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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A65868	The he-goats horn broken, or, Innocency elevated against insolency & impudent falshood in answer to two books against the people of God called Quakers : the one intituled, A fuller discovery, which is stuffed with such a multitude of lyes, slanders, and perverting the truth, as the like hath not been extant : the authors of which are John Horn, Thomas Moore Senior, and Thomas Moore Junior : and the other book is falsely called truth's triumph by John Horn : which are answered for the information of the people, and the clearing of the servants of God, and the way of truth to the simple hearted from the lyes, delusions and fallacies that have proceeded from the spirit of Antichrist and blasphemy, in these men aforesaid, who profess themselves ministers of Christ but are proved ministers of Satan and unrighteousness / by a witness of Christ and his work against all the works of darkness, G.W.	Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723.	1660 (1660)	Wing W1933; ESTC R38606	53,172	64

theirs meaning Tythes and charged them with Robing him therein and to prove it brings Mala. 3. 8 9 Answ. Here in have they abused the Scripture for it does not say the Lord faulted the People for not bringing and giving Tythes to the blind Watchmen and Ignorant prophane Persons but rather faults both the Priests and People for breaking his Law and tells the Priests they were Cursed and faults them both as appears for withholding the Tythes from the Store-house saying Bring ye all the Tyths to the store-house that there may be meat in mine house Mal. 3. 10. and chap. 2. for at the store-house the Fatherless Widdows and strangers should have been relieved out of the Tyths which then were oppressed when the Priests were corrupt and the Tyths were not brought to the store-house which God commanded Mal. 3. where we accused J. H. and T. M. of ignorance in their pleading that all are not hirelings that take hire for which they brought Zech. 11. 12. And to our telling them it was spoken by way of prophesie concerning Judas demanding hire of the chief Priests for betraying Christ J. H. and T. M. Replyes Christ is clearly in the Prophet the Shepherd feeding the flock and asking the price not Judas as we have falsely supposed but what is said he sayes was by the Prophet Jeremiah in Matthew it is said Jer. not Zech. they say Answ. They have herein shewed their ignorance and cavelling for where did ever Christ when he was upon earth ask thirty pieces of silver of the Jews or of any for feeding the flock herein would they make Christ a hireling like themselves for in Zech. 11. 12. It is said they weiged for my price thirty pieces of silver and a goodly price that I was prized at of them which plainly hath relation to the price that Judas took for Christ of the chief Priests Mat. 26. 14. So that Christ did not take this price nor was he the hireling but Judas And where doth the Prophet Jeremiah either contradict us or the Prophet Zechariah seeing you alledge that their expression agree not And where you say that such as Christ hires and sends to keep his flock may and sometimes do prove hirelings as Judas c. A poor proof for you who are hirelings preaching for hire so Judas that hireling who carryed the bag and was a thief John 12. 6. is your way and not Christ who freely takes care over his flock and freely gives to his Ministers that they may freely give again J. H. and T. M. in Page 73. Say as for their wearing cuffs and ribbons and white boot-hose-tops they say we make a stir about trifles and lawful ornaments concerning which Christ hath not put them in bondage or forbid them to them they say Answ. If wearing cuffs and ribbons c. be lawful ornaments where is the pride and vanity in apparrel which you reproved the People for in your other Book What is not Cuffs Ribbons and Lace which many of your company wear vanity in apparrel and where you count such vanities lawful ornaments and say that Christ hath not forbid them in this have you shewn your deceit and vanity for the Apostles did not preach these things up as lawful ornaments as you have done for Paul saith I will that women adorn themselves in modest apparrel with shamefastness and sobriety not with broyded hair or gould or pearls or costly array 1 Tim. 2. 9. and Peter said whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair and of wearing of gould or of putting on of apparrel c. 1 Pet. 3. 3 4. What do you think that Christ did not speak in these Apostles And are not many of your company transgressors of his Doctrine in wearing gaudy and costly attire with their cuffs ribbons and silver lace And whereas you say concerning which Christ hath not put you in bondage nor forbid them to you we say behold your birth and what generation you are of who counts it bondage to put off your pride come to moderation Are there not some so born that would count it great bondage to be kept from whoring stealing such is their natures and the Spirits they are of And here are you and here is your liberty found in the same nature and bondage But though it be your liberty to be proud yet its bondage to them that labours to maintain you therein to the whole creation of God this we know concerning the pride and idleness and fulness of such Teachers And in that you say Christ hath not forbid them to you how is that seeing it was ever forbid to all the Ministers of Christ and their followers so we say it s not because God is more at one with it than formerly he hath been but this is the cause you having not heard his voyce at any time nor seen his shape how should he forbid you or shew you better example seeing the Scriptures you can wrest to every lust and purpose of your corrupt hearts Oh! what deceivers and Hypocrites are you to preach up and to encourage them in such vanity and pride When you should be examples of godliness and rather reprove such pride and wickedness than encourage them in it And where you say the Israelstes were not faulted of God for wearing Jewels and ear-rings and ornaments c. this cannot cover your deceit and pride for the Israelites borrowed jewels of the Egyptians such as you are and as appears they were but for a time worn for the Lord said unto them who wore the Jewels I will come up in the midst of thee in a moment and consume thee therefore now put off the ornaments from thee and the Children of Israel stript themselves of their ornaments c. Exod. 12. 