he Luther shewed his allowance of their iudgement We answered that he so sayde for that they brought very probable reasons for that their iudgement But he still charged Luther with blasphemie for saying that some doe very probably affirme that the Epistle of Iames was not written by the Apostle Saint Iames nor worthie the spirite of an Apostle and vrged vs to answere what opinion we had of that Epistle meaning to intangle vs with that Dilemma either to condemne Luther or else to doubt of the Epistle as Luther saith that some probablie doe We answered that our Church doubteth not of that Epistle but receiueth it as Canonical readeth it in our Churches expoūdeth it in our scholes and alleageth it for confirmation of doctrine Notwithstanding for Luther or any other to say that some haue very probably affirmed that Epistle not to be written by Saint Iames nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is no blasphemie It is blasphemie blasphemie quoth he pronoūcing those words with disdainefull countenance and voyce It is soone said quoth we but not so easely proued I will proue it quoth he to be blasphemie by two reasons and thus he framed a syllogisme The Gospell of Saint Iohn and the Epistle of Saint Iames were written by the same spirite But to say that some doe probably affirme the Gospell of Saint Iohn not to be written by Saint Iohn nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is blasphemie Therefore to say that like of Saint Iames Epistle is blasphemy Answere was made that the Maior was Petitio Principij the challenging of the graunt of that which chiefly is in controuersie For those that so say of Saint Iames Epistle doubt whether it was written by the same Spirite that the Gospell of Saint Iohn was or no and that still resteth for you to proue said we And here Master Campion when he coulde not denie that he required that to be graunted to him which he should haue proued was put to silence and had no more to replie Then was his second reason called for but none could be found Then saide one of them Why is not Saint Iames Epistle called the Catholicke Epistle of Saint Iames Howe doe you then denie it to be Canonicall It was said that that was a simple reason For whereas other Epistles of the Apostles were written vnto speciall Cities people or persons this of Saint Iames for that it was written commonly to all the tribes of the Iewes dispersed was called Catholike or generall Then sayd we to the auditorie You haue heard that Luther doeth much commend this Epistle of Saint Iames as good and profitable and Master Campion alleadgeth that he calleth it contentious puffed vp drie or barren stuffed with strawe and vnworthie the Apostolike spirit Whereby sayd we ye may see the diuersitie or rather contrarietie of Luthers wordes and Master Campions reporte and so may ye iudge of his synceritie trueth which he vseth likewise continually Then saide Master Campion that Luther himselfe and others had purged these workes and taken away all such places as that was and the like that ministred such occasions of offence as that did and he said he woulde procure from the Emperours Maiestie and the Duke of Bauaria and from another Prince whose name we remember not the true copyes of those bookes to be sent to the Queenes Maiestie Which wordes he rising vp from the forme whereon he sate pronounced with so great contention of voice and with such gesture casting vp his armes beating vpon his booke that one of vs challenged him therefore demaunding why he vsed such outragious speach and behauiour He answered for that so many yong Catholiques were present there he woulde not by any faint defending of the cause giue them occasion of offence Whereby we vnderstande howe he would haue behaued him selfe might he haue obteined a disputation among the youth of the Uniuersities trusting they woulde be caryed away many of them by such his bolde and confident dealings and actions And we saide further to Master Campion that if Luther had purged his books where he first reiected Saint Iames Epistle as Master Campion saith he hath sithen receiued and much commended it with whatreason hath Master Campion charged vs vpon his surmise of Luthers first writing which doth no where appeare as reiecting Saint Iames Epistle He should rather haue commended vs who doe and alwayes haue allowed of that Epistle and should haue praised Luther who after the example of Saint Augustine and other ancient and godly writers had amended in his writing that which vpon better aduise he misliked Then we turning to the auditorie sayd that seeing all the printed Bookes of Luther extant that we could finde doe conteine such commendations of Saint Iames Epistle as they had heard and that Master Campion hath charged Luther so contrarily to all his printed bookes wherein he commendeth that Epistle and therby also chargeth vs as reiecting it who euer haue receiued it they might we said take Master Campions trueth and synceritie to be as it is vntill he haue brought out his copies from the Emperour and the Duke of Bauaria which he nor any liuing we beleeue can euer doe But Master Campion said that might he haue his own bookes from Oxeforde he woulde shewe that in Luther which he had written of him Whereunto it was answered that if he woulde let vs knowe where they were we would become humble suters to their honors that he might both enioye his bookes and that the partie who had them in keeping might be without daunger But this woulde he not consent vnto Then Hart one of his fellowes saide that he being at Rome heard Bellarminus the reader of controuersies there affirme that the wordes reported by Campion in his booke were in that preface of Luther and that therefore vpon his worde it was so Whereunto we answered that neither his wordes nor the testimonie of Bellarminus were of sufficient credite to carry away such a matter as that was without better proofe specially so many and most manifest proofes in Luthers printed bookes being to the contrarie who agreeth with vs in allowing the said Epistle and that therefore Master Campion hath most impudently alleadged this place of Luther as a profe that we should reiect S. Iames Epistle Then Master Beale said It is not materiall to vs if Luther had once so written but he asked Master Campion whether euer he did read him selfe any such wordes in Luther as he in his booke doeth charge him with or not Whereto he answered that in a treatise made by Doctor Lee sometime Archbishoppe of Yorke against that booke of Luther intituled De captiuitate Babilonica he had read these wordes alleadged as he had set them downe in his booke Being againe asked whether either vpon his othe or vpon his credit he would say to the presence there assembled that he had euer seene the places alleaged by him in his booke
when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make
Queenes Maiestie was it I pray you so outragious in the Latine tongue as seuerally to admonish Master Campion him selfe without the vnderstanding of the common auditorie for one of vs to say Qui hic mos est mi homo Quis hic gestus Et loqueris pultas fores Gloriosus miles Proijcis ampullas sesquipedalia verba We may bee bolde to saye that considering Master Campions bragging in English and the admonition of the other in Latine there was no such outrage as they doe note But this they much disdaine that he sayde once Os impudens Truth it is but vpon his often and fierce affirmation that all the printed bookes of Luther in Englande were false and vpon Poundes odious interpellations as we knowe you to be a good Terence man and his most scornefull lookes through his fingers staring vpon him cōtinually whiles he was reasoning with Master Campion to put him out of his memorie hee being offended both with Poundes mockings wordes and lookes and with Campions shameles sayings brake out with Os impudens as he thinketh most deseruedly on their partes Yea but he vsed the word obgannire or oggannire Hee denieth not but comming by commandement to conferre with Campion onely when two or three of them spake together and many other of them muttered and sometime brake out into scornefull laughter he sayd Siccine tam multos oggannire obstrepere This is the rage and railing wherewith the Pamphleters do charge him They say that he by a Commissioners checke put the priests that would haue spoken and Master Sherwin to silence The trueth is that though we were sent onely to Master Campion at that time yet others did speake sometime and Master Sherwin specially very much almost as much as did Master Campion Whereupon not we but Master Lieutenant told him that he should be dealt with another time and willed him then to quiet himselfe Hereupon it is that the Pamphleters say wee should haue vsed them as the Queenes prisoners Wee say they should haue remembred and behaued them selues as becommed prisoners and not as Ruffians in all libertie or licentiousnes rather as they in deede and specially Master Campion in the forenoone behaued himself And yet the Pamphleters are not ashamed to write The Catholikes vsed no such wordes as did the Protestants and one of them specially but being passing modest went directly and soberly toche cause And againe God gaue Master Campion speaking very mildely as hee euer vsed such modestie in answering Thus write they c. Then surely his speaking did much differ from his writing as is to bee seene by that his chalenge and booke the most bragging and vaine glorious that euer was written Nowe Sherwin hath his contrarie commendation of whome they write thus But Master Sherwin like him selfe with excellent courage spake Master Sherwin here notably tooke the aduantage Crosse blowes were continually giuen to the Protestantes by Master Campion and Master Sherwin Master Campion and Master Sherwin framed their reasons exceedingly well with many such like commendations But of vs they write The Protestantes shufled vp the matter They answered to an argument of the Catholikes there be foure termes in this syllogisme and no further answere Silence here was their answere M. Daye hauing belike of olde collection an other place in store spent much time in that impertinent question The Deane of Paules when he could doe naught els grinded with his teeth for despite rage And so the Catholikes by the iudgement of those that were not wholly wedded to will did get the goale Scilicet But the Pamphleters labour about nothing more then to deliuer Master Campion from the note and blemish of ignorance in the Greeke tongue whereof one of them writeth thus The Deane of Paules and Master Beale shewed great ostentation towardes Campion in offring him a Greeke Testament to reade a text of Paul To whome Master Beale said Graecum est non potest legi calling vpon him to reade if hee could c to the others vtter defacing if he could haue procured it But our good Lord gaue the other such modestie in answering him as al indifferent persons were edified by it And refusing there to reade wherby Beale and the rest were flatly then persuaded it was for lacke of skill in the ende it fell out that Saint Basill was offered him in Greeke and the booke holden him by a minister wherein he read skilfully and by the hearing of all the auditorie confessed the text to be as they alleaged it answering it as before And withall quoth he let this man witnesse whether I can reade Greeke or no who in open hearing answered Uery well Whereupon being confounded We confesse quoth the Deane of Paules you can reade Greeke whereat some might haue blushed if they had had any such good humour in them Thus writeth one of them Another of them reporteth the matter thus It happened in processe of their disputations by occasion incident there was talke of a text of Scripture which forsoth must bee viewed by Master Campion to make the matter most plausible as the Protestāts imagined they caused a Greeke testamēt to be brought vnto him which he refused to take saying merily to his contrarie it shal be yours At which doing many laughed condemning him for ignorance of the tongue and therefore gestingly by the Protestants it was said Graecum est non potest legi It is Greeke perhaps it cannot be read Whereunto Master Campion gaue no answere but rested at the matter as a man vnable to reade Greeke or to vnderstand the same But it chaunced not long after that the Protestantes as they had prepared before were to alleage a place out of Saint Basil the Greeke doctor and againe thinking to giue the Catholikes another bob they commanded againe the booke of that ancient father to be giuen to Master Campion that he might reade whome before they derided as not able to doe the same But he tooke the booke and hauing one of their ministers at his elbowe both read and gaue the sense of the writer and bad him beare witnes that hee was able to reade and vnderstande Greeke whereat there was some admiration made among the Protestantes and he was demanded why hee did not so before who mildely answered that the print was ouer small Why saide they had you not declared so much before that had bene sufficiēt The like triall they made of an other Catholike to wit Maister Sherwin who by report of his fellowes and companions is very well seene in the Greeke and Hebrewe tongues yet hee tooke the booke and viewed it but openly did not reade which was imagined that he did to be accounted ignorant in the tongue or rather for that he was willed to holde his peace for that there should bee other times to talke Thus they write of this matter farre more largely and earnestly then of any other But the truthe is that when we had read the
Canons of euery Councill but this was that consent the agreement of the whole Council the whole Council answered Etiam domine Campion Shew me the booke Fulke If I do not shew it then let me beare the blame Camp Well admit it be so first they might meane that Angels and spirits had a certaine definite substance of their being which they called their bodies Fulke Then belike they knewe not howe to speake but I am sure they knew what difference there was betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance body if they had so meant they waÌ„ted not words to haue expressed their meaning Camp They might thinke they had certaine subtil bodies according to the formes that they did take as Augustine and some other haue helde besides this was not an error of faith Fulke Ergo it was of maners belike Camp It was a smal error neither of faith nor maners Fulke I proue it was an error of faith We beleeue that God is the creator of all things visible and inuisible but if Angels and spirites be visible then are there no inuisible things whereof wee beleeue God to be the creator Besides they do not onely make theÌ„ visible but circumscriptible also and therefore they do meane bodies and not substances generally for onely bodies are circumscriptible Camp They meane not such bodies as we haue but such as they tooke how could they els be painted Fulke But they say they were visible and circumscriptible Campion Because they doe Assumere corpora not because they had bodies in deede but seemed to haue Fulke But the Councill saith they haue proper bodies of their own are circuÌ„scriptible haue bene seen in their proper bodies Campion It was no decree Fulke Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine All the holy Synode confirmed it saying Euen so my Lord. Campion Many a saint in heauen haue thought as hard matters as this and they are saued Fulke I deny not that but yet this was an error of faith neither doth euery error in faith shut out a man from saluation Camp In deede so you say in your booke against Bristow that the Church may erre in matters of fayth for you say that Inuocation of Saints and prayer for the dead were errors in faith and yet that they which vsed them are saued I wonder therefore why you crie out so lowde in your pulpits against Inuocation of saintes and haue nothing more in your mouthes theÌ„ Blasphemie Blasphemie when the Catholikes mainteine it Fulke I say in deede that Inuocation of saints as it was held of some of the later sort of auncient fathers was an error in faith but yet not such as could exclude them from being members of the true Church and yet the same error as it is vsed of Papistes is blasphemous These fathers helde the foundation Faith and therefore that error was not damnable in them Campion In deede you say that if a man haue faith what errors soeuer he haue besides it is well enough so long as hee holde your faith it makes no matter what errors soeuer â—…e hold with it hee cannot perish Fulke You slander my booke I neuer writte so Camp Let me see your booke and I will shew it you Fulk In what booke will you shewe it Campion In your booke against Bristowe Fulke You shal see the booke at our next meeting and if you be able to shewe any such wordes or matter either I will lose my head I may say and haue sayd that the Fathers had their errors among which some allowed inuocation of Saintes and yet holding the foundation they may be saued Camp Uery well that is all one why should you then make so much a doe against inuocation of Saintes Why doe you not say in your pulpits that it is an