like separate from theyr Church worship or Ministery if you will beleev him Yet note that for proof of this assertion you must let them take day For as yet they can shew you none And what now if any of the errors which the Church of England at this day retayneth be fundamentall What will Mr Iacob say to that Then agayne he is at a flat Non plus and all his book is not worth a rush save that it yeelds vs the cause and graunts theyr Church to be a false Church aÌ„d theyr people to be no true ChristiaÌ„s in that estate For this therefore see what is sayd in the Treatise hereafter following Pag. 22. 114. 147. 148. What also if D. Bilson should aunswer Mr Iacob for that poynt of Christs descension into Hell as he aunswereth vs for theyr Church corruptions that though it be an error yet it is not fundamentall yea and that they in K. Edvvards dayes held it Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Would Mr Iacob take this of his word or think it a sufficient warant for the holding thereoff or bynd others to be likewise mynded c. But to let this passe let Mr Iacob mynd well the estate and practise of theyr Church but in such particulars as I have named hereafter Pag. 63. 64. 65. and then let him aunswer as before God Are they lawfull or vnlawfull Are they of Christ or Antichrist Of God or the Divell Lead they to heaven or hell May they be found in the Word and Churches of God or in the Popes Churches Canons Portuis Pontificall May they any maner way be approved and communicated withall or are they not wholy and with detestation to be refused and abhorred For aunswer hereof I will wayte till Mr Iacob reply agayne And in the meane tyme I will now aunswer what he and his Prefacemaker have already published Where first I desier the Reader in both of them and in Bridges Bancroft Bilson Hooker Sutcliff and all such writers of that Church to mynd these three things 1. That all theyr reasoning and perswasions are no other but such as may lead men eyther backe agayne to Popery or the ready way to Atheisme or at least to receyve whatsoever religion the Prince pleaseth so themselues account it not to be fundamentall Thus are they all blynd guydes Thus do they all teach to continew in sinne Thus do they shut vp the kingdome of heaven before men neyther entring in themselues nor suffring them that would enter to come in 2. That they do even set themselues to carpe at the truth it self and at the mayntenance and practise thereoff To which end they vse they care not what objections and abuse they care not whom 3. That they never do so much as offer to bring proof from the Scripture for theyr estate and practise See the particulars afterward rehearsed Pag. 63. 64. 65. And mynd iff there be any of them all that in any book they have written have brought warrant for them from the word of God Onely D. VVhitgift made an assay for some of them but he was so taken downe by Mr Cartvvright as he was glad to lay downe the bucklers which synce that tyme neyther himselff nor any other durst take vp And now Sutcliffe himselff can tell them iff Mr Cartwright have the better hand of D. Whitgift that then the Church of England is no true Church of Christ and that there is iust cause to departe and separate from it Sut. Engl. b. Pag. 228. These things noted I do now come to Mr Iacobs book and first to the Preface which his fellow and frend at a need hath prefixed before it Where I will for more evidence of the truth and stopping of theyr mouths first set downe his owne words as I do also Mr Iacobs afterward in the book it self and then make aunswer vnto them He that made or wrote the Preface subscribeth his Name thus D. B. And thus he beginneth it The Publisher to the Christian Reader Section 1. ABout Three Yeeres since Maister Iacob having some speach vvith certen of the separation before mentioned concerning their peremptory vtter separation from the Churches of England vvas requested by them briefly to sett dovvn in vvriting his Reason for defence of the said Churches And they vvould either yeild vnto his proofes or procure an ansvver vnto the same VVherevppon the Argument follovving this Preface vvas set dovvne in vvriting by maister Iacob vvhich the said parties did send to Maister Fr. Iohnson being then prisoner in the Clinke in Southvvark vvho made an ansvver vnto the same conteyning 3. Exceptions and 9. Reasons in denyall of the Assumption vvherevnto Maister Iacob Replyed Aftervvard Maister Iohnson defended his sayd Exceptions and Reasons And finally Maister Iacob Replyed againe As by the particulars themselves appeareth The Aunswer These two letters Geuev Scot. Allobrog Disc Pag. 7. D. B. I fynd to be set for Doctor Bancroft now Prelate of London in a * shameles book of his not long synce sparsed abroad In which respect as also considering many as godles things here agayne published albeit some might think it were therefore to be ascriâ—ed vnto him yet for other causes partly appearing in the book partly knowen of the man I thinck this Preface was not made by him but rather by another †Daniel Buck D. B. a Scrivener of London a man that hath turned his coat and forsaken the truth as often as †Doct. Pernâ— D. P. the old turne coat did if not also oftner He it was that by letters desired of me to aunswer Mr Iacobs Argument as here is said being himself at that tyme separated from the false worship and Ministery of England to which vomit he is now againe returned wallowing in that â—â—yer from which then he was washed Then also he could say himself thought Mr. Iacobs Argument was frivolous and of no waight and that his desier with some others was to have it answered for the stopping of Mr Iacobs mouth who thought it vnaunswerable Herevpon I made answer vnto it and as there was occasion by Mr Iacobs doubled Replyes have aunswered agayne and agayne I have also for sundry causes consulted with others therein and namely with Mr Henry Ainsvvorth Teacher of our Church my work-fellow to the kingdome of God approved in Christ At London 1593. and Mr Daniel Studley another off our Elders who hath given vp his life for the Name of our Lord Iesus Christ being first * adâ—udged to death afterward exiled c. And now vnto thee good Christian Reader I exhibit the whole Treatise conteyning beside that which was published before my aunswer also to Mr Iacobs second and last Reply that thou mayest try the matter by the word off God and as it agreeth therewith so to receyve it and no
of themselues raylers murmurers malicious covetous presumptuous lascivious hypocriticall vnstable discontended and such like persons alledgeth the Prophecyes Scriptures examples which were before of them in Enochs tyme of the vnbeleuing Iewes the Sodomites evill Angels Cain Balaam Corah c. Iud. Epist vvith Gen. 3.1 and 4 3-16 and 19 1-25 Numb 14. and 16. and 22. chap. c. Now in these as in the rest and many other so alledged in the Scriptures may divers differences be observed Yet are they all notwithstanding fit and pertinent for that wherevnto they apply them Neyther can any be ignorant but that there will be difference eyther of time place cause sexte persons things maner or such like circumstance in any allegations and yet they be pertinent nevertheles It is not materiall then though some differences might be noted between the case of England and theyrs of whom those Scriptures speak seing notwithstanding they do fitly prove that for which they are alledged Let the Reader also mynd here an old Popish shift whereby they labour to turne away the evidence of any Scripture that is vrged against theyr corruptions viz by noting some difference between theyr case and such as the Scriptures alledged speak of This you may see every where in theyr Rhemish notes on the New Testament and in all the rest of theyr books and defence of theyr Church and religion But now further to make the abuse of his lips yet the more manifest marke that the very Scriptures here mentioned by himself speak not onely of the vvhole body and povver of Heathen and Antichristian religion as he pretendeth but of every particular ordinance and vncleane thing belonging therevnto For thus they speak expressely Tovvch no vncleane thing Keep all myne ordinances and all my iudgements Be ye cleane Partake not in her sinnes c. By all which is most plainely forbidden all maner of partaking not of the whole onely but of every parcell of Antichrists or any other false worship whatsoever As to the second difference which he noteth here of theyr vvilfulnes rebellion obstinacy partaking vvith the lavvfull and good things vsed among them c. it is handled and answered in the Treatise following Pag. 42. 43. 88. 108. 130. 132 161. 170. 171. 175. 180. The particulars which he citeth out of the Evangelists towching the Iewes are the speaches and testimony of reproof given vnto them by Christ whē now he threatned to take away from them his kingdome because of those sinnes and other the like among them Mat. 21.43 This man himself knoweth we never doubted but true Churches might fall into errour and the members thereof walk corruptly in which respect they are subiect to be reproved And yet notwithstanding the Church constitution and functions be lawfull and ioyned withall vntill they refuse the voyce of Christ and will not be reclaymed Rev. 2. and 3. Math. 21. and. 23. Act. 2. and 13. and 17. and. 28. chap. Wherevnto when once they come then are all taught to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation Act. 2.40 and 13.46.47 19.9 Esa 8 12.-16 Now if we may separate from such as have ben true Churches when they so fall into sinne and persist as is aforesayd notwithstanding that otherwise they professe many Doctrines of truth how much more may and ought we to separate from all false Churches which stād in the apostasy of Antichrist that Man of sinne howsoever they professe some truth withall 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4 Ezech. 16.44 But of the difference both of the estate and dealing with true Churches and false compared together as also of the weaknes and falsehood of this māner of reasoning which here he vseth I have other where spokē sufficiently both in this Treatise following to which he referreth vs Pag. 92. 161. 195. and in another already published viz. A Treatise of the Ministery of England Pag. 45. 61 62. Note withall that none of the Evangelists neyther any other Scriptures do shew that Christ or the Prophets did at any tyme communicate with the Iewes in any evill but alway reproved them Whereas it is not possible that any should communicate with the Church of England though it be in theyr best things even of the Ministery of the Word Sacraments Prayer etc. but they must needs partake in evill As namely with the Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion and other sinnes of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Let him shew the contrary in any one thing among them iff he can And of this also see more hereafter Pag. 170. 171. 180. Finally let him tell vs if he have said any thing here which they in K. Henry the eight his dayes might not have alledged when the Popes supremacy with much of his religion besides was cast out of the Land and yet they oppugned the truth in many things and became drunken with the blood of the Martyrs notwithstanding D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 5. Obiection But vnto the examples of these Churches me thinkes I heare already that common aunsvver and last refuge of theyrs vvhich is this Those Churches say they were in a true outward constitution And therefore were the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding those grosse errors which they held in other poincts of doctrine and practise But contrariwise say they the Churches of England have a false outward constitution and therefore they are no true Churches of Christ notwithstanding theyr truthes of doctrine c. Ansvver So the outvvard constitution is the maine poinct on vvhich they vvholy depend and for vvhich they vvholy condempne the Churches of England from being true Christians in state of salvation VVhich I doubt not plainly to take avvay 1 And first concerning the constitution of the Ievvish Churches If vve should examine the same vve should finde that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Tvvo high Priests having by simonie crept in at once vvhich vvas vnlavvfull and contrarie to Gods ordinance notvvithstanding their gloses in their other ‡ ‡ 9. Reasons vvritinges to allovv them to be lavvfull by * * 2 Chrō 24 2.3 Zadok and Abimelech and by ††2 King 24.18 Seruiah the chief Prieste Zephaniah the Second vvhich make against themselues For there vvas never but one high Priest as they confesse * * Ansvver to Mr Hild. Pag. 50. Ergo not tvvo as here vvere the rest vvere indeed inferior to him And yet amongst those there vvas a chiefly also vvho vvere called sometimes Second Priests or Priests of the Second order 2. King 23.4 and sometimes chief Priests Math. 27.1 These Scriptures being compared vvith those in the margin by them cited doe make it more plaine Novv if the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through couetousnes as the Histories make mention It is not likely that the inferior offices did remaine sound but vvere asmuch or more altered The Priests generally being such couetous
vvicked persons theyr offices beeing very gainefull and besides they liuing vnder the authoritie of the Heathirish Romans vvho ruled ouer them All these things considered it is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution on vvhich they so much depend vvere vvholy altered from the right institution and therefore vvould make nothing for them As for theyr allegation of Mat. 23.1 VVhere they say Christ testifieth that they had true offices by saying they satt in Moses chaire It vvill not help them any vvhit at all For Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chaire must be vnderstood of somevvhat else themselves ‡ ‡ Mr Barrovv Mr Greēvvood in diuers Letters and Treatises have vnderstood it heretofore of Moses doctrine The Aunswer Do not they erre that imagine evill And doth not a deceyver speak lyes Prov. 14.22.25 What then may we think of him that counteth it a small thing to lye against Man if he do not also open his mouth against heaven and give the lye to the holy Ghost himself See both in this man here Against vs and I feare against his own conscience he forgeth a lye when he sayth vve do vvholy depend on their outvvard constitution c. For he knoweth we obiect against them besides and separate from them for much false doctrine publikly taught and mainteyned among them and for theyr wretched persecution of the truth and Martyrs of Iesus Therefore do we not wholy depend on theyr outward constitution From which it is to be noted that he severeth theyr publik doctrine as himself sheweth in the next Section and so therefore here we speak accordingly And that he knoweth these things appeareth both by this Treatise first published by himself where we have declared it in divers particulars Pag. 66. 108. 157. 158 159. 160. and in that himself hath seen and alleadgeth in this very Section another treatise written in answer of Mr A. H. where mo instances are given concerning this matter As may be seen in that book Pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. 22. 23. 37. 90. 91. To the holy Ghost he giveth the lye yea and maketh Christ our Lord a sinner in that which here he speaketh first of the constitution of the Ievvish Churches For the Scripture teacheth that the constitution of that Church was a true one and that Christ did himself communicate therein with them Yet this man besides that he sayth afterward that it is very likely the offices and outvvard constitution thereof vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Euen here at first he sayth peremptorily that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Which how shamefully false it is may appeare even by this that in those very tymes the estate of the Iewes Church yet was such as they were a people separated from the world having the true Ministery ordinances worship and administration which God by Moses had commanded As these Scriptures do plainely testify Luk. 1.6.8 9.10 11. 2.22.23.24.27.46 Mat. 8.4 Ioh. 1.19 4.22 5.1 11.55.2 Tim. 1.3.5 Yea they would not at any hand admit eyther of confusion of people or of any other Ministery then God had ordeyned As may be seen for the first in Act. 21.28 29. and for the latter in Iob. 1 19-25 Mat. 21.25.26 How shameles then is it to say as here he doth that theyr constitution was as greatly altered and corrupted as that of the Churches of England which to this day stand confused of all sorts of people aswell the prophanest as the best among them and have no other Ministery or Leiturgy but such as they have receyved from Antichrist the man of sinne and from Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 And further if the Iewish Church had ben thus corrupted as he feareth not to affirme how could Christ have communicated with them as he did but he must needs have sinned ād that highly against the Law of God viz. if he had as it is now in England joyned to such a Church as were vnseparated from the World or had partaken with a false Ministery or had sent others to a straunge Priesthood and Service or had approved by word or deed any other ordinances then those which God had commaunded c. This Scribe then must eyther approve the Church-constitution of England by the word of God or els confesse that it and the Iewish Churches are in this poynt nothing alike or if neyther of these that then Iesus Christ was a sinner Of whom the truth itself and work of our redemption testify that he knew no sinne at all but was like to vs in all things sinne excepted 2 Cor. 5.21 Heb. 4.15 7.26 This man then doth thus also both blaspheme the Sonne of God and make the holy Ghost a lyar But there were he saith tvvo high Priests at once vvhereas by the Lavv of God there should be but one 1. If it were so albeit thus they offended in the number yet still there was that office and function of Priesthood which God had ordeyned not a new one of mans devise as is the whole Hierarchy of England from the hyest Archbishop to the lowest Parish Priest And so there is no comparison between these two 2. This was the personall sinne of the men not the constitution of that Church neyther of the Offices wherein they were See it in another example Iudas an Apostle of Christ yet betrayeth him Doth it therefore follow that his office of Ministery wherein he was set by Christ himself was vnlawfull Nay that was the sinne of the Man not of the Office wherein he was What is this then to the question in hand when as the Ministery of England is charged to be straunge vnlawfull false in the very offices and functions thereof Yea and this man himself doth here by the whole course of his speach graunt as much 3. Is there any thing here said for the Priests and constitution of the Church of England which the most popish Priests Prelates Monks c. may not aswell alledge for theyrs Is theyr Ministery or constitution therefore such as man be ioyned withall 4. See how straungely these men forget and contradict themselves T. G. first Reply Pag. 83 84. Mr Cartwright writing against D. Whitgift saith If the vvhole practise of the Church vnder the Lavv be looked vpon it shall not be found that any other ecclesiasticall Ministery vvas appointed then those orders of hy Priests and Levites c. vvhich vvere appoynted by the Lavv of God And further that as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any straunge doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true do rine vnder the Name of any other function then vvas instituted by God Yet this man with an whores forehead shameth not to perswade that the offices and outvvard constitution of that Church vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Thus
false Church And contrarily Thirdly I aske Is not the Hierarchy and Church constitution of Antichrist the most detestable anarchy of Sathan that ever was And doth not Sathan far more commonly and readily part with his false doctrine then with it when he must needs part with the one 2 Thes 2.9 and yet can retayne the other He is subtill and of long experience he can mynd and knoweth full well that so long as he holdeth his owne constitution of a Church he can quickly vppon any opportunity bring in his doctrine agayne even with a trice For why He hath both the people ready for the receyving of it being yet still in the confusion and bondage of Antichrist and his owne Ministery also to be imployed in the publishing and serving thereof theyr Offices Callings Ministrations Maintenance being all ready at hand and fit for the purpose Whereas on the contrary when the false constitution is abolished then false doctrine wanteth both hee woonted place of receipt and her nimble wings by which she should spread and fly abroad And here I could alledge for proof hereof the prefer Ministery and estate of the Church of England which being of Antichrist Sathans graundchild and he now having spyed his tyme and found some opportunity beginneth apace by this meanes to bring in agayne such doctrines of his as had for a tyme ben suppressed As namely Free-vvill Auricular Confession Christs soule to descend into Hell The Church of Rome to be a true Church c. Witnesse the Books and publik Sermons of Bilson Bancroft Hooker Androes Harsenet Barret and other the Priests and Prelates of that Church the Marchants of these and the like wares off the Beast in Court City Countrey Vniversity and where not The same thing you may mynd also thus So long as the house standeth still and is furnished with servants and Ministers it is ready for the implements and furniture though removed for a tyme to be brought in agayne and soone to be set vp in theyr woonted place And if you would see an example of these things yet in memory look but at the Churches estate in K. Edwards and Q. Maryes dayes compared together The popish constitution of the Church being not abolished in King Edwards tyme how soone was the Popes doctrine yea and his supremacy in Queen Maryes dayes spread and acknowledged throughout the Land Yet the same doctrines of truth were in K. Edwards tyme published and receyved which now are in England And very like also that it was then with more zeale and love of the truth thē now it is specially considering the generall coldnes of men and the cruell persecution of the truth to which this age synce is come Mynd further that the Offices houses and maintenance of the Fryers and Nunnes being before in the time of K. Henry the eight quite taken away they were not able in all Q. Maryes raigns to reare them vp agayne No albeit they iudged them lawfull and necessary aswell as the other poynts of Popery and did also very earnestly desier and labour to have them reestablished So great a matter it is to have a thing abolished in the whole constitution thereof Even as when an house is rased and pulled downe to the very foundation And here vpon this occasion let me also aske Whether if the Callings and Livings of the Prelates and Priests together with the Idoll Temples and confusion of all maner people in the body of the Church now had in England were so dealt with as the Abbats Monks Abbeyes and Nunryes then were there would not fewer Iesuites and Seminaryes come into the Land Popery lesse increase treason against her Maiesty be lesse attempted and finally all the meanes and hope for the full replanting of Antithrists religion agayne in that Church be vtterly removed and taken away Let this Scribe then go and perswade such as himself that the outward constitution of the Church is but as the tithing of Mynt Annise and Commin c. Whosoever have theyr 〈◊〉 exercised to discerne good and evill will playnely see that notwithstanding any thing he pretendeth yet it is and ought to be accounted among the waighty matters of the Law of God Yea that it is of far other importance and consequence then most men think or will yet be perswaded albeit even experience the Mistresse of fooles might in all this tyme and tryall have taught them sufficient if ynough were ynough for men In cases of Religion Now for his Reason here any may see by that which hath ben sayd that it is very frivolous and of no waight at all The Proposition or first part hath nothing for the ground of it but that which is in question and neyther is alway true nor can be yeelded vnto for very great and waighty causes here before declared Vnto which adde these also 1. That many errors in doctrine are and may be far lesse then the errors of the outward constitution when they are truly compared together 2. That the true outward constitution of the Church alway implyeth both a separation of the people from the World and the joyning of them together in the fellowship of the Gospell and both these to be voluntary Which particulars being considered with the former will teach him not barely to set downe but duly to prove the Proposition in his next Reply The Assumption or second part of the Reason is in some fence true in some sence false and in both against himself and their Churches estate When Churches are set in the constitution and way of Christ if afterward they fall into some errour of doctrine they are notwithstāding for the former to be reputed true Churches vntill being admonished they refuse to heare the voyce of Christ and to yeeld to the truth Thus the Assumption is true and of vs confessed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes c. But when theyr case cometh to be such as they will rather abide in errour then obey the truth and voyce of Christ this so wilfull persisting simply overthroweth such a company from being a true Church in such estate And thus the Assumption is false and so proved to be by the example of the said Churches And both wayes it is agaynst him and theyr Church as will yet further appeare by that which is now to be spoken of his question wherein he would be resolved He asketh VVhat if a company of Arrians Anabaptists or Papists should be gathered and established in a true outvvard constitution and still retayne theyr fundamentall errors before named VVhether then their outvvard constitution should make them a true Church Yea or no. I aunswer 1. Not onely false constitution but false doctrine also retayned make a false Church If it were so then that they could have a true constitution as he supposeth yet by reason of theyr false doctrine they should be a false Church 2 I aske also of him Whether these companyes of whom he speaketh
sinnes not to rest in any of his vnrighteousnes neyther to towch any vncleane thing at all 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4.5.6 Isa 52.11 2 Cor. 6.17 Yea in that very * Iudg. 2.3 Scripture which is here quoted by himself the Angel of the Lord joyneth with thorne to their sides destruction by there Gods that is by their worship and religion But they hope God vvill in tyme abolish them And so do we have too Yet we must remember that the Scripture sayth this abolition of them shal be by the Spirit of the Lords mouth a I 〈◊〉 of his Gospell in the testimony of his servants 2 Thes 2 8. Rev. 12.11 14.6.7.8.12 It is not then the yeelding vnto them but the witnessing against them by which we can hope it faith for the abolishment of them Neyther do we doubt but they being thus discovered God will also stirre vp the hearts of Kings and Rulers of the earth as already in part he hath begun to hate that whore of Babylon with her abominations and to make her desolate and naked Rev 17 16. Yet too before they come to do this they have given theyr power and authority to the Beast aÌ„d have also fought but not prevayled against the Lambe Iesus Christ and them that are on his side his called and chosen and faithfull witnesses Rev. 17.13.14 Therefore dare not we runne into theyr extremityes to allow eyther by word or deed the corruptions of Antichrist that Man of sinne to receyve in our forehead or hand the print of his Nauie or marke of his ordinances to pursue to death the witnesses of Christ or any way to approve thereof c. But we wayte the appoynted tyme of the Lord for the full abolition and redresse of all these impietyes And in the meanetyme through the grace of Christ we witnes against them Yet being both thankfull to God for any truth they hold and sory also that with it they joyne the abominations of the Man of sinne and do so set a wall between the Lord and themselues 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 17.5 Ezech. 43.8 Where he sayth they hold most excellent truths and doctrines of salvation as soundly as any Church vpoÌ„ the face of the earth albeit by this it might seem they have very yll neighbours and for so large comparison due proof also may well be desired yet for the present I will but aske how this speach of his agreeth with the testimony of others among them men of far riper iudgement and better discerning who have testifyed of theyr estate and published that * DemoÌ„stration in the Preface to the Reader Albeit many nations vvhich have renounced the vvhore of Rome are heynously sinfull against the glorious Maiesty of Iesus Christ yet there is none in the vvorld so far out of square as is England in retayning the Popish Hierarchy first coyned in the mystery of iniquity and that filthy sinke of the Canon Lavv vvhich vvas first invented and patched together for the confirmation and increasing of the Kingdome of Antichrist Also that with them “ Mr Gilbyes book Pa. 29 many religions are mixed together off Christ and Antichrist of God and the Divell That †Letter to Mr Hooker Pag. 4 vnder the shevv of inveighing against Puritanes the chiefest poynts of Popish blasphemy are many tymes and in many places by divers meâ— not obscurely broached both in Sermons and in VVriting That ♣ 2 Ad non to Parliam Pag 6. although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout great daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth coÌ„prised in the book of God * Ibid. That theyr ovvne Iniunctions Articles Canons c. may not be broken or offended against but vvith more danger then to offend against the Bible That ‡ Ibid. the Bible must haue no further scope then by these it is assigned That * Demonstr in the Prefa to the Gover they give leave to a man to be any thing sauing a sound Christian That †Admon to Parliam Pag 21. theyr publik Baptisme is fâ—ll of childish and superstitious toyes That “ Mr Gibâ—yes book Pag. 2. they eat not the Lords supper but play a pageant of theyr ovvne to blynd the people and keep them still in superstition to make the silly soules beleev that they have an English Masse and so put no difference betvvixt truth and falsehood betvvixt Christ and Antichrist betvvixt God and the Divell Thus do the best of them professe and testify of theyr estate Shall we then think as D.B. would perswade that there is not any Church vpon the face of the earth vvhich doth more soundly retayne the truth and doctrine of saluation God forbid Or doth he meane as Mr Hooker a rare conceyted man of the Prelates crew speaketh of the Church of Rome ♣ Hookers Ecclesiast Policy Book 3. Pag. 130. that it doth still constantly persist in mayne parts of the Christian truth and is of the family of Iesus Christ Yea * Ibid. Book 5. Pag. 188. that it is doe vnto her to be held and reputed a part of the house of God and a limme of the visible Church of Christ If such be D. B. his meaning here for theyr Church yet this doth but verify the Proverbe which sayth As is the Mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 But no matter so long as he can with an hard forehead pretend that theyr errors do not simply ouerthrovv the truth neyther are held of obstinacy but are also for the most part off great controversy and disputation among the learned Yet marke that he saith for the most part Of them all belike he will not speak it Or if he should might he not likewise plead for the holding or intertayning agayne of Auricular Confession Seven Sacraments Setting vp off candels Reservation of the Sacrament Denying of the Cup to the common people Images in Temples for ornament or remembrance Monks Fryers Nunnes c. Or will not the Lutherans when they are driven to a straite thus alledge for themselves Yea doth not * P. Maâ—t Loc. com Epist ad Pereg Lond. Pag. 1128. c 〈◊〉 against whom Peter Martyr did therefore write very sharpely thus plead for the very Anabaptists And will not Hooker think you pretend as much for his Romish Bethal Or doth he it not in deed when he sayth even of Transubstantiation ‡ Hoâ—k Ecclesiast pol. book 5. Pag. 1â—6 that it is a thing vvhich no vvay can eyther further or hinder vs hovvsoever it stand And “ Ibid. Pag. 186. that the very thing vvhich separateth vtterly and cutâ—eth of cleane from the visible Curch of Christ is playne apostasy direct deny all vtter rejection of the VVHOLE ChristiaÌ„ faith as far as the Sonne is professedly different from infidelity Now compare with this also Mr Iacobs Replyes following Pag. 57. 101. 105. 109. 141. 156. 192. And see if theyr plea for the
