and you shall perceiue that it is but for lacke of the second which is Mitescere pietate to be meeke by pietie that you so presumptuously make obiections Pur. 386.208 calling them in your pryde vnauoidable resons against those bookes which by your own confession the whol true Church hath Canonized And what be these vnauoidable resons First because the author of the second booke commendeth one Razis for killing himselfe 2. Mac. 7. Au. 2. Gau. 23. ep 61 which is contrary to the worde of God S. Augustine answereth the Donatistes you at once saying Touching this his death the Scripture hath told it how it was done it hath not commended it as though it was to be done Secondly you say he abridgeth the fiue bookes of Iason But the Holy Ghost maketh no abridgementes of other mens writinges The booke of the Kinges in how many places it singnifieth that it abridgeth stories telling where they be written more at large in other bookes that were not Canonicall And is not S. Marke commonly called Breuiator the abridger of S. Mathew Also euery Sermon and letter in the Actes of the Apostles Aug. de cōsen Euang. li. 1. ca. 2.3 is it not an abridgement The Holy Ghost knoweth to poure againe through his new vessels both péeces of other mens writinges as you see Act 17. Tit. 1. and also bookes much more of Iason the Hebrew as also of Ethnike Poetes Thirdly He confesseth that he tooke this matter in hand that men might haue pleasure in it which could not away with the tedious long stories of Iason But the Spirit of God serueth not such vaine delight of men Is it vaine delight to desire profitable breuitie In your preface to the Reader you say I haue vsed great breuitie by a naturall inclination whereby I loue to be shorte in any thing that I write Do you compt your inclination a vaine inclination And who séeth not that in al the bookes of holy Scripture there is great obseruation of breuitie that amongst other causes also to auoide tediousnes Fourthly He sheweth what labour and sweat it was to him to make this abridgement ambitiously commendeth his trauill and sheweth the difference betwene a story at large an abridgemēt al which things sauour nothing of Gods Spirit And specially that in the end for al this you carp in the preface 2. Mac. 2. he cōfesseth his infirmitie desireth pardon if he haue spoken slenderly and barely Wherby he testifieth sufficiently that he was no scribe of the Holy Ghost That he ambitiously commendeth his trauell is but your blasphemie without any occasion geuen by him All the rest standeth wel ynough with the assistance of the Holy Ghost vnlesse you think that the scribes of the Holy Ghost may not speak of themselues as of men humano more or the they must alwayes be eloquent alwaies able to do al without swet without labour Doth not S. Paul asmuch cōfesse his like infirmitie whē he saith 2. Cor. 11. Etsi imperitus sermone though I be rude in speking Yea doth he not excuse his bouldnes for writing to the Romanes who were so full of all knowledge and saith that he did it not but onely to put them in remembrance of that which they knew well ynough before Rom 15. did he not also in that Epistle for his ease vse Tertius his hand Rom. 16. and the like commonly in writing all his other Epistles also as appeareth 2. Thes 3 That I speake nothing of his intollerable paines taken in Preachinge wherein also he was the instrument of the Holy Ghost and not onely in his Epistles These are forsooth your vnauoideable reasons Now to S. Hierome Hieromes testimonies Pu. 214. M. Allen aleageth the authoritie of Hieronym in prol Mach. But what he meaneth thereby or what place he noteth I know not quoth you Who wil beléeue that you are so dul In the vulgare Latin Bibles is a preface vpon the bookes of Machabées in it are these wordes The Bookes of Machabees although in the Canon of the Hebrewes they be not had yet of the Church they are noted among the Stories of the diuine Scriptures Those vsual Prefaces are taken commonly of S. Hierom somtime for word somtime for sense and so is this as will appeare by the two places that you bring out of him In his preface vpon the Booke of Kings you say he doth not onely omit it in rehersall of the Canonicall bookes but also accompteth it plainly among the Apocryphal He there reporteh how many letters are apud Hebraeos with the Hebrewes to wit two and twentie and that accordingly number for number primus apud eos liber the first booke with them is Genesis and so forth to two twentie So expressy he sheweth that he rekoneth the bookes there after the Hebrewes and therefore that he speaketh of their Canon when he saith afterward that all without these is to be put among the Apocryphall Therfore Sapientia which is commonly intituled Salomons and Iesus booke the sonne of Sirach and Iudith Tobias and Pastor for that booke also he mentioneth among the bookes of the old Testament of which onely and not of any of the new Testament he there speaketh non sunt in Canone are not in the Canon The first booke of the Machabes I found in Hebrew The second is a Greeke Now what maketh this for you or against vs doth any of vs affirme that these bookes were in the Hebrewes Canon Pur. 215. But you haue another place out of S. Hierome to proue that they were neither in the Churches Canon In his Preface vpon the booke of Prouerbes Therfore euen as the Church readeth in deede the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Machabees but yet receiueth thē not among the Canonicall Scriptures So also these two bookes Ecclesiasticus and Sapientia let her reade as she doth for the peoples edification but not to confirme the authoritie of the Churches doctrines to wit against the Iewes that is the answere because their Canon hath not these bookes in it But among the Churches people they were also then read publikly and solemly in their course as well as the other bookes of Scripture As S. Augustine also witnesseth of one of them by occasion saying August de Praed San. cap. 14. The booke of Sapientia hath bene thought worthy to be recited at the deske in the church of Christ tam longa annositate so long a rew of yeres and with worship belonging to a booke of diuine authoritie to be harkened vnto of all Christian men from Bishops euen to the lowest sort of laymen faithfull penitentes and Catechumenes This was that reading of it to the peoples edification And euen so S. Hierome expoundeth him selfe in his Preface vpon the booke of Iudith saying With the Hebrues the booke of Iudith is read among the Hagiographal not amōg the (a) Hieron prol galeato in li. Regum nyne Hagiographal
¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defense of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie By Richard Bristo Doctor of Diuinitie Tit. 3. Haereticum hominem post vnam secundam correptionem deuita sciens quia subuersus est qui eiusmodi est deliquit cum sit proprio iudicio condemnatus Auoyde the Heretike man after the first and second correption knowing that he which is suche is subuerted and sinneth syth that he is condemned by his owne Iudgement Perused and allowed by me Th. Stapleton Imprinted at Louaine by Iohn Lion Anno Dom. 1580. ¶ TO THE READER IT may serue greatly to thy edification gentle Reader as it also perteineth much to my purpose in this booke to let thée vnderstande that where as there are two wayes of finding out Christian truth when it is in controuersie the one by treating of euery matter in particuler the other by giuing certayne generall rules that are infallible Twelue or thirtéene yeres agoe M.D. Allen hauing amongst other learned Catholikes of our time and countrey on this side the sea opened and defended in print most perspicuously and substantially certayne speciall articles of the Catholike saith and béeing driuen not long after by sicknes to séeke to the ayre of his natiue soyle did in the short space of his abode there deale also the other waye with many Gentlemen confirming some and setting vp agayne others by most euident and vndouted rules of truth which were alwayes common for the most part among Catholikes but the weight of them déepely considered of very few and the number of them as yet neither by him nor by any other bound vp together Onely to one gentleman requesting so much he gaue a copie of them suche a one as of extemporall and priuate writing might be looked for It is now nine yeres since I heard the same of his own mouth what time I came first into his blessed familie and was present very often when amongst vs he discoursed familiarly vpon the said rules to such liking of my part that I left him not vntill I had intreated him to take his penne one morning and out of his memorie to frame me also a copie Which copie a friende hauing séene here with me who afterward was sent home into our lords haruest in a letter from thence desired instantly to be made partaker therof affirming that he saw how medicinable it would be to many soules I communicated the matter to the Author of it He béeing wholly occupied him selfe in publike teaching of Diuinitie would haue me who then had more leasure though for skill not worthy to beare his booke to deuise somewhat vpon those and the like rules which might in print be published to the world not as though the very bare rules as in the foresaid copies were not conuenient and sufficient specially for men of intelligence and that willingly would be informed but that by the declaration and confirmation of them the rude also and obstinate might be induced And this was the occasion of my Motiues in the ende of the yeare 1574. and also of my Demaundes in the beginning of the yeare 1576 which I made vpon the motion of certayne who desired to haue the Motiues printed agayne because the first impression was for the greater part taken and destroyed by the aduersaries And now after all this the last yeare 1577. commeth foorth from one W. Fulke an heretike a pretended answere to the first copie aboue mentioned or to some extract thereof ioyned with another like answere of the same Authors to D. Allens booke of Purgatorie and to my handes it came a fewe wéekes agoe euen an 1578 stylo R. this late Christmas Sith which time reading it twise ouer I finde that he neuer so much as once mentioneth either my Motiues or my Demaundes and much lesse doth he euer goe about to infringe any of my probations therein conteined And yet notwithstanding this depe silence Fulke li. 2. p. 107. in one place he bewrayeth him selfe to haue knowen of them where he glaunceth at the diuine worke of a certayne healing which I reported in my Motiues Moti 5. fol. 19. and sayth As you haue myracles now in Flaunders of the honest woman of the olde Baily in London Although otherwise also who can thinke it possible for him to haue heard nothing at least when he sought to print his of bookes written so late of the same matter and so well knowen to the Superintendent of London and innumerable others of that side whiche also any man that had séene the copie that Fulke answereth might easily conceiue to procéede from the same Author and me onely to be his scholar howbeit I also not obscurely professed as much where I said Mot. f. 2· The preiudices and euidences for the Catholike faith against all heresies are innumerable and superable and my chaunce it hath bene through the mercifull prouidence and goodnes of God to liue certayne yeres in companie with Catholike men of great vertue wisdome and knowlege blessed of God most liberally with his graces such as our miserable countrey is not worthy of whose dayly familiar talke of such things I haue vsed to heare as to my great admiration so likewise with all diligence and attention And what I haue through such communication at sundry times or of my selfe at other times by meanes thereof obserued I purpose as memorie shall serue me and God assist me béeing thervnto both iustly moued and earnestly required in this booke at once to vtter it in part If I may say what I do ghesse hereat I suppose that it should still haue lyen by him Fulk to the Reader as it hath done he saith these eyght or nyne yeares and neuer haue bene put in print but only for shew of an answere to my Motiues and Demaundes specially séeing that where as D. Allens writing was called onely by the name of Articles this man at euery Article hath also printed the worde Demaundes because euery Article consisteth of certayne Demaundes by meane whereof I knowe already my selfe some that are deceyued and thinke it to be an answere vnto me yet in trueth it toucheth not me at all neither maketh any iuste answere to D. Allen but all so simply and so féebly that he is fayne to set it out without priuiledge as also his other booke agaynst Purgatorie Ibidem though that booke was authorized he saith almost two yeares ago wherein I knowe not whether we may beléeue his bare worde for many causes easie to be here noted and one namely for that he thus writeth in the same We beleeue that Pa. 450 VVhat if the Church vvere in Englande only or one vvere king of al countreis sometime vvher it is the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Well if it haue authoritie at the least without priuilege it hath it and his former booke
Bestiam euen within one houre after the Beast that is together with Antichrist The vvhore Babylon to serue him as his féede knightes And so you sée euidently by these Seuen hills thus expounded that the woman which sitteth vpon them is not so litle a one as you do make her but that she is Mundus impiorum the whole multitude of the wicked euen frō the first beginning of the world to the last end thereof euen al in effect that at the later day shal be drowned in hel either for being of her Apo. 14.15 16.17.18 2. Pet. 2. or conforming them selues vnto her which in the Apocalypse is most manifest as the world of the wicked it was which was in the time of Noe drowned in the vmbraticall deluge So that Rome with the Emperour of it while it was against the Church was a member yet but a member of that woman As England contrariwise which was before so long together a notable member of the woman clothed with the Sunne is now become a member most miserable of the contrarie woman and for rewarde of her mutation and Apostasie thus plagued of God that now she must heare the Scriptures so perniciously detorted in all pulpits at large and may not heare them truely sincerely healthfully reported so muche as in poore papers which if she might fréely and much more in pulpits downe downe god wot full soone would this lying and absurd new Gospell come as by this litle which hath bene here saide any man of reason will not denie And now to our third question which is of Purgatory The third part Concerning the question of Purgatory D. Allen in the end of his booke of Purgatory made two chapters of answere to their Scriptures yet saith Fulke at the first of the two This Chapter is but Pro forma tantum Pur. 437. To make a shew of a confutation where the tenth part of our arguments are not rehearsed notwithstanding there and other where vp and downe he said inough to answere all But I shal endeuour therefore to satisfie the man better in this behalfe collecting together not only the tenth part but euen al his scriptures not omitting as much as one by my will though such collecting and disposing of things so dispersed cost me in euery Chapter of this booke as much or more labour then to answere the same afterward Well syr then you reason against Purgatorie by authoritie of Scripture in part negatiuely in part affirmatiuely And your negatiue reasoning is sometimes of a piece onely sometimes of the whole Scripture Againe when it is out of a piece onely it is partly out of some one place partly out of some one booke j Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè First therfore whatsoeuer you say negatiuely out of a piece whether it be one place or one booke you haue your selfe answered it for me Pur. 449. whatsoeuer it be in these words It is no good Logike to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true These be your owne words euen also speaking there of this selfe same matter euen of Purgatory Neuerthelesse to deale more substantially I will not sticke to rehearse those places also and to answere them particulerly One of them is 1. Thes 4. vpon which in your negatiue diuinitie you demaund and say Pur. 236. How hapneth it that in so necessary a place S. Paule findeth no other comfort to moderate the mourning of the faithfull but only the quiet rest of thē that are asleepe in the Lord and the hope of their glorious resurrection Sruely if S. Paule had bene of Chrysostomes mind he would haue prescribed other maner of comfortes Against the Fathers also as Chrysostome doth to wit exhorting them to prayers and almes for their friendes departed rather then to mourne so immoderatly Séeing you so reason out of this place I pray you let me aske you Haue you whensoeuer in Sermon or otherwise you would moderate the mourning of the faithfull no other comfort but onely these two yea I say more If you haue no mo comforts in that case and if there be no moe then S. Paule there prescribeth surely there is but onely one to wit the hope of resurrection For although he name them that are asleepe in the Lorde yet of their quiet rest after that sléeping that is to say after their death he saith nothing it is but your owne addition Another place with your negatiue Logikes demaund is where hauing graunted Pur. 362. that Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and many more are witnesse that the solemne prayer for the dead in celebration of the Sacrament is the tradition of the Apostles you pose the Papistes notwithstanding and aske Why then the same is not set foorth by Matthew Marke Luke or Paule where they set foorth the institution of the Sacrament Your wordes at large and my aunswere go afore in the laste Chapter pag. ◠sauing that piece of your wordes which conteineth your negatiue reason most clearely and most boldly saying But agaynst this faigned tradition S. Paule cryeth with open mouth 1. Corin. 11. That which I deliuered vnto you I receyued of the Lorde c. This is the onely true substance of the Sacrament and onely right order of ministration and onely right vse and proper end thereof So you make as though the Apostle there prescribeth the whole order of ministration in so muche that it onely and no other may be the right order thereof contrarie to that whiche followeth in the same place Infra ca. 11. contr 44. The rest I will set in order when I come You declare your great skill in the Scripture when here so farre you misse of the Apostles purpose which was onely agaynst vnworthy receauing The greatnesse of that sinne he sheweth because of the Reall presence of Christ yea and that in the same maner as he was in his death Looke better vpon the place and sée whether it be not as I saye or rather as S. Augustine sayth Au. ep 118. ad Ian. ca. 3 Inde enim Apostolus indignè dicit acceptum ab eis qui non discernebant a ceteris cibis veneratione singulariter debita quod satis toto ipso loco in Epistola ad Corinthios prima si diligenter attendatur apparet For that respect the Apostle also doth say that they receaue it vnworthily who doe not by due and singularlye due worshippe discerne it from the rest of meates as sufficiently appeareth through that same whole place in the firste Epistle to the Corinthians if it be diligently considered So then where the Apostle intended no more but to correct the sinne of vnworthye receyuing there to require of vs to shewe that he prescribeth it to be offered for the dead yea and the whole order of ministration haue not you forsooth great reason And euen as great you haue where you argue out of particular