indifferent matter Fulke Because as you holde it it is in deede a blasphemous errour but as the Fathers helde it it was no blasphemous error but yet an errour and no indifferent thing Goade Are you ignorant that they which hold the foundation though they erre in some particular pointes of doctrine they may be saued Shall euery particular point of errour in doctrine depriue a man of saluation holding soundly the foundation Christ Campion Well he saieth it in his booke c. If a man haue onely faith it maketh no matter what errours he hold beside Fulke You shamefully slaunder my booke and I knowe you can shewe no such thing out of my booke Nowe you haue graunted so many absurdities ye know not how to make vp the matter but by slaundering my booke Campion I haue graunted no absurdities but I will defend them bring me the booke and I will shew it you And thereupon I challenge you you and I at Cambridge M. Doctor to trie it Fulke Uery well Sir you shew your selfe according to your publike challenge more bold then wise you that haue challenged all the Realme no maruaile if you challenge me Campion I wil stand to my challenge and here I challenge you to dispute with you at Cambridge if you dare Fulke It lieth not in mee to remoue you to Cambridge I came hither vpon commandement at this time otherwise you are not the man whom I would chuse take for to be mine aduersarie if you were at libertie There are twentie of your side whom I would rather take if I should chuse mine equal which make no such challenge Non tibiplus cordis sed minus oris inest Goade Your Church denyeth an article of faith ergo it erreth c. Campion God forbid it doeth not Goade You deny the bodily ascention of Christ into heauen ergo an article of faith Campion We do not deny it Goade You deny that he is bodily in heauen for you say that he is bodily in earth but he can not bee both in heauen and earth at once if he haue a true bodie Campion I deny your argument For he is and may bee in many places at once touching his body Goade It is contrary 〈◊〉 the nature of a true bodie to bee in many places at once For a true naturall body must haue the properties of a very naturall and true body and so you make Christ to haue a phantasticall and not a true body You say at the same time he is in earth and in heauen Saint Augustine confuting the likâ—… errour of those that denied that Christ had a true body saith Cauendum no ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus We must beware that we doe not so maintaine the diuinitie of Christ that we take away the true nature of a body Iesus Christus vbique est per id quod Deus est in coelo autem per id quod homo c. Iesus Christ is present euery where according to his Godhead but he is in heauen according to his manhoode And in Ioh. tractatu 3. Corpus Domini in quo resurrexit vno
of the weakenesse of his stile is in the Apostle an humilitie comming from the holy Ghost Charke You answere not to the Argument therefore to auoyde the cauil consider the Syllogisme againe in this sort Whatsoeuer is the worde of God is full sound and perfect it doeth neither aske nor neede pardon in any respect But the second booke of Marchabees doth both neede aske pardon in some respect Therefore it is not the worde of God Norton If you will stay a while and speake leasurely you shall haue the Argument written and while it is writing if you will haue any thing added or changed it shall be done It will be more profitable for the hearers and greater ease for your selues Camp With a good will I answere In it selfe and for it selfe it neither needeth nor asketh pardon but for circumstance In respect of dainty eares it may aske pardon Charke Why Campion shall the holy Ghost begge pardon in respect of daintie eares Camp Syr Put this in also that I say it was in respect of the stile for the forme and the maner of it Norton Well I haue put it in so Charke Let him put in all his shiftes helpes clogging his answeres as much as he will we will cast the clogges vpon his owne heeles and thus I reason agaynst all your cauils Whatsoeuer is in the worde of God is all of the holy Ghost both for matter for stile and for circumstance and the holy Ghost asketh no pardon for any of these Therfore the 2. booke of the Machabees asking pardon is not of the holy Ghost nor canonical scripture Here Campion â—…eeing hastie before master Norton had written it through out master Norton willed him to stay a little Campion replied that it was losse of time To which Master Norton answered againe that it was a gaining of the time He desired that the word all might bee inferred in the Antecedent Charke I sayd all Norton So it is and rightly set downe Camp Then I answere thus This circumstance of asking pardon is of the holy Ghost for it is a speach of humilitie proceeding from the holy Ghost as is Saint Paules speach Rudis sum sermone I am rude in speach Et non in persuasibilibus verbis humanae sapientiae Not in the perswasible wordes of mans wisedome Charke Rudis sum sermone commeth oft and rudely in and yet the alledging of it hath bene disproued long ago Neuerthelesse seeing it pleaseth you so wel it shal be a weapoÌ„ of your owne giuing to vse against your selfe For the Apostle of purpose auoyding the wisdome of mans eloquence doth iustifie that which his aduersaries called rudenesse of speach as lawfull and good Neither doth he as you imagin confesse any want or craue pardon Therefore your example is false deceitfull and vnlearned It is a trim thing for you to abuse the multitude vnder opinion of great learning and to match those that are no scriptures with scriptures sometime affirming one thing and another time another sometime that the Apostles speach is rude and the stile base and needeth pardon in respect of daintie eares and now last that it needeth no pardon but is done for humilitie whereas the holy Ghost neuer asketh pardon of man for any thing he doth for that were to bring God vnder man and make the spirit of God subiect to the allowance or disallowance of sinfull flesh Camp I answere that neither this of the Macchabees nor Pauls speach hath need of pardon in it selfe Charke It is too too much absurd to accuse the holy ghost of waste and needles speach For if there needed no pardon it was not according to the holy Ghost to craue it Camp I haue said neither this nor the Apostles speach needed any pardon in it selfe and yet it was not waste and needlesse because it proceeded of humilitie Charke Will you charge the holy ghost with dissimulation speaketh he one thing and meaneth another Camp I say it was not waste because it proceeded of humilitie to craue pardon Charke Wel I proue my assertion against this your imagined humilitie of the holy Ghost to sinfull flesh Whatsoeuer is without cause is waste and needlesse But your self confesse it to be without cause for the holy ghost to craue pardon Therefore by your owne confession it is waste and needlesse Camp I denie the Minor For there is cause For in trueth the stile is simple Charke How often haue you granted the Minor saying he needed not to aske pardon now as forgetting your selfe you say there is cause of asking pardoÌ„ For say you in truth the stile is simple Your speaches are contradictory Set it downe that yâ— aduersarie is not at one with him selfe Besides he was driuen before to grant the stile is not base or simple Camp I haue set downe no contrarietie but in respect Char. In respect is a simple shift Are not these contradictorie propositions He needeth not pardon but asketh it in humilitie and He needeth pardon for in trueth the stile is simple Camp I pray you read the place of the Maccabees Charke Thus you retire and aske moreouer that which needeth not For the place is well knowen and was read before But I will read it againe Et si quidem bene vt historiae competit hoc ipse velim si autem minus dignè concedendum est mihi This I would haue all the companie marke and vnderstand whom you labor with indirect speaches to abuse draw from the truth that whether the authour of this booke excuse himself craue pardon in these wordes for his stile or for his storie neither can be of the holy ghost because as hath bene proued at large the holy ghost faileth nothing at all in any point of speach of matter or of circumstance Thus your distinctions and cause fall together Camp I haue answered you in what respect he craueth pardon and if that cannot satisfie you leaue it to God and this companie to iudge of Charke Sure your satisfaction is verie weake farre from satisfying God that hateth such fond distinctioÌ„s to darken his word or those of the companie that seeke to be edified But you giue me new occasion to prosecute this matter What thinke you therefore of the storie of Iudith touching the dressing and decking of her selfe with apparell and ornaments fittest to deceiue Holofernes eies and what say you to her lies and praier that he might be taken with the snare of his eies looking vpon her the speaches vntrue and the action vnchaste in outward apparance were they thinke you of the holy Ghost Camp I maruell not that you so speake of me when you so speake of a blessed woman to bring so holy an action into doubt Surely you greatly offend me in so doing Charke I speake of the words and storie as it is plainly written she prayeth saying Capiatur laqueo oculorum suorum in me Percuties eum ex
⧠A true report of the Disputation or rather priuate Conference had in the Tower of London with Ed. Campion Iesuite the last of August 1581. Set downe by the Reuerend learned men them selues that dealt therein Whereunto is ioyned also a true report of the other three dayes conferences had there with the same Iesuite Which nowe are thought meete to be published in print by authoritie IMPRINTED AT LONDON by Christopher Barker Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie Ianuarij 1. 1583. ERRATA A. signifieth the first page B. the second The numbers shewe the line  Faulte Correction C. ii a. line last commoda for commoda D. ii a. 25. in the margent Normam Limam D. ii b. 36. both loth D. iiii a. 27. lewd lowd D. iiii b. 19 Proofe processe H. iiii line last by in D d. iiii b. 9. iustified infected To the Reader MAster Campions Booke being at large answered shortly after our conference with him which was concerning certaine points in the beginning of the fayd booke onely and our sayd conference also being partly remembred in the saide answere of his booke though we had immediatly vpon the sayd conference set downe in writing certaine notes of the same out of our fresh memorie to all euents Yet we thought there was no cause the whole booke being confuted why we should publish our dealing with him concerning a fewe pointes in the beginning thereof onely specially Master Campion being now dead and not to replie thereunto himselfe so that we layd aside our notes and without all thought of any publishing of them at all But there hauing bene sithen by others the fauourers of him and his cause partly in print but in written Pamphlets much more dispersed wherein Master Campions surmised glorious conquest against vs is exceedingly set forth and some of them so confidently that in the conclusion thereof the Authour saithe The Catholikes by the iudgement of those that were not wedded wholy to will did get the Goale And againe In my soule I protest that in any indifferent iudgement the aduerse protestaunts were quite confounded and if I were not a Catholique already the onely hearing of that conference would haue made me one Vpon such vntruthes and impudencie of such writers we were partly of our selues enclined and by the often and earnest exhortations of others importuned and by some of great authoritie almost inforced to set downe the true report of the saide conference whereby we trust that all those Catholiques as they woulde be called that haue any sparke of shamefastnesse left may blush for Master Campions sake being so manifestly deprehended in so many lyes so braggingly aduouched and in print in the Lattin tongue published to the worlde Surely we doe thinke our selues and may say in trueth that if we had bene so openly conuicted so many wayes and in such sorte as Master Campion then was we should while we liued be ashamed to shewe our faces And we haue indeede heretofore out of our fresh memories then made reporte of diuers partes of this our conference vnto diuers persons as occasion hath serued and not dissembled that we found not Campion such a man as by his challenge and booke and other mens reportes of him we looked for and that vpon this our conference with him we verely thought the booke published in his name to haue bene none of his But by such Pamphlets as these be and like reports by word his surmised victories against vs were so speedily suread abroade that diuers Gentlemen and others neither vnlearned nor of them selues euill affected gaue not much credite to our sayings of that value is the first report in some eares and heades which hath among other things moued vs not a litle to set downe at the last this our true report of our saide conference vpon hope that trueth in time may take place We doe knowe they will cauill at this as our biting of a dead man whome being aliue they will say we could not all matche But the trueth is we doe defende our selues against the backebitings of many slaunderous reporters who doe yet liue and lurke in euery corner by false reportes and writings continually indeuouring to suppresse or at the least to blemish the trueth vpon euery least occasion offered or sought As first they began so they continue For whereas diuers of vs at diuers times had conference with Campion and his fellowes the time being such that so many of vs as could get leaue when we had once conferred with him his fellowes departed into the countrey from whence we were called and others remaining in the citie assaying whether it might please God that they coulde doe any good with them to their reformation this was foorthwith by reportes and pamphlets euery where so framed and dispersed as though Campion like some great beare or Lyon rather as they woulde haue him seeme had shaken vs all off like cowardly curres one after another But that religion can not long stand that is vnderpropt and stayed by such impudent lyes as amongest many other things may well appeare to all that with indifferencie without foreiudgement will reade and consider our true reporte of the sayd conference Which why we haue not published it before and why we doe publish it nowe we haue shewed the true causes howsoeuer they shall cauill that vpon misliking of our parts we haue not published it hitherto and find fault also that we haue published it nowe Surely we with good conscience may affirme this our report in the substance of matter to be most true though our memorie could not alwayes retaine the order or the very wordes wherein euery sentence was vttered A. Nowell W. Daije A true report of the conference had with Campion and others by the Deane of Paules and the Deane of Windsor in the Tower of London the last of August the 23. yere of the Queenes Maiestie and of the Lord 1581. WE the Deane of Paules the Deane of Windsor being sent to the Tower to haue conference with Master Campion and his fellowes in matters of Religion and by order of Master Lieutenant admitted into the Chappel of the Tower whither the said Campion and others were brought shortly after our meeting sayd to Master Campion that we came thither to the end to do him good if it might please God to giue such good successe howsoeuer he or any other should thinke otherwise of vs. And because it should not seeme to him that our meaning was to take any aduantage against him by our sudden comming to him we our selues being prepared for the Conference we sayd we intended to deale with him in no other matters then such as were conteined in his owne booke by him so much studied written and so lately published in print wherin he hauing made so large a Challenge as he had we sayde we thought he could not thinke himselfe to be suddenly taken as unprouided Of which speach he seemed not much to