Church of England be not off the the very same stampe with Mr Hookers for the Church of Rome Thus what by the Prelates and theyr Proctors on the one hand and these Pharisaicall dawbing Reformists on the other theyr case is come to be such as all may iustly feare least the end of that Church will be to look back not onely in part but euen wholy to the Romish Egypt and Sodom and to wallow agayne in the same myer from which they would seem aâ— this tyme to hâ—â—â—e â—en washed For it is just with God to make such eate the fruit of there owne way and to fill them with theyr owne devises Prov. 1.31 And what other thing do the books pretences practise and declining of all sorts both Ministers and people among them â—â—rtend Yet Lord thou God of power and Father of mercy work better things for them and among them if it be thy will To that which D. B. pretendeth next of keping communion vvith them in things lavvfull it being likewise objected by Mr Iacob I haue answered in the Treatise ensuing Pag. 88. 170. 171. 180. Here onely I aske First what one lawfull thing they have that we have not Secondly in what one thing which he counteth lawfull we can have communion with them in that estate and not sinne against God by partaking withall in the apostasy of the man of sinne Of all other things it is most like he will say that we might heare many comfortable truths taught by theyr Preachers and many good prayers conceyved by them Yet such is their case as we can not do this neyther but we must needs partake with the Ministery of Antichrist all theyr Preachers even the best being Priests and Deacons so made by the Prelates Of which see more in the latter Treatise following Pag. 188. c. Not to speak here any further of it or of theyr Book-worship taken out of the Popes masse-Masse-book according to which they administer the Sacraments marry bury pray c. or of the compulsion of all maner people even the most wicked to be members of theyr Church or of theyr Church discipline being in the hands of the Prelates and by the Canon Law or finally of the severall offices entrance ministration maintenance of theyr whole Hierarchy To none of which can any joyne or submit in any part of Gods worship but they must needs partake in evill even in the sinnes of Babylon and of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Such is their constitution and such is the standing of all that continew therein Of his last pretence tovvching diversity of judgement by reason whereof he would perswade to keep communion with them I have spoken * In the Ansvver to Section 3. here a litle before To which now I will adde this onely that his collection herevpon viz. that we should therefore keep communion with the Ministery and confusion of Antichrist for of what els speaketh he if he speak to the poynt in question is most absurd and vngodly And will not Hooker think you for his Christian Papists and some such as Hadrianus for the Anabaptists perswade likewise And what then are we the nearer Or what will these men do in the end hereof Ier. 5.31 This then is not rightly to vse that diversity of judgement wherevnto in many things all Churches and Christians in deed are continually subiect here on earth but ignorantly to abuse it But herevnto it may be ‡ Da. Buck. this man was driven eyther by weaknes of iudgement in himself or by eagernes of contention and malice agaynst vs of whome he hath sometymes ben but now for his revolting from the truth and so persisting is according to the * 1 Cor. 5.4.5.11.12.13 1 Tim. 1.19.20 Mat. 18.17.18.20 Scriptures and ordinance of Christ cast out from among vs and delivered vnto Sathan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Which mercy the Lord Almighty vouchsafe him in Christ from whom he hath declined vnto Antichrist And this is all the harme I wish vnto him or any such even theyr repentance and salvation in Christ Iesus Hitherto of the Preface prefired to Mr Iacobs book Which I have answered somewhat largely from poynt to poynt rather for the satisfying of others then for any waight I judged to be in it my self Now it is tyme that I returne to Mr Iacob himself and deale with him in particular by whom I am spoken vnto and challenged by Name almost in every page of his book As if he had forgotten the old Proverbe which sayth Let not him boast himself that girdeth his harness as he that putteth it off Here then seing that this discourse came first from him to the view of the world and that also without my aunswer to his last Reply let the Reader call to mynd that which is written He that is first in his ovvne cause is iust then cometh his neighbour and maketh inquiry of him Prov. 18.17 So as he now having told his owne tale first and seming to some no doubt to be iust therein it is nedefull that I therefore come in the next place and make inquiry of him Which I do in the Treatise following submitting it now to the judgement of others to be examined of all by the word of God 1 Cor. 2 12-16 1 Thes 5.21 By it therefore do thou ChristiaÌ„ Reader try all things therein and keep that which is good Have no prejudice I pray thee eyther of Mr Iacob or my self but heare vs both speak and then consider what is spoken on eyther side from poynt to poynt And the Lord give thee vnderstanding in all things There is but one way of truth to life eternall And that is in no other but the Lord Iesus Christ Ioh. 14.6 who hath said I am the vvay the truth and the life If therefore the Churches of England as now they stand be in that good and old way prescribed by Christ wherein the Primitiue Churches were planted by the Apostles then doubtles then are in the way of truth that leadeth vnto life Yet this hath not Mr Iacob shewed in all his discourse Ier. 6.16 But now on the contrary if the Churches of England in theyr estate have in the Ioynes off the Church of Rome and with it departed from that auncyent and good way of Christ and do even vnto this day stand in the apostasy of Antichrist and that in theyr publik Ministery worship ordinances confusion of people c. then can they not so standing be assured by the word of God that they are in the way of truth which leadeth vnto life but in the by-wayes of errour which cary headlong to death and perdition 2 Thes 2.3.10.12 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 13.11 17.1.2 22.18.19 vvith Exod 20.4.5 For which cause all the people of God are bound to separate from them and not to partake in any of theyr sinnes least they receyve also of
their plagues Rev. 18.4 And if it be well mynded Mr Iacob himself howsoever he pretend otherwise yet in deed yeeldeth thus much when he is driven to confesse that theyr constitution is such * Pag. 37. 61 69. 70. 84. 154. as they stand in error and that of Antichrist against the Second commaundement in vayne vvorship departing from and denying the faith in their Ministery c. But for these and all the rest thou mayest see and I pray thee good Reader well to mynd the Arguments Replyes and Aunswers following From the reading whereof I will not not now any longer hold thee The God of peace tread Sathan vnder thy feet and by his word and Spirit lead thee into the way of truth to the conservation of thy soule vnto life eternall And if thou reapest any fruit of my labours give prayse vnto God and pray for me the weakest of his servants and vnworthyest of the witnesses of Iesus The grace of our Lord Iesus Christ be with thy spirit Amen Thyne in Christ Fran Iohnson AN AVNSWER TO M. H. IACOBS ARGVMENTS AND REPLIES concerning the Churches and Ministery of ENGLAND Chap. 1. Of the Title of Maister Iacobs Book which is thus A DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministerie of ENGLAND FRAN. IOHNSON his Aunsvver THe defence of the Churches and Ministery of England were an enterprise worth the taking in hand if Maister Iacob effected in deed what the Title of his Book pretendeth in show But he that readeth his book and mindeth it well shall find him promise mountaines and performe molehils Let the sequell shew it Now I would that Maister Iacob should speak himself without stammering what Churches and what Ministerie of ENGLAND he defendeth All or some only It is a poynt needfull to be knowen and mentioned All may see it would giue great light for deciding the controuersy betwen vs. And who would not think he should readily declaer it Yet he flies from it every where Therefore that he may not alway so doe but may be drawen to answer directly vnto it as also for the Readers better help and more clearing of the truth I wil particulerly and as plainely as I can describe how the Churches and Ministerie of England are to be considered And thē expect his aunswer If I be mistaken or if maister Iacob and such as liue in that Church who therefore haue better occasion to know it can do it more fully and plainely I shal willingly heare it In the meane time this is my iudgment First for the Churches to consider them as followeth 1 In respect of the Conuocation-house which consisteth of the Prelates and some other of the Priests assembled togeather with them And so they haue but one Church in the Land And that when there is a Parliament or like occasion I take it also that out of this Church the Prince the Nobles and people are excluded Saue that when they haue determined their matters they haue for some of them the consent of the Parliament 2 According to the number of their Archbishops and so they haue two Metropolitan Churches vnder which all the rest are subiect and cōprised 3 According to the number of their Arch and Lord Bishops and so there are about 26. Churches comprehending all within their seuerall Diocesses Hither also I referre the Cathedrall Churches 4 According to the ecclesiastical Courts of the Archbs. Lordbs Chancelors Archdeacons Commissaries and Officials vnder which all the other Ministers and people stand subiect and so according to the number of those Courts there may be some 200. Churches or thereabout 5 According to the number of the Parish assemblies of which all stand mēbers and so ther are many thousād Churches in the Land Hitherto of the Churches The Ministery may be considered two wayes Eyther more generally as they are all Priests or Deacons or more particularly as they are superiour or inferiour Superiour as Archbishops Lordbishops Suffraganes Deanes Archdeacons and the rest of that sort Inferiour as Parsons Vicars Curates Stipendary Preachers Houshold Chapleynes and the like Then in al these consider fower things 1. their office 2. their entrāce 3. their Administration 4. their maintenance This for the Ministerie Now let M. Iacob tell vs in his next 1. whether he defend all these Churches and Ministerie of England or but some of them 2. If not all but some only which then they are that he defendeth and which he leaveth as vtterly vnlawfull without all defence 3. For those he defendeth let him show in what place and pages of his book we may find the defence of them For whether it be that I perceyue it not or that he doth it not of this I am sure for my self that I cannot find in al his book so much as any one of them defended As others find let thē speak And to put al out of doubt let M. Iacob shew it Lastly if he will be intreated let him tell the cause why his book being entituled A defence of the Churches Ministerie of England came not out Cum priuilegio Yea why it was printed beyond sea and not in England It is a shrewd token cōsidering the title that his Defence euen at home amōg his neighbours is accoūted very weak and simple For the name Brownists by which we are reproched in the forefrōt of his book note these things 1. That in like manner long since by the Priests and Pharisees were the Apostles and Primitiue Churches termed * Act. 24.5 a sect of Nazarites and at this day by the Papists are the Professors of the Gospel called Calvinists Zuinglians Huguenotes and the like 2. M. Browne from whose name this byword was first taken vp is a member and Minister of M. Iacobs Church not of ours yet holding as we heare in his iudgment the truth we professe but for his practise stāding in the apostasy and false worship wherein they are So then not we but M. Iacob and such like may fitly be called Brownists inasmuch as in their iudgment they hold the things we stand for to be good yet in their practise like Browne are other men walking with the Church of England in her euill way 3. For our selues we acknowledg with the disciples in the Primitiue Churches and the faithful in al ages since that we are ‡ Act. 11.26 Christians striuing now for our time and estate against the remainder of the abominations of Antichrist to keep the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus Therefore doth it not trouble vs that by M. Iacob or any other we are thus reuiled for the name of Christ It is inough for vs that the †1 Pet. 4.14 spirit and truth of God which on their part is euil spoken of is on our part glorified But yet let him and all such take heed vnto it in time Now I proceed to his maine and maimed Argument Which is as followeth Chap. 2. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it is novv propounded and printed by vvhich
he vvould proue the Churches of England to be the true Churches of God VVhatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian in state of saluation That is sufficienâ— to make a companie so gathered together to be a true Church But the whole doctrine as it is publikly ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. professed and practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation ††See for the addition of these vvords in Pag. 6. and our publique Assemblies are therein gathered together Therefore it is sufficieÌ„t to make the publique Assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson THe aunswer of this ArgumeÌ„t followeth But first I wil proposid another prouing by better reason that the Church-assemblies of England are in their constitution so far from being true Churches of God as they stand in AntichristiaÌ„ estate and are therfore subiect to wrath The ARGVMENT is this Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered togeather likewise to stand though they professe withall in their constitution many doctrines of truth otherwise profitable to saluation But the Hierarchie Leiturgie and confusion ecclesiasticall as they are publikly ‡ Their Ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ Courts Iniunctions practise canon Lavve Books of articles of coÌ„mon prayer of ordering Priestes and consecrating Archbishops c. professed practised by law in England are sufficient to make a †As for exaÌ„ple the Prelates the Priessts c. particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath And the Church-assemblies in England are in ‡ their estate companies so gathered together Therefore are these also sufficient to make the Church-assemblies of England likewise to stand though they professe vvithall in their constitution many doctrines of truth othervvise profitable to saluation This Argument I propound as being more sound then M. Iacobs both for matter and maner Let others iudge Now I come to examine his Where first it is needfull so to set it downe as it was heretofore propounded by himself And that was thus as followeth Chap. 3. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it vvas first propounded and aunswered VVHatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true ChristiaÌ„ in state of saluatioÌ„ That is sufficient to make a company so gathered togeather to be a true Church But the whole doctrine ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Therefore it is sufficient to make the publique assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer TO omit the Proposition vntill it better appeare by the defence of the Assumption how to take and vnderstand it we wil for the present only shew the weakenes of the AssumptioÌ„ And this also the rather because they seeme wholy to depend vpon it H. Iacob his Reply THe AuÌ„svverer omitteth the PropositioÌ„ for in deed it is most certain But he denieth the Assumption vvhich yet is as certaine also That the doctrine in our booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian Fr. Iohnson his 2. Aunsvver IN the former aunswer I omitted the PropositioÌ„ not because of the certeinty of it as the Replier dreameth but till we might see by his defence of the Assumption how to take it as then I noted Now therefore hauing seen in his reply the * This I vvrot vvhen I had seen Mr. Iacobs first Repâ—e herafter follovving vvhich novv he hath secoÌ„ded vvith another of like sort VVhether it be not so as here I say let the indifferent Reader vpon tryall iudge vnlearned and vnconscionable pretences by which he would seem to defend the Assumption wheÌ„ in deed he doth nothing else but cast a mist before the eyes of the simple I giue him to vnderstand that the whole Argument is lame and faulty in euery part The Proposition is not absolutely true as now by his defence of the Assumption it appeareth he vnderstandeth it The Assumption is not only false as was proued in the * My first auÌ„svver vvas the 3. ExceptioÌ„s and 9. Reasons vvhich here do follovv former auÌ„swer but also lacketh a foot whereon it should goe if it were perfect and entire For whereas in the Proposition mention is made not only of the making of a true Christian but also of a companie so gathered togeather he should in the AssumptioÌ„ if he would haue had it sound and perfect not only haue assumed that the doctrine c. is sufficient to make a true Christian but haue added also that their assemblies be companies so gathered together Which being not done both the Assumption waÌ„teth one of the feet and the Conclusion inferreth more then was in the premisses and so the whole Syllogisme is faultie and disfigured Thus might we without any further aunswer returne this ArgumeÌ„t to the first framers of it to be better fashioned Yet in hope to doe them good by the blessing of God we will more particularly lay open the weakenes of this Replie And first where he saith the Proposition is most certain and yet in his defence of the Assumption declareth that he so taketh it as whatsoeuer amongst them be ioyntly togeather held and ioyned with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures we aunswer that in this sence the Proposition neither is nor can be absolutly true For who knoweth not that ‡ Gal. 5.2.4 such things may be ioined with Christ as do abolish from him And again †2 cor 6.14.15.16.17 that Christ Antichrist cannot accord together Either therefore the Proposition is not general but admitteth limitatioÌ„ and theÌ„ is not the ArgumeÌ„t good Or if it be generall without any limitation so as whatsoeuer be added to or commingled with that which otherwise might make a true ChristiaÌ„ or Church yet it hindereth nothing at all then is it not alway true as may appeare by the former exceptions and many mo that might be alledged Next touching the Assumption besides that it is same it is also vntrue as hath ben proued Some balme in deed this man bringeth to cure it but it hath no other effect saue only to manifest so much the more that the soare of their Assemblies cannot be healed In our former aunswer we first tooke 3. Exceptions against theÌ„ comparing together their profession and practise then we alleadged 9. ReasoÌ„s directly concluding the falshood of the Assumption H. Iacob his 2. Reply Before I examine this your aunswer I will desire you and all others to note that all your Ecceptions and Reasons with your defence of them hereafter following doe consist of these
in him some goodnes towards the Lord God of Israell he may be counted a true Israelite finding mercy at the Lords hands 1 King 14.1.5.13 By this you may see what my mind in this first point is and alway hath ben And if you doe marke wheresoeuer I speak of the members of your Church to be vnder wrath in Antichristian estate no true Christians or iointly together no true Churches or the like I speake it still with this caution in respect of such estate or constitution as they stand in vnder Antichrist To which end you may euerie where in my aunswers minde these and the like clauses In that estate In that constitution In respect of the Ministerie and constitution of the Church Being subiect to Antichrist Being so considered Being Antichristian and other of like sorte For the second your words are That all the Christians and Churches in King Edvvards tyme and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. vvere all lims of Antichrist and no true Christians Now as touching this matter although you may easily see what my minde is by that I haue said concerning the other going before yet for this in particular know also that I am thus minded viz. That al the christians and churches in King Edwards time and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. stood as touching the outward constitution of that church in Antichristian estate Yet considering the mercie of God vnto thē and their faithfulnes in those things which in that time of ignorance were reuealed inasmuch as afterward they loued not their liues vnto death but in many waightie pointes resisted vnto blood striuing against Antichrist I hold them in this respect true Christians and now to be at rest with the Lord. And tell me your self M. Iacob whether you iudge not thus of Arnoldus de villa noua Iohannes de rupe scissa Iohn Wicleff Iohn Hus Ierome of Prage Sauanarola Dominicus Siluester Thorpe Swinderby Bilney c. the faithfull witnesses of Christ in their seuerall ages and therefore in this respect true Christians whereas yet notwithstanding as touching their ministerie and Church-constitution wherein they were they stood in Antichristian estate some of them being Friers some popish Priests some saying Masse some communicating in it c. vntill the day they were martyred and put to death For the third your wordes are That euerie soule in England is conuicted in consciēce that the Prelacie is vnlawfull vntolerable Touching this likewise I neuer did nor can affirme as you haue set downe Only this I know and affirme for the generall state of the Land that a greater light is risen vnto them in these daies but they loue darknes more then light Also that many times and sundry waies hath ben shewed and convinced vnto them that the Prelacie Priesthood Leiturgy c. are Antichristian and therefore vnlawful and vntolerable Finally that the * VVitnesse their Acts in Parlament against vs. Their presēt estate practise c. vniuersal face of the Realme hath refused the truth by vs professed and retaineth still the Antichristian abhominations aforesaid For which I feare their iudgment will be the heauier Ioh. 3.19 and 15.22 Act. 13.45.46 This is that which I haue bin and am perswaded touching these particulars The latter branch of the first of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which I haue proued by many arguments both from the word of God and your owne mens writings Vnto which M. Iacob you haue not giuen one word of sound aunswer in all your booke but continually fly from the point in question as knowing I feare in your self that there can be no iust defence of your Churches estate in this behalf And touching all three your self could not but know that my iudgment therein was as I haue declared you and I haue so oftē had speach together thereabout Yet behold to make the truth of God and my defence thereof more odious to the world and so to preiudice your Readers iudgment you haue here at first vniustly and falsly fathered vpon me these three assertions being not able to shew them in my words or writings any where Remember you not how the enemies of Gods grace delt of old with the Apostles Rom. 3.8 blaming them vniustly as if they had taught vve should doe euil that good might come thereof Or mind you how the Papists Anabaptists and the like doe at this day charge vs though falsly that vve make God the author of sin whiles we maintaine against them the truth touching Predestination Freewill c. In like manner deale you with me See Mat. 26 60.61 vvith Ioh. 2 19.21 Act. 6.13.14 And thus at first you become a false witnes both in peruerting the sence of my words and in altering diminishing and adding vnto them Euerie of which you know is to beare false testimony not only against me but in this case euen against the truth it self That all men take notice both of these positions and of our dealing therein I also am content and desirous My aunswers I confesse are somewhat long partly because I would make the truth manifest euen to the most simple partly for that I would more fully discouer your manifold shifts and leaue you no statting hole any where In your replies which may well be pinned vp in a narrow roome seeing they haue nothing of waight in them I desire more sound and vpright dealing together with demonstration of your cause from the Scripture That I haue cause thus to desire these three points following which I wish the Reader to obserue in your Replies will testifie First that you being to proue your cause and Argument Three things to be noted by the Reader in Mr Iacobs Replyes neuer proceed though you be still called vpon to make due proof thereof but put ouer all proof vnto me and busie your selfe in aunswering after your fashion the Exceptions and Reasons I brought against your Argument Secondly that in aunswering my Reasons and Exceptions finding them all to heauy you neuer directly refute them as they were propoūded but some times leaue most waightie points in them wholy vnaunswered somtimes labour to wash your hāds of the matter and to turne ouer the plea from your selfe that haue vndertakē it to the state of your Church on whom you leaue it somtimes transforme them into other shapes framed by your self and so aunswer not me but fight with your owne shadow and thus euerie foot yeeld the cause by necessary consequence Thirdly that in steed of Gods word which is very rare with you in all this dispute you presse vs with the authoritie of Man neuer going about to approue your Church-estate by the Scriptures which onely must end this controuersie but alway leading vs to the view and errors of the Martyrs For let it be minded whether euery of your Replies haue not this for their foundation
His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and
doctrine Now if you cannot prooue your Assemblies to be such you may see your own witnesses euen your owne doctrine and book giue verdict against you If you can prooue them to be such where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in this your owne description of a visible Church H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 1. Excep THis your first Exception is the 19. Article of this very book vvhich vvee alleadge vvherein a visible Church is described to be a Congregation where the pure word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all those things that of necessitie are requisite Novv this description you reiect not but our practise say you is contrary and therefore vve haue no true visible Churches nor Christians I ansvver vvherein is it contrarie in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite doth not all this Christian vvorld see and confesse that our publique practise is agreeable to our profession in that book Nay say you but proue you your assemblies to be such and if you can proue them where and what are your proofs if you doe not you are confuted A vvorthy confutation sure and very Clerklike As if my Tenaunt should denie me rent for my house and land yea and goe to Lavv vvith me for the fee simple vvhich he hath holden in ferme of me these 40. yeares and I haue hetherto quietly enioyed from my Auncestors time out of minde Novv he suing me at lavv for that vvhich I thus possesse saith proue your right to this land vvhich you haue if you can vvhat and vvhere be your proofes let me see them Or els I your Tenaunt vvill haue it This vvere goodly dealing vvere it not and very lavvfull EueÌ„ so doe you asking proofes of vs for that vvhich vve possesse haue possessed before you made any question about it nay you your selues held part of this possession of vs and vvith vs till yesterday vvhen you began first to lay claime in this sorte to the vvhole Novv your reason is let vs prooue it to be ours where be our proofs Or els you will not accknowledg vs any longer see I pray you your owne equity If this suffice not to make you desist I leaue it to the Iudges to giue sentence Secondly note further Our Article saith A Church is where the word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all things that of necessitie are requisite Where vveâ— plainly insinuate that many errours may be added and truthes wanting in a visible Church but nothing which is absolutely necessarie Now what doth our practize in Preaching or Sacraments want that is absolutely necessarie without which there cannot be any true preaching or Sacraments at all shevv it vs because vve see it not our selues I assure you vntil then your first reason hath no reason in it Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply vpon the 1. Excep HOw fit or vnfit the description is I neither did nor doe examine Onely because it is your owne profession and your practise is coÌ„trary vnto it I did from hence take the first Exception requiring of you to proue your Assemblies to be such or els to know that your owne doctrine is a witnes against your selues Now in your Reply haue you according to the particulers of that description iustified your Church assemblies Nothing lesse Let this therefore be first obserued But what then haue you done First pretending as if you repeated our exception and your owne description you leaue out diuers particulers of speciall moment there expressed As first where the visible Church is described to be a congregation of faithfull men you leaue out these wordes of faithfull men belike knowing that your Congregations which are holds of all foule spirits and cages of euery vncleane and hatefull bird Reuel 18.2 cannot therefore iustly be accounted congregations of faithfull men Secondly where the description speaketh of the Sacraments to be duely ministred you leaue out this word duely because it crosseth your womens Baptisme priuate Communion receiuing of the most prophane and their seed among you c. Lastly where in the description it is required both for preaching the pure word and due administration of the Sacraments that they be don according to Christes ordinance you leaue out these words according to Christes ordinance belike because this clause quite overthroweth both your Antichristian Prelacy from whih al the inferior Ministers among you receiue power and authority to preach and minister the SacrameÌ„ts and your Preisthood and Deaconry wherein you all administer and your stinted imposed prayers exhortations crosses in the forehead questions to Infantes vse of the same wordes in English in ministring the Lords Supper which the Papists vsed and still vse in Latine not retaining the words of Christes institution and such like Thus hauing left out such particulers as were of speciall moment against you yet you demaund vvherein your paactize is contrary to your profession and description of a visible Church in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite We aunswer in all the particulers of that description aforesayd For first your Church-assemblies are not congregations of faithfull men but a confusion of all manner of people though neuer so wicked and prophane The ‡ D. VVâ—iâ—g booke pag 176. and 178 Prelates and Formalists affirm that your Church is full of Atheistes Papistes Idolaters Drunkards Whoremongers and such like The * Sermon on Rom. 12 pag. 65. and 66. Demonstration in the preface forward Preachers likewise that in your Church are svvarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erronious and heretical Sectaries Witches Charmers Sorcerers Murtherers Theeues Adulterers Lyars c. Finally that a man may be any thing among you sauing a sound Christian These things being so as both your estate and writings beare witnes iudge your selues whether your Assemblies can be accounted Congregations of faithfull men or no which is the first point of the description aforesaid Secondly in the same description is required That the pure vvord of God be preached according to Christes ordinance But with you are allowed besides the word of God the Apocrypha books and in steed of preching the word the reading of Homilies as may appeare in that ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1502. book of Articles alledged by your self Yet who knoweth not that in those bookes are diuers vntruths errors contradictions blasphemies and such like So farre are they from being the pure word of God or agreeing therewith Moreouer when and where the word is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ And the Ministers that preach it do in your constitution alway stand subiect to be silenced suspended excommunicated and degraded by the Prelates and Ordinaries to whom when you are made Priests you promise and when you enter vpon a benefice you sweare Canonicall obedience Neither are you suffered any further to preach the word and truth of God then agreeth