more playnely in the sixt Chapter But Fulke replieth to this and saith Wheras M. Allen alloweth all the interpretations that the Fathers haue made of the text 1. Cor. 3. by him alleaged as true so long as they affirmed no error he may by the same reason affirme that Contradictories are true As in that saying Mat. 5. of him that shall not come out vntill he haue payd the vttermost farthing some haue expounded that he shal be alwaies punished some that he shall not be alwaies punished How is it possible that both these interpretations can be true Mary thus it is true those He He are not one He but He that shal be alwaies punished is he that to the end of the way that is of this life agréeth not with his aduersarie whom he had deadly iniuried as saying vnto him Fatue and thereby incurring the gilt of Gehenna ignis which is the prison of the damned He that shall not be alwaies punished is he whose iniurie was but veniall Cap. 8. par 3. diui 2. as Racha And so both interpretations agrée wel not onely together but also with the text it selfe as likewise in the last chapter I declared And so much of the Doctors interpretations Now to the other kind of their Testimonies which he alleageth against vs about any of our Controuersies Secondly whether the Doctors geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. j About the Bookes of Machabees And first although it be but a by matter whether the Machabees be Canonicall Scripture or no because the last thing that I intreated of was the Scriptures that be of purgatorie and the Protestantes denie the Machabées for this expresse saying 2. Mac. 12. It is an holy and healthfull meaning to pray for the dead that they may be released of their sinnes And touching this matter he alleageth no Doctor Pur. 214. but onely S. Hierome in two places The answere wherof D. Allen gaue before and that rightly and truly as we shall well perceaue if first we remember what he alleaged for the other part Fulke briefly both reporteth it also replieth vnto it in these wordes M. Allen pretendeth to proue the booke of Machabees Canonicall by authoritie of the Church See cap. 11. coâ—ad 35 when he can not by consent that it hath with the Scriptures of God As though all bookes are Canonicall Scripture which haue consent with the Scriptures The Machabées in déed haue so as also innumerable bookes of Catholike writers and Caluins Institutions too I trow But the Churches authoritie and not such Consent it is that proueth them Canonical The Churches authoritie for the Machabes And the Churches authoritie D. Allen bringeth out of the third Carthage Councell whiche Fulke in his answere saith was a Prouinciall Councell but he must remember that in the 4. Chapter to proue the whole true Church to erre he told vs that this Prouinciall Synode hath the authoritie of a Generall Councell because it was confirmed in the Sixt Generall Councell holden at Constantinople in Trullo And therfore he cannot auoid it but that the Machabées are Canonicall by authoritie of the whole true Church and therfore in déede also Canonicall if any Scripture at all and specially such as was euer by any doubted of be Canonicall whether the true Church may erre or no. And therfore againe he doth but labour in vaine to shew that the Carthage Councell did erre in that Canon because it nameth among the Canonicall Scriptures also fiue bookes of Salomon whereas the Church sayth Fulke as though he had not confessed this Councell to be the Church as much as any other alloweth but three namely the Prouerbes the Preacher and the Canticles Not knowing what S. Augustine that was one of that Councell as Fulke him selfe saith writeth as it were of purpose to geue vs the meaning of that Councell and of others likewise speaking where he also reconeth vp all the same Canonicall Scriptures as the Councell doeth Au. de doc christ lib. 2. cap. 8. And three bookes of Salomon sayth hée the Prouerbes the Canticles of Canticles and Ecclesiastes For those two bookes the one intituled Wisdome the other Ecclesiasticus de quadam similitudine Salomonis esse dicuntur for a certaine likenes are saide to be Salomons although in déede the be not his but Ecclesiasticus is Iesus Siraches and Sapientia is an incertaine authors Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 4. as S. Augustine partely in the same place partly in his Retractations doth say Againe saith Fulke Pur. 215.457 Aug. con 2 Gaudentij Ep. li. 2. c. 23 for an other answere to the Carthage Councell in what sense they did call those bookes Canonicall appeareth by Augustine that was one of that Councell And this Scripture of the Machabees non habent Iudaei sicut c. The Iewes compt not as the Law and the Prophetes and the Psalmes What then Here you see saith Fulke that Augustine howsoeuer he alloweth those bookes yet he alloweth them not in ful authoritie with the law Prophets and Psalmes That which S. Augustine reporteth of the Iewes he ascribeth to S. Augustine him selfe Although also it follow in Augustine immediatly Sed recepta est ab Ecclesia But it is receiued of the Church not vnprofitably if it be soberly read and heard Which wordes also Fulke there alleageth with this note that S. Augustine alloweth not these bookes If Fulke be sober the Machabees are Gods vvord If he be not vvhose fault is that 2. Peter 2. without condition of sobrietie in the reader or hearer As though he allowed no booke of Scripture in ful authoritie because both he all other Catholikes with S. Péeter do require the same condition in the reader of the whole Scriptures that he wrest them not like a madde man to his owne damnation as all heretikes do and as the Donatistes did compting them selues Martyrs if they killed them selues and mainteining it with the example of Razias out of the Machabées to which S. Augustine there answereth He that would in déede know in what sense S. Augustine and his Councell call those bookes Canonicall let him consider that vnder one name of Canonicall they recken at once these with all the other Holy bookes of both Testaments Au. 2. doc christ 8. Totus Canon Scripturarum his libris continetur The whole Canon of the Scriptures is conteined in these bookes Fiue of Moises that is Conc. Cart. 3. Can. 47. Genesis c. sayth S. Augustine And the Councell in like maner Sunt autem canonicae Scripturae and the Canonical Scriptures are these Genesis c. Loe they call them all Canonicall in one and the same sense although S. Augustine there instructeth the student of diuinitie whilest all were not yet generally receaued of the whole Church to preferre some before others Fulkes obiections Read the chapter afore where S. Augustine requireth seauen conditions in the student of Scripture before he be perfect
the Crosse and the Signes thereof it is euident that in your vsuall rayling agaynst dumbe Images Ar. 4. Pur. 20.21.22.460 2. Cor. 6. stockes and stones you do no more but vtter that you are no more of the auncient true Church then of our Church now which you denie to be the true Church S. Paule in déede saith that the Temple of God and Idolles can not agree togeather speaking of Christians that did draw with Infidels as receiuing of meate sacrificed to their Idolles such as now receiue of Caluins bread But that the true Temples of God and Images belonging to the same God agrée well together you can not denie but you must reuoke your owne confession made here of those auncient Temples of Christ And therefore you do but like your selfe to say I care not what your fathers called or counted Sacrilege But God our heauenly father cōmaunded vs to breake burne and destroy al your Idols and to deface al the monuments of them Deut. 12. And all the godly Patriarkes and Fathers both before Christes cōming and since haue giuen vs example hereof What els they gaue vs example to set vp Crosses you example to pull them downe You may roll in suche Rhetorike before fooles that receiue your absurde principles to wit that the Idols of the Paganes were Images of the Christians But when the simplest Catholike doth no more but denie your principle you are by and by non plus No syr but to auoyde prolixitie I could tell you playnely and at large who were your fathers in these spoyles that you haue made of Christes churches to wit the Donatistes the Arrians the Eutychians yea Iulianus Apostata yea and that you haue out-shot them all and left nothing to Antichrist him selfe but onely to fill vp the measure as I haue sufficiently touched cap. 8. pag. 128. And therefore neither will that serue which againe you say Pur. 341. Suche liuings as are appoynted vs by the Prince and the law we may enioy with a good conscience No syr it will not serue For you may remember the storie in S. Ambrose De Basilicis tradendis Ambr. li. 5. post epist 32. ep 33. He would dye rather then to deliuer the Churches to the Emperour and the Arrian Empresse his mother And so you enioy our Churches with as good a conscience as the Arrians should haue done at that time as you shal féele when you come in your course after your seniors before the iust iudge our mothers husband whose Dowries they be 22. Seruice Motiue 32. Article 6. The 22. Demaund is of the Seruice which Fulke in worde chalengeth no lesse then we saying here cap. 2. pag. 4. Constantinus buylded those Churches for our assemblies and Seruice and in the Cryptes also before that our assemblies were kept But in déede he confesseth that it was ours and reiecteth it accordingly so that I must stande here to defende it rather then to clayme it Pur. 377. His defence of their new Communion booke is this Whosoeuer were children of the true Church would neuer finde faulte with our Communion which can not be condemned by the worde of God and therefore careth not for the comparison of the custome of other men which whether they vsed the like or not in forme of words whith is not materiall so they vsed not other substance of matter except they did it besides the worde of God And yet it must be preiudiciall to our Masse booke not that the hooke was made since the Apostles time Ar. 21.38 Pur. 402.413 but that any peece was added since by certain Popes yea though the very same péeces be reteined in their cōmunion booke also Let al men therfore consider how iust the defence is that I made in this Demaund to wit that no péece be it neuer so new neither in the Masse booke nor in our other Seruice bookes is contrary to the old faith of the Apostles conteined in the word of God written or vnwritten yea the same in substance and cōmonly in forme of words also was in the Apostles and Fathers Churches The Primitiue Church had the same seruice that the church 〈◊〉 hath Let one example hereof be Prayer for the dead and that also in the Canon of the Masse as Fulke him selfe confesseth here at large cap. 3. pag. 16. to .21 And whatsoeuer he obiecteth against the Primitiue Church and vs for it saying they had it of the Diuell c. cap. 3. pag. 22. that it is against the Scriptures and contrary to the same Doctors them selues I haue answered all cap. 6. pag. 47. to 56. and cap. 8. pag. 133. to 134. and cap. 9. pag. 161. to 164. pag 193. to 214. Let another example be praying to Saintes as he also confesseth here cap. 3. pag 10. And what he obiecteth against the Faters and vs for it I aunswere cap. 6. and cap. 8. pag. 138. sauing one place of S. Augustines Ar. 55. vpon which he saith Note that no Sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs but prayer is a Sacrifice therfore it ought to be offered only to God Secondly that Martyrs were not called vpon in the time of the Sacrifice but onely named for remembraunce Cunningly noted as appeareth by these words of his in another place Aug. tract 84. in Ioa. De ve Ap. sermo 17. Non sic beatos Martyres c. We do not make such a commemoration of the blessed Martyrs as of other that rest in peace that we also pray for them but rather that they may pray for vs. Was this to be onely named for remembraunce Neither in the * Aug. ciui li. 22. ca 10. place that you alleage doth he say that they were not called vpon in the time of sacrifice but Non tamen a Sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur The Priest that sacrificeth Aug. Ciuit. li. 8. ca. 27. Offerimus domine pater praeclare maiestati tuae c. doth not inuocate them And what he meaneth by his inuocation that sacrificeth he declareth there afore saying Which of the faithfull euer heard the Priest standing at an Altar though also made vpon the holy body of a Martyr for Gods honor and seruice to say in the prayers or Canon Offero tibi Sacrificium Petre vel Paule vel Cypriane I offer sacrifice to thee O Peter or Paule or Cyprian But otherwise for praying to Martyrs S. Augustine is very playne in the same worke the same booke and almost the same chapter telling certaine Myracles one in a woman that prayed to the holy Martyr S. Steuē Aug. ci l. 2. ca. 8.9.10 in S. Augustines owne Church ad sanctum Martyrem orare perrexerat another in a poore man that prayed aloude to the twentie Martyrs in the same towne ad viginti Martyres clara voce orauit And such Myracles are done he saith by God at the Martyrs suite instance eis orantibus impetrantibus And therfore whether prayer be
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
and that no man for much more then a .1000 yeares together after the Apostles time either denied it Roff. in li. Aâ— Petrus fuerit Romae con Vellaeum Cochl de Petro Roma coÌ„ Velli Wald. li 2. Doct. ar 1. c. 7. tom 3. ca. 129. Cop. dial 1 ca. 15. or doubted of it Besides sundrie most manifest argumentes to proue it whereas the Wickleâ—istes and Protestants arguments against it which he saith can neuer be answered are the most ridiculous things that euer man heard Though Fulke bring not forth any one of them yet I haue answered the very best of them here Pag. 237. And most excellent authors among the Catholikes haue alreadie written whole Bookes of this question as Roffensis Cochleus besides Thomas Waldensis and many others that haue chapters of it in other bookes Howbeit the scripture also it selfe is plaine ynough in it if one be not too contentious where S. Peter himselfe doth say that he wrote his first Epistle in Rome calling it Babylon as I noted cap. 9. pag. 156. And for S. Paules being there which is ynough to proue the Apostolike Sée of that Church the Actes are most euident Act. 28. In so much that also Fulke himself after this maner to contrarie him selfe doth confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that the Churche of Rome was founded by the Apostles In which place also he graunteth that in the Fathers time it was an Apostolike Church howsoeuer now he would draw his necke out of the coller by denying Peter to haue bene there But be it that Peter was there he saith in his 2. shift except you proue Succession of doctrine and faith aswel as Succession of men your Succession is not worth a straw Yes sir in prouing the Succession of men onely we doe as much as the Fathers did vnlesse you will say that their doing also was not worth a strawe For a Succession of men there must be the Scriptures are plaine therein as the Fathers shewe But no companie sauing the Romanes companie can shew a Succession of men Therefore no companie but theirs is the Church In so much also that the Scripture and Fathers together doe say of that Succession and of that onely Ipsa est Petra Mat. 16. Aug. in Ps coÌ„t partem Donati quam non vincunt superbae inferorum portae That is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell doe not ouercome And your selfe with your master Caluin doe confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that it continued in the Apostles faith and sounde doctrine for the first .400 yeares which is ynough against you because you also confesse cap. 3. that within the same time in it was praying for the dead and many other pointes against your doctrine 45. Chaunging Moti 24. Article 11. Dem. 14. But that you shoulde not haue any such euasion I made my next Demaund expresly of that matter noting that the Romane Churche as it hath succession of men so also hath succession of doctrine and faith neuer to this day chaunging the doctrine and faith which it receiued of the Apostles Now what haue you to the contrarie Of S. Victor who excommunicated the Asians Ar. 47. I haue answered Dem. 28. that it is nothing else but your blasphemous audacitie to say that he chaunged from his predecessors and vsurped authoritie in that doing Touching also S. Boniface the third against whom you alleage the saying of his Predecessor S. Gregorie None of my Predecessors would vse this prophane title to call himselfe Vniuersall Bishop I haue answered Cap. 3. pag. 24. that you belie S. Boniface For neither he nor any since him no more then they before him vsed that title but the cleane contrarie title Seruus seruorum dei which S. Gregorie of humilitie did begin Thirdly you say that the same Gregorie as Hulderichus Bishop of Auspurge doth testifie was the first that compelled Priestes to liue vnmaried Which afterward when he saw the inconuenience he reuoked And so you destroy your own ensample for if he reuoked it then is not he one that made a chaunge from his Fathers faith You that will not beléeue all Antiquitie saying that Peter was at Rome will yet haue no man doubt but S. Gregorie saw such inconuenience in so shorte a time that six thousand Infantes were straight begotten by the fornications of onely Subdeacons yea and cruelly murdered yea and all their heades caste into one certaine poole and therefore found and taken vp by tale Witnesse of all this one that being Bishop of Auspurge wrote to Pope Nicolas the first who was dead 56. Cop. dial 1 cap. 22. yeares before this man was made Bishop He that will Laugh more at large at the fable let him reade M. Cope As for Priestes Mariage I noted cap. 3. pag. 12. cap. 6. pag. 43. How they counted Iouinian an Heretike and a monster long before S. Gregories time for allowing of it These are all the chaunges that you note in the Church of Rome vnlesse I must count this another where you note D. Allen to confesse Pur. 68. that the old vsage of the Church was first to set satisfaction and then to absolue though now of late to absolue before satisfaction hath bene more vsed Both maners haue bene alwayes vsed but the first of old more then the second and the second of late more then the first This saith D. Allen and it is euident to them that are skilfull in Antiquitie namely such as did not make their confession before they fell sore sicke they were absolued incontinently and did their Penaunce afterwards if they recouered Hereticall Bishoppes and Priestes were oftentimes receyued vppon cause by onely absolution without all satisfaction yea and permitted to continue in their honours also The Churches care both then and now was and is to haue all sinners truely contrite before absolution and that is sufficient before God Neuerthelesse suche as haue offended afore also are caused to doe their duetie accordingly A straunge matter that these Heretikes who haue quite taken all away should controll the Church although she also had taken all away howe muche lesse considering that she hath not taken any piece away but onely putteth that more often to the second place whiche she was wonte as it is a thing indifferent to put in the firste place more often and that according to her power to edifie and not to destroye seeing the people now so careles that rather then they will doe suche penaunce for satisfaction they will not come to confession and so dying without absolution goe to damnation and seeing withall that whereas satisfaction is no satisfaction vnlesse the partie bee firste in grace his owne contrition before was alone but nowe it hath the helpe of absolution whiche of it selfe conferreth grace that nowe his satisfaction muche more probablye then before is not baren And therefore muche lesse satisfaction nowe like to be more auayleable then muche more before and
vs to death for it Ioan. 19. to say we be no Martyrs but Traytors Euen as the perfidious Iewes made as though our Master could not be king ouer our Soules but by Treason agaynst Cesar So the Heretikes say of his Vicare In suche casting of their blasphemous mouthes into heauen they doe but consent to the wicked that shedde the Saintes bloud Those whom Gods Church hath declared to be Saintes it is not Fulke nor his baudy Bale that with all their durt can blotte them out of the booke of life If S. Liberius were once an Arrian might he not be canonized for a Saint repenting afterwards Was not S. Augustine once a Manichée Yet the trueth is as D. Sanders sheweth at large that he neuer was an Arrian nor neuer saide of any so to be but onely by compulsion to haue subscribed to the Arrians against his owne conscience or rather not to the Arrians but onely to the deposition of Athanasius So one or two of the Doctors wrote béeing deceyued with the false rumour that the Heretikes had spredde before the trueth was set out in the Ecclesiasticall Historie But where was your witte when you alleaged against Canonization the example of burning Hermannus the Heretikes boanes who neuer was canonized by commaundement of Bonifacius 8. in Ferraria where they had worshipped him twentie yeres Apocryphally You say king Henry the sixt should haue bene canonized but onely for lacke of money ynough When you bring your authors you shall receiue your answere We can not proue you say that the Pope and our Church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs To make holydayes of them to name them among the Saints in Diptychis in the holy Canon of the Masse is not this proufe sufficient of their canonization yea and that the Primitiue Church which did so canonize them was not your church because you haue taken away their Dyptica and their dayes of S. Laurence I say and of so many other most glorious Martyrs which had suche canonicall memories in the Primitiue Churche also Yea and would take away the Apostles dayes also if you might haue your will as you vttered here in the 22. Dem. in speaking against all dayes of Saintes O but you haue a better waye to know Saints to wit they whose names are written in the booke of life You might do well to set out that booke in print that we might correct our Callendar after it If you haue not the booke it selfe haue you any more certayne way to know who are written in it then is the Churches declaration Or do you allow her testimonie in canonizing some Scripture for Gods word Saint Fulke by his ovvne industrie reiect it in canonizing some men for Gods Saintes But it is great iniurie to the Saintes of God that they be not so accounted while they liue Belike you would be called Saint Fulke that out of hand But for ought that I know you must tarry vntill you extend your doctrine and certaintie of Predestination farther For as yet you teach no more but that your selfe must and do knowe your selfe to be predestinate and so may canonize your selfe for a Saint for euer when you teach that others must know as much of you then blame them if they also do not canonize you And in the meane time blame not the Pope for canonization nor cōpare it to the making of Gods which the Heathen vsed séeing it is no greater a matter then your selfe can doe nor the title greater then men aliue should haue and specially séeing Iohn Hus and Ierome of Prage haue as you say as solemne feastes in your Bohemians Callender as Peter and Paule No man els néedeth to take the paynes your selfe build vp againe with one hand that which you pulled downe with the other 47 Communion of Saintes The next Demaund is about The Cōmunion of Saintes Moti 43. that is to say of all Christians to shew our Countreymen to what a paucitie and against what a multitude they ioyne them selues and that in the matter of saluation or damnation So it is that Fulke doth brag of the most part of Europe here in the 9. Dem. and cap. 9. pag. 177. naming England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia Spayne Italy I denie not but there are Heretikes in al these Countreys at the least in corners And therefore if all Heretikes be of your religion and communion that you may bragge as you doe But the trueth is that euen those Heretikes also which be of your Religion out of England if any be for I doubt whether any will allow a woman to be head of the Church but only your selues to name no other of your peculiar articles yet are they not I say of your communion nor you of theirs as appeareth euidently by this that neither in a Generall Councell if you should hold any you haue authoritie one ouer another no more then two distinct Realmes with their seuerall kings haue authoritie one ouer the other in worldly matters But Catholikes in the meane time whersoeuer they are they be al of one Religion of one communion Therfore to giue the ignorant some light in these matters as S. Augustine said often against the Donatists Aug. de vn Eccl. 3. De pastorib ca. 8. so do I. I say two things first that in all Nations parts of Nations where any of al these Sects are found Catholikes also are found dayly do encrease One example for all of our owne Countrie best knowen to our Countreymen where although they be turned out of all their Churches as in very few others yet the multitude of the people is knowen to be stil Catholike in hart of our communion though drawen against their wills to the contrarie yea and innumerable of them recōciled as all in maner would be who séeth not if they were at their owne libertie Secondly I say that Catholikes are in many Nations and partes of Nations where none at all of the Sectes are or so fewe that they are not to be counted of as in all Spayne all Portugall all Italie most partes of Fraunce many partes of Germanie c. Wherby any man may easily conceiue that the Catholikes at this day in Europe are incomparably more then all the Sectaries put together encreasing withall euery day specially by meanes of Seminaries and Iesuites for the purpose and they diminishing How much more adding to these the Catholikes that be in Africa and in Asia among the old named Christians of those parts And more againe infinitely adding yet the innumerable new Christians in the farder partes of them both conuerted within these fiftie yeres by the Iesuites And agayne the like in Nouo orbe vnder the king of Spayne by the Friers in so much that many yeares since it is written of that alone Surius ad An. do 1558. Tot autem hominū millia in illo nouo orbe Christi c. So