mislike onely he sayd that he vnderstoode not of our comming Then we beginning with the first part of his sayd booke did demaund of him with what reason he could charge the Queenes Maiesties most mercifull gouernment and vs that at this time professe the Gospel as he did in yâ— Preface of his said booke with unused and strange crueltie and torments practised vpon his fellowes in religion seeing that the Authors and professors of their Religion had most cruelly burnt aliue so many thousands of vs for the maintenance of our Religion onely besides diuers other wayes of most horrible torments whereas none of them was euer executed for Religion but either for treason or some other notorious crime punishable with death by the Lawes of the Realme Whereunto he answered that he was punished for Religion himselfe and had bene twise on the Racke and that racking was more grieuous then hanging and that he had rather chuse to be hanged then racked Whereunto one of vs sayd that belike Master Campion being the Popes tender Pernell accounteth a litle racking of him selfe to be more crueltie then the roasting quicke of many thousands of vs. You must quoth Master Campion consider the cause the cause why and not the punishment onely It hath bene euer your maner sayd we not onely to vse petitione principij but totius also not only to require a principal point in controuersie but euen the whole it self to be graunted vnto you as that your cause is good and that you be the true Church of Christ as you continually presume and take vnto you But thanks be to God the contrarie hath bene so prooued that a great part of Christendome doeth euidently see it And many thousands who were before of your Church haue fled to vs from it as from the synagogue of Antichrist And concerning his racking Master Lieutenant being present sayde that he had no cause to complaine of racking who had rather seene then felt the racke and admonished him to vse good speache that hee gaue not cause to be vsed with more seuerity For although said he you were put to the racke yet notwithstanding you were so fauourablie vsed therein as being taken off you could and did presently go thence to your lodging without helpe and vse your handes in writing and all other partes of your body which you could not haue done if you had bene put to that punishment with any such extremitie as you speake of Besides this Master Beale one of the Clarks of her Maiesties priuie Counsell being by chaunce present demaunded of him before all the companie there assembled whether that being on the racke he were examined vpon any point of Religion or no Whereunto he answered that he was not in deede directly examined of Religion but moued to confesse in what places he had bene conuersant since his repaire into the Realme Master Beale sayde that this was required of him because many of his fellowes and by likelihood he him selfe also had reconciled diuers of her Highnes subiectes to the Romish Church and had attempted to withdrawe them from their obedience due to their naturall Prince and Soueraigne Whereunto he answered that forasmuch as the Christians in olde time being commanded to deliuer vp the bookes of their Religion to such as persecuted them refused so to doe and misliked with them that did so calling them Traditores he might not betray his Catholike brethren which were as he sayd the temples of the holy Ghost But it was replied by Master Beale that it was conuenient in policie for the Prince to vnderstande what such as were sent from the Bishop of Rome her Maiesties and the Realmes mortall enemie did within her dominions and to knowe her foes from her faithful subiects specially in such a time as this wherein we liue that this inquirie did not touch the cause of Religion After this we came to the matter of his booke And first where he chargeth vs that we haue nowe of a sudden cut off many goodly and principall partes of the holy Scriptures from the whole body thereof of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as hee writeth and for example and proofe thereof he nameth first the Epistle of Saint Iames which Luther that flagitious Apostata saith he in the Preface of the same Epistle and in his booke De captiuitate Babilonica nameth contentious puffed vp drie or barren as a thing stuffed with strawe and iudgeth it vnworthie the Apostolique spirit wee answered that if Luther had so written yet Master Campion did vs wrong to charge vs with violating of the Maiestie of the holy Bible for reiecting of the sayde Epistle of S. Iames who doe and alwayes haue receiued the same Epistle Yet we prayed him that he would shewe these wordes in the places by him noted which he sayd he would if he had the bookes The booke wherein was Luthers Preface to that Epistle being deliuered him when he had read some part of the sayd Preface and found that Luther did allowe and commend that Epistle as in deede he doeth testifying that though it were reiected of some olde writers yet he commended it and tooke it to be good and profitable which wordes of Luther when Master Campion had read he shut the booke and sayde that it was not of the true edition We answered that the print was not lately published being almost fourtie yeeres sithence and that we had searched all other printes that we could come by and found them to agree with this and that we thought there was no other and therefore we prayed him that he would shewe some edition wherein it was so set downe as he alleaged it in his booke He sayd he thought it was so as he had alleaged in the same booke of Luther in the Dutch tongue Then we offered to bring him the Dutch booke for the triall of the trueth of the Latin translation but he refused to see the same But it was aduouched vnto him as the trueth is in deede that it was likewise in the Dutch booke as he had read it in the Latin for that we had made conference thereof Then he desired to see Luthers booke De captiuitate Babilonica This booke also we deliuered to him and desired that he would shewe those wordes there He read the wordes in Latin which are these in effect I passe ouer saith Luther that many doe very probablie affirme that this Epistle is not Saint Iames the Apostles nor worthie the Apostolike spirit Here Master Campion thought that he had founde at the least that Luther had sayd that the sayd Epistle was not worthie the Apostolike spirit But wee prayed him to consider that Luther spake of other mens iudgement and not of his owne as in the same place is most euident to see and also before in his Preface to that Epistle he expresly deuideth his iudgement from theirs But Master Campion much vrged the wordes very probably whereby saith
and whether he knewe them to be true He answered that he wrote his booke as he traueiled and that he coulde not we knewe cary a librarie about with him and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes We said it was more credible that he brought the saide booke ouer with him readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published rather then that he did write it in his trauels hauing so much besides to do being destitute of his librarie as he said which is the vsual maner as we said of you all hūting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing But when howsoeuer you did write your booke said we you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes so cōfidently to publish in print these slaūderous reportes of such men as you haue named being not able to make any proofe of that wherof you accuse them And vpon these such good grounds of yours you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all as those that haue rased mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke is taken out of the Centuries written by Illiricus and others which booke being giuen into his handes and the like demaunde made as before he would neither reade nor once open the booke neither yet made he any answere thereto knowing that he could make no exception to the print as he did before to Luthers bookes seeing that booke was neuer printed but once And besides where they as Historiographers had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome Eusebius Epiphanius and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames of Tobias the bookes of Macchabees c he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible much lesse that we had so done as he doeth in his booke charge vs. For which causes chiefly he would not as much as once open those bookes and for the same cause he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius whome and vs by him he had likewise falsely charged When Master Campion could not shew these words out of any of those books by him alleaged nor any good matter to proue thē nor vs suddenly to haue rased mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause to haue done then did we shewe him that we had not nowe suddenly as he vntruely reported cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures that be commonly called Canonicall and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many and are called Apocrypha according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church aboue a thousand yeres since more And for the proofe hereof we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum where he thus writes of the Epistle of Saint Iames named by Master Campion The Epistle of Saint Iames is sayd to be published by some other man vnder his name And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke that it is denied of many to be his by reason of the difference of the stile To this Master Campion answered that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement but reported what others sayde of them We answered if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles and did not him selfe gainesay it that it was a manifest token that he did not greatly mislike their sayings And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before those Epistles were doubted of you doe vs great wrong sayd we to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them gladly receaue and allowe them We alleaged againe S. Hierome In Prologo Galeato et Epistola ad Paulinum where hee sheweth his owne iudgement what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall and which haue bene doubted of which Epistles quoth we haue bene written and printed in all Bibles by the space of these thousand yeres and more to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha from the true Canonicall and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha for the which cause as it seemeth hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum as an helmet for defence against that error But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes answered to these allegations that Hierome did Iudaizare and more was not ◅ayd to these places We also alleadged Eusebius who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament which be vndoubtedly true nameth also such as were gainesayd and writes thus Quibus vero contradicitur c. those bookes that are gainesayde though they be knowen to many be these The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the latter of Peter the second and third of Iohn And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely the sayd Epistle of S. Iames to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said and as we alleadged them and that when he wrote it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes that he called Apocrypha but seeing by the Church that was by the Councill of Carthage now also by the Councill of Trident they were receiued for Canonicall it was blasphemie they said to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes To that was replied that the Synode of Laodicea helde them for Apocrypha Yea said they but that Synode was not generall No more was that of Carthage said we No said they but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo So was quoth we the Synode of Laodicea which helde them for Apocrypha confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo as there is to be seene But howe doth this agree that not long before you did saye absolutely that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils But said we these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical that was not before Canonicall For by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes there are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall one is the testimonie of the Church in which the authour liued
an ende And then turning vs to the auditorie we said You haue heard howe Master Campion in his printed booke hath charged vs as rasers manglers and spoylers of the holy Scriptures of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as he saith You haue heard how he would proue vs so to be by certeine places by him in his said printed booke noted as being the wordes of Luther and others in their bookes You haue heard and seene proued by the bookes them selues that there is no such thing to be founde in those places of their bookes as he hath set downe but onely that S. Hierome and Eusebius aboue a thousande yeere sithen doubted of the authoritie of those Epistles bookes And you haue heard and it is vniuersally knowen that S. Hieroms Prologue and Epistle wherein he noteth those bookes to be Apocrypha haue bene ioyned with all Bibles that haue bene written and printed euer since S. Hieromes time by the space of a xi hundred yeeres and more vntill now of late sithen the Tridētine Councill some Popish Printers haue left them out And you haue heard that not onely now of late the Councill Tridentine hath made the Apocrypha of equal authoritie with the vndoubted Canonical scriptures but also that it is set down in the B. of Romes Canon law that his Decretal epistles are to be numbred together among the Canonical scriptures so finally you see what iniurie these men do thēselues to the holy scriptures what blasphemy they haue cōmitted in matching their fables with the Canonical scriptures who do most vniustly charge vs with those crimes Sherwin said but you should haue told withall what we haue answered to all those pointes We said your answere is to be looked for when you can bring foorth your copies which you speake of and promised for in any bookes by you named extant and to be had there is nothing of that which M. Campion hath set downe to be found And here the time being spent we made an end for that forenoones conferēce The after noones conference IN the fore noones conference both Master Campion himselfe others of his companions had oftentimes required vs that we woulde deale with them in some matter of doctrine and leaue that course that we began with in the examining of his booke Whereunto we answered that we were minded if the time would suffer vs to examine other partes of his booke and lay it open to the audience there howe that as he had most vntruly charged Luther and others with the mangling and spoyling of the bodie of the holy Scriptures in the beginning of his booke so had he likewise most vntruly and impudently in other places slaundered other worthie men and vpon the same his good groundes he had charged vs all as rasers and manglers of the holy Scriptures And surely our opinion was that if any thing at all that laying open before his face of his continuall vntrueths which he hath so braggingly aduouched in his booke might haue reclaimed him For vndoubtedly he could neuer haue endured the manifestation of those his lyes as they were in the confutation of his booke shortly after set out had they bene layde open before his eyes which might manifestly appeare to all that did marke his gentle and milde behauiour and speach in the After noones conference in comparison of his bragging and lewde wordes vsed in the forenoone Notwithstanding at our meeting at after noone we sayde vnto Master Campion seeing your desire is so much to dispute in some matter of doctrine we will not refuse But first we pray you let vs qd we peruse the Canon that foloweth that which we last dealt with in the fore noone concerning the Popes Canons and the Canonicall Scriptures for that the time would not then suffer vs to reade it The wordes of Pope Leo the fourth there translated worde for worde are these For this cause I feare not to pronounce more plainely and with a loude voyce that he that is conuinced not to receiue indifferently the statutes of the holy fathers which we haue spoken of before which with vs are intituled by the name of Canons whether he be a Bishop a Clarke or a laye man that he is proued neither to beleeue nor to holde profitably and effectually to his effect the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels This saith Pope Leo. You may see quoth we whereunto this boldnesse of matching mens writings with the holy Canonical Scriptures is come Fore here Pope Leo with a loude voyce pronounceth that whosoeuer doeth not indifferently receiue the Canons is conuicted neither to reteine effectually nor beleeue the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels whereby he matcheth the beleeuing receiuing or refusing of his Canons with the beleeuing or refusing of the foure holy Gospels for so we said that the proofe of that Canon and the worde indifferently did importe Master Campion indeuoured very much to quallifie this worde indifferentèr indifferently and so to mollifie the Popes blasphemie if he coulde and he confessed that there was difference betweene the Euangelistes and other writers for that the Euangelistes and writers of the Scriptures coulde not erre in memorie or any other circumstance but Councils might be deceiued in some such small matters of circumstance As for example sayeth he I am bounde vnder paine of damnation to beleeue that Tobias dogge had a tayle because it is written he wagged his tayle It was sayd by vs that it became him not to deale so triflingly in matters of such waight Why then saith he if this example like you not take another I must beleeue that Saint Paul had a cloake because hee willeth Timothie to bring his cloake We said these thinges were nothing to purpose vnlesse hee could proue that such a promise was made to the bishop of Rome and his Coūcils that whatsoeuer they should determine was sure to be true and certaine They alleaged Christes saying Hee that heareth not the Church let him be reputed as a publicane and heathen We answered that text serued them for all purposes But first they must proue them selues to be the true Church before that text would belong vnto them And where they alleaged out of the 15. of the Actes So it seemeth to the holy Ghost and vs. Wee answered wee knewe well enough that that Councill was gouerned by the holy Ghost wherein the Apostles were president But what maketh that to the wicked Councils of Popes And after much reasoning about the worde indifferenter we said were that word put out yet were it blasphemie to saye that he that beleeueth not the Popes Canōs which are with other there mentioned beleeueth not the foure holy Gospels After this wee began our disputation concerning iustification both for that it is first of all other mentioned in your booke quoth we to Master Campion and both Luther and we all are most grieuously charged by you
