32. that r. the. 260. 3. petram r. PetruÌ„ 276. 6. den r. doome 279. 3. deforme r. defame 280. 14. vncertainly r. vnreuereÌ„tly l. 38. vvith r. vvhich 281. 4. challeng r. calling 297. 17. Barbarita r. Borberitae 314. 13. Cyrians r. Collyridianes A RETENTIVE TO STAY GOOD CHRISTIANS IN THE TRVETH OF THE GOSPELL WRITTEN BY W Fulke against the Motiues of R. Bristow and by him directed to his friends of the Popish Church AMong such English papistes as haue written within these twentie yeares against the religion of God nowe mainteyned by publike authoritie in this Realme some haue shewed greate witte some muche readinge some flowing eloquence some all these indifferently but among them all none hath shewed lesse witte learning or good vtterance then this Richard Bristow So much the more doe I meruell when I heare that many Papistes make so great accompt of his witlesse and senselesse writinges But it fareth with them as with litle children to whome newe trifles seeme alwayes most worthy to be played with al. And verily I had thought of all other least to haue delt against this peuish prater both because he bringeth no newe matter but such as in other of his cote was with more coullor of trueth set foorth before and also for that I had alreadie made aunswere to Ryshtons challenge which as I take it is that table of the Church which Bristowe confesseth to conteine all his demaundes whiche demaundes are almost all conteined in his motiues But my friendes requiring mee not onely to aunswere this but all other writinges also of the papistes what soeuer they haue set foorth in the englishe tongue since the happie raigne of our soueraigne Ladie I haue condescended to confute euen that which deserueth no confutation and somewhat the rather because Bristow would haue this alone to bee a sufficient motiue vnto poperie that wee hauing nothing to gainesay most of their popish bookes haue not dared I vse his owne wordes once to goe about the aunswering of most of the saide Catholikes bookes But are faine to get them forbidden by proclamation althoughe ourselues haue prouoked confidently the Catholikes to write them Whervppon also he noteth that Iewels challenge is turned into proclamations how rightly or truly he that hath but halfe an eye may see His preface to the reader conteining neuer an argument or motiue which is not repeated either in the treatise it self of motiues or in the demaundes I will passe ouer and come to the firste motiue gathering the principall contentes out of his owne table as I haue done with the rest Name of Catholikes The verie name of Catholikes a certaine marke of right Catholikes Iewel vnwars testifieth the Romane religion to be Catholik Laâ—rence HuÌ„frâ—is Troian horse his pseudocatholicâ— Luthers consciens the Catholike Church to be against him Pontaâ—us erred not whose historie Humfrey himselfe vnawars confirmeth For Catholikes saith he were present as lookers on and earnest defenders What then â— but none such were moderators saue onely lay Lordes and vnlearned heretikes ergo The first motiue is the 6. demaunde In whiche he woulde proue the verie name of Catholikes to whoÌ„ soeuer it is giuen to be a certain marke of right Catholikes to be knowen as readely easely and certainely by that name as such a citie is knowne by the name of London and such a countrie by the name of England If euer he learned any logike at Oxforde he left it behinde him or else lost it by the way when hee ranne ouer the sea For if all thinges may bee knowen by the name whereby they are coÌ„monly called nothing beareth a false name all Idoles are true gods and saintes al deade carcales be liuing men Yea all heretikes which are commonly called Christians in respecte of Iewes Turkes be true Christians But we must bring him a companie of men commonly knowne by the name of Catholikes which proued heretikes Forsooth the Arrians among themselues were commonly called bv the name of Catholikes and so reputed and taken when the true Catholikes were called homousians and heretikes yea all heretikes among the Pagans were coÌ„monly knowen by the name of Christians whiche â— thinke is as glorious a name as the name of Catholikes Yet Augustine saith â—ee maketh much of the name of Catholikes Cont. â—â— Fund c. 4. Tâ—net me postremò c. Last of all the verie name of the Catholike Church doeth holde me which not without cause amongest so many heresies this Church alone hath so obteined that whereas all heretikes would haue themselues to be called Catholikes yet to a straunger which asketh where men meete at the Catholike Church none of the heretikes dare shewe either their minster or house But let vs see howe Augustine and Bristow agree Augustine maketh this name the last motiue Bristowe the first Augustine ioyneth it with many thinges Bristowe maketh it alone to be a sufficient motiue Augustine in the nexte sentence after confesseth the playne demonstration of the trueth wheresoeuer it may be shewed to bee preferred before al those motiues of Vniuersalitie miracles consente succession and name of Catholikes by which he saith that he might be helde in the Catholke Churche although he grounded no argument vppon that wisedome which the Maniches would not acknowledge to be in the catholike church his words are these Apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat sola personat veritatiae pollicitatio quâ—e quidens sutam manifesta monstratur vt in dubium venire non possit praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in Catholica tenâ—or Among you Maniches saith he where there is none of these thinges whiche might allure and hold me the onely promisle of trueth doth sounde whith trueth if it be shewed so manifeste that it caÌ„not come in doubt it is to be preferred before al those things by which I am helde in the Catholike Church This is Augustines iudgement of such simple motiues which with the trueth may helpe to confirme it but are not worth a straw when they are alledged against the truth Wherfore seing we make so plaine demonstration of the trueth out of Gods word that no maÌ„ can doubt of it but such as will followe the bare name of Catholike contrarie to the Catholike doctrine of the scriptures against all such vaine motiues wee may be bolde to oppose the trueth it selfe What a mockerie is this that hee saith that anâ—eretike in Germanie being asked where the Catholike Church is will point to â—â—â—â— popish Church Admit this to be so doth this proue the Massing Church to bee the Catholike Church In France if you aske a Papist which is y e reformed Church he will point you to the place where the congregation of true Christians vse to assemble Doth the Papist therfore acknowledge the Church of protestantes to bee in deede the reformed Churche Iâ— hee doe not the name of Catholikes proueth no more on the one syde theÌ„ the
A RETENTIVE TO STAY GOOD CHRISTIANS IN TRVE FAITH and religion against the motiues of Richard Bristow ALSO A DISCOVERIE OF THE DAVNGEROVS ROCKE OF THE POPISH Church commended by Nicholas Sander D. of Diuinitie Done by VVilliam Fulke Doctor of diuinitie and Maister of Pembroke hall in Cambridge Imprinted at London by Thomas Vautroullier for George Bishop 1580. A CATALOGVE OF ALL SVCH POPISH BOOKES EITHER AVNSVVERED or to be aunswered which beeinge written in the English tongue from beyond the seas or secretly dispersed here in England haue come to our hands since the beginning of the Queenes Maiesties reigne 1 HArding against the Apologie of the English Church aunswered by M. Iewell Bishop of Sarum 2 Harding against M. Iewells challenge aunswered by M. Iewell 3 Hardings reioynder to M. Iewell aunswered by M. Edward Deering 4 Coles quarrels against M. Iewell aunswered by M. Iewell 5 Rastels returne of vntruths answered by M. Iewel 6 Rastel against M. Iewels challenge aunswered by William Fulke 7 Dorman against M. Iewel answered by M. Nowel 8 Dormans disproofe of M. Nowels reproofe aunswered by M. Nowell 9 The man of Chester aunswered by M. Pilkington Bishop of Duresme 10 Sanders on the Sacrament in part aunswered by M. Nowell 11 Fecknams Scruples aunswered by M. Horne B. of Winchester 12 Fecknams Apologie aunswered by W. Fulke 13 Fecknams obiections against M. Goughes sermoÌ„ aunswered by M. Gough and M. Lawrence Tomson 14 Stapletons counterblast answered by M. Bridges 15 Marshall his defence of the crosse aunswered by M. Caulfehill 16 Fowlers Psalter aunswered by M. Sampson 17 An infamous libell or letter incerto authore against the teachers of Gods diuine prouidence predestination aunswered by Robert Crowley 18 Allens defence of Purgatory aunswered by W. Fulke 19 Heskins Parleament repealed by W. Fulke 20 An offer of a Catholickque to a learned Protestant answered by W. Fulke 21 Hosius of Gods expresse word translated into English aunswered by W. Fulke 22 Sanders rocke of the popish church vndermined by W. Fulke 23 Sanders defence of Images answered by W. Fulk 24 Marshals reply to Caulfhill answered by W. Fulk 25 Shaclockes pearle aunswered by M. Hartwell 26 The hatchet of heresies aunswered by M. Bartlet 27 M. Euans aunswered by him selfe 28 A defence of the priuate Masse aunswered by coniecture by M. Cooper Bishop of Lincolne 29 Certaine assertions tending to maintayne the Church of Rome to be the true Catholique Church confuted by Iohn Knewstub 30 Bristowes motiues and demaunds aunswered by W. Fulke 31 Stapletons fortresse of the faith aunswered by W. Fulke These Popish treatises ensuing for the most part are in aunsvvering those vvhich are not by Gods assistance as time vvill serue shall receiue their seuerall replyes If the Papistes knovv any not here reckoned let them be brought to light and they shall be examined 1 Sanders vpon the Lordes supper partly vnaunswered 2 Allens defence of Priestes authoritie to remitte sinnes and of the Churches meaning concerning indulgences 3 Stapletons returne of vntruthes 4 Rastells reply 5 Vaux his Catechisme 6 Canisius his Catechisme translated 7 Frarins oration translated 8 Iohn de Albynnes discourse against heresies enâ—â—â—hed with an offer of a Catholique to a learned Protestant which offer is aunswered vnder the name of Ristons articles by W. Fulke 9 Gregor Martins treatise of schisme 10 Poyntes of the Sacrament A REASONABLE REQVEST AND PROTESTATION OF W. Fulke to all learned Papists FOrasmuch as there is no ende of writing bookes as the wise man sayth and that the truth of argumentes is best discerned when it is brought vnto the iudgement of Logicke which is the arte of reasoning If any of the learned Papistes will reply against these and other mine aunsweres I require that as well for their owne ease as that I may haue time to peruse them and the readers no impediment but that they may clearely iudge of them they wil leaue of all vayne discourses and needelesse questions and only conclude the coÌ„trouersies of religion that are betwene vs in the strict forme of Logicall argumentes If to this reasonable request they refuse to yeelde I protest before God and the world that they shew them selues thereby to be enemies of the truth that they flie the light and dare not abide the triall Faultes escaped The first number signifieth the page the last the number of the lines Pag. 12. lin 1. Homousian r. Homousion 13. 10. last r. least 15. 8. Arrius r. AErius 15. 14. your r. there 15. 18. vvherefore r. vvhereof 15. 27. recited r. reuiued 20. 26. Iudaea r. India 27. 27. virtute r. vnitate 30. 24. coÌ„maunded r. commended 34. 32. other r. ether 36. 33. heare r. hovv 40. 14. circumstituantur r. circumstipantur 40. 37 audient r. audirent 42. 23. cere r. cura 44. 10. condemned r. conteÌ„ned 44. 36. caâ—c r. con 45. 18. true r. foure 48. 37. Marcellus r. Marcellinus 55. 19. Hovv r. Novv 58. 15. persvvadeth r. presupposeth 67. 38. r. in a maner depend 68. 11. resisting r. receiuing 68. 28. and r. an 73. 1â— quaeque r. quoque 79. 29. RipanuÌ„ r. Riparium 80. 35. Babicas r. Babilas 80. 38. for r. to 81. 7. troubles r. tombes 81. 16. Reg r. â— Reg. 13. 81. 17. lavves r. bones 82. 30. verity r. vnity 87. 10. contâ—et r. coÌ„teret 88. 2. sending r. studying 88. 33. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 88. 36. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 89. 14. v 11. r. 14. 90. 36. nor r. are 90. 38. r. vvere not better applied 92. 37. ber 2. r. ver 21. 25. learning r. hearing 95. 14. r. if by masse 95. 25. consecrated r. vnconsecrated 96. 34. that the churches of the Britans vvere of another forme then those of the Romanes 96. 35. Niua r. Ninia 99. 18. names r. nonus 100. 19. serueth r. seemeth 100. 30. austerity r. authority 103. 9. apostolicall r. apostaticall 107. 21. all our 111. 11. saue r. serue 112. 38. truly r. fondly 116. 7. shall r. should 117. 36. Bzia r. Bizari 120. 23. not r. out 127. 2. maÌ„ r. may 123. 5. rehearsed r. released 131. 23. do not vvell r. do vvell Out of the discouery of the rocke Pag. 140. Lin. 25. if read that 141. 28. or r. c. 144. 24. fuit r. sint 150. 14. receyued r. recited 20. r. these tvvo 155. l. vlt. Rhetianus r. Rhetitius 158. 2. controuersie r. conuersion 159. 5. many r. men 163. 31. vilant r. vigilant 165. 26. this r. these 167. 4 not r. as l. vlt. r. vvhich ma y. 173. 30. confirmed r. considered 176. 24. godlines r. lordlines 177. 34. that r. this true r. tvvo 189. 6. vvhen r. vvhom l. 12. put out prayse 204. 30. instituteth r. intituleth 208. 35. offered r. before made 228. 7. vnee r. ounce 232. 11. r that it l. 15. Caebastinus r. Caelestinus 233. 5. generally r. generall 236. 13. austerity r. authority 256. 1. and r. no. 250. 32. fostered r. fastened 247. 3. idio r. ideo 272.