neyther hath priuilege nor authoritie and yet out it commeth by permission at the least to make forsooth a face and showe of somewhat for a time and if after it chaunce to be of some Catholike dasht out of countenaunce then the shame to be no mans but onely Fulkes All which considered I doubted a while whether it were good to returne him an answer or no least peraduenture I should but lease my labour rather to expect yet somewhat longer whether any do answer my Motiues or Demaunds as by aduise out of England I haue nowe more then this tweluemonth wayted therevpon Yet my resolution hath bene séeing that abundans cautio non nocet to put out my hande a litle and take of his vizard that being playnly discouered euery man may beholde and abhorre his foule fauour and beare me witnesse that he had bene better to kéepe in not onely those nine yeres and two yeres but also for euer following rather the ensamples of those other two brethren mentioned in his preface to the Reader of whom the one purposed to haue answered the booke of Purgatory himself but afterward vndertooke rather the printing of Fulkes answere the other learnedly began the answering of it but was he knoweth not how letted from the accomplishing of the same So hath Satan hitherto hindred the setting abrode of this answere sayth he of his owne but God hath now at length brought it forth I doubt not he addeth but to his glory and the confusion of satan in his members the Papistes As I also doubt not but God in déede hath brought it forth to his glory and to the confusion of heresie so that satan had done more politikely to haue hindred still if he could the setting abrode of it such stuffe it conteineth Better stuffe we should haue had if better had they had Well séeing that M.D. Allen is otherwise and better occupied I who haue already succéeded him in his Articles and do owe vnto him at one worde all duetie both for the publike and namely for my priuate will here with the helpe of God laye so much of Fulks wares open out of both his bookes that although my meaning is directly against his first booke yet my treatise shall appeare to be a iust reply to both his bookes First therefore I will shew briefly how he confesseth that out of the true Church is no saluation See the contentes more at large in the ende of this booke to this ende that when as in my processe it shall be manifest that he and his felowes are out of the true Church and that we haue the true Church both they may clearely sée in what case they stand and their felowes may looke in time vnto their reconciliation Secondly I will shewe somewhat more at large for what space he graunteth the true Church to haue continued in sight and knowledge of the world and what persons and companies to haue bene of it to the ende that neither he nor no man else being able to proue that we agrée not with those times and persons in substance of religion or haue gone out of the vnitie of their communion it may euidently be séene that we likewise at this time be of the same true Church and he with his fellowes to be without the true Church because they be out of our Church Thirdly for as much as on the other side he could not denie but that he and his agrée not with the saide true Church I will shew how he is fayne to holde that the true Church may erre and that he chargeth it then with the same errours with the which he chargeth vs now to the end that thou mayst sée that for all those surmised errours he hath not any iust cause to denie vs the true Church which he giueth to them that with vs were in the same errours Nay I will further declare in the fourth place that he chargeth them with diuers errors wherewith he neither can nor doth charge vs that it may much more appeare that we haue the true Church nowe if they so much worse then we had the true Church then Fiftly I wil report the reason for which by his saying they had the true Church then notwithstanding their errors to the end that where thou shalt sée it to be such a reason as agréeth to vs nowe as well thou mayst perceyue that he must no lesse graunt vs the true Church now After this I will note briefly his zeal towards Caluin and others that in déede are or at least be vnfaignedly thought of him to be of his Church at this time how that he can not in any wise beare any thing to be spoken agaynst them whereas yet he not onely can beare but also him selfe speaketh so much agaynst the olde auncient Church and the members thereof And in consideration hereof my Catholike zeale must do no lesse as béeing in déede with all other Catholikes of this time a member of the very same auncient Church in olde time but answere for the said Church shewing in euery particuler how vnworthily and vniustly he chargeth it with erring Which I will in like maner do for the Church also of later times defending it likewise against all his like accusations of it Seuenthly I will declare howe that séeing manifestly the true Church Councels Fathers and all other euidences of Christian Religion to make cléerely against him and his he is faine and nothing abasht at the matter to take exception against all by the bare name and colour of Onely Scripture and therein behaueth him selfe so boldly as if the holy Scripture were as manifestly with him as all the other are manifestly against him Where also because like an other Phormio homo confidens he prouoketh vs to a disputation of Scripture I will make him a reasonable offer Eightly I will most cléerely shew how that not withstanding all these great crakes and bolde facinges of his he hath not for all that in these two bookes alleaged so much as one text of Scripture that maketh any whit against vs. And to that purpose I will aunswer all his allegations first concerning Onely Scripture to be credited next concerning the Church whether it can erre and whether we haue it or they then concerning Purgatory and last of all concerning all other matters that any where he mentioneth by the way Ninthly I will likewise shew whereas he maketh himselfe so sure of Scripture that he holdeth the testimonies of Councels and Fathers to be no confirmation of trueth and alleageth them sometimes notwithstanding although because of his so holding I might neglect those allegations yet I will shewe I say that of all which he alleageth no one neither expoundeth any Scripture nor beareth any other testimonie with him against vs. Which wil be a plaine demonstration of that which I proposed here aboue in the second Chapter to wit that wée haue still the true Church because we still so throughly and entirely agrée
necessarie to saluation that a Christian man should so beleeue the Catholike Church because the Church may erre Agayne in the same place But to beleeue al and euery thing that the Catholike Church by common consent doth mainteine is no Article of our fayth and therfore not necessarie to saluation The second part That the true Church did also erre and that in the same poyntes as we now do erre in j. Where he chargeth them with many poynts together Now further that the true Church did also in dede erre first in the same poyntes wherein our Church now erreth as they charge it thus he saith Ar. 35. Si patrem f. Beelzebub vocauerun◠quanto magis domesticos eius◠Matt. x. Many abuses and corruptions were entred into the Churche of Christe immediatly after the Apostles time which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist By Antichrist he meaneth God forgiue him his blasphemie the vicar of Christ him selfe and so consequently by that preparatiue he meaneth such poynts of the Popes religion as are found agaynst the Protestantes in antiquitie Where to minister him some light by the way if it may please God to open his eyes let him consider that he must confesse no lesse Infra c. 11. cont 8. yea much more that the Arian Sabellian Nestorian and infinit other old Heresies detested now of both our parts were a preparatiue for Antichrist and therfore séeing that Bonifacius the third and the other Popes after him haue not receiued those confessed heresies that it followeth necessarily therof that the Popes are not Antichrist But that I stray not further from my matter but rather reserue euery thing to his proper place he cōmeth else where to particularities and saith Pu. 419. And this was a great corruption of those auncient times that they did not always weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse What any thing without exception Go too then and name somewhat for ensample So they tooke the signe of the crosse from the Valentinians What more Oblations for the days of death and byrth of the Gentiles Foorth a Gods name Prescript times of fasting and vnmeasurable extolling of Sole life in the ministers of the Church from the Manichees Tacianistes and Montanistes And yet what more Prayer for the dead of the Montanistes Forth agayne Purgatory fire of the Origenistes Say on still Yea Ieronym was almost fallen into the heresie of Tertullian in condemning seconde mariage Once more to ease that stomacke Yea euen the name of sacrifice which was commonly vsed for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke vp of the Gentiles All these eyght poyntes he so noteth in the Fathers of Gods Church together in one place Againe in an other place after the sayings of Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus alleaged Ar. 60. The other writers of later yeres saith he we are not afrayd to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayers for the dead and diuers superstitious superfluous Ceremonies And that to the same they were no lesse addicted then we are he confesseth plainly where he graunteth that they accounted the contrarie for no better then heresie Ar. 44.45 46. You may perchaunce saith he note the names of them that preaching the truth of our doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world for Heretikes And a litle after I wil not dissemble that which you thinke the greatest matter Well then confesse the truth Aerius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they count for an error Also he taught that fasting dayes are not to be obserued if he espied the superstition of fasting dayes and reproued it that was no error at all And who els Iouinian affirmed that virginitie was no better then mariage which if it be well vnderstood is no error at all And if he taught further that suche as could not conteine though they had vowed virginitie should neuerthelesse be maried Moreouer if he taught that fasting abstinence from certaine meates and other bodily exercise of them selues profite litle it was no error he saith and yet S. Ieronyme was a most bitter enemie vnto Iouinian Any more Last of all Vigilantius wrote agaynst Inuocation of Saintes superstition of Reliques and other Ceremonies Him Ieronym reproueth or rather rayleth on him Modestly for his reasons are nothing worth that he hath against him Therefore howsoeuer Ieronym esteemed him in his rage if he had none other opinions contrary to the trueth we doubt not to acknowledge Vigilantius as many godly and learned Bishops of his time did for a true preacher and reprehender of that superstition whervnto Ieronym was to much addict He said afore that he would not dissemble and yet you sée his ifs and Hierome alone against many godly and learned Bishoppes Therefore to make it yet more playne howe in clearing these Heretikes he chargeth the Fathers I must report what he hath likewise in other places ij As touching Vigilantius and inuocation of Saintes by it selfe As where D. Allen said Pur. 306 310. So their citing out of S. Ambrose for the improuing of the inuocation of holy Saintes is no more but an abuse of the simples ignorance knowing well that he and all other of that time did practise prayers both often to all holy Martyrs and sometimes peculiarly to such whom for patronage they did especially choose of deuotion amongest the rest To this he answereth Honorably Touching Ambrose which was sodenly made a Bishop before he was a perfect Christian if some steppes of Hethenish Inuocation or Rhetoricall apostrophees and prosopopees appeare to be in him and some other about his time yet was not that generally receiued of all the Church in his time Also where the question is asked Ar. 39. Whether men began sodenly to require the helpe of Saintes in heauen He answereth Whether sodenly or by litle and litle man were brought to suche superstition that they required helpe of Saintes it maketh litle matter yet it is to be thought that it grewe vp as other errors by litle and litle And S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the ende can define nothing in certayne Howe the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Pur. 315.316.317 Although he can not define Howe yet neuerthelesse sayth D. Allen he nothing doubteth but intercession maye profitably be made to them and that also for the deceased Wherevnto Fulke sayth agayne Augustine in hys booke De cura pro mortuis agenda is full of doubtes that he knoweth not hym selfe what to determine but that he wyll holde the common opinions receaued in his time And
and by the noblenes of the persons it is notoriously knowen And euen no better stuffe in Caluines Institutions find they that take the like paynes to examine them and are of iudgement to discerne although you trust so much therein and say I would to God that al Papists in England would reade that booke and pray vnfainedly Pur. 45â— that God would open their eyes that they may see the truth if it be taught therein No syr not so that is not the way There is no booke of Heresie Iudaisme nor Mahometisme but it would ouerthrowe or shake the common sort and therfore to reade them and pray that is not the way to truth no more then to swalow poyson and pray is the way to get or kepe health of the body You should rather haue exhorted men that can to reade the auncient Fathers works or such partes of their works as are Institutions or summes of our faith as S. Augustines Enchiridion ad Laurentium also De heresibus ad quoduultdeum the bookes De fide ad Petrum and De Ecclesiasticis dogmatibus Vincensis Lirinensis his generall rules as it were preseruations against all heresies with diuerse other or because we speake of bookes written at this time specially and aboue all others the Councell of Trent where it intreateth of doctrine But your zeale is to Caluine his doctrine as here you haue shewed it is not to the Fathers and their doctrine no nor to the doctrine of the whole Churche whiche also your selfe confesse to be such For Caluine erreth not you say D. Allen slaundereth and belyeth him but the Fathers and the whole Church haue erred Well touching Caluin Melancthon and such others you shall I trust in time conuenient heare D. Allen answere to you for him selfe My purpose here is onely by this ensample of your zeale towardes your Fathers to shewe a litle of my zeale for our Catholike Fathers though not with such bigge wordes and lowde exclamations against you as you haue done against D. Allen yet with suche truth and reason as euen your selfe also if God of his mercy wil take from you that stoute heart may well confesse that you are fully satisfied ¶ The first parte Concerning the errors that he layde ca. 3. par 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. And because I diuide this matter into thrée partes to witte the errors that you lay both to them and to vs the errors that you lay to them and not to vs and finally the errors that you lay to vs or to the Church of later times and not to them As concerning the first sorte which I collected in the third Chapter I answere playnly and briefly at once that they are no errors But you will proue it let vs sée how j. Of the Crosse and Images They tooke the signe of the Crosse from the Valentinians Pur. 419.416 you say And a litle before in the same Paragraph I could proue out of Irenaeus and Epiphanius that the first that brought in estimation the figure of the Crosse and Images were the Valentinians and Carpocratians And a litle after Carpocrates as Irenaeus doth testifie was a great admirer of Philosophie in so much that with the Images which he made of Christ he ioyned the Images of Pythagoras Plato and Aristotle Elsewhere you quote also the places saying to vs Ar. 22. Of the Valentinians you learned to haue in price the signe of the Crosse and to abuse the places of Scripture for the same superstitious vse as God forbid that I should reioyce but in the Crosse of Christ c. Irenaeus li. 1. ca. 1. Gal. 6. Epiphan li. 1. Tom. 2. heraes 31. And there afore To make the Images of Christ and the Apostles and to cense them you learned of the heretikes called Gnostici and Capocratitae Epiphan li. 1. Tom. 2. in the Preface and li. 1. Tom. 2. haer 27. And Irenaeus li. 1. cap. 23. I answere that the Reader may wonder at your audacitie that those authors there speake not a worde of the figure nor signe nor vse of the Crosse they tell how those heretikes in their fables inuented .30 Gods which they called Aeones and in them two or thrée Christes and one of the Christes they called amongst other names stauros or Crux And to that Christ they racked that saying of Sainct Paule with others as also other Scriptures they wrested to their other Aeones euen so properly as you alleage this same Crosse of theirs against our Crossing as well might those Christes be alleaged against our Christ And as properly agayne doe you against our Images alleage the Images of those heretikes Epiph. li. â—… Tom. 2. in praef Haer. 21. Simonianorum Iren. li. 1. câ—… 1. in fine Simon Magus of whom those Gnostici did beginne gaue to his Disciples his owne Image In specie Iouis In forme of Iupiter and also the Image of hys strumpet Helena in figura Mineruae in forme of Minerua Et adorant has hi qui ab ipso decepti sunt and these Images doe they adore As if the Lutheranes should haue and adore the Images of Luther and of Katherine his woman and a Catholike note them for it that were you know a sore argument for vs to answere Likewise the Carpocratians who also were Gnostici had the Images of Iesus Epiph. li. 1. To. 2. in pr. Haer. 27. Iren. lib. 1. cap. 24. and withall of certayne Philosophers Cum quibus Philosophis etiam alias Imagines Iesu collocant c. With which Philosophers they set vp those Images of Iesus and then adore them and celebrate the mysteries of the Paganes For hauing set vp these Images they do afterward keepe the rites of the Paganes And what be the rites of the Paganes other then sacrifice and so forth Which Epiphanius addeth vpon those words of Irenée Et reliquam obseruationem circa eas similiter vt Gentes faciunt They set them together with the Images of the Philosophers of the world and kepe about them the other rites like as the Paganes do to their Idols of whom we reade in the times of persecution that the worship which they would haue the Martyrs to giue to their Idols was partly sacrifice partly Incense which whosoeuer did were called Sacrificati and Thurificati And so this maner of those heretikes maketh euen as much agaynst our Images and agaynst the worship that we giue to God in the place where they are as the Samaritanes example maketh against the worshipping of our Lord because with him they worshipped other Gods 4. Reg. 17. as it is written They both worshipped our Lord and also their owne goddes withall Or rather maketh lesse against our doing because we agrée not with those heretikes in neither side neither making Gods of the Philosophers Images nor yet of Iesus his Images but onely of Iesus himselfe who is God in déede aboue all and of all to be blessed for euermore Ar. 22.