sentences out of the Greeke Testament and Doctors once or twise our selues wee offered the Greeke Testament first and afterwardes Nazianzene in Greeke to Campion to reade that he might credit his owne eyes and that we alleaged their wordes truely But he refused to reade in the Greeke testament altogether as them selues do here confesse And when Saint Basill and Nazianzen in Greeke were offered to him to reade he said once or twise I knowe I knowe it is as ye haue alleaged which we tooke to be a shift to auoyde the reading of it him selfe But when he was vrged Master Stollard who stood by tooke the booke and held it to him he read but so softly as it were to him selfe that wee may with good conscience protest before God that we heard not one word so farre off was it that he read skilfully in the hearing of all the auditorie as they doe write But surely whosoeuer did knowe Campions vayne may thinke that hee would haue read in the hearing of al the auditorie in deede had he had any knowledge in that tongue and not so haue whispered to him selfe or in Master Stollardes eare Truthe it is that he saide Let this man witnes whether I can reade Greeke or no. But why did hee not reade so that not he alone but that all we might haue bene witnesses thereof But saye they Master Stollard said hee read very well They onely heard him so saye belike for of truth he said to vs If he did reade at all he read the worst that euer I heard which some of vs thought that Master Stollard spake for that wee hauing read those fewe wordes of Nazianzen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 once or twise before the booke was giuen Campion he might seeme out of his memorie to haue repeated them rather then to haue read them out of the booke Nowe that we should be in any admiration hereat as they write what cause was there For that we should aske him why he did not so much before who heard him then not reade one word or that the Deane of Pauls confounded should say We confesse you can reade Greeke or that there was any cause giuen why we should blush or be confounded are most impudent lies and most meete for such reporters Nay rather may all Papistes blush for Campions sake who making such a chalenge as though he had had all knowledge in all learning and languages when it came to the triall vpon conscience of his ignorance durst not reade openly one short sentence in Saint Basill or Nazianzen the bookes being of a large and faire print Surely wee before our comming thither vpon Campions owne bragging challenge and booke and other mens reportes of him thought wee should haue bene sore incumbred by his learning and ouermatched by his knowledge in the tongues so farre off was it that wee meant to make any ostentation therein towardes him as they write but vpon experience and triall with him we found him not to be that man that we looked for and went away with that opinion that the booke which was so sodainely after his bragging chalenge put in print was none of his writing much lesse penned by him as he was in his iourney as he reported him selfe but that it was elaborate before by the common and long studie of all the best learned Iesuites to serue at all oportunities To the same effect is the report of Sherwin who looking vpon the Greeke Testament and reading neuer a worde goeth yet away thereby not onely with the commendation of a man very well seene in the Greeke and Hebrew tongues but also of singular modestie and contempt of all praises as seeking to be accounted ignorant in that wherein he had great skill For that they would haue the cause of his not reading to be for that he was willed to hold his peace is very ridiculous for he did oft speake after he was so willed to holde him selfe contented and then he was specially desired to reade and not to holde his peace But we thought the truthe to be that when Sherwin had alleaged out of the second to the Ephesians after the olde translation Creati in bonis operibus we were created in good workes and the originall Greeke being shewed vnto him when he found it to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad bona opera created to do good workes he looked in the beginning and in the ende of the Greeke Testament trusting as wee thought that if he might haue found that it had bene printed in any place where the Gospel is preached hee might after Campions exāple haue made a challenge to the print as false which is now become a speciall shift of the Papistes and the last refuge when all other do faile but when he did see that it was Plantines print hee held his peace Notwithstanding we do not thinke but that Sherwin could reade Greeke the ignorance wherof we neither obiected to any nor did make any ostentation as they write of any our knowledge therein Only we offered the bookes them selues vnto Campion that his owne eyes might bee witnesses that the auncient fathers both Greekes and Latines did teache iustification by faith alone euen as we do By which occasion God as wee thinke by the opening of his ignorance meant to controll his vaine glorious bragging of all knowledge and habilitie to deale with all men Thus much and to much of this matter were it not that the reader may hereby vnderstand what vantages these writers and reporters doe take vnto them selues yea and by speedy and continuall spreading and beating of the same into the eares and heads of many do much preuaile also vntill time the mother of truthe shall discouer their vntruthes But we may by no meanes dissemble another matter by these Pamphleters sore laide to our charge Saint Augustine in the fourtenth chapter of his booke De fide operibus was by some of them in our conference as we thinke alleaged as against our doctrine of iustification by faith alone but in that confusion of many speaking at once it was not greatly by any of vs marked or said vnto that we remember But the authors of the Pamphlets do report this place of Saint Augustine as by them of al other most effectually alleaged against vs. Their words be these Unto this was added by the Catholikes the authoritie of Saint Augustine out of his booke De fide operibus and the fourtenth chapter where he hath registred that this doctrine of Iustification by faith onely was an heresie taught in the Apostles time for reformation whereof he declareth that Saint Iohn Saint Peter S. Iude and Saint Iames did write their Epistles wherein they so much inculcate the doctrine of good workes Thus they write thus they whisper in euery eare open vnto them to the slander of vs and our doctrine of iustification by faith onely as not onely an errour but an heresy also But wee doe
written in our note bookes some of them more then twentie yeeres a goe not to deceiue the Papistes but to helpe our owne memorie The first place that I haue to shewe is out of Saint Augustine de Baptismo contra Donatistas lib. 2. cap. 2. Quis autem nesciat c. as before in the first dayes conference Camp You might haue spared this labour for of this place I did not doubt my answere was c. vt supra Fulke We haue your answere let vs haue no repetition Campion The greatest matter that was doubted of was the decree of Innocentius coÌ„cerning the communicating of infants the second Councill of Nice and the prayer at the latter ende of euery Council You must proue these three to be erronious Fulke I haue proued them already I am nowe onely to shew that the bookes theÌ„selues agree with my written notes I would haue shewed you them all in order though you had not put me in minde The decree of Innocentius cited by Saint Augustine conâ—…ta 2. epist. Pelag. ad Bonifacium lib. 2. cap. 4. Haec enim eius verba sunt c. vt supra These are the wordes of Innocentius concerning the communicating of inâ—…ts S. Augustines wordes vpon the fame are these Ecce beatae memoriae Innocentius c. Behold Innocentius of blessed memorie c. Campion This is plaine I will answere you Fulke We haue your answere Campion You read not so much afore Fulke I haue read no more nowe then I did before out of my note booke Campion Mine answere is to deny that Innocentius maketh it necessary for infants to communicate Fulke We haue your answere before I come onely to discharge my credite for alleaging the booke truely Campion Mine answere was that it was neuer simply necessary but necessary according to the praetize of the Church Fulke What neede these repetitions Campion I must declare mine answere Fulke We haue it already Campion You come to appose mee as if I were a scholer in the Grammar schoole Fulke You thinke by multitude of wordes to carry away the matter but you shall haue no such scope as you had the last daye Campion You are very imperious I trust I answered you sufficiently the last day Fulke The other day when wee had some hope of your conuersion we forbare you much and suffered you to discourse contrary to the order of any good conference whereupon it hath bene giuen out by some of your sect that you had the best part because you had the most wordes And therefore nowe that we see you are an obstinate heretike and seeke to couer the light of the trueth with multitude of wordes we meane not to allow you such large discourses nor to forbeare you as we did Campion You are very imperious to day whatsoeuer the matter is My answer I am sure was sufficient to any thing you could bring you neede not to be so imperious I am the Queenes prisoner and none of yours Fulke Not a whit imperious though I will exact of you to keepe the right order of disputation What your answeres were the last day it is well knowen to so many lawefull witnesses as were present beside they are registred out of your mouth they were euen such as are like to proceede from a Fryer full of impudencie and garrulitie Campion Well I must beare this at your hands and much more You charge me with multitude of wordes may I not adde vnto my answere Fulke We haue heard your answere before we are not now to dispute the matter againe but to deliuer our credite for the allegations Campion Doe forwarde then Fulke This was the second Of the forme of prayer after the Councill which is this Te in nostris principijs c. vt errori indulgeas c. We beseech thee in these our beginnings c. that thou wilt pardon our errour And againe Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorem c. And because our owne consciences accusing vs we doe faynt least either ignorance hath drawen vs into errour c. As was alleadged in the first dayes conference Camp Where you inferre that the Councill asked forgiuenesse of their erronious decree they meant not any errour of doctrine but of wordes whatsoeuer had bene spoken against the decree before the determination of the Councill as many wordes might be before vsed which after the Councils determination it was not lawfull to vse Fulke They feare least ignorance might haue drawen them into error or headlong Will driuen them to decline from Iustice therefore they desired pardon euen for their erronious vniust determinatioÌ„s if any were which were needeles if none could be Camp I say they prayed for those that before the determination of the decree were in errour or for those that spoke against the decree before it was concluded as when thinges are disputed of doubtfully many things are spoken amisse as if any wordes be spoken here to conuert an other c. Goade You are full of similitudes and as euill you applie them It is well that you make no more accompt of general CouÌ„cils for by your similitude you make a generall Councill no better then this meeting Campion I doe not make this and a generall Councill a like Fulke The next place was cited out of the second Council of Nice which decreeth that Angels and soules of meÌ„ haue bodies are visible are circumscriptible Actione 5. Sanctus dixit de Angelis c. Campion Let me haue the booke Fulke You shall haue it when I haue read the place De Angelis Archangelis eorum potestatibus quibus nostras animas adiungo ipsa Cathol Ecclesia sentit esse quidem intelligibiles sed non omnino corporis expertes inuisibiles vt vos Gentiles dicitis verum tenui corpore preditos aerio siue igneo vt scriptum est Qui facit Angelos suos spiritus ministros eius ignem vrentem sic autem multos sanctorum patrum sensisse cognouimus QuoruÌ„ est Basilius cognomento Magnus beatus Athanasius Methodius qui stant ab illis Solummodo autem Deus incorporeus informabilis Intelligibiles autem creaturae nequaquam ex toto sunt incorporeae inimitabiles Pictura existunt quare etiaÌ„ in loco existunt circumferentiam habent Quanquam autem non sunt vt nos corporeae vtpote ex quatuor elementis crassa illa materia nemo tamen vel Angelos vel daemones vel animas dixerit incorporeas Multoties eniÌ„ in proprio corpore visi sunt sed ab illis quibus dominus oculos aperuit Nos igitur eos noÌ„ vt DeuÌ„ sed vt creatur as intelligibiles ministros Dei non tameÌ„ vt verè incorporeos pingimus colimus Quod auteÌ„ hominis formae pinganturin causa est quod in ea visi sunt si quaÌ„do ministeriuÌ„ Dei apud homines obierint Tharasius
those that would haue water He saith hee deliuered wine but consecrated wine to exclude water Fulke He excluded water to bring in wine and not to shut out both water and wine Camp We vse wine in the misteries Fulke But he saith Christ deliuered wine so doe not you say when you giue the cup Camp He gaue them that which had the name of wine and had the shewe of it but nowe was not in deede wine As for example the rod of Moyses was called a rod after it was turned into a serpent because it was a rod a litle before Fulke The rodde was miraculously turned into a serpent and returned into a rod againe both which miracles were to be iudged by the sense and yet you proue not that it was called a rodde while it was a serpent Campion Yes that I do Et deuorauit virga Aaron c. And the rod of Aaron deuoured the rod of the enchaunters Fulke Yea Sir That which was a rodde while Moyses did write and was a very serpent before Pharao deuoured the roddes of the Egyptians which were serpents in shew but rods in deed Moyses called it a rod when it was a rod and not when it was a serpent Againe it was a sensible miracle Campion So there is great miracles in the Sacrament Fulke So you say but none appeareth to our sense Campion They are vnderstoode by faith Fulke It is an easie matter so to faine miracles in euery matter but God did neuer shew miracle in conuersion of substances or any sensible thing but it was to be iudged by the senses to be a miracle Bring me one instance of any miracle in cōuersion or in any other sensible thing that could not be discerned by sense Camp It was a rod a litle before that after was called a serpent and yet reteined the name it had before as Clandi ambulant Caeci vident c. Fulke That is not denied although by you it can not be proued but here the place is plaine Chrysostome speaketh of the substance of the Sacrament he deliuered wine and they receiued wine Campion I haue answered Leaue the rest to God and their consciences which are the hearers Goade I will continue to vrge you further with the wordes of the Institution Your answere can not bee allowed for good when you would shift off the plaine wordes of our sauiour Christ calling it wine being the fruite of the vine and would haue this referred to the wine vsed in eating the Pascall before the institution You may not so leape backe from the Institution to the Pascal there was some distance of time betwene the Pascall and the Supper so you can not referre this to the whole action Campion You say well The eating the pascal Lambe went before and the Institution followed and yet I say the wordes of Christ concerning the fruit of the vine hath relation to the whole Goade Consider the order of the wordes in the Euangelist As they were eating the Passeouer Iesus tooke bread c. And then after he had deliuered the cup and bad them all drinke thereof calling it his blood then followeth I say vnto you I will not drinke hereafter of this fruite of the vine c. But I will make my argument from the Institution thus The Apostles did eate the substance of breade and wine after consecration as you terme it Therefore there remaineth the substance of bread and wine after