in the book of Artic. yet then our profession practise differ not as you charg our Churches But these pointes are not the pure word of God Neither doth the Article meane that in a visible Church euery iot and title both of our profession and practise must needs be out of the pure word They knew that euery visible Church might and did erre in somewhat Onely it meaneth that a visible Church might not erre in any poinct that of necessity is requisite as their words expresse It resteth then that you shew that the pure word is not preached in our assemblies by law sufficiently to salvation which yet you do not nor can doe Therefore you say nothing For I for my part knovv wel that our Churches faile from the pure word in sundry lesser points which though they be errors yet are they not Fundamentall neither doe they in their owne nature abolish from Christ Thirdly the Article hath according to Christes ordinance But you say that we preach in strange and false functions such as are not Christes ordinances This is false too Our ordinary Preachers are true Pastours as touching the substance of Pastorall calling as I haue often aunswered you albeit they haue a wrong ordination from the Prelacie See my defence of this poinct as also of that concerning the confusion of our people in my other vvriting long since deliuered to you touching the * In my avnsvver to the 1. reason of that treatise follovving in the eâ—de of this book comparing of the condition of a Ministerie vvith Mariadge Novv this ordinance of Christ to haue a true Pastor to a faithfull people is sufficient for the being of a true Church though not for the perfection of it Contrary to the vvhich you haue nothing but vvords Lastly the Article requireth due administration of Sacraments But our practize say you herein is not due or inâ—ier because there concurre diuers corruptions withall as â—â—inted prayers exhortations Epistles Gospels crossing in Baptisme c. I aunsvver all these simply of them selues do not abolish our Sacraments If you think they do say so and you shall be refuted If nay then this verie Article signifieth so much That corruptions and faults might be in the Sacraments but nothing amisse that of necessitie is requisite Novv all these 4. poinctes I haue omitted say you True in vvords I haue but in sence I expresse them all and euerie one vvhen for breuities sake I comprehended all in this generall clause of this Article according to all that is of necessitie requisite Hovv say you haue I not herein contained and signified all these your exceptions and that according to the meaning of the Article If I haue as it is most true then doe you vnconscionably abuse me in saying I pretended to repeate our description in the Article and yet leaue out diuers particulars of speciall moment And let this therefore be first obserued I haue omitted nothing materiall in that Article Yea let this be here noted that in all this you haue most fondly abused yout penne and tounge Yet vyill you still demaund how our practise agreeth with our profession in that 19. Article Still I annsvver you vvith that similitude of a foolish and importunate Tenaunt against his Landlord If I haue held possession and my auncestors before me time out of minde indeed rhe King laying claime to it he may call for my euidence because ‡ Time prescribeth not against the Prince nullum tempus occurrit Regi But against my fellovv subiects possession inheritance so long vvithout interruption is of it self euidence in lavv good inough except the plaintif can bring better to the coÌ„trary Therefore it vvere absurd and sencelesse before any Iudge in England for a Tenaunt to put such a Landlord to shevv his euidence in such a case Euen so as absurd it is for you seeing at first you vvere of vs and novv are gone out from vs to put vs to proue our selues to be such as heretofore you neuer doubted of If now you doubt and contradict it shew you your reason as better euidence or els all men wil condempne your folly VVhere you put me to proue all our offices of the Hyerarchie their ceremonies c. What needeth it I neuer tooke it vpon me Except you doe shew that these corruptions all or any of them absolutely in their owne nature do abolish vs al cleane from Christ make vs vnpossible to be saued which vntill you doe still I say I see not any peece of reason in all your words And Lastly where you say it is an impudent vntruth that I say we see not that anything necessarie is wanting in our Church And to this end you quote to conuince me The Admonition T. C. his Replies Demonstration Declaration and the Defence of Discipline c. This is indeed too bold an vntruth a wilfull peruerting of all your allegations None of all these do gtaunt any thing to be wanting with vs that is necessarie to the being of a Church simply nor to the being of a true Ministery or Sacraments But onely to their vvell and conuenient being Hovv honest then are you to falsifie your ovvne vvitnesses so openly Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply vpon the 1. Excep I Haue often heard such things M. Iacob Yet they are but words of wynd And now belike you tell vs here aforehand what we are to look for in this and the rest of your Replies following even much adoe to no purpose First where your Article describeth a visible Church to be a CoÌ„gregation of faithfull men you say yours are so I did and do denie it Now therefore must you proue it who made the first Argument and still continew to reply If you know not this you know little or nothing either of the rules or of the vse of sound reasoning Let any that haue knowledg judge Secondly whereas you would I should proue the contrary although in putting this over to me you manifest your owne ignorance and weaknes yet know that both “ Mr. Barrovves Refutation of M. Giffâ—rd The Discouery The Conferences published c. others of vs and †In the aunsvvers to M. A. H. to M. T. C. to M. VV. Smith and to your self my self haue done it sundrie times and taken away the obiections drawen from the corruptions in the Ievvish or any other Churches Vnto which who is there of you that ever gave vs sound aunswer Thirdly I take the whole Land to witnes against you that it is most false which here you are not ashamed with such boldnes to affirme viz. that your Church-assemblies are Congregations of faithfull men But by this may all men see you make no conscience what you affirme or denie so you may seeme to say somewhat Fourthly your owne men of all sorts confesse it to be as I have said and shewed in my former aunswer Vnto which I might adde an hundred mo
testimonies of theirs if the case were not as cleare as the Sunne at noone day But you say I depraue their meanings vtterly Why so I pray you Because they say not that all your Assemblies are such nor your vvhole Assemblies though they graunt very many such to be among you that is manie of your Church to be Atheists Papists Drunkards Whoremongers Thieves Murtherers Witches c. Alas M. Iacob it pittieth me to see your extreame follie and evill conscience Your follie that see not how both they and you giue the cause in this graunt and therby also testifie that I do not at all deprave their meanings Is it possible that your Church-assemblies should be full of such knowen vngodly persons and yet be Congregations of faithful men It never entred into my thought much lesse did I ever say it that your whole Assemblies are such I know and willingly accknowledg many of your Church not to be so for which I praise God Alwaies I except your publike worship and Idolatrie wherein all even the best among you are inwrapped This I said that your Assemblies are not congregations of faithful men but a confusion of all manner of people though never so vvicked And this you see do your owne men testifie Adde herevnto that both they and your self graunt your Assemblies herein ought to be reformed If they be already Congregations of faithfull men what reformation would you haue in this behalf But if their estate herein be such as they ought to be reformed why are you so shamles and foolish thus to speake as you do in all this matter Besides your folly you bewray an evill conscience in asmuch as you denie that thing the light whereof doth so shine in your conscience as even whiles you would shift it of you are constrained to acknowledg it whether you will or not Where you speak of your owne men that they deny not your Assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be seperated from it is to no purpose at all saue against your selfe For first though they speak it not in these very syllables yet the thing it self necessarily followeth vpon their words It is without question that the heathen Poets did themselues worship Idols yet notwithstanding sometimes they so spake in their writings as Paull doth * Act. 17.28.29 from thence conclude that not Idols but the true God onely is to be worshipped Had it now ben of waight for any of them to have alleadged against the Apostle that theit Poets did not deny Idols to be worshipped Yet you think it sufficient to withstand the truth with any such pretence Let this once spoken serve for aunswer to all your reproches wherewith you burden me many times for the collections which I deduce necessarily from your owne and other mens writings Secondly you are to know that it is not materiall against me whatsoever your men doe graunt or denie But against you it is who abide in the same Ministerie and of the same Church with them For that which you speak of the Church of the Iewes both auncient and in the time of Christ referring vs to another place hereafter in this book for proof of your comparison look you there also for aunswer therevnto And hitherto of the first point of your Article and profession differing from your practise and constitution For the second if you professe to preach the pure vvord of God as this Article requireth and yet againe both in profession and practise as here you acknowledg preach the impure and lying writings of Men such as be the Apocrypha books and your Homilies what is or can be more contrarie If your Article meane othervvise as you pretend it is full of deceit Neither shall any ever know what your profession is if your Articles doe thus crosse one another and your practise also agree with the worst But to cleare this point I aunswer furthermore 1. that it is a point of necessitie requisite that Gods vvord onely be taught For which see these Scriptures Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 Psal 119.113 Prov. 30.5.6 Esa 8.20 and 59.21 Ier. 23 16.28 Ioh. 5.39 Col. 3.16 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 and 2 Tim. 3.16.17 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19 Thus by your owne exposition of this Article the Assumption of your maine Argument falleth and your Churches remaine in false constitution which is the question betweene vs. See the third Exception follovving In the aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply 2. The Apocrypha books maintained in the Church which you say is both your profession and practise overthroweth the truth of Christian religion and bringeth in Iudaisme Popery Atheisme and what not 3. Even in the Church of Rome where these books also are received yet withal the pure word is so preached among them by Law as no doubt to some is sufficient co salvation For proof whereof see the Rhemes Testament in their note vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Yet this hindreth not but that their Church maintaineth false doctrine as in that place also may be seen and standeth in false constitution Neither therefore can this help you It resteth then that you show the pure worde only to be preached among you by Lavv and that also according to Christes ordinance which yet you doe not neither can doe And therefore it is your self that say nothing but that you both professe practise errors Now it is well the truth so shineth in your heart as you confesse your Churches faile from the pure vvord in sundry lesser points Yet I pray you reckon vp these points in particular that by the worde of God it may be seen whether they be lesser or greater then you would beare vs in hand Then tell vs in whose power it is in your Church to redresse them Also why they are not redressed seeing you know them and haue ‡ Rev. 2.16.17 3.3 Mat. 18.15.16.17.20 1 Cor. 5.4.5 Lev. 4.13 2 Cor. 10.4.5.6 rules given by Christ for such cases if your Churches be his Lastly why you for your part abide in knowen errors and keepe not the truth and commaundements of Christ As touching that you say though they be errors yet they are not fundamentall neither doe in their owne nature abolish from Christ the fit place of handling this point followeth in the second Exception and seventh Reason to which places I referre it Yet in the meane time because here we are treating of the Apocrypha books tell me whether in retaining them you retaine not such errors as your self account fundamentall c. For example the book of Tobit teacheth that †Tob. 12.12.15 Angels doe present and bring to memory our prayers before the Lord. Now this honour you know is peculiar to Christ who “ 1 Tim. 2.5 onely is the Mediator of Intercession That Apocrypha doctrine therefore is blasphemous and an error in your sence as I take it fundamentall Adde herevnto that * 2 Mach. 12.43.44.45 offring vp of a sinne offring to God for
Iewes * Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13 Amos. 4.4.5 Esa 1.12.13 polluted the table of the Lord and made their oblations to be in vaine yea if the abuses in Corinth about the Sacrament made that ‡ 1 Cor. 11.20 it was not the eating of the Lords supper what then shal be thought of the heynous abominations of Antichrist retained among you in the Sacraments Your distinction of simply abolishing is but leaven of your owne borrowed from your Prelates and by them from the Papists We plainely affirme that your abuses and corruptions are such as the Sacraments among you are not duely administred according to Christs ordinance and that it cannot be showed by the word of God that they seale vp Gods covenant of grace to your Church and the members thereof in that estate Now see that according to your promise you refute this And prove that notwithstanding all your corruptions mentioned yet Christ acknowledgeth your Sacramēts for his also that the good things and ordinances of Christ wanting among you are not of necessitie requisite In the meane time know that none can partake in the administration of your Sacraments but they must needs withall partake in your sinnes before rehearsed Which the Lord hath most straitly forbidden Rev. 18.4 and 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Psal 119.21 Mal. 1.7.8.13.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Amos. 4.4.5 and 5.5 Ephes 5.11 The particulars of your Article you say you omitted for breuities sake Let others beleev you that will for mine owne part I neither do nor can beleev it You have here taken paines to write an whole book and in it a multitude of words to no purpose Is it likely then that for brevity sake you would omit the most speciall points of the Article which may be written in a line or two at the most Nay M. Iacob these clauses of faithfull men duely according to Christs ordinance are so ful and pregnant against you as you thouht it no wisdome to mention them at all but rather in silence to bury them vnder some generall terme or as your self speak to comprehend them in a generall clause This in deed was the best way to darken the truth and help your self if any way you could But any that mind your manner of dealing may easily see that if these clauses had made but a tenth part so much for you as they are fully against you then you would have ben so far from omitting thē as we should have had them noted downe in greater letters then the rest For your Article it self if the meaning of it were to comprehend those points in your generall clause why then did it so particularly mention them besides Were the framers of your Article so ignorant or carelesse think you as in a brief descriptiō of such a waighty matter they would commit so many vaine and needles tantologies Nay rather they judged all these particulars absolutely needfull specially that Christs ordinance be had and observed and that also in all things of necessitie requisite How say you is not this the meaning of the Article How fondly then and how vnconscionably have you abused not onely your pen and tounge but even your Church and book of Articles whereon you seeme for to rely How just cause also have I then still to demaund where and what your proofes be touching the particulars of your owne description of a visible Church Your parable of a Landlord and a Tenaunt besides that it is popish and against your selues as hath ben shewed it is also false You have not had possession time out of minde as you pretend It is but yesterday since this your Samaritane and misceline religion began viz since King Henry the eight Now also Christ the King and Lord of his Church doth by his servants lay claime to his owne right and disclaimeth your false worship and Ministerie So your owne saying is against your self Nullum tempus occurrit Regi No time doth preiudice the King If you plead your right by any more auncient date as from Christ and his Apostles the evidence may soone be shewed from their writings If you doe it not all men of wisdome will not onely condemne your folly who take vpon you the defence of so bad a cause but will also perceive the impietie of your Churches estate for which no warrant can be shewed frō Apostolik writ For our going out from among you when before we had held part of possession with you I brought warrant from the worde of God which you touch not at all That it lieth vpon you yea and that your self have taken it vpon you to approve your Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion of people c. appeareth not onely by the title of your book which is called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England but by reason also that you began the first Argument and continew to replie Wherevpon you are bound to proue what is denied or in this case put vnto you to be proved We then in aunswer to your Argument noting the falshood of your Hierarchy worship c. it is your part now to approve them by the word of God or to convince that they abolish not your constitution from being Christs If you cannot doe this confesse it and give glory to God That your case is thus hath ben often shewed by vs both in other writings and in these aunswers to your self And of this point there will be occasion afterward to speak againe Touching the impudent vntruth wherewith you were charged first you sayd your selves see not wherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary I alledged your owne men as witnesses to convince you therein The Admonition T. C. his replies the Demonstration c. Now you aunswer that none of all these do graunt any thing to be wanting vvith you that is necessary to the being of a Church simply nor to the being of a true Ministery or Sacraments but onely to their vvell and convenient being By which bold assertion of yours you both prove and persist in the impudent vntruth laid to your charge For hearken now and you shall heare themselves testifie thus much The first Admonition in the Preface sayeth thus In a fevv vvordes to speake vvhat vve meane Either must vve have a right Ministery of God Admonitiō to the Parliam first and second and a right government of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp both vvhich vve lack or els there can be no right Religion nor yet for contempt thereof can Gods plagues be from vs any vvhile differred And againe in the treatise it self are these words We in England are not yet come to the outvvard face of a Church agreable to Gods vvord Or as it is written in the margent of divers of those books we are scarce come to the outvvard face of a Church c. Take which of these you please the best is bad ynough Touching the Ministerie in particular the same book and men say thus We have an
Antichristian Hierarchy and a popish ordering of Ministers strange from the vvord of God and the vse of all vvel reformed Churches in the vvorld And further Although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth comprised in the booke of God Then touching the Sacraments thus they write The Sacraments are vvickedly mangled and prophaned Also In the primitive Churches they administred the Sacrament simply as they received it from the Lord vve sinfully mixed vvith mans inventions and devises Yea they charge the Prelates that they doe superstitiously and vvickedly institute a nevv Sacrament vvhich is proper to Christ onely marking the child in the forehead vvith a Crosse in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ And of your book of coÌ„mon prayer according to which your Sacraments and other divine service is administred thus also they write we must needes say that this book is an vnperfit book culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse book full of all abominations To conclude withall thus they testifie concerning these things controverted betweene them and the Prelates Neyther is the controversy betvvixt them and vs as they vvould beare the vvorld in hand for a cap a tippet or a surplus but for greater matters concerning a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church according to the vvord Which things once established the other melt away of theÌ„selues Being once established say they Therefore yet they did not account they had them And whereof speak they All may see of a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church Now speak your self Mr. Iacob Do not these men testifie to your face that you have avouched a bold and impudent vntruth wilfully striving against the cleare light Yet I have cited but a few and those onely out of the Admonitions to the Parliament Out of which and the rest of their writings I might alledge a thousand mo to convince you herein But that would be too tedious And these I doubt not will cleare the point and suffice any that are indifferent and godly minded For your self I say no more but wish you had not verified the Orators saying He that once passeth the bounds of modestie becomes impudent out of measure Hitherto of the first Exception Chap. 5. The second Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforesayd Fran. Iohnson SEcondly tell vs whether you hold and professe Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other And if you do then shew vs how your practise agreeth with this profession H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 2. Excep TO this second Exception That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King I aunswere The Booke of Articles our Ministers now and Congregations generally do hold and professe the same our practise being answerable likewise therevnto euen as before time Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and such like with their Congregations did then viz. That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King and to be obeyed in his owne ordinances onely in no other This I say we generally professe and practise Hovvbeit this note vvith all vve hold Christs ordinance to be of tvvo sorts writteÌ„ or vnwritteÌ„ the first necessary the secoÌ„d arbitrary The first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the invvard opinion only such as these The doctrine of God his Nature his Persons his Properties of the Messias Christ Iesus of Iustification of Sanctification of the ResurrectioÌ„ c. Wherein standeth the †1 Cor. 3.12.13 foundation of saving faith All these must be in the vvritten vvord or els to be none of Christes The second touching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truely called and counted Christes ovvne also although particularly deuised and appointed by the Church vvhom Christ hath authorised therevnto euen as it shall be thought most fit and profitable for the preseÌ„t times places and persons such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies to be because they be not simply of the foundation neither written nor certen nor perpetuall but at the arbitrarie appointment of the Church and Magistrate and yet to be Christes ovvne neuerthelesse vvho hath left this libertie for the Church to vse Thus vve hold and thus vve practise and vve are persvvaded no Scripture to be against all this but rather for it I speak novv concerning our Ministers and Congregations generally that is our publique Church state If you say but there are divers amongst vs that thinke othervvise I aunsvver But this is the generall estate both of our Ministers and Churches hovvsoever one or tvvo amongst huÌ„dreths or thousands may thinke othervvise shevv the contrary if you can And our Churches they certenly must be deemed after their generall estate and constitution not as one or tvvo men thinke If you say this generall opinion and practise is an error Therfore they obey not Christs ordinances in truth herein though they thinke they do I aunsvver let it be so it is novv “ An error though not fundamentall the error of their iudgment as it vvas in Maister Cranmer Ridley c. Not pregnaunt rebellion and disobedience to Christ not a convicted or seared conscience so that their other “ 1 Cor. 3 1â—.15 truthes of the foundation are not frustrat nor Christ made to none effect in them And this is all our question whether they remaine Christians still for all these faultes yea or no. F. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Excep IN this Exception we demaunded first if you held Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other then how your practise agreeth with this profession One would have thought it had ben needfull if you could to have cleared this poinct by the Scriptures and from thence to have proved your Ministery worship Church gouernement c. which are called jn question to be no other then the Lord Iesus Christ that Prophet Priest and King of his Church hath in his Testament given and appointed therevnto But this you have not done And let the Reader note it But what then do you say First you tell vs That touching this poinct your profession and practise now is so as before time it vvas vvith M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer and their CoÌ„gregations But what of this Can the persons or age of these whom you name nay can any person or ages preiudice the truth Were not they subiect to error at all Or must their errors bind vs Did not Iohn Hus that champion of Christ and others also of the Martyrs in former times say and heare Masse even to their dying day See their historyes in the Acts and Monuments not seeing the abominations thereof And did not divers of them acknowledge some the Popes calling and Supremacy some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some