35. and chap. 33. 5. and you may see as before the Apostles Preached another thing and did not wear cuffs nor ribbons nor plead for them as you do And where we charged thee J. Horne with being one of the doggs which thou said look for their gain from their quarters to this thou answers that thou charged none so I reply Oh! thou Hypocrite and lyar art thou asham'd to own thy own words wouldst thou now get into favour with ths Priests of the Nation whom thou hast so palpably writ against in thy Book called A Brief Discovery c wherein thou hast charged the Priests in Page 20. and 21. with being such as Isaiah speaks of Isa. 56. 10 11 12. Blind watch-men dumb doggs doggs strong to appetite greedy doggs hunting after livings and maintenance that look every one for his gain from his quarters and with many more such like expressions which thou and Thomas Moor have uttered against the generality of the Teachers of this Nation so that thy seeking to revoke or deny what thou hast said especially if you one begin to bite another cannot hide thy self no if thou should get the Book of Common-prayer

upon this J. Horn whom this his Book falsely Called Truth's Tryumph hath sought to Vindicate his own Corrupt Cause and to clear himself from what I charged against him in what I writ in that Book Called The Quakers no Deceivers the truth of which in his Pride and Deceit he hath sought to Trample under Foot but thereby hath he but more discovered his shame and Malice and folly and made Lyes his Refuge and under falshood hath hid himself as they spoken of in Isai. 28. 15. but the more he strives against the Truth the more he is ensnared and the worse his Cause appears Therefore he is not like to Prosper though he appear strongly in Contention for his Masters work which is Sin and unrighteousness So the Reader hereof may take notice of some of the chief of John Hornes matter which he hath laid down in order to his Fathers work who is the Father of Lyes and Lyars such as he is And to some of his Principal matter I shall briefly Answer from whence the Reader may easily Judge what Spirit the rest of J. Hornes Babylonish stuff in his Book came from In Pag. 3. J. Horne chargeth us with being an Envious and imbittered People who hiss like Serpents out of the holes This is one J. H. his Malitious Slanders for we are in that Power wherein we are a Torment to him and such Lyars as he is and in that we can tread upon such Serpents and not be stung though they shoot forth their stings against us In P. 5. J. H. Chargeth me with making the Asserting of the sayings of the Holy men of God a Warring for the Devils Kingdom Which is a Lye and a Slander against me for I make his perverting of their sayings in which he contends for Sin which is the Devils work to continue in all and all to be Sinners so long as they live a Warring for the Devils Kingdom since that where Sin is destroyed by Christ 1 Joh. 3. 7 8. there the Devils Kingdom cannot stand And what confusion is this J. Horne in in his Warring for this his Fathers Kingdom One while he pleads that the Prophets and Apostles had Sin in them and were Sinners so long as they lived as in Pages 5. and 26. and for it brings Ecc. 7. 20. 1 Kin. 8. 46. when at other timee both he and T. M. have admitted of a further state that the Saints attained to then being Sinners while they lived for they have said that they might have Sin in them when they did not do it and that they that were born of God could do nothing against the Truth 2 Cor. 13. 8. so that when the Saints sinned not or did not sin as they have granted then they were not sinners so in their accusing them with being sinners so long as they lived they have shewed their Deceit and confusion J. H. His Reason to prove that no man is perfectly freed from Sin in this Life is that Sicknesses Diseases and mortality that came in by Sin abides upon all men till the death yea and the bodily death that came in by Sin abides upon all till the Resurrection he saith In which he hath shewed his falshood and Ignorance for does sickness abide upon all men till death Surely then he would make all men live a sad life if Sickness be upon them all their Life time Again some of the Righteous may be Lyable to sickness or diseases through natural Causes as hunger cold outward sufferings which Christs when he was upon Earth also suffered and was subject to infirmities as they confess yet that does not Argue therefore that the Righteous are not freed perfectly from Sin in this Life no more than it Argues that Christ had Sin and the death which they dye who dye in him which is gain to them did not come in by sin but that death which is already upon all the wicked though living as also sickness may come as a Judgement upon such and to his saying that bodily death abides upon all till the Resurrection I say what bodily death then came upon Enoch Elijah or Melchizedeck for Sin and where dyed they that death Gen. 5. 24. Heb. 11. 