consecration Campion I deny your Antecedent Goade That which our Sauiour Christ gaue the Apostles did eate But he gaue bread and wine Ergo they did eate bread and wine Camp I deny your minor He did not giue bread and wine Goade The same which Christ tooke into his handes he also deliuered But he tooke bread and wine Ergo he deliuered bread and wine Camp I answere out of Ambrose Before consecration it was bread and so he tooke bread but after the wordes of consecration he saith it is no bread Fulke You falsifie Ambrose and would abuse the auditorie for he doeth not say it is no bread Camp He sayth there is a chaunge I may you let me make one argument out of Ambrose and answere me if you can Goade Well make your argument you shal be answered Campion Let me borrow the booke Nowe heare Ambrose wordes lib. de Sacramentis 4. cap. 4. Tu forte dicis panis est vsitatus Sed panis iste panis est ante verba Sacramentorum vbi accesserit consecratio de pane fit caro Christi Vides ergo quà m operatorius sit sermo Christi iussit facta sunt Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini vt inciperent esse quae non erant quanto magis operatorius est vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur Peraduenture thou sayest that it is common bread But this bread before the sacramentall words is bread but after consecration of bread is made the flesh of Christ. Thou seest then of what efficacie the word of Christ is he commaunded and the creatures were made If then there is so great force in the worde of the Lord that the things that were not begun to be how much more is it able to worke that the things which were should haue still their being and be chaunged into other things Goade I know the place and thus I answere First ye haue not any worde in Ambrose to exclude the substance of bread We acknowledge a chaunge with Ambrose not of one substance into an other as you would haue to be but touching the vse whereto the sacrament serueth namely that which was common bread before ordeined to a common vse to feede the body is now conuerted and consecrated to an holy and spirituall vse to nourish the soule by feeding vpon Christ by true and liuely faith Campion But Ambrose wordes are plaine that which before was bread after consecration ex pane fit caro Christi of bread is made the flesh of Christ. Goade Ambrose words in deede are plaine in the same chapter whereby he doeth expound his meaning the chaunge to be as I haue said touching the vse and not the substance Dicis communem panem c. By these wordes it appeareth that Ambrose purpose was to confute their opinion who thought ouer basely of the Sacrament making no difference betweene it common bread Thou sayest it is common bread but thou art deceiued it is consecrated and chaunged to an holy and heauenly vse and is become sacramentally the flesh of Christ. Campion It is called bread but it is not bread for ex pane fit caro Christi And euen as he made heauen and earth by his worde so by his worde the bread is made his flesh Goade Wee deny not that it is Christes fleshe as himselfe sayeth of the bread This is my body but it is to be vnderstoode as a sacramentall speach when the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as after shal be shewed out of
Charke I do not onely thinke but knowe of a certeintie that you are deceiued and will shewe you the booke Camp Note this obiection This is myne answere to it Hermogenes the Heretike did alleadge a bastard tradition and Tertullian doth call him to proue his opinion by true scriptures For Tertullians argument is not to say It is not written Therfore it is not true but to call him to proue the Scripture true which he alledged for him Charke And note this answere He that euen now knewe no such booke taketh presently vpon him to discourse of the argument thereof What great boldnes is this From what present reuelation doth it come Beside your boldnes your error is great in affirming that Hermogenes brought a bastard tradition For there is no such thing as may appeare to any man that for triall hereof wil reade the booke Hermogenes is cōfuted for saying as an Aristotelian Philosopher the God made al things of materia prima Againe of your answere I conclude that of necessitie the proofe of euery particular tradition must be by a true scripture And it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a generall position Tertullian would haue Hermogenes proue all that he helde by scripture Camp I say it is not to shewe a bastard writing for his tradition but that which is true scripture Charke And that is all I aske for what do I seeke more but to proue that euery tradition must be proued by true Scripture when therefore you Iesuites bring in vnwritten traditions concerning your Candles your vnholy graines your Agnus deis and such beggerly stuffe wherewith you abuse and pester the world Tertullian sayth you bring a Vae vpon your selues except you can proue the vse of them by Scriptures Camp Why I say it must needes be proued there or els it is not to be receaued Charke Remember what you graunt I aske no more To leaue Tertullian with you to aduise better of I alledge also a place of Basill out of his treatises called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 capite 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This place doth clearely establish the sufficiencie of scripture and banisheth all vnwritten and selfe will worshippings Consider the place for it is worthy of consideration as making against you in this question and charging you with pride and apostasie for bringing in things not written Camp Well let these your speaches passe Reade the place S. Basill is not against vs. Charke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. It is a manifest Apostasie or falling away from the faith and a fault of high pride eyther to dissalowe any thing written in the Scriptures or to bring in any thing not written seeing the Lorde hath sayde My sheepe heare my voyce with other arguments to that purpose Camp I will not trouble the auditorie with this place For Basill declareth that in some things we must be referred to tradition he speaketh onely for the alleadging of false scriptures and hath nothing against me Charke Then nothing can make against errour if this make not agaynst you But you abuse the auditorie and knowe not the drift of Basill in this place and that I will make euident to all the companie Take the booke and reade it if you can the place is easie Greeke and the sentence but short Camp I had rather reade it in Latine then in Greeke I vnderstande the Latine better I maruell you are so much in your Greeke Charke If I shoulde not haue brought it in Greeke but in Latine then you woulde haue taken exception against the interpreter I bring not the interpretour but Basill him selfe in the tongue wherein hee wrote Here Campion being long in turning the Latine booke coulde not finde the treatise but desired Master Charke to finde it who answered I haue it readie in Basill him selfe If you flee to the interpretour turne your owne booke Camp I haue answered you Saint Basills meaning is as it was then a common doctrine that it is a great fault to disalow true scriptures or to bring in false scriptures and to father a false writing vpon the Apostles Charke I protest that hauing perused the circumstaunces of the place I finde no such generall or particular drifte of the father as you misreport but a playne doctrine and sundrie argumentes to proue it that nothing is to be receiued or brought into the Church that is not written Camp Your protestation is no argument I am acquaynted with this dealing since the other day But the scope of Saint Basill is as I haue saide Charke My true protestation doeth ouerway your misconstruing as wel of Basill nowe as of Tertullian before and therein I referre my selfe to the examination of both places If you will or can read but twentie lines further your owne eyes shal see and giue sentence against your selfe Camp I haue giuen you the sense of the Doctours wordes and neede not reade the place Charke Reade first and then answere What Authour or what place can make against you if you will of your selfe frame an interpretation after your owne purpose without reading the wordes or making conscience what construction you giue Campion Saint Basill in other places is of a contrary iudgement and I am sure he is not contrary to him selfe The Apostles had fayth before they wrote and therefore it must needes be the scope Charke What kinde of answere is this Speake to the purpose or confesse your insufficiencie Basills owne woordes in this place doe euidently proue that hee is against you answere them or acknowledge your selfe not able to satisfie the Doctour Campion Was all written when the Apostles first taught Charke Is this any answere to Basill Propounde no newe questions but answere the former place so full against you Camp You see mine answere Charke I see and all men may see your vntrueth to shift off the matter Basills wordes are too strong against you To your newe question I answere that since the worde of God was first written that which hath bene written conteyned sufficient matter to saluation Campion Then what needed so many additions since of the Prophets and Apostles writings if we had sufficient before Charke The most honourable addition of the Prophetes and Apostles serued to a clearer manifestation of Christ of whome Moses had written before but added nothing to the substance In the after noone The Question Whether faith onely iustifieth M. Charkes prayer OUr helpe is in the name of the Lorde c. Almightie God merciful Father we acknowledge against our selues that we were conceiued and borne in sinne and corruption that wee remaine vnprofitable to any thing that is good and most prone and ready to that which is euill in thy fight Ignorance doeth possesse our mindes and dulnesse ruleth in our vnderstanding so that of our selues wee can not see into thy glorious and excellent trueth and in our selues wee finde no health nor hope of health Therefore according to thy riche mercie O Lord take
this day any poore Priest may tell the Pope seeing the Pope to erre in manners and may say vnto him Syr why do you so Fulke But that is against your owne Canon Law For what so euer the Pope doth no man may say Syr why did you so Campion I thinke there can bee shewed no such wordes in the Lawe Fulke I pray you answere me Did Peter dissemble against his conscience or with it Surely he did it not for any worldly respect but because he thought it was his dutie in so doing to beare with the weakenes of the Iewes to thinke that aman may dissemble in such a case is a matter of faith therefore his error was a matter of faith and not of facte onely Camp Why in some case the Catholikes thinke they may communicate with you come to your Churches you againe cōmunicate with vs go to our churches dispute conferre with vs c. Fulke I would wish you to conteine your selfe I knowe where you are It is a matter that doth not belong vnto you You drawe to a thing you ought to be silent in It is a matter of state it were best for you to leaue such things Camp I meane to dispute what do you threaten Fulk No but I giue you good coūsail I am more your friend then you are aware of I thinke you are already founde deepe enough in such matters But to an other argument The generall Councill confesseth that it may erre Ergo the Church may erre Camp In deede this is to the point if you can proue it Fulke Answere directly and you shall see I will proue it so as you shall not be able to auoyde it The whole councill prayeth in the ende of euery generall Council in a set forme of prayer that God will pardon their error ergo they confesse they may erre c. for thus they saye Te in nostris principijs occursorem poposcimus te quoque in hoc fine iudiciorū nostrorū pro excessibus indultorem adesse precamur scilicet vt ignorantiae parcas vt errori indulgeas c. This is the very forme of their prayer Wee prayed that thou wouldest be an ayder in our beginnings thee also in this ende of our iudgements we pray to be present as a pardoner of our excesse that is to say that thou wouldest spare our ignorance and pardon our error Here you see plainly they confesse they may erre when they desyre pardon of their errors Campion Master Doctor they pray against your errors doe they not that God would pardon your errors Fulke They pray that if they themselues haue erred they may be pardoned they speake of their owne errors committed in their owne Councill and the wordes that followe doe plainely expresse the same Campion I would see the printed booke and first I woulde knowe whether they speake of any error of faith then secondly I would know if it can be shewed wherein the Councill erred Fulke Seeing the Councill by this prayer confesseth that it may erre what neede it be shewed wherein it erred Campion Was this prayer said in the Councill of Trent Fulke I know not but it is the prayer that is appointed to be said after euery Councill Campion I answere the Councill of Trent will not acknowledge any error it was some matter of facte Fulke Their wordes are plaine that they may erre not onely in facte but also in faith and therefore they pray to be pardoned in both Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorem aut praeceps forsitan voluntas impulerit iustitiam declinare ob hoc te poscimus te rogamus vt si quid offensionis in hac Concilij celebritate contraximus cōdonare ac remissibile facere digneris And because our owne conscience accusing vs we do faint lest either ignorance hath drawen vs into error or hasty will perhaps hath driuē vs to decline from iustice we pray thee we beseech thee that if wee haue committed any offence in the celebration of this Council thou wouldest vouchsafe to forgiue it and to make it pardonable Campion That very worde declareth that they meane of some error in facte not of doctrine They pray that if they haue ignorantly erred from iustice they might be pardoned Fulke Those thinges which the Councill doth wisely distinguishe you do vnwisely confound They acknowledge that ignorance might drawe them into error and heady will drawe them from iustice they distinguish error from iniustice and desire to bee pardoned of both As for the booke it shal be brought We could not haue bookes here for we agreed vpon the question but immediatly before dinner and could not go out of the place since for bookes but it shal be shewed M. Lieutenant Here M. Lieutenant told them the time was past but M. D. Fulke desired to haue one agument more Fulke The Councill of Nice 2. decreed an error therefore the Church may erre Camp Now we shall haue the matter of Images Fulke You are Nimis acutus you will leape ouer the stile or euer you come at it I meane not to speake of Images Campion Well then I denie the Antecedent Fulke The Synode decreed that Angels Archangels soules of men c. haue bodies are visible circumscriptible and this is an error ergo they decreed an error c. Camp They decreed no such thing Fulke You shall heare the wordes of the Councill Actione 1. First that saying of one Iohānes Bishop of Thessalonica was read in these wordes De angelis archangelis eorū potestatibus quibus nostras animas adiungo ipsa Catholica ecclesia fic sentit esse quidem intelligibiles sed non omnino corporis expertes inuisibiles Concerning Angels and Archangels and the powers of them to which also I adioyne our soules the Catholike Church her selfe doeth so thinke that they are in deede intelligible but not altogether without bodies and inuisible Which wordes of Iohānes Thessalonicēsis the Archbishop of Cōstantinople Tharasius who was prolocutor of the Councill abridgeth and concludeth vpon them saying Ostendit autem pater quod angelos pingere oporteat quando circumscribi possunt vt homines apparuerunt This father hath shewed that we must paint the Angels also seeing they may be circumscribed haue appeared as men Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine The holy synode said Yea my lord Here you see the decree of the whole Synode approuing the saying of Iohannes Thessalonicensis and the conclusion of Tharasius thereupon Campion Shewe me the decree and let me see the Canon many things are spoken in Councils that are not the Canons Fulke I haue read the decree Campion Shew me the Canon reade their Canon Fulke As though euery Council hath set forth Canōs many Councils haue no Canons neither hath this any that I know You shew your selfe a man well read in the Councils that will exact