And the same answere take you to that you obiect to vs in like sort againe in one of the places aboue noted saying Of the Colliridianes you learned to make Images of the virgin Mary and worship them and her with offering of candles c. as they did of cakes c. Epiph. li. 3. Haer. 79. These Collyridianes heresie was this that certayne women at a certaine solemne time of the yere certaine dayes together did decke a square table and vpon it Offerebant panem c. They did offer a cake in the name of Mary as if Mary were eyther a God or a Priest and women her ministers to sacrifice for her So saith Epiphanius confuting thē at large and shewing that women could neuer sacrifice and that none but one is to be adored as God though our Lady be moste honorable Sit in honore Maria Pater filius Spiritus sanctus adoretur Reuera sanctum erat corpus Mariae non tamen Deus My purpose is here but to answere else if any man desire testimonies for our Images for our vse aboue them he may reade D. Saunders booke and many other of that matter It is inough for me here that Fulke him selfe hath acknowledged Supra ca. 3. pag. Tertullian to hearse it as a thing then vndoubted that our crossing of our selues which is a making of Imagesa nd a great religion to the same commeth vnto vs from the Apostles by tradition And because we are thus come from Images to the Sainctes let vs heare what more you haue against the Fathers and vs in that behalfe ij Of Inuocation of Sainctes and worshipping of their Reliques You remember since the thirde Chapter that by your owne report the true Church counted Vigilantius an heretike for denying the Inuocation of Saintes and the worshipping of their Reliques of which and of their Images againe Supra pag the case is all one But now you will proue that the Churches opinion rather was heresie for thus you say to vs for that matter Ar. 21. Of the Ossenes you receiued the superstition of Reliques for they vsed to take the spittle and other filth from the bodyes of Marthys and Marthana which were of the seede of Elxai that is In peregrinatione religion ergo great Sainctes with them and vsed them to cure diseases as Erasmus witnesseth at Caunterbury were kept the clowtes that Thomas Becket did occupie to wipe of his sweat to blow his nose on which were kissed as holy Reliques and thought also to be holsome for sicke folkes Epiph. li. 1. Tom. 1. Haer. 19. This againe maketh as much against our Reliques as the Valentinians Crosse against our Crosses and the Carpocratians Images against our Images Epiphanius telleth that this Elxai was in Traianus time a great master of that sect and that Marthys his kinswoman and Marthana his sister In the Ossenes countrey were adored in their life time as Gods Pro dijs adorabantur c. Because they were of the said Elxai his stocke quarum etiam sputa c. which womens spittle also and other filthes of their bodies the foresaide heretikes in that countrey tooke to them in auxilium videlicet morborum as to cure diseases nihil tamen efficiebant but yet without any effect at all As for Erasmus he knoweth nowe if he did not afore what it is to haue Religion in dirision and you may remember from whose body were caried to the sicke Sudaria vel Semicinctia Act. 19. and their diseases and euill sprites went awaye therewith Open your mouth also against those Napkins and call them likewise Clowtes for sweat and for the nose Or rather doe you applie them with good counsaile to your disease also Chris To. ◠De vita Bab contra Gentiles as S. Chrysostome applieth them and the Reliques of the Martyr Babylas together vnto the Paganes declaring thereby most excellently that Christ must néedes be God séeing he coulde geue such passing power to the clothes and bones of his seruaunt Ar. 22. You say moreouer to vs Of the Cayanes you learned to call vpon Angels Epiph. li. 1. To. 3. haere 38. Those heretikes worshipped Cain Iudas such like litle estéemed Abel such others yea and some of them also Christ him selfe They said also that none could be saued vntill they had gone through all sinnes And therfore committed all abhominations referred them to this Angel that Angel with this inuocation O tu Angele vtor tuo opere O tu potestas ago tuā actionem O thou such an Angell I worke now thy worke O thou such a power I now do thy actiō And this with them was called perfecta cognitio Epip Haer. 26. 21. 27. euen doctorship it selfe They agréed in this with the Simoniani Gnostici and Carpocratite who in their beastlines directed the like most horrible inuocations to God him selfe whom they termed Patrem vniuersorum Which is as substantiall an argument against all inuocation of God as the other is against the inuocation of Angells Simon Magus was you know in the Apostles time He inuented many heauens and many names of Angells placing these in this heauen and those in that heauen with sundrie sacrifices for men to offer by them that they might so bée brought at length to the Father of all And that none might otherwise be saued Epip Haer. 21. except he learned hunc mysticum ductum this mysticall passage and howe to offer suche Sacrifices by those Angels to the Father of all Against these fables it is that S. Paule instructeth the Ephesians and Colossians in those two Epistles so like in wordes also Colos 2. that no man deceyue them with those inuocations of Angelles Religion non tenens caput not holding the heade Iesus Christ But otherwise holding hym for the heade that wée are brought to the Father by the holye Angells as by Christes ministers Hebr. 1. who séeth not in the Scriptures in infinite places And so doth the Churche make all her petitions all through Christ our Lorde Per Christum dominum nostrum to none shée commendeth her otherwyse neyther in heauen nor in earth so doe we all praye and desyre to be prayed for one of another Apoc. 1. Apo. 4. v. 5 5. ver 6. with Heb. 1 ver 14. Apo. 1. ver 16.20 Heb. 3. ver 1. Apo. 19.22 Apoc. 3. and so prayed S. Iohn saying Grace and peace to you from God the Trinitie and from the seuen Spirites that are before his throne and from Iesus Christ according to his humanitie putting Christ in the last place that he myght so more hansomely adde the rest which he had to saye there of him And this in that verye booke out of which the Protestantes abuse two places against the worshipping of Angells forgetting also where in the same booke God doth promyse to make the obstinate Iewes to come and to adore before the feete of one Angell Et
wel be more remisse therin though yet she kepeth those Ceremonies still Aug. ep 86 Reade S. Augustine ad Casulanum of those matters where also besides this you shall finde also another generall reason according to the diuine wisdome of that most Ecclesiastical doctor to wit that it sufficeth if the Church haue vnitie of faith as it were intus in membris inwardly in her limmes and that she wel may withall haue diuersitie of obseruations as it were varietatem in veste varietie in her queenely garment according to the Psalme Psal 44. Which he speaketh for diuersitie of Ceremonies in sundry places at one time but it serueth for the like diuersitie in one place at sundry times as it is euident As for your boldnes with the Fathers for their Liturgies pronouncing that vndoubtedly they chaunged the auncient truth into their owne lately receiued errors Proc. apud Claud. de Sainctes praef in Liturg. or else why were they not content with the olde forme Proclus Bishop of Constantinople about a thousand yeres agoe answereth your Why telleth you that S. Basill and S. Chrysostome did no more but abridge the Liturgie of S. Iames the Apostle which thrée Liturgies the Councell in Trullo also doth acknowledge and that vpon iuste cause Can. 32. But that with errors they corrupted eyther it or any other forme which was vsed before them if any man be so farre gone so to thinke vpon your light worde for all the most renowmed credite of those Fathers let the studious of truth notwithstanding take the paynes to conferre those Liturgies and they shall easily be able of their owne inspection to controll you Supra pag. 21. as I also before in the third Chapter by playne demonstration disproued you for the same and namely in the very same article that forced you to this absurde and shameles shift v. Of Sacrifice and for the dead Now are we come to your next accusation of the auncient Church concerning Sacrifice concerning the dead The name of Sacrifice Pur. 419. which they coÌ„monly vsed for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke vp of the Gentiles so you say but you proue it not You might as well say that they or the Apostles had it of the Gentiles to name that Sacrifice which Christ offered vpon the Crosse No syr they named it so because it was so and therfore Christ also said not This is I that was borne of the virgine though that were true but This is my body vpon the one Matt. 26. and This is my bloud vpon the other The Apostle also for the same cause saying of him that commeth therevnto vnworthily not that he is guyltie of Christ though that be true 1. Cor. 11. but that he is guyltie of his body and of his bloud because it is such a celebration of his death Wherevpon if you knew what is the sacrificing of a liue thing you should sée that how properly he was sacrificed on the Crosse in an open maner euen as properly he is sacrificed here in a mysticall maner The same Apostle therefore agayne saying that we haue an a Heb. 13. Altar to eate of which place your blindnesse b Pur. 45â— alleageth against this Sacrifice and also calling it c 1. Cor. 10 The table of our Lorde in that forme of speache as he calleth c 1. Cor. 10 The table of the diuels the sacrifice of the Gentiles and the Leuiticall sacrifices likewise the Leuiticall c 1. Cor. 10 Altar Yet you can not find d Pur. 200 289. one word nor one syllable in the Scripture of any Sacrifice instituted by Christ at his last Supper Whereof we shall say more Cap. 10. Dem. 24. Purgatorie But to go forwarde with you to your accusation first of Purgatorie and afterward of Purgatorie fire To proue that Purgatory came of the Philosophers as al most notable heresies did Pur. 416. Tertul. de anima cap 31.32 you alleage out of Tertullian De anima that all Philosophers which graunted the soules immortalitie assigned three places for the soules departed heauen hell and a third place of purifying This argument proueth as well that heauen and hell and the Immortalitie of the soule had their originall of the Philosophers Howbeit also to report the truth there is no word of any third place of purifying but onely that such Philosophers made two sortes of Receptacles to wit Supernas mansiones for Philosophers soules onely and Inferos for all other soules and that about the first they did varie for Plato placed it in aethere Aerius in aëre the Stoikes circa lunam This is all Againe you proue out of Irenéeus that Purgatorie came of Carpocrates the Heretike Iren. li. 1. cap. 24. because he inuented a kinde of Purgatorie and proued it out of that place of S. Mathew Thou shalt not come forth vntil thou hast payd the vttermost farthing Mat. 5. euen as the Papistes do By this argument againe you will winne much honestie Epiph. li. 1. To. 2. Haer. 27. Tertul. de anima c. 17 Ireneus and after him Epiphanius as also Tertullian in your owne booke De anima do write that the Carpocratians helde that a man must wallow in aâ—l the filthe of sinne that is in this world before he can come to life euerlasting and therefore if he haue missed any sinne his soule is reuersed into a body and so againe and againe vntill he haue fulfilled all And for this purpose Iesus they say vsed this Parable of agreeing with the aduersarie in the way Matt. 5. c. Corpus enim dicunt esse carcerem c. For that prison they say is the body and that which he saith Thou shalt not go out thence vntill thou hast payed the last farthing they interprete as if the soule should be turned ouer by certayne Angels from body to body semper quoadvsque in omni omnino operatione quae in mundo est fiat Continually euen vntill it haue bene in all and euery acte of this world vt nihil amplius relinquatur saith Epiphanius ad nefarium quicquam faciendum so that nothing remayne that is abhominable but it is fulfilled Purgatorie fire Pur. 419.418 You goe forward and say that they tooke Purgatorie fire of the Origenistes and the name of Purgatorie of certayne Mediators who about S. Augustines time would accorde Origens error with the erroneous practise of the church For it was Origen that brought in the fire also and that he would buylde as the Papists do See here ca. xij of Christes damnation temporall according to Caluine and as he had better reason then the Papistes haue out of the 1. Cor. 3. This you say but you proue it not Origens error was that hell fire is not an euerlasting fire but onely a temporall fire which should in time purge not onely them that had ended their liues in most horrible sinnes but also the diuels
praye you syr is all Montanisme that Tertullian hath in his Booke De anima and in so many other Bookes which he wrote beyng a Montanist then what article of our Créede almost is not Montanisme Euen in those fewe lynes that you cite he hath Immortalitie of the soule Resurrection of the flesh and that which is his scope in the same place to wit for you séeme not to vnderstande it the soules suffering in her betweene this and the Resurrection If otherwise therefore some be trueth though some other bée Montanisme what shoulde you haue done but to looke in Epiphanius in Augustine and such others what were the heresies of Montanus and not finding prayer for the dead amongst them to haue refrained your rashnes You knew this well inough therfore notwithstanding your bragges to proue it c. you confesse that it is but your owne lyght suspicion Pur. 417. saying And therfore it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes added to the abuse in the Church afore also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead wherof Tertullian maketh mētion in his bookes De Castitate De Monogamia which were both written to heretikes of his secte and by those prayers laboureth to proue his Montanisme to wit that Second mariages are not lawfull And againe And therefore it may well be Pur. 263. that all that Tertullian speaketh of prayers and oblations for the dead was onely in the conuenticles of the Montanistes All in Tert. is Montanisme that Cypr. doth not mention And this coniecture you say seemeth the more probable not because it is by any imputed to Montanus but because Cyprian which was afterward a Catholike Byshop in the same Citie where Tertullian some time had lyued maketh no mention of prayers for the deade A goodly cause and yet in déede Cyprian maketh such mention thereof as D. Allen alleageth him Pur. 239. Infra pag. that your selfe doe say there This place of Cyprian hath more collour but yet not so cleare for Purgatorie as M. Allen would seeme to make it And when you haue all done you sticke fast in the lyme But this by the waye Againe you vtter your suspition Pur. 419. saying Finally it appeareth that the faithfull in Tertullians time c. allowed no Prayers for the dead And yet of this least for lacke of courage so great a verse shoulde geue vs so much as a fillip though you haue bene so vncertaine in your premisses you must néedes be certaine in your conclusion notwithstanding and say to vs Therefore Aerius was not the first that helde our opinion although Epiphanius and Augustine say it neuer so muche but Montanus before him was the first that helde your opinion throughly against the Catholikes of his time Oblations for the dead And so much of prayers for the dead But because Aerius denied not onely the profite of them but also of oblations for the dead and was no lesse for that also condemned of the Church you must take paynes to quit him of that heresie likewise and to charge the Church rather that condemned him yea the Church long before he was borne Thus then you say speaking of the times of Tertullian Montanus before him Pur. 417.418.419 The Church then had oblations for the dead by peruerse emulation of the Gentils and yet they were but oblations of thanks giuing You go about to proue it a litle after saying And that the practise of the Churche for oblations for the dead at the yerely day of their death were taken from the Gentiles it appeareth by this that Tertullian counteth them of all one origen to witte of the Apostles tradition with the oblations pro Natalitijs that is for the birth days And if this be not inough Beatus Rhemanus you say a Papist and a great antiquary doth confesse it affirming that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels whiche he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon tradition of the Apostles were abrogated After this you be bolde to crowe agaynst those auncient times and to say amongst many other corruptions which they tooke of the Gentiles and Heretikes So they tooke oblations for the dayes of death and birth of the Gentiles He is a poore antiquarie which knoweth not what Natalitia were in olde time and still are to wit the dayes of Martyrs Natalitia so called because they were then after many sore pangs deliuered out of their mother the militant Churches wombe and borne vnto the life ioy of the world to come Which mother of theirs and ours vsed therfore alwayes and stil vseth Ioan. 6. for ioy that a man is borne to heauen to offer from yere to yere vpon the dayes of their Martyrdome the oblation or sacrifice of the Altar For any other of her children she offereth also the same oblation vpon the day of his death and so forth vpon his yeres Mindeday yere by yere but not with such ioy but rather mourning with them and for them to get them comfort knowing that though they also be borne into the worlde to come yet it may be crying for a time as all children into this world and not laughing by and by as the glorious Martyrs And these two sortes are the oblations that Tertullian speaketh of saying Oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitijs Tertul. de Coro mil. Cypr. Epi. 37.34 anima die facimus We make oblations for the dead and for the byrthes of Martyrs vpon their yeres day S. Cyprian likewise We celebrate the passions and dayes of Martyrs with an yerely commemoracion We celebrate oblations and sacrifices for their commemorations And in See Molanus de Martyrolog◠ca. xv after Martyrol vsuardi Aug. in ps 118. in res all Martyrologies you may sée them called Natalitia or Natales S. Paulinus hath left verses that he wrote ten yeres together vpon the Natalis of S. Felix S. Augustine shewing that the olde persecutors could not hurt the Church but rather that they did much good agaynst their willes amongst other vtilities as that the whole earth is clad in purple by the bloud of Martyrs Heauen is all in flowers by the garlandes of Martyrs Churches are decked with the Relikes of Martyrs Often cures are done by the merites of Martyrs hath also to our purpose and saith Insignita sunt tempora Natalitijs Martyrum Times are notably marked with the birthdayes of Martyrs Orig. li. 3. in Iob. Finally Origen saith expresly the place is often alleaged by your selfe Nos itaque non natiuitatis c. We do not celebrate the day of birth into this world considering that it is the entrie into dolours and temptations but we celebrate the day of death as being the laying off of all dolours and profligation of all temptations Pamel in Cyp. ep 34 And therefore it litle forceth what your
it is a case that may trouble a mans conscience that would beleeue your Church and if he haue any wit restrayne him for euer coÌ„ming into your Church If you can not vntye this knot nor winde your selfe out of this maze c. So insoluble forsooth are your argumentes agaynst the Church of God iij. Touching the Constance Councell presumption But the thirde error I trow will sticke faster by vs because it is amongest those determinations of the Councell of Constance whiche were made agaynst the foresaide Heretikes which I haue confessed to be confirmed also by the Pope And this it is in Fulke his owne wordes Pur. 4. It is horrible presumption that any man or multitude of men should take vpon them authoritie to define agaynst the worde of God as the Councell of Constance which decreeth in playne wordes That notwithstanding Christ instituted the Sacrament to be receiued in both kindes and that the faythfull in the Primitiue Churche did so receiue it Manifest falsification yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuayle and whosoeuer saith contrarie is an heretike c. These he printeth in a distinct letter as the playne words of that Councell Con. CoÌ„st Sess 13. but the words truely reported are otherwise The Councell first telleth that certayne temerarious persons not onely do communicate the lay people in both kinds and after supper but also obstinately holde that they must be so communicated See Augu. ep 118. ca. 6 Then saith the Councell Hinc est c. Vpon this occasion this Councell doth declare determine and define that although Christ did institute after supper this venerable sacrament there is one piece And did minister it to his disciples vnder both formes of bread and wine there is the other piece yet this notwithstanding the authoritie of the sacred Canons also the laudable and approued custome of the Church hath obserued and doth obserue that this same sacrament must not be consecrated after supper nor receiued of the faithfull when they haue broken their fast c. there is agayne for the first piece And likewise that although this same sacrament were in the primitiue Church receiued of the faithfull vnder both formes yet for the auoyding of certaine dangers and scandles this custome was reasonably brought in that they which consecrate receiue it vnder both and the layetie onely vnder the forme of bread c. there is agayne for the second piece That which you report is one thing and this is an other thing For you also your selfe I thinke will not deny but that it is a good custome not to consecrate nor receiue it after supper although Christ did institute it after supper Neither do you therein graunt Christes institution to be agaynst that custome 1 No more doth the Councell graunt that practise of the primitiue Church to be against the custome of one forme For both are very reasonable and therefore both standing well together not onely at diuers times but also at one time in diuers places or of diuers persons 2 Muche lesse doth the Councell graunt as you make it to do that Christes institution was agaynst this custome of one forme 3 adding also such presumptuous words to say and yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuayle No such words are there reade the whole Chapter who will he shall finde to be spoken very reasonably very modestly and euery way as may beséeme a Councell iiij Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture To the last error I referre certaine outcries that he maketh against our Church for the false interpretation of certaine scriptures But first let the Reader heare D. Allen out of his booke of Purgatory Marke well he saith and you shall perceiue Cap. 11. Pur. 14 that the Church of Christ hath euer giuen roome to the diuersitie of mens wittes the diuision of graces and sundry giftes in exposition of most places of the whole Testament with this prouiso alwaies that no man of singularitie should father any falsehood or vntruth vpon any text And to declare this doing of the Church he there alleageth that worthy Doctor of the Church S. Augustine Au. coâ— li. 12. câ— ad 32. Doc. Câ—sti li. 1.36 li cap. 27 who in two bookes writeth excellently and copiously to this purpose requiring principally that in euerye texte a man alwaies shoote at the sense of the writer Least by vse of missing the way he be brought to goe also the sideway or the contrarie way But although he misse that sense if he hit any other sense quae fidae rectae non refragatur that is not repugnaÌ„t to the right faith or quae aedificandae charitati sit vtilis that may serue well to the edifying of charitie towardes God and our neighbour that then nihil periculi est there is no daunger non perniciosè fallitur he is not harmefully deceiued nec omnio mentitur no nor is a lyar at all But rather the writer him self Et ipsam sententiam forsitan vidit peraduenture saw euen that sense also or at the least the Spirit of God which was in him foresaw that the same sense also would come in the Readers way Imò ut accurreret quia c. Yea and ordayned that it should come in his way for it also standeth on truth Now vpon this in his article of the Churches erring Ar. 86. he offereth the Protestants saith Let any man proue vnto me that the true and onely Church of God may falsely interpret any sentence of holy Scripture I recant Fulke herevnto saith This gentle offer must needes be taken I will proue vnto you that the Churche of Rome hath falsely interpreted diuers sentences of Scripture and therefore by that which she hath done it can not bee doubted but that she may doe it And for the first he there bringeth forth Pope Innocentius with S. Augustine and all the Westerne Churche at that time falsely interpreting this Scripture Supra ca. 6 pa. 2. Except ye eate the fleshe c. Wherevnto I haue already answered For the next he saieth Furthermore the second Councell of Nice howe many textes of Scripture doth it salsely interprete which it were to tedious to repeate yet for example sake I will rehearse some of them God made man to his owne image Gen. 1. therefore we must haue Images in the Church No man lighteth a candle and setteth it vnder a Bushel Mat. 5. therefore Images must be set vpon the Altars As we haue heard so we haue seene in the Citie of our God Psal 48. that is God must not be knowen by onely hearing of his word but also by sight of Images If these be not true interpretations I report me to you This is answered already by yâ— which hath bene said out of S. Augustine For to interpret any text for Ecclesiastical Images is to interpret it for the right faith not to interpret it falsely or to father any