thousand such like which are all of them concerning the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church By your Diuinitie these and infinite such like are vnvvritten and vncerten but left onely to the pleasure of the Church and Magistrate Yea if it please you the Princes and ciuill Magistrates may them selues be the publique Ministers of the vvord Sacraments and Censures of the Church 2. Any that will may without a calling take vpon him to be a publque Officer in the Church 3. Women may baptise or administer the Lords supper 4. The Iewish Romish or Heathenish Priesthood may be retained 5. Auricular confessiō may be vsed 6. The Keyes of the kingdome of heauen may be appropriated to the Pope of Rome or the Prelate of Canterbury or any other whōsoever 7. The Prelates and their Officials excōmunications do bind in heaven 8. The Apocryphall books and Decretall epistles are Canonicall scriptures 9. The Popes Portuis and the English book of prayer taken out of it are the true and lawfull worship of God 10. The Prelates and Priestes are the true and lawfull Ministers of God 11. Orders Penaunce Extreame vnction Matrimony c. are the Sacramentes of the Church 12. Surplus Cope Cap Tippet Rotchet c. are ornaments of the Ministery Finally all ragges and trumperies of the Romish religion are good and lawfull if it please the Church and Magistrate For why They concerne the outward gouernement orders and ceremonies of the Church And touching them you say Christ hath left no ordinances written certen not perpetuall but left them at the arbitrary appointment of the Church and Magistrate Is not this strange Diuinity Yet you stay not here neither but as men that have bent their tongues like bowes for lyes you feare not to adde further that when the Church and Magistrate appointeth any ordinances whether these or any other touching the outward gouernement and ceremonies of the Church we are to account them Christes owne who hath left this liberty to the Church for to vse O shameles mouth O vnchristian hart Can any Papist or Atheist say more Or can any desire a more euident proof then this that you and your Assemblies thus holding professing and practising as here your self affirme cannot in this estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians and Churches Sixtly you do yet further seek shifts and would colour the matter by pretending That the things which concerne outward gouernement and ceremonies are not of the foundation simply But this will help you no more then the other For first we aske are they of the foundation at all though not simply If they be then seing they are not written nor certen nor perpetuall as here by you is affirmed it will follow that neither the whole foundation is written certen or perpetuall neither the Apostles were faithfull and skilfull maister builders in the laying thereof If they be not then why is this word simply added as if you granted they were of the foundation though not simply Secondly we aske whether the outward gouernement and ceremonies ordained by Christ for his Church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation asmuch as the outward gouernemēt and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the Law Or if they be whether they are not as faithfully set downe by Christ as the other were by Moses and as carefully to be observed by vs as the other were by the Iewes or rather more inasmuch as * Heb. 3.2.3 Christ the Sonne is worthy of more glory and honour then Moses the seruant Thirdly we aske what fundamentall poinctes Moses and Aaron with the rest of the Iewes ioyning with them held that ‡ Num. 16. chap. Corach Dathan Abiram and their cōpanions held not differing frō them and erring onely touching the Priesthood and Ministery which concerned the outvvard orders and gouernemēt of the Church Was therefore Corah Dathan Abiram and their companie in that estate the true Israell of God Or were not the other truthes they held by this meanes frustrate and of none effect vnto thē Nay were they not therefore vvholy to be separated from and left to the iudgment of God which overtook them and all that ioyned vnto them Yet was their error onely in matters of order and outvvard gouernement of the Church This may serve to convince your vntrue assertions in this place To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c is aunswered before For conclusion I adde concerning this poinct That all such assemblies and people as hold professe and practise as doth the Church of England these abominations following can not by the word of God be esteemed in such estate truely to holde Christ their Prophet Priest King viz. 1. The confusion of all sortes of people though never so wicked and their seed in the body of the Church 2. The offices and callings of other Archb. and Lordb. then Iesus Christ also of Archdeacons Priestes halfe Priestes Parsons Vicars c. 3. The entrance into the Ministery by another way and other Lords then Iesus Christ 4. The executing of it vnder these strange Lords and leaving it at their pleasure 5. The preaching of the word administration of the Sacraments and governing of the Church by vertue of the offices and callings aforesayd and according to the Popish Canons and constitutions 6. The power of Excommunication in the Prelates alone and their Officialls 7. The confounding of Civill and Ecclesiasticall offices and authority in the Ministers of the Church 8. The forbidding of Mariage at certen seasons 9. The imposing and vsing of stinted deuised Leiturgies The English Portuis taken out of the Popes Latine one word for word saue that a few of the grosest things are left out yet keeping the same frame and order of Collects Psalmes Lessons Pater nosters Pistles Gospels Persicles Respondes c. 10. Appointing holy daies to all Sainctes and Angels to the Virgin Mary Iohn Baptist Mark Luke and twelue Apostles severally 11. togeather with Fastes on the Evens and on Ember dayes Fridayes Saturdayes and Lent 12. Prescribing the Ministers to pray over the dead over the Corne and Grasse at some season of the yeare and over Women at their Churching or purification 13. Enioyning them to marry with the King which they make a sacramentall signe 14. And to Baptise with the signe of the Crosse with Godfathers and Godmothers with questions demaunded of the infant that cannot speake nor vnderstand 15. Giving power to Womē to baptise 16. And ordaining that the other Sacrament of the Lords Supper be celebrated kneeling as when they received their maker and with change of the words of Christes institution taking in steed of them the wordes of the Popes Masse book translated into English c. Finally the vpholding of these and all such amongst them onely by carnall weapons of imprisonment death confiscation of goods bānishmen and such like The Assemblies and people I say which hold professe and practise as doeth this
is to seek new shifts and euasions Which yet are to no purpose at all except against your self and your Church For the first you say it is foule wrong to your Churches and to your words to say That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures If it be any wrong it is done by your self Are not these your owne words towching your Churches opinion in your ‡ Pag. 28. former Reply We hold Christs ordinance to be of two sorts written or vnwritten the first necessary the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is towching faith and the inward opinion onely c. the second towching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truly accounted Christs ovvne though particularly deuised by the Churche such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies because they be not simply of the foundation neyther vvritten nor certaine nor perpetuall c. How say you to these words All outvvard gouernement and ceremonies Are they not your owne And is it not your Churches opinion by your owne saying Have I then gathered or written otherwise then your self affirme your Church holdeth If I haue then lay your words and myne together and let them speak for both If not let the Reader iudge whether you haue not done me foule vvrong and if there be any to your CHVRâ—ch whether your self have not committed it Quitte your self of it as well as you can Besides you forget your self wondrously and speak things contradictory For now speaking of your Churches opinion and your owne words you say it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though externall yet are perpetuall things and necessary and vnchangeable by the Scriptures Yet before you told vs your Church holdeth all outvvard gouernement ceremonies orders to be vnvvritten vncertaine not perpetuall but arbitrary to be appointed and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate Eyther there fore to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. are not outward neyther concerning the governement ceremonies nor orders of the Church or els without question you ‡ Mendatem oportet esse memoâ—em forget your self straungely and speak daggers which runne into your owne bowels But to take that which now the euidence of the truth hath wrung froÌ„ you seing to preach to pray to administer Sacraments though externall yet are perpetuall necessary and vnchangeable by the Scriptures you must eyther from the Scriptures show that you haue these according to Christs ordinance or els yeeld that your practise is contrary to the professing of Christ for your Prophet Priest and King to be obeyed in his ovvne ordinance onely and no other And consequently that the AssuÌ„ption of your mayne Reason is false Which is to yeeld the cause And mynd withall that * Eph. 4.11 and 6.18 Rom. 12.7.8 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. c. 1 Tim. 3.15 5.17.8.6.13.14 Mat. 2â— 19.20 1 Pet. 5 1-4 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Christs ordinance is not onely for these things to be done but for the offices wherein and the manner whereby they are to be performed If you wil not beleev me nor the Scriptures alledged yet heare your owne men what they teach in this poynt Mr. Cartvvright saith “ T. C. first Rep. pag. 83 God hath not onely ordeyned that the vvord should be preached but hath ordeined also in vvhat order and by vvhom it should be preached And againe speaking of the Iewes Church he saith as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any strange doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true doctrine vnder the name of any other function then vvas instituted by God The Admonitions Counterpoyson Demonstration and many other your writings affirme the same both for preaching and Sacraments and other points of the outward order and governemeÌ„t of the Church And now I remember my self your self have confessed it ‡ Pag. 19 before in playne termes when you graunt it is Christs ordinance to have a true Pastor to a faithfull people and would have vs beleev that it is false to say you preach in straunge functions or have not the Sacraments duly ministred etc. I hope therefore in your next we shal have proof not that you have Preaching Prayer Sacraments which we know the Papists also and Anabaptists haue but that you have them in those offices and after that maner which Christ hath ordeined Now where you say your expresse vvords and Churches meaning is that Any reasonable kind of Church gouernement rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor vvritten in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be your onely and absolute King Prophet neuertheles For answer hereof besides that already brought I will say no more to this Popish assertion but onely inferre herevpon as followeth But the Church-governement rites and orders which Christ in his Ttestament hath ordeyned vnchangeably are a reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement rites and orders Therefore these so vnchangeably ordeined by Christ yet by your owne expresse words and your Churches meaning are arbitrary and chaÌ„geable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet forsooth Christ is still your onely and absolute King and Prophet neuertheles Let vs now see Mr. Iacob what aunswer you will make herevnto without sclandering cavilling and malitious depraving The second note in your explication is that you say you justifie not the aforesayd opinion of your State But how then do your book and the title of it agree Nay how do your selfe and that title agree when you wil not defend that which is the very point of the coÌ„trouersie between your Churches and vs Was there euer a more absurd defence heard of But now leaving your Church in the briers yet speak for your self How do you Mr. Iacob hold Christ your Prophet Priest and King when seeing your Church to erre in so many and so waightie pointes and that so as you can not iustifie yet you haue not all this time admonished them and by due order either brought them to repentance or left them as obstinate in sinne and wilfully disobeying the voice of Christ Where you say that thus to beleev and practise as your Church doth simply destroyeth no mans saluatioÌ„ in Christ you take that for graunted which you should proue Besides that the Papists Anabaptists and others may say as much for other outward things among them Yea no doubt but Ieroboam him self and his Priests and people said likewise that for IerusaleÌ„ to be the place and the sonnes of Aaron the Priestes and such like these were outward things and not to obserue them or to beleev otherwise then Iudah did concerning them simply destroied no mans saluation in Christ Was this therefore a sound defence of their apostasie Or might any vnder such pretence have continued and joined with them therein Of your second generall point and so of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I haue spoken
before But now because you bid me speak out what difference I put between your Churches and the Martyrs as also between you and my self holding these things of late with you hearken and I will tell you againe First for the Martyrs in former times mark these differences Differences betvveene the Martirs and Church of Engl. 1. Greater light of the truth is now come into the world then was in those daies but you loue darkenes rather then light For still you walk in darknes Ioh. 3.19 Ephes 5.11 2. They witnessed against the abominations of Antichrist then called in question to the losse of their libertie and lives Your Church doth not so against the remnants of Poperie now cōtroverted but do either openly defend them or fearefully submit vnto them 3. They consisted not of swarmes of Atheists adulterers drunkards and all sorts of people good and bad even knowen wicked ones mixed together in one body as your Church doth 4. Such of them as were Ministers were degraded from their Antichristian functions so are not yours 5. They died not members of Antichrists Church nor for any error they held but for the truth You stil remaine members of Antichistian Churches both withstanding the truth and maintaining errors 6. They were and died members of a true visible Church viz that persecuted Church in Queen Maries daies which was separated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary submission therevnto though in that time of ignorance they had their wants and errors You continew members of a false constituted Church vnseparated from the world yeelding subiection to Antichristian enormityes against the ordinances of Iesus Christ 7. They refused not the truth offred neyther resisted those that did iustly reprove theyr errors but your Church doth both as appeareth by your continuall practise and by the books and Acts of Parliament made openly and with authority against vs for witnessing the truth 8. Your Prelats Priests and people that is your Churches in your estate are no Martyrs but children of them which killed the Martyrs and do at this day fill vp the measure of your forefathers persecuting to death such as haue the testimony of Iesus This did not the Martyrs Are not you then the men that white the toombes of the Martyrs which were in former tymes and yet your selves imprison banish and kill the witnesses of Iesus that are among you at this day Take heed you hearden not your hearts but tremble at your fearefull estate and please not your selues in vnrighteousnes by the error of any neither blesse your selves still in iniquitie Hitherto of the difference between the Martyrs and your Churches Now for my self I confesse as I did * Pag. 8. before of the Martyrs that whiles I was Minister and member of your Church in that constitution I stood in Antichristian estate Yet doubt I not but euen then being of the elect of God I was partaker through faith of the mercy of God in Christ to saluation And this I hope is the case of divers among you But for my self I haue now the more assurance in that God hath both drawen me out of that Antichristian estate giuing me to see and to forsake it and hath planted me in his true Church and household giuing me to receiue his truth in much affliction with ioy of the holy Ghost 1 Thes 1.6 But as for you in your estate besides that yet you are not members of any true visible Church you do moreover abide in grosse confusion false Ministery Antichristian worship and other abominations by the word of God already discovered Now whiles you thus remaine you cannot in that estate approve your selves to have the promise of saluation whereof by the word of God you can be assured vntill you depart out †Rev. 18.4.5 Act. 2.40.47 Micah 2.10 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Ephe. 2.12.19 of that Babylō and save your selues from that froward generatiō being also by the Lord added to his true Church Which mercy I hope God daily doth and will vouchsafe many among you belonging to his election Thus you see how notwithstanding any thing we eyther do or can acknowledge touching the Martyrs or ourselves heretofore yet still we affirme and prove your estate to be Antichristiā So far are we frō graunting your Assumption as here you fancy with your self Your vaine questions Whether your whole assemblyes all and every of your assemblyes erre of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience whether we know the heart and conscience of men c. How fond and friuolous are they All of you erre by your owne graunt Whether any of you do it with a convicted conscience let God iudge who knoweth the heart Your self it seemeth deny not this to be the case of some among you Howsoever seeing you confesse that you erre why do you and the rest being so perswaded stil abide in error Is it because you †Ioh. 3.19 love darknes more then light Or because ‡ Act. 28.26 27. when you see yet you wink with your eyes least you should convert to the Lord and be healed If you would not leaue such as you imagine see it not how wil you ever know whether they that refuse do see it or not And why have you not al this time made it knowen to them and donne what lyeth in you to draw them from error Or having done it and finding them obstinate in evill yea persecuters of the truth revealed why have you not after the ‡ Act. 2.40.41 13.45.46.51 18.6 and 19.9 28.24 c. example of the Apostles separated from such and taught others to do the like Above all why plead you for their estate to be good warrantable in the way of salvation notwithstanding their errors and abominations Is not this to dawbe with vntempered morter Is it not to prophesie peace to the wicked and to promise them life to sow pillowes vnder their elbowes and to strengthen their hands in evill that they should not returne from their wicked way Ier. 23.16.17 Ezech. 13. Chap. Mal. 2.17 Where you say if we knew some convicted in conscience yet it serueth not our turne vnles all be so conuicted sure you mind not what you speak Did Christ ever give such a rule to his Church Or should there ever be Church separated from the world if this course were kept Besides what meane you by all being convicted Whether all in a house or all in a towne or all in a kingdome or all in the world Whether all of echser men and women of all ages yong and old of all estates hy and low rich and poore bond and free c. What also by being convicted Whether when sufficient is showed to convince men though they see it not or when they see it yet acknowledg it not or when they see and acknowledg it yet notwithstanding persist in their former estate or if vnto all these
* Act and Mon. edi◠5. p. 581. ◠He neither denied their popish transubstantion neither spake against the authority of the Church of Rome if it vvere vvell governed nor yet the 7. Sacraments and also sayd Masse himself and almost in all their popish opinions vvas a Papist vvith them Thus hath that book word for word What say you now vnto it What think you of these particulars and of that conclusion that not onely in these but almost in all their opinions He vvas a Papist vvith them Againe in the same book Hierom of Prage another Martyr speaking of Iohn Hus saith ‡ Ibid. pag. 584. b. he never maintained any doctrine against the Church of Rome but onely spake against their naughty life To which purpose may be minded also that the Hussites in Bohemia so called to this day for following Iohn Hus are for trausubstantiation and most of the popish errors and worship as grosse as the Papists themselves And to give an instance of our owne countreymen the same history speaking of Thomas Bilney who was burnt at Norwich hath thus * Ibid. pa. 921. b. As touching the Masse and Sacrament of the Altar as he never varyed frō himself so he never differed therein frō the most grossest Catholicks Mark these words he differed not therein from the most grossest How now will this and your speach agree who blush not to say that the book of Acts and Monuments affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Besides this bold vntruth of yours let the Reader mind how plainely you insinuate that if your Church had the Masse and the Popes supremacy so it were not in the largest and grossest sort you could defend their case aswell then as you do now by bearing the world in hand that these things might stand vvith Christ crucified c. Let the Reader mind and remember it I say no more It remaineth that now I cleare M. Hus and the rest of the Martyrs from your rash censure You judge if any of them held any errors that be fundamentall they are no holy Martyrs but abolished from Christ This I denie And you to proue it should from the Scriptures have showed first what it is to be fundamētall or of the foundation then that whosoever holdeth such error is abolished from Christ But you have done neither I know that here and everie where you give vs your bare word and obtrude vnto vs your owne fancies But your words are no Oracles nor your fācies rules for any to follow Handle these things therefore more soundly in your next And what you speak speak it frō the word of God In the meane time for better clearing of the truth and Martyrs I will show you my mind being ready notwithstanding to heare any that can show better from the word of God And so I pray you take this and all my writings First the word foundation is vsed in the scripture and therefore is of vs to be considered divers waies One is in respect of God and his election Of the foundation and fundamental points or of his Church and people called and sanctified in Christ 2. Tim. 2.19 Psal 87. Pro. 10.25 Another is in respect of the onely ground of all true faith and Churches which is Iesus Christ or of the first principles and speciall heads of Christian religion Mat. 16.15.16.17.18 1 Cor. 3.11 Esa 26.16 1 Pet. 2.6 with Heb. 6.1.2 A third is in respect of the Apostles and Prophets doctrine concerning Christ or of our receiving it and building therevpon Ephes 2.20 Rev. 21.14 1 Cor. 3 10-15 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Luk. 6.48.49 Now which way soever you take it there is no question but the Martyrs although they erred through ignorance of that time in some waightie points of Christs Religion which you call fundamentall yet were notwithstanding holy Martyrs For touching the first of the exceptions aforesaid Gods foundation remained sure and sealed vnto them so as the Lord knew them to be his and they also were sanctified both to witnes vnto death the truth then called in question and to depart from the contrarie iniquitie Touching the second and third they both beleeved in Iesus Christ as it pleased God to reveale him in their age by the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles and they built firmely therevpon not stumbling at the word and disobeying it as is the manner of most now a daies but obeying and holding it forth vnto death So as when the stormes and floods of persecution beat vpon them they were not shaken from the truth they testified but remained constant to the end even when the politick Statutes of Princes the subtill arguments of the learned the earnest perswasion of their friends the great losse of their goods liberty estimation in the world finally the most cruell vsage and tirannie of the Adversaries as it were so many waves and tempests stronglie assailed to drive them a contrarie course Thus were they faithfull to God and loved not their lives vnto death as their Martyrdome proclaimeth to all the world howsoever you could be content it seemeth for any the more advantage to your selves to lay their honour in the dust Secondly in this question we are to discerne betweeen the errors them selves and between the persons that hold them The errours may in their nature be fundamentall as you speak and yet the persons erring therein of ignorance not striving against the light revealed but indevoring to walk faithfully in the truth they see may through Gods mercie in Christ be saved For example some of the Corinthians that denied * 1 Cor. 15.12 the resurrection of the body and some of the Galatians that erred about “ Gal. 4.9.10.21 5.2.3.10 and 6.12.13.15 Circumcision the Law although the errors were in their owne nature fundamentall as you will not deme yet might they that dyed in them before Paules epistles came to those Churches thereabout be saved of God As we * 1 Cor. 11.30.31.32 read that some were dead and chastised of God a-about their abuse of the Sacrament yet not condemned with the world Likewise of Abijah the sonne of Ieroboam that made Israell to sinne the ‡ 1 King 14.1.13 Scripture recordeth that God shewed him mercie because in him was found some goodnes toward the Lord God of Israell Where marke those words some goodnes By which appeareth that although he were as the rest in that generall apostasie of Israell which your self account fundamētal yet having some goodnes in him towards the Lord he found mercie at his hands Furthermore at this day concerning the errors of the Lutherans about cōsubstantiation and the person of Christ of the Anabaptists about Christs humanitie and denying Baptisme to the seed of the faithfull of the Papistes about trāsubstantiation the Popes supremacie c. I suppose that you will graunt both that these errors be fundamentall as touching the nature of the errors thēselves and that yet
by those and other your Articles and Iniunctions in our former answer alleadged to which yet we haue receyued no aunswer being directly Antichristian doe vtterlie destroy true Christianitie so as the people and Churches so professing and practising can not * Nota. in that estate by the word of God be iudged true Christians or the true constituted Churches of Christ Your similitudes are not against vs but against your selues in asmuch as coÌ„paring the doctrines of the Gospel which you professe with the whitenes of an Aethiopians teeth and your Antichristian Ministerie worship Courtes and coÌ„fusion of people with the blacknes of an Aethiopians body this and such like similitudes doe fitly declare your estate And the approving of your Churches black constitution by some white doctrines of the Gospel professed among you is as if you should reason thus An Aethiopian is white of his teeth there fore he is a white man A blacke Rauen is white of her bill therefore a blacke Rauen is a white biâ—d Now when you had received this aunswer and saw these comparisoÌ„s turned vpon your self then you devised another being not able to maintaine the former And this last you have published in your printed book as if it had ben in your written coppie which I aunswered where it was not at all The abuse is great not to me only but to the Reader inasmuch as these things were by you so published as if your last comparison neither were nor could be aunswered Let the Reader note this maner of dealing for such as it is The similitude now added to the rest is this My brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a woodden legge therefore my brother is no true man I aunswer that after your woonted maner you take for graunted that which you should prove viz that your Church in that constitution is as a man with an eye of glasse or woodden legge This I denie to be your case Prove it so to be if you can The Scripture describeth the false Church in their constitution specially touching the Ministerie not vnder the similitude of men vvith woodden legges or the like but vnder the similitude of ‡ Rev. 9.7.8.9.10 13.11 19.20 Locusts whose forme is like vnto horses prepared to battell with crovvnes on their head like gold vvith faces of men heare of vvomen teeth of Lyons habergions of yron vvings like charets tayles of scorpions and stings in them to hurt vvithall Now I would know of you Mr. Iacob whether these be men with woodden legges or monsters with mens faces In like manner whether the Churches which in their constitution chiefly of Ministerie do resemble these be like to men with some defects or to beasts with some resemblance of men Either therefore must you pâ—ove the constitution of your Church to be a true one as the man you speake on is which all may see you cannot do or this comparison fitteth not your turne We must mind and beleev what the Scripture teacheth not what you would beare vs in hand without any proof But it may be you would be vnderstood of the man of sinne spoken of 2 Thes 2. or of the whorish woman mentioned in the Revelation 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 17.1 If that be your meaning it is against your self and so applie it If you meane otherwise it fitteth not your case as I shewed before And thus the comparison applied to your estate is woodden that is absurd and glassie that is brittle such as will not bide a blow H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur Third Exception is That the 16. Article of consecrating Bishops and Priestes and the 6. and 35. Article of Apocripha and Homilies doe not agree with the Gospell What then Ergo our Churches profession and practise differ Most false For our Churches doe professe that these things doe agree vvith the Gospell vvell enough Also their practise is thereafter Or doe you conclude Ergo our Churches holde not Christ to saluation In deede so I tooke your purpose at the first but novve in plaine categoricall termes you auouch it That these things being directly Antichristian doe vtterly destroy true Christianity So then Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. were verie Antichrists and no true Christians As before also I trowe you affirmed Surely this grosse and wicked absurditie I could not open better then by this similitude This man hath a wodden legge an eye of glasse his nose deformed adde also if you will both his armes not naturall but framed to him of wood or what you will Ergo this is no true man Yes Sir for all this he is a true man For as much as all this concernes not the very life and being of a man though these be most vnnaturall additions and verie many The like doe I affirme of these externall corruptions in the Church Which my sentences you goe not about to refute but onely with words with bare yea and nay and no more Fr. Iohnson his aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 3. Exception YEt suffer me that I may speak and when I have spoken mocke on You say your Churches professe that the consecrating of Bishops and Priests the 6. 35. Articles of Apocrypha books and Homilies do agree with the Gospel well ynough and that your practise is thereafter Marke now what followeth herevpon The Apocrypha books to speak first of them have * Iudith 9.2.3.4 compared with Gen. 49.5.6.7 Ester Apocrypha 12.5 with Ester Canonicall 6.3 Est. Apocr 15.9.10 with Ester Canon 5.2 Ecclesiasticus 46.20 with Esa 57.2 Eccles 12.7 contradiction to the Scriptures ‡ Tob. 6.6.7.8 8.2.3 with 3.7.8 magik “ 1 Tob. 12.12.15 compared with 1 Tim. 2.5 blasphemy †Esdras 14.21.22.23 c. 2 Mach. 2 4-8 Tobit 5.11.12.13 with 12.15 1 Machab. 6.4.8.9.16 with 2 Machab. 1 13-16 and 9.1.5.7.9.28.29 fables ♣ 2 Machab. 12.44.45 14.41.42 Ecclesiastic 46.20 48.10 errors c. Therfore your Church by your owne confession professeth all these to agree with the Gospell well ynough practiseth thereafter A verie Christian professioÌ„ and practise in deed well beseeming the daughters of Babylon that mother of all abomination The like may be said of your blasphemies in the book according to which you consecrate Prelates and ordeine Priests receiving other Lordbishops Priests in office of Ministery besides Iesus Christ to whoÌ„ this * 1 Cor. 12.5 Eph. 4.5.11.12 Heb. 7.23.24 1 Pet. 5.4 honour doth onely beloÌ„g And not that only but ordeining your Priests with further blasphemy when the Prelats say to every of you kneeling at their feet to be ordained Receive the holy ghosts whose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven whose sins thou dost retaine they are retained These things being so to omit manie other that might be alleadged out of those and the rest of your books how can we but think as we do of the estate of your Church Would you