be seene in England yet they that had spirituall eyes and by Gods grâ—ce drewe neare vnto his Church did in the most obscure tymes as the worlde esteemeth them see the cleare bewtie of her light and the glorye of the Lordes hill lifted vp aboue all the hills in the world Esa. 2. The heathen tyrants thought by their cruell persecution that they had vtterly rooted out the name and nation of Christians from the face of the earth Nero gloried that he had purged the world of the superstition of Christ as appeareth in an olde inscription in a picture of stone Neroni â—l Caes. Aug. Pontif. Max. ob prouin latromb hijs qui nouam generi hum superstitionem inculcar purgatam To Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus the greatest Prelate for that he hath purged the prouince of theeues and them that brought in a newe superstition to mankind Likewise another like piller there is of Diocletian and Maximian in these wordes Diocletian Iouius Maximi Herculeus Caes. Augu. Amplificato per Orientem Occident nup. Rom. nomme Christianorum deleto quiremp euertebant Diocletianus Iouius and Maximianus Herculeus Caesaris Augusti hauing amplified the Empire of Rome both in the East and West and vtterly destroyed the name of Christians which did ouerthrow the common wealth Another like there is of Diocletian alone Diocletian Caes. Aug. Galerio in Oriente adoptat superstitione Christi vbique deleta cultu Deorum propagato Diocletianus Caesar Augustus hauing adopted Galerius in the East and in all places vtterly destroyed the superstition of Christ and set forth the worship of the Gods By these inscriptions and glorious titles you see that the heathenish tyrants perswaded them selues that they had vtterly defaced the religion of Christ destroyed his Church out of the worlde what maruell then if Antichrist and his adherents which to the cruelty of the former tyrants haue added most detestable hypocrisy haue thought that they had so wholy subuerted the true religion of Christ and his true Church that the name ether of Church or religion might not seeme to haue remayned in the world but that of the Romish Antichrist But as Nero the Pontif. Maximus of Rome with Diocletiane and the reste were deceyued in their time so their successors in place office and wickednes the Popes of Rome are likewise disapoynted of their cruell purpose But M. Sander glorieth that in all markes and signes of the true Church the popish Church doth excel ours But first of all that which is the onely true marke and triall of the Church namely the word of God he denyeth to be a sufficient marke of the true Church yet had he before confessed the Church to be the piller and stay of truth 1. Tim. 3. but the rule of truth if we beleue our Sauiour Christ is the word of God Iohn 17. 17. therefore the word of God is the onely true tryall and marke of the Church But let vs consider his reasons by which he woulde perswade vs that y e word of God is not the chiefe marke whereby the true Church of God may be knowen First he sayth the marke whereby an other thing is knowne ought it selfe to be most exactly knowne wheras we are not agreed what Gods word is Note this reason of his by which he taketh away all authoritie and vse from the worde of God not onely thereby to discerne the true Church but also to teache vs any other thinge that is needefull for vs to know But why I pray you are we not agreed what is Gods word Forsooth because some cal onely the written letter and the meaning thereof Gods word other thinke many thinges are Gods word which are not expressely written but deliuered by tradition from the Apostles and by the holy Ghost which hath written his lawes in our hartes of this later sort be the Papists but they are easily confuted For this principle must needes stand vnmoueable that Gods spirite is neuer contrary to him selfe Therefore seeing the spirite of God hath pronounced of the Scriptures that they are able to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes 2. Tim. 3. 16. it is certayne that God hath reuealed nothing by tradition for our instructioÌ„ which is not conteyned in his worde written much lesse any thing that is contrary to his doctrine deliuered in the holy Scriptures His second reason is that we are not agreed vpon the written word of God because the Protestants doe not admitte so many bookes of the olde testament as the Catholikes doe I aunswer the Protestants doe admit as many as the Catholike Church euer did or doth at this day His third reasoÌ„ is that the meaning of those bookes which we are agreed vpon is altogether in question betwene vs therfore that can be no marke of the church which it self is not knowne I answer although heretikes which are ouerthrowen in their owne conscience will acknowledge no meaning to be true but their owne yet are there many principles in the Scriptures so playne as they are graunted by both partes or els can not without shame be denyed of our aduersaries out of which playne certeyne and immutable principles all matters in controuersie may be proued and the same church also discerned which is the verie cause why the Papistes dare not abide the triall by the Scriptues but flye to traditions euen as their forefathers the auncient Valentinian heretikes of whome Irenaeus writeth lib. 3. cap. 2. Cum ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsaruÌ„ Scripturam quasi non rectè habeant neque fuit ex auctoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit ab his inueniriveritas qui nesciant traditionem non enim per literas traditam sed per viuam vocem When they are conuinced out of the Scriptures then fall they to accusing of the Scriptures them selues as though they were not right nor of sufficient authoritie because they are spoken doubtfully and that the trueth cannot be found of them which knowe not the tradition for that was not deliuered by letters but by word of mouth Thus much Ireneus of the olde Heretikes and what his iudgement was of the meaning of the Scripture which M. Sand. maketh so ambiguous he declareth lib. 2. cap. 35. Vniuersae scripturae Propheticae Euangelicae in aperto sine ambiguitat similiter ab omnibus audiri possunt c. The whole Scriptures both of the Prophets and of the Gospells are open and without ambiguitie may be heard of all meÌ„ alike This speaketh Irenaeus not of euery text of Scripture but of the whole doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles which is so playne and easie to be founde in the Scriptures that no man can misse thereof that seeketh not of purpose to be deceyued as he sayth cap. 67. of the same booke But M. Sander is content for disputation sake to admit Gods word for a marke of the true Church and
will proue that it is first with the Papistes For if by Gods word we meane the written letter of the Bible they are before vs because we haue none assured copies thereof which we receyued not of them for since that day in which S. Peter and S. Paule deliuered Gods word to the Romaines the Church of Rome hath alwayes kept it without leesing or corrupting I aunswer we meane not by Gods worde the written letter onely but receyuing and obeying the true and playne sense thereof to be the marke of the Church Againe I deny that we had any assured copies of the olde and new testament of the popish Church but the one of the Iewes in Hebrue the other of the Greeke Church in Greeke And whereas he talketh of a certayne daye in which S. Peter and S. Paule deliuered the Scripture to the Romains it sauoreth altogether of a popish fable finally how the Romish Church in these last dayes hath kept the Scripture from corruption although I coulde shew by an hundreth examples yet this one shall suffice for all the very first promise of the Gospell that is in the Scripture Gen. 3. that the seede of the woman shoulde breake the serpents heade the popish Church hath ether willfully corrupted or negligently suffered to be depraued thus ipsa conteret caput iuum she shall breake thyne heade referring that to the woman which God speaketh expressely to the seede of the woman The second marke is that the Papistes acknowledge more of the Bible then we doe by the bookes of Toby Iudeth Wisedom Ecclesiasticus and of the Machabees I aunswer in that you adde vnto the word of God it is a certayne argument that you are not the true Church of Christ for the true Church of Christ hath euer accompted those bookes for apocryphall witnesse hereof Hieronym praef in prouerb Sicut ergo Iudith Tobiae Machabaeorum libros legit quidem Ecclesia sed eos inter Canonicas Scripturas non recipit sic haec duo volumina legat ad aedificationem plebis non ad auctoritateÌ„ EcclesiasticoruÌ„ dogmatum confirmandam Therefore as the Church doth in deede reade the bookes of Iudith Tobias and of the Machabees but she receyueth them not among the canonicall Scriptures so she may reade these two bookes meaning the booke of Wisedom and Ecclesiasticus for the edifying of the people but not to confirme the authoritie of Ecclesiasticall opinions Nether is Augustine de doct Christ. lib. 2. cap. 8. whoÌ„ M. Sander quoteth of any other iudgement but prescribeth rules how the canonicall Scriptures are to be knowne And cont Gaudent epist. lib. 2. cap. 23. he confesseâ—h plainely that the booke of Machabees is not accompted of the Iewes as the law the Prophets and the Psalmes which our Sauiour Christ admitteth as his witnesses yet it is receyued of the Church if it be read or heard soberly Whereby it is manifest that the Church in his tyme receyued it not absolutely as part of the Canonicall Scripture but vnder condition of a sober reader or hearer As for the decree ascribed to Gelasius it hath no sufficient credit of antiquitie and much lesse the late councels of Florence and Trent which he quoteth Beside that the same decree of Gelasius admitting but one booke of Esdras excludeth the Canonicall booke of Nehemias and receyueth but one booke of the Machabees which will doe the Papistes but small pleasure The third marke the popish Church receyueth not only the hebrue text of the old testament the greeke of the new but also the greeke translation of the septuaginta and the common Latine translation to be of full authoritie whereas we giue small credit to those translations except they agree with the first Hebrue and Greeke copies Therefore the Papists haue Gods word in more authenticke tongues and copies then we haue I aunswer The Tridentine councell alloweth none for authenticall but the common Latine translation that is the worst of all but in that the popish Church admitteth differing translations from the originall truth of the Hebrue and Greeke text to be of full authoritie with the truth it appeareth plainely that she is not the Church of Christ which ether willfully confoundeth error with truth or els lacketh the spirite of discretion to know the one from the other And for more authentike copies it is impudently sayd that the Papistes doe receiue for we receiue not onely all these which he nameth but also the most auncieÌ„t Chaldee Paraphrastes the Syrian text of the new testament yea the Arabicall text of the whole Bible beside all vulgare translations of English French Dutch Italian Spanish which the Papistes can not abide All those I saye we receyue as authenticall copies for Christian men to vse but so that the tryall of all translations be made by the originall truthe of the Hebâ—ue and Greeke texts in which tongue the olde and newe Testament were first written Fourthly the Papistes doe translate and expounde Gods worde in all maner of tongues better then we because they haue not onely internall vocation but also externall vocation and commission from the Apostles by lyneall succession of Bishops and Preestes whereas we haue no commission but â—rom the common wealth which hath none authoritie to make Preestes c and yet how shall they preache if they be not sent Rom. 10. I aunswer concerning translations of the word of God into all tongues I neuer saw any nether is there any translation to be shewed of any Papist into any vulgare tongue And as for the externall calling of the Papistes I say it is not from any lawfull succession of the Apostles and auncient Church whose faith and doctrine they do not follow in their interpretations for if lyneall succession of Priestes and Bishops coulde make interpretations good the doctrine of Arius Nestorius Macedonius and many other heretikes whose externall calling was according to the lyneall and ordinary succession of Bishops and Priestes might be auctorised for Catholike Yea the Papistes might not refuse whatsoeuer Luther Bucer Cranmer and other haue taught which had the same lyneall succession that M. Sander doth nowe bragge of And as for our externall calling he sayth falsly it is of the common weale c whereas it is of the Church and therefore ordinarye and lawfull and the saying of S. Paule whom he citeth Rom. the tenth is of the inward calling and sending by God whereof our doctrine agreeable with the Scripture and our whole intent to set forth the glory of God is a sufficient profe the one to satisfie men the other to aunswer our owne conscience Fiftly he sayth it is no perfection at all on our side that we reade Gods word to the people in our Church seruice in the vulgare tongue for thereby we lacke the vse of the better tongues as of the Greeke and Latine O maister of impudencie what vse is there of the Greeke and Latine tongues to be read to the people
the Sacraments haue not fayth 2. Thess. 3. 2. The 8. marke of the Church if not onely the playne vnderstanding of any one sentence but also the circumstance of the place and the conference of Gods worde be necessary the Papists haue vsed it in euery question For proofe herof M. Sanders referreth vs to his treatise of the supper of the Lord lib. 4. and to his booke of Images cap. 2. 11. in this booke to the ca. 2. 4. I answer you make a light shew for a fashion but you nether coÌ„sider the circumstances rightly nor make any true collation of one place with another as is proued by the answers of these bookes Therefore your Academical conclusion is false hereticall blasphemous that the onely word of God being neuer so well handled is no sufficient marke to shew the truth When Christ sayth Sanctifie them in thy truth Thy word is the truth Ioan. 17. 17. The 9. M. Sander sayth the heads of the Church the councels the Bishops and the auncient fathers must be Iudges whether we do well apply the Scriptures or no as whether S. Peter be the rock which M. Iewel denieth he proueth by 16 doctors afterward cap. 4. of w c proofe we shall consider God willing in due place But whereas M. Sander quoteth Aug. cont Iulian. lib. 2. for his rule of Iudges I say he hath no such rule in that booke onely Augustine doth coÌ„uince the argumeÌ„ts of the Pelagians of nouelty by the iudgemeÌ„t of Iren. Cyprianus Rheuanus Ambrosius c. and other which liued before their time and therefore were no partial iudges so do we conuince the Popish heresies and their argumentes of noueltie not only by the manifest worde of God but also by the testimonie of the most auncient fathers although we may not admit all that they did write to be true euen as the same Augustine being pressed with the auctoritie of Ambrose Chrysostome and Cyprian by the Donatists Pelagians prouoketh from them onely to the Scriptures de nat graâ—cap 61. de vnit eccl cap. 16. cont Crescon lib. 2. cap. 31. de gratia Christ. cap. 43. That the allegation of the fathers suffiseth not of it selfe we agree with Maister Sander but that there is any other triall of the truth theÌ„ Scripture we wil neuer graunt seeing God hath therein deliuered his whole doctrine whatsoeuer is necessarie for vs to beleue that we may be saued Ioh. 20. 31. But the Papistes for the tenth marke ioyne tradition and practise of Gods church which can neuer deceaue amaÌ„ VVe thinke sayth Chrysostom the tradition of the church to be worthie of beleefe Is it a tradition aske no further But howe shall we proue it to be a tradition of the church The Valentinians as I shewed before out of Irenaeus denyed the Scriptures to be sufficient without knowledge of the tradition Therfore to discerne the tradition of â—â—â—â— church from the tradition of the heretikes we haue none other triall but by the Scriptures Therefore Chrysostom saith in 2. Cor. Ho. 3. that S. Paule did write the same thinges which he told them before in preaching As for the vniuersall practise either of the Popes supremacy or of the sacrifice of the masse which he braggeth of shall neuer be proued but the contrarie The eleuenth marke is the auctority of generall couÌ„cells confirming the truth condemning heretikes such he maketh the late councell of Trent to be But we deny that Conciliabulum of a few Popish hypocrits to be a generall councell in which no man should haue a definitiue voyce but they that were accused of heresie and whereof he that is most of all charged with heresie that is the Pope is made the supreme iudge wherefore the Papists haue no lawfull generall councell on their side although generall councells as he confesseth are no sufficient triall of the true church both because they may be hindered many wayes and also because they may erre as did the conncells of Arimine and Ephesus In respect of these considerations he maketh the twelfth marke to be the supremacy of the Pope whichis wholly theirs for triall whereof this booke following was written But for proofe that Christ hath appoynted such a iudge ouer all he citeth Ioan. 21. that Christ coÌ„maunded Peter to feede his sheepe as though that perteyned not to euerie one of the Apostles as much as to Peter Also Lu. 22. that Christ hauing praied that Peters faith might not fayle commaunded him when he was conuerted from his fall to confirme his brethren which perteineth only to the person of Peter and can not with any cable ropes be draweÌ„ to the Bishop of Rome or any successor of Peter for it concerneth his singular full comfort duty in respect of his fall Gods mercy except that according to analogy it may be applied to any man that is so raised after his fall and so that precept confirme thy brethren geueth no speciall commaundemeÌ„t to the Pope but to euery man whom God hath mercifully conuerted as he did Peter With the twelfth marke M. Sander would haue ended but that the Protestantes affirme the lawfull preaching of Gods word and the lawfull administration of the Sacramentes to be a marke whereby they wilbe tried But seeing lawfull preaching ministring must be tried by Gods worde M. Sander first asketh what we call Gods word secondly he asketh if he haue not proued it to be more with theÌ„ theÌ„ with vs whatsoeuer it be It is like this Popishe academicall Atheist hath proued Gods word to be on his side â—â—â—â— wil not haue it certeinly known what Gods word is After this he will proue the Papists to be most lawfull preachers because they are likest to the Apostles in conuerting many nations within these 900. yeres wheÌ„ he sayth no man aliue could once heare vs peepe As though controuersie of nations would argue a true church By which reasons not only the Protestants may nowe proue them selues to be most like the Apostles in conuerting so many nations of Europe but also the Arians and most of all the Mahumetists might proue them selues the true church It is not therfore coÌ„uersion of nations but conuersion of theÌ„ to the true doctrine of the Apostles which maketh vs like the Apopostles the Papistes Arians Mahometists most vnlike vnto them And where he saith that no souÌ„d of ours was heard in 900. yeares space by any man aliue to see how impudeÌ„tly he lyeth read Flaccius Illyricus in catalogo testium veritatis you shal see in all ages what monumeÌ„ts are extant of some few whom God reserued from that generall Apostasie of Antichrist Read also the acts monumentes set forth by M. Foxe you shall see the same most plentifâ—lly He wil proue their administration of the Sacraments to be more lawful then ours because they haue fiue more then we But I answer because they haue fiue more then the
name of reformed Christians on the other side that either is such in deede as of the vulgare and ignorant people they are called But why are Protestantes all hereâ—ikes desirous to be called Catholikes but that they which in deede haue the name are also in deede euermore true Catholikes and so the name alone sufficient to moue any man Who euer heard such an asse bâ—aye as though there were no difference whether they haue the name rightfully or wrongfully truely or falsely In all the Easte Church who are called Catholikes but the Grecians Which for many hundreth yeares haue bene separated from the Communion of the Latines and of them are compted for heretikes and Schimatikes But Augustine de vera rel Cap. 7. writeth more plainly for the name of Catholike Tenenda est nobis Christiana c. Wee muste holde the Christian religion and the companie of that Church which is Catholike and called Catholike not onely of her owne but also of her enemies For will they nill they the heretikes also and Schismatikes them selues when they talke not with their own but with strangers they call the Catholike Church nothing but the Catholike Church For they can not else bee vnderstanded excepte they discerne her by that name by which shee is called of the whole world This therefore quoth Bristow is proued they to be Catholikes that Catholikes are called When as Augustine saith we must hold y t church which both is catholike is so called Bristowe the Papist is called by the name of a Cittie in England theresore Bristowe the Papist is in deede a citie in England This therefore is proued that to bee Bristow that Bristow is called But how proueth he that they be called Catholikes The worlde forsooth beareth them witnesse For beside some ignorant fellowe in Germanie that calleth them so or rather not meaning to brable in the streat yealdeth to that tearme not because hee thinketh them to bee so but because he knoweth the Papist which asketh for the Catholike Church seeketh not the Catholike Church in deed but the Popish Church falsely called Catholike beside I say some tankarde bearer boye or gyrle that hath mâ—de such a unswere to Bristowe as he trauelled in Germanie he asketh when in printed bookes they bee called Catholikes whether the reader knoweth not who is meaned Yes verily if the bookes bee written by papistes oâ— such as take neither part But he would â—now further why we mâ—ke name theÌ„ call them Cacolikes or Cartholikes I suppose whosoeuer mocketh them it is because they falsely â—surpe that name which they are not woâ—thie to beare and not because they bee such and the name euill yet againe he asketh why Luther iâ— Germanie did cause the Creede to be turned I beleeue the Christian Church and not I beleeue the Catholike Church Mine answere is I beleeue that Bristowe belyeth Luther for any such change of the creede although he might well expouÌ„d the true Catholike Church by the name of the true Christian Church But Iewel confirmeth the name of Catholike to be theirs or els what meaneth he to entitle his replie Against the Romane religion which of late hath ben accompted Catholike Alas poore Bristow hast thou no better reason to proue the Popish Church to be Catholike but that Iewel saith it hath bene accompted Catholike and proueth that it hath ben falsely accompted so Yes sir not he only but also Pope Humfrey in his Legend of sains Iewel confesseth vs to be Catholikes where he saith that Pontacus erred when he wrot that onely lay men neither learned nor Catholikes were moderators in the disputation at Westminster Why Bristow are you not ashamed to take the name of the lorde your god the Pope in vaine And because Pontacus complaineth that catholikes were not moderators doth Humfrey therefore acknowledge papistes to be Catholikes yea forsooth he doth so and also coÌ„firmeth the storie of Pontacus when he saith Catholikes were present but in the next worde he expoundeth what catholikes namely papistes And som of theÌ„ were also moderators at the least wise one namely D. Heath then occupying the place of the Bishop of Yorke therefore not onely lay Lords vnlearned heretiks as this lewd losel and vnlearned dogbolt trayterous papist I am bold with him because he is so malepert with the learned godly nobilitie of England most slaunderously and maliciously affirmeth were only moderators of that disputation but some of y e Popish faction were not only present but presidents of that action beside all the rest of the popish prelates which then were of the Parliament for information whereof that conference was appointed But Humfrey saith moreouer that the chiefe cause of all euils and as it were the Troian horse within the walles of the Church hath beene hitherto a Catholike defection from the holy scripture and especially your papistrie Therefore saith Bristow hee acknowledgeth vs to be Catholikes In deed you be catholike that is to say vniuersal reuolters froÌ„ y e holy scriptures if that title please you reioyce of it spare not You be Catholike heretiks that is heretikes not in one or two articles of religion but in all in as much as you denie the office of Christe vpon which is grounded all Christiaâ—itie The name of Catholike of it selfe is indifferent to good and euil euen as the name of vniuersall is therefore in our Creede we say not simplie I beleeue the Catholike Church but the holy Catholike Church And therefore D Humfrey in calling you pseudocatholici false Catholikes sheweth what Catholikes he meaneth you to be not members of the holy Catholike Church of godly Christiss but pillers of the false and counterfeit Church of malignant herenkes And whereas you say you haue hearde Humfrey in his fond and vnlearned lectures at Oxford call them pseudocatholiâ—i â—home Faustus the Maniche did entwite for honouring the memorie of Martyrs first you take vpon you like the sowe to entwite Minerua as it is in y e latine prouerb which might better be borne withall in a man of such learning and arte as you shew if you did not also slander belie him as the diuell doth all the saintes of God For although I neuer heard any of his lecturs yet I dare affirme he neuer accompted Augustine and â—â—â—â— godly Catholiks of his time for false Catholikes although hee coulde not allowe of all that Augustine hath written and mainteyned Wherefore it is cleare hee calleth not Augustine and the Catholikes of his time but you Papistes of our time false Catholikes and shewed that to you did truly agree that which Faustus did falsely charge y e true Catholikes with all y t is the turning of Idols into Martirs For Faustus did slander not as you traÌ„slateit onely entwite the true Catholikes for worshipping the Martirs as â—â—â—â— pagans worshipped their Idols Calumniatâ—â—nobis Faustus c. Faustus doth slander vs saith Augustine Againe Non taÌ„ me mouetut hic Calumniae
made God him selfe ofit for there is no doubt but vnto baptisme which is also the sacrament of our pryce she tyed her soule with the bande of faith and so hath euery faithfull Protestant For the sacraments by faith are certaine pledges of our conâ—unction with God through Christ. Into whose death we are ingraffed by baptisme as we are fedde with his body and blood in the supper The place of Augustine is corruptly cited by Bristow who hath cut of both the head and the foote of it which is this Ad vnum Deumtendentes ei vni religantes anâ—mas nostras vnde religio dicta creditâ—r omni superstitione careamus Hauing respect to one God and tying our soules to him onely whereof religion is thought to be called let vs be voyde of all superstition For Monica had respect onely to God when she tyed her soule by faith vnto the seale of Gods promises And she was voyde of superstition when she cleaued to none other ceremonye of coniunction with God but onely to that which was ordeyned of God him selfe for that purpose But howe proueth Bristow that prayer for the deade was vsed alway or that Masse was sayd for the deade Because that in the corrupt tyme of Augustine prayer was vsed for the deade and in the prayers vsed at the celebration of the communion remembraunce was made of the dead This is a strauÌ„ge kind of reasoning that was vsed sometime therefore it was vsed alwayes But how long it was vsed and how it was taken vp I haue shewed in myne aunswer to Allins booke of Purgatory Now commeth S. Gregory to be of Bristowes religion I will not deny but in many errors and superstitions Gregory agreeth with the Papistes but yet not in all nor in some of the chiefest The visions he rehearseth for prayer for y e dead if they were not fayned dreames they were illusioÌ„s of y e deuil because they serue to mainteine that doctrine which is contrary to the Scriptures which teach that after death followeth iudgement immediatly so that no prayers can preuaile Heb. 9. 26. But prophecyes are for Bristowes religion How so I praye you The conuersion of Augustine and the death of Cassius were foretold in vision If both those were grauÌ„ted to be true visions your religion were neuer the better except the conuersion of the one and the death of the other be your religion But admitting the dreame of Monica to be a true vision howe proue you that the Chapeline of Cassius did not fayne his vision after his maister was dead But the dreame of Iudas Machabaeus who sawe the Prophet Ieremy pray for the people is recorded in the Canonical Scripture it selfe sayth Bristow 2. Mach. 15. chap. which Scripture the Protestants reiect because it maketh against them as they would doe all the rest but that they thinke they haue inueÌ„ted shiftes good enough to blinde the worlde What reuerence we beare to the holy Scriptures of God he him selfe our owne conscience and the whole world can testifie And the reiection of such bookes as were not written by the spirite of God doth approue the same Beside the authoritie of the auncient Churche both of the Iewes and Gentills which neuer receiued the same bookes into the canon we haue often made manifest demonstration that they proceeded not from the spirite of God Wherefore the Papistes making them of equall credit with the worde of God incurre the curse of God which is vnto all them that either adde or take away any thing from his holy word But the Papistes are not destitute of visions in these daies for Bristow knoweth a Protestant who hath confessed that he saw in a dreame the communion booke out of many handes cast into a fire and yet the man coÌ„tinueth a Protestant Verely he doth as a good Christian should doe that not onely with no vaine dreames but nether with visions of Angells from heauen he will be moued to condemne that doctrine which he knoweth assuredly to be agreable to the holy Scriptures But there was a Papist in London which came to y e Church against his conscience and sawe a fowle blacke dogge take the communion euer more at the naughty ministers hands as he offred it to the communicants which stroke the Papist so at the hart that he went home and dyed vpon it This deuilish illusion or melaÌ„cholike perswasion of a deuilish dogged Papist thinketh Bristow able to condemne the holy ministration of the Lordes supper warranted by â—â—â—â— Scriptures according to Christes institution As for the extaticall fantasticall dreame of maister Allington tending as I remember to mainteine Idolatrie wise men regard as much as such fantasies deserue after which if we should shape our religion we shoulde alter as often as any mans fonde humor or foolish conceit ministreth newe visions and straunge apparitions But I maâ—uell amonge so many visions that Bristow omitteth the famous vision of Elizeus Hall that came from Manchester to London with a booke of his cold prophecyes to coÌ„uert the Queene the Realme to Papistrie Well sayth Bristow you scorne at our visions and dreames yet was S. Cyprian of our religion Because he defendeth some visions and dreames which were seene in his time which were not to mainteyne any thing coÌ„trary to the Scripture but that which was agreable to the same A poore reason why he should be of your religion And yet it is all the reason that you bringe But for our iudgement of miracles of visions dreames to be motiues in controuersies of the Church you shall heare Augustines sentence De 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae cap. 16. against the Donatistes Remoâ—is ergo omnibus talibâ—s Ecclâ—siam suam demonstrent sipossunt non in sermonibus rumoribus Asrorum non in concilys Episcoporum suorum non in literis quorumlibet d. spâ—tatorum non in signis prodigijs fallaâ—ibus quia etiam contra ista verbo Domini praeparati cauti reddâ—â—i sumus sed in praesâ—ripio legis in Prophetarum praedictis in Psalmorum cantibus in ipsius pastoris vocibus in Euangelistaru'â— prâ—edicationibus laboribus hoc est in omnibus canonicâ—s sanctorum librorum auctoritatibus Wherefore setting aside all such matters let them shew forth the Church to be theirs if they can not in the speaches and rumors of Africanes not in the councells of their Bishops not in the writings of all maner of discoursers not in deceyueable signes wonders because that euen against those thinges we are prepared and made warye by the worde of our Lorde but in the prescript of the lawe in the predictions of the Prophets in the songes of the Psalmes in the voyces of the sheepeherd him selfe in the preachings and labors of the Euangelistes that is to say in all the canonicall authorities of the holy bookes 3. And againe in the same chapter sic â—stendat non dicat verum est quia ego hoc dico aut quia hoc
of equall auctority with the worde of God but in that they agree with the same in condemning the heresies of Arrius Macedonius Nestorius and Eutiches That proude scoffe of Parliament religion bewraieth the stomake of a Vauntparler not the spirit of a diuine or good subiect Popery was also confirmed by Parliament in Queene Maryes time therefore it was Parliament Religion But where as he would compare the laste rablement of Trent in all pointes with those ancient holy Councels he doth euen as much as if he would goe about to proue an Ape to be a man But I may not omit that in shewing the necessitie of the Popes confirmation of Councels out of Annianus Marcellus Lib. 15. Hee helpeth the matter with falsifying the writer sor he deliuereth his wordes thus auctoritate qua potiâ—res aternâ—e â—â—â—â— Episcopi with the authoritie in which the Bishops of the eternall city are better whereas the word is poâ—iuntur by that authoritie which the Bishops of Rome haue or doe enioy But if we shall beleue Marcellinus an heathen writer Liberius Bishop of Rome was of the same mind in condemnation of Athanasius that the rest of the Bishops were which proceeded against him but that he thought it not reason to subscribe to his condemnation before he had seene and heard him For thus Ammon writeth Hunc per subsâ—riptionem abiicere sede sacerdâ—tali parâ—a sentiens câ—eteris iubente principe Liberius monitus perseucranter renitebatur nec visum hominem nec auditum damnare nefas vltimum sâ—epe exclamans apertè sâ—ilicet recalcitrans imperatoris arbitrio Id enim ille Athanasio scmper infesius liâ—et sâ—iret impletum tamen auctoritate qâ—â—a potiuntur aeternâ—e vrbis Episcopi firmari dâ—siderio nitebatâ—r ardente This man speaking of Athanasius condemned before by a Synode of Bishops Liberius being of the same opinion with the rest warned by the Princes commaundement did stiffly refuse by subscription to cast out of his priestly seate crying out often tymes that it was extreme wickednes to condemne a man being nether heard nor seene so openly kicking against the Emperours pleasure Who although he which being alwayes an enemy to Athanasius knew that it was already fulfilled yet he labored with earnest desire to haue it confirmed by the authoritie which the Bishops of the eternall citie haue There can nothing els be gathered of this but that Constantius knowing Athanasius to be depriued by a councell of Bishops of the East would haue Liberius Bishop of Rome to consent to his condemnation because Athanasius was one of the foure Patriarchs was not to be condeÌ„ned but by the rest of the Patriarches Not that it was then thought that all councels were insufficient except they had the Popes confirmation as Bristow doth dreame But Bristow sayth the Protestants regarde no councells because they suffer Lewys Euans in a naughtye booke to cal the councel of Chalcedon a blasphemous proude sacrilegious Antichristian Councell This Lewys Euans while he was a Papist and did write from Louayne in defence of Papistrye was accompted of you a learned man a sober man a godly man but now that God in great mercye hath opened his eyes to see and acknowledge the light of the Gospell you rayle on him and slaunder him at your pleasure For if you had bene able to iustifie your reproche you woulde haue noted in which of his bookes seeinge he hath written many and in what leafe and lyne he had written so vnreuerently of that Councell Howsoeuer it be he is able to aunswer you him selfe Although if he haue erred in the name or iudgement of that councell it were small reason to charge all the Protestantes in England with one priuate mans error The last is that Councells were S. Augustines motiue because he writeth that euen prouinciall Councells must giue place without all doubt to generall Councells De bapt cont Dâ—n lib. 2. cap. 3. but what writeth Augustine immediatly after Ipsáque plenaria saepe priora posterioribus emendari cum aliquo experimento rerum aperitur quod claâ—sum erat cognoscitur quod latebat sine vllo trpo sacrilegae superbiae sine inflata ceruice arrogantiae sâ—ne vlla contentione liutdae inuidiae cum sancta humilitate cum pace Catholica cum charitate Christiana Who knoweth not sayth Augustine That euen generall Councells are often tymes the former corrected by the later when by any tryall of thinges that is opened which before was shutte and that is knowen which before was hidde without any swellinge of sacrilegious pride without any swellinge stubbernes of arrogance without any contention of spightfull enuye with holye humilitie with Catholike peace with christian charitie What saye you Sainct Augustine haue generall Councells often erred that the former were corrected by the later If you mayntayne this saying you shall be no longer of Bristowes religion The 14. motiue is the 26 demaund The fathers Pelagians aliue in Protestants The fathers S. Augustines motiue Protestants be ashamed of their fathers Of what religion and authoritie the fathers were L. Humfries opinion of Iewells chalenge of the fathers and of the Sainctes in the Calender Bristow woulde haue it considered whether euer any Catholike man in matters of fayth did obstinately refuse to beleue the olde fathers consenting in one and agreeing together but onely such as were heretikes I aunswer Bristow playeth the captious and yet foolishe Sophister For in this first demaunde he seemeth to vnderstand all the olde fathers consenting together but in the rest of the chapter he playnely speaketh but of some of the olde writers nowe there is great difference betwene all and some For we denye nothing that all the olde fathers did consent vpon although we denye some thing that some of the olde fathers did allowe For example we denye prayers for the deade which some of the olde writers did allowe But if Bristow woulde breake his heade in peeces with studye he shall neuer be able to proue that all the olde writers did mayntayne prayer for the deade the like I saye of prayer vnto Sainctes and of some prerogatiue of the Bishop of Rome ouer other Bishops of some ceremonies c which being the dregges of a great quantitie of good liquor contayned in the vessells of diuerse of the olde writers and yet of the later sorte of them the Papistes haue onely sucked out letting all the good liquor to runne beside them And like impudent dogges yolpe barke against vs that the fathers are all of their side and contrarye to vs with as good reason as one that hath gotten the excrementes of a man shoulde boast boast that he hath the same man in possession I thinke the reader can not but laughe when he readeth it so often noted by Bristow Pelagians aliue in Protestantes When of all olde heresies we are further from none nor Papistes nearer to any then to the heresie of the Pelagians But why troe ye are Pelagians aliue
many vnto this day continue in profession of Christianitie beside all the Churches of India AEthiopia which were also planted by the Apostles Thomas and other The more beastly is the blundering of this Bristow who dreameth that the councell of Constantinople the 1. which made this confession by the Apostolike Church did not onely meane the Romane Church but also none other but the Romane Church As though that councell could not distinguish the Catholike Apostolike Church dispersed ouer all â—â—â—â— face of the earth from the particular Apostolike Church of Rome which was but a member therereof when the same councel gaue the like priuiledges of honor to the Church of Constantinople which the Church of Rome had reseruing but the senioritie to y e Church of Rome And being called to a councel at Rome by the Princes letters procured by Damasus Bishop of Rome other Bishops of Italy the West they refused to come as hauing already by the Emperour of the East being gathered to Constantinople â—oncluded what they thought good to be decreed Histor. trip lib. 9 cap. 13. And in their epistle written to their fellow ministers Damasus Ambrose c. gathered in councell at Rome wherein they excused their refusall to come they call the Church of Antiochia seniorem vere apostolicam Ecclesiam the elder truly an Apostolike Church The church of Ierusalem they call the mother of all Churches Ep. Concil Constanti Hist. trip lib. 9. cap. 14. Nether was it euer in their mind to make the particular Church of Rome the only Apostolike Church of the world but onely a principall member consenting with the same The succession of bishops of Rome alledged by Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine Optatus doth nothing in the world defend the popish bishops in their successioÌ„ vnto this day for so much as they succeede not in doctrine as well as in place Nether doe we make any leape from Luther vnto the Apostles but prouing our doctrine to be the doctrine of the Apostles we doubt no more of perpetuall succession thereof then knowing our selues to be descended from Adam we doubt whether we haue had a line all discent of progenitors vnto this time that I may vse Bristowes owne example to declare that numbring of Bishops is no more necessary in the one theÌ„ shewing our pedegrie in the other Seing the question is not how many men in what places were professed this doctrine but whether it be the same which â—â—â—â— Apostles taught but that can not better be proued then by the writings of â—â—â—â— Apostles The places cited by Bristow for succession out of Irenaeus Tertullian Optatus Augustine you shall sinde answered in my confutation of Stapletons fortres part 2. cap. 1. of Sanders rocke cap. 15. where also is answered the place of S. Luke cap. 22. of Christ praying that Peters faith might not faile The 24. motiue â—â— the 45. demaund The Romaines neuer chauÌ„ged their religion S. Bede of our religion the Râ—maine church his motiue ProtestaÌ„ts be of many old heresies The Apostles were of our religion Prayer for the dead vsed alwayes If the Romaines had not chauÌ„ged their religion since their faith was coÌ„mended by the Apostle there should be no controuersie betwene vs them And if Bristow caÌ„ proue by the Apostles writing that he is of their religion or that they were of the Popish religioÌ„ the strife is at an ende How farre Bâ—de was of your religion I haue shewed in the answer to Stapletons fortresse But he vrgeth vs to shew what Pope chaunged their religion what tumults rising in the worlde thereon what Doctors withstoode it what couÌ„cels accuâ—sed c. which he saith they can shew in all innouatioÌ„s both great sinal that euer by heretikes were atteÌ„pted What an impudent lyar is this Bristow to brag of that which at this day is impossible to be don by any maÌ„ liuing in the worlde For of so many heretikes as are rehersed by Epiphanius Augustine not the one halfe of theÌ„ can be so shewed as Bristow like a blind bayard boasteth they can doe But if we say the chaunge was not made al at once we must shew wheÌ„ euery pece was altered as they do of our doctrin of old taught by many old heretiks AErius denying praier for the dead c. Whereof many are slauÌ„ders lyes the rest if we can not defend by Scriptures let them be takeÌ„ for heresies To the purpose we haue often shewed and are ready daily to shew the beginning of many of their heresies errors as of the Popes supremacy in Victor of prayer for the dead in the Montanists of their crossing in the Valentinians of images in the Gnosâ—ikes and Carpocratians and so of a great many other errors which are contrary to the holy Scriptures by which we first reproue them of falshood and as stories serue vs we open their beginnings And wheras Bristow without all shame affirmeth that prayer for the dead was vsed alwayes citeth Irenaeus among other for his auctor he sheweth nothing but impudency matched with his heresie for there is no worde in Ireneus to proue that prayer for the dead was vsed of any godly man of his time Tertullian a Montanist is the first that maketh any mention of prayers for the dead only in such bookes as he wrote when he was an heretike Whereas Augustine sayth Ep. 119. That y e church of God nether appâ—oueth nor keepeth secret nor doth such thinges as be against the faith and good maners it is to be vnderstanded of such things as the church knoweth to be against the faith For of some thinges the church may be ignorant as Augustine confesseth in his retractations lib. 2. cap. 18. Vbicunque in his libris commemoraui ecclesiam non habentem maculam aut rugaâ— non sic accipiendum est quasi iam sit sed quae praeparatur vt sit quando apparebit etiam gloriosa nunc enim propter quasdam ignorantias infirmitates meâ—brorum suâ—rum habet vnde quâ—tidie tota dicat Dimitte nobis dâ—bita nostra Wheresoeuer in those bookes I haue made mention of y e church not hauing spot or wrinckle it is not to be takeÌ„ as though she were so now but which is prepared that â—he may be when she shall appeare also glorious For now because of certaine ignorances and infirmities of her members euen the whole church hath cause to say euerie day forgiue vs our trespasses Notwithstanding the watchmen therefore prophecied by Esay continually geuing warning vpon the walles against the inuasion of open enemies and blasphemous heretikes yet many hypocrites haue crept into the church secretly and vnder shew of pietie haue shewed many errors and superstitions while the mysterie of miquity wroughâ— the full manifestation and Apostasie of Antichrist In the demaunde Bristow denyeth that any Pope did erre although I haue shewed both out of stories S. Hierom the Pope Damasus and the generall
Rome to approue her doctrine by auctority of Gods word Which because the Papists dare not atteÌ„pt Bristow requireth I can not tel what approbation priuiledge of the sayd libell to shew a bad shift better then none at all why they wil not answere it For Popish libells that are but cast abroad in writing we require no approbation nor priuiledge dare not the Papists confute a printed libell before it haue approbation priuiledge The 29. motiue Protestantes them selues take thinges vpon our churches credit The churches auctority S. Augustines motiue VVhat Sor. pture the Protestants deny Although we did receaue such things as he reherseth vpon their churches credit it followeth not that theirs is the true church for we receaue nothing from them without dew exammation The Scriptures we receaue not vpon the only credit of the Popish church but vpon the credit of y e vniuersall church of Christ. The creedes articles of doctrine tearmes of person trinitie consubstantiality Sacraments c. we receaue because they be consonant to the Scriptures not because the church of Rome tellâ—th â—s they be true As for the auctoritie of the church which he sayth was S. Augustines motiue to beleue the Gospell was not a single or sole motiue but a commotiue or an argument that with other argumeÌ„ts did moue him for the sayth not moueret but commoueret and so it is with vs. Prouided alwayes that the Popish church be no taken for that Catholike or vniuersall church VVhat then sayth Bristow was it the Protestants church whereof Augustine ment or can you hold laughter when the question is asked No verily for when the Protestants church that it is now so called in this age like as it was called the Homousians church in Augustines time is a member of the Catholike vniuersall church of Christ and so proued by the holy Scriptures it is a ridiculous thing to doubt whether it were the popish church which is but an hereticall assembly departed from the vniuersall church long since Augustines departure out of this life But Bristow will proue that the church at whose commanndement Augustine beleued the Gospell was not the ProtestaÌ„ts church because that church commaunded him to beleue the bookes of Toby Iudith VVisdome Ecclesiasticus the Machabees to be canonicallscripture which the church of Protestantes doth denye But what it Augustine were deceiued to thinke he hearde the voice of the Catholike church when he did not shall the Protestantes churche be condemned S. Hierome who if the church of Rome were the Catholike church was more like to heare her voice because he was a Priest of the church of Rome telleth vs a cleane contrary tale For thus he writeth In praefat in Prouerbia Sicut ergo Iudith Tobiae Machabaeorum libros legit quidem ecclesia sed eos inter Canonicas scripturas non recipit sic haec duo volumina leg at ad aedificationem plebis non ad auctoritatem ecclesiasticorum dogmatum confirmandam Therfore as the Church in deade readeth the bookes of Iudith and Tobias and of the Macchabees but yet she receiueth them not among the Canonicall scriptures so she may reade these two Bookes speaking of the booke of Wisedome and Ecclesiasticus for the edifying of the common people but not for confirming the authoritie of Ecclesiasticall doctrine Doth the Church of Protestants iudge otherwise of these Bookes then that Church which thus instructed Hierome What then I must say as Bristowe doth S. Hierome and the Catholike Church in his time of our Religion The Church of Rome now is of an other iudgement then the Church of Rome was then ergo it is not now that it was then But whereas Bristowe chargeth vs to to deny or at least to leaue indifferent the Canticles of Salomon The Epistle to the Hebrues The Epistles of Saint Iames S Peter S. Iohn Sainct Iude with the Apocalips it is a diuelish slaunder as God knoweth and the woâ—ld can beare vs witnesse The 30. Motiue is the 36. and 37. demaÅd Storehouse of the Scriptures Tht Iewes Religion chaunged into ours by Christ. The Churches learning and wisdome The Church store S. Irenaeus motiue Bristowe demaundeth whether the Popish Church receiuing the Scriptures of the olde and newe Testament from Christ hath not kept them faithfully without adding minishing or corrupting I aunswere no for the Popish church receiueth none of Christ but the catholike church of Christ. Againe the popish Church hath added whole bokes to the canon which the chuch of the Iewes neuer receiued nor the vniuersall Church of Christ. But those Bokes saith Bristow hath the Protestants church robbed vs of w c are allowed by approued Councels You heard in the last motiue Hieromes iudgement of those bookes whervnto agreeth the couÌ„cel of Laodiâ—ea cap. 59. Augustine receiueth the boks of Macchabees but with condition of sobrietie in the reader or hearer Augâ— consec â—pist Gaudent cap. 13. Last of al the popish church either of fraud or negligence hath corrupted an exceeding great number of textes of the scripture in her vulgar latine translation w c she receueth as only authentical The very first promise of the gospel is corrupted and falsyfied For wheras the trueth is Ipsum contret caput â—â—â—â— the same seede shall broose thine head the popish translation hath Ipsa the same woman Gen 3. Wheras he saith the Protestants church for this 100. yeeres as we coÌ„fesse our selues occupyed no bible nor had any thing to do with the scriptures he lieth out of al measure for the church of Christ hath alwaies had the scriptures in euery nation where it was it had theÌ„ in their mother toung How many Bibles are yet extant written in parchmeÌ„t 3 or 4. hundreth yeeres past in the English toung beside other in the Saxon language The like are to be proued to haue ben in al places where the Churches were gathered as in France Italy Bohemia c. Finally whatsoeuer he bableth of their Church to be the store house of the Scriptures trueth the like may be said of the greke Church which they coÌ„demne as schismaticall hereticall therefore this storehouse is no Motiue to proue the Romish Sinagogue to be the church of God In the 37. demaund he asketh whether as wel Protestants as other doe not condemne the old writers errors other heresies of Heretiks which made great shew of scriptures by the rule of y e popish churchs faith I answere the Protestants out of the scriptures do can disproue such shew of scriptures made by maisters of error are no more moued by the popish churches authoritie then the Apostles were moued by authoritie of the Iewish Synagogue to reproue all the grosse Idolatrie and snperstition of the Gentiles Therfore the popish Church is not Depositorium Diues that rich storehouse of trueth which was S. Ireneus motiue The 31. motiue is the 41. demaund Sending and teaching of all diuine
particularly to euerie one of them sheweing whether it be a true and proper note of the church and if it be that it belongeth to vs and not to them Although Bristow say that this way we know full well that they shall haue the victorie flying therefore euermore to our weake false castle of only Scripture That the scripture onely is our castle we do gladly admitte but that the same is a most strong true impugnable castle none but a blasphemous heretike will deny But you must saith Bristow still labour to get them if you can with their consent out of the castle into the plaine fieldes aforesayde to make them graunt expressely that there in your handes they can not stande Nay Bristow you must beate vs from our castell if you can for we will neuer consent to goe out of it for defense except it be to offer you the aduauntage not in the playne fieldes as you cal it but among your pettie piles and small holdes And so we haue done often So did that reuerende father the Bishoppe of Salisburie in that noble challenge wherein you were shamefullie foyled in your owne grounde and many of your fortes beaten about your eares But you doe not well to teach your schollers to seeke a gentle aduersarie to fight withall which must first of all be willing to laye downe his sworde and shielde and then you are good enough for him with your manlie motiues with which when you haue treandled him about like a tenis ball you sende him backe agayne to his castell of onely Scripture to see whether they will beare him out in his opinions For example is not this Scripture manifest inough on your side and agaynst vs This is my body This is my blood Mat. 26. Verily euen as plaine as this They did all eate the same spirituall meate They all dronke of the rocke that followed theÌ„ y e rocke was Christ. 1. Cor. 10. They are both one maner of speaking and both of one matter Therefore they haue both one meaning The second exaÌ„ple is By works a man is iustified not by faith only Iac. 2. And this is also Scripture knowing that a man is not iustified by the workes of the Lawe but by faith of Iesus Christ Gâ—lat 2. And agayne by grace you are saued through faith and that not of your selues it is the gift of God not of workes least any man shoulde boast The later being in maner of speaking contrarie to the former text doe playnly shewe that these two Apostles speake not both of one kinde of faith or iustification But that Iames speaketh of a dead faith as his wordes are playne Vers. 17. and of iustification before men Paule of a liuing faith and of iustification in the sight of God The third example is out of Iames 5. Where I must first note that Bristow in translation doth manifestly corrupt falsefie the Scripture The Latine is Infirmatur quis in vobis If any amongest you be daungerously sicke let him send for the Priests of the church and they to pray ouer him anealing him with oyle in the name of our Lord c. First Bristow addeth this word daungerously of his owne heade which is neither in the Greeke nor vulgare Latine text to draw the text of Iames violently to their popish greasing which they vse only when a man is desperatly sicke and past hope of recouerie in theiâ— iudgement Whereas Iames speaketh generally of any kinde of sickenes wherewith any of the faithfull were molested Secondly Bristowe leaueth out the wordes following which are these and the prayer of faith shall saue the sicke person and the Lord shall restore him or raise him vp the Latine is alleâ—iabit shall ease him which wordes declare that the Apostle speaketh not of a perpeâ—uall Sacrament of the church but of a ceremonie vsed by them that had a speciall gift of healing the sicke in the primitiue Churche whiche ceremonie must needes cease with the gift except it be among apes that practise outward gesture and actions without effect The other two examples out of the 2. of Machabees the one of praying for the deade the other of Ieremie praying for the people are no partes of the castell of Canonicall Scripture and therefore with other errours in the same bookes I omit them The last exaÌ„ple is out of Genesis 48. The saying of Iacob the Patriarke of Iosephs two childreÌ„ God who hath fed me from my youth euen to this day The Angell who hath deliuered me out of all aduersities blesse these children which is sayth Bristow as if one would say God and our Ladie blesse them Nay rather God by Iesus Christ blesse them for what other Angell but Christ the Angell of the great councell was the deliuerer of Iacob which when he wrestled with him in a vision and mystery Gen. 32. he doubted not to call God Euen the same Angell which led the children of Israel through the wildernes whoÌ„ S. Paul 1. Cor. 10. calleth Christ who was not an Angel by nature but by office in that as the Mediator he was sent to deliuer the people before he came in the flesh But if we should vnderstand the Angell of whom Iacob speaketh for soÌ„e priuate Angel appointed of God to protect him yet is it not as if one would say now God our Lady blesse theÌ„ For that God vseth the ministery of Angels to defend prosper his seruaunts but not the ministery of Saincts in heaueÌ„ for any such purpose that we can learne by the holy Scriptures Iacob might therfore pray y t God would send his Angell to protect those children euen as he had done for him As for that vaine brag that all Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the end of the Apocalipse is for theÌ„ against vs is nothing els but a false alarme as though he woulde on all sides assalt our castel of only Scriptures wheras he purposeth nothing lesse But this can not be borne that he sayeth some places of Scripture be so playne against vs that we can not aunswere them but by plucking the pen of the holy Ghost out of his hand that wrote theÌ„ meaning that we deny the auctority of such books as be not Canonicall the Machabees especially But this he sayth can not be For either they are proued muâ—ncibly to be of the holy Ghostes indighting or no Scripture at all is proued to be suche as you may remember the common saying of S. Augustine Ego Euangelio non crederem c. I shoulde not beleue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse the Catholike Churches auctoritie did compell What shall I say to this impudent blasphemer that alloweth none other tryall of holy Scripture but the authoritie of the Church because Augustine supposing that hee were an Heathen Againe sayth he would not beleeue the Gospell except the authoritie of the Church with other thinges did moue him his woorde is Commoueret whiche Bristowe not so ignorauntly as
your selues to shadowe your heresies cannot proue you to be Christians or your church to be Catholike especially seeing you lacke the truth which Augustine in the same place confesseth to be more worth then either successioÌ„ antiquity the name of Catholike or any other thing else The eyghteenth marke is the succession of Priestes and Bishops euen from the seate of Peter vnto Pius the fifth in whose time this booke of M. Sander was written which marke is approued by Augustine by Irenaeus by Tertullian by Optatus by Hieronym as he sayth being one of the most euident of all other but therein he belyeth all these fathers whom he citeth who neuer alleaged the bare successioÌ„ of place persons but ioyned with the coÌ„tinuance of doctrine receaued from the Apostles against new late sprong vp heresies Augustine shall speake for the rest who after he hath alleaged vnto the Donatistes the successions of Bishops from Peter in the vnity of the Catholike church among which was neuer a Donatist the iudgement of the Bishop of Rome in absoluing of Cecilianus and many such like reasons whereunto he thinketh the Donatistes shoulde yeelde yet in the ende he addeth these words Quamquà m nos non tam de istis documentis presumamus quam de Scripturis sanctis Although we doe not so much presume of this documents as of the holy Scriptures These eighteene markes M. Sander will haue to be more richly seene in them then in the Protestantes but what markes they are and how they are to be found in their church I haue briefely shewed But nowe he commeth to a general challenge to proue that we haue nothing which they lacke and we lacke many thinges which they haue First they haue a iustifying faith as well as we but not iustifying alone but with charity which is the life of faith But charitye is a fruict of a liuinge and vnfayned fayth not the life thereof 1. Tim. 1. 5. the effect not the cause and we holde with Saynct Paule that a man is iustified by faith without the workes of the lawe Rom. 3. for charitie is no instrument to apprehend the mercie of God but faith onely therefore faith onely doth iustifie We are iustified gratis steely by his grace Rom. 3. 24. therfore nothing can come in accompt of iustification before God but onely faith which seeing y e Papistes haue not they haue not a iustifying faith We haue two Sacraments and they haue seuen but seeing they haue fiue more then Christ instituted and haue peruerted the one and polluted the other they haue but one Sacrament at the most and that horribly prophaned I meane baptisme VVe haue an inward priesthood he sayth to offer vp Christ in our hartes and they offer him both in hartes and handes But our spirituall priesthood is not to offer vp Christ but spirituall sacrifices acceptable by Christ 1. Pet. 2. 5. Heb. 13. 15. and they are horrible blasphemers that take vpon them to offer vp Christ whome none could offer but him selfe by his eternall spirite Heb. 9. 14. He sayth that the Papistes beleeue as well as we that Christ by one sacrifice payed our raunsom for euer when they shewe it to the eye in the eblation of their Masse then the which nothing can be more contrary to the onely sacrifice of Christ once offred and neuer to be repeated because he founde eternall redemption thereby Heb. 10. 14. 9. 12. 25. c. He addeth that they beleue Christ to be the head of the Church and shewe it by a reall figure of one heade in earth meaning the Pope whome now he maketh a figuratiue heade as though Christ were not present with his Churche or that his Churche were a monster with two heades As laye men receyue the communion in both kindes with vs so they dâ—e with them in Austria by the Popes dispensation as though Christes commaundement and institution were not sufficient without the Popes dispensation Wherein also he affirmeth a monstrous absurditie that the Sacrament was not instituted in two kindes to be so receyued but by an vnbloody sacrifice to shewe the nature of his bloody sacrifice in which his soule and blood was separated from his body and flesh and yet he sayth the body and flesh of Christ is not well conteyned in the cuppe as his blood in the paten with the body and forme of breade and no separation of the one from the other and no more contayned or distributed by both then by one alone Which saying is to be receyued with whoopes and hisses of all men that haue their fiue witts They haue mariage he sayth in greater price then we because they teach it to be a sacrament but we find it not instituted by Christ to be a sacrament of the new testament therfore we receyue it as an holy ordinance contayning also a great mystery but yet no sacrament But if it be an holy sacrament why doe you thinke it vnmeete for ministers of the Church and why doth your Pope Syricius or rather some counterfeating Canonist in his name call holy matrimony a liuing in the flesh such as can not please God But although mariage be honorable in all men you saye it is not so in them that haue gelded them selues for the kingdome of heauen who haue no more possibilitie to marye then a gelded man to â—eget children You were best then to tel the Apostle that his saying was too generall for he shoulde haue excepted them that so gelded themselues But S. Paule sayth notwithstanding your impossibilitie if a virgine doe marye she doth not sinne 1. Cor. 8. 28. You will reply he speaketh of them that haue not vowed how proue you that Christ speaketh of them that haue vowed longer then God would giue them grace to liue chast which he affirmeth to be a peculiar gift not in the power of euery man Mat. 19. 12. But what if your popish geldings by neying at euery mans wife and by tombling in all beddes where they are not kept out by force proue them selues to be stone horses are they still in the number of those that hauing gelded them selues for the kingdom of heauen may not possibly marye and yet nether we will nor can possibly liue chast But omitting these thinges which they haue as well as we now he commeth to those thinges which we lacke and yet many of them are very necessary as insufflations that is blowing vpon exorcismes that is coniuring holy oyle in baptisme chrisme in Bishopping externall priesthood sacrifice altars censing lights and so forth a large rablement of popish errors and superstitious ceremonies And that we saye falsly in saying these are naught he proueth by S. Paules saying to the Galathians praeterquam quod accepistis beside that you haue receyued for once sayth he we haue receyued those thinges of our auncestors as if S. Paule had not spoken of the Gospell but of beggerly ceremonies which because they are an other Gospell and way
Apostles had I aunswer the kinges supremacie is perfectly distinct from any power the Apostles had For although he haue authoritie ouer Ecclesiasticall persons and in causes Ecclesiasticall according to Gods word yet is he no Ecclesiasticall officer but a ciuill Magistrate hauing chiefe authoritie in all causes not absolute to doe what he will but onely what God commaundeth him namely to prouide by lawes that God may be truely worshipped and all offences against his religion may be punished And whereas M. Sander inferreth that an Ethnike Prince or Turke may be supreame heade of our Church we vtterly denye to any such the name of an head which can not be a member but euen an Ethnicke Prince or a Turke may be chiefe Magistrate ouer the faithfull and make lawes for the mayntenance of Christian religion as an hypocrite Christian may They are also to be obeyed in all things that are not contrary to God Nabuchadnezer Darius Cyrus Artaxerxes which were heathen Princes made godly lawes for the true worship of God furtherance of his people as in the prophecie of Daniel the bookes of Ezra and Nehemiah it is manifest S Paule appealed to Nero the Emperor Eusebius testifieth lib. 7. cap. 24 that the Christians in a matter of a Bishopps election and for a Bishops house were directed by the decree of Aurelianus an heathen Emperour And this notwithstanding the Church is alwayes vnder the soueraigne authoritie of Christ and the spirituall gouernment of her seuerall pastors and teachers when Christ ascending into heauen ordayned for her edification and vnitie and not one Pope ouer all Eph. 4. 13. But now he will enter one degree farther and suppose that a king may be as good as it is possible for any mortall man to be or as any Bishop and Priest is yet he can nether baptize consecrate forgiue sinnes praise excommunicate blesse nor be Iudge of doctrine by his kingly authoritie If he can doe none of those he can not be supreame gouernour in all Ecclesiasticall causes I denye this argument For his supremacie is not to doe those thinges or any of them but to prouide and commaund that they may be doon as they ought to be But he riseth vp againe and sayth that whosoeuer hath soueraigne authoritie either in ciuill matters or Ecclesiasticall he may in his owne person execute any of those thinges which any of his inferiours may do So he saith the king if he wil may be Iudge in VVestminster hall shrieue and constable yea he may play the tayler maister Carpenter or tanner It is maruell he sayth not that he may be both a king and subiect Likewise the primate he might as wel say the Pope may helpe a Priest to Masse cary the crosse in procession digge a graue c. I deny this rule to hold in all thinges For there are some thinges that the Prince may not doe for lacke of knowledge and some thinges for lacke of calling and yet he may commaund both to be done For controuersies of lawe he may not decyde except he haue knowledge of the law nor minister Phisick except he haue knowledge in phisicke yet he may command both Lawyers Phisitions to doe according to their knowledge likewise to preache baptize c. he may not because he lacketh calling for none may doe those thinges lawfully but he that hath a speciall calling but he may commaund those thinges to be done to be well done according to Gods lawe whereof he ought not to be ignorant and for that purpose is especially commaunded to study in the booke of Gods lawe that not onely in matters concerning his owne person but in matters concerning Gods honor he may cause all men to doe their duetie Deut. 17. 18. So did Dauid Salomon Iehosaphat Ezechias Iosias commaund the Priestes to offer vp the sacrifices and to doe their duetie which it was not lawfull for their kinges to execute And is it so straunge a matter that a popish king may not commaund his Chaplayne to saye Masse or to saye his Masse reuerently and orderly as the lawes of popery doe require if he may commaund ouer tho e matters which yet he may not doe him selfe let M. Sander see how his rule holdeth that whosoeuer hath authoritie in any matters may doe all thinges him selfe which any of his inferiours may doe or which he may commaund to be done whereupon he concludeth that the king hath no right or supreame power at all in Ecclesiasticall causes vnlesse it be committed to him from the Bishop so that a king if he be a Bishops commissary may doe that by M. Sanders exception w c nether by commaundement of God nor his kingly power he hath auctoritie to doe Another argument he bringeth as good as this that the lesser authoritie doth not comprehend the greater and therefore M Horne must aunswer him whether to preache baptize forgiue sinnes c. be greater or lesser ministerie then the kinges authoritie If it be greater then it can not be comprehended in the kinges authoritie which is lesser What that reuerend father the Bishop of Winchester hath aunswered it may be seene in his booke against M. Feckenham But to talke with you M. Sander what if I graunt that the Ecclesiasticall ministery is not comprehended in the kinges authoritie will you thereupon inferre that the kinges authoritie is not to commaund the ministers of the Church in these matters to doe their dueties according to the worde of God In deede you conclude so but your argument is naught For the king is Gods Lieuetenant to see both the Church and the common wealth to be wel ordered And the same thing may be greater and lesser then another in diuers respectes As in authoritie of commaunding the king is greater then the Phisition in knowledge practise of phisicke the king is lesse then the Phisition So in authority of coÌ„maunding the prince is greater then the minister but in authoritie of ministration he is lesse and no inconuenience in the world to the dignitie of other estate or calling The Bishop of Winchesters examples M. Sander saith are euil applyed For they only shew what was done and not what ought to haue bene done and so for many circumstaÌ„ces are subiect to much wrangling 1. For either he was no good Prince which medled with disposing of holy matters 2. or in that deede he was not good 3. or he did it by coÌ„mission from a Prophet or an high Priest 4. or he was deceiued by flatterers 5. or he was inforced by necessitie But all these quarells notwithstanding the examples of Scripture are so many and so playne that M. Sanders â—â—angling can not obscure them Dauid a good Prince did well in appoynting the Leuits and Priestes to their seuerall offices and forbidding the Leuits to cary the arke and the vessells thereof without any coÌ„mission from Priest or Prophet but onely by the word of God not deceyued by flatterers nor enforced by necessitie 1. Chron. 23.
tyme as many thousands aliue could disproue him for any affection to that heresie whereto the baptisme of Constantine pertayned nothinge in the worlde As for the stones and pillers of marble in which any such matter is grauen bearing the name of his baptistry except Maister Sander could proue that they were sette vppe in his tyme are simple witnesses against the historye of Eusebius which lyued in his tyme. Nether the forged pontificall of Damasus nor the writings of Beda Ado Marianus Gregorius TureneÌ„sis Zonarus Nicephorus late writers following the fable of the Romish Church are of any credit in respect of Eusebius and the eldest writers of the Ecclesiasticall story that agree with Eusebius that he was not baptised many yeares after Syluester was deade And concerning the donation of Constantine it is too absurd for any wise man to defend which hath bene so long before disproued by Laurentius Valla no enemy of the Romish religion although a discouerer of that fable Agayne his forsaking of the citie of Rome and building of Constantinople is as great a fable for although he bewtified Byzantium and made it an imperiall citye as placed conueniently to keepe the Orientall Empire yet he forsooke not Rome but still retayned it as the chiefe see of his Empire so did the Emperours that followed him vntill after it was wasted by the barbarous nations they made lesse accompt of it And therefore although Constans the Nephew of Heraclius could not conueniently remoue thether yet he remoued froÌ„ thence what he thought good by which it appeared he had authoritie in the citie by the prouidence of God and not by chaunce as M. Sander dreameth that he was prohibited by Gods prouidence in respect of the Popes supremacie or els the world should be gouerned by chaunce But leauing Constantinus the father we must come to Constantius his sonne which was an Arrian of whom Athanasius complayneth that he had no reuerence of the Bishop of Rome Ep. ad Solit. vit agen nether considering that it was an Apostolike see nor that Rome was the mother citie of the Romane Empire There were other Apostolikes sees beside Rome and the Christian worlde was larger then the Romane Empire therefore this maketh nothing for the singular prerogatiue of that see But the noble Emperours Gratianus Valentinianus Theodosius made a law lege 1. Cod. de summ trinit That all their people should continue in that religion as the religion which is vsed from S. Peter vnto this day doth declare him to haue deliuered to the Romanes and which it is euident that Bishop Damasus doth follow and Peter Bishop of Alexandria a man of Apostolike holines This law proueth that the Emperours had authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes And that they ioyned the Patriarch of Rome with the Patriarch of Alexandria not because he of Alexandria agreed with him of Rome but because they both agreed with Peter and Peter with Christ. From these Emperours he commeth to Bonifacius who writing to the Emperour Honorius and humbly desiring his ayde to appease the tumults of his Church vseth these wordes Ecclesiae meae cui Deus noster meum sacerdotiuÌ„ vobisres humanas regentibus deputauit cura constringit ne causis eius quamuis adhuc corporis incommoditate detinear propter conuâ—ntus qui à sacerdotibus vniuersis clâ—ricis Christianae plebis perturbationibus agitantur apud aures Christianissimi principis desim The care of my church to which our God hath deputed my priesthood while you gouerne the affayres of men doth bind me that although I am yet withholden by infirmitie of bodye I should not be wanting to the causes thereof in the hearing of a most Christian Prince by reason of the meetings that are held of all the Priestes and the Clergie with the perturbations of the Christian people These words shewe that the Emperour was supreame gouernour in causes Ecclefiastiâ—â—ll for he writeth concerning the election of the Bishop To whom the Emperour answereth making a lawe against the ambitious labouring for succession that if two Bishops should be chosen they should be both banished out of the citie Con. To. 1. dist 97. I haue set downe the wordes at large to shewe the shamefull salsification of M. Sander who setteth them downe absolutely thus Mihi Deus noster mewn sacerdotium vobis res humanas regeÌ„tibus deputauit Our God hath appoynted my priesthood to me whereas you doe gouerne worldly matters As though he had denied to the Emperour all gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes wheÌ„ he flyeth to his authoritie in a cause Ecclesiasticall and doth not onely acknowledge him to be a conseruer of ciuill peace as M. Sander would haue it To Honorius he ioyneth Galla Placidia the Emperesse in her epistle to Theodosius set before the councell of Chalcedon Assirming that Peter ordayned the primacy of the Bishoply office in the see Apostolike Thus wrote the Emperesse or her Secretary and so it was taken in that time The like sayth Valentinianus in his Epistle to Theodosius his father that antiquitie gaue the chiefâ—y of priestly power to the Bishop of the citie of Rome And Martianus with Valentinian confesse that the Synode of Chalcedon inquired of the faith by the authoritie of Leo Bishop of the euerlasting citie of Rome Adde hereunto that the councell it selfe confesseth Act. â— that Leo was ouer them as the head ouer the members All these proue in deede a primacy of the Bishop of Rome acknowledged in those dayes but not such a primacye as is now claymed For the same councell and Emperours decreed that the see of Constantinople in the East should haue the same authoritie that the see of Rome had in the West the title of senioritie onely reserued to the Bishop of Rome Although the Bishop of Rome Leo by letters and his legats in the councell cryed out against it as lowd as they could Cont. Chal act 16. namely Lucentius cryed Sedes Apostolica c The Apostolike sea ought not to be abased in our presence c. but all the synode and the Iudges continued in their decree The saying of Iustinian in cod de summ trinit is examined and aunswered in the 69. article of M. Sanders treatise which is the true Church before his booke of Images as also the sayings of the Bishop of Patara of Eugenius Bishop of Carthage and Gregory Bishop of Rome The report of the councell of Sinuessa is too full of corruption and confusion to be credited for authenticall authoritie And yet it is playne that Marcellinus the Bishop of Rome was conuicted by witnesses to haue committed Idolatry before he confessed the sinne and receiued sentence of condemnation and accursing of the Synode howsoeuer that patche is thrust in after the Actes of the councell prima sedes c. the first see is not iudged of any which in euery counterfait decretall epistle almost must haue a place To proue that Phocas did not first make the see of Rome heade of