But that is so manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and not of doctrine of the Sacrament as Prayers and Sacrifices that no man which vnderstandeth what diatazesthai doth signifie can doubt or make any question of it Be it so as you say But what haue you forgotten the thing wherof you speake Is it not of that Solemne prayer for the dead in the celebration of the Sacrifice That prayer we say is diatazis one of S. Paules ordinations What vnproper speach is here specially S. Augustine saying agayne in another place Aug◠ver ◠Ser. 3 Hoc enim a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia This being a tradition of the Fathers that is the Apostles the whole Church obserueth and therefore it is such a thing as nulla morum diuersitate variatur when they which are departed in the cōmunion or vnitie of the body and bloud of Christ be in their place mentioned at the same Sacrifice To pray for them and to mention that for them also it is offred Thus you haue a piece of the cause why the Scriptures conteined not the whole order of celebration of the Sacramēts to wit for breuities sake And what doth that or any other cause let other writers to make mention of such things when Aerius the heretike compelled them or any other iust occasion was ministred You imagine and that deceiueth you as though the Apostles purposed to put all in writing Which if they had neither so many of them That al is not vvritten nor one of them so often would haue mentioned one thing But as the purpose of the holy Ghost in the bookes of the Olde Testament was principally to foreshew manifoldly Christ and his Church so in the bookes of the New Testament as in the gospels Ioan. 19. Luk. 24. to shew Christ euen to Consummatum est and Impleri omnia quae scripta sunt de me And in the Actes of the Apostles to shew Christes Church according to the old predictions beginning amongst the Iewes and increasing to the Gentiles yea and remouing with S. Paule from Hierusalem the head of the Iewes worthily reprobated and setting in Rome the head of the Gentiles by mercy elected And all this but as it were the first birth of the Church for Consummatum est could not be tolde by way of a Storie before the ende of the world though foretold it is the whole course I say of the Church euen to the glorious consummation thereof in the Apocalipse The other Bookes were written specially agaynst the perfidious Iewes and other false Masters of that time As likewise in euery age afterward agaynst the seuerall heresies of eche age we haue the Ecclesiasticall I say not Canonicall writers and Councels And therfore vnlesse any thing belonging to ech time be omitted in the writings of ech time no maruaile at all for the omission of other things which there was then no suche occasion to expresse This I should haue reserued to an other place but that this insolent Poser might not abide any delay Pur. 264. Now then to go forward with him I know saith he the Papists will answer that Tradition is of as good credit as the Scripture 1. Thes 2. 2. Thes 2. 1. Cor. 11. and is the word of God vnwritten as well as the Scripture is the word of God written And good reason for the Scripture it selfe so teacheth vs. But why then saith he do they not obserue all things that Tertullian in the same place affirmeth to be Tradition This Why I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Supra ◠par 1. d◠Pur. 36 Moreouer he saith Their writings are to vs the onely true testimonie of their tradition So were they not to the Thessalonians For they had of S. Paule Traditiones per sermonē per epistolam Pur. 40 Traditions partly by word of mouth partly by writing Yea he saith further When the Apostolike writing can not be shewed it is but the poynt of an Heretike to boast of Apostolike tradition So he saith to D. Allen. But to the old Fathers I hope he will be somewhat better and content to take only his exception against them as where he saith Pur. 39. ◠If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that Oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he Againe Pur. 39 Chrisostome can no more proue that Prayer for the dead came from the Apostles then Tertullian can proue that oblation for the dead came from them Againe But where he saith Pur. 30 304. It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed He must pardon vs of crediting because he can not shew it out of the Acts and writings of the Apostles We must not beleue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Howbeit sometime he is bolder yet with the Fathers for auouching this Tradition He dare not call them heretikes for it but yet he dareth to charge them with doutfulnes contradiction about it For of Chrysostome he saith Pur. 39 Chryso◠Ep. ad ◠Hom. 3 Lo M. Allen your owne Doctor confesseth it is but small helpe that can be procured by praiers almes or remēbrance of thē at the celebration of the holy Mysteries You will say that soone after he saith The Apostles that instituted such memory knew that much cōmoditie came to the dead Then see how soone he forgetteth himself when he followeth not the rule of holy scripture And againe Ar. 39. Yet did not praying for the dead so preuayle in the Primitiue Church that they durst define what profite the soules receiued thereby for Chrysostome saith Let vs procure them some helpe small helpe truly but yet let vs helpe them Likewise Augustine Aug. ◠fes lib. cap. 13. where he prayeth for his father and mother declareth how vncertayne he was of the matter One while he feareth the daunger of euery soule that dyeth in Adam An other while he beleeueth that they neede not his prayer yet he desireth God to accept the same and moue other men to remember them in their prayers Thus it is necessarie that they wander which leane vnto mens traditions without the word of God And in the same place S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the end can define nothing in certayne how the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Such doubtfulnes they fall into that leaue the worde of God leane to traditions Although he were willing to mainteine Inuocation of Saints Pur. 317. yet he hath nothing of certentie out of the worde of God eyther to perswade his owne conscience or to satisfie them that moued the doubtes vnto him For S. Augustine De
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
and sure for their persons and not one of them but he was thankes be to God throughly satisfied by our conference and namely by séeing and hearing our foresaid dayly reading and examination of the Scriptures Which béeing by D. Allen our President his order vsed amongst vs who can doubt but he exhorteth men to reade the Scriptures them specially that vnderstande Latin much more thē S. Bedes historie And namely the Acts of the Apostles what booke do I his scholler more often vse in my Motiues and Demaundes then that And touching a Catholike trāslation of the Scriptures you shew your selfe to know litle God wotteth what is D. Allens desire and minde therein But all men may assure them selues that any thing lacketh therevnto rather then good will and feruent zeale specially because we sée it translated already by Catholikes into al other languages almost and because we know sundry cōmodities that might ensue thereof namely because we lament to see so many soules to dye in the most holsome waters beeing turned into deadly bitternes by your Starre Absinthin Apoc. 8. your blindnes withall being suche that leauing both the authenticall Gréeke of the Septuaginta which the Apostles and Primitiue Church did vse and also the authenticall Latin which the Church hath vsed so many hundred yeres in some part euen from the beginning almost you haue serued our countrey with the olde Testament of the late obstinate Iewes vowelling diuiding and reading it being of it selfe but one verse in the whole Psalter and ech other particular booke onely consonantes and to be read according to the tradition of the faithfull which tradition we know by our authenticall translations and not of the incredulous and perfidious No no whensoeuer we should make if we were in case and place a Catholike translation and send the copies in they should be in no lesse daunger of your searchers and fyres then our other bookes haue bene and are euery day more and more but yet that daunger should not stay vs if nothing els did knowing that such a translation will confound you ten thousande times more then all the other bookes haue done Last of all if none of my former requestes can finde place with you at the least wise you shal haue here in the Chapter folowing an answere to all your Scriptures hither vnto alleaged in both your bookes to chaw vpon for a while And then tell your Reader when as you haue here renounced all other euidences so he shall sée that you are no lesse destitute of Scripture also tell him then I say blaming D. Allen Pur. 364. and saying And yet he wondreth that we are so blinde that we can not see the cleare light of truth And againe in the ende of your booke Pur. 458. In Gods name let the Readers way indifferently and as they see this poynt of the dead handled so let them iudge of the rest The trueth is vpholden by euident testimonie of Scripture the error by custome practise and iudgement of men The truth seeketh vnderstanding of the Scriptures of the spirite of God in the Scriptures error at the mouthes of mortall men Now thē to these euident Scriptures in the name of God and to your diuine vnderstanding of them ¶ The eyght Chapter To shew his vanitie in his foresaide rigorous exacting of playne Scripture and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered AL the Scriptures that he alleageth against vs throughout his two bookes I do sort and distribute into foure partes The first concerning the question of onely Scripture the second concerning the question of the Church the third concerning the question of Purgatorie the fourth concerning al other questions that he mentioneth The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture And as touching the first In the last Chapter we saw how to make exception against all our other euidēces he euermore said that in all matters Onely euident Scripture must be brought and heard confessing those other euidences to be so euident for vs that they can not otherwise be auoyded Now then this béeing his onely refuge how many and how euident Scriptures hath he alleaged for it as you thinke Surely in all his first booke to D. Allens Articles they being altogether our foresaid Euidences he alleageth but one place onely and not many mo neither in his other booke of Purgatorie And what maner of place also thinke you that it is specially considering howe muche he craketh of it as where he saith Thus I haue declared Ar. 11.15 c. that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all Heretikes onely by the Scripture Agayne it hath bene already proued sufficiently Ar. 16. that the true Catholike Church which is ledde only by the worde of God the onely weapon by which heresies are cut downe counting it to be sufficient for that purpose hath ouerthrowen heresies of all sortes And againe Doctrine is to be sought out and tried onely by the Scriptures Ar. 82. as we haue declared at large in the answere to the fourth Article first Demaunde And once againe Ar. 86. As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or cōtention of heresie they must be resolued and determined as it is abundauntly declared before onely by the Scriptures With that place of Scripture he alleaged certayne Fathers as Hilarius Basilius Chrysostome Sainct Augustine Leo the first and the Councell of Constantinople the sixte To whom I must aunswere in the next Chapter Infra pag. But he graunteth pardie that the Fathers authoritie is no warrant to him so to crake as another where also expresly he saith Pur. 383. It is not for confirmation of the trueth that we alleadge the authoritie of the Doctors and olde Councels Then must all these crakes be onely in respect of the Scripture that you there alleaged Let vs therefore nowe heare that Scripture So did Paule ouercome the Iewes Act. 18. that is to say Ar. 11. only by the Scripture That he often disputed against the Iewes prouing Iesus to be Christ I there finde but that his argumentes were none but Scriptures I finde not But reade you Actes .13 and you shall finde that he vsed also other argumentes agaynst them to witte the testimonie of certayne men as of S. Iohn Baptist and of his owne Disciples that sawe him many dayes together after his resurrection qui vsque nunc sunt testes eius ad plebem Who to this day are witnesses for him to the people Reade likewise Act. 4. for the argument of Miracles specially where it is sayde Hominem quoque videntes stantem cum eis qui curatus fierat nihil poterant contradicere Seeing the man also standing with Peter and Iohn whom they had healed the Gouernours of the Iewes were quite put to silence And therefore also if S. Paule had in your place ouercome them
to wit by considering whether he agrée with them that are of God with them that receiued and kéepe the vnction or spirite of truth which was sent to the Church for euer with them that depart not after any Seducers but continue in that which they heard in the beginning as the Romanes do most manifestly no Antichrist nor Heretike being able to name the time the noueltie the Seducer that euer they went after so as Wittenberge Geneua England and all other that we charge with it haue done most notoriously This is the effect in generall of S. Iohns Epistles Agayne you alleage and say The word of the Lorde is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our féete Pur. 285.364 Psal 118.18 Therfore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Item The faithful testimonie of Gods word onely giueth true light vnto the eyes as the Prophet saith And by and by after you call it The onely authoritie of Gods word written But the Prophet neither hath the word onely neither saith that Gods word is not but in writing but rather most euidently by Gods worde there he meaneth the preaching of his Apostles Rom. 10. S. Paule also him selfe referring that verse of the same Psalme vnto them accordingly Into all the earth their sound is gone forth and their words to the ends of the world And so you may see the light of Gods word to be not only in writing but also in tradition by mouth Pur. 210. Last of all you alleage and say against Iudas Machabeus In the Law not so much as one pinne of the Tabernacle was omitted lest any thing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God Deut. 12. ver 8. 32. You shall not do saith the Lord what séemeth good in your owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that only shal you do without adding any thing to it or taking away any thing from it You are very dayntie of your quotations in maner none at all in your margin because you alleage so fewe places and commonly omitted in your texte also because you alleage your places without booke This is my coniecture let the Reader loke in the places as I doe quote them because for breuitie sake I omitte many thinges that were worth the noting Wel in this place Moises saith not That only which I do write but That only which I commaund you And so our Sauiour said long after to the Iewes accordingly Mat. 23. The Scribes and Pharises sit in Moises chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it and doe it As for the Pinnes of the Tabernacle they are so mentioned for other causes as you may sée in the Doctors Commentaries and not for the cause that you imagin that is to leaue nothing to any man afterwarde in the worship of God for how say you then by Dauid and Salamon who chaunged not only a pinne yea all the pinnes but also that whole Tabernacle building in stéed of it a Temple in Hierusalem and there ordeining musicall instrumentes and many other things for the worship of God that the law did not mention You alwayes erre because you do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humane spirite and men that haue the spirite of God as Moyses the Prophets the Apostles and the Catholike Church And so hauing answered al your places I would your Vnlearned Brother to know of it him that euery yere sendeth out the Newyeres giftes and what els I know not and to tell me now why I might not in my last Motiue call this your Castle of Onely Scripture Onely Scripture Your weake and false Castle Weake because you haue no defence at all for it neither of Srripture as I haue here declared neither of Doctor as in the nexte chapter I will declare False because not so much as one worde of Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the ende of the Apocalipse maketh for you in any thing nor against vs in any thing as in this Chapter I doe ynough to persuade therein any reasonable man and therefore it is but a false sleight of you Heretikes and a mere deception of the simple when you be ouerthrowen by Apostolike traditions by auncient Fathers and so by many other our weapons in Christe as in the laste Chapter your selfe haue confessed to sette a bolde face vpon it and vaunte that yet for all that the Scriptures be plainelye for you and plainely against vs. In which boldnes your impudencie cryeth euen to heauen when you dare yet vaunt thereof so farre to saye that the Church of God is faine therefore to blaspheme the holye Scriptures seeing them to make so plainely for you When you here in the laste Chapter and your Masters and Scholefelowes commonly in their writinges feare not to open your mouthes thus against Gods holy Tabernacle in earth I that am nothing and in very deede nothing and lesse then nothing may not disdaine the like opening at me by the foresaide Vnlearned but contenting me with mine owne conscience and the conscience of God him selfe and his Angels and all his Seruauntes that knowe me by my person or by my writings beeing moste certaine how alwayes in heart and worde I haue honored the most holy Scriptures euen as gods owne liuely and infallible worde I submit my selfe with Dauid in an humble and contrite heart to all that Semei hath or shall vtter against me if peraduenture my Lorde God most mercifull will accept it to forgeuenes of my manifold and heynous sinnes desiring of him no other reuenge but the parties conuersion and reconciliation to him and his swéete spouse my lieue Mother the Catholike Church And so muche in this place to that man In which place you also Fellow Fulke Arg. ab authoritate negatiuè may be admonished to looke better to your Logicke concerning your argument ab authoritate negatiuè that you oppose it no more to our so many argumentes ab authoritate affirmatiuè I gaue you a litle before two causes thereof consider them well I pray you All knowledge that Christian men haue of heauenly things you say Pur. 449. to mainteine your argument is grounded vpon the authoritie of Gods word meaning the Scripture Therefore as it is no good Logicke to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true So of the whole doctrine of God wherein all trueth necessary to saluation is conteined the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine Letting Purgatory alone till anone there are two faultes I say in this reasoning One because the Maior is false as to all your textes alleaged for it I haue answered The other because although the Maior were true yet can not the argument be
his baptisme but he is all cleane I aske you then what if hée dye before he wash his féete He is cleane and therefore he shall not to hell as the vncleane Iudas Yet he is not so cleane but that he néeded more washing shall that then be quite omitted which so néeded and he to heauen before he be all cleane Well by al this you haue not yet proued that Christes bloud whensoeuer it washeth washeth continuallie and at once to the full Yea the saying of Dauid is manifest for the contrarie Hée was washed from his sinne by Christ and yet he prayeth for the same sinne saying Amplius laua me wash me more from my iniquitie clense me from my sinne In answering vnto it Psal 50. Pur. 97.78 you haue nothing to say but that it was at Gods handes and by the meanes of Christes bloud that he prayed to be clensed Yea syr but the place teacheth vs that God and that bloud do not at euery time wash one so fully but that they reserue yet to wash him more when it is thought good Now let vs heare also whether it folow that in suche washing nothing worketh with the bloud of Christ because the bloud is of it selfe omnisufficient The sufficiencie of Christes Passion saith he is counted a light argument to M. Allen. Pur. 154. Too light in déede to beare downe anye doctrine of Christ But sayth he thus wee reason Christe hath payde the full price of our sinnes hath fully satisfied for them therefore there is no parte of the price left to be paide by vs there remaineth no satisfaction for vs. And yet saith he againe We neither exclude repentance nor good works For Christ hath paide the price of their sinnes that repent and beleeue in him that folow his steppes that walke in his precepts So then he misliketh not that our workes should be with the passion of Christ but that they should worke with the passion of Christ and therefore he saith the absurditie of our doctrine is this that we say Christ by his suffering is become a cause of saluation to all that beleeue in him yet euery man by good works must procure his owne saluation These he saith are the enemies of the Crosse of Christ And yet it is the Scripture that saith Philip. 2. Worke your owne saluation Neither will he I trow cal the Apostle an enemie of God because he there saith It is God that worketh in you and yet worke your owne saluation Much lesse will he reason thus God is sufficient and able to work our saluation therefore there is no part of our saluation lefte to be wrought by the Passion of Christ For he séeth the reason to be a false reason and his reason is euen of the same fashion as both he and euery body besyde may sée Therfore to agrée al these Scriptures and Truethes together what could be more apte then as we be taught in the Schooles that there be thrée sortes of working causes Agens principale Instrumentum coniunctum Instrumentum separatum as in one writing I do write as the principall my hande doth write as the instrument vnited vnto my person and my penne doth write as the instrument separated from my person Eche of these working the whole worke and not parting it betweene them It is so in the working of our Saluation The Godhead worketh it principally The Manhoode of Christ and the workes of it namely his Passion worketh it as the arme of God The Sacramentes worke it as his instrumentes diuided from his person And so likewise his mysticall members the faithfull with their works do worke it as it were meanes and agents personally separated from him though mystically vnited vnto him And they part it not betwéene them but eche after his maner worketh the whole And that is it which the Scripture meaneth by helping Pur. 241. the word that your ignorance so much abhorreth when it so often saith that God helpeth both Christ Psa 17. and vs 2. Cor. 2. Heb. 13. And also that Christ helpeth vs. Heb. 2. But yet there is a difference in this similitude For God were sufficient to saue without the passion of Christ and that by baptisme yea and without baptisme also and other such instrumēts Likewise the passion of Christ were sufficient to saue though not without God yet without baptime and all other like But I can not write without my hande nor without a penne If then the Godhead or to vse your words the infinite and only cause of our saluation the meere mercy of God although it be so singularly omnisufficient doth not exclude neither Christes passion nor the working of it or merites of that man how doth the omnisufficiencie of Christes passion enforce you to exclude either his baptisme and his good workes in his members or also the working of his baptisme and the working or efficacy of those good works specially considering the Scripture is playne for al. For as it is written Pur. 97. That he hath washed vs from our sinnes by his bloud Apoc. 1. So likewise that he hath saued vs by the lauer of Regeneration Tit. 3. He clenseth his Church by the lauer of water Ephe. 5. Baptisme doth saue you 1. Pet. 3. So againe He hath made vs kings and priests to God Apoc. 1. If spiritual priestes ergo to offer our spirituall Sacrifices as our mortification Rom. 12. our almesdéedes Hebr. 13. both for our owne sinnes and for the sinnes of other because the externall Priest is ordeined to offer externall Sacrifices for sinnes both for him selfe and for the people Heb. 5. Which places I alleage rather then other as playne or playner because you were so blinde to alleage the selfe same for the contrarie to proue that Christ saueth vs by his blood alone as thogh the grace therof might not worke in his Sacraments and in his members workes Wherevpon also vpon the Angells saying Apo. 7. These are they that came out of great affliction Pur. 95. and haue washed their stoles and made them white in the bloud of the Lambe therefore they are in the presence of the throne of God you make this clarkly note and saye Marke here that they which came out of this great affliction were not purged thereby but that they washed and made white their garmentes in the bloud of the Lambe by whose righteousnes being clothed they may appeare in innocencie before the throne of God The text saith plainly that therefore they are before the throne to witte because they came out of such affliction so whited their stoles and yet this gloser taketh it awaye from the affliction whereas that whiting was nothing else but that affliction He forgate to do himselfe that which he so loftily would seacute eme to teache vs To conferre other places when there is a doubt for in another place of that booke it is expresly written thus Who so ouercommeth shal be clothed with white garmēts