as †The Sixe waterpots of the Iewishe purifyings Iohn 2.6 Therefore your Replies here are most vaine and false Lastlie in pag. 84. you will not confesse your contrarietie that is to say betweene this your Second Reason and certen wordes in your Sixt Reason But the greater is your sinne to doe euill and defende it too Here in this Reason pag. 82. you would haue this scripture Mat. 15. to be meant against such vaine worshippers that they become heereby no true Church Or els what doe you vrge it against vs But in your Sixt Reason following you say That the Iewes euen nowe when these words were applyed to them were the true worshippers of God Are not these contrarie I pray you then reconcile them Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the. 2. Reason VVHhatsoeuer you brought against the last Exception before is there answered Pag. 58. 59. 60. 61. Your woodden leg will not make your Reply go for currant neyther can your glassy eye see how to take 〈◊〉 my aunswer The vanitie of this comparison of yours applied to your estate I have already discovered And for Mr Cranmer Ridley c. I have aunswered before Pag. 40. 41. 59. 60. Divers of the differences there noted may likewise serve for * Yet if it be still with Geneva as you say the thing as of very yll note If it be not so note M. Iacob Geneva Besides that the constitution of that Church is in the way of Christ whereas yours is in the apostasy of Antichrist And so there is no comparing of your estate and theirs togeather although in some things it may be they walke corruptly and you in other with some show of piety Your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Iacob would aswell help the Iewes to have confuted the Prophet Esay and our Saviour Christ as it doth you For I pray you did the doctrine and Law of their Church appoint all Gods vvorship by mens precepts or yet the chiefest part of it Or had it ben of waight if they had thus aunswered Christ and his Prophets as you do here Shall I now say you play the ignorant Sophister yea and the false Sophister too And where you say next Your Preaching Sacraments Prayers c. are not appointed by mens precepts Is not this also a manifest vntruth Let your Offices of Ministery by vertue of which these are administred your Prelates silencing of you at their pleasure your Iniunctions Canons Articles Common prayer book according to which you are appointed and bound to administer all your holy things Let these I say speak indifferently between vs. Yea let your owne men speak and they will testify against you In the second Admonition to the Parliament they affirme †2 Admon pag. 6. That although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preachers may vvithout great dāger of the Lavves vtter all the truth comprised in the book of God It is so circunscribed and vvrapt vvithin the cōpasse of Statutes Penalties Iniunctions Articles Canons c. Also that these may not be offended against but vvith more daunger then to offend against the Bible Yea that the Bible must have no further scope then by these it is assigned Adde herevnto your Book of common prayer by which you are enioyned how to administer your Sacraments what to pray when to exhort c. Which likewise you may not break but with more danger then to offend against the Bible as in the Admonition aforesaid is testifyed Mynd also that your Church is enioined in the service of God publikly to read the Apocrypha books which have errors fables magik blasphemy c. and to leave altogeather vnread some parts of the Canonicall Scripture as being you say least edifying might best be spared as the book of Canticles and other parts of the Old Testament And in the New also part of the first Chapter of Mathevv and of the 3. of Luke and almost the whole Book of the Revelation Of which the Spirit of God saith expressely Blessed is he that readeth Rev. 1.3 and they that heare the vvords of this Prophecy c. For proof hereof see the Kalender and Rubrick in your book of Commō Prayer for the order of reading the Scripture in your Church throughout the yeare Speak now your self Mr. Iacob Is it not cleare that your Preaching Sacraments Prayer c. are appointed by mens precepts Vnles you will say Your Iniunctions Canons Articles Statutes Common prayer book c. be not the precepts of men As it may be you will not stick much at it if you can colour the matter with a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or like deceit So Christian a Disputer and conscionable you are Againe Is the Papists vvhole vvorship or the chiefest part of it otherwise by the precepts of men then yours is It may be you will take pepper in the nose that I aske you this For I perceive your little pacyence is already much moved You shall not therefore heare it of me because I would not put you out of all quyet I will but tell you what your owne men say of it at whose hands I doubt not but you will take it better Thus then they say speaking of your estate * 2 Admon pag. 7. He that could not abide straunge fyer in the old Lavv but burnt them that vsed it vvhat vvill he do to vs in the nevv Lavv that erect a nevv and straunge course or vvord to rule his Church by What did the Pope but so He did suffer Gods vvorde to have a course as far as it pleaseth him so that he might have the vvhole authority above it What now Mr Iacob How will you aunswer your owne men Or will you be so good to the Papists your grandsiers as a little to help them at a dead lift with your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So may they plead for their worship against this Scripture Mat. 15.9 opposed vnto them by the Martyrs as you do for yours Specially seing your Book of common prayer was taken out of their Portuis and your Book of consecrating Bishops and Priests out of their Pontificall So that if theirs then yours also must needs be according to the precepts of men yea of Antichrist that man of sinne Thus you have aunswer enough to this if you have eye enough to see it In your Second note because this Scripture was spoken to them that were of a visible Church c. you say Mat. 15.9 Therefore it affirmeth nothing against you This is a very straunge consequence Have not your selves alledged it against the Papists and would you admit of such an answer I shewed heretofore that the things verifyed sometymes of the members of a true Church may fitly be alledged against a false Church and yet not iustify them in such estate to be a true one See the Scriptures †Pag. 83. there quoted which by the Martyrs and others are often
so alledged against the Papists Vnto which you can say nothing Besides also the Iewes being a true Church and yet their worship vnto many of them by their traditions proving to be in vaine it followeth more strongly against the false Church and her abominations which are far mo and of another nature then those in Iewry Thus should you apply it to your selves Lastlie minde that now you are driven to saie you never denied but this Scripture condemneth your corruptions So by your owne confessiō your worship of God is in vayne No part of it is free from your corruptions Let such then ioine with you therein as have pleasure in vaine worship 2 Thes 2.12 vvith Exod. 20.5 Christ never communicated in any such but rebuked it and all them that worshipped God in such maner even this Scripture being witnes Therefore it maketh notablie against you and for vs as is before observed 1. In your Replie to the first point of my Aunsvver next following you can not saie a word against it Yet will you not yeeld Still you would have me graunt that which I denie and you should prove viz That in your estate you are a true Church c. The contrarie whereof I have proved ‡ Pag. 3. 12. 16. 22. 33. 59. 60. 61. 63. c. before Therefore is it not yet in question 2. To the second you yeeld with shame enough though your follie be so great as you see it not For first you neither do nor can aunswer but against your selves to that which I asked concerning Christ and his Apostles vvhether they communicated in those traditions of the Ieevves or not If by your silence you consent that they did not as in deed the truth is then by their exāple are we also bound not to partake in yours If you saie they did then you both blaspheme Christ making him a sinner and give the holy Ghost the lie who in †Mat. 15.2.13.14 this verie Chapter testifies the contrarie Thus whatsoever you shall aunswer it maketh against you excedinglie And because you answer not it importeth that you yeeld So also doth that most plainlie which here you speak for your self You saie you seek not to iustify your partaking in your traditions c. Yes Mr Iacob you seek it but you are ashamed to professe it Els why condemne you vs for not partaking therein I know you will say as is in the Preface of your book that your minde is we should partake with you in your lavvfull things not in your traditions But for shame leave this follie None can ioyne with any of your Churches or Ministerie but they must needs partake with your Antichristian traditions Shew the contrarie in any Minister or Church of the Land and we yeeld Otherwise what do you but yeeld The renouncing you speak of is in word not in work You renounce evill with your lippes but approve it in your deeds And thus is verified vpon you that which Christ out of the Prophet spake in the †Mat. 15.8 place aforesaid This people dravveth neare vnto me vvith their mouth and honoreth me vvith the lippes but their heart is far from me And where you speak of such as do in simplicity partake of your traditions to be true Christians nevertheles Albeit in your constitution they can not by the word of God so be counted Pag. 3. 7. 16. 33. 63. c. as hath ben proved yet I pray tell vs what then you think of those that partake with your traditions not of simplicity but as your self do that is knowing them to be against the Second Commaundement of Antichrist vaine vvorshipp never but nought c. 3. In the third point of my aunsvver I noted two differences between your case and the Iewes the first towching the Law it self the second towching the observation of it For the Lavv I shewed that the ordinance of God given by Moses even the written word being the Law of that Church it did not appoint but forbid those traditions Yours contrarilie For the observation I shewed that the traditions were not generallie observed of all the members of that Church as yours be Both these I proved by the Scripture Luk. 1 5-10 2.21 c. Mat. 5.17 8.4 15.2 Ioh. 10.34 Where marke in Iohn those words of Christ to the Iewes In your Law speaking of the written word Now vnto this so plaine evidence you aunswer nothing at all to the purpose For the former you seem at first to yeeld that these traditions were not commaunded by the Law of that Church But yet being so generally received and they rebuked who vsed them not you count it to be as good Which I denie Then you would prove these to be the Law of that Church because they are called †Mar. 7.5 the Traditions of the Elders But even by this appeareth that they were not the Law of that Church but a Tradition received from hand to hand from their forefathers Which therefore bound not anie neither were observed by all as it is with you Neither was their case then as the Iewes is now with their Thalmud or as the Turks with their Alcoran neither as the Papists or yours with the Canon Law If it had ben such then could they not have ben a true Church And to vnderstand this to be the ordinance of their present Governours as to serve your turne you could be content is altogeather without ground It is both against the common vse of the word Tradition here vrged and against the true meaning of the word Elders in this place Mat. 5 21.27.33 which plainelie appeareth by another word vsed in Mat. 5. in such sence as this is here and in stead thereof signifying Them of old tyme or the like For the latter that is the observation you would prove out of * Mar. 7.3 Mark that they were generally received If you meane they were received of very many but not of all you speak nothing against that which I said If you meane they were received of all among them as the words seem to sound then you misvnderstand and misalledge that Scripture I will shew it by a like speach vsed also by Mark in another place where he saith all the countrey of Iudea and they of Ierusalem came out to Iohn †Mar. 1.5 and vvere all baptised of him c. Now by the word All in this place he meaneth onely a great many and not everie one as the word might seem to import For that all were not baptised of him is evident both by “ Mat. 21.32 Luk. 7.30 other Scriptures and by this reason that if all Iudea and Ierusalem had ben baptized of him then had they all confessed their sinnes and become disciples Which all men know was far otherwise Likewise in this place although he saie All the Ievves because they were many yet even in the ‡ Mar. 7.2 next verse going before he saieth the
to deny it Remember it is ‡ Of this see Before Pag. 7. 8. one thing for men to say such may be accounted true Christians being considered apart from the Church constitution wherein they stand and another to say such as towching their Chur-constitution are to be accounted true Christians 3. Thirdly set the Reader mynd how vnder the terme of externall ceremonies you would still hide the impiety of your false worship and most filthy heap of your Antichristian abominations 4. Fourthly set you downe by the word of God what is fundamentall and see if I prove not the Antichristian errors among you to be such They subvert Christs office they are doctrines of Diuels Col. 2.8 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Rev. 14 9-12 2 Thes 2 3-12 marks of the Beast lyes and vnrighteousnes of Antichrist the mystery of iniquity the apostasy of the sonne of perdition c. Consider now with your self what will follow herevpon 5. Fiftly although your errors were not fundamentall yet for the Proposition it skilleth not so as your constitution be such as is there spoken of Eyther therefore must you prove your constitution to be otherwise or els both the Proposition and the Assumption stand firme against you as I have proved for both 6. For Mr Cranmer c. whose errors you oppose more vnto vs then any word of God I have aunswered alreadie and shewed how their case and yours is not alike Pag 40. 41. Besides that I doubt not but some erring in fundamentall points as divers of the Martyrs have done may yet be partakers of salvation Of which point see more in the second Exception * Pa. 44. c before and the “ The answer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 7. Reasō next Reason hereafter following 7. Lastly concerning your confident auouch in the presence of God know you not that the Fryers and Monks for their callings and all false worshippers for their service of God will auouch as much and as confidently as you do here Yea and alledge that it is no lesse then horrible blasphemy against God and his Saints to say the contrarie Is this therefore of any waight for their defence No more then for yours To turne your owne words then vpon your self you bring not a syllable or one letter in all your writing neither can you for warrant of your estate neither against that I have said to the contrary but bare begging of the controversie which is infinite often and meer sophisticall dealing everie where rife throughout your Replies Of the third Exception and first and second Reasons enough is said before in the handling of them All the Sophistry you have will not prove them sophisticall If you think good you may trie your skill once againe Yet remember how you are foyled alreadie and know that still you shall fynde the light of the truth to shine and the power thereof to prevaile against you as alway it hath and will against all adversaries whōsoever For the Samaritans whose example proveth the Proposition I noted first that most excellent truths may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe not be in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom appertaine the couenants c. This you passe by as if you saw it not Belike that your Reader might the lesse mind it Next I required proof for that you said The Samaritans beleued not in the Messias Now in stead of proof you bring vs it might be if it were so let it be howsoever c. But Ifs and And 's cannot be received for proof Speciallie when such evidence is shewed for their faith in the Messiah as may be seen in Ioh. 4.25.26.29.30.39 Where you say you hold your faith and doctrine by the word professedly as the publik ordinance of your Church sheweth I neither heare you prove it nor see the ordinance of your Church shew it The contrarie I have declared before and occasion there will be to speake of it againe In the meane tyme tell me whether you hold by the word professedly your faith and doctrine towching the Hierarchy the forbidding of meats and mariage and the other particulars mentioned before Pag. 63. c. Tell me also whether your Churches faith and doctrine for Christs descension into Hell be held by the word professedly among you viz That Christs soule went downe into Hell whiles his body lay in the grave I know Mr Iacob for your part you will not sticke to say your Churches doctrine is not thus For so I remember you have aunswered D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester ‡ in a treatise which you wrote against him concerning this point But how do you shew it in that book of yours H.I. his treatise of Christs suffrings descending into Hell Pag. 172. 173 Thus forsooth The Articles of the Synod holden in K. Edwards tyme have thus As Christ dyed for vs and was buried so also it is to be beleeved that he went downe into Hell For his body lay in the grave vntill the Resurrection but his spirit gone out from it was with the Spirits which were deteined in prison or in Hell and preached vnto them as the place of Peter testifyeth But your Synod holden synce in the yeare 1562. you say correcteth it and hath thus onely As Christ dyed for vs and was buried so we are to beleve also that he descended into Hell Which you translate thus that he went vnto the Dead The rest following in the Article of the former Synod your latter doth not mention Herevpon you gather thus It repeateth and ratifyeth part of the foresaid Article in expresse words but part of it euen * Not all all and every whit that conteineth this doctrine expressly of Christs going down to the Hell of the damned it cutteth of it putteth out it casteth away Therefore you conclude that the publik sentence of your Churches yea the Law of the Land confirming the same is against this opinion of Christs descending into Hell But in earnest Mr Iacob do you think this reason is good Then for your learning marke this which followeth as good as yours and all one The Letany ♣ See the Books of Cōmon Prayer Ordering Priests c. printed in K. Edw. tyme. in K. Edwards tyme ran thus From the tyranny of the Bishop of Rome and all his detestable enormityes good Lord deliver vs. But your Letany synce in this Queens tyme correcteth it not mentioning this clause at all It repeateth and ratifyeth part of that Letany in expresse words but part of it even all and every whit of the clause aforsaid concerning the Bishop of Rome and his enormityes to be prayed against it cutteth of it putteth out it casteth away Look in all your books of Common prayer now published and you shall fynd it as I say Therefore by your Logick it will follow that the publik sentence of your Churches yea the Law of the Land confirming the same is against this that
intolerable blame and foule error whereof you speak As for example you professe the forbidding of meats and mariage at certaine tymes the worship prescribed in your Service-book and other the like by read prayer devised Homilyes Saints dayes Communion to one alone women to baptize Ministery of Priests and Prelates Apocrypha and the rest before mētioned Pag. 63. c. Are these after the rule of the written Law Next followed the Assumption to be aunswered which was this Such is the ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblyes of England as they worship God after a false maner Pag. 106. never appointed by him self nor allowed in his vvord This was proved by your confusion of People counterfet Ministery Service c. Now neyther this Assumption nor proof thereof did or do you denie So here againe you yeeld the cause And whereas you were told of hiding the fowle heap of your Abominations vnder the terme of Ceremonies you neither denie it nor amend it but do still vse the same fraude Mind it and amend it hereafter Now where you say it is a iust defence of your Ministery vvorship estate to be as tovvching the substance and foundation of Christianity sound and acceptable to God if your Assemblies throughout the Land have not their consciences convicted therein You may blush for shame to speak so sencelesslie If you meane that your Ministerie worship and estate is not in truth of the substance and foundation of Christianitie then by your owne words you stand in a straunge and fearfull estate besides that you speak not to the point in hand and so there is in your speach no sence at all Or if you meane that howsoever your Ministery worship and estate be whether approved of God or not whether Antichristian or whatsoever els yet your Church-constitution is for substance and foundation of Christianitie sound and acceptable to God then is your speach againe most senceles and absurd For how is it possible that your Ministerie worship and estate should be condemned by God Antichristian or the like and yet your Church-constitution either have the substance and foundation of Christianitie or be in such a way sound and acceptable to God To be disallowed of God and to be acceptable to him are contraries Finally howsoever your meaning be yet still your speach is senceles and vntrue For * Luk. 12.47.48 Hos 4 1-6 2 Thes 1.8 Rev. 14.9.10.11 sinne is sinne before God and so to be estemed of vs though not so grievous before as after conviccion And mens consciences often are convinced when they will not acknowledge it but withstand the truth notwithstanding ‡ Esa 6.9.10 Act. 14.2 28 23-27 Ier. 17.9.10 For both which see the Scriptures here quoted Which refute your assertion sufficientlie Besides that you have without all sence fancyed to your self such a maner of conviction as cannot eyther be knowen or expected Of which point I have spoken before Pag 42.43 How straunge is it also that you say next you knovv this is no iust defence of your vvhole Ministery estate and maner of vvorship vvhich you never intended you say much lesse professed to iustify How agrees this with the title of your book which you call A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Or will you seem to plead for that which you know can not be iustifyed Or will you have vs admit of an vnjust defence For your self confesse this is not a iust one Or is the Office Entrance Administration and Maintenance of some of your Ministers lawfull of others vnlawful and so likewise some parts of your estate and worship For you say here this defends not the vvhole Deale plainelie then Mr Iacob and shew which you hold lawfull which vnlawfull and your proof of both So will appeare I doubt not even by your self both that our separation is just and of necessity to be made from your Ministery vvorship c. and that your defence of them is most silly and senceles That which you speak of Aarons line I said before was a mistaking now I say it is a grosse error And you may be ashamed thus to hide it whenas you should rather acknowledge it when it is shewed you As for the meaning Pag. 105. which you have now coined and newlie added in the margent your words will not beare it Let others judge Thus the defence you make for your self is as absurd as that which you make for your Church After this you are earnest to perswade vs that the vvord of God though it be as plaine and full in it self yet is not so plaine for our vnderstanding vse novv as it vvas for the Ievves vnder the Lavv. An assertion most false most impious such as the very Papists I think would be ashamed of Was it ever heard afore that the Gospell of Christ should be more obscure for our vnderstanding and vse now then the Law of Moses was for the Iewes then Was not Christ think you as willing as able as carefull to explane it for our vnderstanding and vse as Moses was for theirs Or doth not Christ give his Spirit to his people now aswel as he did then Or hath he taken away those dimme shadowes and ceremonies to bring now a cloud of darkenes in stead thereof Or is it false which the Prophets foretold and the Apostles testify to be accomplished for abundance of knowledge and vnderstāding in the tyme of the Gospell far above that which was in the tyme of the Law Compare together these Scriptures following and see if the contrary to that you say be not most true Esa 11.9 Ier. 31.33.34 with 2 Cor. 3. cap. 4.3.4 Heb. 8.10.11 Ioel. 2.28.29 vvith Act. 2.17.18 Hab. 2.2 2 Pet. 1.19 1 Ioh. 5.20 Rev. 1.3 22.18.19 But you pretend three reasons of this your assertion So also did Saul of his action 1 Sam. 13.11.12 Neither was Ieroboam himself without colour for his devised worship as I noted before But this is the auncient cloke of sinne with which it hath ben woont alway to hide it self even from the tyme of our first parents Gen. 3.6.12.13 And tell me your self If pretences would serve what Schismatickes Hereticks Apostates factious or contentious men ever was there that had not store of such so both deceiuing others and being deceived themselves Yet let vs now examine yours You pretend 1 discontinuance a long season of the simple offices of Pastors Teachers Elders and continuance of the Prelacy all that vvhile So might Israell have alledged 2. Chron. 15.3 Had it therefore ben of waight And this pretence might far better serve the Papist then it can you who confesse Rome to be Babylon and know that your Prelacy Priesthood and worship came from thence not from Ierusalem Besides how will you prove this cōtinuance and discontinuance to have ben so manie thousand yeares as you speak of Yet if it were the word of God is still as plaine to
am I from being of your mynd who think the truth wholy destroied in all such as have served Idols or held any other fundamentall errors Consider also the Aethiopian Churches which retaine many of Moses ceremonyes and of the grosse points of Popery And the Greek Churches erring greatlie of old about Freewill and synce that tyme about the Person and proceeding of the holy Ghost besides other very great errors among them Not to speak of the Lutherans holding with other errors that of Consubstantiation which by necessarie consequence overthroweth Christs humane nature and therefore is fundamentall in your owne account Will you now say that none of these can have a lively saving faith I dare not be of your mynd I hope and am perswaded otherwise Nay even for the Papists and others of whom you speak I dare not with you say peremptorilie of them all from the first arising of their errors they are vtterly abolished from Christ My reason I shewed before out of the Papists owne doctrine To which I refer you with this note Pag. 47. that as on the one hand I acknowledge * Exo. 33.19 Rom. 9.15 God sheweth mercy to whom he will so on the other hand I am perswaded neither can I see otherwise by the word of God but whosoever liveth and dyeth a Papist and member of that Church of Antichrist in the knowledge profession and maintenance of that Religion in the parts thereof can not of vs be esteemed to live and dy in the state of salvation And this I speak as of all such generallie so speciallie of them which have lived synce the height and clearer manifestation of that apostasy 2 Thes 2 3-12 Rev. 13.8.11 17. 18. 19. chap. Such also take I to be the case of the Anabaptists Arrians and the like departing from true Churches and being once coÌ„victed Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.25.38 1 Ioh. 2.19 Iud. ver 19. This being noted I could now further alledge against your peremptory coÌ„demnation of all such as have held any fundamentall errors that even your selves yea the chiefest pillars of your Church are of a contrary judgement herein And for proof I could cite D. Whitgift now your great Archb. in his ‡ last book against Mr Cartvvright pag. 83. But because where sound judgement is needfull in question of Religion his testimony is but of small valew I will not stand vpon it but refer you rather to Mr Iewell a Prelate also yet a man otherwise worthy to be reverented both for his suffrings in Q. Maryes dayes and for his gifts and labours employed in defence of sundry points of the truth against the Papists This Mr Iewell alledging the examples of Papias Apollinarius Victorinus Tertullianus Iewels defeÌ„ce of the Apology Pag. 337. 338. Lactantius and others in former tymes confesseth that both they defended the heresy of the Chiliastae which said that Christ after the generall iudgement should dwell here a thousand yeares together vpoÌ„ the earth and yet notwithstanding were godly and worthy members of the Church of God So also he thought of Irenaeus though he held besides the former heresy this also Ibid. that Man at the beginning when he was first created was vnperfect And of Hilary who affirmed both that ‡ Ibid. pag. 353. Christ received not flesh of the blessed Virgin and that the flesh of Christ was impassible and could feel no grief Also of the Picardes concerning whom when Harding the Papist objected †Iewels Rep. to Harding Pag. 119. that sometyme they pulled out their eye and cast it froÌ„ them he aunswereth it was an error of simplicity if they did it much like the error of Origen and others who ghelded themselves for the Kindome of heaven Which two last things of the Picards and Origen it may be you include in your second sort of fundamentall errors and the other before in your first and so account them all without saving faith and vtterly abolished from Christ Yet you see the chief governors of your Church are otherwise minded Yea and your Church it self for Mr Iewels books were published with consent and speciall priuiledge thereof Note this well 2 Some againe who erre not in any fâ—ndamentall point as you distinguish yet no doubt shall perish and be condemned As for not relieving the poore and people of God for not yeelding obedience to Christ but fearing of man more then God for want of sanctification for hypocrisy contention wicked life c. Mat. 25 41-46 Ioh. 3.36 Mat. 23. chap. Rom. 2.8 1 Thes 4 3-6 Ephes 5 3-6 Gal. 5.19.20.21 Neither can you be ignorant but that “ Deut. 27.26 Rom. 6.23 Ezec. 18.10.11 Iam. 2.10 curse and death by the Law of God is threatned to all sinne even to the least Yea and that the very infants through originall sinne alone are subiect herevnto Rom. 5.14 1 Cor. 7.14 For your defence then it is not sufficient though it were graunted that you hold the Foundation and erre not in any fundamentall point Your persisting in false worship and disobeying the ordinance of Christ howsoever you consider it sufficeth to make your estate vnlawfull and subiect to condemnation God imputing it vnto you Thus at once all your building and defence of your Church falleth to the ground But yet that you deceive not your self nor your Reader in this point anie more mynd if your Church do not also hold and mainteine sundry Fundamentall errors against the true faith of Christ For example Fundamentall errors in the Churche of England 1. Your self say before * pag. 28. 35. that your Church holdeth all outward gouernement and ceremonyes to be vnwritten and vncertayne but at the arbitrary appointment of the Church and Magistrate c. That this is a fundamentall error appeareth thus 1. It doth wholie take away and annihilate the Second commaundement 2. It maketh Christ the Sonne inferior to Moses the servant 3. It vpholdeth these and the like fundamentall errors viz That it is not written nor certaine but at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether the Pope be to be head of the Church or Christ onelie Whether now we may retayne the Priesthood of Levi the Passeover Circuncision c. For these concerne the outward gouernement and ceremonies of the Church 2. Your Church holdeth that Christ in his soule descended into Hell Which I haue shewed †before to be your Churches opinion Pag. 116. And who knoweth not that Whitgift P. of Canterbury Bilson P. of Winchester Chaderton P. of Lincolne with other the pillers of your Church do thus hold and mainteine And that it is Fundamentall your self I suppose will not denie See but your owne book against D. Bilson about this question Pag. 92. 127. 133. 148. 156. 162. 165. 174. 3. Your Churches Ministery worship confusion and governement are such as they profane and disanull Christs office of Mediation that is of his Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome That this is Fundamentall against