Church though you call it a small matter and yet you wil not teach the people that it is a smal matter Fulk I said that inuocation of Saints as it was held by some of the latter sort of auncient fathers was but a small error in comparison of such grosse heresies which the Popish Church doeth now holde and in comparison of such inuocation of Saints as is now mainteined and practised by the Papistes but your accusatioÌ„ of my booke was written therefore you can not alter it Camp Lend me your booke that I may charge you The booke being deliuered after a litle turning he sayde This is not the booke that I meant Fulke This is the booke that you named Camp I meant your answere vnto Doctor Allens articles because Bristow hath confuted it Fulk This is a poore shift wheÌ„ you haue slandered my booke and named one to flie to another so would you do with that booke you name now For I am sure that neither in that nor any other that euer I wrote your slander can be founde Goad There is an other thing ye were desirous to see touching the Councill of Constantinople and the Councill of Nice one of them being alleaged to be coÌ„trary to the other about setting vp of Images in the Church the Councill of Constantinople disalowing Images and the second Councill of Nice allowing theÌ„ and condemning the other Councill as erroneous Camp That of Constantinople was not a generall nor lawfull Councill but a certaine Iconomachy and may rather be called a conuenticle then a generall Councill and therefore no contrarietie hereby proued betweene generall Councils Goade It appeareth it was generall and solemnely gathered in the chiefe citie heare the wordes in the title of the Councill Sancta magna uniuersalis Synodus quae iuxtagratiaÌ„ Dei per pium deuotorum orthodoxorum nostrorum Imperatorum ConstaÌ„tini Leonis decretum in hac diuinormâ—… studiosa regia ciuitate congregata est c. The holy great and vniuersall Synode which by the grace of God and the godly decree of our godly Emperours Constantine and Leo is gathered in this holy and royall citie This Councill did confute by the Scriptures the setting vp of Images in the Church out of Deut. 20. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any Image nor likenes of any thing c. and Deut. 4. For which cause saith this Counsaile you heard the voyce of wordes in the middest of the fire but you sawe no image Contrary to this the Councill of Nice doth accurse those that will not worship images in these words Qui venerandas imagines non veneraÌ„tur Anathema Accursed be they that worship not holy images So it appeareth that these two Councils were contrary and therefore one of them did erre But I will proceede to the next place You doubted also whether it were to be founde in Saint Augustine that there is no Miracle in the Sacrament Now you may heare his owne wordes To. 3. De Trinitate lib. 3. cap. 10. Sicut panis ad hoc factus in accipiendo Sacramento consumitur Sed quia haec hominibus nota sunt quia per homines fiunt honorem tanquam religiosa possunt habere stuporem tanquam mira non possunt As the bread ordained for this purpose is consumed in receauing the Sacrament But because these things are knowen vnto men are done by men they may haue honour or reuerence as holy things but they can not be wondered at as things strange and miraculous Here you haue Augustines wordes against miracle in the Sacrament Camp In deede there is no such euident miracle visibly appearing as when Christ cured yâ— lame the blinde c. but yet there is a great miracle which our faith doeth acknowledge Goade Augustine speaketh simply against miracle so that whether it be visible or inuisible both is excluded Beside it is perpetuall in all miracles that there must bee some outward sensible signe Further you doubted of Inhaerens iustitia righteousnes inherent in our selues which I auouched to bee erroneous doctrine set forth in the late Council of Trent The wordes are these Concil Trident. cap. 7. Verè iusti nominamur sumus iustitiam in nobis recipientes vnusquisque suam secundum mensuram quam spiritus sanctus partitur singulis prout vult secundum propriam cuiusque dispositionem cooperationem Et cap. 16. Quae quum iustitia nostra dicitur quia per eam nobis inhaerenteÌ„ iustificamur illa eadem Dei est quia a Deo nobis infunditur per Christi meritum We are called and in deede are truely righteous receiuing in our selues euery man his own righteousnes according to the measure which the holy Ghost doth deuide to euery one euen as he will according to euery mans own proper disposition cooperation For that righteousnes which is called ours because we are iustified by it inherent in our selues the selfe same is the righteousnes of God because it is powred into vs from God by the merit of Christ. Camp I did not doubt of inherent righteousnes in our selues whether it were in the Council of Trent for I defend mainteine it as the Councill teacheth it you saye it is by imputation of Christes righteousnes being without vs whereby wee are iustified and I say wee are iustified by that righteousnesse which is within vs though it be not of vs. Goade The place which I vrged against you the other day beside many other in the scripture is direcly against this doctrine 2. Cor. 5. 21. He hath made him to be fin for vs which knewe no sinne that we should be made the righteousnes of God in him Fulke Well nowe we are to come to the question You holde that the natural body blood of Christ is contained in the Sacrament of the Lordes supper Your wordes are Christ is present in the Sacrament substaÌ„tially very God man in his natural body Camp I say there is really present in the Sacrament the naturall body and blood of Christ vnder that bread and cup. Fulke What meane you by these wordes vnder the bread and cup that we may agree of termes Campion You knowe in the bread is whitenes c. that is not in his body make your argument Fulke So I will The cup is not the naturall blood of Christ Ergo the other parte is not his naturall body Campion There is present in the cup the naturall blood of Christ. Go to my wordes Fulke Well The naturall blood of Christ is not present in the cup Ergo the naturall body is not present in the other part Campion The naturall blood of Christ is present in the cup. Fulke Thus I disproue it The wordes of Christes institution be these This cup is the new testament in my blood But the naturall blood of Christ is not the newe testament in his blood Ergo the naturall blood of Christ is not in the cup. Camp The ward Is is neither in the
accidents are not that he spake of Campion This is a booke and yet I see not the substance of a booke but whitenesse and other accidents Fulke Who would say that whitenes is the booke none but a madde man neither will any say that whitenesse is the body of Christ or called the body of Christ. Therefore by the word of heauenly bread and of the Sacrament he meaneth the whole sacrament I see you haue nothing but shamelesse shiftes against so cleare authoritie of your owne Canon law speaking against you Campion If you dare let me shewe Augustine and Chrysostome if you dare Fulke Whatsoeuer you can bring I haue answered already in writing against other of your side and yet if you thinke you can adde any thing put it in writing and I will answere it Campion Prouide me ynke and paper and I will write Fulke I am not to prouide you ynke and paper Campion I meane procure me that I may haue libertie to write Fulke I knowe not for what cause you are restrained of that libertie and therefore I will not take vpon me to procure it Campion Sue to the Queene that I may haue libertie to oppose I haue bene nowe thrise opposed it is reason I should oppose once Fulke I will not become a suter for you Camp Sue to the Queene for me it is but an easie suite you being in such credit with your Prince may if you dare procure this matter Catholikes of their prince can obtaine a greater matter and are not you Protestants in such credit with your Prince that you can obteine so small a matter Fulke We meane not to trie our credit in this matter But if you write any thing I will answere you in writing Campion Procure it Fulke It were to small purpose I haue answered already Heskins and Saunders which are like to bring as much as you Campion I am not worthy to cary their bookes after them And you your selfe Sir may be scholer to either of them Goade If Christ be present in his naturall body he must be present in his true body But Christ is not present in his true body Ergo not in his naturall body Camp I deny your minor He is present in his true body Goade A true body must haue the properties of a true body But this hath not the properties of a true body Ergo it is not a true body Camp I deny againe your minor It hath the properties of a true body Goade AmoÌ„gst the properties of a true body this is one special to be circuÌ„scribed in place not to be in many places at once But in your transubstantiation Christes body is made to be in many yea in infinite places at once Ergo it hath not the properties of a true body Campion It is in respect of a miracle not seene with eye but with our faith Goade Now you runne againe to miracle It hath bene before shewed you out of Augustine that there is no miracle in the Sacrament and your selfe sayd that miracles are now ceased Campion It is a great miracle to conuert a sinner yea greater then to make the worlde and this kinde of miracle is dayly Goade Now you would go from the matter this is not properly a miracle But to the purpose Answere the argument That which is in many places at once is not a true body But as you teach Christ in the Sacrament is bodily in many places at once Ergo not a true body Campion The propertie of the fire is to burne yet the three children in the fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ed Wiâ—… you therâ—…e 〈◊〉 that it was truely fire Goade That was in deede and properly a miracle whereof the Scripture testifieth which visibly was seene Campion So is this a miracle Goade Beside it is not sensible which must be in a miracle There is no ground of the worde for it And faith must be grounded on the worde of God Campion The word teacheth that God is omnipotent Goade You that wil reason from Gods omnipotencie must prooue also his will Omnia quae voluit fecit Hee hath done all things whatsoeuer he would Camp Nay you must proue it is not his will Goade I wil proue it out of Theodoret. Dialo 3. qui inscribitur impatibilis writing of the glorified body of Christ after his resurrection Non est mutatum in naturam diuinitatis sed post resurrectionem est quidem immortale ù corruptione interitu alienum diuina gloria plenum sed tamen corpus est quod habet propriam circumscriptionem The body of Christ is not changed into the nature of his diuinitie but after his resurrection it is in deede a body immortall free from corruption and ful of diuine glory but yet it is a body that hath a proper circumscription Campion When it pleaseth Christ to worke a miracle he is not bound to the natural properties he doth not alwayes practise all his properties His body ascending into heauen had the true properties of a body yet did not then practise them It is against the naturall propertie of a body to ascend vpward Goade This ascention of Christes body being an article of our faith is grounded vpon the worde that his body was taken vp neuerthelesse remayned a true body circumscribed in place Augustine sayth we must not take away the trueth of Christs body Epist. ad Dard. 57. Cauendum ne ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus cui profecto immortalitatem dedit naturam non abstulit Wee must take heede that we doe not so maintayne the Godhead of Christ being man that we take away the trueth of his body whereunto hee gaue immortalitie but tooke not away the nature Campion You neede not bring these places I graunt that Christ hath a true body But you may as well deny the ascension of Christ being against the propertie of a true body to ascend vpwarde Goade I answered before that this is an article of our faith grounded vpon the expresse worde of God And because we do beleeue by the word that Christes body is ascended and sitteth at the right hand of God and from thence shal come to iudge therefore we cannot beleeue the coÌ„trary that Christ is yet present on earth So Augustine reasoneth in the same Epistle Christus Iesus vbique est per id quod Deus in coelo autem per id quod homo Spacia locorum tolle corporibus nusquam erunt quia nusquam erunt nec erunt Christ iesus is euery where as he is God but as he is man he is in heauen Take away space of places from bodies they shall be in no place and because in no place they shall haue no being at all Campion I thinke I haue answered sufficiently he is present not naturally but miraculously Goade Why then ye destroy the propertie of a true bodie and so consequently take away the trueth of a body Campion I grant the
a sacramentall speache vsuall as hath bene saide in the Scriptures to giue the name of the thing to the signe for the similitude betweene both and therefore must be sacramentally expounded propter similitudinem signi rei signatae Campion That maketh for me that the signe hath the name of the thing Goade Doth it make for you that y◠signe is so termed Secūdū quendam modum after a certaine maner as Augustine saith before and yet simply is not for The Sacrament is not the thing it selfe but in a kind of speach sacramentally as Circumcision is said to be the couenant which was not the Couenant it selfe but a signe therof Campion Make your argument Goade Seeing ye will haue me draw it into an argument thus I reason It is vsuall in the Sacraments for the Scripture to speake figuratiuely calling the signe by the name of the thing signified as in Circumcision Gen. 17. the Pascall Lambe Exod. 12. and the rocke in the wildernes 1. Cor. 10 Therefore the like in this sacrament of the Lordes supper Campion I denie your argument they are not alike Goade I proue it The same reason of Augustine from the analogie to take the name of the thing holdeth in all sacraments Ergo in this And for example he bringeth this Sicut ergo secundum quendam modum Sacramentum corporis Christi corpus Christi est Therefore as the Sacrament of Christes body after a certaine maner is sayd to be the body of Christ c. Also the very maner of speach in the other Sacraments is like viz. of circumcision This is my Couenant of the Pascall This is the Passeouer of the rocke The rocke was Christ. Camp I say they are not like for Christ was not naturally present in those sacraments of the olde Testament as he is in this Sacrament Goade You bring an instance by Petitio principij but I ouerthrowe your particular instance by the generall The like vsuall speache is vsed in all Sacraments both of the olde and newe Testament Ergo in this sacrament of the Supper Camp The speache sense is this in the sacrament Hoc est corpus meum This that I see is my body as the quātitie colour Goade You answer not mine argument I haue said inough for the true vnderstanding of these wordes it must haue a sacramentall sense I leaue it vnto iudgement Camp I graunt a sacramentall sense so farre forth as goeth to colour The fathers you alleadge but those that I bring can not be answered Fulke They haue bene and may be as time and occasson will serue but nowe your lot is to answere I will take away your common and onely answere Campion I haue answered already Fulke Your answere sheweth that you vnderstande not the scope and purpose of Saint Augustine which is to proue that this saying Anima est sanguis is such a kinde of speach as this of the sacrament This is my body For these are his words Nam ex eo quod scriptum est c. For of that which is written that the blood of a beast is the soule of it beside that which I said before that it perteineth not vnto me what becōmeth of the soule of a beast I can also interpret this commandement to be made in a signe for our Lord doubted not to say This is my body when he gaue the signe of his body Here you see Augustine hauing disputatiō with the heretique Adimantus which helde that the blood of a beast was the soule thereof affirmeth that the blood is but a signe of the soule as the sacrament is a signe of the body of Christ and yet is called the soule as the other is called the body of Christ. Campion You are answered already Fulke This is your common answere You are answered already and you haue answered your selfe when you haue none other shift You vnderstand neuer a place of the Doctors that hath bene yet alleadged Campion Twentie yeres agoe I haue read this booke Fulke I do not beleeue that euer you read it you are so ignorant of the argument of it But sure I am that xx yeres agoe you had not read it You would seeme to be an older student in Diuinitie then you are by a great deale M. Norton Where were you Campion twenty yeres agoe were you not a poore boy in the hospitall Camp I was two and twentie yeeres olde and then I was Bacheler of Art Fulke You might reade that place noted out by some other but the whole worke of the autor you read not Camp I did not say that I had then read his whole worke Fulke It is not a dosen yeres agoe since I heard you at Garbrandes staule in Oxenforde aske for Irenaeus Epistles wherein you shewed that you were but a yong reader of the Doctors at that time Campion Peraduenture I might aske for Irenaeus workes Fulke Nay you asked for Irenaeus Epistles and namely that to Victor Campion Why might I not hauing read in Eusebius of his Epistle to Victor aske of the Stationer whether that Epistle were extant Fulke I deny not but you might but yet that argueth that you were but a yong man in the Doctors that knewe not what workes of Irenaeus were extant But howe answere you to Saint Augustine Campion I answere Saint Augustine sayth that Sanguis is a signe of the soule present as the bread is a signe of the bodie of Christ being present Fulke Saint Augustine sayth that the blood doth onely signifie the soule and is not the substance of the soule but you vtterly destroy his argument and so helpe the heretique very well Camp The heretique thought it was an absurditie that Sanguis being eaten anima is eaten Augustine sheweth because Sanguis is a principal part of life it is called the vitall blood c. Like as this Sanguis is a token that Anima is neere so the signe of the bread is a token that Christ is neare Fulke You goe quite from the matter The question was not whether the blood be a signe of the soule but whether it bee the soule it selfe Campion Let it be noted why is blood called Anima but because Anima is neare it because it exerciseth his functions therein So he gaue bread that was a signe of his body present The question was neuer whether the blood were the substance of the soule but whether the blood being eaten the soule were eaten Therefore in that saying of Saint Augustine Christ doubted not to say he gaue his body when he gaue a signe of his body there signe is a token of his presence Fulke That is a meere fallacion signe a token of presence as blood a signe that anima is neere Augustine is cleare that the blood is not the soule but a signe thereof as that which Christ gaue was not his body but a signe thereof Or els the heretique had his purpose in saying that eating of blood is eating of soules Campion I must not eate