Apoc. 3. And if you yet doubt by what they ouercome whether by the Lambes bloud alone or also by theyr owne patient confession or affliction vnto death it is written there agayne And they ouercame the diuell by the bloud of the Lambe and by their owne martirdome dia â—on logoâ—â—es martyriâ—s auâ—on and loued not their life euen vnto death Apoc. 12. And S. Paule accordingly calleth it 2. Cor. 4. the mortification of Iesus when the Apostles were mortified for Iesus and saith they carried the same about continually in their bodies that also the life of Iesus might be manifested in their selfe same bodies at the latter day which is the same thing that the Apocalipse calleth to appeare before the throne in white stoles Wherby you sée that as the bloud of Christ so by it martyrdome also worketh such glory For so it foloweth there again This our affliction although it is but short and light operatur worketh vs euerlasting weight of glory exceding measure aboue measure Because affliction here for Iesus doth so wash our stoles or bodies therefore it procureth that they shal be so glorious in the Resurrection this say these Scriptures And so much of the foundations and by occasion of them Now to Purgatorie it selfe and prayer for the dead Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe and praier for the dead whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Limbus patrum Directly against Purgatory prayer for the dead you shoote diuers arrowes or rather cockshotles so deadly are the woundes that your shot doth make First you will proue by many and euident Scriptures that all the Elect do go yea and alwayes from the beginning of the world haue gone straight to heauen therefore neuer no Purgatory neuer no Limbus Patrum Whiche if you can do your skill in the Scripture no doubt farre passeth all the auncient Doctors were they neuer so wel studied therin For they all could not finde so muche as one text that all or any one also went to heauen before Christ yea and not many textes Vide Sander monar li. 7. pag. 518.520 Pur. 57. that any one after him also goeth thither before the generall Resurrection but rather very many textes that vntill the Church within these 300. yeres defined the contrarie made it very probable that none are there till then Well thus you begin That the Fathers of the Old law before Christ were not in hell it is to be proued with manifest argumentes and authorities out of holy Scriptures But first you thinke necessary to answere one text that stoode in your way saying Although they were not nor yet are in perfect blessednesse God prouiding a better thing for vs that they without vs should not be made perfect Heb. 11. By that they of the old Testament wer not made perfect or consummate without vs of the new Testament S. Paule there doth meane euidently that their Soules were not yet admitted into heauen As in that whole Epistle he sheweth that the Old Testament did consummate nothing but contrariwise Heb. 7. Heb. 10. Heb. 9. that it made continually euery yere a commemoration of their sinnes because they remayned still and were not perfectly remitted and therefore that Christe dyed In Redemptionem earum praeuaricationum quae erant sub priore Testamento To buye out the preuarications that were all that while that so at length the heires might attayne the euerlasting inheritance which was promised Heb. 9. Nondum enim propalatam esse Sanctorum viam adhuc priore tabernaculo habente statum For the way into Sancta or heauen was not yet opened vntill the high Priest Iesus entred first thereinto Heb. 10. qui initiauit nobis viam nouam It was he that beganne this newe waye vnto vs who nowe therefore haue fiduciam in introitu Sanctorum Confidence to enter in after him béeing our forerunner into the same Sancta And all this is spoken of our Soules As for our bodies neither yet is the way open vnlesse Sancta were open when onely the High priest entred into them This was the prouidence of God for vs that we should not thinke we come to late if the Fathers soules had beene admitted in before vs. Confer the end of your owne text with the beginning of it Heb. 11. vt non consummarentur and non acceperunt repromissionem Sée how plainly he expoundeth their not consummating to be their not attayning of the promise And what promise Heb. 9. Confer this other place vt repromissioneÌ„ accipiant aeternae haereditatis That the heires might attayne the promise of euerlasting inheritance I might at large declare the same by the whole course of Scripture as D. Allen saith very well but that I am not here to alleage Pur. 439. but only to answere Well then against these most manifest Scriptures let vs heare the manifest authorities of Scripture which you pretend Pur. 57.58 For you say Seeing they all beleeued in Christ they had euerlasting life and entred not into condemnation but passed from death to life Io. 5. To what life but the life or resurrection of their bodies for vntill the last day all the dead are in death but then some shall come forth into resurrection of life some others into resurrection of damnation but he that beleeueth in me hath that is most certainly shall then haue Iohn 11. life euerlasting and commeth not into damnation but passeth from death wherein he hath so long bene to life This is the playne text of that place As likewise in all the New Testament lightly euery where life after corporall death signifieth the resurrection of the bodies where the soules be in the meane time here is neuer a word no nor of the Saintes of the old Testament afore the institution of Baptisme wherevnto beliefe in him giueth now accesse Ioa. 1. and 3 that belieuing in him they may haue life Io. 20. But their state we must gather out of other places of holy Scripture And to what end againe you say was Christ called the Lamb that was slayne from the beginning of the world but that the benefite of his passion extendeth vnto the godly of all ages alike This is your expounding of Scripture by Scripture you are a true man of your word The place is Apo. 13. Whose names were not written in the booke of life of the Lambes that was slaine froÌ„ the beginning of the world CoÌ„ferring it with this place Apo. 17. Whose names were not written in the booke of life from the beginning of the world you perceiue the error of your coÌ„struction It is not said that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world but that all the reprobate shall adore Antichrist when he commeth as the Gospell also saith Mat. 24. that the Elect also should be then deceiued if it were possible Neuerthelesse that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world is true though not in your fond
that be Canonical but among others being Apocryphal Cuius authoritas c. The authoritie of which boke is thought lesse fit to confirme those things that come into contention betwéene the Hebrewes no doubt and vs. But notwithstanding the Hebrues counting it Apocryphal the Nicene Councell as we reade hath reckned this booke in the number of the Holy Scriptures As also S. Augustine distinguisheth saying Aug. de Ci. dei li. 18. ca 36 The supputation of the times after Esdras to Aristobulus is not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in others among which others are also the bookes of the Machabees which though the Iewes do not yet the Church counteth for Canonicall By all which it is playne that S. Hierome meaneth not as the Protestantes do when he saith that the Church receiueth not the bookes of Iudith Tobias and the Machabees among the Canonicall Scriptures For him selfe saith that the booke of Iudith is Canonicall by the Councell of Nice but only as I haue saide he instructeth the Christians béeing ignorant in the Hebrue tongue what bookes they should vse against the Iewes for which cause he also addressed his new Translation of the olde Testament out of the Hebrew as in many places he protesteth Hie. Apol. ad Ruff. and that the Church in Canonizing those other bookes meant not for all that that they should be vsed agaynst the Iewes who receiue them not and therfore would but laugh at vs for our labour Howbeit also if S. Hierome did saye in the Protestantes sense that the Churche then receyued not those bookes neither in her owne Canon that maketh nothing for the Protestantes For we graunt the time was when the Church did not generally receiue some of those bookes To make for the Protestantes he should haue saide that the Church and not only any priuate person neither did then nor ought afterwardes to receiue them Pur. 216. Where now is Fulke that saith Hieronym doth simply refuse these bookes of the Machabées Agayne Hieronym saith the Church receiueth them not for Canonicall Pur. 386. Yea moreouer I haue by the consent of the Catholike Church aunswered them And agayne of Tobias booke Pur. 215.230 I haue shewed by authoritie of Hieronym which is proofe sufficient agaynst the Papist that the Church receiueth not this booke of Tobias for Canonicall Scripture All this you saye but I haue shewed that not so muche as Hierome him selfe maketh with you though also if he did Supra pa. 1. eodem cap. that is not proofe sufficient agaynst vs as I haue tolde you playne inough before that it is onely the consent of the Doctours to whiche we attribute infallibilitie and the scope that of confidence of our cause we geue you to bring one Doctour if you can is not in these bymatters but in our principall controuersies And this much of the Canonicall Scriptures though it be somwhat besides my limites Whervnto yet I must néedes adde the place where you say thus Pur. 218. If Martyn Luther and Illyricus haue sometimes doubted of S. Iames Epistle they are not the first that doubted of it Eusebius sayth playnely it is a counterfeite Epistle lib. 2. cap. 23. and yet he was not accounted an heretike I say not this to excuse them that doubt of it for I am perswaded they are more curious then wise in so doing Do you make it but curiositie to doubt of that Scripture which your selfe also confesse to be Canonicall Howbeit Luther not onely doubted of it but also vtterly reiected it euen with as great courage as you haue here reiected the second of the Machabées and that also after the consent of the whole Church Is this no worse then Eusebius his fault before the Churches declaration O worthy estimation of Canonicall Scripture What matter will not you license them of your side to doubt of without note of Heresie when you dare so do in that which with you is the greatest And yet also to shewe what a marchaunt you are A falsarie Eusebius saith not as you charge him but the cleane contrarie Eu. li. 2. c. 22 His wordes are these Of Iames I reade so muche By whom the first of the Epistles which are named Catholicae is saide to be written But this one thing I maye not omit that although of some it is taken for a counterfeite because no suche number of the auncient writers maketh any mention at all of it as neither of that which is saide to be the Epistle of Iude which also is sette in the number of the seuen Epistles Catholicall Tamen nos istas cum reliquis in quamplurimis Ecclesijs publicè receptas approbatasque cognouimus Yet we haue founde these with the residue to be publikely receiued and approued in very many Churches ij About onely Scripture Next vnto this I take in hande the question of Onely Scripture thinking better to deferre the rest touching Purgatorie to the end of the chapter dispatching also all other questions before because they be shorter Howe he ascribed all authoritie to Onely Scripture and nothing to ought els we heard in the seuenth chapter If the Doctors be not of their ovvn side they be on â—ulks side Now he will beare the ignorant in hande that the Doctors were of the same opinion yet confessing withall that they helde the contrarie no lesse then we doo as partly in that same chapter we saw partly here agayne we shall sée And therefore in this question agayne as in others afore it is no more agaynst vs then agaynst those Doctours them selues whatsoeuer he wresteth oute of their writings Cyprian would haue nothing done in the celebration of the Lords supper namely in ministring of the cup Pur. 287. but that Christ him selfe did li. 2. Epist 3. I answere he writeth there contra Aquarios against them that offered in the Chalice water onely whereas Christ offered wine That he calleth aliud quà m quod pro nobis dominus prior fecit An other thing then that which Christ did first for vs as being cleane against Christes doing and such a doing as he did for a tradition to vs. But otherwise to mingle the wine with water S. Cyprian there requireth and that also by Christes tradition and therfore he buildeth not vpon onely Scripture as you in alleaging him séeme to pretend Pur. 303. Now for an other Doctor where Chrysostome sayth It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy Mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed we will be bold to charge him with his owne saying And there you alleage foure places out of him against him selfe as it were for onely Scripture Is not this pretie shewing of the Doctors to be of your side And what are these places of S. Chrysostome First IdeÌ„ Ar. 69. Hom. de Adam et Heua Satis sufficere c. We thinke it suffiseth enough whatsoeuer
which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of
exauditions partely of curinges are done in so much that the bodies of Geruasius and Protasius Martyrs which laye hidden so many yeares they were Martyred in the Apostles time were reuealed as if they will aske they may heare of many vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodyes one that had bene many yeares blynde very well knowen in the Citie of Millayne receiued his eyes and eye sight Or because such a man had a dreame and such a man in Spirite heard a voyce that he should not enter into the side of Donatus or that he should goe out from the side of Donatus Where hee addeth of these miracles and visions saying Whatsoeuer suche thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church otherwise not be they done in Donates side or in Luthers or in Caluines Non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia haec in ea siunt But not therby is the Catholik church made manifest because these things are done in her You translate it that she is not proued therby as though S. Augustine said that also true allowed Miracles visions wherby in the Scripture also it selfe we sée Christ him self and so many other things purposely proued lacke weight and fashion of iust probation Whereas in deede he saith no more of theÌ„ then he saith of Scripture which is obscure not that it wanteth authoritie to proue the Church but that it doth not make the Church manifest requiring therfore the Donatistes to bring such Scripture as needeth no interpreter Sicut non eget interprete Which we alleage saith he out of so many most manifest places for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence growing on continually ouer al Nations euen till Domesday Such Scriptures do make the Church manifest but so do not obscure Scriptures vntill the interpretation be allowed Neither Miracles and visions vntill they be allowed Now the Donatistes would none of the Catholike Church in their time but both we and you confesse it And therefore when we alleage the Miracles done in it you haue not to except agaynst vs by this place of S. Augustine And that againe because we also do apeale with him to such the same Scriptures for manifest triall of the Church so that my vâ—ry first demaund is therof though we vse also other probations to shew that Scripture and all is for vs and nothing for you As he also doth where he saith to the Manichees vpoÌ„ the same matter Aug. coÌ„ ep Fund ca. 4. In Catholicae Ecclesiae c. Many things there be which in the Catholike Churches lappe most worthily do keepe me There keepeth me Consensio Consent of peoples and Nations There keepeth me Authoritas Authoritie by Myracles begon nourished by Hope by Charitie encreased by Antiquitie made firme and sure There keepeth me Successio Sacerdotum Succession of Priestes from the very See of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord after his Resurrection committed the feeding of his sheepe euen to the Bishop that now is There keepeth me finally Iohn 21. ipsum Catholicae nomen the very name Catholike which not without cause among so many Heresies this Churche alone hath obteined Ista ergo tot c. These then so many so great most deare bonds of Christian calling do wel keepe the man that beleueth in the Catholike Church although as yet he vnderstand not the truth which he beleeueth To which place of S. Augustine you pretend to answere saying vnto vs All this you will say maketh exceding much for vs Ar. 69.70 yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem c. But with you Manichées and Protestantes where there is none of these to allure me and keepe me sola personat veritatis pollicitatio there ringeth onely a promising of trueth Then to your purpose as you think quae quideÌ„ si tam manifesta moÌ„stratur c. Which trueth if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred I graunt before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church And what of this By this you may playnly see quoth you that though Consent and vniuersalitie Antiquitie Succession and the name Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all As though S. Augustine graunted that the trueth might be seuered from them Where he playnly saith also moste sincere wisdome syncerissimam sapientiam that is truth and vnderstanding of it without all corruption to be in the said Catholike Church though the Heretikes will not beléeue so muche but thinke that the Catholikes are grosse heades and blind folowers of mens commaundements But them selues though destitute of all that should moue any man to be of their side yet to haue the truth most manifestly and without all doubt For that cause S. Augustine ioyneth with them in that booke and answereth their foundations as I do yours in this booke shewing that all this glorious talking of trueth is but winde of vayne words One such place more you alleage twise to the same purpose Ar. 14. Pur. 203. De pastoribus cap. 14. To a strayshepe seeking the Church what say you Syr Donatist Partis Donati est Ecclesia The peece of Donatus hath the Church Reade me that out of the Scriptures out of the Shepeheards voyce For out of them do I recite Ecclesiam toto orbe diffusam The Church which is not any mans piece but beginning at HierusaleÌ„ spreadeth ouer al the world Sed illi codices tradiderunt But thou sayst such men trayterously deliuered the holy bookes to Dioclesians ministers and suche men offered incense to the Idols such a one and such a one Quid ad me de illo de illo What is that to me of such a one such a one quia nec de illis vocem pastoris annuntias For it is thy selfe that accusest them But tell me the Shepheards voyce if that voyce accuse one I beleeue it alijs non credo other accusers I do not beleeue Sed acta proferes But thou wilt bring foorth Court rolles wherein their crimes are registred Acta profero And I also bring foorth Court rolles wherein the same mens innocencie is registred Credamus tuis crede tu meis Shall we beleeue thine beleeue thou mine also Non credo tuis noli credere meis I do not beleeue thine and I geue thee leaue also not to beleeue mine Auferantur chartae humanae sonent voces diuinae Let mens Court papers be remoued and let Gods sayings be rehearsed Ede mihi vnam Scripturam pro parte Donati Geue me one place of Scripture for the piece of Donatus or of Luther or of Caluine or of any other broken piece Audi innumerabiles pro orbe terrarum But for the Church of the whole world I am ready to rehearse innumerable
his foundations of Purgatory though in other places contrarying your selfe after your maner you say It was somewhat risely budded vp in his time yea and throughly finished And to proue this his pretensed doubtfulnes you alleage foure bookes of his Enchir. ad Laur. cap. 69. Ad octo Dulc. quaest q. 1. De fide op ca. 16. and De Ciui Dei li. 21. ca. 26. In al which places he repeateth one saying as D. Allen noted before you answering it moste clearely and shewing against this pretensed vncertayntie of his that not onely in other bookes but in all the same bookes also and almost in the very same chapters Pur. 118. he holdeth as a matter of faith and to be beleeued of all Christian men that the prayers of the liuing do release some of their paynes in the next life And constantly as al other Catholikes euer did coÌ„fesseth that the sinnes or vncleane works of the liuing not duely by penance wyped away in this world must be mended after our death For De Ci Dei these words he hath August de Ciui li. 21. ca. 24. 13 Ench c. 110. Ad Dulcit q 2. Tales constat ante Iudicij diem per poenas temporales quas eorum spiritus patiuntur purgatos c. It is certayne that suche men beeing purged before domesday by temporall paynes which their soules do suffer shall not after the resurrection be committed to the torments of the euerlasting fire And a litle after Temporali supplicio ac sanctorum orationibus mundatos being clensed by temporal torment and prayers of the holy ones Which declaration of D. Allens was so euident that your selfe are compelled to say Pur. 110.196 Aug. ciu li. 20. c. 25. li. 21. c. 13.24 Pur. 121. Howbeit 21. booke c. 13. of the same work De ci dei he coÌ„cludeth very clerely and that vpon the texts Mal. 3. Esa 4. Mat. 12. that some suffer teÌ„porall payns after this life This may not be denied And yet that in the same bookes he was vncertaine you haue so playne words that you suppose D. Allen neuer read the places in Augustines owne bookes but onely receiued his notes of some elder Papists that had speÌ„t more time in gathering them but had not such audacitie to vtter them as M Allen. Who but you could or would for shame of heauen earth set such a face vpoÌ„ a matter so cleare of it selfe and so confessed of your selfe But which are those so playne words Ench. c. 69.68 Nonnullos fideles per ignem quendam purgatorium quanto magis minusue bona pereuntia dilexerunt tanto tardius citiusque saluari Some of the faithful after this life to be saued so much later or sooner by a certaine Purgatory fire as the more or lesse they loued transitory goods but yet hauing Christ in their heart for the foundation that is so as they preferred nothing before him but were ready to forsake all rather then him This to be so is not vncredible Et vtrum ita sit quaeri potest aut inueniri aut latere And whether it be so in deede it may be searched and by search either found or not found These are the plaine wordes in which to replye to D. Allens answere you will néedes haue S. Augustine so often in one booke and almost in one Chapter to be grossely contrary to him selfe one while certaine another while vncertaine of one and the selfe same thing But D. Allens answere according to S. Augustines plaine wordes in these chapters also as well as in the others is as it was that he speaketh not still of one thing or of one Purgatorie fire but of two diuerse The one Purgatorie fire is to punish so to purge by temporall paines the soules for there sinnes for their euill life though not so euill vt misericordia habeantur indigni that they may be thought vnworthy of mercy Of this Purgatory S. Augustine with all the faithfull of all ages holdeth him selfe â—o certaine The other Purgatorie fire is as the fire of Tribulation in this life for the most perfit also to passe through euen them whose life was talis in bono vt ista non requirat so good that they neede not to be releeued with the prayers of the Church and therfore not to punish sinne as now we speak of it but only to weare out by litle and litle rerum secularium quamuis licitè concessarum c. suche affections to worldly lawfull things as to wife c. that without griefe of mind he can not part from them so as the other can which builded golde siluer and pearles whose worke therfore is not burned vp quia non ea dilexit quorum amissione crucietur because he did not loue those things with the losse wherof to be tormented And of this Purgatorie S. Augustine was vncertaine as it is in dede very doubtfull saith D. Allen to this day also Pur. 119. not onely because we know not whether such worldly lawfull affections do remayne in the Elect soules departed but also because nothing but sinne and the debt of sinne séemeth to endaunger the soule to any payne whether it be poena sensus or onely poena damni Whervpon to say the truth it séemeth to me more probable although S. Augustine inclined more to the other side that there is not any suche Purgatory but rather that after full penance for sinne or full pardon of it the soule goeth without all delay straight to heauen And so I haue shewed plainly what S. Augustine was certain of and what he was vncertaine of thinking good withall to admonish the Reader that although for more perspicuitie I name two Purgatories out of S. Augustine yet I meane but one purgatory with two diuers operations as it is but one fire of tribulation in this life though it haue those two operations to purge sinne with punishment and to purge worldly lawfull affections with griefe of minde when we must in persecution depart from our beloued That also Purgatorie fire after this life is for the first of these operations it is certayne Whether it be also for the other it is vncertayne Hithervnto perteineth that also where you say Pur. 317. M. Allen affirmeth that S. Augustine De cura pro mortuis agenda neuer doubteth but intercession may be made vnto the Saintes for the dead and oppose to his affirming cap. 5. of the same booke Cum ergo mater fidelis c. Therfore when the faithful mother desired of Paulinus Bishop of Nola to haue her sonnes body laide in the Martyrs Church Si quidem credidit eius animam meritis Martyris adiuuari hoc quod ita credidit supplicatio quaedaÌ„ fuit If she thought his soule to be holpen with the Martyrs merites this her thinking was a certaine supplication haec profuit siquid prosuit and this supplication profited if any thing profited Here Augustine you say doubteth whether supplications to the