thus in deed you do still shew your brasen forhead and seared conscience Towching Corah Dathan Abiram c. besides that I have aunswered to your Reply in the Second exception Pag. 53. I have also purposely in many particulars compared their case and yours together in the Sixt Reason Pag. 130. Which if you can you may refute in your next or by silence give place to the truth Where I proved by sundry other Scriptures compared with this to Timothy Pag. 139. 140 that the Romish harlot and her children are here properly and specially deciphered you aunswer not one word vnto it Nay you are so turned out of all your shifts as even now when you would shift it of to Martion and Tacianus you giue more evidēce that it resteth on your owne heads rather then on theirs And this I prove by comparing together your saying here with the Apostles there You say here that Martion and Tatianus did Fundamentally fall from the faith because they simply forbad those good ordinances of God Mariage and meats even against the light of conscience and nature presumptuously quenching the instinct thereof Now if this were so Mr Iacob then by your owne saying they did not speak falsehood in hypocrisy but in open and presumptuous blasphemie Whereas the Apostle noteth such expresselie as speak lyes in hypocrisy 1 Tim. 4.2.3 And such in very deed I proved your case and the Papists to be in my former aunswer Pag. 137. c. Against which you can bring nothing at all Yet you blush not to say you passe by my puestions and demaunds about the Papists and their errors as more vayne then pertinent Whereas in deed the truth is that the questions and reasons do so nearly concerne both the Papists and your selves as you dare not medle with them Otherwise if you could you should at least not onely have said but some way proued them to be vaine But this labour it may be your reserve to your next Reply If so then examine them in particular and shew the vanity of them from point to point Els know they are so pertinēt as here againe you are brought to a playne Non plus And because in my former aunswer I did but brieflie towch that point of your speaking lyes through hypocrisy I will for further evidence of this Scripture against you mention here some few particulars mo 1. It cannot be denyed but you worship God by a Service book taken out of the Popes portuis and by many other the inventions af men Yet you pretend that you worship God in spirit and truth according to his word A lye in hypocrisy 2. Your Churches Ministers and people stand subiect to other Archbishops and Lordbishops then Iesus Christ and to their Courts Canons Excommunications c. Yet you beare men in hād that you receive Christ only as Lord and King of the Church and obey his Lawes and ordinances Another lye in hypocrisy 3. Your Hierarchy and whole Ministery from the highest Archbishop to the lowest Priest is Antichristian in you offices entrance administration maintenance Yet who knoweth not that in all these you perswade the world you are the Ministers of Iesus Christ Falsehood in hypocrisy 4. You still banish and imprison vs because we separate from your Antichristian estate and endevour to keep the faith and ordinance of Christ Yet you give out that we suffer more then we need that we are iustlie punished as ennemyes to the State as Schismaticks Hereticks seditious c. Another lye in hypocrisy 5. Finallie even the truths which you teach and professe what are they els in your estate but the sheeps clothing of your wolvish Hierarchy and Priesthood by meanes whereof you deceive and devoure the more Lo here a tast of your speaking lyes in hypocrisy and if you will also of your consciences burnt vvith an hote yron Besides these in your Church note also in your self in particular how even here you do sclaunder me and yet pretend that it is I which sclaunder you Neither sufficeth it you in this one place to do it once as I shewed before Pag. 149. But here againe you will needs double it that we might the better note this propertie in your self which yet you shame not falsely to lay vpon me And because you will not seem to want colour for it you pretend this that I say the words of your first Reply imported such onely to depart from the faith as fall from it totally To depart from the faith I say so as in that estate they cannot by the word of God be estemed true Christians Reason 7. Pag. 135. For this was the point which I proved and you denyed Now towching this matter the case is so verie plaine as I neither need nor will do anie more for your conviction therein but set downe your owne words as they were at first and then with a note concerning your dealing synce leave the iudgement thereof to the Reader when he shall have compared together the words of your Reply and of my Aunsvver Neither of which you love to keep vnto For your words then thus it was When against your Church I had proved by the Apostles testimonie that forasmuch as all such depart from the faith as forbid Mariage and Meats therefore also your Church so doth vvhich not only forbiddeth these things the true Ministery vvorship of God vvithall but also commaundeth a false c. You did then answer thus word for word The Popish forbidding of Mariage and of Meats if they vvere no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy ceremonies simply Neither do they make vs the Protestans to be such The Papists fall from Christ in other points namely The Papall supremacy c. These were your words then The other clauses which now you have annexed in the Margent and Reply it self though they help you no whit neither yet were they added synce you receyved my Answer as I noted before Pag. 141. Let the Reader mynd this And withall these two things 1. That now you note in the margent both “ here and in the Eight Reason following Pag. 136. that you think the vvord fundamentally fitter to be here vsed then the word totally And why fitter I pray you but because this word totally implyeth that directlie which I inferred therevpon in my Answer Pag. 136. c. 2. That whereas you did at first annexe a clause concerning the Apostles meaning that in these points they depart from the faith not absolutly and vvholy this also is so far from helping you as it maketh altogether against you howsoever you would perswade otherwise in this your latter Reply both in the beginning and end thereof Pag. 141. 142. Which will yet more fully appeare even to the most simple whensoever you shall answer the particular questiōs and obiectiōs which I propounded in my former Answer concerning the Papists and your selves For which
a true Reason it maketh Maister Cranmer c. denyers of the faith and not true Christians also For maintenance whereof you have here not one poore vvord at all Tovvching that you say we cannot deny but graunt that we departe from and deny the faith in our Ministery I have told you hovv in my ansvver to your 7. Reason Also see my Replyes to your 2. Exception Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 8. Reason NOw that all your shifts fayle you come with Ifs and And 's If the Apostle meane this and If he meane that c. As if the Apostles * words were not playne 1 Tim. 5.8 so as the meaning may easily be discerned of anie that is not wilfullie blynd Read and mynd in all such cases and Scriptures that which is written Prov. 8.9 with Act. 28.26.27 But you say the Apostle may very well meane both such as neglect their houshold against convenient Christian providence and such as do it against the light of conscience and natures instinct If the first then you deny the Assumption that is the Apostles owne saying And thus againe you give the holy Ghost the lye If the latter then you deny the Proposition And then you must prove that thus they do it For who knoweth not that such will not for this case any more then you for yours confesse that they do it against light of conscience c. Nay will they not say as stiflie as you that this concerneth not them And moreover is not that also which is light in one mans conscience often darke in another mans by one meanes or other See it in an example One of your professors in London runneth to all your Sermons and Lectures from place to place throughout the City every day and every houre By this meanes he neglecteth his familie You tell him he doth it against light of conscience and natures instinct He denyes it and saith he doth it not so but as being perswaded in his conscience that he must first seek the kingdome of God and that then all outward things shal be cast to him and his Herevpon in a blynd zeale he doth as aforesaid Now tell me Is not this man notwithstanding within compasse of the Apostles rule here spoken of Yet will he stand against it for his case as stiffe as you for yours yea and alledge for himself more colour and show of Reason then you do or can for your Hierarchy c. So then both the Proposition and Assumption stand firme against you and therefore also the whole Reason Now here againe being loth belike to give them any rest you call for Mr Cranmer c. As if they were your Pages to wayte at your heeles on every call and to serve your turne at every need whether they will or not Never were poore men in all the world I think made such a stale But they serve you accordingly They let you commaund and go without For every where you commaund their names and yet alway go without their fellowship As I have shewed before in particular Pag. 40. 41. Towching your graunt let the Reader note here againe that you yeeld you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery c. You say you have before told vs how But what you have said before is there aunswered and taken away And besides for vs it is sufficient that it is done Look you vnto it how you do it It may be some of you do it of ignorance some of knowledge against the light of your owne consciēces some for feare of men some for love of the world some of contention or vaine glory some for their profit pleasure ease honour quyetnes or the like Thus I deny not but in the maner of doing there may be among you in these respects a divers measure and proportion of sinne But this concerneth not vs but your selves to look vnto and that greatlie Chap. 15. The Ninth Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THey which do otherwise teach and condiscend not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines all such by the rule of the Apostle are to be separated frō and therefore cannot in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 But such is the case of all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their ministery worship and Church constitution As appeareth both by the severall points of their false doctrine * Points of false doctrine els where noted and by the proofes “ Pag. 61. 63. 135. c. here before alledged out of their owne Canons Articles Iniunctions c. Therefore all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their Ministery worship and Church constitution are by the rule of the Apostle to be separated from neither can in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 9. Reason THis your last Reason is Separate from them that teach otherwise then the truth 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 We holding those Articles do teach diverse things in the Hierarchy c. that be otherwise then is truth Therefore we must be separated from and consequently we are no true Christians This is a fallacy also Separate from such Ergo separate wholy See my 1. and 2. Reply afore to the third Exception also the Aunswer to the two last Reasons of all the 7. and 8. We graunt therefore so farr forth as we hold otherwise then trueth so farr separate from vs but not any farther at all not wholy or absolutly And so the Apostle here meaneth Wherefore briefly Because you prove vs not wholy to deny the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Ievves Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 Therefore you ought not vvholy to separate from vs Neither to condemne vs vvholy as abolished from Christ no more then Maister Cranmer Ridley were vvith their Congregations in King Edwards tyme. And thus our Assumption in the beginning standeth firme The doctrine in the booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian. Cōclusion The contrary vvhereof is such a Paradox as hath not ben heard of till this day All reformed Churches in Europe doe and have alvvayes held othervvise Themselves †M. Barrow Mr. Penry Mr. Iohnson heretofore have acknovvledged and professed it The holy Martyrs that lived in King Edvvards dayes and dyed in Queene Maries dayes must be othervvise cut of from Christ vvho vvere true Christians by vertue of this doctrine and the practise thereof or verily not at all But now it is vvonder vvhat extreame passion hath driven them to this denyall Surely they see that it conuinceth flatly as indeed it doth their peremptory separation And therefore rather then they vvould
far separate from vs. Now you hold otherwise then the truth in all the particulars †before rehearsed towching your Prelacy Priesthood Sacraments Book of common prayer Pag. 63. c. confusion of people c. Thus far therefore you graunt we may and ought to separate from you And further we do not at all For there is not anie truth you hold which we also hold not with you So then in expresse words you yeeld vs the cause And yet further you yeeld it againe in that you do not defend by the Scripture your Hierarchy worship doctrines Canons Articles Iniunctions c. received and ioined vnto by all in your Church How absurd then and vngodlie is your denyall of so manifest a truth And how distempered is your brayne that can not perceive so plaine a contradiction with your self Your two fould sence of the Apostles words is a silly fiction of your owne head without anie ground or proof at all If you will have vs think otherwise bring warrant for the particulars of your distinction from the book of God But I pittie you Mr Iacob For I see you are brought to a low ebbe Who knowes not that this is the very last refuge of all ennemyes of the truth when they are pressed with evidence of Scripture so as they can not avoid it then to faine distinctions and to cast about for the sence as if that were hard and obscure which in deed is most plaine and easy Look in Bellarmine Bilson Whitgift Bridges and whosoever els have written against the truth if their dealing be not such This then doth not aunswer the Argument but proveth it rather to be vnaunswerable Tim. 6.5 As for the words The Apostle saying from such separate thy self if now you would know from whom Himself telleth it as plaine as may be If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines c. from such separate thy self vers 3. But such is your case in particular As hath ben proved in your Prelacy and the other abominations of Antichrist yet taught and mainteyned among you Therefore are we bound by this rule of the Apostle to separate our selves from you Els should we aunswer it to God at that day Of your continuall vayne distinctions of fundamentally wholy presumptuously simply c. ynough is said alreadie in the handling of the for mer Reasons As also of Mr Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs Whom here you set before vs againe as coleworts not twise but ten tymes sodden Leave this vsage of them Mr Iacob for they have left you long synce See before Pag. 40.41 Next you tell vs we may ioyne with you and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them Prove this and you say somewhat But I doubt we shall find you as slow in proving as you are rash in speaking Mind but these particulars following which I will name for example Can we receive your Priesthood from the Prelates or execute it vnder them Can we ioyne to your Service book or anie part of your worship and Ministery Can we receive the word or Sacraments from your Ministers in that constitution Can we remaine members of your confused Assemblyes Can we stand subiect to your Prelates and their Courts Canons censures c. Can we I say do these or anie of them and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them In your next Reply Mr Iacob declare vs this riddle if you can And in the meane tyme I will attribute it to your distempered conceit that you do thus every foot forget and contradict your self and yet discerne it not But what will you say too if such as ioyne with you in anie part of your worship suppose it be the best become thereby partakers of your whole worship and constitution even of the worst things that are among you therein To make it plaine and certaine vnto you mynd these proofs In Israell †1 Cor. 10.18 they that did eate of the sacrifices as “ 2 Sam. 1.4.5 the people might were thereby partakers of the whole Iewish religion yea even of the altar Vnto which yet they might not come at all but the Priest onelie Lev. 1. chap. c. Numb 18.7 Luc. 1.9.10 In Corinth the Christians that abhorred Idols and Idolatry yet when after the sacrifices were offred * 1 Cor. 10 14-22 8.4.10 they sate but in the Idol Temples to eat of the meats that had ben sacrificed which in †1 Cor. 10.25.26.27 other places they might have done became thereby partakers of the whole Idolatrous wprship though they were not present at it but as they thought abhorred it In like maner they which connnunicate in anie part of your worship become thereby partakers and guiltie of the whole though it may be neither you nor they so think So false it is which here you give out that we may ioine with some of your worship and Ministery and yet towch no part of your Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give them allowance For the Papists to omit that you aunswer not what I obiected you see and graunt readily that they are no true Christians but very Antichrists c. Yet for your selves though your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people false doctrines c. be meerlie Popish and Antichristian you will not see and acknowledge it Take heed least when you see yet you wink with your eyes and though you vnderstand yet you harden your heart because you will not be converted and healed Esa 6.9.10 Act. 28.26.27 For the question between vs let the Reader iudge how I have proved it and how you have quitted your self and your Churches Where you say the points of false doctrine in your Church are most falsly laid to your charge all may see here againe you have an hard forehead to deny anie thing and yet are so sottish you can prove nothing But you say you list not meddle with them at this present I easily beleev you They are so pregnant against you as it is no marvell if you have no list to do it Otherwise you shew list ynough to medle with anie thing that you think may cary any show against vs. But you must mynd the point is not what you list but what you ought to meddle withall You have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches in the estate wherein now they stand Therefore must you aunswer aswell for the false doctrines as for the true mainteined in your Church Els would the Papists iustify their case against you well ynough For this cause then must you aunswer aswell for your Book of cōmon prayer and other your books of Articles Canons Iniunctions c. as for that book of Articles which was published in the yeare 1562. For they conteine the doctrine and
constitution of your Church aswell as the other if not also more They are publiklie authorised among you aswell as the other whether you respect the Prelates and Clergy in the Conuocation house or the whole body of the Land in the Parliament They are generallie receyved professed and practised of all the people in every Parish and Cathedrall Church throughout the Land aswell as the other Yea and more too your selves being witnesses One of your owne Prophets Mr Giff. Di. of the strife of the Church Pag. 100. writing of your estate saith There be thousands which be men and women growen that if a man aske them how they shall be saved they cannot tell Neither can your felf deny this to be true How do they then know and professe the faith of your book of Articles Or will you say they are as ignorant of your service-Service-book and of your Prelates other Articles Iniunctions Courts c. vnto which they ioyne and submit dayly Either therefore you must meddle with the false doctrines and other publik books of your Church aswell as with that book of Articles whereof you speak or els you meddle not at all with the question between vs neither defend your Churches estate The question between vs is Whether the truths you professe together with the false doctrines and abominations of Antichrist retained among you do make you true Churches and I true Christiās in that estate If you keep not to this point you may make as faire a plea for the Church of Rome and all other Hereticks whilest you meddle not with their errors and false doctrines but looke onely at the truths they professe Mynd but the Papists profession concerning Christ and his full and sufficient satisfaction for all our sinnes whereof I spake before Pag. 47. And consider now with your self how well and soundlie you have defended your Churches estate How your doctrine and constitution erreth fundamentally I have declared before Pag. 22. 114. 147. But now though you have no list to meddle with your Churches doctrine yet let vs see in your next Reply if your list will be to deale with your owne Your owne I say which I had from your self and take to be private to your self I had it from you in a Conference which passed “ between you and me April 3. 1597 in the presence of divers that can witnesse it Yet for more certainty and better remembrance I desired and obteined of you to write it downe your self So you gave it me then vnder your hand in writing which I have with me yet to shew Thus it is word for word A power borrowed from Antichrist to excommunicate may externally be committed vnto a people vsed by them who have power to excommunitate from Christ Henry Iacob When you had thus set it downe I desired your proof of it from the Scriptures But none could be had I could not obteine that at your hands Therevpon I tooke the paper and wrote vnderneath your assertion thus This is against the Scriptures 1 Cor. 5.4.5 compared with 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 Ezech. 43.8 Mat. 18.17.18.19.20 1 King 18.21 Fran Iohnson It is a good while Mr Iacob synce this passed between vs and like that you have had leysure ynough to consider of it all this tyme. Therefore in your next I hope you will have some list to meddle with this doctrine of your owne though you have none at all for your Churches Yet for the doctrines of your Church also because I am fallen into the mention of them againe let me put you in mynd of two things mo Mat. 13.24 c. The first is towching the parable of the tares spoken of before Pa. 158. of which because it is straungelie and daylie perverted among you for the maintenance of your confused and wicked estate therefore will I here in particular adde a word or two more besides that which I annexed before for the further explication of this point and conuiction of your error As first that you do consider with your selves if with this parable agree not also the Apostles doctrine where he calleth the Church the house of God and saith that in this house are not onelie vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earth and that as some of them be for honor so some be also to dishonor from which therefore if anie purge himself he shal be a vessel vnto honor sanctifyed and meet for the Lord and prepared to every good work 1 Tim 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2.16.17.18.19.20.21 3.5 Next that howsoever the parable be vnderstood by anie whether of 1 the generall estate of the Church from the beginning of the world to the end thereof how Sathan alway hath his tares his wicked ones sometymes more open sometymes more secret even as God alway hath his righteous children and servants vntill the day of that finall and everlasting separacion Mat. 13.35.40 2 Or the particular estate of the Church in the tyme of Antichrists apostasy wrought by Sathan vntill the discovery and full abolition thereof 2 Thes 2 3.-14 3 Or the Churches continuall being and cōversing in the world with the children of the wicked Which they must needs do or els they must go out of the world as the Apostle affirmeth 1 Cor. 5.9.10 Howsoever I say the parable be vnderstood whether of these or any the like yet doth it no way make for the receiving or reteining of the knowen wicked whosoever they be in the body of the Church The scope of the parable by these interpretations also leading to no such thing but onelie to comfort and instruct the godlie how to carry themselves with patience and wisdome in such estate of things in the world And the Apostle whose doctrine doubtles is not contrarie to Christs teacheth expressely in that place to the Corinthians and the other mentioned before both that the Church is a distinct body separated from the world not partaking in their evill wayes and that if anie of the Church will not so walk but commit iniquity and repent not that then they be so far from being suffred to grow or remaine any longer in the Church as they be forthwith cast out of it and delivered vnto Sathan the Prince of the world and children of disobedience even the Enemy that soweth the tares here spoken of And thus also was the Apostles practise For both which that is both his doctrine and practise herein see these Scriptures 1 Cor. 5. chap. 2 Cor. 2 6-11 6 14.-17 Act. 19.9 Ro. 16.17 Ephes 2.1.2 Gal. 5.12 2 Thes 3.6.14 1 Tim. 1.20 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2 16-21 3.5 4.14.15 Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.38.39 To conclude then albeit that such having crept into the Church do both before and after their excommunication as do also the other of the world who never received the faith offend and trouble the Church and children of the kingdome yea and do often flourish also in outward
prosperitie in the world yet the godly notwithstanding must learne neither to fret at them nor to faint in themselues but alway to walk faithfullie in the truth and to waite patientlie on the Lord looking for the great harvest of the world At which tyme God will for ever free his people from them all both casting the wicked into a furnace of vnquenchable fyer and making the righteous to shine as the sunne in the kingdome of their Father Mat. 13 37-43 compared with ver 47-50 Rev. 2 20.-26 7 14-17 10.7 11 15-19 14 14-20 17-22 chap. and with the other Scriptures noted before Pag. 158. 159. 173. The second is that besides the false doctrines mentioned before Pag. 157. 158. 159. 160. your Church hath also manie mo Some whereof I have noted in * another Treatise A treatise of the Minist of Engl. pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. to which I refer you for them So as if your list and leysure will serve in your next Reply you may let vs have your defence of them also Or els provide Mr Iacob that you chaunge the Title of your book and call it not anie longer A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND MINISTERY OF ENGLAND Now to proceed there followeth next the comparison between you and the Iewes from whom Paul separated Act. 19.9 Act. 19. To which you can not replie a word to anie one thing I aunswered Onelie you bring some new exceptions but not anie of them all worth a rush You might aswell except that Paul was an Apostle and a Iew we not that the people he dealt withall were in Asia you in Europe they at Ephesus you at London c. Such pretences as they are verie common among you so are they most absurd and frivolous not worthy the hearing or anie refutation at all Onelie note that the very Papists themselves may likewise alledge against anie that witnes the truth vnto them yea and do they not dailie thus pretend as you do viz that they be infinitely many mo then Paul had there to do withall 2. That Paul was better able to convince them c. then any such are the whole Popish Church 3. That there be many learned among them which have many probable and seeming reasons c. Where you say there be some of you that have published some reasons for the Prelacy against vs and are vnanswered it is most false Name but one Reason if you can to which we have not given aunswer to the stopping of all your mouths But in deed Mr Iacob you and your fellowes have let the * the Prelates and their proctours insult over you Bancroft Bilson Sutcliff c. with book vpon book and yet aunswer not a word You that ere while cryed out so earnestlie against dumbe dogs are now become dumbe your selves not moving the tounge against anie that writeth for the Hierarchy and leitourgy of Antichrist retained among you But to leave this to your selves to be better mynded hereafter tell me now if it were anie thing to the purpose though that you say here were true By your owne confession the Reasons which are published against vs are but probable and seeming not true and vndoubted And this also seeming so but to you not to vs. What matter then though they were never aunswered by vs Where you aske What if these speak evill of that which we hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme We aske againe Do not the Papists also say so vnto you Yea and did not the Iewes think you say so vnto Paul Why then are you so partiall against vs But for vs it skils not what you or they think of our cause vnles you speak according to the Law and testimony of God which is far from you Let the Reader also note here the maner of your speach You say that which we hold for truth they hold to be errors schisme They say you as speaking of others not of your self You belike do not so hold it as they do but are perswaded it is truth and not error Why then do you not obey and practise it Why are you become our ennemy for bearing witnes vnto it Why are you so partiall against vs in it Towching the estate of the Iewes Church I shewed three reasons why the Apostles neither did nor might wholy separate from them at first Against which you are not able to open your mouth Pag. 161. Petitio principii whereof you speak is the summe of all your Replies Shew otherwise if you can Do you not everie where beg and no where prove that you are separated from the world set in the way of Christ free from the defection of Antichrist c. So your self are guiltie of that wherewith you charge me falslie all that you say being nothing els but to beg the question and deny the Conclusion As for your short writing about the cōparisō of your Ministery with Mariage I did answer it * above three yeares since But you have not yet replied againe neither I think will in hast In the yeare 1596. When you first acquainted me with the purpose of publishing these things you know besides other things then spoken of I did in particular desier you to publish that aunswer of myne with the rest Therefore you have done me the greater wrong both in leaving it vnprinted and much more in giving out that I have not aunswered you these whole three yeares together and vpward But I perceive you will have your book sutable one part with another and therefore you will end as you ‡ began that is Pag. 5. with lies and vntruths Of that which you annexe of the Iewes Church in Christs tyme and after and of separation from them and communion with them I have alreadie spoken sufficientlie Pag. 161. Neither can you with anie Reason denie or stand against anie thing I have there said as I noted before Tell vs yet I pray you when and how that full experience of obstinate and malitious resistance of the truth whereof you speak may be had and discerned in anie either Ministers or people For your selves you cannot deny but this is your case that you resist and refuse the truth many times and sundrie wayes witnessed vnto you that you rayle and speake evill both of it and of vs that professe it that you persist in the errors and defection of Antichrist that you bereave vs of our lives libertie goods countrie c. And all these because we will not runne with you to the same excesse of impietie Now seing this is the case as your self I think will not denie of your Prelates and manie other of your Priests and people and seing all the rest of you stand with them in one bodie and estate of a Church cleaving vnto them in the same way worship Ministerie c. therefore even in this behalfe can we not possiblie separate from some of you but we must needs
