of men set up before 6. Our Christ is by his Word and spirit and the riches of his Grace in the hearts of his people by faith quickening and inlivening them which these perverters deny and jeer at and say Their Christ in all the reality of his Body with his Flesh and Blood is wholly within them for so some of them have said even sensibly bearing their sins in them though not willingly as Christ bare ours on the Tree but desiring to be free and so is rising in them and reigning in Glory So as the Redemption and Resurrection of the Body others wait for these say they have in this body within a pleasing fancy 7. Our Christ will come again personally in his own Glorious Body and every eye shall see him in which coming he will not by degrees or one after another but at once together in one moment in the twinkling of an eye change the surviving and raise the dead bodies of all that sleep in Jesus so as they shall be all mortal and meet him in the air and appear in Glory with him freed from all Hunger Persecution Sorrow and death for ever and blessed in the enjoyment of him with whom they shall reign for evermore and when he is set on his Throne he will gather all Nations before him raising all men not leaving out these Deceivers but all shall appear before his Judgement Seat even those that rebel against him and in this day deny him then shall they acknowledge him Lord and his People that have now confest him the beloved of the Lord when themselves shall be judged by him and sent into the Lake of Fire c. all which coming of his and the Resurrection of the dead and judgement after death the bodily death is by those Perverters also altogether denyed they owning no other coming of Christ then some of them enjoy now nor other Resurrection then is now sometime of one and sometime of another and yet they of them that enjoy the Resurrection of the body they talk of sometime bunger and feel pain and cry out of Persecution and must die the bodily yea and rise again to the second death too 8. Our Christ hath by his spirit so fully discovered himself in the Testimony of the Gospel that is the written verity that in and according to the plain import of the saying thereof he is to be known so far as we may know him till his coming again and by and wit that the Holy Spirit doth witnesse of him to and teach the hearts of the believers and they from the same spirit and according to the same Gospel do conside in him confesse him and hold him sorth to others and for that are opposed by these perverters Of whose Christ and their Doctrine of him though whatever is said of the true Christ or of his Church in the Scripture they apply to their false Christ and to themselves as if they meant no other Christ nor faith then the Scriptures speak of perverting them to that end Yet the scripture writing indeed speaketh not but to the condemnation overthrow and confusion thereof warning all believers not to hear or follow them nor receive them to house nor bid them God-speed But hold them accursed beware them and avoid them as Wolves false Apostles and Reprobate concerning the Faith Such the Doctrine and Principles which these men call the truth which indeed is errour and darknesse let the Scriptures be compared 2. For the manner of their managing and maintaining their doctrine let these particulars amongst divers others be noted 1. They come in their own name or authority boasting of themselves and witnessing to and of themselves and so obtruding things upon men not by and in the light and evidence of the spirit in and according to the Scriptures as the true Apostles use to do but upon their own authority and the authority of their sayings and witnessings which therefore they say also are of equal authority with c. Better than the saying of the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures as appeares by George Whiteheads answers to the Cambridge Queries To this purpose is their saying in their Title Page that what they have written and made manifest in their Book is they say by the Truth they say not which is in Christ or in the Gospel of Christ but which is in George Whitehead John Whitehead George Fox the younger to which three witnesses in their own names We oppose the three in Heaven the Father the Son or Word and the Holy Ghost and the truth that is in and is witnessed by them much of this their way of self-witnessing and obtruding things in their own name word or authority the Reader may see in their Book p. 8. 13. 18. 20 21 22 23. 26. In which they are such as the false Christs and the false Prophets of whom our Lord said to the Jews if another come in his own name him ye will receive John 5. 43. And like the Idol worshippers and preachers of whom the Lord says by the Prophet Isaiah that they were their own witnesses Isa 44. 9. And though they say the Lord saith yet they do therein as the false prophets affirming the Name of the Lord to their own words dreames fancies or deceits as in Jer. 23. 16. 25 26 27. Ezek. 13. 7. As we might also instance in some they have said of that they were Priests and Hirelings and took Tythes that were never exercised in such away as a certain woman said of Thomas Moor junior at Glentworth in Lincoln-shire and George Fox said in Bury Goal of one Disbrough brother in law to Joseph Hagger being a trads-man in London yet they pretended that they speak by the Revelation of the spirit of them in which their imposture and deceit was made manifest 2. When they do quote Scripture they usually pervert and corrupt it altering leaving out something or adding thereto corrupt and false glosses we may instance some few particulars in their book against us As 1. Alleadged 1 John 5 10. He that believeth hath the witnesse in himself bâ—ing out on the Son of God without which it is not true for the Devils believe yet have not the witnesse spoken of in 1 John 5. in themselves Jam. 2. 19. 2. They alleadge 1 John 4. 17. as he is so are we in this World to prove that they are without sin here as well or much as Christ is though its evident that contradicts the Apostle himself who says 1 John 1. 8. If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves touching which quotation because they make some specious use of it to deceive the simple We shall note some things here further about it for the help of the weak let the Reader mind then that 1. He saith not as he was besore the World was so are we in this World for so he was glorified with the Fathers own self equal to God and in his forme the same with
A Fuller Discovery OF THE Dangerous Principles And lying spirit of the People called Quakers made manifest in George Whitehead John Whitehead and George Fox the younger In their Book against Iohn Horne and Thomas Moore of Lin Regis in NORTHFOLK Written by the said Thomas Moore and Iohn Horne for the fuller satisfaction of all such as desire to be further satisfied about the evil and erroniousnesse of the said People called Quakers Most men will proclame every man his own goodnesse but a faithful man to Christ and his Cause who can find Prov. 20. 6. I marvel yee are so soon removed from him that called you not into your selves but into the grace of Christ unto another Gospel which is not another but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of Christ But though we even Apostles or an Angel from heaven persons of most Angel-like carriage and appearance preach any other Gospel unto you as the following Discourse shews that these Quakers do then that which we the Apostles have preached unto you let him be accursed Gal. 1. 6 7 8. LONDON Printed for John Allein at the signe of the Rising Sun in Pauls Church-yard 1660. THE EPISTLE TO THE READER ONce more we have herein presented thee Courteous Reader with a discovery of the People called Quakers in which thou mayest see from their own written and printed sayings by what manner of spirit they be led and what manner of Doctrine they publish and strive to maintain and indeed the naughtinesse of their way is made manifest partly by their Principles and Doctrines broachedly them and partly by the manner of their carriage in their managing and maintaining them Wee shall give thee here a brief account of both in a few Observations 1 For the Doctrines and Principles maintained by them thou mayest observe in their Queries sent us printed with our Answers to them at the close of our Answer to their Book against us as hintâ—d and in their book more clearly asserted or implyed these following viz. I. That Christ hath no other body but his Church no personal body and so that that body of his flesh in which he suffered and bare our sins and which rose again is not a body or is not in being Book pag. 7 8 9. answered by us in our Reply pag. 25. to pa. 42. and Quest 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 11. II. That the blood of Jesus Christ or his personal abasement sufferings in the flesh to the shedding and pouring out his blood and soul to Death sustained by him once in the end or last Ages of the World are not the foundation or of the foundation of their faith so that their faith is not faith in Christs blood as so considered nor is that precious blood or those sufferings of Christ that wherewith their conscience is purged or the spiritual drink of the soul but some other thing principle or spirit in men which they put the Name of the blood of Christ upon See if this conceit or Doctrine in both parts of it negative and affirmative be not hinted in their Quest 12 13 14. seeing the body of his flesh in which he suffered they deny to remain and yet say his blood is in his flesh what can they mean by his flesh but something of his Church which onely they grant to be his body and so that his blood is nothing but some seed principle or sufferings in his Church their pleading against his blood or suffering as the foundation or of the foundation of Faith thou mayst see in their book p. 14 15 16 17. answered by us here p. 52 53 54 c. III. That the lower parts of the earth into which Christ descended and the heavens into which he again ascended are no local places but some conditions or conceits in men Qu. 3 4 5 6â— Book p. 8 9. answered by us p. 26 27 33. IV. That the same body that dies shall not rise again in the Resurrection Book p. 10 11. Answered by us p. 42 to 46. and Quest 16 17. V. That the souls of the wicked shall not come out Hell at the great day of the Resurrection and judgement to be further judged they imply Quest 18. and so that neither the souls nor the bodies of the wicked shall rise again to judgement VI. That that coming of Christ in which the dead in him shall be raised and be caught up into the Ayr together to meet him and be ever with him and in which he shall descend from heaven with a short and the sound of the trumpet c. mentioned 1 Thess 4. 15 16. is already long since past For they say the Apostles and Believers of that Age in which the Apostle wrote remained to it Book p. â— Answered p. 32. Quest 15. and so they agree with Hymeneus and Philetus that said the Resurrection is already past 2 Tim. 16. to 18. VII That the Christ we look for to come from heaven again they desire not the knowledge of Book p. 10. Answered p. 41. VIII That they are sinless or have no sin in them they deny not and that those that are believers in Christ and born of God are perfectly freed from sin as to the being of it in them Book p. 1 to 6. and yet that the little children that John wrote to who were also born of God and know the Father might have sin in them Ans p. 9 10. to p. 24. IX That all sin is guide when as the scripture distinguishes guile from other sins and other sins from guile 1 Pet. 2. â— and sayes some have no guile in their spirits who yet have sins though forgiven and covered yet there to be covered Psalm 32. 1. 2. Book p. 4. 5. Answ p. 17 18. X. That Adam might have died the natural death if he had not sinned and so that the bodily or natural death came not in by sin Book p. 6 7. Ans p. 23. XI That Christ came not to redeem men from out of the natural or bodily death B. p. 7. Ans p. 25. XII That our faith that is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots and so by consequence that all the faith that is grounded in Christs appearing and suffering for us without us and in his appearing in heaven for us and so such faith as that of the Elect mentioned Rom. 8. 33 34 35. is by these mens Doctrines to be rooted up Book p. 10. Ans p. 41 42. XIII That the Apostles and all that were led by the spirit of God c. witnessed the Redemption of the body spoken of Rom. 8. 23. when they were upon the earth and did not put it afar off as they deridingly phrase the looking and waiting for it till after death in which they say again in effect that the resurrection of the believers body is made in this life Book p 11 12. Ans p. 47 48 XIV That the knowledge
perfect in knowledge and then they are wretchedly unhappy that take them for Oracles that are so ignorant If they know this then dealt they guilfully and intended to deceive simple ignorant people that cannot distinguish things that differ by their Sophistry and then the case of their followers is yet more wretched which things being so 4. Their conclusion cannot follow from those premises viz. So that he that had no guile in him had no sin in him but the contrary so that he that had no guile in him might have ignorance and other sins in him G. W. They accuse J. H. also of turning George Whiteheads words in saying he said guile is a transgression of the law therefore guile is all sin which they say is falsly framed and that the words were to this effect Every transgression of the law is guile or sin and all guile includes all transgression of the law therefore every sin is guile Rep. I call God and men to witness whither George Whitehead be not herein a notorious lyer who hath shamefully turned his own words and belyed both himself and me why else should I match it and detect his Sophistry in his syllogisme by this as like it all sin is a transgression of the law but lying is transgression of the law therefore lying is all sin It is true that syllogism of his was falsly framed and so much I told him then but it was of his own framing nor does he repeate it here as I writ it rightly and as he framed it but leaves out the word all in the minor and the whole major proposition as any that compare our books may discern And when they say their words were to suâ—â— effect as they repeat why say they not directly they were their words may they not as boldly lye and falsifie in one thing as in another and what kind of argument have they framed here sure as corrupt as that he framed then for here is but onely the same falshood affirmed in three severall forms of words to the same sense and none of them proved and yet they would infer the last form of them from the two former just like this every transgression of the law is anger or sin and all anger includes all transgression therefore every sin is anger but why saies the first proposition every transgression of the law is guile or sin t is true it s one of them if their or disjoyn then they distinguish sin and guile if it but explicate then they beg the question instead of proving it Oh! Lord deliver this Nation and the poor ignorant people from such sophisters as these be that lead men to destruction They aske G. W. What sin can we prove that Nathaniel had in him when he had no guile in him and tell us we must prove some sin then in him or see our selves confuted Rep. They may as well say seeing the Scripture witnesses that the children of Korah dyed not in the judgement that befell Korah and his company what disease dyed they of and if we cannot prove that they dyed of some disease then we are confuted if we believe and hold that they dyed For as there are many diseases they might dye of though not in that judgement so there be divers sins besides guile secret sins distinct from presumptuous sins as David implies Psal 19. 1. When they tell us what were those secret sins David prayed to be cleansed from distinct from presumptuous sins then may we tell them what sins Nathaniel had distinct from guile David implies sins in them though forgiven and covered in whose Spirits is no guile Psal 32. 1 2. Which we also quoted and that will save us from being confuted though we can prove no one particular sin in Nathaniell but that Scripture they skip over in silence as afraid to meddle with it because thereby they are confuted To our Quotation of Ed. Borroughs saying that saints upon earth may be perfectly freed from the body of sin and death and our concluding them from their doctrine of sinlesness to be deceivers They say W. and F. Here we might as well have accused the true Prophets and Apostles Rep. It seems then by their own intimation they be not such but false Prophets and Apostles what needed that word true by way of distinction of them from themselves else if not to imply that they also be Prophets and Apostles but not true Mind this Reader and beware of them then for say they they witnessed to the same the Quakers witnesse to Rep. Here they own themselves Quakers too so that we may call them lawfully so whereas they traduce us by many Nick names that we own not as Moorians Manifestarians Freewillers c. Did the true Apostles and Prophets ever so nickname their Opponents as these false ones do But let us see their proof that the true Apostles and Prophets witnessed to the same things that the untrue ones the Quakers do They adde as said the Prophet Blessed are the undefiled in the way they also do no iniquity Psal 119. 1 2 3. And saith the Lord ye shall be clean from all your filthiness Ezek. 36. 25. And Christ exhorted his to be perfect as their heavenly Father is perfect Math. 5. 48. And every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord and the same Apostle who said ye are compleat in Christ said also in whom ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh Col. 2. 10. 11. Rep. Here is no place yet saies that either those Holy men themselves or any others then living were without sin in themselves which is the thing should have been proved 1. As for the Prophet David lived not he under the old Testament as well as Solomon whose saying there is no man that sinneth not they would therewith have eluded but undefiled in the way may signifie either in Christ who is the way John 14. 6. And that we granted or in the way of their walking so as Zachariah and Elizabeth were blameless in their walking in all the statutes and commandements of the Lord and yet Zachary had sin in him which discovered it self when tried with the vision for he believed not the Angel and therefore was punished with blindness Luke 1. 6. 20. And they do no iniquity perverse evil as the word signifies is all one with they do not commit sin yet even such as do not commit sin have sin in them yea and with their flesh serve the Law of sin as we may read Rom. 7. 20. 25. 2. In that of Ezek 36. 25. They confound things distinguished for it is not said as they quote it in one and the same period you shal be clean from all your filthiness but the words are distinguished thus I will sprinkle clean water upon you and you shall be clean there 's a half stop and then follows from all your filthiness and from all your
no more is sufficient to discover their horrible corruption and reprobacy of mind in the things of Christ but more of the like corruption they shew about the Heavens and Christs coming from thence in what follows for to that in Philip. 3. 20 21. Where it is said our conversation is in heaven from whence also we look for the Saviour the Lord Jesus they say W. and F. They say so their conversation was in Heaven and there they looked for the Saviour Reply See here one perversion the Apostle sayes they looked for a Saviour from thence to come namely from Heaven and these say where we look for a Saviour no doubt but had we said so as they say of the Apostles they would have reproached us and said see these men have their Saviour to look for yet as in a letter to us to our saying that the Saints seek their pardon and healing in Christ they retort that we accuse them of having their pardon to seek so wicked are they But of the Apostles looking for Christ from Heaven they take no notice It s no part of their Faith or Expectation it seems they adde W. and F. They did not say their conversation was at a distance far off above the Clouds where we they say look for a Saviour like our selves but that he hath no blood in his body as we Imagine Answ They said their conversation was in Heaven and Heaven is above the Clouds and Gods Glory is in and above the Heavens and in that Glory Christ is and where Christ is there was their conversation as they Exhort also to set our affections upon things above where Christ is also at the right hand of God he sayes not upon things within your selves but upon things above Col. 3. 2 3. But ye may see these men deny the God above and say in effect with the false Prophets Jer. 23. 21. God is a God at hand but not a God a far off But as they said not their conversation was above the Clouds in those very words though they said it in effect So neither said they their conversation was in themselves and thence they lookt for a Saviour their reproach of us that we look for a Saviour like our selves but that he hath no blood in his body as we imagine whom they say they desire not the knowledge of and that our faith which is not grounded in Christs appearing in us is to be turned up by the roots falls heavy upon themselves for all people may see their wickednesse therein for 1. They bely us in saying we look for a Saviour like our selves for we do not judge him like our selves but hope that we who are very unlike unto Him being in vile bodies shall be like him at his appearance When he shall change our vile body that it might be fashioned into the likenesse of his Glorious Body which Glorious Body we think not like ours for then need not ours to be changed that they may be fashioned into the likenesse of his if they were in its likenesse already 2. That his Body hath no blood in it we say not but leave it as a secret what is the form and manner and glory of his Glorious and Glorified Body we say that that body in which Christ shewed Flesh and Bones after the Resurrection and whose blood was shed out is ascended and is in Heaven Glorified and for him in that Glorious Body we with the Apostles look for him from Heaven But 3. Here they clearly say they desire not the knowledge of that Saviour we look for from Heaven and so are out of the Apostles faith and hope and like the wicked ones that said they desired not the knowledge of Gods wayes Job 21. 14. 4. When they say that Faith which is not grounded in Christs appearance in us is to be turned up by the Roots Do they not plainly imply that the Apostles faith is to be turned up by the roots indeed we see how broadly they endeavour it for though the knowledge of Christ was given into the Apostles hearts and his Life and Vertues appeared in their Doctrine and walking yet their faith was not grounded in his appearing in them but in what Christ had done in his death and sufferings for them and in his appearing at Gods right hand for them see else Rom. 8. 33 34. Their faith stood in this that Christ had died yea rather was risen again and is at Gods right hand making intercession for them but we may see how far these mens faith differs from the Apostles that make no account of Christs appearing in the flesh or in his Glorious Body hereafter So as to have their faith grounded therein but only in an imaginary appearance of Christ in them for so it must be and no better that hath not for the ground of it Christ appearing in the flesh for them before they were born and so not in them and his appearing in Heaven for them and in Glory to them at the end of the World The faith of which they imply must be turned up by the Roots for mind what they oppose that saying to We said that at once they turne up by the Roots all the faith of Christs appearing in the presence of God to Mediate for us and make intercession which the Apostles and Primitive believers had so much of their hope and rejoycing in as also all the Faith and Hope of his Glorious descending and coming again to change our vile bodies c. and to all the Kingdome and Glory to be revealed to and enjoyed by the Saints Now they taking no notice of Christs appearing in Heaven to Mediate for us and having spoken of the Faith of Christs coming again from Heaven as a thing past in Pauls age say that our faith which is not grounded in Christs appearing in us which implyes all the points before mentioned for Christs appearing in us cannot be the ground of the faith of those things but only a fruit and confirmation of it is to be turned up by the Roots so that they deny the fundamental Doctrines to establish only their imaginary conceits But remember Reader that they said before that the Apostles were the true Apostles and so they be but false Apostles and Prophets in their imaginations 3. We charged them as Reprobate concerning the faith about the Resurrection of the dead and thou mayest see Reader what good ground we had so to do by what they have said now about it For if Christs coming at which the dead are to be raised was while the Saints in the Apostles time alive remained then is the Resurrection they speak of past so that there needs no further doubt of their corruption about that We charged them with saying that the same body that dies shall not be raised again and in their Book they plead stifly for it W. and F. We change George Foxes words for he said that which is raised is a spiritual body and
the World was Reply That we did not bely G. W. but they us the repeating those things that passed will evidence we urged that Ed. Burroughs foresaid passage confest not Christ come in the flesh and G. W. to justifie his saying alleadged that the Apostles thenceforth knew Christ no more after the flesh which to what purpose could it be if not to insinuate that to know him after the Spirit is to know him as he was before the World was and to know him otherwise viz. as one that since the World came and suffered in the flesh for men is to know him after the flesh Why else was he beaten from it and waved it upon our clearing it that it was the Apostles knowing him as one that dyed for all that led him to let go that knowledge of him after the flesh there denyed by him and therefore that knowing him as one that died was not the knowledge after the flesh Nor were we declaring or speaking about our knowing Christ one way or other when he brought it but against the knowledge they plead for as the knowledge to Salvation false it is therefore that he brought it against our knowledge of him which we matter not his reproaching of who is grievously and notoriously erroneous as hath been seen yea doth not his distinction here in his reproaching our knowing Christ as he was in the flesh or after the Spirit plainly imply that the knowing Christ as he was in the flesh is not with them the knowing him after the Spirit so that the knowing him after the Spirit is not the knowing him as come in the flesh contrary to 1 John 4. 2. by which they are discovered to be Antichristians if they judge them the same why do they distinguish and divide them It plainly implyes that the Spirit after which they know him doth not teach them to know him as he was in the flesh yea its plain too that by that phrase of knowing him after the Spirit in E. â—s Book is meant a distinct knowledge from the knowing him as come in the flesh and so makes that empty and lifeless seeing here they distinguish them as different so that their own words condemn them to them that are intelligent And whereas they say we contend against knowing him as he was before the World was and neglect Christ and so against the knowledge of the Glory of God as a knowledge to Salvation Herein also are they false for it is not against the knowledge of Christ as before the world was that we contend but against their making that knowledge the knowledge of him to Salvation nor said we we do neglect Christ though who can so worthily prize and serve him as in nothing to be guilty of the neglect of him We shall God inabling be more industrious to mind him manage his truth against these mens errors then we have formerly been much lesse is there either truth or knowledge but Ignorance and Confusion in their making the knowledge of Christ as before the World was the knowledge of the Glory of God for the Glory of God is his great goodnesse manifested and brightly shining forth in Christ sent forth and crucified for us Exod. 33. 18. 2 Cor. 4. 4. 6. It is the light of the knowledge of the Glory of God that is in the Face of Jesus Christ as represented in the Gospel which preaches him crucified And so that Glory could not be known as he was before the World was for God was manifested in the flesh and not as before and without the flesh or respect to it so as to our Salvation Besides there is fallacy in saying the Spirit and Power in which the Apostles knew Christ and one another was before the World was for its one thing to say the Spirit and Power was before the World was and the object now manifested as now manifested by that Spirit and Power the knowledge whereof is to Salvation is Christ as he was before the world was and not as he was made flesh since the world Having made good these our charges of them we shall be briefer in the rest P. 13. Our distinction of the condition of the Nature of man as it is in the believer from what it is in Christ they charge with making it in the believers to be seperate from Christ To which we say we believe and say with the Apostle that the believer while in the body is absent from Christ but not seperate Yet we say his nature as in him is distinct from it as in Christ because in the believer its subject to infirmity and bodily Death in Christ it is not they deny the sinfulnesse of Nature commonly called Original sin contrary to Psal 51. 5. Job 14. 4. Rom. 5. 12. 18 19. And say that to make the believer to have two Heritages a Natural and a Spiritual is an old delusion of the Priests it seems then believers have no such Heritage as bodily weaknesse or Death or if they have it it s a Spiritual and not a Natural Heritage to them is it But we believe and so do all that know anything that the believer by Nature and after the Flesh as a man inherits one thing and after the Spirit as a believer another After the flesh and by Nature the Image of the Earthly and after the Spirit the Image of the Heavenly was not Paul one of the Priests that here they reproach for he taught such a distinction in 1 Cor. 15. 44. 46. 49. There is a Natural Body and there is a Spiritual Body is the believer heir to both by Nature or to neither of them Naturally Let them answer directly if they reproach that distinction which holds also in sin and Righteousnesse if the Priest Paul may be believed Rom. 7. 24. 25. For in his flesh he found the law of sin and had sin dwelling we suppose that was no Spiritual heritage and in his mind the Law of God we suppose that was not Natural and do not these men imply the same they condemn in saying the Believers witnesse a better Heritage then sin in their Nature Do they not imply that they witnesse that too though a better besides However may not believers witnesse that and yet witnesse also a better then that as Paul did Paul said in him in his flesh dwelt no good thing whence had he that Heritage and yet in his minde was the Law of God was not that a better Heritage W. and F. p. 14. To our charging them with denying the humanity of Christ they say changing our phrase They never denyed the Man Christ Reply If they deny him now to be a man and to have a humane Body then they deny his humanity which was it we charged them with and that they deny his having an humane body or any other then his Church is evident by what they said page 8. besides the Body his Church they grant him to have nothing more of man then he
had before the World was and his Body the Church makes him not a personal man as for eating his flesh what 's that His Flesh too must be something of his Body the Church except he hath two Fleshes on his Body and another of it they may grant he was a man and had Flesh but that proves not that they believe his humanity now to abide We said Christ is not really and personally in the believers as he is in Heaven against that they pretend to argue but leaving out the word personal they plead for a real presence onely and so plead not against our saying for we add the word personal to distinguish it from all other manner of real presences a real presence we deny not by faith in and with the believers though such a real and personal presence as is in Heaven we do Here then they Fight with their own shadow How T. M. owned the Blood of Christ to be the foundation of faith may be seen in the Answer to what they noted in their Epistle as his Principles It seems it is not the foundation of their Faith and so their faith is not the faith the Apostles preached for that was faith in Christs blood as the foundation and ground of it Rom. 3. 25. and so Christ by virtue of his blood shed but neither T. M. nor any of us made the present being of the Blood of Christ or simply its material substance the foundation of Faith and therefore they play the Sophisters in what they say And whereas they say that We now tell them that his blood was shed or powred out for the Remission of our sins and in the vertue of it is with the Father and so in and with Christ they say herein we confute our selves but in what that we could not assert where the material blood namely that issued out of his side is and yet we say that the virtues of it are with the Father and so in and with Christ Reply What gross deceit is here As if this is our answer now and was not so then Whereas we call God to witness and the people that were present that we told them then the virtues of it are in the person of Christ and so represent it in our Narrative as the answer we gave What moved them else to dispute against the virtues of Christs Blood being separable from its substance if we did not so answer And our answer then would not satisfie which it seems now doth because they cannot give a better So that G. W. and G. F. may rather be ashamed to insinuate to our hearers that we confute ourselves when we said the same things then that now they would bring against us as cross to what we said then we for any thing we have said to them nor are the not being of the blood materially in his Body had we so said and its being in the vertues of it with the Father and so in Christ at all contradictory to them that know what contradictions mean Why did they not charge us with falshood rather in saying in our Narrative that we gave that for an answer that we did not if they know in their Consciences we did not then answer to and if they know the contrary why do they dissemble it W. and F. They quarrel with us for saying That the dying and death of Christ is the foundation of our faith and yet it is not alwayes in being that is he is not alwayes dying and that the blood is not simply the foundation of our faith and then tell us that we preach a foundation of our faith that is not in being whereas the foundation of faith is Christ who is ever in being Reply See here their wilful fraud for whereas we said the dying of Christ is the foundation or of the foundation of our faith see else our book these words or of the foundation they willingly leave out And whereas we added to what they repeat viz. to that the blood of Christ is not simply the foundation we added but Christ himself by vertue of it as it was shed for us and he raised from the dead and he abides for ever They have concealed those words which had they repeated they had had no ground for their cavil Are not these meer Cavellers and forgers then that durst so wilfully create cavels against us where was none by curtailing and misrepresenting our sayings They say As for what he acted in his sufferings that was done that through his sufferings and works men might believe in him c. Reply What doth this but in other terms though but in deceit for that faith is that which is to be rooted up as not grounded upon Christs appearing in them that they might know him as he was before the world was and so to Salvation acknowledge what they would cavil at for what doth this differ from being the foundation of faith if they were done that through them Men might believe in him It seems without them then no ground of believing of him They say They did not blame us for not asseâ—â—ing the blood shed not in his body but for calling it the foundation The former part of which appears false by their often twitting us with it and yet it seems they do not assert otherwise of it then we did save that they believe no personal body for it to be in as for calling it the foundation of faith we did it not if either of us did it in opposition to and beside Christ but as that through which Christ is the foundation meaning by blood his sufferings to the shedding of his blood nay indeed his sufferings may in some sence be said to be the foundation of faith and Christ himself the foundation of his Church who are in that faith W. and F. They say T. M. his instance for Christs being in Heaven with a body of flesh and bones without blood in it was that we do not read that there was any blood in Adams body in Paradise for which say they he might as well have said that then Adams body had no life in it and such a body they say we imagine Christs to be whenas the blood is the life and all Nations are made of one blood Act. 17. 26. and they ask if we believe there was no blood left in Christs body when he was crucified Reply T. M. brought forth indeed such an observation as a conception or thought of his which rendred it probable to his apprehension that a glorified spiritual body needs not the being of material blood in it that he reads not that Adams body had blood in it before the fall in which he conceives what before was more purely spirits was changed into blood and therein the body became mortal but this is but his private conception which he gives not forth as an Oracle to be believed as an Article of Faith We read that Paul himself in some things propounded to him gives
not have done had he in no sense or in no good sense known God Thirdly Nor doth God at all reprove Elihu as speaking a misse in any thing of him as he did Job and his other friends So that the matter was not material onely it showed that I was forgetful and are not these men so too Or are they more then men Sure they would be thought so and not to be of them of whom James sayes my Brethren be not many masters that is be not censorious and harsh lording it over men as if you were without Spot or failing knowing we shall receive the greater condemnation for in many things we offend all the people must conceive that all they write and say is by infallible inspiration To this purpose was it that George Fox happening to come by a letter I writ in answer to G. W. in vvhich being the first draught of it upon some revievv finding some things spoken to in the substance of them in two or three places as I was occasioned by diverse passages of like import in G. Ws. Letter I had blotted out in one place 2. or 3. lines as sufficiently spoken to in another place and instead thereof write some other things that came to my mind that I judged meet now G. Fox finding this writes in the margin of my letter this or the like question whether what I had first written and blotted out I was led to write by the Spirit of God c. and yet in Geo. Ws. Letter there were many blottings out of words as for Ministry of sin which he had writ he blotted it out and writ sinful Ministry and in one place interlined a whole line are not these right Pharisees and Hypocrites that will fault failings of Memory and such corrections of mistakes as passe in us and therein glory and pretend to others as if all they writ and spake was by the Spirit and yet wherein they glory they are found even as we as is said by Paul of the false Apostles 2 Cor. 8. 11. As for God speaking against Eliphaz as not speaking of him the thing that was right as Job did it was after Job had humbled himself and confest his fault and God had forgiven him for before God faulted him also as not speaking rightly of him See else Job 38. 1. 2. and 40. 2. Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him he that reproveth God let him answer it sure he that reproveth God doth not speak right of him So ver 8. wilt thou disannual my judgement and condemn me that thou mightest be righteous But again doth it follow that because Eliphaz spake not rightly of God in some things therefore he speak not right of the Angels or nothing at all right of God Is not this a right thing that he said of God that he doth great things and unsearchable marvilous things and without number and that he gives rain upon the Earth c. Job 5. 8. 9. Beside that what Eliphaz said of the Angels as charged with folly is related by Eliphaz rather as a thing revealed to him and said to him in a vision by a Spirit then as any saying of his own see else Job 4. 13. 14. 15 16 17 18. But would ye know why G. W. made this exception against my quoting of Eliphas his words it was because I said it was the good Angels way to abase themselves in Gods presence and not to proclaim themselves holy but God as not judging themselves pure in comparison of him whereas the evil Angels use to proclaime themselves as Gods and desire to be worshipped and because I compared the Quakers practice to that of the evil Angels and not of the good therefore George would put that off by saying those were Eliphaz his words that spake not aright of God but I mentioned also Isa 6. 2. 3. 4. which he fairly past over with silence thinking his exception against that in Job 4. and 15. was enough to blind his seduced Disciples eyes that they would never minde what Isaiah said as for my belying the Servants of the Lord as he falsely calls the Quakers in my Book and false Letters sent abroad into the Country as he charges me thou mayest judge of the truth of that Reader by the truth or falshood of these Quakers in all hitherto discovered it s no discredit to be called a lyar and deceiver by lyars and deceivers they say I have often belyed them and they could produce them t is well they do not produce them though but onely say what they can do thinking you will call them Masters therein and take it for a truth upon their bare say so But can you think their charity such to me as to have mentioned no one thing I have belyed them in if they had many to produce What they say about our probable Arguments on both sides about the reuniting of the blood of Christ with the body in his Resurrection needs no answering The impartial Reader of our Book may observe that there is onely mentioned what might be alleadged on either part of the question without any determinations and so that they say falsly that we guessed it either way that a School-boy could have given as good an answer as we gave above against which they are able here to except nothing save to dissemble it that we gave not that answer then is not very credible but if so it seems these Prophets could have given no better neither for they fault us not they say for not asserting it in the Body of Christ their revilings and reproaches we pass over in silence onely whereas amongst those probable arguments we said about that in 1 Cor. 15. So Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God that in the changed state what was blood before might be changed into Pure Life and Spirit the thing or substance remaining though not in the same form of Blood which yet we conclude not but lest to the judgement of the able in the Church They say This is a meer dreame and one of J. Hs. divinations and contradicts Moors words for he said that the Life of Christ is not in his blood We Reply That it is a dream or divination of J. Hs. cannot be because it s not his assertion that it is so but so it may be for ought they or I can shew to the contrary nor contradicts T. Ms. words for if it be changed into pure spirit and life yet not in the form of blood which last words they crastily left out the better to deceive the simple and make it seem a contradiction then is not his life by that supposition in his blood in the sence he spake it in that is the life of his glorified body is in not in the Blood if it be not Blood but pure life and spirits so as to be nourished by the supply of blood as the natural body is the Scripture they allude to speaks of the mortal