often as aboue in his Enchiridion graunteth the same fire to be also for the said mortall sinnes if one haue left committing of them but not yet fully redéemed them poenitentiae medicamentis with the plaisters of penance viij Of Limbus patrum And now we are come to your Doctors that you alleage agaynst Limbus Patrum The one is S. Augustine Pur. 56.60 Au. ep 99. of whose most cleare testimonie alleaged by D. Allen Because the (a) Act. 2. Scriptures make euident mention both of hell and of paynes I see no other cause why our Sauiour came thither according as we beleeue nisi vt ab eius doloribus saluos facerit But to ridde some of the paynes therof Fuisse enim apud inferos in eorum doloribus constitutis hoc beneficium praestitisse non dubito I am out of doubt that he was in hell and that he bestowed that gratious benefite vpon some that were in the paynes therof You are fayne to say that it is but the authoritie of a man But you haue another place a Gods name Where he semeth vtterly to deny that he came in that prison of hell And to make all sure you imagine what we will answere to it and then you make your reply But all besides the text like one that neuer saw the booke For he saith there as plainly as in the other place Fuit apud inferos Christi Anima diuinitas Aug. in Felicianū Arrianū ca. 17 18.15 Both the soule and the diuinitie of Christ was in hell But for what cause Vt anima animas reparet That his soule might repayre our soules and as aboue he said deliuer some soules out of their paynes there But not to suffer any paines there it selfe as the Arrians did blaspheme For if saith he in the words that you alleage his or the good théefes for it may be vnderstoode of either body being dead his soule is immediatly called to Paradise do we thinke any man yet so impious that he dare say our Sauiours soule in that three dayes of his bodily death apud inferos custodiae mancipetur is in hell committed to prison Lo syr what he vtterly denieth to wit that his soule was committed there to prison not that it came in that prison as to deliuer the prisoners Your other Doctor is S. Ireneus whom D. Allen first alleaged saying manifestly Pur. 55.59 Iren. lib. 3. cap. 33. that Adam was Implens tempora eius cōdemnationis quae facta fuerat propter inobedientiam Fulfilling the times of that condemnation which came by disobedience vntill our Lord came and then solutus est condemnationis vinculis he was released of the bonds of his condemnation And you answere that the name of Adam seemeth to be takē in these words rather for a name common signifying all mankinde then for a proper name Iesu how blindly Do you not know that he reporteth li. 1. ca. 31. that the proper Heresie of Tacianus was Adae saluti contradictionem faciens His ignorance that he gainsaide the saluation of Adam and after him S. Augustine Haer. 25. Saluti primi hominis contradicunt The Tacianistes gaynsay the saluation of the first man And do you not sée that he disputeth against that Heresie in the said place li. 3. euen from cap. 33. to 39. But you haue another place of his Iren. lib. 5. in fine where he plainly ouerthroweth our fantasie in that he saith of the place where Christes soule was those thrée dayes that it was suche a place as all his disciples shall rest in vntill the time of the generall Resurrection He saith not so he disputeth agaynst those old Heretikes Who said that immediatly assoone as they were dead they ascended aboue heauen and aboue the Creator and came to the mother or to their fayned father leauing their body for euer neuer to rise againe and therefore attayning al perfection and the highest promotion at once S. Irenée therfore auoucheth against them not only the Resurrection but also the order of the Resurrection and saith that if this were so then our Lorde giuing vp his Ghost vpon the Crosse would straight haue gone vpwarde leauing his body to the earth But he did not so Three dayes he conuersed where the dead were in the inferior parts of the earth in the middest of the shadow of death And then after that he arose corporally and after his resurrection was assumpted Séeing therefore no disciple is aboue his master saith he it is manifest by this that also his disciples soules shall goe he saith not into the same place but in inuisibilem locum definitum eis a deo into an inuisible place appoynted for them by God and there shall tarrie vntill the resurrection abiding the resurrection and afterwards receiuing agayne their bodies and rising perfectly that is corporally sic venient ad conspectum Dei so shall come to the sight of God to wit the whole man both in soule and body So he may well be vnderstood because the Soule of Christ also had the sight of God before his Resurrection Yet supposing that he thought neither so muche as the Soules to sée God before the Resurrection as some other Doctors did thinke vntill it was of late defined by the Church as I noted afore in the eight chapter yet that doth not declare as you pretende that he thought of Limbus Patrum otherwise then we do For you heard him saye afore that Adam at our Lordes comming was released out of that place béeing a place of captiuitie and nowe by him his soule is in that other inuisible place Whereof it followeth manifestly that by him the former place is not al one with the later And so thankes be to God I haue fully answered all that you alleage against Purgatorie or any other Article of the Catholike faith according to my promise in the beginning of this Chapter Whereby the Reader may perceaue perfect vnitie of faith to be betwixt the Fathers then and vs now notwithstanding all that you could bring And that so euidently that in most matters in most of the Fathers you were faine to pretend no lesse that one and the same man was not in vnitie with him selfe so that this chapter néeded not so much for defense of our doctrine as for the defense of the Doctors them selues against your childish and arrogant detractions ¶ The tenth Chapter That notwithstanding all which Fulke hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues and likewise euery one of those Articles standeth still in his force Euery one I say and much more al of them to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant BY the Summes or Argumentes of the chapters aforegoing the Reader may perceaue that being laide together they make a manifolde euident demonstration to the condemnation of the
when the matter was brought before the Pope he tooke such blessed order with it as was very méete for his Apostolike See to wit that the Friars new scandalous booke secreto combureretur should be priuily burned for shaming their order say you And what fault was that I pray you Know you not how S. Augustine vsed Pelagius and his disciples in the beginning of their new doctrine when he first wrote against them Tacenda adhuc arbitratus Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 33. c. I thought good not to expresse as yet their names hoping that so they might more easily be amended Imo Pelagij ipsius nomen non sine aliqua laude posui quia vita eius a multis praedicabatur Yea in my next writing expressing the name of Pelagius himselfe I did it not without some prayse because his life was commended of many Thus did S. Augustin vse one Monke and him the author of a most pestilent Heresie as he proued afterwards And your Christian spirite would haue all the order all Monkes the innocent also shamed for the fault of a few Such would haue bene your care to amend those few and such your prouidence to saue the wheate whereof these fewe might haue made as gret waste if they had not bine wisely handled as Friar Luther now hath made for lacke of a siluer spurre and a Cardinals hatte and as Erasmus also might haue made had he not bene made of by Catholike Bishops farre aboue his merites Yet one shift more you may séeme to haue where you say for your argument ab authoritate negatiuè of the whole Scriptures authoritie negatiuely Pur. 449. And this conclusion M. Allen him selfe made of mans authoritie cap. 13. Purgatorie and prayers for the dead were not preached against at their first entry Ergo they are true or rather there was no such entrie of them as you imagine but they came lineally and quietly from the Apostles But of all mens authoritie it is false you say Howsoeuer the argument of all mens authoritie negatiuely be good or bad who but you would call this such a one All heresies according to the Scriptures Fathers and Histories haue bene preached against at their first entry This was neuer preached against Ergo this is no heresie nor neuer since the Apostles time did enter ¶ Names In the thrée next Demaundes I haue thrée easie and familiar notes by our bare names to know which side is right Ar. 66. and which is wrong To that generally Fulke saith He is a foolish sophister that reasoneth from names to the things In what Logike he hath that axiome I know not But this I know and you shal heare it * In the 7. Dem. See cap. 11. his 37. cōtr Aug. in Ps cōt partem Donat. Ar. 68. anone that also him selfe so reasoneth I know moreouer that S. Augustine so reasoneth Dicitis mecū vos esse saith the Church to the Donatists sed falsum videtis esse Ego Catholica dicor vos de Donati parte You say that you be with me But you see it is false For I am named Catholica and you Of Donates part S. Augustine I trow he will not call a foolish sophister nor him selfe a foolish sophister Againe he saith generally If the onely name of an honest man of a learned man of a good Christian is enough to proue the thing many a knaue asse hypocrite may proue himself an honest man a learned man a good Christian As though we said the argument to be good frō euery name to the thing No syr we say it no more but of thrée sort of names of which the Fathers said it before vs and experience teacheth it and you can not disproue it by giuing any instance For there are in it further reasons then onely arguing from names to things 6. Catholikes Motiue 1. Article 20. First then we say that sith the Apostles did bid vs beléeue that church which is named The Catholike Church euermore to this day they haue ben true Catholikes in déede which were in times of Heresies and Schismes commonly called Catholikes and easily knowen thereby For this we alleage among others S. Augustine wherof you take notice which may be written it is so rare a thing in this your booke against the Articles and go about to answere him with his owne words but very fondly as I haue shewed cap. 9. pag. 182. The rest that you haue is oppositions after your custome As where you oppose to this name your stale exception which here cap. 7. Ar. 69. you oppose to all things of Onely Scripture saying Wherfore howhoeuer you boast of the honorable name of Catholike except you proue that your opinions agree with the Scripture they are not Catholike in dede by Chrysostomes iudgement Againe By this you may see that Chrysostome thought it not sufficient to haue the name of Catholike Your folly in this allegation I detected cap. 9. pag. 172. neither is it Chrysostomes neither doth he speake of the name Catholike nor of the Apostles writings but of the Apostolike Sees writings Ar. 66. Another opposition You your selues will not account the Grecians now since their separation for true Christians And yet as many nations haue since then called them Catholikes as you are able to shew on your side Though they are not so called by you for no more are you so called by them Be bolde to say ynough how litle soeuer you be able to proue To saye the Grecians be called Catholikes is like as to say the Latines be called Catholikes which were forsooth a proper saying considering that not only we but you also be Latines But this I say that as among the Latine or Westerne Christians he that in common talke or writings heareth Catholikes named vnderstandeth vs therin not you so likewise if he heare the Catholike Gretians or the Catholikes of the East whether he be Latine or Gretian he vnderstandeth them that be with the Pope beléeue the holy-Ghost to procéede of the sonne also not the Schismaticall Heretical Gretians And therfore in this example is nothing to the contrarie but that they be true Catholikes which are knowen by the name of Catholikes And so much you say of the name and rule it selfe Now which of vs two haue that name whether we or you Ar. 66. The Heretike Gretians do not call vs Catholikes you say No more do you that be Heretike Latines But yet both you and they mistake not the person when common talke and bookes so calleth vs. Therfore I say we be true Catholikes On the other side you say Ar. 68. And we haue as many Nations and more then you haue that by publike authoritie call vs Catholikes and you Heretikes Who be so called any where by publike authoritie is not the question but who be commonly called knowen by that name Howbeit also of any such publike authoritie no man knoweth but your selfe But this
vndique Ire li. 3. ca. 3 conseruata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio In which Church saith S. Irenée that is by repayring to it the faithfull that be all about haue alwayes preserued theÌ„ selues in the tradition that coÌ„meth from the Apostles And where you say for another instance Ar. 2.3 Pur. 337. It is manifest by al Histories that the Nations of the Alanes Gothes Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians in so saying you declare that you neuer read the Ecclesiasticall Histories presuming notwithstanding to write against these Articles which are in maner nothing els but certayne obseruations therof Reade Socrates li. 2. ca. 32. and not onely li. 4. ca. 27. and Sozomenus li. 6. ca. 37. but specially Theodoret li. 4. ca. 32. who as a Catholike Bishop of purpose to take from the Arrians that vayne bragge of theirs sheweth that the Gothes were first Catholikes and not as you say first conuerted by the Arrians but onely by false informations and to much trusting of their Bishop Vlphilas béeing another Balaam ledde out of the way You talke also of the Nations that were coÌ„uerted by the Donatists Nouatians Pur. 337. But we shall know your Histories authors hereafter Againe you say And it is also manifest by Histories Ar. 3. that the Grecians whoÌ„ the Papists count no part of their church but Schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all Did the Grecians conuert them since their Schisme O great Historian The truth is there was great emulation then in the Grecians against the Latins but not schisme nor heresie as yet nor long after and therefore of our Church they were then Howbeit it is not the true faith nor our religion as you say truely which the Moscouites haue but such as they them selues did list to receiue with many qualifications and modifications of their owne such was the fruite of the Grecians emulation and such is the necessitie that S. Peter cast the nette But if Histories fayle you yet one demonstration ex per se notis you haue to proue that not we but you conuerted all true Christian Nations Ar. 2. And what is that If the Papist can proue that we hold not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the Nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ The Papist proueth to omitte a 1000. others of his proufes that you be Heretikes and therefore hold not the same faith c. by the testimonie of that which your selfe confesse to be the true Church of Christ here cap. 2. and cap. 3. Againe We are members witnesse your Separation here Dem. 3. Ar. 2.3 of that Church which conuerted all Landes in the earth that are conuerted to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steed of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the word of God Witnesse here cap. 8. Where all your absurd Deprauations of Gods word are answered and not that onely but also shewed by the expresse word of God among other thinges that the Sacrament of Confirmation went euery whither together with the Apostles Gospell as the chiefest point of Christianitie Ar. 3. pag. 145. But no maruaile of your audacitie to say we are readie to proue it considering that you are bold to conclude of this saying thus I haue shewed that our church holding the true Doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all Nations to true Religion Then belike all those Nations were and are of your Religion and you will be content to be tryed by them as by Afrike for example whose Religion we know by Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Optatus S. Augustine c. Or if you haue better Monumentes of any other Nations Religion name it and let vs try it betwene vs. But whosoeuer séeth here cap. 3. how you are faine to charge the true Church the Primatiue Church with erring may easily coniecture what you dare doe Motiue 17. 11. Britannie Well we be English men and therefore in a seuerall Demaund I name our Countrie England or Britannie vnto you Specially because the Prophetes as you know speake much of the conuersion of Ilands expresly and namely of such Ilands as were farthest of As also because there are extaÌ„t such monumeÌ„ts of our Ilands conuersion and religion in Tertullian Origen S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Gregory the Pope with many other like and specially in the History of our owne countreyman S Bede But here Fulke telleth such English men that list not to be deceiued Pur. 346. but to see into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles that they were better to consider the word of God the Historie of the Acts of the Apostles and biddeth vs of so many Nations there recorded to name one Pur. 166.332 vnto which Purgatory or praying and sacrificing for the dead was taught You are profoundly seene in the Scriptures I perceiue by this Why was the Actes of the Apostles written to shew into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Nay is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles No syr that booke was written to shew onely the beginning of the Church according to the Prophets to wit at Hierusalem and among the Iewes and the taking of it froÌ„ them for their deserts and geuing of it to the Gentils euen froÌ„ Hierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles And there S. Luke endeth it not caring to tel so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to S. Paule in whose person this traÌ„slation was wrought and not in S. Peters nor any others of the Twelue for causes to long to be here rendred Caesari te oportet assistere Thou must stand before the Emperour Because his purpose was no more but to shew the new Hierusalem of the Christians and so to leaue them to it to know what are the particulars that the Apostles taught And so withall you haue one of those Nations named in the Actes and that no common one â—o wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only the Article that you require but also all the rest which at this time it hath neither you béeing able by Scripture or otherwise to proue the contrarie so muche as in any one and we prouing it both a particulars and in the totall summe partly by Scriptures partly by other vnauoydable demonstrations Well for all this trigiuersation by which you sée what you haue wonne you will yet be content to be tryed by our Britannie Ar. 49. For you confesse that the Church of the Brytans or Welchmen before Augustine came in to conuert the Englishmen Anno 597. continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time Pur. 332. so that
Aaron but Aaron him selfe was Priest only in his owne time and after him euery one in his time was priest aswel as he and therefore in that law were many Priests So that the old Testament was like to England since the Conquest hauing successiuely many kings But the new Testament is like to England during the time of one king who being but one yet hath many ministers as one might say so many ministeriall kings Your third argument The Apostle to the Hebrues teacheth vs cap. 10. Pur. 289.201.45.451 that Christ offering but one sacrifice for our sinnes that but once cap. 9. hath made perfect for euer those that are sanctified that our sinnes are taken away by that Sacrifice and therfore there is no more sacrifice for sinnes left Do you vnderstand the words that you alleage Do you know what he meaneth by those that are sanctified by their making perfect by Sacrifice for sinne Verely you do not as by by it will appeare The scope of that Epistle is to exhorte the Hebrewes that is the Christian Iewes who were sore assaulted of the other Iewes partly with obiections partlye with persecutions to perseuer in the faith of Christ He doth therfore tell them that in the old Testamēt there was not Remission of sinnes but continuall commemoration of them Heb. 10. But now that Christ hath offered him selfe vpō the Crosse Vna oblatione cōsummauit in sempiternum by that one oblatiō he hath made perfect for euer sanctificatos the sanctified Heb. 10. that is 1. Cor. 6 the baptized So that of their former sins there is now no more remēbrance Iere. 21· therfore no more any offering for the same Heb. 10. but if they dye they go straight to heauen So mightily and so graciously doth that one oblation work in baptisme But what if after baptisme they sinne againe For that S. Paule there doth not at the least The true meaning of the Epistle to the Heb. directely tell any remedie because his purpose there was no more but to exhorte the standing to perseuerance and therefore he doth rather terrifie them saying If they fall againe Iam non relinquitur pro peccatis hostia now is not leaste Sacrifice for sinnes that is to say Christes death will not worke with them in another baptisme This he telleth them but remedie he doth tell them none But we by his other Epistles by the other Scriptures and by Tradition of the Church do tell such also against the Nouations that the same one oblation of Christ hath prepared for them also a remedie though not another baptisme yet the Sacrament of Penance We magnifie it yet moreouer and say that it hath also prepared many other Sacraments besydes these to other singuler effectes and in one of these Sacramentes a Sacrifice also in which it worketh to sundrie purposes By this appeareth I say your ignorance in things which yet you feare not to affirme as that the Catholikes should saye Christ hath not made them that are sanctified Pur. 451. perfect by a Sacrifice once offered for all for the greatest parte is lefte to the Masse As though when one commeth to vs to be baptized we diuided the remission of his sinnes betwéene Baptisme and the Masse This is your blindnesse to think that to be against the honor of this one Priest and of his one Sacrifice which is highly for it to wit to haue vnder him many ministers and many ministeries as it were cōduites to deriue his purchase and redemption to his people If we ascribed ought to any man or to any thing but from that Priest and from that Sacrifice then you might well exclayme against vs. And we in the meane time worthily exclaime against you for Apostating from the ministerial Priesthood the mysticall sacrifice and gracious Sacraments which he by his death purchased and left to his Spouse the Church our mother for our saluation and she hath kept them to this day deinceps and will kéepe them as S. Augustine said hereafter euen to the ende at what time your vile tongue shall reape as now it soweth Now after your Scriptures let vs heare your Doctors against this Sacrifice to proue that there is none such or at the least not consisting in Christes body Pur. 316.292 That Augustine by this Sacrifice meaneth not the body of Christ is manifest in his booke De fide ad Petrum Diac. cap. 19. Because there he calleth it Sacrificium panis vini the Sacrifice of bread and wine The same writeth being Fulgentius and not Augustine in the very like place as you may sée here cap. 6. pag. 63. and calleth it Sacrificium Corporis Sanguinis Christi The Sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ By the firste name for the matter by the seconde for the hoste But he sayth further you obiecte that In isto Sacrificio gratiarum actio atque commemoratio est carnis Christi quam pro nobis obtulit sanguinis quem pro nobis effudit In this sacrifice is Thankesgiuinge and commemoration of the fleshe of Christ whiche he offered for vs vppon the Crosse and of his bloud whiche hee shedde for vs. But what a commemoration In illis Sacrificijs quid nobis esset donandum figuratè significabatur In hoc autem Sacrificio quid nobis iam donatum sit euidenter ostenditur In the Sacrifices of the olde Testament was figuratiuely signified what should be giuen vs. But in this Sacrifice is not figuratiuely signified but euidently shewed what is alreadye giuen vs. In them praenunciabatur occidendus He was prenounced to be killed for vs in this annunciatur occisus he is announced already killed In such maner as in Rome the martyrdoms of S. Peter Paule are vpon their feast cōmemorated euidently shewed and announced by their very bodies and heads then sene and visited For which cause the Relikes of Martyrs be often in * Aug. de ci li. 22. ca. 8. antiquitie called The memories of the Martyrs And yet no Martyrs Relikes or body doth so expresse the very species of his martyrdome as the mysticall separation of Christes body and bloud in this diuine Sacrament doth expresse the species of his passion Ar. 55. But you haue one wonderfull place of S. Augustines For if it were well wayed it will you say interprete and answere all places of the auncient Doctors where mention is made of sacrificing the body of Christ at the time of the Communion In that place go first the words which I put here in the 22. Dem. pag. that he calleth it the one singular sacrifice of the Christians Then follow afterwards the words that you meane Ipsum vero sacrificium corpus est Christi And that same one singular Sacrifice is the body of Christ quod non offertur ipsis quia hoc sunt ipsi Which body is not offered to the Martyrs for this be they also This to wit the body of Christ Hereof