5 2 King 2. And where I proffered to be willing to prove against J. H. If lawfully called either in the Market place Steeple house c. 1. That he J. H. is out of the Life and steps of the true Ministers and in the steps and Practices of Deceivers and so is a Hypocrite and no Minister of Christ who being a Parish Priest is Guilty of the Priests Iniquity whom he hath declared against 2. That he upholds a dead Formal Worship like the World c. 3. That his Ministry wherein he contends for Sin is Antichristian and both against the Commands and promises and Works of God and tends to the making both the Preaching and Praying of Christ and the Saints Ineffectual 4. And that he the said J. H. is a Forger of Lyes a false Accuser a Slanderer and so one of the Dragons Army who was wroth with the Woman that brought forth the Man-childe and the Remnant of her Seed that kept the Commands of God These I charged J. H. with and proffered to make them good against him to which he saith P. 6. My foolish Challenge as he calls it he shall not accept c. To which I say ah J. Horn thou wast herein touched what wast thou affraid to have thy works tryed and brought to light this sheweth thy Guilt but thou knowest I was not affraid to meet thee upon thy Challenge and to Vindicate the Truth which thou hast split thy self against for all thy boasting and what thinkest thou art thou clear from the Deceivers Practices and the Parish Priests Iniquity when thou art Preaching for Hire and pleading for it and Tythes did ever Christs Ministers plead for and take Tythes as thou hast done and dost thou not think your Steeple-house worship whereunto People are called by a company of Bells is dead and Formal and your Singing Davids words and Experiences in Rime and Meeter and Preaching by an hour glass where hast thou Scripture for these your Practices I Queried thee about them in a Paper I sent thee a great while ago which I never yet received an Answer to thy guiltiness in these and many other things plainly may be seen And in P. 6. Thou sayest thou sent me word that thou should henceforth have no more to do with me but according to the Apostles Counsel Reject us But thou may see thou hast herein Lyed again for wherefore hast thou scribled so much confused stuff against us if thou intended to have more to do with me and against me in particular hast thou shewn thy vennome the most In P. 6. Again thou sayest Thou shalt not go about to plead thy own Cause but leave it to God and rather take good Hezekiah's course when Sennacherib railed upon him that would not have him

The He-Goats Horn Broken OR INNOCENCY Elevated Against Insolency Impudent FALSHOOD In Answer to two Books against the People of God called Quakers The one intituled A FULLER DISCOVERY which is stuffed with such a multitude of Lyes Slanders and perverting the Truth as the Like hath not been extant The Authors of which are John Horn Thomas Moore Senior and Thomas Moore Junior And the other Book is falsely called TRUTH' 's TRIUMPH by JOHN HORN Which are Answered for the Information of the People and the clearing of the servants of God and the way of Truth to the simple hearted from the Lyes Delusions and Fallacies that have proceeded from the Spirit of Antichrist and Blasphemy in these ●●n aforesaid who Profess themselves Ministers of Christ but are proved Ministers of Satan and Unrighteousness By a witness of Christ and his work against all the Works of Darkness G. W. In vain have the Wicked exalted their Horn against the Righteous LONDON Printed for Robert Wilson at the Sign of the Blackhead Eagle and Windmill in Martins near Aldersgate 1660. A PREFACE OH how great hath the wrath of the Dragon that old Serpent who is the Father of Lyes been against the Seed which God hath Raised up and Indued with his Power from on High and yet this Seed hath Dominion over all the strength and wrath of the wicked One to lift up a Standard against him even when he Appears and breaks forth as a flood against the Lord and his Anointed against whom no Iniquity nor Enmity can prevail or Prosper and this hath the Lord God of Hosts made us Witnesses of to his Eternal Praise that it is no marvell to us that the Generation of Vipers and Serpents who are Warring for the Kingdom of Darkness do put forth their stings and cast out their Vennome against us since that in the Power of God we are brought to tread upon them and their deceits and if the Readers hereof have a single eye to the Lord in his Light in them they 'l see what a Body of Wickedness and Enmity hath Appeared in these our Opposers viz. in John Horn Thomas Moore the Elder and the Younger who have pleaded and much Contended for Sin which is the Devils Work and for their wearing Cuffs and Ribbonds and for Tythes which the Ministers of the New Testament pleaded not for nor ever owned such Vanities as Cuffs and Ribbonds c. So that all sober minded People who Love the Light of the Lord in them and his Truth may soon see what Spirit these are of that plead for and uphold such deceits as these men aforesaid have done And let the witness of God in all Consciences be minded by which the Spirits may be tryed and discovered whether they be of God or no and this Light of Christ in your Consciences being minded and you who have a desire to know the Lord waiting in the Light it will bring your minds into stability to feel Gods Power and Teachings where the Confusion cannot prevail over you for your Confusion and Darkness is among the Teachers and People who are as the Waters that are unstable where the Whorish Spirit Rules And wo is to such who are the Inhabitants of the Earth and of the Sea unto whom the Devil is come down and hath great wrath because he knoweth that he hath but a short time Rev. 12. 12. A BRIEF ANSVVER To the Book Called A Fuller Discovery c. EVil men and Seducers wax worse and worse deceiving and being deceived and the wise Men are turned backward and the Diviners made Mad 2 Tim. 3. 13. Isai. 44. 25. who have striven to overthrow the Truth as these men viz. John Horn Thomas Moore Senior and his Son Thomas Moore have done that their Impudency folly and Falshood more Appears than ever who have evidently shewed themselves to be such as walk with Slanders and have made Lyes their Refuge who are such as the Prophet called Brasse and Iron who are all corrupters Jer. 6. 28. which I shall here briefly shew both for the clearing of the Truth and us the Witnesses of it and for the satisfying of the Simple that they may not be Corrupted with the Lyes and Corrupt Doctrines of these the Truth's Enemies who whilest they Profess Liberty and Redemption to others and pretend a denyall of the Priests of the Nation they themselves are Children of Corruption in Bondage to the Devil that old Lyar his works which many both Priests and Professors have largely Appeared in against Gods Truth and work in his People For notwithstanding this J. Horn and Thomas Moore have acknowledged themselves to be neglecters of Christ and abusers of his Truth yet still they proceed in the same Iniquity and notwithstanding John Horn in page 55. of this their Fuller Discovery so Called where he had laid down a Falshood in his other Book now Confesseth himself subject to forgetfulness And over sights and so did in his forgetfulness write c. and in Page 66. they acknowledge that they have their share too much in the Pollutions viz. of the Nation in General and in Pag. 63. whereas John Horn had palpably belyed me about a Passage he had Learned out of a Priests Queries in Cambridge he now Confesseth himself Faulty and craves forgiveness he having been too rash in taking that upon trust which he Falsely charged me with as they acknowledge and yet how often have these Men accounted us Called Quakers false Prophets Deceivers Lyars Accursed as also they have accounted us Vipers and Scorpions Cockatrices not to be Charmed and like the Locusts out of the Bottomless pit whose sting is in their Tayles which Revilings the Reader may Judge what Spirit they came from since they have craved forgiveness of us for belying us * and yet how often have they denyed that they have belyed us in their Books may be seen but what Hypocrites are they to Profess themselves Christs Ministers and be found in Lying as they are and what is their Confession worth when they continue in their evil as an Addition to their many former Lyes Forgeries and their former Rashness and abuses against the Truth they have falsely charged us with and laid down these things following against us called Quakers which we deny and return back upon Jóhn Horn and both the Tho Moores aforesaid who are the Inventers of these Lyes Slanders and Absurdities which were never owned by us Their Lies and Slanders in their Epistle are these viz. 1. They charge us with Maintaining that that body of flesh in which Christ suffered and bare our sins and which rose again is not a Body 2. That the Blood of Jesus Christ is not of the Foundation of our Faith and that our Faith is not Faith in Christs Blood 3. That the Body of his Flesh in which he Suffered we deny to remain 4. That the lower parts of the Earth into which Christ descended and the Heavens into which he

answered again Herein hast thou shamefully Lyed again for thou hast gone about thorow much of thy Book to plead thy own Cause and hast not taken good Hezekiah's Counsel as thou hast pretended but hast answered again though to thy own confusion And in Pag. 7. Where thou sayest The Quakers would be thought to be better than the Prophets and Apostles This is thy Lye and slander J. H. And in Pag 8. To my saying the true Prophet sayes all his Judgements were before me and as for his Statutes I did not depart from them I was also upright before him and have kept my self from my iniquity 2 Sam. 22. 24 but thou sayest that David acknowledges he had then Iniquity for how was Iniquity his if there was none in him In which thou hast perverted Davids words for David saith he kept himself from his Iniquity and did not depart from the Statutes of the Lord so that then he was not a Sinner and our transgressions and our Sins the Saints spoke of when they were washed from them and their transgressions done far from them Psal. 103. 12. Rev. 1. 5. In P. 9. J. H. Saith It is true too that God promises that his People shall be all Righteous and clean from all their filthiness c. and that God is performing his promises to them that they may all be perfectly Righteous even in themselves in the New Heaven and Earth and New Jerusalem where shall be no unclean thing he saith To which Reply In this hath John Horn overthrown his former Doctrine for if the People of God shall be cleansed from all their filthiness as in Ezek. 36. 25. and be all perfectly Righteous in the New Jerusalem then they are not to be Sinners nor have sin in them so long as they live as J. H. hath affirmed for the Saints before their decease were come unto New Jerusalem and to be Citizens there and to a Kingdom that could not be shaken into which no unclean thing could come and to see the removing of the old Earth and Heaven which were shaken Ephes. 2. 19. Col. 1. 13. Heb. 12. which yet J. H. and all such as he who are contending for the Devils work are Ignorant of And as for those that John saw Rev. 14. who were without fault before the Throne of God I. H. saith all that heartily believe in Christ and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel it is Christs Office to present them holy unblameable and without Reproof in Gods sight Col. 1. 22 23. not because they are sinless in themselves he saith Mark his confusion and deceit here according to J. H. his words here the Saints who are without fault before the Throne of God and holy blameless and without Reproof in Gods sight are Sinners notwithstanding as if sin were no fault and not to be Reproved or blamed in Gods sight Oh! what darkness and deceit art thou in I. H. what art thou wholly past feeling doest thou not know in thy own particular that every Sin thou hast is Reproveable and art thou not Reproved in thy own Conscience by the Light for it surely thou art exceedingly hardened and hast denyed Christs Office in thy contending for sin to continue even in them whom Christ presents Holy unblameable and without reproof in Gods sight who live not to themselves but unto the Lord And in P. 10. I. H. Saith He that in such a sence as in 1 Joh. 1. 9. confesseth his Sins is Righteous as Christ is Righteous for Christ is his Righteousness and yet he that confesseth his sin is not without sin in himself In which he hath uttered Blasphemy against Christ for Christ hath no Sin in himself to confess as they have who are but confessing their Sins which they have who are not freed from Sin for they who are Righteous as Christ is Righteous do witness Sin condemned in the flesh and destroyed and walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit being purified from all the filthiness of flesh and Spirit And to my saying that Paul witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the Birth was born in him or before he was Born of God which I. H. hath deceitfully perverted and wronged my words about and that Paul spake to Conditions below his own to the Romans which I. H. saith cannot be true and the other too for if Paul was but then groaning to be born and not born of God he spake of his own state and if he spake to others states below his own then is it not true that he had while an Apostle a time in which he was not born of God To which I say in this hath he shewed his blindness and falsehood for he hath not a ground for these cavals against me in that I never affirmed that Paul was but groaning to be born of God when he wrote to the Romans nor that he was not born of God when an Apostle but I know he witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the free born state was witnessed in him as also after he was come into that state himself he suffered with the body where it suffered and travailed for its redemption where it was not redeemed which body was not one member but many and for the suffering seeds-sake in those members Paul condescended to states below his own even when he wrote to the Romans all which he himself could not then be in when he so wrote yet a sufferer and a traveller under all those burthens which the body under went about whose condescending I have more fully writ in that Book called the Quakers no Deceivers Page 14. 15 16 17. the truth's whereof J. H. cannot get over for all his cavails And where thou sayest J. H. in P. 9. that the temptations God tries his People with are to try and purifie their faith from the mixtures therein In this thou art ignorant of the faith of Gods elect and the mystery of it for it is pure and stands in the power of God where there is no mixture of sin it being of another nature than sin for it worketh sin out J. H. in P. 16. Speaking of the birth which is born of God he saith he denies not but in that birth there might be degrees and grouth after nor will the perfection of it be as to the body till the resurrection thereof from the Dead To which I say that birth thou never knew nor its perfection For how could the body be a Temple for the Lord if the perfection of the birth be not as to it For the Saints were born of water and the Spirit which cleansed them from all filthiness of flesh and Spirit so that they became members of his body of his flesh and of his bone J. H. saith The Prophet Isaiah doth not witness that in them a Child was born and a Son in them was given Answ. Christ was the first born in many Brethren {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}

Answer to my Queries thou seemest ●o be Resolved to say something although it be absolute contrary to the Truth and to that which thou knowest to be Truth as will appear in what followes In Answer to my first thou sayst Christ in his Spirit Ascended up to Heaven when his Body was upon Earth is this an Answer to the Question is the minde or Spirit called the Son of man according to John 3. 13. which came down from Heaven and no man doth Ascend up to Heaven but the Son of man which was then in Heaven so by this thy Answer it appears then that the Spirit is the Son of man and that there is no other Son of man that Ascends into Heaven but the Spirit then what becomes of that Body thou speaks of if the Spirit onely be that Son of man In thy Answer to the 2. and 3d. Queries thou provest In thy way that Mary did that which was forbidden by Christ when she held him by the Feet and worshipped him but in Mat. 28. 9. there is no forbiding of her to touch him but this is plainly manifest that thou art in a snare and cannot tell how to get out and yet thou wilt be saying something though thereby thou more ensnare thy self but this Scripture thou wilt once know fulfilled the wicked shall be silent in darkness When thou shouldst Answer to the Fourth thou telst of its being a secret and of prying into things above what is written although the ground of my Query is grounded upon that which is written in Luke 24. 4. To the Fifth thou saist that the Women did distinguish which was Christ was certain but how they did so is a foolish curious Question what certainty is there that they did know when thou knowest not how but this is like the rest of the Priests Doctrine beating the Ayre and leaving all People in uncertainties and yet would be paid for so doing but the Lord hath made thee manifest with the rest that you cannot deceive much longer To the Sixth thou sayest the two Angels were seen visibly but were not bodies nor Persons of men but in thy Answer to the Fourth sayst that they both saw them as men and heard them speak and had two Individual Forms Now if thou were but simple and not wilfully blind thou mightst be the more excused In thy Answer to the Seventh thou art more lost and confused then in all the rest for when thou shouldst Answer who were the 11. Disciples that were met together mentioned Luke 24. 33. Thou saist that Thomas might occasionally be gone out Answ. If he was gone out then the 11. was not together as Luke 24. Again thou sayst that Matthew was chosen before the Evangelist wrote this Book what Darkness and Ignorance is this thou art not Questioned when the Book was written nor when Matthew was chosen but who was the Eleven that was together and whether was Matthew one of the Eleven seeing he was not then chosen when Christ did arise from the dead but there needs not much be said to thee onely to let thee see thy own folly least thou should say thou art wise To the Eight thou seemst to Affirm that the Scripture are to be taken as they speak and not otherwise a Mystery Answ. Then why dost thou and the Priests give meanings to the Scriptures and do not let People take them as they speak but makes them such a Mystery without your meanings and so plain with them but this is thy Practice and Doctrine to condemn thy self in the thing that thou allowest and builds again that which thou hast destroyed and so makes thy self a Transgressor Lastly in thy conclusion thou falsely chargest me that I do not believe that any of these things mentioned in these Scriptures to be really done which is not my Faith for I do believe that those things mentioned were really done and fulfilled as the Scripture speaks but it is no new thing with thee to accuse falsely and to make Lyes thy refuge but what in all those things thou hast done against me I do forgive thee and do warn thee for the time to come that thou go not on to commit the unpardonable Sin against God and his Spirit never to be forgiven Again in thy last Paper thou declarest thy Ignorance of the two Seeds and askest what be those two Seeds Answ. These two the Scripture speaks of the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of the Serpent 2. Who did or doth sow them Seeds Answ. God doth sow the one and the wicked one the oher 3. Where be they sown Answ. In man 4. When be they sown Answ. When man had a being and a body to receive them 5. What be the bodies they shall rise with Answ. Their own bodies according to their own natures the one pure and the other defiled 6. Whether be these two Seeds and two bodies in all the world or two Seeds in every man and the two bodies to or in every man Answ. The Seeds are but two in the whole world having each Seed its own body and in every o 〈…〉 e one be cast out 7. When shall those Seeds arise or be raised whether after the bodily death or after spiritual death Answ. Every one in Its own order after the death of that which is born of the Flesh and also after the death of the spirituall wickedness which is yet alive in all hirelings and Deceivers such as thou art where the Seed of God is yet in its grave 8. What are the graves these are in and out of which they shall arise These of which the Scripture speaks which when thou comest to understand it thou wilt understand both the Seeds and graves of which we speak Christ the Seed made his grave in the wicked and in the rich in his death and out of that grave shall rise with his Body into everlasting Life if thou canst receive it thou maist be satisfied And as to thy 9. Query Why I say that the one shall rise into everlasting Life and the other into Condemnation Answ. Because it is so therefore I say so and if thou say to the contrary make it manifest but in this as in other things thy folly and Ignorance is manifest to ask why I speak the Truth which thou thy self darest not to be Truth R. HUBBERTHORNE A POST-SCRIPT AND T. M. Sen. Thou hast taken a bad work in hand now in thy old age to joyn thy self and to appear so publickly with a lying Spirit as thou hast done But how wast thou liks to do better when thou hast denyed the Lord in thy turning into the way of the coveteous Tyth-taking-Parish-Priests whose deceit thou formerly hadst a sight of and in part wast made to witnes against them but that zeal and that simplicity which thou hadst then is turned into darkness and betrayed and thou become as sottish and as dark an Earth-worme as the Priests whom thou hast witnessed against And thou art become a respecter of persons and canst bow and cring under such as be great in the Earth as they do for their own ends and thou art by many taken notice of to be more sottish dead and dark since so much thou hast partaken of the Priests iniquity then ever thou wast and the same enemy and betrayer in thee and thy two Disciples viz. J. H. and thy Son leads you out to deceive others with your dreams and imaginations and to betray the simplicity and to murder the innocent in others for which you have a sad account to give and if thou returnest not to that principle which once brought thee in part to see the deceit of the Priests but continuest in thy deceit hypocrisie and accusing the innocent and so remainest in sottishness and hardness of heart thou will be cut off perish in thy iniquity in thy old age Alas What silly men are ye You are never like to gain to your selves any honour and credit among any that are honest hearted by your Books and aspersions against the poor Quakers so called for it is so common a thing for them to undergo revilings and aspersions even from the vilest of men as Drunkards Covetous Idolaters and the like that in what you have done you have not shewn your selves any whit more eminent or famous than such but have meerly rancked your selves in the Dragons Army with them in belying and slandering the iunocent THE END * Though we own that which brings them to Confesse their Lying and Faults and can forgive but we cannot own their Dissembling and feiguedness in it * which is as much as to say not Christ in them but Christ in men and that his riches is not the possession what folly is this * That which is humane is earthly as humanus homo are of hhmus the ground from whence man was taken so that a humane Soul is an earthly Soul what then hath Christ both an earthly Soul and a divine Soul in him J. H. T. M. I. H. T. M. J. H. T. M. J. H. T. M. T. M. J. H. P. 104. J. H. T. M. * But what is the beloved City and the Camp of the Saints which Gogg and Magogg do compass about when the 1000. Years are ended Revel. 20. 8 9. whether is it an outward City or not And where shall it be and whether any be yet come to that beloved City * This is another such a reason as I Horns saying that he is not a dumb dog for he could worry me c. J. H.

hath many Members so also is Christ and now are they many Members yet but one body 1 Cor. 12. 12 20. and there is one body and one Spirit Ephes. 4. 4. but I. Horn in a Paper to me saith that Jesus hath a humane Body and Soul * where does the Scripture say that Christs Soul is humane For his Soul is divine and immortal mens natural or earthly bodies are humane and the Apostle distinguisheth between them and the Spiritual bodies 1 Cor. 15. 40 44. so that Christ hath a glorious Spiritual body in Heaven which few can discern distinct from mens teresttial or natural bodies wch are humane now if Christ hath a natural or humane body a Spiritual body his Church too which is his body which they call his Mistical body may they not as well say he hath three bodies And then why not as well four or five bodies But their Ignorance about the natural and the Spiritual bodies is so plainly discovered in our Book intituled a Brief Discovery of the Dangerous Principles c. in which the Truth is so clearly over them that I need say little as to that Particular now To that 1 Thes. 4. 15. Where its said we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord c. John Horn and T. M. say we that live and remain means but those of us that shall be found living that is of the company of believers with whom they numbred themselves because then living and possibly not knowing but they might have lived to his coming but it no more implyes that the believers of that age should live and remain till the coming of Christ then they who lived in David's age lived in Moses age many hundred years before him c. I Answer Herein these perverters would accuse Paul with speaking both ignorantly and falsely to speak ignorantly as if he knew not whether they should live and remain till the coming of the Lord who then were alive and to speak falsely in their denying that the believers of that age should live and remain till the coming of Christ whenas Paul expresly said we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them that are asleep so that they knew the several appearances and opperations of Christ till they all beheld his glory with open face as in a glass and were made to sit with him in Heavenly places J. H. and T. M. The Apostles exhort to set our affections upon things above where Christ is also at the right hand of God not upon things within your selves but upon things above Col. 3. 2. 3. I Answer If the Saints were not to set their Affections on things within themselves then not upon Christ in them for the Riches of the Glory of this mystery was Christ in them the hope of Glory Col. 1. 27. so see the darkness of these men who would as by their Doctrine divide Christ who is both in the Saints and at Gods right hand not devided nor Gods right hand devided from them who are saved by it and how should they set their affections on things above when they do not affect Christ nor his Spirit in them Page 42. J. H. and T. M. The Apostles Faith was not grounded in Christs appearing in them Page 42. Answ. Which is contrary to the Apostles Doctrine for Paul Preached to the Saints that their faith might stand in the power of God and this power wrought mightily in them and Paul said examine your selves whether you be in the faith prove your own selves know you not your own selves how that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be reprobates J. H. and T. M. in Page 31. accuse us with being Juglers and Jesuites that are full of lies and confusion But this I return back upon them as a lie and a slander invented in their malice for do they know us to be Jesuites Why do they not discover us to be such then After that J. H. and T. M. have denyed that they that were led by the Spirit of God did witness the creature brought into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God before their decease wherein they have discovered much ignorance of the state of them who were led by the Spirit of God who remained not all their life time without their liberty they say it is God that hath ordered the Redemption there spoken of viz. Rom. 8. 23. to be after death c. and that it was their part viz. the Apostles and so is ours to groan after it and wait for it till the time of Christ's descending from Heaven to change our vile body c. To which I say and this descending of Christ from Heaven according to these mens words is not till after mens decease when they say the bodies shall be raised And then if it be the Saints part that are deceased and the part of all believers to groan after and wait for the redemption of the body as if the Saints body were not changed nor redeemed from the bondage of corruption before their decease as these men affirm where are the Saints deceased now groaning for Redemption are they with the Father in Heaven groaning for it Or are they groaning in some Purgatory between Heaven and Hell Oh! what sottishness are these men in For in the Father is rest from burthens and bondage which caused the groaning and the Saints according to their expectations and hope knew the working of the Power of God according to which they witnessed a changing of the body of their lowness as the word renders it {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} and a fashiong of it into the likeness of Christs glorious body which power these men being ignorant of they put that Redemption and the glorious liberty of the Sons of God a far of till after the decease they know not how long but their ignorance about that hath been largly manifest Again to vindicate Thomas Moors instancing for Christ's being in Heaven with a body of flesh and bones without blood in it that we do not read that there was any blood in Adam's body in Paradice To this J. Horn and T. M. say that T. Moor brought forth indeed such an observation as a conception or thought of his which rendered it probable to his apprehension that a glorified spiritual body needs not the being of material blood in it and that he reads not that Adam's body had blood in it before the fall in which he conceives what before was more purely Spirits was changed into blood and therein the body became mortal but this is but his private conception which he gives not forth as an Oracle to be believed as an Article of Faith they say Page 53. I Answer Mark the deceit and lying divinations of these men and how doubtful and confused they are in what they deliver it is known by many that Thomas Moor affirmed openly as also he hath in

some of his Books that Christs body in Heaven is a body of flesh and bones without blood in it and that he ascended without material blood But against this their own assertion they say in Page 26. yet that his body is a body of flesh and bones in Heaven without blood in it they determined not So who should believe these Hypocrites who assert things that they themselves are so doubtful of and Preached their own conceptions and imaginations which they have no Scripture for and against their own words have guessed above what is written and have given forth their private conceptions not as an Oracle to be believed Oh! what darkness and folly are they in And yet after that they have confessed that what they have said of Adams body not having blood in it before the fall is but a private conception which they give not as an Oracle to be believed They go about to vindicate this private conception of theirs in these words viz. but how prove we that Adam had blood Why blood is the life T. M. may answer it is so in the fallen state follows it it was so there they say So then it follows from these mens words that it is in the fallen state that men have blood in their bodies that then it is the life but not in the innocent or spiritual state from whence they might as well say that then Christ had never blood in his body for he was never in the fallen state and that the Saints that were Spiritual had not blood for they were not thus in the fallen state What miserable blind guides are these that tive go about to maintain their foolish conceptions which they gall not forth as Oracles to be believed And to our saying that Nations are made of one blood Acts 17. 26. J. Horn and T. Moor say but neither doth that cross T. Moors apprehensions for there was no Nation nor man made of Adam before his fall he fell before he propagated they say Answ. Here again their folly and sottishness exceedingly appears for Adams falling before he propagated does notargue that he had no blood in his body before he fell for Nations to be made of for he might have propagated if he had not fallen seeing that when God had created man in his own image male female created he them then God blessed them and God said unto them be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it c. Gen. 1. 27 28. And where we asked them whether they believe there was no blood left in Christs body when crucisied They answer how should we certainly believe what is not revealed Some judge it probable there was not because it is said after his fide was pierced forthwith came there out blood and water water is mentioned last as if blood might be all drained out till water followed it they say I answer Here again they have shewed their weakness in that they have here shewn that they do not certainly believe there was no blood in Christs body when Crucified because it s not revealed to them and where they say that forthwith came there out water and blood I say what could the blood all come out forthwith so that people may take notice that all their former asserting that Christ ascended without material blood and that his body is in Heaven without blood in it their thus blindly reasoning for it as they have here done is but all in darkness since what they speak of it is not revealed to them and therefore they say they find some good men that had the oversight of the Churches here in Queen Elizabeth and the following dayes did not disbelieve or deny such a conception for they say it is printed amongst those songs set before or after the Psalms in the complaint of a sinner Thus they The Scripture doth declare no drop of blood in thee for that thou didst not spare to shed each drop for me Page 54. Whence the Reader may see from whence J. Horn and old T. Moore and his Son have part of their Faith or their Testimony for it even from among Songs which were Invented by men what sad stuff is this but sure could they have proved their Faith and their Conceptions by the Scriptures they needed not to have gone to among old Songs to have proved it which are but Aditions of men not given forth by the Prophets or Apostles After that John Horn hath in pag. 55. Confessed himself subject to forgetfulness and over-sights and that he did in his forgetfulness write Job for Elihu because the Book doth wholly bear the Title of Job he further proceeds in his Deceit to Vindicate his words in a Letter to Eliz. Underwood which were that the good Angels are not pure in the presence of God and to prove it he brought Job 4. 18. and 15. 15. where it s said behold he putteth no trust in his Saints and his Angels he charged with folly which were none of Jobs words but Eliphaz his words who was one of the Miserable Comforters that came against Job and one of them against whom the wrath of God was kindled and spoke not the thing of God that was right as Job did Job 42. 7. but John Horn replyes that what Eliphaz said of the Angels as charged with folly is related by Eliphaz rather as a thing Revealed to him and said to him in a Vision by a Spirit I Answ. But what Spirit it was that led Eliphaz to speak so against the Saints Angels thou J. H hast not made appear but in thy Darkness and Deceit hast Joyned with that Spirit that hath accused the Brethren and the good Angels as thou hast done further then Eliphaz did for where provest thou that the good Angels are not pure in the presence of God and what Sin canst thou prove the good Angels Guilty of that makes them Impure and what are the names of those good Angels that thou hast so accused and doest thou believe that God putteth no trust in his Saints according to his words that thou hast quoted to prove thy Deceit Again Pag. 57. J. H. and T. M. Say they said about that in 1 Cor. 15. So flesh and blood cannot Inherit the Kingdom of God that in the Changed state what was blood before might be Changed into Pure Life and Spirit the thing and Substance remaining though they say not in the same Form of Blood which yet they Conclude not they say Answ. Here again they have shewed their folly and Imaginations for which they have been reproved in Laying down that which they have no Scripture for but their own blind Supsition which now they Conclude not and so are but uncertain of their blindly saying That in the Changed state what was blood before might be changed into pure Life and Spirit and yet the thing and Substance remaining So how can others believe these men when they seem hardly to believe their own