and brought vp in this realme in schooles places where good learning hath bene taught so that he might haue bene a good instrument in this common wealth and Gods Church but contrary to his bringing vp his friendes expectation hope that this Church might haue conceaued of him like an vnnaturall man to his countrey degenerated from an English man an Apostata in religion a fugitiue from this realme vnloyal to his Prince hath not onely fled to the man of Rome an aduersarie to Christ and his doctrine but hath gotten a courage from that Romaniste with certaine other his sectaries to come into this realme againe to vndermine the Gospell of Christ to seduce Gods people and withdrawe her Maiesties lawfull subiectes to disobedience and sedition and hath bene disguised in Ruffians apparel in diuers places of this realme to plant secretely that blasphemous Masse and other Poperie whereunto it appeareth hee hath allured many vnstable fooles and in Yorkeshire where his Sectaries disciples are apprehended iustly imprisoned nowe they rage as I heare say and curse him that euer he came there So ye see what maner of mā we are to talke withal What good we shall do with him the Lord doeth knowe other maner of men then we are and of another calling were more meete to talke with him then we notwithstanding we will doe our best that we can God giue it good effect As for you Campion I heare say that you vse to scoffe and iest at such as come to conferre with you we come not for that purpose it is not our profession yet I giue you warning Si quam maledicendo coeperis voluptatem eam malè audiendo amittes Now to the question which is that the scriptures containe all things sufficient to saluation against the assertion of your booke For you say that the Lutherans haue cut off many bookes from the body of the new Testament and so diuided them from the Canonicall scripture which is not true Camp Yes that they haue and therein they haue done euill Walker Here Master Walker reade the words out of Campions challenge Campion Luther hath cut off the Epistle of Iames the second epistle of Iohn Iude and the seconde of Peter Luther hath found fault with these and improued them in his prefaces vpon those Epistles Walker Luther hath not doubted of them himselfe but shewed that others haue doubted of them Campion It is one thing to doubt an other thing to cut off Bring me the bookes and I will shewe that he hath cut them off Walker That can not bee shewed if the bookes were here For the Doctors doe not agree concerning these bookes that are of the Canon Some recite more some recite lesse as Origen Hierome and others and yet it were hard to say that they cut off any of the Canonicall bookes They doe as Luther may shewe what bookes were doubted of in their time and yet no whitte preiudice the bookes of the Canonicall Scripture Campion Well I say whatsoeuer they might doe then yet now seeing the Church hath otherwise determined it is blasphemie for any to doubt of them The Lutherans doe doubt of them bring me the bookes and I will shewe where Luther doubteth and therefore blasphemeth because the Church hath taken away the doubt videlicet the third Councill of Carthage and that of Laodicea Walker I do not professe my selfe a Lutheran but a Christian But if olde fathers and olde Councils haue not receiued these bookes for Canonical and bookes to ground our faith vpon then can not new men nor the Tridentine Council being ful of errors make thē Canonicall August de doct Christ. lib. 2. ca. 8. leaueth out Baruch the two last bookes of Esdras Hieronymus praes in li. Reg. Hūc prologū galeatū principiū vocat He saith Igitur Sapientia quae vulgo Salomonis inscribitur Iesu filij Syrach liber Iudith Tobias pastor nō sunt in Canone Macchabaeorū primū librū Hebraicū reperi secūdus Graecus est quod ex ipsa phrafi probari potest Eusebius also ecclesi hist. lib. 6. cap. 18. fol. 368. sequentibus omittit tertiū quartū Esdrae Tobiae Iudith Baruch Sapiētia Ecclesiastici Machabaeorum libros Paulo post De eo inquit qui est apud Hebraeos nonnulli dubitauerunt c. Sed ego dico ficut mihi à maioribus traditum est quia manifestissimè Pauli est Ibi de secunda Petri Epistola à nōnullis dubitatur De duabus vltimis Iohannis Epistolis apud quosdā dubia sententia He omitteth in the forenamed place the third fourth booke of Esdras the bookes of Tobie Iudith Baruch of Wisdome of Ecclesiasticus of the Macchabees A litle after Cōcerning that saith he which is written to the Hebrues many haue doubted but I say as hath bene deliuered vnto mee from mine Elders because it appeareth most manifestly to be of Paules There also concerning the second Epistle of Peter he sayth that it was doubted of many and so with some were the two last Epistles of Iohn The same Eusebius lib. 4. cap. 26. loquens de Melitone Episcopo Sardensis Ecclesiae qui recitans volumina veteris Testamenti omittit Esdras Tobi Hester Iudith Baruch Sapientiae Syrach Macchabaeorum c. Speaking of Melito the Bishop of the Church of Sardis who reckening vp the volumes of the olde Testament he omitteth Esdras Tobie Hester Iudith Baruch Wisedome Syrach the bookes of the Macchabees c. And the Laodicean Councill omitteth Lukes Gospel the Apocalyps You see therefore that these old fathers haue left these bookes out of the Canon and yet were they neyther called heretiques nor blasphemers Campion It is not lawfull to cut off the bookes of the olde Testament from the Canon which not onely as I haue sayd Luther hath done but also Caluine The one hath reiected those bookes I haue named and the other reiecteth the bookes of Tobie Ecclesiasticus the booke of Wisdome the bookes of Maccabees Baruch and the like which are de syncero Canone Walker What is this to that I haue saide I haue shewed that the olde Doctors haue refused them for Canonicall and therefore so many may we refuse and they them selues wil de no further admitted then they agree with the Canonicall Scriptures and these bookes which you name haue alwayes bene esteemed Apocrypha Augustine contra Maximinum Arrianorum Episcopum lib. 2. Cap. 14. Nec ego Nicenum nec tudebes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tuistius debueris Scripturarum authoritatibus non quorumcumque proprijs sed vtrisque communibus testibus res cum re causa cum causa ratio cum ratione concertet c. August against Maximinus the Bishop of the Arrians Neither oughtest thou to bring the Council of Arimine nor I the Nicene as it were to preiudice the trueth neither should I be holden with the authoritie of this nor thou of
that but let it be tryed by the authority of the Scriptures not the proper witnesses of any but common to both let matter with matter cause with cause and reason with reason trye it c. And Hierome writing to Laeta de institutione filiae fol. 58. willeth not to reade some without doubting and other some warely but he sayth Caueat omnia Apocrypha Let her beware of all the Apocrypha which he nameth in Prologo Galeato Et si quando ea non ad dogmatum veritatem sed ad signorum reuerentiam legere voluerit sciat non eorum esse quorum titulis praenotantur multaquè ijs admixta vitiosa grandis esse prudentiae aurum in luto quaerere And if at any time she will reade them not for the trueth of opinions but for the reuerence of signes let her knowe that they are not theirs whose titles they beare but that many vitious thinges are mixt with them and that it is a point of great wisdome to seeke out golde in dirt Loe here you see that he biddes her to beware in the reading of them Camp The Scripture is principally to be admitted but I would we might haue an argument Walker Then thus I reason That which he biddeth to beware of is not to be holden authenticall But he biddeth to beware of the Apocrypha Ergo the Apocrypha is not to be holden authenticall Camp Apocrypha are taken two wayes First for those bookes which are doubted of and then for such bookes that are not allowed Such were the prophecie of Enoch Iacobs testament and such like which he calleth Somniolenta deliramenta vitiosa c. of those Hierome speaketh in this place and not of those others For what point is there in Ecclesiasticus the booke of Wisdome that is to be found fault with that is vitiosū not good Walker They are called Apocrypha that are not in the Canon receiued and allowed to haue proceeded vndoubtedly from the holy Ghost these Apocrypha are forbidden to be read And Hierome in praefat in lib. Reg. saith Hic prologus scripturarum c. Si quid extra hos est inter Apocrypha est ponendum c. They are not in the Canon therefore Apocrypha are onely to be read Camp Woulde Hierome forbid the gentlewoman to reade Ecclesiasticus where there are giuen so many morall precepts Non sunt in Canone Hebraeorum sed in Canone Christianorum They are not in the Canon of the Hebrewes but they are in the Canon of the Christians Walker They may be read for morall Lessons but not for matters of religion which must be proued by Canonicall scripture What say you to the second booke of Macchabees Thinke you that to be holden for Canonicall scripture Camp I thinke so What should let Walker What say you to that sentence 2. Macch. 12. thrust into the text Salubris est oratio pro defunctis and to that which followeth Et si quidem bene vt historiae competit hoc est vt ipse velim sin autem minus digne concedendum est mihi And if I haue done well and as is meete for a storie this also my selfe did wish c. Camp It is marueile that you should say that it is thrust in Walker It is noted so by other and the duetie of an historiographer is to reporte things done truely and plainely without arguing like a Logitian but he sayeth Ergo salubris est oratio pro defunctis Therefore prayer for the dead is healthfull which appeareth first to haue bene set in the margent But howe auoyde you the last Can such asking of pardon be of the holy Ghost wherein hath hee fayled or of whome shall hee be pardoned Camp The interpreter asketh pardon of his speach for his style and not for the doctrine The holy Ghost asketh no more pardon then Paul did when he saide Rudis sum sermone I am rude in speach when he spake in a base and lowe stile Charke Campion howsoeuer you labour to auoyde the direct course of disputation and haue obteined some change of the question I must call you home by and by Notwithstanding I minde a while to followe this your course and to finde you out in your owne trace where I maruaile howe you dare thus speake in this assemblie For what a blot is it to the holy Ghost to affirme he should aske pardon and to the Apostle Saint Paul to say his stile to the Corinthians is a base and lowe stile But to vse no further preface I will thus proue that the 2. booke of the Macchabees was not indited by the holy Ghost Whatsoeuer needeth pardon either for matter or maner was not indited by the holy Ghost But the story of the 2. booke of Macchabees needeth pardon either for matter or maner Therefore it was not indited by the holy Ghost Camp This man would be angrie with me if he knew why Charke If I woulde knowe I not why to be angrie with you a notable and vowed enemie of the trueth of God and a seditious man against the state But I come not to deale with your person but against your errors Answere the argument Camp I say the writer of the Macchabees asketh pardon of his speach neyther doeth Paul blotte the holy Ghost when he saide that he was rudis sermone that he spake not so eloquently nor so finely as sometimes he might Charke You answere not directly and beside you affirme an error For S. Paul craueth no pardon for his stile but setteth his plainesse against the set and curious speach of the false Apostles who did come in gay apparance and shewe of wordes as if they had had al the power of trueth that might be and yet in this plaine style the Apostle was of al others most mightie most eloquent As for the 2. booke of Macchabees which you make Canonicall seripture here I will make this challēge if you dare answere it to proue many lyes in it through 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and that therefore it was written by a prophane spirite for the matter But to come to the Syllogisme and to disproue your distinction I reason thus The writers of holy Scriptures aske not any pardon at all either for the matter or for the manner Therefore they aske no pardon for their style Camp I deny your Antecedent Paul sayeth Rudis sum sermone Charke If Saint Paul saith Rudis sum sermone doeth he I pray you in those wordes craue pardon for his stile howe hang your wordes together I will proue my Antecedent by the place of Peter None that haue written as they were directed by the spirit of God craue pardon either for matter or for manner But all the holy men of God that wrote the Scriptures haue written as they were directed by the spirit of God Therefore none of the holy men of God that haue written the scriptures craue pardon either for matter or manner Camp This acknowledging
booke of Wisedome Ecclesiasticus Maccabees c. which your Councill of Trent thrust in as authenticall But to leaue that it is plaine that Cyprian vpō the Creede omitteth al that Apocrypha hauing rehearsed those which be Canonicall he sayth Haec sunt quae patres intra Canonem concluserunt ex quibus fidei nostrae assertiones constare voluerunt Sciendum tamen est quod alii libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici a maioribus appellati sunt vt est Sapientia Salomonis Ecclesiasticus libellus Tobiae Iudith Machabaeorum libri quae omnia in ecclesijs legi voluerunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex ijs fidei confirmandam These are those thinges which the fathers shut within the Canon by which they would haue the assertions of our fayth to stande Notwithstanding we must know that there are other bookes also which of our Elders were called Ecclesiast and not Canonicall as Salomons booke of Wisd. Ecclus. the bookes of Tobias Iudeth the Macca all which they would haue read in the Church and yet not brought forth to confirme the authoritie of fayth out of them Camp He is called cōmonly Author expositionis in Symbolum and therefore doubtfull whether it were Cyprian or no but admit it were I answere to these and all such like places that when particular Fathers particular Councils doe recken vp such such books omit others that either were receiued there or in other places sithens they recken vp such as were thē come to their knowledge and such as were approued in that part of the worlde where they thē liued But it followeth not they reckened no more Ergo there were no more They doubted therefore we must acknowledge no more For the Church hath since put them out of doubt Walker You answere not but trifle For those are not onely omitted and left vnreckoned but they are set downe for Apocrypha or Ecclesiastici so certaynely named and not Canonical Camp Some might bee set downe then as doubtfull that nowe are out of doubt because they are receiued Charke Hitherto you haue gone from the matter wherein I haue bene willing to followe you a little to cleare the poynt that then was in hande when I began with you Nowe let vs come to the questions agreed of betweene vs. Camp Nay let vs first speake of the authoritie of the Scripture then if you will of the sufficiencie Charke Of the authoritie we haue spoken alreadie and it is not within our question which is onely of sufficiencie Camp I deferre to the scriptures all authoritie and all sufficiencie therefore you haue nothing against me Charke Yes I haue this against you that you doe not thinke the scriptures onely and alone sufficient to all doctrine of fayth and maners For whatsoeuer you say we knowe you holde and teache the contrary namely that all things are not set downe and written in the worde This other day you were still calling for Syllogismes and when you had receiued a blowe and stoode astonied vnder it yet you cryed out a Syllogisme a Syllogisme to make men beleeue that you were not touched Now you shal haue Syllogismes answere to them directly and shortly Thus I proue the sufficiencie of the scripture without traditions What the Apostles taught viua voce by liuely voyce that also they wrote But they taught viua voce whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Therefore they wrote also whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Camp Nego argumentum I deny the Argument Charke It is a Syllogisme you woulde haue denied my Maior I thinke Camp Proue your Maior then Charke What care they had ouer the Churches present the same care they had ouer the Churches to come afterwarde But their care ouer the Churches present was to open to them all the counsell of God Therefore they left the like prouision in writing to al posterity that they might be instructed in all the counsell of God Camp I answere to the Maior They had the same care but in such sort as it was expedient It was not expedient that they shoulde write all and euery sillable that they spake and yet notwithstanding they disclosed all the counsell of God either in speciall or generall words written Charke Uery wel then we are come to the issue of the matter and you graunt the question that all doctrine both concerning faith and maners is either in speciall or generall words conteined in the Scripture Camp I agree But heare mine answere out of S. Augustine against Crestonius Where it can not be aduouched in scripture by speciall words that the baptisme of heretikes is good yet it is deliuered in the scripture by generall wordes forasmuch as the scripture doeth command vs to obey the Church which hath allowed this baptisme being conferred in forma Ecclesiae So the doctrines not particularly discoursed in scriptures are yet conteyned in these wordes Obey your prelates The Church is the pillar and supporter of trueth And if he heare not the Church let him be to thee an Ethnike and Publicane Charke You say particular matters are conteined in those general words Obey your Prelates Do you meane that we must obey them in causes not conteined in the word Then you may binde vs to what you list and disalowe what yee please Therefore syr that I may seeke your corners and finde you out what meane you by this when you say that Generall commandementes allowe particular traditions Camp I named not traditions Charke But it is the effect and scope of your speache for obedience to your Church Prelates in matters not expressed in the Scriptures Camp I saye there be poyntes wherein wee accorde with you as the baptisme of heretiques the baptisme of infantes the holy ghost proceeding from the father and the sonne that baptisme is a Sacrament and Preaching is none being both commaunded at one time that the Eucharist is a Sacrament and washing of feete none being commanded at one time and such like c. Charke To say that the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is not expressed in the scripture is a blasphemous speach Camp Shewe me any sentence expressing it in the scripture Charke It sufficeth to shewe it inferred in the scripture by good proofes of consequence implication But what say you to traditions decrees and such like which the Church of Rome maintayneth as the very word it selfe Let vs speake of them being now in question and not breake out into newe matters not in controuersie Camp I will not go from my question Charke You shall come to it if you take vpon you the defence of your traditions which I disproue in this maner If the Apostles left nothing vnwritten that is necessarie to saluation the scriptures are sufficient But the Apostles haue left nothing vnwritten necessarie to saluation Therefore the scriptures are sufficient Camp I graūt it as before referring it to that
I teache euery where in euery Church That he wrote and taught in one Church he wrote and taught in another and therefore 2. Cor. 1. he saith Nam gloriatio nostra est testimoniuÌ„ conscientiae nostrae c. Non enim alia scribimus vobis quam quâ—… legitis agnoscitis For this is our glorie euen the testimonie of our conscience c. For we write no other things vnto you then which you reade and knowe in deede Againe 2. Cor. 2. Quales sumus sermone per epistolas cum absumus tales sumus cum adsumus facto The same that we are in speach by our Epistles when we are absent such we are also when we are present Camp The same no contrarietie For there were afterwards many scriptures that were not then written Nowe therefore could they teache all thinges This Epistle was not then written and diuers others The meaning is they taught one Faith one Christ one doctrine but hee speaketh not of the Scriptures Walker He taught the same things that Moses and the Prophetes taught Quales sumus sermone per Epistolas tales facto Camp I graunt the same testimonies out of Moses and the Prophetes and Paul was as stout in speaking as in doing But what proueth this against me For he sayd more then he wrote Walker He sayd no more then is written in the Scripture Camp It is true that the Apostles proued all that they preached out of the scriptures out of the Lawe and the Prophetes and thereby iustified their preaching and yet that parte of the newe Testament which was afterwards written was not superfluous therefore sufficiencie employeth not that it must be expressed but that it may be gathered Walker You are one absent and another present You would bring in Idolatrie vnder the name of your traditions but I shew you that whatsoeuer we are to receaue it must be in the scripture Camp These are but wordes they neede no answere Walker Well I wil vrge you with matter out of Ambrose 1. Cor. 4. Super verba regnetis vt nos vobiscum regnemus Quicquid ab Apostolis tradituÌ„ non est sceleribus plenum est Whatsoeuer is not taught and deliuered by the Apostles is full of wickednes Camp He disputes against false Apostles and by waye of comparison he seuereth the traditions of Catholiques from those of Heretikes and this he doth to shew the difference of traditions and not to condemne traditions Walker It is an vniuersall proposition that all traditions that came not from the Apostles are full of wickednes but those which they wrote came not from them Ambrose also lib. 3. dc virginibus Nos noua omnia quae Christus non docuit iure damnamus quia sidelibus via Christus est Si igitur Christus non docuit quod docomus etiam nos id detestabile iudicamus We doe iustly condemne all new things which Christ hath not taught because Christ is the way vnto the faithfull If therefore Christ hath not taught that which we teache wee also doe iudge that to bee most detestable Campion This is against false prophetes whereof there were many that then went abrode from place to place teaching many things vnder the names of the Apostles that were none of theirs Walker Uery well So there are things taught by you vnder their names which are none of theirs wherefore we may conclude you to be in the number of false prophetes Christ saith Iohn 15. Omnia quae audiui à patre meo nota feci vobis I haue shewed all things to you which I haue heard of my father He shewed all thinges necessarie to saluation and therefore this is the conclusion Iohn 20. Haec scripta sunt vt vitam habeatis ideo vita consistit in ijs quae scripta sunt These things are written that ye might haue life therefore life consisteth in those things which are written Tertullian de praescriptionibus Haereticorum Apostolos enim domini habemus authores qui nec ipsi quicquam ex suo arbitrio quod inducerent eligerunt sed acceptam à Christo disciplinam fideliter nationibus assignauerunt Itaque etiamsi Angelus de coelis aliter euangelizaret c. We haue the Apostles for our authors who neither themselues chose any thing that they brought in of their owne brayne but they faithfully assigned that discipline which they had receiued from Christ to the nations Therefore albeit an Angell should preach otherwise from heauen c. Campion Christ did teach all and therefore the Apostles writte all that Christ taught Nego argumentum I deny the argument Walker Why Haec scripta sunt vt vitam habeamus These things are written that wee may haue life what neede wee more Campion Enough is written but in such sorte as was sayd before either in generall wordes or speciall either discoursed or touched Walker Although as the Euangelist saith Iohn 21. Multa alia fecit Iesus in conspectu discipulorum suorum quae non sunt scripta in hoc libro Iesus did many other things in the sight of his disciples which are not written in this booke as true it is hee wrought many miracles before his death to declare himselfe to be the sonne of God and after his resurrection to declare that he had a true bodie which both did suffer and was raysed vp agayne And Luke Act. 1. sayth Scripsi tibi Theophile de omnibus quae Christus tum fecit tum docuit I haue written vnto thee o Theophilus concerning all things which Christ both hath done hath taught He saith De omnibus non singulis For then if euery particular worde and act of Christ had bene written the worlde could not haue receiued the volumes of bookes that should haue bene written Iohn 2. 5 9. But these things are written Iohn 20. 9. that ye might beleeue and in beleeuing haue eternall life Wherefore Scrutamini scripturas quia in ijs non alibi vita quaerenda Iohn 5. Searche the scriptures because in them is life and not els where to be sought Charke This you haue beene inforced to graunt that all thinges necessarie to saluation are contained manifestly in the Scriptures Campion I graunt it with my distinction they are either manifestly written or conteined vnder that generall commaundement Obey your prelates Charke To proue that whatsoeuer you teache ought to bee in the written worde of GOD I haue a plaine place out of Tertullian against Hermogenes which also maketh strongly against you His wordes are these Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis officina si non est scriptum timeat vae illud adijcientibus aut detrahentibus destinatum Let Hermogenes schole shewe that it is written if it be not written let him feare that curse appointed for them which adde or take from the scriptures Campion Where say you is this place of Tertullian Charke In his booke aduersus Hermogenem Camp Aduersus Hermogenem I thinke ye are deceiued there is no such booke in Tertullian
tantum loco esse potest veritas autem eius vbique diffusa est c. The body of Christ wherein hee rose againe from the dead can be onely in one place but the trueth of Christ is spread euery where Campion All this is true according to nature but in the sacrament it is a miracle Goade Augustine denieth any miracle to bee in the Sacramentes therefore you can not flee to miracle The very words I nowe remember not but I am sure I haue read it to that effect Fulke His wordes are as I thinke Sacramenta honorem vt religio sa habere possunt stuporem vt mira habere non possunt Our Sacraments may haue reuerence as things religious holy but they can not be wondered at as things straunge miraculous Goade Peter saith Act 3. Whome the heauens must holde till the restauration of all things Campion What will you make him a prisoner nowe in heauen must he be bound to those properties of a naturall body Heauen is his palace and you would make it his prison Goade They are the wordes of the holy Ghost Whom the heauens must conteine vntill c. It becommeth not you so to iest at them and specially considering your state being a prisoner ye should not so play with the worde of God I see nowe the modestie I heard reported to be in you is cleane contrary I would to God you would make more conscience in speaking more reuereâ—…ly of such Diuine matters Campion I am a prisoner for religion but touching Christ his bodie why I pray you might not thaâ—… same naturall bodie which by nature being heauy and yet ascended vpward steppe by steppe and pearced those thicke Christall heauens which are harder then any christall walked vpon the waters and â—…orow the doore being shut why may not the same â—…y like 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 many places at once Fulke It were a hard matter for you to prooue that the heauens are harder then christall Campion I can proue it Goade The text doeth not say that hee came thorowe the doores being shut but hee came when the doores were shut the doores by his diuine power giuing place to his body as the brasen gates in the Actes did vnto Peter of their owne accorde Besides these other thinges you speake of they were extraordinarie workes c. CaÌ„p The text is plaine that he came in by a great miracle Fulke First there is no wordes in the â—…xt to enforce a miracle notwithstanding I am content to graunt that he came in miraculously which might bee either the doores opening of their owne accord vnto him as was saide they did vnto Peter or by giuing place vnto his diuine power Camp If he neither came thorowe the doores nor wrought a miracle how came he in Belike he played some iugling tricke Fulke That is a vile blasphemy It appeareth you haue great reuerence of Christ that speake so blasphemously of him and beare no more reuerence to his holy worde Campion Why what would you call it if it were not a miracle it must be some such thing Fulke It might be a miracle though he came not thorow the doore for he came after the doores were shutte Is it a necessarie consequence to say such a one came in after the doores were shut ergo he came thorow the doores What tempus is the verbe Campion I thinke it be the Aoriste Fulke The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I pray you what tempus is it Campion The perfect tempus euen as clausis the Latine worde is Fulke But you did English it before the doores being shut which is the present tempus Campion You know it is the phrase of our English speach Fulke Our Englishe phrase will beare as well after the doores were shut Here Master Lieutenaunt shewed them the time was past and so they left off William Fulke Roger Goade A remembrance of the conference had in the tower with Edmund Campion Iesuite by William Fulke and Roger Goade Doctors in Diuinitie the 23. of September 1581. as foloweth The assertions of Campion were these 1. Christ is in the blessed Sacrament substantially very God and very man in his naturall body The 2. After the wordes of consecration the bread and wine are transubstantiated into the body and blood of Christ. FIrst Master Lieutenaunt in a short and pithie speache exhorted Campion to consider what great fauour her Maiestie shewed him that hee might haue conference with the learned to reforme his errours when they shoulde bee playnely conuinced out of the worde of God c. Campion I do acknowledge that I am beholding to her Maiestie If she haue appoynted this conference to instruct me thinking me to be out of the way I can not but be thankefull to her Maiestie for the same Yet I protest being resolute in my conscience that I come not with my minde so suspended as to doubt of my cause but my intent is to doe you good as you would instruct me so would I instruct you as you would drawe me so would I drawe you Therefore take my intent in good part as I would do yours I come to giue an accoÌ„pt of my faith I am not vnresolute This said he crossed himselfe after his superstitious maner Fulke Let vs begin with prayer O eternall and most mercifull God we humbly thanke thy Maiestie that thou hast lightened our mindes with the knowledge of thy trueth we hartily beseeche thee to confirme encrease our faith alwayes in the same and at this time graunt that we may so defende thy trueth that thou mayest haue the glory the obstinate heretike may be confouÌ„ded the weake may be strengthened we all may be edisied in Iesus Christ through whome we make our prayers and to whome with thee and the holy Ghost the Spirite of trueth be all honour and glory Amen We are earnestly moued because of the confusion the other day that it might be auoyded nowe to desire that we might haue some Moderator if we might intreate any of these learned men that are present to take the paynes otherwise that it might please Master Lieutenaunt when one argument is done to commaunde vs to go to another And also when we haue accepted an answere not to suffer the aduersarie to carie the matter with multitude of wordes so that we be neither forced to leaue our argument as though we could followe it no longer nor the aduersarie permitted with large discourses to spende the time vnprofitably contrary to the right meaning of this conference But before we enter into the matters appoynted wee haue to discharge our credite for the authoritie of the Fathers whom we alleadged the last day in the afternoone when wee had not the bookes ready to shewe because the question was then vpon the suddaine both chosen and disputed vpon all within two houres whereupon we promised to bring the bookes as this day because the aduersarie would not credite our allegations