tyme and after as †Beza in Acts 15.20 some thinke even till their Temple and Citie were destroyed though they did personally hate and persecute Christ Such also was the sinne of the auncient declyning Bishops Cyprian Epiphanius Augustine Chrisostome Leo of Rome c. No lesse was in ours of late Cranmer Ridly Hooper c. in King Edwards dayes and no greater is now in ours presently especially towching our Churches Ministers too generally If you say we are all convicted now and sinne against our owne consciences as they did not in those tymes It is vtterly false and a palpable vntruth Whosoever knoweth any thing in our Church estate generally must needs see it that this poinct towching the Hyerarchy is not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one many holding and not of the simplest this present governement to be th' only true and right kinde but all men almost to be indifferent and lawfull very few indeed and scarce to be found that see it to be meerly nought or as you terme it wicked intolerable And in king Edwards tyme whosoever considereth shall finde H. Iâ— that the godly learned Protestans then were not vtterly ignorant of this point of reformation and yet sinned not against their conscience in bearing with the tymes neither were abolished from Christ And surelie towching the Iewes they were all generally more convicted then that Iesus vvas the Christ then vve are now that the Prelacy is of Antichrist yet they remayned a Church still because generally indeed they vvere not plainly conuicted Thus then this our sinne is * see the 2. sortes of fundamentall sinnes in the 2. Reply to your yâ—â—â—eason before Pag. 142 Fr. Io. See the aunswer thereto in the same treatise Pag 144.147 no way fundamentall it destroyeth not faith Christianity in our vvhole assemblies Therefore they remaine Christian people still as I affirmed not all godles prophane as you vncharitably speak O beware of rash hasty iudging even of one brother Rom. 14.3.4.13 how much more of such anb so many whole assemblies professing Christ in England Woe be vnto him which curseth where God curseth not Num. 23.8 As also indeed that blesseth where God blesseth not We desire you not to blesse vs in our evill but we vvarne you not to curse vs in our good vvhich indeed turneth vs not to any furtherance but to a great hinderance and stumbling block stopping vs from that syncerity vvhich els vve should dravve nearer vnto Blessed is he that iudgeth vvisely that is vvithout affection and partialitie even of him that is despised Better it is and more Christianlike even to offend in too much compassion and patience especially tovvardes so many hundreth thousands by vvhom vve knovv nought saue good in this poinct then to offend in too much rigor and severity and vniust anger Mat. 5.22 Hovvbeit this vvere not indeed to offend as hath ben above shevved And briefly in twoo vvords thus I conclude it farther that That faith and religion taught in the booke of Articles published 1562. maketh the people that beleeve and obey the same true Christians such as so living dying may be saved But our Church doeth so holde that faith Therefore they are true Christians The Proposition onely is doubted I had thought none so desperate as to deny it but lately I vnderstand you haue denyed it Hovvbeit for ansvver I referre you partly to that vvhich here hath bene said before especiallie to that vvhich is replyed to your Answer in the former Treatise which being well weighed I doubt not but all indifferent Christian mindes will acknowledge our publique Church assemblies in England to be true Christians Fran. Iohnson his Aunsvver YOu have now ten tymes reproched me and are not ashamed Whatsoever your self or others do think of your Churches estate God forbid that I should eyther iustify it or take away myne owne innocency in witnessing the truth against it Heare therefore and I will aunswer you once againe I will open my mouth for the truth against him that pleadeth for Baal The strength of the Reason standeth not as you ignorantlie suppose in the truth or falshood of the particulars you mention but in this that it is not so vvith choyse of Ministers in the Church as it is vvith choyse of parties in mariage For Infidels Idolaters godles persons c. may in that estate marry togeather but they are not in that estate capable of choosing and ioyning to a true Minister And therefore your Comparison doth not hold Yet the particulars do all of them availe much against you whatsoever you pretend to the contrary The first is directlie to the question For although now having seen my aunswer you speak of Christian people yet your comparison which was given me to aunswer spake at first of ignorant persons and those also such as might marry togeather Now you cannot deny but ignorant persons be they never so prophane and godles may marry one with another Yet have they not power in such case to chuse a Minister It is your self then that keep not the point but chop and chaunge the termes of your Argument as you think may best fit your turne And yet all this chaunging of your hew will avayle you nothing at all vnles you could prove 1. That your people in that Church-constitution are true Christians 2. That your Ministers so made and received are true Pastors But neither of these can you do For the first let the Reader see the former treatise where this point is purposelie handled And mynd here that your self confesse some of your Assemblies are all and wholy prophane godles persons Of which you say you speak not Yet tell vs whether you think such Assemblies be true Churches such people true Christians and their Ministers hauing like ordering of the Prelates and acceptance of the people true Pastors or not For the latter this is the treatise and place where you should prove it if you could But behold you do nothing lesse In the Comparison Pag 186. Nay even here you yeeld that your calling received from the Prelates is vnlawfull Yet this is the onelie maner of calling that your Church constitution appointeth That which you speak of your Assemlies not being all and wholy profane and godles persons is nothing to the purpose You might easilie have seen if you had mynded the words of my Reason that I sayd expresselie your Assemblies consist of all sorts of people that is some better some worse Yet seing the best among you remaine in confusion with the worst and all of you in bondage to Antichrist that even for this cause also you can not in that estate be deemed true Churches having power to chuse such Officers as Christ hath appointed for his Church And where you say whole companyes of Christians are not by such commixtures made vnholy prophane and godles it is wholy from the questioÌ„ The point is not
into prison and so deteined vnto death or otherwise evill intreated as both your prisons and so me yet alive are able to testify Synce which tyme your persecution hath increased far more even vnto exile and death vpon such as refuse to joine to your Hierarchy worship and other abominations of Antichrist by your Law then established How absurd then is it to pretend for your estate the reformations of Hezekiah Manasseh Iosiah c. Of which the Scripture testifyes that God gave the people one heart to do the cōmaundement of the King and of the Rulers according to the word of the Lord. 2 Chron. 30.12 And who knoweth not that these Kings did both abolish the false worship and Ministery which before tyme had ben in their Kingdomes and did in stead thereof establish that true worship and Ministery which God by Moses had ordeined 2 King 18.6 23.25 2 Chron. 29. 30. 31. 33. 34. 35. chap. Besides that those Churches consisted of people separated frō the world and willinglie submitting thēselves to the Lord as these Scriptures also do testify 2 Chron. 15.8.9.12 30.11.12 2 King 23.2.3 with Exod. 19 5-8 Lev. 20.24.26 Howsoever then being set in the way of God and walking therein they had their blemishes and imperfections yea and evill men arising among them as the best Churches on earth are alway subiect to have yet this is nothing eyther for such cōmaundemēt of Rulers as is not according to the word of God or for your Churches estate which from the beginning to this day neyther are separated from the world nor have the true Ministery and worship appointed by Christ but stand both in confusion with the most prophane and in subiection to the Hierarchy and worship of the man of sinne Otherwise the ten Tribes of Israell might justify their defection and the Romish Babylon her filthyest apostasy by such pretences For your people at the beginning of her Majestyes raigne you alledge 1. that they did not all generally want all knowledge and all faith I do willinglie graunt it But doth it therefore follow that your Assemblyes are true Churches rightlie gathered according to the ordinance of Christ Then by the same reason conclude the publik Assemblyes heretofore in Q. Maryes tyme and now in Rome and the rest of Italy Spayne Fraunce c. to be true Churches right lie gathered because their people neyther did nor do all generally want all knowledge and all faith But your people had then had in many places the word taught books scattered much conference daily consultations and disputations and the blood of Martyrs preaching vnto them aloud lately before All these being grāted yet they are so far from excusing your sinnes as even therefore it is far the greater inasmuch as by this it should seem you knew better and yet neyther did it then neyther do it yet vnto this day And so you are in the sinne and vnder the judgement spoken of in these Scriptures Iam. 4.17 Tit. 1.16 Ier. 6.16 Luk. 12.47.48 Let him that readeth mynd it well And this too that you speak not of the whole Land and all your Churches but onely of some places and persons such as had the books conference and disputations you speak of Pag. 3.6 Whereas your * former defence speaketh of your Churches as they are established by Law and therefore of them all 2. Next you alledge that there was more then half a yeare viz. “ from November to Midsomer for the people to heare learne and consider before the commandement came so that it was not suddayne neyther can be counted compulsion c. But know you not Mr Iacob 1. That it neyther was neyther could possibly be as you pretend that the people in that tyme throughout the Land should be taught Yet at Midsomer were all constrayned to receiv it whether they did so beleev or not 2. That this tyme was appointed not for the peoples instruction that so vpon konwledge they might do what was enjoyned but that in this tyme the Statute being knowen throughout the Land they should then do as was appointed howsoever they were perswaded thereof in themselves This I prove 1. Because the Priests and people that would were suffred by Law all that halfe yeares space to say and heare Masse as before Which I trow you will not say was to heare learne and consider as here you alledge 2. Because when Midsomer came they were bound to receyv and so did what was published for their faith worship Ministery c. howsoever eyther themselves were perswaded or the things imposed did agree or disagree with the word of God But now I would know what you will say to this that all your former pleading was from your Articles agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. and here you make your plea from your peoples estate in the yeare 1558. for then began her Majestyes reygne which I pray God long to continew and prosper If your professiō of those Articles made you now true Churches which before you were not how were your Assemblyes then rightly gathered so many yeares before as here you pretend Or if you were not true constituted Churches at that Midsomer you speak of here how could those Articles effect it being afterward agreed vpon not by your Churches See the title of those Art but by your Priests neyther by all of them but onelie by your Archbishops and Bishops and such other of your Clergy as were with them in the Convocation holden at London in the yeare 1562. If to this last point you say this agreement of your Prelates and Clergy was then published through the Land and so you count it as the agreement and ordinance of your whole Church then must you graunt withall that the Antichristian Canons Iniunctions Articles Advertissements c. agreed vpō at the same and like Convocations and likewise published are also the agreement and ordinance of your whole Church And so your Churches estate and profession is to be considered not by those Articles onelie of 1562. but by the rest likewise agreed vpō among you from tyme to tyme. Thus all your defence is found to be full of deceit and contradictiō every where But it may be in your next wee shall know your mynd better In the meane tyme we answer what you desier to know of vs viz That we condemne not reformation commaunded compelled by the Magistrate but do vnfeynedlie desier that God would put into the heart of her Maiesty and all other Princes within their Dominions to cōmaund and cōpell a reformation according to the word of the Lord As it is expressely noted that Hezekiah and other the good Kings of Iudah did 2 Chron. 30.12 2 King 18.6 23.25 2 Chron. 17.3.4.5.6 We acknowledge with thanks to God and her Maiesty that out of her Highnes Dominions there be alreadie abolished manie of the abominations of the Romish Babylon And we pray God that forasmuch as many of
them be yet remayning in your worship Hierarchy confusion Canons Licences Dispensations Rev. 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Excommunications c. with ♣ which no man may have spirituall communion vnder payne of eternall wrath that if it be the will of God her Highnes may be his instrument to suppresse and abolish these also and to establish the whole truth of God according to his word And further that she may take to her owne Civill vses the Lordships and possessions of the Prelates and other Clergy as God hath foretold and appointed should be done with them Rev. 17.16 19.17.18 And as King Henry the eight her Maiestyes Father of famous memory did with the Abbats Monks Fryers Nunnes and with their possessions and revennewes Which happy worke by what Princes soever it be done as certaynly will come to passe for the Lord of hostes hath spoken it it will greatlie redound to the glory of God the honour of themselves the free passage of the Gospell the peace of the Church and benefit of the whole Cōmon wealth The Lord therefore hasten and accōplish it Yea true and strong is the Lord who hath spoken and will performe it Rev. 17. 18. 19. chap. This is our mynd which you desier to know concerning reformatiō commaunded and compelled by the Magistrate Where note withall that it is the work of God onelie to adde to his Church such as he will save And therefore that it is not in the power of Princes or anie Man whatsoever to perswade the conscience and make members of the Church but that this must be left to God alone who onelie can do it Act. 2.47 11.21 Gen. 9.27 1 Cor. 12.13 14.24.25 Zach. 8.23 Ier. 32.38.39.40 Princes may and ought within their Dominions to abolish all false worship and all false Ministeryes whatsoever and to establish the true worship and Ministery appointed by God in his word commaunding and compelling their subiects to come vnto and practise no other but this Yet must they leave it vnto God to perswade the conscience and to adde to his Church from tyme to tyme such as shal be saved But with you in these things you know it is quite contrary Thus then neyther the examples of the aforesayd Kings of Iudah are in your case fitlie alledged neyther is it of anie waight if all your people and Assemblies in the Land willinglie openly advisedly submitted to whatsoever was proclaymed at the beginning of her Highnes reygne Vnles you could prove that Religion worship Ministery c. then proclaymed and still vsed to be by God prescribed in his word Which still you take for graunted when it is the very thing which we denie and you should proue if possibly you could And what if here I should put you in mynd how you might more fitlie alledge for your case the keeping of the Statutes of Omry and the like Micah 6.16 But I will leave this for your next Reply And then also tell vs what truth it is you speak of that was proclaymed at the beginning of her Maiestyes raygne whereof the people had such aduizement notice as you pretend from November 17. to Midsomer following For the book of Articles * heretofore so much pressed by your self Pag. 3. c was so far frō being proclaymed then as it was not agreed vpon till the yeare 1562. Which was at least fower or five yeares after the tyme you speak of here Now to proceed you tell vs that no open professed Papists Atheists nor other Hereticks were then receyved into your communion c. But how can we beleev you when D. Whitgift your Archprelate of Canterbury a man of as great reckning and of more experience in your Church then Mr Iacob tels vs the cleane contrary yea and prints it too even then when he writeth in defence of your present estate viz †Whitg book Pag. 176. 178 639. 643. that now the Church is full of Papists Atheists Drunkerds whoremongers c. Even the Prelates themselves I perceive do in some things deale more syncerelie then you Mr Iacob and are nothing so shameles Yet I know that some others of your coat which seek reformation deale herein as plainelie as the Prelates and far more faithfullie then you For example they confesse and publish that you have ‡ Sermon on Rom. 12. swarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erroneous and hereticall Sectaryes the Family of love and such like Another spareth not to avouch more particularly ♣ State of the Church of England between Diot Tert. c. that some Doctors of the Arches be the same men they were in Queen Maryes tyme. Others also speaking of your Ecclesiasticall courts write thus ‡ Ad◠to the Parliament God deliver all Christians out of this Antichristian tyranny where the Iudges Advocates and Proctors for the most part are Papists c. Thus your owne men of all sorts beare witnes against you But to let their testimony alone who knoweth not that the whole Land being polluted with most Popish and wicked Idolatry in Q. Maryes dayes they were all straightway after without repentance or the word preached going before received into the body of your Church and constreyned to become members thereof Who with their seed vnto this day do so remayne and are commonlie called the Church of England Neither will that clause of open professed be anie starting whole for you as it may be you dreame All know well ynough it is no matter how open and professed they be so as they will be conformable to come to Church once a moneth and heare your Divine service book Did Mr W. Smith your great acquaintance never tell you Mr Wroth Iustice. how ‡ one of the Cōmissioners themselves when he was called before them said vnto him Come to Church and be a Divell if thou wilt That which you say of ignorant men received in a generall reformation if you meane of some having far lesse knowledge then others being also vnable eyther well to expresse their owne mynd or to defend the truth against an adversary I deny it not Otherwise know that all who are received members of the Church being of yeares are to be such as in their measure lesse or more have learned Christ and do willinglie submit to his Gospell having heard and knowen the grace of God therein Ephes 4.7.20.21 2 Cor. 9.13 Col. 1.5.6 Act. 2.41 17.3.4 Esa 44.5 Zac. 8.20.21.22.23 And so questionles it was in the time of Hezechiah c. For which see these Scriptures 2 Chron. 29.31 30.2.3.4.11.12.13 2 King 23.2.3 2 Chron. 15.15 Besides that the Iewes did long before Hezekiahs time vpō knowledge enter covenant with the Lord to have him to be their God and they to be his people Exod. 19.7.8 Deut. 29.10.11.12.13 For the notorious dissolute and wicked you plead that some were reclaymed all vndertook another professiō and a new appearāce of Christianity c. Which how false
later have seen before their eyes the mischief that followed vpō that declining which the other of former time neither did nor could Adde herevnto the great vnlikenes when they are compared together in their Offices Entrance Titles prerogatives Courts Canons Iurisdiction and other procedings And tell me why you left out Cyprian in your printed Book whō you named in your written copy for which cause I have now also noted his Name with the rest Is it so that you see alreadie how he is against you Assure your self Mr Iacob that so will the rest also be found lesse or more I alway except the Prelates of Rome whensoever due triall and comparison is made Which I neither need nor purpose here to stand vpon seing these things are purposely hādled and alreadie published by others well knowen and approved also of your selves as by Mr Beza against Saravia T. C. his 1. and 2. Reply The Demonstration c. I omit also that yours are become persecuters whereas the other were persecuted Therefore your sinne is far the greater And many other things I might alledge but it sufficeth vs and hereon we rest that your Prelacy and other Ministery Worship c. are none of Christs ordinances appointed in his word If you be other wise mynded prove it by the book of God Ioh. 17.17 Psa 119.105 Esa 8.20 You know that †it alone is the word of truth and ought to be vnto all the lāterne of our feet Hence forth therefore speak according to that word and seek not by the lesse sinnes of others to hide and nourish your owne far greater Otherwise remember and applie to your selves the judgement that is written Exod. 20.5 Ps 129.21 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 22 18.19 And note these things withall 1. First That here you speak of such as live and dy in your errors ignorantly Now what defence is this for your self Mr Iacob and for all the rest of your Church throughout the Land who do not onelie know these errors but have also taught professed and witnessed against them heretofore 2. Secondly that here you are glad to vse the same pretences as rusty weapons against the truth which were sometymes vsed by D. Whitgift and the Papists for defence of the Prelacy and found to be of no force at all 3. Thirdly that whatsoever you speak here in excuse of your conviction may be likewise alledged by the Papists and other Hereticks for defence of them selves viz that they are not all cōvicted sinne against their cōscience also that such and such points are not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one among them that many of them and not of the simplest hold their way to be the onely true and right course and almost all of them to be indifferent and lawfull very few and scarce any that see it to be meerly wicked and intolerable Yet these are the reasons and armour of proof you bring for defence of your Hierarchie and Church-estate And what should I speak of your manifold contradictions fearfull clauses notable vntruthes c. Your cōtradictions as when you graunt here Pag. 28. 61 This is your generall sinne and yet said before you held these to be Christs ordinances Your pretended excuse that you speak some things in your owne person some things in your Churches I have shewed before to be vayne and against your self Pag. 55. 56. 72. Another contradiction in that you professe the auncyent Bishops and yours have declyned viz from the truth and way of Christ or els tell vs in your next from what and yet plead as if your Church generally were eyther ignorant hereof or held your present governement to be the onely true and right kind or at least to be indifferent and lawfull c. For how I pray you can these stand together If you say your self know thus much but as for any others that know it they are very few and searse to be found these I take it are your owne words this is but a vaine conceit of your self and such as is still accompanied with folly There are no doubt a thousand to you who are but one that know these things aswell or better a great deale Yea I know manie of your Church my self who have taught and writtē far more soundly and godly of them then ever Mr Iacob did And if these had all held their peace yet your Book of common prayer as grosse as it is knoweth thus much ‡ In the Commination that in the Primitive Church there was a godly disclpline which it saith is much to be wished that it might be restored agayne The particular there mentioned I stand not vpon I note it onelie for this that you may see even by that book received among you generally how your Church neither is so ignorant of the estate of things in former tymes as you pretend neither thinketh your present government to be the onelie true kind c. Not to speak of your so manie and so publik suites to the Parliament to have it removed as being vnlawfull and Antichristian Neither of the many books printed with Priviledge avowching as much A third contradiction till you cleare it better note in this also that you acknowledge they in K. Edw. tyme were godly learned and yet insinuate withall as if they were litle better then tyme-servers Your fearfull clauses importing partlie a yeelding of the cause partly a seeking of starting holes and excuses for your sinne As when you say 1. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversity of sinnes 2. All sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ 3. This sinne of outward Church-orders is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience 4. There are sinnes wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved 5. No greater is now in our Bishops presently especially towching our Churches and Ministers too generally 6. If you say we are all convicted now it is false 7. The godly learned Protestants in King Edwards tyme were not vtterly ignorant of this poynt of reformation 8. The Iewes were not generally plainely convicted 9. Our Assemblyes are not all godles and profane Our sinne destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole Assemblyes c. As if your self thought it did in some Your notable vntruths also are many as when you alledge Mr Beza vpō Act. 15.20 as if he spake of such Iewes as did personally hate and persecute Christ where as he speaketh expressely of such as beleved in Christ but were withall zealous of the Law being not yet perswaded of the abolishment thereof Agayne when from him you would teach that they which did personally hate and persecute Christ yet were the true Church vntill the Temple and City were destroyed yea and saved though they repented it not Which is contrarie to these and many the like Scriptures Act. 2.40.47 and 13.45.46.50.51 and 19.8.9 1. Thes
to the first accusation there You reason against people not capable of a Pastor And we speake of true Christians which are alwayes capable You do ill therfore in comparing this action to mariage betwene brother and sister who indeed can not marry Happely you may likelyer compare it to a couple that have lived both of them wantonly Afterwards they marrie togeather and this marriage it selfe they vse not soberly nor temperatly Howbeit for all this I professe these two are truly man and wife notwithstanding Now even so our Churches and Ministers c. Fr. Ioh. his Answer KNowing the question Mr Iacob you might well see if you were not blynd that this is directly vnto it And so in deed it is like the first Reason that is it sheweth the folly of your Comparison and is such as you can not aunswer True it is that we speak of people not capable of a Pastor that is of yours in your Church-constitution And if you speak as you say you do of true Christians which are alwayes capable then speak you not of your people or Assemblyes in your estate And so it is your self that fâ—â—ht with your shadow and towch not the question but still presume that which you should prove viz that standing in Antichristian bondage to the Prelates and their procedings yet notwithstanding you are by the word of God to be judged true Christians having the liberty and power given by Christ to his Church whereof he is the head Till you prove this we must needs think that the comparing of your chusing a Minister in your estate to a brother and sister or such like that can not lawfully marry togeather c. is good and pertinent Your owne comparing of it to a couple that have lived wantonly and afterwards marry together yet vse not their mariage soberly c. descryeth that your self see the wicked and vnlawfull estate of your Ministers and people as now they stand howsoever you labour to hide and excuse it as much as you can And besides if you would describe your estate as it is in deed you should compare it to such as both had and do still live wantonlie and wickedly in adultery and vncleannes whom God will judge Let all such therefore among you as feare God delay no longer but with speed forsake your adulterous wayes and turne vnto the Lord that by his grace you may be “ maryed to him in righteousnes and judgement in mercie and compassion Hos 2 19.2â— and not still run a whoring after your owne inventions and abominations of the man of sinne whom the Lord will destroy Rev. 17 1-6 2 Thes 2.3.4.8 Numb 15.39.40 Ier. 4.18 Chap. 6. The fift Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe Priests joyning of the parties doth not make them Man and wife at all but onely the parties mutuall consent But contrarily in the present ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ of England the Prelats ordinatioÌ„ maketh the Minister and not the peoples choyse at all H. Iacob his Reply THe second Proposition we here flatly deny It is answered in our last words against the 2. Reason Fr. Ioh. his Answer YOu have an hard forehead Mr Iacob that can flatly deny so cleare a truth But for proof thereof besides your Churches-constitution I cite your books of Articles CanoÌ„s IniunctioÌ„s Statutes togeather with the consent of your whole Church and your book of ordering Priests and Deacons c. All which are so many proofs of the second Proposition and witnesses of the truth which you shame not to deny Is it not your Churches expresse Law that no other be receyved for Ministers but such as are made Priests or Deacons by the Prelates Yea that every one must to this end have his Letters of Orders vnder the Prelates hand and seale that ordeined him Can anie among you though he have the consent of all your people be Parson or Vicar or as you speak one of your Pastors not having the Prelates ordination and institution On the contrarie having these of the Prelate is it not sufficient for him though all your people stand against him Yea must not all the people whether they will or not receive and joyne vnto his Ministery being by the Prelate so ordeined and instituted as aforesaid The truth hereof is so well knowen and yll practised through the whole land as it is straunge any man should have the face to deny it But what wil not Mr Iacob deny when he knoweth not what to aunswer and yet hath not an heart to yeeld to the truth It must needs be a weak and bad cause that can not otherwise be mainteined then by such impudent denyals Your Aunswer to the second Reason before is there taken away and proved to be both against your self and against the Law and constitution of your Church Mynd it better next tyme. Chap. 7. The Sixt Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF a woman consent to a man that is another womans husband they are not therefore Man and wife So if a people consent to a false Minister they are not therefore true Church and Minister H. Iacob his Reply THis is answered as before in the Fourth Reason It carrieth some likelyhood indeed and some reason against Pluralities but nothing any further Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer NEyther the fourth Reason nor this nor any other of them are yet answered Let others judge And now your self are driven to confesse that this hath both likelyhood and reason against your Pluralityes Which is in deed to yeeld vnto it For tell me if your Pluralitie-men have not as well as the rest among you both the some calling by the Prelates which your Church appointeth and like acceptance of your people who joyne vnto them and mainteine them as you alledged before Pag. 208. The ReasoÌ„ then hath waight not onely against your pluralists but against all your other Ministers too seing they have all of them one and the same false Ministery received from the Prelates and executed vnder them Vnto which you may adde that the Ministery of all among you is such as Christ never set in his Church whether you look at your Offices from the hyest Prelate to the lowest Priest or at your Entrance according to your Churches Canons and Book of ordinatioÌ„ or at your Ministration by your Book of common praier and other your Canons and Injunctions or finally at your maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. When you have well mynded these things you shall find this Argument reach a great deale further then to Pluralityes even to all the Ministers of your Church in your estate Make a tryal search the Testament of Christ throughout and if you can shew it to be otherwise If not give glorie to God and yeeld to the truth Chap. 8. The Seuenth Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson AS when a man and woman have consented each to other if the man do
afterwards give his body to another and so commit adultery Then is the marriage-knot broken So if after a people have chosen a man to be their Minister hee give himself to another and a false Ministery and so commit spirituall whoredome Then is the former knot also broken H. Iacob his Reply THe taking of orders from a Prelate after consent given to a Minister by a people is not like adultery in mariage especially where both Pastor and people are simply ignorant of that error Therefore that disanulleth not as adultery doth the wedlok So this Reason is much like to the last before and the answer not vnlike to that of the Fourth Reason likewise For That which at the First maketh not vncapable That same afterwards doeth not dissolue But this error maketh not Christians vncapable at the first as thero is shewed and in the Third chieflie Therefore neither can it dissolue afterwards the Covenant betweene the Pastor and the people Fr. Ioh. his Answer YEs Mr Iacob albeit your peoples consent were the choyse of a true Church yet such taking of the Prelates Orders were like adultery How much more in your case who have drunke so deep of the cup of Babels fornications Yet you say these two are not alike but your saying you proue not at all I do still affirme there is likeliehood between them and thus I prove it To receive the Ministerie of Antichrist is to commit spirituall whoredome For Antichrists Ministerie is part of the Whores abominations spoken of Rev. 17.4.5 But the taking of Orders from a Prelate is to receive the Ministery of Antichrist Witnes your Book of ordination Admâ—â— to the parliam compared with the Popes Pontificall Wherein your selves confesse he sheweth himself to be Antichrist most livelie Witnes also the nature of your Orders and Prelacy compared with the ordinance and Ministery of Christ Therefore the taking of Orders from a Prelate is to commit spirituall Whoredome Now that there is likelyhood and fit Comparison between corporall and spirituall Whoredome the Scripture doth every where teach and your self Mr. Iacob I think will not be so sencelesse as to deny it Even here you confesse that your taking of Orders from a Prelate is an error Neither will the ignorance you pretend help the matter For although it cannot well be thought that after so open and manifold declaration of the truth as you have had you should still be ignorant thereof yet if it were so your ignorance you know will not warrant your action nor justifie your sinne Ignorance in deed causeth a sinne to be lesse but not to be none at all Suppose that two ignorant persons not knowing or at least pretending not to know adultery to be vnlawfull should commit that folly togeather Were their action therefore not to be deemed adulterie Yet thus you reason And your answer besides importeth some yeelding to the similitude as towching them among you which know the truth Let all such therefore especially weigh with them selves in what wofull estate they remaine wittinglie even such as is spiritual whoredome against the Lord. So this Reason in deed is like to the last before that is direct and of waight against you and your aunswer vnto it not vnlike to that of the Fourth Reason and the rest that is meerlie frivolous and to no purpose at all For this error as you call it that is your subjection to the Prelacy and abominations of Antichrist yet remaining in your Church maketh you in that estate eveÌ„ at the first vncapable of chusing a Pastor or of entring such Covenant as you speak of or of performing anie other action by the power and liberty which Christ hath given to his Church For what concord hath Christ with Antichrist Or how can the liberty of Christ and bondage of Antichrist stand together 2 Cor. 6.15 1 King 18.21 and the one not expell the other Or will you alway halt between two opinions and never make streight steps vnto your feet to turne them into the testimonies of the Lord Be not deceived God is not mocked Whatsoever a man soweth that shall he reap He that soweth to Antichrist shall with him reap corruption but he that soweth to Christ shall by him reap life everlasting 2. Thes 2.10.11.12 Rev. 14.9.10.11.12 Gal. 6.7.8 Ioh. 3.36 Heb. 5.9 Chap. 9. Of the clause annexed at the end of Mr Iacobs printed book which is thus H. Iacob THis last Treatise hath remayned in their hands these three yeares more vnanswered Fr. Iohnson THis is most false Mr Iacob For I did aunswer it my self “ above three yeares synce In the yeare 1596. And being then close prisoner I sent it away from me sheet by sheet as I did at the same time my aunswer also to the former Treatise to be copied out and conveied vnto you Since which time you have not given any Replie vnto it againe No not vnto this day So it is your self that have not answered me these three yeares and more Mynd therfore how greatly you have abused both me and your Reader But perhaps you will say my answer came not to your hands For so by this clause of yours it may seem to be If it were so as for myne owne part I know not whether it did or no yet of this I am sure that when you sent me word these things were to be published Moneth 5.10 and 30.159 8. I wrote to you “ twice desiring among other things this in particular that then you would with the rest publish also my answer to this Reply of yours So as by this you had knowledge if not before that it was answered Yea you know moreouer how I wrote vnto you at the same tyme that you had not replyed vnto me agayne synce I answered you and that if you wanted any of my answers or by any occasion had them not perfect I would help you to them if you sent me word c. And these Letters of myne you received In your Letters to me Mon. 5.27 and 6.20 1598. as your self “ certifyed me Which I have yet to shew vnder your owne hand Yet you have not onelie left my Answer to your Treatise vnprinted but you shame not besides to affirme contrary to your knowledge that it hath remayned in our hands these three yeares more vnanswered Think now with your self Mr Iacob what conscience or honesty there is in such dealing But it may be you had not so much care to deale well as to have the parts of your book agree together alike For as with vntruth and bad dealing you began and proceded in it hitherto so you do now also end it Principio medium medio ne discrepet imum Thus in deed all the parts of your book from beginning to ending are suteable one with another Yet such correspondence in your Book is small commendation to your self Better dealing would better become you save that seing you fight for Antichrist his Churches
and Ministery it is no vnmeet thing that you vse the weapons of Antichrist Which are chiefly two falsehood and violence Of the former whereof your book is full from end to end speaking lyes through hypocrisy And with the latter your Church which you would defend aboundeth as your violent courses against the truth will alway testify to your face howsoever you shame not to plead evē for this also For which see before Pag. 112.133.134 If you write agayne be better advised Rev. 14. 18. chap. Psal 84. Ier. 50. and 51. Chap. Or rather learne to lay your hand on your mouth and plead the cyuse of Antichrist no more But follow the Lambe whithersoever he goeth And give your self no rest vntill you appeare before God in Sion Forsake Babel Let Ierusalem come vp on your heart and help you to build the walles thereof though it be in a strait and troublous tyme. And this which I speak vnto you by the word of God I wish to be mynded of all that feare God and love the Lord Iesus He that hath eares to heare let him heare Math. 13.9 A Table of some particular things conteyned in this Book ANtichristian corruptions yet had in the Church of England Pag. 63. c. Antichrists of two sorts pag. 95. Of the Apocrypha books pag. 22. 60. The Chaldean and Spirituall Babylon compared together pag. 99. c. Of the Beasts mark Preface Section 3. Pag. 163. 189 Blasphemy in the professiō Ministratiō of the Church of Eng. p. 22. 60. 188. 189. Of the auncyent and late Bishops pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of the Name Brownists pag. 2. A true visible Church described pag. 14. 196. The true Church hath but one Lord-bishop the Lord Iesus Christ p. 163. 189. It is Christs ordinance that there be true offices of Ministery and a lawfull administration and to a faithfull people pag. 16. 19. 39. The Worship and Ministery of the Church of England is against the Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome of Christ pag. 33. c. Of the Church of England Pag. 1. 3. 11. 27. 122 126. 161. c. Her confusion pag. 16. 103. 122. 200. Conviction pag. 42. 53. 78. 108. 130. c. Book of Common prayer pag. 27. 33. 63. 86. 96. 120. c. Dispensatiōs and Licences Pag. 65. 73. False doctrines pag. 122. 157. c. Fundamentall errors pag. 22. 114. 147. Excommunication and Absolution Pag. 33. 65. Hierarchy and Ministery Pag. 2. 23. 27. 63. 120. 122. 188. c. Holy dayes pag. 33. 64. Idol-temples P. 65. 121. 126. Indifferent opinion of the Hierarchy pag. 94. 120. 121. Persecution pag. 66 108. 112. 133. 177. 178. 197. Profession pag. 21. 60. 120. 171. Speaking lyes in hypocrisy pag. 150. 151. Will-worship and superstition pag. 27. 33. 82. 86. 87. The faith of the Church of England abolisheth the Second commandement and perfection of the Scriptures pag. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth all outward governement of the Church to be vnwritren and vncertayne pag. 28. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth the inventions of Antichrist to be Christs ordinances if the Magistrate so please pag. 61. 69. 72. The Preaching Sacraments Prayer c. in the Church of Engl. appoynted by mens precepts pag. 82. 86 87. None can ioyne with any Chutch or Ministery of Engl. but they must needs partake with their Antichristian abominations pag. 88. 170. The estate of the Ministers and Church of Engl. compared with Corahs c. pag. 32. 53. 130. 138. Difference to be put between true Churches having corruptions and false Churches making show of Religion pag. 92. 133. 161. 195. Things verifyed of the members of a true Church may be applyed to a false Church and yet not iustify their estate pag. 83. Of the Ethiopian Churches pag. 94. Of the error of Christs descension into Hell pag. 115. 116. Of the Foundation in Christian Religion pag. 46. 51. Some dying in fundamentall errors yet saved pag. 44. 45. 545 Some holding no fundamentall errors yet condemned pag. 48. 146. The falsest Churches and greatest Hereticks hold much truth pag. 47. 104. 106. 113. 136. 137. The Heathens acknowledging and worshipping of the true God p. 123. 124. The Papists bring more show of Scripture for their grossest heresyes then Mr Iacob or any other do for the Hierarchy c. pag. 129. A notable false doctrine of Mr Iacobs wherein it seemeth he is alone p. 172. Three speciall things to be noted in Mr Iacobs Replyes pag. 9. How Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded pag. 12. Popish shifts vsed by Mr Iacob pag. 26. 30. 32. 128. 136. c. Idolatry and false worship of two sorts pag. 67. 80. Visible Idols in the Church and worship of England pag. 120. Of the Iewes Church Preface Section 4. 5. pag. 83. 84. 89. 195. 197. Of Imposition of hands pag. 208. 210. Of the forbidding of Mariage and Meats pag. 73. 129. 135. 137. 140. 143. 147. Of the Martyrs pag. 8. 29. 40. 44. 54. 67. 79. 182. How the Ministers of England are made ordered pag. 188. 189. The word and Sacraments administred and received in the Church of Engl. in and from a false Ministery pag. 16 64. The Oath ex officio pag. 63. Of such as live and dy Papists c. pag. 146 Of the word Prelate pag. 188. Seven Questions yet vnanswered pag. 164. Separation from the Church of England graunted in expresse words by them selves pag. 156. 157. 169. The Sacraments administred in the Church of England with many corruptions pag. 15. 17. 25. 33. 64. Of Sacramentall speaches pag. 117. 118. Of the Samaritans pag. 104. c. The Parable of the Tares pag. 158. 173. Testimonyes of the Prelates themselves against the Church of Engl. p. 16. 200. Testimonyes of the Reformists against it p. 16. 27. 39. 79. 86. 103. 129. 176. 200. Testimoyes of the Reformed Churches against it pag. 17. 176. Testimonyes of the Martyrs and of former tymes against it pag. 162. 163. 177. 180. 182. 183. The Testimonyes alledged out of Scripture for defence of the Church of England are also against it Preface Section 3. 4. 5. 6. pag. 51. 52. 195. Of Tithes and maintenance of the Ministery pag. 209. 210. The Word of God onely is to be our rule and light of our feet pag. 22. 30. 34. 203. The word and ordinances of Christ as playne for vs now as was for the Iewes vnder the Law Yea more playne pag. 128. The obiections of Discōtinuance of Antiquity of Ambiguity in expounding the word c. answered pag. 128. 129. How the Lord abhorreth in his worship the mixture of mans inventions with his word and ordinances pag. 61. 101. 209. The doctrine and worship of Divels pag. 121. 122. The Lotd accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances are observed though it be for his worship pag. 80. 117. 122. Princes and Magistrates ought to abolish all false worship Ministeryes and to mainteyne the true which God hath prescribed in his word p. 199. Though they do not yet ought all the people of God to forsake the false and cleave vnto the true Preface Section 4. 6. 7. pag. 43. 46. 51. 101. 148. 158. 163. 170. 180. 184. 196. c. ERRATA PAg. 6. lin 9. read thus the Assumption And note downe in the Margent Pag. 86. and 87. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is after a sort or in part Pag. 183. Mr Tindals testimony there alledged is in his works printed together pag. 176. in the Book called The obedience of a Christian man Pag. 197. lin 41. sinne as Pag. 200. lin 38. starting hole Pag. 204. lin 9. that they FINIS
Church of England the abominations aforesayd concerning the outward order and gouernment of the Church whatsoever trueths they hold besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest King in such constitution of a Church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the vvord of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted Churches of Christ And this is all the question between vs. 7. Lastly let the godly and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not follow vpon your aunswer in this place First that the Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Which is contary to 1 Tim. 3.15 2 Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1 Cor 4.6 Rev. 22.18.19 Secondly that the man of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fully furnished to euery good worke Which is contrary to 2 Tim. 3.17 1 Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.113 Thirdly that Christ himselfe in vvhome the treasures of vvisdome and knovvledge are hid yet was so foolish carelesse and vnfaithfull as having an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it any Offices Lawes and Orders for the due governing and ordering thereof Which is contrary to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Esay 33.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. Rom. 12.3.4.5.6.7.8 Mat. 28.20 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Finally that the Hierachy Worship Sacramēts Traditions Canons and vvhatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outvvard orders and gouernement of the Church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes ovvne Which is contrary to 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 Psa 94.20 119.21.113.128 Rev. 9.1.2.3 14.9 11. O shameles impietie This doubtles is that strange passion and meere desperatenes wherewith you do hereafter vniustly charge vs which we will not here prosecute as it deserveth but exhort you onely to take heed least that vvo come vpon you which is written VVoe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darkenes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter VVo vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esay 5.20.21 H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 2. Excep IN this your defence of your second Exception it pittieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be out Prophet Priest and King if we professe to obey him in his ordinances in no other I ansvvered vve do cōstantly professe so as vve professe so vve practise But to make our profession and practise in this poinct more manifest I noted hovv our state meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and hovv he is to be obeyed viz. That the vvritten vvord ought of necessity to shevv vs our invvard and meer spirituall beleif and obedience As for the outvvard Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to be appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no vvhere forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication tvvo thinges First it is foule vvrong to our Churches and to my vvordes to say as you do That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though external yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangeable by the Scriptures My expresse vvords and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our onely and absolute King and Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitiously depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our state but I say Thus to beleeue and practise simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt aunsvver you deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to be saued vvherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct vvhich in the beginning I charged you vvith That all Churches and Christians here in King Edvvards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tailor c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they vvere lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see hovv malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry and say against you O shamelesse mouth O vnchristian hart vvhich termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practise as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches now Yea betwene your owne lately and ours novv speake out vvhat is it You can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outvvard Church order vvhich vve do But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity vve malitiously they of ignorance vve of plaine obstinacy and hauing a convicted and seared conscience vvhereby they and you might be true Christians for all these errors but vve novv cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against vvhich all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Secondly we now erre not in these poincts of simplicity but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you know euery mans hart and conscience so well If you do then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whome you dare say are convicted in conscience That is much also to affirme But if you do that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and cheifest in authority that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blasphemed in denying him and yet the Assēblies then were not conuicted they still were true Churches
they adde the persecuting also of such as do convince them Now when you have showed how your self vnderstand and how we are to walke in these according to the Scriptures from point to point then applie herevnto your example of Christ here alledged and see if you do not abuse it Mind withall that if you say Christ knew this as he was God you speak nothing to the question which is how men must walk toward men If you say he knew it as he vvas man then must you prove 1. that these Iewes were convicted in conscience that he was the Christ and yet denied and blasphemed him 2. that Christ knew this as he was man 3. that still he joyned in spirituall communion with them thus convicted 4. that the estate of your Ministers and people is such as theirs was then as touching a true Ministerie and constitution of the Church 5. that the same rules and proceeding is to be vsed toward your Church and members thereof afore they can be separated from that was to be vsed toward that Church and People at that time Mind also that the Apostles preaching to the Iewes though they knew not who were convicted in conscience who not yet * Act. 2. et 13. et 17. et 18. et 19. chap vpon their refusall of the truth offred did separate from all where they were And so Christ before had required them to do Mat. 10.14 Finally mind that mens consciences are blind ignorant corrupt and the heart of man deceitful and wicked above all things Who can know it but the Lord only which searcheth the heart and trieth the reines to give every man according to his waies according to the fruit of his works Ier. 17.9.10 It is erroneous therefore to hold as you do that we may not separate till we know all to be convicted in their conscience If this were to be done then neither separation from any people neither any true Churches should ever be vpon the earth because such conviction can never be either knowen of men or had in the world It doth and must suffice vs that the truth on the one hand and the errors on the other be made knowen and convicted that is be layd open and proved from the word of God by the testimonie of his servants and that we see men by words or workes refuse the truth and imbrace error and so judg themselves vnworthy of euerlasting life Thus for your Churches M. Iacob it sufficeth vs that in your Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of people they be proved the daughters of Babylon that mother of whoredomes Out of which God hath †Rev. 18.4 17.5 vve Ezec. 16.44 charged all his people without exception or delay presently for to depart If you or any other will not obey this commaundement of God but will still partake in the sinnes of your worship and Ministery what is it to vs We must follow Christ * Heb. 5.9 who is made author of saluation to such onely as obey him Neither may we †Ier. 15.19 returne vnto you but we must waite till God bring you to vs and make you partakers of the same grace in Christ Of your third generall point here idly mentioned and absurdly gathered I have spoken before Pag. 8. Next instead of aunswering you fall a marveling because I say Mr. Hus and other of the holy Martyrs did heare and say Masse to their dying day and some of them also acknowledg the Popes supremacy But why do you not also marvell that I sayd divers of them acknowledged some the Popes calling some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some Auricular confession and such like grieuous errors For these I ioyned with the other and of them you speak not a word Belike you thinke they may stand with the Gospell wel inough and if your Church had retained or now should resume them againe you would judg of them as of the other corruptions remaining among you Yet mind withall 1. that thus you make a way for mo popish enormities to be mainteined and to prevaile apace in your Church as “ Hovv say you to those Popish doctrines novv spreading among you of Christes soule descēding into Hel. of freevvill c. beginneth alredy very fast 2. And that you can no better nor otherwise defend your present Church-estate then you could if it also retayned seven Sacraments Purgatory Auricular confession c. Let the Reader observe this And beware you in time least a wo come vpon you for such halting and pleading for Baall Now for your marvelling at me for saying thus of Mr. Hus and other the Martyrs I aske you Saith not the book of Acts and Monuments the same yea say not the Martyrs thus much of themselves Why do you not then marvell also at them For these particulars it were needles to go through all the historie of the Martyrs specially seeing they are so plainly noted in their stories and every where among you the books are in your hands Yet because Mr. Hus is here spoken of by name and you are not far frō rasing him out of the nūber of the Martyrs I will first note some particulars concerning him and then cleare him and the rest from your rash condemnation In the historie of the Martyrs before mentioned we find that Iohn Hus vnto his death held 1. †Act. and Monu edit 5. pag. 561. seven Sacramēts 2. ‡ Ibid. pag. 581. a. 584. b the Popes office and the authority of the Church of Rome 3. “ Ibid. p. 566 b. et 574. Auricular cōfession to Priests and was himself a little before his death confessed and absolved by a Monke 4. * Ibid. p. 577 a. et 581. a. said Masse himself 5. †Ibid. p. 546 held that the substance of the bread was altered into the body of Christ and that Christs body which was borne of the virgin Mary is really and totally in the Sacrament of the Altar with other the like popish opinions Now you Mr. Iacob sticke not vpon some of these to inferre that then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest that so held and did vvere holy Martyrs Your reason is because therein are found errors plainely fundamētall vvhich of them selues abolish from Christ Among which no doubt but you reckon the Masse and transubstantiation specially Thus haue you cleane put out Maister Hus and other the servants of Christ faithfull in that which they saw from being any longer in the Catalogue of the Martyrs or accounted true Christians May I not then iustly returne vpon your self your owne saying Is this you that vvhite the toombes of the Martyrs and yet in fine condemne them for no true Christians for no holy Martyrs But you say the book of Acts and Monuments vvhither I send you affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Let the book it self speak for vs both In the end of Iohn Hus his storie thus it saith
any should pray to be delivered from the Bishop of Rome and all his derestable enormityes If you will have your reason go for currant then let this also go with it hand in hand Now because you would here persuade vs that the publik ordinance of your Church sheweth you hold your faith and doctrine by the word professedly I will further prove vnto you that it is the faith or in deed an heresy of your Church that Christs soule went downe into Hell while his body was in the grave First the third Article of ‡ Book of Artic published 1562. your faith agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. hath this title Of the going downe of Christ into Hell Then the words of the Article follow thus As Christ dyed for vs and was buryed so also it is to be beleeved that he went downe into Hell Your translating and chaunging of the words of the Article otherwise then they do themselves as I noted before sheweth not their meaning but your perverting thereof I omit that in your aunswer to D. Bilson you set not the words of the Article of K. Edwards tyme in English at all Belike you saw it would sooner have discovered your fraude Secondly M. Nowell in his †On the Artic of the Creed He descended into Hel. Catechisme saith as much as your Article doth And this Catechisme is authorised in an whole * Syn. Lond. Anno. 1571. Synod and cōmāded to be taught throughout the Land Thirdly to put the matter out of all doubt the singing Psalmes printed with priviledge and authorised to be sung in all your Churches ♣ In the Psal beginning thus All my belief and cōfidence c. have it expressely thus And so he dyed in the flesh but quickned in the spirit His body then was buried as is our vse and right His spirit did after this descend into the lower parts To them that long in darknes were the true light of their harts Note also that the title of this Psalme is The 12. Articles of Christian faith Is not this then your Churches expresse faith and doctrine Yea is not that also expressed here which in the Article in K. Edwards tyme was mentioned How badly then and sophistically do you plead about your Churches faith and ordinance herein Towching which I meane the ordinance of your Church you may see D. Bilson hath the better of you though otherwise by the word of God it is plaine he hath the worse and standeth in a detestable error both against all proportion of faith and against the expresse evidence of these Scriptures Luk. 23.46 with Psal 31.5 Ioh. 19.30 Luk. 23.43 with 2 Cor. 12.2.4 Rev. 2.7 3.21 Heb. 12.23 Col. 2.14.15 Eph. 4.8.9.10 1 Pet. 3.18.19.20 2 Cor. 13.4 Psal 16.8.9.10.11 with Gen. 5.24 37.35 2 King 2.1.11 Eccles 12.7 Act. 7.59 Luk. 16.26 But tell me now Mr Iacob what power of Christ your Church hath and in whose hands it is to excommunicate D. Bilson for teaching and mainteining this or any other false doctrine a mong you Your self are a member of that Church together with him You haue written against him and by the word of God convinced him He notwithstanding persisteth and leaveneth others as much as he can Now if you be the Church of Christ as you would beare vs in hand why do you not proceed with him by the †Mat. 18.17 1 Cor. 5.4.5.6.7.11.12.13 rule and power of Christ Or if your Church haue not that power of Christ as all may see why do you not confesse it to be none of Christs Even by this then if you note it well you may perceive what your Churches faith and ordinance is Not to speak here of other most erroneous doctrines and filthy abominations mainteined among you In the third place I proved the Samaritans sinne to be against the second commaundement inasmuch as worshipping the true God they did it in and by the Images they framed Now your aunswer is that they worshipped the Idols of the Heathen and sacrificed to them and accompted them to be Gods aswell as the God of Israel and so brake the first commaundement And to prove this assertion of yours true and myne false you alledge 2 King 17.29.30.31 Where it is said Every nation made their Gods c. But are you no better divine then so Mr Iacob Are you a teacher in this light of the Gospell and vnderstand not yet this phrase of Scripture Know you not that the Lord “ accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances Images Altars places Ministeryes rites ceremonies c. are kept and observed though it be for his worship and service Or mynd you not that †2 King 17.29.30.31 these and the like speaches in the Scripture are sacramentall “ Deut. 12.30.31 Iudg. 17. chap. 2 King 16 10-16 with 2 Chron. 28.23 2 King 17.7.8 c. Hos 2.16 Ezec. 14.3.4.5 c. 20.39.40 Exo. 32.4.5 When the ‡ Exod. 32.4 Iewes and ♣ 1 King 12.28 Ieroboam said of their golden calves These be thy Gods ô Israell which brought thee out of the Land of Egypt Do you think they meant those golden Idols now made by them selves were in deed the God of Israell that brought them out of Egypt Or do you not thus vnderstand it that they made and vsed those only for signes and representations of that God That this was their purpose appeareth both by the * occasion of making them and by their ‡ Exod. 32.4 vse of them being made wheras still they intended their feasts and worship before them and by them to be to Iehovah the true God * Exod. 32.1 1 King 12.26.27.28 ‡ Exod. 32.4 Exod. 32.5 1 King 12.28.32.33 with Amos. 4.4.5 5.22.23 8.14 Micah 6.6.7 The same may be seen in Michahs example of mount Ephraim and in his mother Iudg. 17. In her that when she made a graven Image even then she prayed to Iehovah the true God and dedicated to him the silver whereof she made that Image Iudg. 17.2.3.4 †Iudg. 17.5.10 In Michah himself that he ‡ Exod. 32.4 made an Ephod and Teraphim and had an house of Gods and took first one of his owne sonnes then a Levite for his Priest Yet by all these intended the worship onelie of the true God As appeareth both by his owne speach Iudg. 17.13 when he †said Now I know that the Lord Iehovah not Idols will be good vnto me seeing I haue a Levite to my Priest and by the historie following Iudg. 18.5.6 Yea of the Samaritans themselves of whom the question is when they had made their Gods and put them in the houses of the hy places the Scripture here cited by your self saith Thus they feared Iehovah the Lord and appointed out Priests c. 2 King 17.32 The words then when it is said they made Gods c. are not literallie to be taken but sacramentallie attributing that in