then they be the Churches nowe answering whatsoeuer obiections you haue brought against them Ar. 5. Againe you say As for the Popish Church she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonicall bookes of the Scriprere from the Apocryphall writings as appeareth by receiuing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. The Popish Church that Canonized those bookes was the Primitiue although ye call them Heretikes which did it as I haue shewed playnly Pur. 214. and by your owne confession cap. 9. pag. 165. and that you are fayne to saye that also the Primitiue Church therein did erre S. Augustine therefore as he saith to the Manichie denying the Actes of the Apostles Cui libro necesse est me credere si credo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas I must needes beleue this booke if I beleue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth vnto me both those Scriptures alike so he saith vnto you denying the Machabées Ecclesiasticus Iudith c. I must néedes beléeue them if I beléeue the Gospell because they also be in the Canon of the same Church as he telleth you playnly here cap. 9. pag. 165. And therefore they are but words when you said erewhile We allow and beleeue the Primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God And againe Ar. 10.9 We haue most steadfast assurance of Gods Spirite for the authoritie of Gods booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages and so we know it to be true You beleue the Gospell for the Churches testimonie euen as much as the Manichies did because you reiect her authoritie Canon in other bookes as they did in the Actes And therefore againe you do but condemne your selfe when you say Ar. 4.5 The Church of Christ commended the bookes of holy Scriptures to be beleeued of all true Christians And againe The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre In so saying you both iustifie vs who as we confesse that Church so we beleue her Canon and condemne your selues who confesse it to be the true Church and yet deny her Canon yea and generally her authoritie here in the 34. Dem. holding stiffely that she may erre and did erre in many things and therfore making Only Scripture your ground for all things Wherin how contrarie you be to your selfe any man may sée and I must note it in the next Chapter In the meane time I note Cap. 11. cōtradict 33.34.35 Ar. 8. that you shew your selues not to be the Church that cōmaunded S. Augustine to beleue the Gospell in that you say fréely We do not chalenge credite to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it but because we proue it to be true by the worde of God By what place of Scripture did either the Primitiue Catholike Church proue to S. Augustine or could you proue to the Manichée the Actes of the Apostles to be of Canonicall authoritie The true Church of all times is of like authoritie and therfore that which was not presumption then is not presumption now But what will not your terme of Only Scripture serue you vnto when by it you argue say Ar. 6. Our Congregation hath euer had both right and possession of the Scriptures as appeareth by this that our Church Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them And that be not a notable plea to proue a right and a possession yea and a continual possession I report me to your Lawyers What a forehead and face haue you to say A substantiall lye that your companie had euermore possession of the Bible Is it not euident that Luther and all that are come of him tooke their Bibles of the Papistes Leaue your impudent facing it is not your new vpstart Congregation it is our Catholike Romane Church which hath continually kept her possession of this Treasure which she receiued of the Apostles She it is that reiecteth no one booke therof she it is that with Gods spirite hath kept them from corruption of all Heretikes Ar. 5. If also the Arrians Donatists Nouatians Eutichians and other Heretiks receiued all the bookes of Scripture What doth that proue but only that those Heretiks should rather be the true church then you and that we might not vse against them this piece of our argument as we doe against you but this rather that they had those Scriptures of vs and caryed them out with them whē they went out from vs. So did also the Greeke Church Ar. 6. and other Esterne Churches of Asia and therefore If vnto this day they haue kept them neuer so safely they are not for all that the true Church Euery Article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the church but some only that you be not the Church When our Church was oppugned by other enemies she knew what she had then also to do So she had hath her proper Motiues against the Iewes and therefore it is a wise Demaund of yours when you say Why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully then euer the Papistes We doe not now encounter with the Iewes but presupposing the Religion and Church that Christ and his Apostles did institute to be true we geue plaine notes how a man may know that the Protestāts haue it not as because they deny some Canonical bookes of Scripture the Churches authoritie which is the foundation of the Canon And therefore that no wise man should be moued when he heareth them to claime it and that by pretēce of Scripture and false carde of Onely Scripture from vs who doe so faithfully beléeue and haue so vncorruptibly keapt all the bookes of the same As for the Iewes old Testament I towched your blindnes therein cap. 7. pag. 103. sufficiently and also your desperate impudencie pag. 103. in charginge the Church with reiecting of the Scriptures 37. Stoarehouse of all Trueth Motiue 29. As in our Church at this day a man may find all the holy bookes which the Church in old time layed vp in her Canon thereof so likewise all other Truthes I say in my next Demaunde which in any of her Councels or otherwise she ruled ouer canonized at any time against any Heresie of her rebells or against any error of her owne obedient children that the Protestantes all other Heretikes haue no truth among them but they had it of our Church which Church therefore I say is now and euer and she onely the Stoarehouse both of Canonicall Scripture Iren. cōtra Heraeses li. 3 ca. 4. and of all trueth beside And therefore againe
ignorance and otherwise do liue in good works especially his welbeloued seruantes also praying for them Yet to damne such also because they be out of the Church is congruous to his iustice Yea for God to saue al the world is cōdigne to the merites of Christ yet he damneth innumerable because that it is condigne to their owne merites Thus while you went about to stayne Gods Church in vaine it is fallen out only by the way that you your selues are Messalians for denying the grace of the Sacraments Pelagians for denying the necessitie of Baptisme and Manichees for denying Frée-will This is all that you haue gayned 39 In confessed Heretikes onely Motiue 46 When we make the Protestantes to confesse as in the last Demaund that the Primitiue Church noted certaine to be Heretikes for holding their doctrine they set themselues against the Primitiue Church also such is their obstinacie say that those persons were not Heretikes therein We therefore not leauing them so if it be possible any way to open their eyes or at lest the eyes of the poore deceiued people do shew them as in this next Demaund that the same persons were Heretiks in other poynts also so playnly that we make them to confesse that also And neither yet will their hard stonie hartes relent Ar. 44. If Aerius had not bene an Arrian saith Fulk his opinion against praying for the dead could not haue made him an heretike though both Epiphanius of the Gréeke Church and Augustinus of the Latin Church do so register him Then what do we more We aske them Pur. 421. Why God openeth these mysteries alwayes and onely to suche as you your selues saith D. Allen to them can not deny to be Heretikes and not to Athanasius Epiphanius Augustinus or some other blessed men of that time but contrariwise leaueth these his elect and doctors of his Church in ignorance yea and with pertinacie condemning those true mysteries for soule Heresies and hath no body in the meane time to be their reformers but such as are infamous and of no credite by reason of abominable confessed heresies And do they yet relent No I warrant you Such a yoke it is to be once wedded to heresie And yet they haue no answere herevnto that may satisfy any man of reason as now we shal sée For thus saith Fulke vnto it Pur. 409.422.424 Ar. 44. What if any Heretike hath affirmed some thing that is true Is trueth worse in an Heretikes mouth The diuels them selues confessed Christ As though it were agréed that it was trueth which those Heretikes affirmed as it was agréed that he was Christ whom those diuels confessed No syr that is the question But if the diuels had said one thing and the Apostles the contrarie which then were like to haue bene the trueth For so the Catholike Fathers saide with vs and the Arrians said with you which therefore is like to be the truth You say truth hath testimonie of Gods word and whether it be affirmed or denyed by the diuell it is all one Mary in déede he that would defende the diuell saying agaynst the Apostles affirming that he can bring Gods word must néedes haue audience though he put vs to our trumps So you defending Aerius the Arrian Heretike against the Catholike fathers bringing Scripture do trouble vs forsooth as the reader hath séene here in the 8. chapter where I haue answered al your Scriptures as all must nedes be answerable that is brought against truth and so they find which reade our writings But because that way to reade all is long we tel such as would not make so great a iorney that they may be sure without more trauell that not to be of God the reuealer of all trueth which Heretikes held against the Catholiks as also that which the diuels might hold against the Apostles And the more because we reade that Christ and his Apostles cōmaunded the diuell to silence Luc. 4. Act. 16. when also he confessed trueth for proceeding out of his lying mouth it might as Fulke saith wel the sooner be discredited Whereas in our case by the saying of the Protestantes he commaunded the diuell and his Heretikes to teach the trueth and the Fathers to silence or rather not to silence but suffering them to resiste the trueth all that they could Pu. 422.421 But he can aunswere one question with another Why was it first reueiled sayth he to the Arrians in Councell that the Article of Christes discent into hell was meete to be added to the Crede which was not reueiled to so many godly men as set forth the Symbole nor to the holy Nicene Councell Answere me if you can He speaketh so of this matter without any quoting of Author as if it were a thing notoriously knowen Belyke it is receiued among them who would put it out of the Crede againe as a principle of their Aristotle and I who reade not their bookes but with leaue and for necessitie am not so well acquainted in their mysteries Perhaps a friends ghesse of mine is true that they say so because they find it in some Arrian Crede that is recorded in the Ecclesiasticall Storie Theo. li. 2. cap. 21. For it is found in déede in Theodorete that the false Nicene Arrian Synode saide in their newe Crede Crucified dead and buried descended into hell whom hell it selfe did tremble at According to the ydle or rather hypocriticall diligence of Heretikes who vse in Credes or confessions of their false doctrines to infarse some nedeles truethes Whereas the Catholike Nicene Councell thought it ynough in their Crede to repeate and explicate onely those Articles of the Apostles common Crede of which Articles Heretiks had as then made question Is not this then a substantiall cause to say that it was firste reuealed to the Arrians to put it in the Créede whereas it was before in the Apostles Créede Though also if it were true that the Arrians did first put it into the Créede what is that to our case They had not the Catholikes in that against them yea it was a common Article of the Catholikes faith The Articles of the Arrian Aerius were not such As also the Article agaynst Rebaptization which Article some Heretikes perhaps helde right when S. Cyprian and some other Catholike Bishoppes were deceyued in it But yet the Pope with the rest of Christendome helde it as they had it of the Apostles What is this to your Articles which onely olde wicked Heretikes did holde we saye against all Catholikes They were fitte Articles for Heretikes at all times but neuer for Catholikes as at this time also for Anabaptistes Seruetians or Arrians Suenkfeldians Pur. 421. all the others that you count Heretikes as well as we doe sayth D. Allen because they are their inheritance as well as yours descending from your common father Luther But for that wound also you haue a plaister if not to heale it
of his fellowe members here on earth And why is he not of charitie bound as well to pray for them And if he be why are not those members in heauen as well or haue not they also receiued of God some giftes If they haue why are not they of charitie bound as well or doth not the Scripture say plainly the Christes friendes in heauen do reioyce with his penitentes in earth How then coulde you pretend Luc. 15. as though the mutuall offices of loue whereby one member hath compassion with another can by no meanes touch the state of the dead Is not the state of the holy Angels now the state also of some that be dead Be not they also among Christes friendes in heauen So much you say touching the Communion of the Church militant here on earth For you haue another besides it which you call the communion of the whole body that you make to be the participation of life from Christ the head If that be all then is there no Communion For what communion were it betwéene the members of your naturall body if they did onely receiue life from your head and could not vse their said life to profit one another but liued euery one to himselfe alone How much better had you bene to follow D. Allens most proper and true discription of it then to vtter thus you know not what at the least if you could not correct him yet you could belye him as to say that he will haue other workes and wayes of saluation beside the bloud of Christ He saith that in this Communion all workes and all wayes of saluation are common to the whole body al grounded in the bloud of Christ But of any beside the bloud of Christ he saith not Yea it is clene contrarie to that which he saith ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie THus at the length with the helpe of God I am come to the end And yet the Reader must vnderstande that I finde in this man such store of this stuffe as would suffice to make another volume as big as this partly by enlarging these two last Chapters with many more of his like contradictions errors or ignorances for all the former Chapters be full freyted partly by making many new Chapters vpon new matters As one to shewe howe he behaueth himselfe in all places where he chargeth either the Catholikes doctrine or D. Allen himselfe with contradictions Another to lay together all his falsifications of the Scriptures Doctors and D. Allen by adding diminishing or chaunging their wordes Another of his most impudent facing lyes without any colour of truth Another of his detestable raylings not only at D. Allen but also at the old Doctors and at Rome and at the whole Churche which he can not auoide the Scriptures with his owne confession are so plaine for it but it is the true Church his owne Mother and Spouse of Christ Another of his ridiculous answeres to many of D. Allens Demaundes sometimes like him that answered a pokefull of plumes whē he was demaunded the way to London sometimes to answere the very same thing that is in question c. Moreouer diuers others chapters yet of Purgatorie about his answeres to D. Allens allegations to sée whether he haue so answered thē as I haue here answered al his allegations against it yea against any other Article of ours One of those Chapters might be to gather all the Scriptures alleaged by D. Allen the auncient Fathers before him and Fulkes answeres vnto them with my replies which are e dispersed in this booke like as in the 8. chapter I haue gathered al Fulkes scriptures answered thē Another of such bookes in antiquitie as he denyeth namely the workes of S. Dionysius Areopagita and the Constitutions of the Apostles by S. Clement because he could not otherwise auoide their plaine testimonies for prayer for the dead they also liuing euen in the Apostles time and familiarly with the Apostles Of which bookes notwithstanding there are such probations as can not possibly be answered Reade the Preface of Fr. Turrianus in his new edition of those Constitutions and the Preface of Mat. Galenus ad Areopagitica Cop. Dial. 2. ca. 5. as also the Preface and Scholies in the Gréeke edition by Morelius at Paris Anno. 1562. In another Chapter I might shew how vainely he laboureth to answer certaine testimonies of the other Doctors considering that he graunteth other testimonies of the very same Doctors them selues or of their seuerall times to be so euident for it that they can not be answered for which cause also he passeth by many of them with silence as that S. Augustine in one place prayed for his mothers soule and yet to stand with D. Allen about other places of his that they proue it not as though Doctors opinion and iudgement being confessed there néedeth any more to doe to be made about his sayings And yet it is nothing also which he answereth to those other places as I haue shewed in very many of them Another might be to lay together all D. Allens argumentes or reasons for it with my replies to Fulkes answeres such as I haue made in diuers places of this booke In another I could shewe that Fulke hath made no answere lightly to these Scriptures Doctors or reasons but D. Allen did foresée it afore hand warned the Reader of it and made so iust a replie vnto it as standeth still vpright euen after that Fulke hath done the worst he could Another might be to shew out of Iustinus Martyr Ireneus and Clement Alexandrinus in how many things they also make with vs most euidētly as in nothing against vs because he doth so oftē require vs to proue prayer for the dead by any of them as though he would yéeld to them although he will not to their fellowes wheras in déede he excepteth against them no lesse as I haue shewed then against the rest Another might be by occasion of his zeale for Caluine Luther and such other his Maisters and fellowes to shewe more copiously that they are worthily charged not onely with those shamefull opinions by D. Allen but also that they may be likewise charged with very many moe no lesse yea and much more shamefull then those These matters are such as being so handled would worke the further discredite of Fulke and of his side and yet being no more handled then alreadie doe leaue no blotte in our side no nor so much as in D. Allen particularly For which cause I minde not neither hereafter to prosecute them vnlesse I haue greater occasion geuen then yet I sée But presently I omitted them to auoide more prolixitie and specially because in this booke I tooke in hand to defend not D. Allen but the Church and therefore whatsoeuer
them selues Augu. ad quod haer 43. Origenist as S. Augustine writeth and so restore them to the kingdome of God Et rursus post longissima tempora omnes c. And that all againe should at length returne to the same miseries And that the felicities and myseries of men and Angels haue alwayes had and always shall haue their turnes and courses after this maner Thus he erred you sée about hell and heauen and about Purgation of the damned but of the Purgation of suche as die in Gods fauour here is no word Vnlesse you reason thus There is no such Purgatorie as Origen and Carpocrates would haue ergo no Purgatorie at all Which followeth euen as necessarily as this doth There is no such hell nor such heauen as Origen did put ergo no hell at all nor heauen at all Releeuing of the dead by prayer Now for the Reléeuing of them which else must as we say 1. Cor. 3. Supra ca. 3 pa. 2. and as S. Paule saith endure a fierie and therefore a most painfull Purgation you graunted in the third Chapter that the auncient Fathers of the true Church as Epiphanius Augustine counted Aerius an heretike for teaching Aug. hae 5. Epi. hae 75 Such absurd shiftes he is driuen vnto That Prayer for the dead was vnprofitable Orare vel offerre pro mortuis oblationem non oportere he taught saith S. Augustine That we must not pray nor offer oblation for the dead But you will nowe proue and that also Ar. 45. by the selfe same Fathers and out of the selfe same bookes of theirs that their doctrine rather was heresie For If Aerius say you was an heretike for denying prayer for the dead to be profitable why were the Heracleonites accused of heresie because they buried their dead with inuocations Epipha li. 1. Tom. 3. haere 36. Epiphanius after Secundiani and Ptolomaitae writeth in order of Marcosiani Colarbasiani See Epip◠ab haer 32. ad haer 36. and Heracleonitae saying that they were all Gnostici as their predecessors the Valentinians and Carpocratians that is to saye men of knowledge Which Gnostici all of them did count perfectam cognitionem perfect knowledge or perfection to be this if a man forsooth had wallowed himselfe like a swine in all and euery filth that is otherwise his soule after death shoulde by the Iudge and his Minister who were according to their fables two of the Angels that created the world be imprisoned agayne in a bodie This saide all the Gnostici and I touched it also aboue But the later of them after the vsuall maner of heretikes as Epiphanius noteth not content with their Fathers inuentions would adde somewhat also of their owne inuention They inuented therefore a certaine Redemption as they called it which consisted in a fond imitation and corruption of the Sacramentes of Christ but in that againe after the manner of heretikes disagréeing much amongst them selues For looke how many are the professors of this doctrine Epiph. haer 34. Iren. li. 1. cap. 18. so many are their Redemptions sayeth Ireneus and out of him Epiphanius speaking of the Marcosians Some did it by way of a mariage Some as it were at Baptisme one sort by water an other sorte by a mixture of oile and water both which sortes did after anoint the partie with balme and all with certaine fond words according to the fables of their heresies Alij verò haec anima auersantes c. But some other woulde none of all these saying that the mysterie of the vnspeakeable and inuisible power ought not to bee celebrated in visible and corruptible creatures Esse autem perfectam redemptionem ipsam cognitionem inenarabilis magnitudinis But that the very knowledge of the vnspeakeable maiestie was perfect Redemption Epiph. haer 36. After the foresaide Marcus came Heracleon taking his occasiō of Marcus yet not redeeming any more as he did but otherwise redimens videlicet ad finem vitae eos c. at the houre of their death he redeemed his followers powring on the heade of the partie eyther oyle mingled with water or baulme water such againe was the vnitie of these Heracleonites together with Marcus his madde inuocations and some others All this to this end that by vertue of such anointing and such Inuocations his body being lefte here his Anima Soule being cast of apud Opificē where the Angel or God Creator is his Interior homo Inwarde man might inuisibly passe the said Creator them that are beneath about him so scape vp to his proper place aboue all specially if withal he could remember to say to the Creator those other powers as Heracleon had instructed him The wordes are to be séen in Epiphanius who at length concludeth al this geare saith Et de Redemptione quidē haec sunt quae ad nos deuenerunt And concerning the redemption this is all that hath come to my knowledge Now this forsooth maketh much against our Solemnization of Mariage much also against our Baptisme or baptizing with water And euen as muche against our oyle in Baptisme or Chrisme made of oyle and baulme after Baptisme as much also against our Anealing at the houre of death and our prayers for men after their death howbeit of praying for the dead in all this was neuer a worde neyther in it selfe nor in any lykenesse of it vnlesse you will therevnto liken those wordes that the Heracleonites were taught to say after their death I know not to whom that they myght goe inuisible And yet you doe so triumph in the Heracleonites that you are vp with them against vs in moe places also saying The Heracleonites as Augustine witnesseth came yet a step more towardes the Papistes Pur. 417. for they would Redeeme their dead after a new manner namely by oyle balme water and inuocations saide ouer their heades in the Hebrew tongue And againe Of the Heracleonites you learned to anoint men at the point of death with oyle and balme Ar. 22. and to cast water vpon dead men with Inuocations Epiphani lib. 1. Tom. 3. Haeres 36. Euen as of the foresaide heretikes wée learned to Baptize men and to marrie men Who séeth not rather that those heretikes tooke their rites of the Catholike rites with such mutation as they thought good so as nowe the Caluinistes haue made them out of our Masse a Communion of bread onely and wine But if the Heracleonites fayle you Pur. 417. Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes All those poyntes I did put in your wordes in the thirde Chapter But how doe you nowe proue the same Because Tertullian was a Montanist Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 4 and he hath all these poyntes in his Bookes that he made being a Montanist speciallye in hys Booke De anima where also he telleth a Myracle that confyrmeth prayers to profite the deade this is all your proofe But I
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme