For where in his former assertion although not in wordes yet in deed he vtterly condemned the wisedome off God ordeining pastors and Doctors for continuall functions in the church of whom there is no vse if simple reading be as effectuall as preaching that being wrung owt off his handes in that he is compelled to confesse greater efficacy off preaching towardes the vnlearned yet rather thē all this cobweb should be vnweaued he maketh the ministery off preaching voide towardes the learned Wheras the scripture doth not onely generally but particularly and expresly shut vp the saluation off the learned in the meanes off preaching as off the vnlearned But this is a peece off the doctorall diuinity of some in Camebridge which to excuse their shamefull contempt off preaching and to make them a pillow to sleepe on or to pane them an alley to bowle in during sermons in the afternoone shame not to alledge that they cā profit as much in reading the scriptures or an homily owt off Chrysostome in their study as by hearing a sermon in the church Vnto the example off the Eumuche vvhich reading the scripture belieued not vntill he heard Philip preach he answereth that he vnderstood yt not and that he speaketh off an vnderstanding reader Which although it be vntrue the wordes off his former booke being generall withowt so much as the least signification off exception yet it is nothing worth For the cause why he could not vnderstand yt is there assigned for that he had no teacher to shew him the way Wherby followeth not which the Papistes conclude off this place that the people owght not to read the scriptures seing the Eunuch which both knew and confessed that he could not vnderstand withowt a guide exercised him self diligently in reading off them but this followeth that a man can not ordinarily not onely come to saluacion but not so much as to a sufficient knowledge off it withowt preaching Where off infinite examples he saith one is as few as may be yt appeareth this one was to muche for him to answer Now for all the false accusations off ioyning with papistes in despising off reading the scripture c. once heare yowr one proces that yt is yow that strengh then their handes For as in popery by committing the office off preaching especially vnto the beggerly friers and by declaring it more honorable for the bishop to reade a masse then to preach a sermon they set reading in the head and preaching in the taile so yow making simple reading as profitable as preaching hasten after them and if yow keepe the same pase yow haue begon it will not be long or euer yow ouertake them The D. hauing before made simple readers equall with preaching pastors in that he holdeth simple reading as effectuall as preaching heere in making bare reading better then preaching preferreth the readers aboue the preachers But in this later absurdity first as before he woulde make Musculus his pack-horse and therfore brawleth becawse I laied it not vpon Musc so princely is the D. that he would haue his faultes whipped vppon an other mans skin but at least I should haue deuided it between them As if I were matched with Musculus but the truth is that he maketh not for him For he compareth the profit taken of symple reading and off a sermon made of him which endeuoreth to make a glorious shew off eloquence and learning rather then to apply him self to the capacity off the simple which is nothing to that in hand where good reading is cōpared with good preaching And therfore it is ridiculous the D. bringeth of bitter inuectiues and contentious sermons c. compared with orderly reading For in this comparison it were not hard to proue which is blasphemy that yt is better to reade a peece off Lyuy then the bookes off the kinges namely if Lyuy be simply red and the other with interlining and mixture off popishe interpretation If one defending this would for maintenance off his comparison bring this escape would not all men hisse at him this is his refuge also to salue that he saied off homilies red better then sermons preached His other instance off a papist carying preiudice against all preachers and therfore not moued once by their doctrine in which notwithstanding after by reading he is established is insufficient for if the Lord by his vertue shewed throwgh preaching doo conuert men vttenly peruerted and at enmity with all truth and consequently with the ministers theroff how much more will he therby conuert papistes which by doubting whether the gospell be truth or their superstitions haue ground or no cary not that enmyty the other doo which haue no such entrance Then yow muste vnderstand that as in the Sacramētes the Lord doth not alwaies at the same tyme they are ministred worcke by his spirit but chooseth the time that seemeth good to his wisedome so yt is in preaching wherby yt cometh to passe that the spirit of God worcking faith at the time of reading wrought it not by that meanes onely but vsed therunto the help off preaching which went before For as greene wood laied vpō fire and her with many strong blastes as laste set on fire and flaming with one and that a soft blaste is not to be be saied chiefly set on fire with the soft blaste because it wēt immediatly before euen so the word off God blowen by preaching and after sensibly burning in the hearres of the hearers by the meanes off reading immediatly gone before is not so muche to be ascribed vnto reading as preaching Considering that so it might comme to passe which is absurd that contemplacion off the creatures should profit more then reading For wheras the Lord hath seth the print off the moste off his promises and other doctrines in the creatures for example off his fatherly care off prouiding al thinges necessary for his in the prouision for birdes off the ayer and rich array off the lilies off the field yt may comme to passe that that doctrine knowen by meanes off preaching and lying as yt were dead in the heart may after by sight and earnest vewe off the thinges them selues be quickened yet none off iudgement will say that the beholding off the creatures wrrowght more in this then preaching Howbeit if the cases he putteth in this point were true yet he is inexcusable thes plaisters comming a ye are and a half after the wound giuen by such straunge speach which owght to haue gone with yt if peraduenture they might althowgh not heale yet somewhat hide the lothsome rawnes Hytherto perteineth that which he hath disorderly put pag. 176. where he saith that the reading off Saint Paules epistles did the Romanes more good thē preaching which is cōtrary to S. Paules meaning who sheweth that he could not haue the like fruice off his ministery towardes them as off other nations because he was letted to comme and preach vnto
signification should be followed for part of the writers of canonicall bookes as of Iosue Iudges Sam. Chron. Kinges c. are vnknowen To that wherin the booke is charged for lifting vp of diuers cha of the Apocrypha to be red as extra ordinary lessons vppon feast daies vvherin there are greatest assemblies some chap. off canonicall scripture being not red at all he answereth not a word but leaueth it to speake for it self Seing then the scripture precisely forbiddeth to ordeine a pastor not fit to teach and bare reading off homilies is conuenient off holy scriptures insufficient to saue the people by which are the cruches wherewith the D. would vphould this lame ministery it followeth together with the shamefull absurdities off reading to be preaching to be as good yea better then preaching that vnpreaching pastors as the pestilence off the church owght to be throwen owt Now I retourne backe to the 7. Tract off Ministers apparell wherunto albeit I was determined as may appeare to reply yet considering after that this cawse hath bene so fully debated both by bookes in print and other treatises written in the handes of as many as desire after them considering also that the D. second answer beside false accusations as that men haue learned off me and my parteners to esteme the surplis c. corrupt in them selues c. open facing downe off thinges in knowledge off all men as that none are hindred one iot from comming to the gospell by prescript apparell bare affirmacions withowt proofe as that no minister making conscience off wearing thapparell will rather weare it moued by example off other then by the law which commaundeth it almost continuall reasoning not to the matter which he cowardly dissembleth as that Prophetes which were extraordinary ministers had an extraordinary apparell which is not denied which traine taken at the beginning is followed to the end triumphes in his owne shame â—â— appeareth in the place off Salomons Ecclesiastes I say beside thes considering that he hath almost nothing at all not before answered and that he hath not fetched from any treasury off good learning but as taken vp by the highe way sideâ— and considering that we haue this question with very few him the Papistes or those which haue already cast an eye vnto the papistes onely excepted with whom to trauaill in this point before their other gale be purged were to heale the skinne and leaue the bones still broken all thes things considered with that that it may better appeare we take not these thinges for the greatest matter we coÌ„plaine of I thowght good to tread this treatise vnder my foot and to saue some good howres which might be lost in vnripping this beggery That I saie off hauing this question with very few him c. excepted I meane in that where he saith the surplis square cap and tippet be most conuenient decent and comely others in whom there is any loue off the truth confesse it a weed vnmeet for a minister of the gospell which not able to root owt they are for certeine causes content to beare with And althowgh destitute off answer he plie his matter with accusatioÌ„s of disobedieÌ„ce and conteÌ„pt of magistrate yet I doubt not but with all indifferent our open and simple profession off the necessitie off higher powers and off the honour and humble submission to Her Maiestie and all magistrates vnderneth her ether in doing thinges commaunded or patiently suffring for that which we can not with good conscieÌ„ce doo shall be sufficient defense especially seing that euen in this matter off apparell it is confessed that obedience owght to be giuen where the commaundement is with iniury to the ministery As for the D. ether error or flattery that in thinges indifferent commaunded by the Magistrate we owght not to haue such regard to the offense off the weake but that if all should be offended that is to say perish and make shipwracke off conscience for that is the offense which S. Paul and we after him speake off yet we owght to doo that which is commaunded the Magistrate being therby lifted aboue the Lord we vtterly condemne Considering it being a flat commaundement off the holy gost that we absteine from thinges in their owne nature indifferent if the weake brother should be offended no autoritie ether off church or commen wealth can make yt voide And where the magistrates commaunding and owr obedience vnto him owght to be squared owt first by the loue off God then off men our brethren especially this new carpenter as one that frameth his squire according to his tymber and not his timber according to the squire will make our obedience to the cyuill Magistrate the rule off the loue off God and our brethren So that in steed that he should teach that we may obey no further vnto the magistrate then the same wil agree with the glory off God and saluation off our brethren he teacheth that in thinges off their owne nature indifferent we must haue no further regard nether to saluacion off our bethren nor to the glory off God which in neglect of their saluacion is troden vnder food then will agree with doing that the magistrate commaundeth But I am gone further then I thowght seing there caÌ„ hardly be any so symple which perceiueth not easely both the fondnes and absurdity off his answers in this question The replie to the D. 8. Tract off Archbishopes and Bishopes Vnto the firste and seconde diuision being beside the question I answer nothing Before I come to the thirde forsomuche as the place off the Euangelistes which is before is generall and striketh at all the loftie and swelling titles off the ministrie I will set it here downe in the foreward off the reasons browghte againste the names off Archbishopes c. as that which speaking againste all the smoky names muste nedes comprehende thes In the D. answer therfore wherby he goeth aboute to proue that thes wordes gratious or bountifull Lordes make nothing againste the great names and magnifical titles off the ministers this is the firste that Saint Marke and Muthewe haue no wordes bearing any suche sense Wherunto I answer that as yt is a generall rule almoste throwghowte the scripture that repetitions are not withowt some vsury and increase so in the writinges of the EuaÌ„gelistes yt is to be obserued almost euery where And therfore yt owghte not to haue bene strange if other Euangelistes speaking off the autoritie onely S. Luke added also touching the titles Secondly he answereth this clawse yt shall not be so vvith yovv is not referred vnto those wordes are called bountifull and benefyciall but vnto ambition and tyraÌ„nical dominioÌ„ onely wherunto I answer firste that forsomuch as the things there affirmed of the Ministers and the worde off gracious Lordes is as well affirmed off kinges as the worde off bearinge dominion therfore those wordes yt shall not be so
at large Vnto the fowre nexte sections I answer nothing sauing that where in the seconde secâ— pa. 5â— he saith that master Caluin in his booke against the Anabaptistes affirmethe that the churche as towching the external pollicie can not be perfecte I doo assure my selffe that as in other places so heere he hathe vntrewly saide off Maister Caluin And yt cannot bâ— vnknowne but in Moses and the Apostlâ—â— times ther was a perfecte patruÌ„ of the owtwarde gouernernment off the churches bothe giuen off the lorde and receiued off the churches neither can there be any parte of the owtwarde gouernement off the churche assigned by the answerer which draweth any suche impossibilitie withe yt as he imagineth And iff he saye that ther were faultes committed againste those perfecte patrones that is not to the purpose For the faultes off particular persons doo no more ouerthrowe the perfection off the gouernment whiche was receiued then the faultes off the officers in our churche againste the lawes theroff are to be imputed vnto the lawes them selues wherby that gouernment standeth And as for the examples off the churches off Corinthe and Galatia whiche he alledgeth they rather make against him For that disorder whiche the Apostle chargeth them withe being a slyding backe and falling awaye from that estate wherin they were firste off all set by the Apostell argueth that there was a time when the contrarie off those disorders had place in their churches In the nexte section he alledgeth diuers examples to proue that enemies one withe another conspire against the trewthe whiche no man do which and where I shewed that the churches friÌ„des may doo some thiÌ„ges which some of the churches enemies doo against him whiche in that the admonitors doo certaine thinges with the Papiste and Anabaptistes woulde giue to vnderstande that they are conspired with theÌ„ he answerethe that the admonitors conspire withe the enemies off the churche in thinges whiche are againste the churche which is a manifest begging off that whiche is in controuersie Towching that which I sayde he hathe tawght that there is no commaundement in the scripture to put heretikes to deathe althowghe he denie that euer he did so yet beside that he mainteineth the same in the seconde treatise where he leaueth yt in the libertie off the magistrate whether he will doo yt or no and reiecteth all the lawes off God prouided in that behalfe as Iewis he there be moo witnesses off this then his bare deniall is hable to beare downe to whose knowledge I wil so reporte me in this behalfe that if they confirme not the same I refuse not to beare the blame off that reporte where he saieth there is no cause that he shoulde be better thought of emonge the papistes which teache and practise the contrarie althoughe the Papistes abuse this doctrine to the horrible murther off the church yet the doctrine is the doctrine off god and not the Papistes and yow by staying the course off yt nourishe them to the daye off slawghter and shedding off the bloude off the sainctes off god vvhich is their feaste and vvhiche they so greatly delight in and longe after In althat which foloweth vnto the first tractate vvhich beginneeth page 62. there is nothing worthe the answere And as for that whole tractate because yt perteineth to the question off lordeshipp and dominion off the Archebishopps ouer the bishops and off the Bishopps ouer the reste off the Ministers yt shall be referred to the beginning off the 8. Tractate where the answerer shall receiue his replie What authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders Chapter 1. pag. 77. THe playster vvherwithe the answerer woulde heale his vnskilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche by these wordes placing in the churche will not cleane For to let pas the meanig off the admonition whiche he shoulde haue shewed iff he mainteine his answer by yt and not as he doothe contrary to all lawe of disputation bid me proue that their meaning was not so as he supposeth I saie to let that pas yt appeareth by bis plaine vvordes that this exposition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admonition but for that he knew not what difference there was betwene placinge in the churche and tollerating in the churche For himselffe coÌ„fesseth that this is the principall grounde of their booke that those thinges onely shoulde be placed in the churche whiche the lorde himself in his worde comÌ„aundethe and ascribing this iudgemeÌ„t vnto them he afterwarde expoundeth that to be asmuche as if they shoulde haue saide that nothing shulde be tolerated c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed c as the A. confessethe and placing in the churche is not the same that tollerating in the churche as he doothe also confesse yt must folowe that the principall grounde off the admonition was not as he saithe that nothing shoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde And his wordes doo discharge the admonition off any suche assertion For in that he saithe that their meaning was so farr as he coulde gather that nothing shoulde be placed c. yt is manifeste that in saying nowe that they mente that nothinge shoulde be tolerated c. he chargeth them farther then he was then hable to gather off their booke Afterwarde he chargethe me withe an vnaduised and a popishe assertion for that I say that many thinges are commaunded in the scripture vvhich are not expressed in yt He neded not to haue trauailed far to haue seene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe iff he woulde haue but considered the wordes which folowe in the same diuision that god hathe set before vs in his vvorde a perfect patrone off his churche But I was at leaste ouerseene in this kind off speache Alas iff he woulde vnderstande his grammer and acknowledge that which simple scholers off the gramÌ„er schoole doo well knowe that their is difference betweene expressed and conteined betweene expressed and included betweene expressed and implied betweene expressed and gathered He woulde neuer haue troubled the reader with suche folies And as for that which I set downe I did yt vppon Good groundes For who is there which knoweth not that thes thinges that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade that there is in our Sauiour Christe one parson and two natures are not expressed but onely conteined in the worde off God And iff proofe must be had off thinges which is to greate shame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ignorant off let the answerer know that lerned diuines speake afte this sorte Their wordes be thes Off the father of the Sonne and holy ghoste there is one nature one essence and thre persons In Christ our lorde there be tvvo natures and one person and many other thinges vvhich the catholike churche doothe receiue rather layde oute by the interpretation
off the Scriptures then expressed in the vvordes off the Scripture Here the answerer may lerne that certaine off the cheiff pillers off our Religion by the Iudgement off this councell are not expressed in the worde off God and yet notwithstanding bothe conteined in the worde off God and commaunded to be beleued And where he saithe that he couÌ„ntethe that expressed in the scripture when yt is either in manifest wordes conteined or theroff gathe red by necessary collection I answer that I suppose that there was neuer writer holie nor prophane that euer spake so and that yt byddethe defiance bothe to de vinitie and humanitie being forged as yt is to be feared contrary to his owne knowledge onely that he might giue some colour vnto that absurdytie which he woulde so gladlye fasten on me I saie that it is against his owne knowledge forasmuche as in his former booke and euen in the nexte diuision which is in the 78 page off this his later booke he confessethe this difference off being expressed in the worde and gathered off it which is the same in effecte which I haue saide For he saithe that nothing owght to be tollerated in the churche ' c. onles yt be expresly conteined in the worde off god or maye manifestly therof be gathered Here he plainely opposeth as member off one diuision expressely conteined and manifestly gathered now in this later booke cleane contrarily he maketh gathered to be a part of expressed And in an other place off his former booke as it appeareth in the 24. page off his booke he saithe and none off these circumstances are commaunded in the scripture or by necessarie collection theroff may be gathered Where he supposeth some thinge necessarie to saluation which is not commaunded namely which may be necessarylie gathered of the scripture And iff those wordes commaunded in the scriptures which are generall will not conteine al that which is necessary as his diuision teacheth how much les will thes wordes expressed in the scriptures compas them and iff commaunded and forbidden be all one with expressed as he here affirmeth then did he absurdely to make gathered off the scriptures to be an opposite member vnto commaunded That which I sayed off the argument off authoritie off a man to be neither good affirmatiuely nor negatiuely farther then to induce thereader into somelikinge or mislikinge and not to haue force to compell is apparaunt vnto al which haue any sparcke of iudgement That which is brougâ— out off Aristotle is to no purpose and it maketh also against the A. Forasmuche as where Aristotle saithe that credite is to be giuen to him that is cunninge he speaketh off thinges which haue a likelihoode and may be disputed off on bothe sydes and not of thinges which are to be receiued without gainesaying And I merueile that the A. will not see that amongest men the cunningest in any profession haue in diuerse thinges bene off those which followed them iustly founde fauls with And if he will bothe sticke to Aristotle and interpretâ— him as he dothe that a man ought to beleue euerie one in that as to and profession where in he is conninge then euerie learned Deuine in his profession is to be beleued whatsoeuer he saithe Which beinge absurd and seinge it hathe bene before shewed that an argumeÌ„t of the authoritie of maÌ„ affirmatiuely is not good let vs holde that for somuche as maÌ„ caÌ„not come through his infirmitie vnto the perfectioÌ„ of any thinge which reason being assigned of me is vntouched of the A. and forasmuche as the giftes off god are giuen in measure and not in perfection that an argument off â—he authoritie off man can not enforcevs and that it is proper vnto the Aposties and Prophetes whom the Lorde had chosen to be his notaries and whose handes he helds continually to be without the hazarde off errour To the places which I alledged owte off the worde off god to proue that an argument drawne of the authoritie off the scripture negatiuely is good he answereth that the examples which I bringe be of thinges of great importance and forbidden in other places of the Scripture I graunt they are so and that maketh much against hym for that the Lorde hauinge this aduantage against the Israelites off charginge them that they had doone contrarie vnto his commaundement chose rather to saye after this sorte that they had doone that vvhich he had not commaunded therby to teache his to hange vppon his mowthe And the answerer owght to haue considered that the reason is generall whiche the prophetes vse which otherwise shoulde be no reason at all And it maye be shewed that the same manner off argument hathe bene vsed in thinges which are not off the substance off saluacion or damnation and wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrary In Iosuah the children of Israell are charged by the Prophete that they asked not counsaile off the mouthe off the lorde when they entred into couenant with the Gabeonites and yet that couenant was not made contrarie vnto anie comÌ„aundemeÌ„t of god For howsoeuer yt seemeth to some that vpon the wordes off Moses they owght to haue bene put to deathe being of those nations which dwelte in the inheritaunce off the people off god yet iff yt be considered what the causes were why they might not enter in to league with them which was lest they dwellinge amoÌ„gest them shoulde drawe them to a false worship of god yt will not be harde to vnderstande but that withe condition off yelding themselues bothe to the subiection of the Iewes and to their institution in the Religion of god as thes did they might be receiued There was in deede difference betweene these nations which dwelled in the lande off the inheritaunce off the children of Israel and which dwelt rounde abowte them For where the Iewes might make league with the nations rounde abowte them withowt anie their submission vnto Religion they coulde not doo so with the Cananites c. And where in other nations after peace refused the children off Israell hauing taken a cytie owght to kepe a liue women and children in these ether resistinge them or not submitting themselues vnto the seruice of god it was not lawful to spare ether wemeÌ„ or children But that it was simplie vnlawful for theÌ„ to make league with them vvith any condition I thinke yt can not be shewed for theÌ„ Iosue aÌ„d the princes shoulde haue doone euil to haue kepte their othe with them after they had vnderstanded their frawde cosidering that all othes made againste the comÌ„aundement of god are to be brokeÌ„ And if it be saide that Iosue and the princes did euil in keping their othe the approbation off that facte is apparant in an other place where the vengeance for the lorde fell vppon all Israell by famyn and vpon the housse off Saul particulerly by executing those off his familie because the gabeonites had bene coÌ„trary to the tenure of the
examination be necessary for a deacon yt is muche more necessary for the minister againste that he saide that the fixt off the Actes coulde not serue to proue any thinge touching the ministers election because yt was off deacons he answerethe not but passethe by quietly and maketh no wordes But his other sayinge that there is no mention made off any tryall he holdethe still for good askinge me what one worde off tryall is there I answere that albeit there be not this worde trie yet ther is that which wayeth as muche for the greake worde loke ovvte can not be seuered from a triall And if S. Luke had but vsed the symple verbe which in our tounge signifieth consider yet that off yt selffe had force to haue leade the chusers to a tryall off them which were to be chosen nowe vsinge the compounde thereby he laide vppon them a greater necessitie and a more carefull diligence off triall off them Where iff the Aposteles had not mente herby to haue called the church to a diligente serche and tryall off those which were to bee choosen they woulde haue contented them selues to haue saide take from emongest you c. And althoughe the whole churche had knowledge off those which were the fittest to be chosen to that office which is bothe vnlike and almoste impossible seinge there were certeine thowsandes off late added vnto the churche yet euen those which are well knoweÌ„ vnto vs when they be to be chosen vnto suche great charges are to be inquired into a freshe For that knowledge off a man whiche is sufficiente for vs to liue with him in priuate societie and common course off life is not enoughe to promote him to suche a dignity in the churche and that experience off one vppon confidence wheroff wee durste truste him with our weightiest affaires is not sufficiente thereupon to commit vnto him the lordes matters So that consideringe the weighte off an ecclesiasticall office the manifolde creuisses off mans dissimulation with the dullnes off our sighte to espie them there can be no feare off too muche triall eueÌ„ off those whiche we thinke we knowe already And therfore allthoughe the whole churche had knowledge off those which were apte for that office yet the Apostels admonition off diligent considering whome they chose which coulde not be withowt tryall was not owte off time Againe that the Apostels giue in charge vnto the churche that they shoulde chose suche as had testimonie off there good behauiour perteineth to the examination for the churche in seking testimonie off there good conuersation tried them what they where And vnles this be tryall towching the conuersation off him which is to be chosen minister in the churche of England there is no tryall at all considering that the triall which is had is by the testimonie off certeine So I conclude that this place off the actes makinge for the examination off the Deacon is muche more stronge for the examination of the minister To the nexte section I answere not Diuis 4. What is in the begining off the boke because you set it not downe and I haue not the boke to see I will leaue to euery one to consider Howbeit the wordes which I alledge owte off yt where speaking to the Archedeacons he saithe Take heede that the persons vvhom you presente vnto vs be apre and meerâ— c. declare that the bishope passethe his election vppon the only examination off his Archedeacon But yt makethe no great matter howe many examine seinge the election and ordination hangeth only vppon the Bishoppes pleasure And he partly seinge that all the matter standeth in the courteousie off the Bishoppe and partly as yt semeth willinge that that gowlfe shoulde swallowe vpp all other mens interrestes in this election setteth him selfe to proue yt And where as I alledged that yt is not safe in so vveightie a mater to coÌ„mit that to the powre of one vvhich may be vvith lesse daunger doone by many he goeth abowt to proue that the bishoppe is off all other fittest for that matter Wherin obserue that the D. is quyte goone from the cause For the question is not whether he be off others most fytt but vvhether yt be fytt that he alone shoulde doe it So that if he will haue it a reasone againste the cause this yt is The bishoppe is more hable then any one to make a good examination therfore more hable to make yt then a great sorte more hable to make yt then any one therfore more hable to make yt alone then when he hath other ioyned with him Which is all one as iff he shoulde haue saide The righte hande is more apte to doe thinges then the lefte therfore yt is better they be doone by yt alone then with the helpe off the lefte I doe not here take exception againste the longe experience in thes thinges which he saithe the bishoppe hathe yet he cannot haue it at his first orderiÌ„ge of ministers aÌ„d others mighte haue yt as wel as he if the examinatioÌ„ were as well permitted vnto theÌ„ as vnto him I medell not also with the bishopes either sounde learning or ruled affections which what they be in some is well knowen what theye maye be consideringe that they be not tied to the rochet yt is easie to be considered Let him be as well experienced learned affected as suche a bishopp maie be yet hath he wonne nothinge by all this but that the bishopp owght not to be shute oute in this examination Where he saithe Surely if any one man or mo be voyd off such affefections and thought meet to haue such matters committed vnto him yt is the Bishopp yt had bene good he had assured that Surely with some reason otherwise yt must as yt is be holden for an vnshamfaste begging of that which is denied And off the same sorte is that which followeth that if he be worthie the office off a bishope he maie safely be credited with al thinges incideÌ„t vnto the same for this is that which lieth between vs whether yt be incident to the office off a bishoppe to haue thonely examination off those which are chosen to the ministerie Which yff I coulde geue you I woulde to be ridd off thes importunat askinges Yâ— followethe not because ciuill matters whiche touche the commoditie off this liffe maie be committed to one therfore ecclesiasticall also whiche concerne the liffe to come maie be so hazarded Nay for so muche as maÌ„s insighte into ciuille affaires and iudgement in them is sharper then in matters perteininge to the churche it is cleare that there ye more helpe required in thes then in the other Besides that when as princes by takinge counsailes vnto them in their weightie affaires off the whole realme and for better deciding off priuate mens causes appoincte whole beâ—ches off Iustices standing off fiue or sixe they doo sufficiently declare therby howe they haue the Iudgement off one be he neuer so wise
after the councell had saied that the gospels with other scriptures should be red on Sabboth daies yt addeth vve must not read bookes vvhich are ovvt off the canon but the canonicall bookes off the old and novv testament alone And where he would cōfirme his interpretatiō by the 47. canon off the third councell off Carthage he is againe indebted vnto Harding which against Maister Iewell alledging the councell off Carthage to proue that it commaunded nothing should be red in Christes congregation but the Canonicall scriptures answereth with the same wordes the D. doth charging him with falsehood To whom as now also to the D. the bishop answereth that the meaning off the councell vvas that nothing els shoulde be red which he proueth by the councell off Hippo an abridgement off that off Carthage whene it is thus written The scriptures canonicall vvhich are to be red in the church and beside vvhich nothing may be red and so goeth forward alledging other testimonies affirming partly that nothing owght partly that nothing was wont to be red in the church beside holy scripture His answer to the councell off Colen is too childish The councels wordes in the sixt Canon are these vvhere in times past yt vvas ordeined off the most holy fathers that the holy scriptures alone shoulde be red in the church vve knovve not by vvhat carelesnes other not to be compared vvith them are come into their place Wherby appeareth that it condemneth not onely reading off sainctes liues wheroff it speaketh after but generally the breach of the councels decree that nothing should be red in the church but holy scripture Where he museth how we can say that reading off homilies were meanes to instle the bible into corners seing we will haue the reading of scriptures giue place to preaching I haue shewed how grosse and intollerable ignorance it is where I proued the excellency of preaching before simple reading off scriptures but especially before homilies The obiection which I made off praier is answered the answer is not ones moued as for that the necessity off chaunging the wordes off scripture in praier is as strong against sermons preaching as homilies reading I haue shewed how false it is when as that chaunge is autorised by precise commaundement off God which can not be shewed for reading homilies His reason that the Apocrypha may be red in the church becawse the councell off Carthage decreing onely the reading off canonicall scripture tooke them in that nomber adding that they be aswell red in the church as counted portions off the ould and new testament is absurd For seing it is vtterly vnlawfull for them to take them as portions off the ould and new testament yt followeth by his owne reason that it is vtterly vnlawfull for them to be openly red Where he saith there is nothing in them contrary to the rest off the scripture accounting them as a part althowgh the reason be nothing worth considering that so a booke gathered owt off Cato Theognes and Cebes tables c. may be red in the churche yet I answer that there be many places partly plainly contrary to the holy scripture partly friuolous and vnworthy to be red For Esoras Apocrypha I will refer the reader partly vnto Caluins censure of them the treatise I doo not precisely remember sauing that it is like to be in one of those against the Anabaptists or Libertines whose gospell those bookes be and partly to the manifest contradiction with the holy scripture which referring the genealogy off Esra vnto Eleazar to whom the priesthood belonged is by the Apocrypha referred vnto Ely and consequently vnto Ithamar to whom yt did not apperteine Off some off the other I will gyue a few examples Where the holy gost condemneth the fact off Simeon and Levy towardes the Sichemites Iudith in propounding it for example and to strenghthen her faith in the cutting off off Holofernus head alloweth yt If it be saied but the booke doth not allow it The scripture neuer propoundeth a faultie praier withowt condemning off it especially so long The sonne off Syrach affirming that the true Samuell prophecyed after his death leaueth the disquieting off the iust in the courteousie off coniurers which is vngodly doctrine and contrary to that peace the scripture saith they be in where Daniell sheweth that the fire bourned after the three young men were throwen into it to the commendation of the power of God which kept them from suffring in any part off it the counterfait Daniell affirming that the Angell smote the flame off the fire owt of the fournace and cawsed as it were a moist hissing winde in the middest c. partly falsifieth partly discrediteth Daniel as one that lefte owt such weightie thinges as he there supposeth I passe by how vnworthy yt is that he that hath ouereaten him selff is bidden to rise and goe vomit and after get him self to rest which are preceptes fitter for the kitchin then for the church Likewise the Iewish fable of the fire takē to be hidden and other such toies and of commending him that slue him self off demaunding pardon off the reader a language vnmeet for the holy gost Thes few off a nomber which come to minde shall suffise for a tast And be cause the D. tasteth nothing but autoritie off men he hath Ierome of this minde which writing to a woman biddeth her take heed off all the Apocrypha affirming that they are not theirs vvhose names they beare that there are many faulty thinges mingled and that it requireth vvisdome to seeke for gold in durt The hymne also off the three children he runneth throwgh where Erasmus iestingly saith it is merueill that Ierome putteth this song vpō the spit meaning condemneth it seing it is both red and soung in churches euery vvhere as if it vvere some speciall holy thing Wherby it is not vnlike but that he speaketh in another place off the reading off Apocrypha to edyfying off the people not to confirmation off the doctrine is spoken rather story wise in telling what was doon in that time thē what he allowed for if it be daungerous for one to read them priuately howe must it needes be more to read them openly onles it be with exposition which is yet more absurd Except paraduenture to reconcile Ierome one had rather interprete those wordes the church reades off the priuate reading of euery one off the church wheroff there are examples Now I must put the D. also in minde that nether in his first nor later booke he hath answered the Adm. reason towching priuate reading onely of the Apocrypha because their name vvhich signifieth secret or hid doth speake as much If he will say they are so called because the writers of thē are vnknowen he can not so escape cōsidering that this name doth put a difference betwene them and canonicall which it could not if that
off this then falleth he from his conning distinction off hauing it ambitiously and by election For considering that Bernarde saith he is forbidden it and speaketh not there against the abuse but against the vse off dominion in a bishop it followeth that domynion nether falleth into a bishop in that he is a bishop nor can be receiued off him being offred off the cyuill Magistrate The reader therfore may see that the exposition yow follow off this place doth quite ouerthrowe the bishops answer ād openeth the Papistes mouth which he had stopped Yf this cawse should be tried by autoritie yow could gaine nothing Not onely Caluin Iewell with the auncient fathers which he alledgeth but Bulling Zuing. Gualter with a a nomber of others doo expound it as I haue doon and proue by those places off the Euangelistes in plaine wordes that there is no superioritie off one minister ouer an other and that with fuller wordes then Caluin vseth And euen the very same word Maioritie which yow say in the margent off the text is proued by these places Bullinger affirmeth to be ouertrowen by the same As for yow albeit yow pretend Musculus c. yet in very deed these answers which yow make are taken properly owt of Pigghius which hath all those corners reasons and shiftes almost word for word as yow haue cowched them here in this treatise I report me whether I haue spoken to the meaning or no yow haue mustered them by fyrst second third I will also answer them seuerally And to the first I answer that although our Saui. Christ saied not no man owght to be great amongest yow yet he saied as muche for when he saith the greatest shal be as the least he that is first as seruant to all he fetching downe the greatest to the least and making the cheiftie amongest them a seruice vnto them all taketh away all dominion off one ouer an other This reason I hauing answered before was vnneedfull to be here repeated so remaineth for him to proue that if our Sauiour Christ had ment to take away all domynion off the Apostles one ouer an other then he would haue saied no man owght to be great amongest yow and that there was no other way to giue owt this sense but this The second concludeth that our Sauiour had no meaning to take away superiours amongest Christians nothing to this question For no man denieth but there owght to be superiours As for that he interlaceth off Peter◠cheifty it is answered afterward The similitudes he vseth can not win his superioritie off one minister ouer an other For as for heauenly bodies althowgh one off them be more excellent then an other yet they exercise no dominion one ouer an other Therfore if it proue any thing it proueth that excellency off giftes amongest ecclesiasticall persons doth not lift them vp in autoritie and commaundement one ouer an other but onely maketh a differēce in order ād comelines Which we haue shewed in the beginning to be in ecclesiasticall mynistery where we willingly receiue order opposed to confusion refusing domynion opposed vnto subiection For the heauenly spirites what will yow alledge to proue that they haue domynion one ouer an other The place of the Ephesians thrones domynions principalities povvres if yow doo it is boldier then Augustine durst doo But if they be superiour one to an other that superioritie is answered in the church by superioritie off mynisters ouer the people If they be seuered in orders one from an other that is not denied to be in officers off the church If they exercise domynion one ouer an other that is expressed in commen wealthes So that if the Answ were able to proue all these which will be hard for him withowt Denyses dreames yet he may see they conclude not a domynion off one minister ouer an other The third reason likewise concludeth not against this cawse and to thes two reasons I answered at large Which if the Ans would haue taken away he owght to haue shewed that there can be no superioritie of one ouer an other in the church onles one minister be superior to another but that he passeth slily by and picketh a quarell vnto the examples To his exception against the first example that there is inequalitie amongest seruantes I answer there is none but by the maisters expresse appointement And therfore if he will haue aduantage theroff he muste proue that it is the Lordes ordinance that one minister shoulde rule ouer an other beside that it is enough to mainteine mine answer off equalitie off seruantes in a familie that it is so for the most part ād whē my meaning was of seruātes left in one and the same order yt is owt off time to alledge this exāple Secōdly the inequalitie there made is not of one steward ouer an other but ouer the familie which he ministreth vnto and therfore this similitude maketh to shew that one minister is not ruler ouer an other but euery minister ruler off his flock Thirdly that similitude off gouernement off the steward Math. 24. being propounded as a picture to set forth the rule off ministers ouer their flockes declareth not onely how there owght no gouernement to be erected in the church but by commaundment off God but also how far it owght to be from that absolute domynion or lordly pomp which the Answ would bring in which Musc a great man with the D. declareth when he saieth He speaketh after the commen faschion for this vvas the office of the principall seruant to gyue euery man his diet he vvas not appointed to be lord off others As for his exception against my other example of equalitie off brethren the inequalitie which the scripture maketh betwene the elder brother and the rest is nothing les then any rule or autoritie to commaund them but onely a reuerence which the younger owght to beare to the elder which we willingly graunt amongest the ministery that the younger men gyue place to the gray heares off the elder Thother preeminence off hauing two partes off the goodes wheroff the younger brethren had but one is no matter off inequalitie in autoritie wherof onely we speake wherin also we will not deny but one minister according to his charge off children may haue greater portion then other And both these exceptions are not taken against my allegation so muche as against the godly writers off our tyme Which to proue the equalitie of autoritie off the bishop off Rome with other bishops haue alledged that they called one an other brethren that they vvere fellovv seruantes Dominion here forbidden saith the Ans is not of one minister ouer an other but ouer the people wherin he is greatly deceiued For our Sau. Christ speaking to his 12. disciples according to S. Math. saith vvhosoeuer shall be great amongest yovv shall be yovvr minister and vvhosoeuer amongest yovv shall be fyrst shall be yovvr
conceiued off an opinion they had that those tvvo vvere not vvorthy to rule ouer them The vvordes off our Sauiour Christ in the 20. of S. Math. c. are spoken vnto the 12. onely vvhom he had set apart for the ministerie off the gospell but his vvordes S. Math. 23. are spoken not onely vnto them but vnto the commen people Wheruppon it followeth that our Sauiour ioining the people vvith his disciples in the dehortations vvhich he maketh here could not as in the other place vvhere he speaketh vnto them alone speake off the proper listes and boundes of the ministerie and therfore there is no cause vvhy M. shoulde be glad that I agree with hym in the exposition off Math. 23. Further Math. 20. making comparison betwene the 12. disciples and Princes here so far as towcheth the disciples he maketh comparison betwene them and other ecclesiasticall ministers There being therfore thinges in the state off a commendable Prince vvhich agree not vnto the ministery of the gospell it followeth that he may be well thowght there not onely to haue forbidden the disciples ambition damnable in bothe estates but also those thinges which being commendable in Princes agree not vnto them Off the other side all thinges coÌ„mendable in the Pharises ministrie Ecclesiasticall agreing likewise to theirs it followeth of necessitie that there he must needes speake against ambition onely Vnto the next diuis being reproches I answer not onely vvhere he chargeth me vvith falsehood becawse I affirme he saith the booke off commen praier is a perfect rule to gouerne the churche off England by where nothing is wanting or to much I answer that there be not the same wordes but when there is nothing he will acknowledge to be off the order of the booke which he mainteineth not and refuseth to haue added thinges vvhich haue their ground off the word I leaue to the reader to iudge whether although my wordes are vvith the fullest yet I am far from his meaning Now I returne againe to his 8 Tract The Ans skoffing vppon my vnskilfulnes in logicke saith he can finde nether head nor foot in my reason Thus I will finde both They which deny the lawfulnes of Iohns ministrie because there was no suche ministerie conteined in the scriptures thowght no ministerie lawfull not conteined in them but the Scribes and Leuites did so therfore they esteemed no ministerie lawfull not conteined in scripture Against this he taketh exception first to the translation which is altogether friuolus for beside that both the wordes may beare that signikication and it is not vnlike but by the article the Euangelist ment not some one singular Prophet spoken of in the law beside the Messias but rather any Prophet extraordinary to vvhom the Lord shewed him self ether by vision or dreame the interpretation vvhich he citeth owt of Beza altereth not the argument but rather strenghtheneth it noting therby that it vvas necessary not onely to haue the function off a Prophet but off one which vvas especially noted and marked owt by the scripture SecoÌ„dly where he saith that if they had asked Iohn whether he had bene a Prophet he would not haue denied it and addeth for proofe theroff our Sauiour Christ saied he was one he is abused for our Sauiour saying that he vvas greater then a prophet and that the Prophetes endured vntill Iohns comming denieth that he vvas a Prophet and maketh his ministerie a meane function betwene the function of a Prophet and ministerie off the gospell more excellent then the first and inferior to the other If he vvould haue had a coulor off his defense he should rather haue cited his fathers saying of him which calleth him the Prophet of the highest but that could not haue serued the turne nether For that the vvorde is there taken generally for those which teach the will off God which is often as hath bene shewed Yowr third exception that all the functions are not reckened vpp becawse they aske him not whether he was a Priest or Leuite is as vaine as the rest for therfore they aske him not becawse he tawght not being consecrated vnto any of them according to the ecclesiasticall order prouided in that behalf and that vvas one occasion off this embassadge vnto Iohn Last off all where in the margent he saith that the Pharises made false argumentes and that I doo the same he speaketh vnaduisedly for howsoeuer there was otherwise great ignorance in them yet that their reason vvas good herin it appeareth by that S. Iohn to proue his ministerie lawfull browght testimonie theroff owt off the scripture and for that our Sauiour Christ meaning to confirme the ministerie off Iohn asketh whether it were from heauen or off men In vvhich wordes condemning all ministeries vvhich men institute and that come not from heauen he confirmeth the Parises argument vvhich vvas that Iohn exercising a mynisterie not ordeined by the law should haue bene gilty of breach of the law if he could not haue shewed some extraordinarie vocatioÌ„ Thus appeareth that there vvas both bead and foot in this argumeÌ„t and that by all likelyhood true vvhich he could not impugne but by vntruth The 8. and 9. diuis vvhich follow haue as commonly the rest nothing but bare sayinges which becawse I shall meet withall againe I vvill heere passe ouer â–ª onely in the eight yt ys to be noted that he saith it is seruile to tie the church off Christ to the patrone off the Iewes Synagoge Wherin ether he saith nothing or he would haue vnderstanded more then he dare veter For if he meane that the church of Christ may not be in all ordinances and ceremonies coÌ„formable to that off the Iewes it maketh nothing to the pourpose but if he meane that the church hath now more libertie in adding ministeries then the Iewes had as his answer to that I set downe doth require then I see no cawse vvhy he should not haue so saied But that although he would say yet he durst not and therfore spaâ—â— thus vncertenly that vvheÌ„ I should shew the coÌ„trary he in this generall speach might haue some corner to hide him in Seing I must needes proue that the crow is blacke that is to say tharchbishoprick a new ministerie thus yt is proued That which hath diuers efficient cawses is an other and diuers but there are diuers efficient cawses off the ministerie off tharchbishop and those expressed in the word off god That there are diuers efficient cawses is manifest for that the office off Bishop Elder and Deacon being by God him self the office off tharchbishop was deuised and browght in by man And although this be proof enough to them that haue their senses exercised in the holy scripture where in the ministerie oftentimes they are called straungers which haue not their offices limited by the prescript off Gods word yet that it may appeare how litle modestie there is in this strong deniall
much a minister bestowethe in a vocation which is not his so muche he leaueth his owne and therby manifest that in altering the wordes I kepte the sense And so yt still fallethowte that my falsifying which the Answ penne doothe so willingly runne vpon is nether with any aduantage to my cause nor disaduantage vnto his The two nexte sections I let passe as hauing no matter off answer What attendance the prelatship off the Garter requireth and what absence from a Bishops charge being a thinge in the knowledge off all I leaue whether he hathe manifestly peruerted the wordes off the Admonition which here he denieth the bookes off bothe sydes are vvitnes His slaunders first we take a waie the princes authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall persons then we woulde giue to vnderstande that he maketh yt in her maiestyes power to minister the worde and Sacramentes still confirme his shameles impudencie of the one there is no syllable that can be pulled that waies The wordes of which he would vvreste the other be yt is not lavvfull to take those vvhich god hathe appointed to the mynistry to applie to other vses there mentioned Which because yt falleth into the question off residence before handled and into that bearing cyuill office by the Ecclesiasticall person herafter God willing to be disputed the resolution ys to be taken from those places Where in the laste dyuision he calleth vppon my answer to the tytles off Lordes grace c. beside that he hathe nothing but bare sayinges withowte shewinge forthe any matter he hathe answer Thus after large promises off shewing the greate antiquitie off thes names that they were not onely in the Councell off Nice but are manifestly to be founde in all stories and writers before the councell off Nice after highe wordes againste those which denie the pretended antiquitie after rifling and ruffling vp euerie darcke corner where thes greate and glorious names might be hidden after hell yt self hath bene moued and sommoned to witnes of this antiquitie yt is manifest that thes names nor no one of them hathe hetherto bene shewed in any one Councell writer or storie before the Councell of Nice and then onely the name Metropolitane which by the Answ owne account was abowt the yeare 330. yt ys manifest also that the names Archbishop archdeacon Primate c. be not shewed owte off any ether Councell storie c. before Epiphanius time vvhich vvas aboute the yeare 380. and so manifeste that thes names being not founde in moste aunciente monumentes could not haue their allowance what approbacion they haue had sythens they came into the church I leaue yt to be estemed partly off that which hathe bene and partly off that which shall be God willing alledged â–ª being bent as well against the office as name off archbishop Which I therfore forbeare to set downe here leste I shoulde be compelled to repeate them againe Caput 3 Diuis 1. THat the reader maie haue clearer light to iudge of our writinges on both sydes in the rest off this controuersie and that we may be better furnished of weapons againste this greate leuie off pretended autorities two questions seeme necessarie to be decided before we come vnto them The one whether the worde off God hathe ordeined that in euery seuerall congreation there shoulde be a bishop which the Answ dothe flatly denie and further saith yt appeareth owte off certeine ecclesiasticall writers and the exampels off Timothe and Titus that the Apostels appointed bishops onely in principal townes and cities The other is whether there were allowed in one citie 2. or moe bishops which likewise he flatly denieth can be shewed to haue bene from Christâ—â— time and that the whole practise off the prymitiue churche is againste yt Yf thes thinges be shewed to haue bene ordeined off the Apostels yt muste folowe that this institution off God banished by Satan owght to be called home an that all autoritie off men and coustome exalted againste this must yealde theÌ„ selues prisoners Likewise if these be shewed the trwthe of expositioÌ„ of the testimonies of the moste aunciente writers shall better appeare vvherby we haue shute the bishoplike autoritie in the circuite aÌ„d roundell of one church which the Ans would haue extended vnto a realme or diocese And so shall come to pas that they which hauing all their senses possessed of the coustome of thes later and corrupter times when they reade or heare off a bishop in the scripture or in the moste auncieÌ„te writers conceiue forthwith a bishop of the same mould that ours be shall a greate deale easelier correcte their error For if a bishop in the Apostels time and off their institution was the bishop off one churche onelie by all likelihood those times which folowed nexte after them kepte them neerest vnto that image whervpon will fall owte that this vsurped autoritie of bishops ouer their fellow ministers did by litle and litle encrease according to the measure of time further from that wherin thapostels liued and nearer vnto that wherin Antichrist was fully setled which thinges although they haue light enough in them selues yet to cleare this matter better there shall be God willing set downe certein testimonies of the most auncient times wherby as by certein traces the truth off thes thinges may be easelier found owt The first that euery particular church should haue her bishhop is manifest by Paul to Timothe For seing the description of a bishop which he gyueth doth agree vnto the minister of euery congregacion and nothing there required in the one which is not in the other it followeth that the minister off euery congregacion is the bishop theroff For the description agreing with euery of them the thinges described must likewise Secondly onles he doo by this description off the bishop set forth the nature off euery minister of the word in his congregation in describing the offices off the churche he hath left owt the principalest membres and was more carefull in describing the Deacons ministerie not occupied in the vvord then the preaching ministeries but that is absurd yt must follow that he vnderstood them by the name off bishop Furthermore S. Paules bishop was appointed to the same place wherunto his Deacons but his Deacons were assigned to a particular congregation as appeareth both by the vse of the scriptures aÌ„d also by that after this corruption entred that euery church had not her bishop yet it had her Deacons as is to be seen by that alledged of the Deacons off the churches off Mariotes S. Paul also there assigning the charge and care of the bishop ouer the church of God must ether gyue him charge ouer the whole bodie of the catholike church or ouer one particular congregation or of the faithfull companie of one howse but he extendeth not his charge ouer all the Catholike church for that were to make a Pope not a bishop nor restraineth him to the faithfull of one
is vnmeet to … own mynisters their Care chism ccclxiiij Hether belongeth the treatise off reaâ—ing the holy scriptures where fyrst ys shewed the vse of reading them in the church ccclxxv That reading off them is not able ordinarily to hould the people from pining ccclxiij Nether can reading of praiers or admynistration off the Sacramentes withowt preaching ccclxiiij That simple readers ordeined for pastors can not properly be called watchmen ccclxxvj That reading ys not preaching ccclxxxvij Against the phrenefie that bare reading ys better then preaching clxxxv That bare reading ys not so good as preaching ccclxxiiij not to the learned them selues ccclxxxiiij much les reading of the homilies cccxciij Which are not meet to be red in the churche openly cccxcij As are not also the Apoctypha ccxcviij especially considering their corruptions page cccc Hether perteineth the iudgement off the churches off vnlearned ministers ccclxiiij The causes off the vnlearned mynistery with vs ccclxiij ccclxv ccclxxj Ordination ORdination doth not belong to the bishop alone cclxxiiij Against the Bishop commaunding to receiue the holie goste in ordeining ccxcij Residence IN the residence off the ministers that off the Pastor is particularly handled 4. Tract page cccxxx Where our reasons are mainteined That it is the institution off God in the ould Test cccxlij In the nue cccxliiij That the calling of the church which ys also the lordes ys to that place onely cccxxxij That he owght to be resideÌ„t that therby greater loue might be wrought cccxiv That hauing better knowledg off the estate off his flock he may better doe all dueties towardes them cccxxxix That with seing the blessing off God he might be stirred to further diligence cccxlv That his flock hauing more famyliaryty might haue easier acces ibid. That he might be 〈◊〉 â—â—mple of life cccxliij Proued also by … oÌ„tinual duty off preaching Whether perteineth that treatise wherein ys shewed that yt ys conuenient yt should alwaies god before the administring of the holie Sacramentes cccxlviij Hether may be referred the comparison of the diligence of the elder Bishops in preaching dcxlvij Whether also refer the vnlawfull power of the bishop towching licences to preach wherby yt is in his will whether he will gyue the pastor leaue to preach or no coÌ„sidering that it is a necessarie dutie of the pastor and the principall cause off his residence cccxlj That he must admonish both the wicked and the godly strengthen both the weak and the strong cccxlj Comfort in temptation cccxlvij Therfore that the bare reading off the scripture is no sufficient supplie in his absence cccxliij Nether his care cccxxxij That the conscience off the pastor and contentement of the people ys no good rule off doing these duties cccxxx Nether belongeth that the pastor owght not to goe here and there to preache where he thincketh good Where ys shewed that God doeth not alwaies call to places where one may doe most good no not in the extraordinary callings muche les in the ordinary cccxxxvj That this going about to preache as yt ys assigned of the Answerer taketh away the difference betwene the pastors calling and the extraordinary functions cccxxxij That those extraordinary callinges doe not make against the pastors residence as yt is assigned off vs cccxxxj cccxxxix That they rather make for yt cccxxxij cccxxxiij cccxxxv That ordinarie deputies are ouerthrown by this residence cccliiij whether may be referred that dlxxxvj of deputies Likewise pluralities of benefices ccclvj Hether refer that absence for some causes and some conditions doe not ouerthrow resideÌ„ce cccliij This ys also proued by comparison of shepardes and watchmen cccxxxvj Where ys shewed how shamefully the answerer abuseth the doctrine off Gods holy election and of final perseuerance of those whiche are once called cccxxxviij Also that by his answer the pastor after he hath admonished them need neuer come to them nor yet leaue any deputie cccxli Likewise off the eie and soule cccxlvij 〈◊〉 yt as ys precious a worke to kepe those gotten as to get otheâ—â—â—ich be in ignorance and more agreable vnto the pastors of … e. The autoritie off Councels and fathers cccxxxiiij cccliiij Ecclesiasticall correction A part off that Ecclesiasticall discipline which standeth in corrections is commaunded is Math. 66. To note onely the errors corruptioÌ„s and shameful falsifyinges of the D. in suche sort as he hath pretended in my book were to make a new book But because there is much void paper I wil gyue the reader an assay onely of those conteined in the treatises which I haÌ„dle in this book And those shal be not off the capital matters betwene vs but off such as are browght to vnderset them quoted according to his own book whereby yt shal appeare that for the defence off this cause he troubleth heauen yt self and in earth ouerthroweth both estates Ciuil and Ecclesiasticall THe vvhole lavv of god generally is abrogated pa. 121. li. 39. The scripture speaketh not one vvord off preaching or baptizing priuately or openly page 89. line 6. The scripture hath not commaunded nether can yt be by necessary collection theroff gathered vvhether vve should receiue the communion clothed or naked page 24. line 21. The scripture hath appointed no discipline for the correcting off suche as shall contemn the hearing off the vvord and coÌ„mon praier page 88 line 47. He matcheth the iudiciall lavves off god gyuen vnto the Ivves vvith the Turckes lavves page 149 line 32. HE alovveth th 〈◊〉 sentence off Cyrill vvhich condemneth the iustice off g … … ishing those by aeternall death vvhich suffered corporâ—â—â—â—ath vnder the lavv page 149. line 48. He matcheth the â—ouâ—â—shing off saithe by consideration off the creatures vvith popishe imagety page 571. line 2. TO maintein the sole election off the bishop he vvould haue the free elections off magistrates in cities and Borovvgh Tovvnes taken avvay page 171. line 49. VVherby he vvill haue the forme of gouernement off the common vvealth framed vnto the form off the church vvheroff notvvithstanding and that most vntrvvly he accuseth me Likevvise that vnder the gospell there is no punishment off the body laid vpon a transgressor but that if he repent so that he may seem vvorthy to haue the punishement vvithdravvn he may finde forgiuenes page 150. line 9. No man vvhat crime soeuer he hath committed is to be secluded from any lavvful vocation if he repeÌ„t And by vocation he meaneth publike office page 146. line 23. The externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrate must be according to the kinde and form off gouernement vsed in the common vvealth pa. 389. li. 5. vvhich beside the absurditie vtterly ouerthrovveth the liberty vvhich him self pretendeth that the church hath in disposing off yt In the Apostels times yt vvas permitted to all men to preache the vvord off God page 191. li. 16. Beside Pastors there are novv vvith vs Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes page 229. line 6. ALthovvgh there vvere a sufficient nomber off able men to supply the places of the reading ministers yet the reading ministers ovvght to kepe their places still page 485. lin 5. The vvord ys as effectual red as preached Page 569. lin 23. To those vvhich vnderstand the scriptures they are as vvhot and lightsom red as preached page 573. li. 34. publike reading in the church is as solemâ—â— matter as Catechising the youth page 425. lin 43. Yt may be that some men be more aedified 〈◊〉 simple reading off the scriptures â–ª then by sermons paâ—â— â—80 li. 30. To that I say that nether homilies nor Apocrypha are to be compared ether in goodnes vvithin them selues or fruict to the hearers vvith the scripture or reading thereof he ansvvereth that that maketh against sermons as vvel as against homilies and rather against sermons then against them Page 717 li. 52. VVherby he affirmeth that homilies are both better in them selues and more fruiteful to the hearers then sermons
be the easilest caried into all other places and which abounding with knowledge off the gospell were fittest to iudge off the goodnes off the cause Wherin I doubte not but the good hande off Gods direction and the example off the Apostells haue bene considered who that they might haue fuller sheues off the seed of their doctrine preased to the chief and moother cities making their accompte that the mother being won the daughters round abowte vvould be easilier intreated And althowghe yt come to often to pas that there is some Amazias or high preist nere the courte which vseth both his eies to watche that none come thether to disquiet his vnlawfull possession yet forsomuche as it is as impossible to pull the winges off the winde that yt should not blow or shut the windowes off the heauens that they should not raine as to stop that trwth which God in his holy worde hath breathed and doeth raine by the clowdes off his mynistery I dowbt not but the voice off yt is come to the highest and shall haue that fruict in time which God hath disposed off Yf yt should not yet euery faithfull mynister is detter vnto his flocke off the whole trwth learned owt off the worde off God aswell for reioicing their heartes in encrease of knowledg as that therby they might bewail their synnes for want off yt and forthwith be stirred to continuall praier that God would encline the Princes heart and off others in autoritie to gyue yt that defence which apperteineth Nether doe we therefore call vpon the examination off our doctrine as thowgh we feared least our behauiour should be examined or as if yt resembled the Anabaptistes maner of liuing but that I might shew how disorderly the D. goeth to worck For althowgh before the Lord we and I for my part especially as myserable synners hang down our heades and couer our faces yet our behauiour throwgh his grace towching that surmised of vs ys such as we nothing fear but with all indifferent iudgement yt conteineth plentifull remedy against the sting off all suche slaunderous tonges Wise Physicions when the desease is vnknown seeke yt by owtward tokens off pulse vrine c. Yf we had nourished any night or corner doctrine which we whispering in the eares of certeine woulde not haue had come owt of the doores of our priuat houses yt should haue bene accounted to him for wisdom by signes and coniectures to haue inquired into our couert opinions But now seing we haue Fanckly and openly published our iudgementes and as yt were on the Faire and Market daies proclaimed them offering them in scholes in churches by preaching by writing not onely to the tast off the commen people but to the examination of the best learned after al this to inquire by signes and tokens is to seek his aduersary whiche standeth hard by to call for him which is present And yt is as if one to know what iudgement an other is of had rather take his mark by the colour of his coat or tag of his point then by his speache or hand writing And if it were the good will off God I would for this matter he had a window to look into our consciences To make and ende of answer to these surmises whatsoeuer is proper ether to the heresie off Papistes Anabaptistes Donatists or puritanes that wee vtterly condemne vnto the bottomles pit off hell But if amongest the filth of their herises there may be found any good thing as yt were a grain off good corn in a great deal of darnell that wee willingly receiue not as theiree but as the Iues did the holy Arke from the Philistines wherof they were vniust owners For herein yt is trw that is said the sheep must not lay dovvn her fel becavvse she seeth the vvolf somtim clothed vvith yt yea yt may come to pas that the Synaguog off Satan may haue some one thing aâ— somtime with more conuenience then the trw and Catholike churche off Christ Such was the ceremonie off powring water once onely vpon the childe in baptisme vsed with vs and in the moste reformed churches which in some age was vsed onely by those off the Eunomian heresy As for the Answerer let him remember that the iust Iudge liueth before whome if he doe not speedelie repent one day notwithstanding his gloses I accuse none I apply yt to none he muste houlde vp his hand with Satan the Prince off the accusers off the children off God wherunto I doubt not but his own conscience is his Apparitor and hath giuen him summonce And thus much for answer vnto the D. generall partly accusations and partly surmises against the fauourers off the church discipline now propounded There folow particular charges against the autors off the admonition and against me Those against them haue bene answered and the answers so far forth as they touche the cause are in this boke mainteined sauing certein new charges Wherein I dowbt not but they will take yt in good part that I vse silence seing that some of the smaller thinges are such as lie not in my knowledg and some so manifestly vntrw that they need not fear any credit to be gyuen vnto them the D. him selfe as I thinck not belieuing them Of his accusations against me because some haue eie aswel to the speakers as to the thinges spoken I trust yt shall not be greuous yf I answer somthing Especially when in this preface beside other thinges I purpose God willing to Synk nigh half his later book For if one would make suruey off reproches vntrw surmises and false accusations wherwith he hath frawght yt beside a nwe lode which he hath charged the second edition off his first boke with he should I suppose finde nigh one half spent in those wares Wherin he dealeth with me as certein beastes which pursued cast forth behinde them an vntollerable sauour therby to affray their hunters from further chasing them In deed they are very vnpleasant but the good sauour off the trwth and off honest behauiour in thinges he accuseth me off hath by the grace off God so comforted all the senses off my minde that he hath not escaped by this pollicie Some off his accusations touche the cause but the most part touche yt not Off this later kynd one sort are off my maner of liuing â–ª albeit he count yt a childishe kinde off confuting that one should leaue the cause and take him self to the person Here my ministerie is diuerslie accused as that I did not seke for the ordre off priesthood as it is called for that is that he meaneth I should haue done by othe or els departed the Colledge The answer hereto is longer then this treatise may embrace which I am readie to exhibit before him to whom it belongeth because I am prouoked I humbly desire him to receiue the cause But in a word yt ys a meer cauill For the meaning off
peoples consent owght to be in the election off their Pastor Not vnlike to this is that wherby vpon a rule brought and applied as well by other learned men as by me to the Ecclesiasticall election he would insinuate that I meant yt should be translated to the ciuill estate Where appeareth that there is no sparke off equitie in him For if the rule were giuen generally then my applying of it onely to Ecclesiasticall elections doth rather call yt from being vnderstanded off the ciuil if it be giuen of it alone then it is clere that I vsed it accordingly Beside that I haue shewed that it is far otherwise in the ciuill then in the Ecclesiasticall gouernement and that thinges vnlawful in one are notwithstanding lawful in the other But thus must I restore that I neuer toke and be accused off thinges vvhich I not onely neuer did but not so muche as knovv off Here also falseth an other accusation of flatterie off the people with iniurie to the magistrate Where him selfe gyueth me at least this testimonie that I haue bene euil scholed in that craft which haue chosen masters that can do so litle for me Yf the state off our commen wealth had bene suche as wherin the people had born the sway his accusation vntrw should yet haue had some colour off trwth An other accusation is off wrong in not setting downe his boke as one looth it should be compared and for fear my corrupt dealing should appear But this accusation lieth against the most part of learned men which hauing confuted aduersaries off the trwth haue not onely not set downe there bokes but not giuen their readers so particular addres for conference as I did Here therfore ether let him absolue me or condemn me with them That I did yt not in suche respect as he saith I haue protested the truth wheroff shall now appear And withall that notwithstanding his setting downe let the reader iudge whither he vseth as he saith off me friuolous replies childish collections fraudulent deprauing off my boke Beside that he hath passed by diuers reasons off mine vntowched yea and as shal God willing hereafter appeare guilfully left out of his own boke in one or two places And because I am entred into his dealing hauing bene tied now full two yeares to turn this stone of his writinges it wil not be amis to admonish of some of his practises wherby the reader may the better know how to turn himself in them ether present or to come if he kepe on the some course In the reste therfore off his boke beside reproches furmises c one part is spent in naked affirmacions withowt proof vented often by questions etherfond or from the purpose and in dry testimonies off men both which are as other his furniture repeated and that sometimes again and again That where the Cuckow trobleth but once a year he with his vntunable repetitions off one thing to the same purpose trobleth all the year long Yet hath he euery hand while to be short In his testimonies beside that yt shall appeare that so many as make to the cause they are almost euery one ether falsified or drawen from the meaning of the autors yt is first to be obserued that to answer the places off scripture alledged yt is verie like that he first turneth to Maister Caluin if he be against him he goeth to aske fauour at other if no body answer nothing yet he bringeth sondry times euen that nothing that is to say which maketh not for him sometime also against him Secondly where in his former boke he propoundeth certein thinges as his own not able to maintein them in this he callethe for the autors assistance of whom he hath not so muche borowed them as taken them against their willes yet he counteth yt vaine glorie to take owt off an autor and to conceale his name Notwithstanding if he had knowen from whom his collections came which he vseth and had bene thankfull to his autors in that sort he saith we owght we should often haue had in the margent for Augustin Ambrose Chrysostome c. Pigghius Hosius Harding c. To let pas diuerse reasons I gaue him which he neuer thaÌ„ked me for but hideth them as well as he can by taking them vp before hand or he came to the place where I giue them Thirdly where his autoritie is nameles and goethe vnder this generall title other learned men thinck otherwise a learned man saith so haue yt for suspected off popery For that in some off those places he can haue no other autors but Papistes as I am persuaded Last off all that he doth often bately recite them vvithowt applying them to his matter or gathering his argument off them The cause vvheroff is for that they are not hable to beare any argument the vanity wherof vvould not forthewith appeare if it vvere gathered Which is manifest for as muche as vvhere any colour off argument dothe but peep there he presseth them diligently vvhich practise he vseth in his other proofes albeit he precisely reprehendeth it in the autors off the Admonition Touching the other part of that which remaineth in his boke standing ether of his reasons against our cause or answeres off the reasons against his â—in bothe yow may obserue that the prouing off that in question by that which is likewise dowbted of occupieth a great roume In his answers to mine he will often acknowledge no argument Because yt is not set down in the precise ether order off propositions or other exact form of Sillogism Which I thinck is a streighter law then any writer hetherto hath bene bound vnto yet I will not refuse it if he vvil giue me an example the matter hauing now bene so largely debated to the vnderstanding of the simpler sort Let him therfore if he dare trust his cause deal that way an other vvhile As for diuers particular faultes in his lodgick and grammer throwgh euill translation considering that they bring no preiudice to the truth in question and hurting not the vnlearneder are quickly espied off the other I am well content to hould back Thus muche to the Answerers both generall and particular accusations and surmises in suche sort aâ— I meane God willing neuer vpon any his importunity to returne vnto againe For as for that page 21. line 3. and suche other as haue manifest confutation in the places owt off vvhich they are raised they are most vnworthy the naming Hauing spoken thus muche for their causes especially which misinformed by the D. haue no good opinion of the discipline now propounded yt remaineth to say something for theirs vvhiche acknowledging yt for the trwth off God doe not stretch forth their handes to bring yt in or at the least not with that endeuour which owght to be Wherin yt seemeth they doe not so fully consider that before alledged of the vse of the discipline the same in the churche that the
treatise off the apparel I haue passed by the causes vvherof assigned by me if they shall not be approued by those to vvhose iudgemeÌ„t I submit my selfe vpon significatioÌ„ off their minde in that behalf I vvill resume yt again in that place vvhere I shall handle the conuenience and inconuenience off the ceremonies off the church vnto vvhich place I vvish I had reserued the most part off that Tractat vvhich in my book ys the first The learned reader I desire that vvhere â— confute some thinges vnvvorthy in his iudgement to be mentioned he vvould gyue that to those that are not so vvel aduaunced Althovvgh I confes that off a nomber off them the consultation vvhether any vvere so rude as not to perceiue them vvithovvt helpe stood me in more then the confutation The reader that vnvvillingly readeth the controuersies betvvene those off the same profession in doctrine I trust shall not lose his trauail if he desire to be confirmed against the errors off the papistes the same in many places vvith the Ansvverers Off all I desire both learned and others that they vvould support my vveaknes vvheresoeuer and in vvhat sort so euer yt shall appear seing I trust it shall be manifest vnto them that in a good cause I haue laboured also to kepe a good conscience For better vnderstanding of the book after yovv are a litle entred yovv shall vvhere I remembred yt finde the doctor althovvgh not alvvaies in so many vvordes â–ª yet in the same sense in a smaller letter the testimonies and that alledged out off my former book and admonition being in a greater Sometimes throvvgh his to muche fondnes and repetition I put onely a vvord or tvvo to gyue the reader to vnderstand that I vvander not vvithovvt an aduersary referring him for further knovvledge vnto his ovvn book vvhen I refer yovv for any place ether of my former or els off both his a fevv excepted in the beginning I folovv his later book vvhere all these bookes be Of faultes escaped in the printing some are suche as ether ouerthrovv the vvhole sense corrupt yt or that othervvise may greatly hinder yovv VVhich I haue set apart from the rest desiring yovv to vouchsafe to correct them especially vvith your pen considering that yt is but a small labor to yovv in one book vvhich vvould haue bene infinite to me in all Fare vvel gentle reader and if thovv take any profit off my labors remember me in thy praiers vnto the lord for his assistance in the rest off my life and namely for that vvhich remaineth of ansvver vnto the D. book The faultes most necessary to be corrected Page 15. lin 8. put owt priestes and. and l. 14. put owt either priestes or pag. 31. lin 26. read is not asword pag. 57. lin 11. read with the contrary of that sentence pag. 66. lin 22. put owt against pag. 84. stat R flat pag 152. lin 9. put owt suche pag. 164. lin â–ª 26. yet R. yea pag. 170. lin 31. for the second inuisible R. visible pag. 173. lin 31 R. faithfulnes pag. 191. lin 23. in the margent R. 2. Coun. pag. 211. li. 8. put owt they pag. 252. lin 26. for decree R. they decreed pag. 261 lin 20. pastors R. people pa 266. lin 32. R. for if the. pa. 273. lin 34. in certein copies For those alledged Titus to proue Timothy and read those alledged to proue that Timothy and Titus did pag. 296. lin 26. R. Euangelistes and pastors pag. 368. li. 16. giftes R. vices pag. 390. li. 16 put owt but. pag. 402. lin 16. R. inconuenient pag. 440 lin 5. this R. there is pag. 441. li. 9. put for as where as and lin 12. R. and in not pag. 443. lin 2. obteined R. obserued pa. 499. lin 22 after the word before ad yt appointeth pag. 516. lin 19. for bishops R. elders pag. 553. li. 2. put out belike suche as ours Other faultes vvhich may somevvhat stay the Reader Page 9. line 6. put owt and pag. 11. li. 15. saith R. faith page 18. li. 35. one read owne page 19 li. 25 R procedeth page 21. li. 19. R. Vincentius page 23. li. 6. they R. there page 31. li. 2. R. spake page 33. in the margent put owt Ierome Tom. 3. praeface in Iob. page 37. li. 11. R. bouldnes page 41. li. 5. R. suspition page 42. li. 21. R. not to come page 46. in the margent R. implicita pa. 46. li. 30. R. members page 49. l. 14. for R. of page 50. li 21. R. magnifie pa. 51. li. 11. there al R the real page 52. li. 29. put owt the page 53 li. 9. R. that a man li. 11. R. and not onely page 55. li. 36. R â–ª herewith page 61. li. 25. diuis 7. R. 5 page 64. li. 28. R not note pag. 77. li. 18. R. Ancyran li. 21. put owt is page 94. li. 16. R. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 page 96. li. 31. R. remnantes page 106. li. 4. R. snatcher page 108. li. 35. this R. thus page 112. li. 18. R. tel me now page 116. li. 19. put owt yet page 131. li. 26. R. poore page 133. li 26. R self pa. 145 li. 8. R. answerer li. 8. be R. he page 146. li. 24. R. soundnes of doctrine page 148. l. 36. R. not page 151. li. 6. R. gift l. 29. R. abilitie page 194. l. 8. put owt the figure of twelue page 211. li. 23. M. R maister page 225. li. 20. R. I haue page 233. li. 3. if R. yt page 234 li. 35. in the magent R. â—75 page 238. li. 13. R. was then page 247. li. 8 R. the whole page 265. li. 19. R. fauouring page 259. li. 24. R. yow might page 281. li. 15 put owt and page 293 li. 20. R ministery page 302. li. 11. R title page 316. li. 13. he R. be li. 7. R. moste page 334. li. 37. R. with page 337. li. 18. R. yt is in an page 341. li. 29. be R. he page 351. li. 35. R. are in the li. 36 are R. of page 364 li 30 R seauen yeare page 373. l 21. R. reading li. 28. R. dealing page 380. li 24 in the margent R. 572. page 394. li. 13 yt R. yet page 405. li. 29. R. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 page 457 li 36 for the second there R. his page 460. li. 32 R. in that page 478. li 20. R. for him page 485. li. 12. R. weigh page 492 li. 1. put owt which page 494. li. 18. R. title page 504. li. 24. R. chew wordes page 503. li. 12. 17 29. 33. R Sozomene page 508 â–ª li. 29. R. fondly page 534 li. 29. R. had said page 536. li. 1. R. doen page 562. li. 34 R. peece page 565. li. 29 their R. other li. 33. for other R. their page 566. l. 16 R. with page 570. li. 9. in the margent R. aduersus page 581. li. 30 R. scambling page 585. li 8 is R as The ansvver vnto the doctors praeface entitled to
the godly reader TO all here in controuersie coÌ„sidering they are barely said without proof yf they be affirmations one yea yf they be denials one nae shall be enowgh seing they are all handled at large in this book Except that off ceremonies vsed in popery wheroff how vntrwly he speaketh when he saith that the reiecting off them standeth vpon this that we may not vse in any wise or in any consideration reteined in the church any thing that hath bene abused vnder the Pope both hath manifestly in my former book and further shall God willing in the later part off my reply appear Answer to his two Tables wheroff the first is intitled off daungerous pointes off doctrine the other off vntrwthes and falsified autorities conteined in my reply AFter I had ended my book and was entred vpon the preface I receiued a treatise called An examination off M. Doctor VVhitgiftes censures conteined in tvvo Tables set before his book intituled the defence of the ansvver to the admoni Wherof as I was glad for the truthes safe which shall receiue strenght by yt so I was sory that I receiued yt no sooner for that it might both haue cased me off muche labor and haue serued me for a good direction in those places which might seem to require a larger defence then the shortnes yt foloweth would receiue And as those off the churche which acknowledg this trwth so I especially for whose support I take yt was written hartely thanck the autor and desire the reader to vse yt for a supply where my answer doeth not satisfy him Whiche answers off myne so far as I haue hetherto gone he shall finde after this sort In the firste Table The first Article becawse yt was not lincked with any particuler cause in controuersie I pourposed to answer in this place but now I will rest in the answer which is made The 2. is answered page xlij line 33. The 3. is answered page xlv line 17. The 4 page liij li. 20. The 5. page lxxxix li. 14. The 6. page xcv l. 29. The 7. page ccxlij li. 21. For the 8. I refer my self to the foresaid treatise especially considering that I haue passed by that whole Tractate The 9. is answered page ccccxlviij lin 6. The 14. page ccclj li. 28. The 15. page ccclxxiij li. 37. In the second Table The first is answered page viij li. 22. The 2. page ix li. 26. The 3. page lxij li. 21. The 4. page lxxxij lin 37. The 5. page xcj. li. 4. The 6. page clx ij l. 29. The 7. page cxcj li 1. In the 8. that part touching subtil suppression is answered page cclij li. 12 the other lieth vpon Illiricus whom I named the autor off that report yf yt be not in the Code The 9. is answered page cclv li. 16. The 10. page cclvj li. 27. The 11. page cclxxvj li. 27. The 12. and 17. page cclxxvij li. 17. The 13. page cclxxx li. 12. The 14. page cclxxxj li. 4. The 15. page cclxxxij li. 7. The 16. page ccc li. 33. The 18 pa. cclxâ—x li. 34. To the 19. and 20. I answer as to the 8. off the first table The 22. is answered page cccclxxxj li. 18. The 22. ccccxxxvj li. 12. The 23. page ccccxciij li. 33. The 24. page diiij li. 1. The 25. pa. dxij li 28. The 26. page dxxxiiij li. 11. The 27. dlxx li. 15. The 28. page dcxxv li. 26. The 29. page dcxxvj li. 36. The 30. page dcxv li. 4. The 31. page dcxxvij li. 29. The 32. is answered before in the Epistle The 33. page dcxlj li. 13. The 34. page dcxliij li. 33. The 35. page dcxlv li. 1. The 36. page dxxiij li. 5. The 37. page dcliiij li. 1. The rest in both the tables remain to be answered in the second part off my reply The replye vnto the answer pag. j. c. FOr the foure fyrst sectyons being either false accusations bare repetitions off my wordes or profes off thinges which I haue set downe and confesse I will not answer His fifte section answerethe not any thinge to diuers reasons which I haue set downe to proue that this cause can not be charged with disorder whose whole worke is that nothing be donne owte off place owte off tyme besides the boundes off euerie one His seuerall callinge in the 6. sectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing doothe gwilfully passe by the reason which I haue alledged why this doctine which we mainteine can not be thowght enemy vnto princes seing yt was a freende to princes when princes where enemies vnto it For him selfe can not denie but the gouernement by elders the choise off the ministers by the churche the moste off those thinges which he especially supposeth to haue warre with the ciuile magistrate and are in controuersie betweene vs were in the tymes off the Apostells when they being troden vnder feete off the ciuile Magistrate did neuer lifte vpp their heele againste his power And where he saithe it is no plaine dealing to drawe that to this cause which is trewly spoken off the gospell he needed not to haue charged vs with wante of plaine dealing seing we offer to shew the discipline to be a parte off the gospell and therfore to haue a comon cause so that in the repulse of the discipline the gospell receiueth a checke That the discipline off the church is not in the nomber of those thinges which are varyed is disputed in the second tractate and in her seueral partes thorowe out the whole booke That the distinction off the common welthe and the churche hathe bene and owght to be kepte of al men which haue spokeÌ„ or written with any Iudgement shall be shewed in the 20. Tractate and therfore althowghe the answerer doo a 100. tymes repeete this thinge in bare affirmacions yet the reader shall once for all looke for the answer off thes thinges in those places In his 8. section page 1. he speaketh off the authoritie off the magistrate vppon no occasion to no purpose with greate wordes with no proofe Then as thowghe I had written in vnknowne figures as the priestes of Aegypte he complaineth of my obscuritie and that he can not vnderstande what I meane wheras I coulde hardely haue vsed greater light of speache if I had bente my selfe therunto For I proue the singuler benefite that the discipline bringeth to the comon welthe for that by the Ecclesiasticall censures off admonition reprehension suspension c. the lesser faultes off lying vncomely iesting and cholericke speaking being met with all the passage is stopped againste the greater faultes off thefte adultery and murder Wherin obserue his vnfaithfull dealing which feining him selfe not to vnderstande that which my wordes doo fullie sounde doothe notwithstanding forge thinges off me wheroff there is not the smallest ynkling For here vppon he asketh whether I thinke not the punishemet of thefte and murther sharpe enowghe with diuers other which folow vnto all
abowt to make men beleue that I haue some thinge that I would not haue men vnderstand And althoughe he confesse he vnderstand it not yet he reprehendeth it and so it commeth to him which S. Iude chargethe the false teachers withe in his tyme that he speaketh euill off that he knoweth not He asketh here for examples and they stick still in his throate vnswalowed and vndigested whiche the admonition gaue him when he hathe ouercome those then let him aske for more examples And wheras he ascribethe as a great absurditie to vs that we make the order off chusinge the minister before the eldershipp and gouernment be established somewhat diuerse from that which is before putting this florishe vppon it that we allowe off all thinges owt off order thoughe against our owne order so it be against common order I will not goo abowte to confute that here or to shew what good cause there is off this diuersitie it being sufficiently declared in that booke whiche togither withe the right forme off gouernment commaunded owt off the worde off god notethe the disorders off our churche onelie I will aske M. D. whether the consecration as it is called off the Archbishops and Bishopps at the first entrie off the Queenes maiestie vvas the same altogither vvithe that vvhiche hathe bene sithens And iff there were a difference betwene that and this then in this great desire off his to stricke he care not how nor after What sorte his strooke is fallen vppon him selffe and vpon those whom he vndertaketh to defend That the wordes off the admonition haue not that sense which is here ascribed vnto yt I haue shewed in the proper place neither will I touche it here althoughe the A. set it twentie tymes before me Yff he haue any thing to saye against that whiche I haue said there it shall be considered Althoughe here the D. was taken eueÌ„ in the verie acte of false coyninge yet he shameth not to denie yt and withe that bloudnes and foreheade that he is readie also to accuse him that taketh him withe the manner He biddeth me peruse more diligentlie the wordes off M. Bullingar I haue perused them and set them downe first in latin and then in Englishe and iff I haue not turned them truelye shew wherin I haue faulted and iff they be truelie turned then I demaunde againe where these wordes be founde in any of those leaues of Bullinger whiche yow quote That they could not teache truelie because they had great liuinges Yow saye they be word for word there shew but the same sense or meaninge that is to saye that this off M. Bullingers that the Anabaptistes said they could not teache the truthe vvhiche had any liuinge is all one withe that whiche yow haue set downe that they can not teache the truthe which haue great liuinges And iff yow can not shew it your falsification remaineth increased withe the open facing of an vntruthe In deede if yow can put owt all men eyes aÌ„d take away froÌ„ vs our senses and all light off grammer and off the knowledge off signification and proprietie off wordes it will not be impossible for yow withe suche confident speaches as yow vse to make vs beleue that all is turned vpside downe and that the earth hangeth ouer our heades and the heauens are vnderneath our feete but yow deceiue your selffe if yow thincke that yovve can beare downe the truthe so or that yow can hide falshoode by adding another vnto yt wherby it is made bigger and more easie to be sene then before The place added owt off M. Zuinglius Ecclesiastes maketh nothing to the saluinge off your falshoode and how farre our men as it pleasethe yow to call them are farre from all suche sayinges I haue before declared Yff yow shew as yow saye that I do giue to litle vnto the magistrate I will confesse my faulte and confesse my felse detter vnto yow for yt As for the cleanelines off my termes which I vse they are not so foule as the thinges wherunto they are applied and the prophet Malachy and S. Paule vsed them in honester matters then these are so that iff the phrase off the Apostles and Prophetes be manerly enoughe there is lesse godlinesse in yow which in me houe thus accused them off inciuilitie Vnto the nexte section pag. 40. I answere not To the 44. sect pag. 41. I graunt the corruptions off the churche of England to be suche that man in absteininge from the pollutions theroff owght not so seuer him selfe from those open assemblies wherein the eternall worde off the Lorde God is preached and the Sacramentes administred althoughe not in that puritie which they owght to be But I saye againe that the name off conuenticles is to light and conteÌ„ptuous for those meetiÌ„ges For here in is to be coÌ„sidered for what cause they departed Which was not for the mis likinge off any thinge which Christ ordeyned but throughe the mislike off that which Antechrist had browght in not as the Anabaptistes did and the D. surmiseth they did for that they iudged them selues pure and others vnpure but that they feared that their presence where suche corruptions were should be allowance or confirmation off them not so muche forthe hatred off the estate off the churche off England as forthe loue that they had to a better nor so muche for the hatred off the Ministers whiche were vniustly set ouer them as for the loue off those which were vnlawfullie by the Bishoppes taken from them Thedorete declareth how the Catholikes which mainteined the faithe of the Nicenc councell throughe affectioÌ„ to their teachers deuided and seuered them selues into seuerall coÌ„paines will the. A. faie that all their meetinges were conuenticles iff he do he speakethe farre otherwise off them then Theodorete and yet that diuision continued 86. yeares And iff this be off no authoritie whith yow yet I would gladlie vnderstande what yow vvill answere to the sentence off M. Caluin which yow haue alleadged your selffe pag. â—1 where he saithe This honor is meete to be giueÌ„ to the vvorde off god and to the Sacramentes that vvhersoeuer vve see the vvorde off God truelie preached and the Sacraments vvithovvt superstition Ministred there vve maye conclude vvithovvt all controuersie the church to be Iff this meeting withe some disorder be the church off god how is it a conuenticle Besides that it ought to haue bene considered off yow whether they continued in that diuision and whether being taught and shewed their error they did obstinatelie perseuer according to whiche circunstance that off Augustine owght to be expounded for not euerie one which departethe for any cause whatsoeuer from that vvhiche is the churche off God by and by is to be accoumpted no membre of the churche For seing that heresie is more heynous then a scisme and yet heresie dothe not cut a man from the churche onlesse he remaine obstinate muche lesse can a scisme cause forthwith
men beare witnes that bothe here and almoste euery where yow wringe my wordes clean contrary to my meaninge and therin I am well contente the Iudgemente remain with the reader And althowghe I am fully perswaded that ther was no occasion taken off euill by this doctrine yet if any weare it beinge the doctrine of the holy Goste whoso euer hathe taken occasion of euill hathe without repentance borne his punishemente and so shall yowe moste assuredly in that daye wherin the mouthe off wickednes shall be stopped Yt maie not be passed by that he in the begininge of the firste of thes sections matched the lawes off the Iewes whiche were the lawes gyuen by God him selfe vvithe the lawes of the moste barbarous and Prophane Tyrant that euer was suche is the reuerece he beareth to the lawes of god Note also that where I saie that I vvill ioyne vvithe him that the transgressions off the lavve vnder the gospell are to be seuerelyer punished then they vvere vnder the lavve He in pretendinge and makinge a brage that he woulde ioyne slyppethe me clean a syde and saythe that he will ioyne withe me that the magistrate is not bounde to the iudiciall lawe off Moses for the manner off punishinge as thowghe that were any thinge like that whiche I propounded And in that he answerethe no one worde to the two reasons whiche I alledged that is to saye for that bothe the knovvledge off the lavve is greater novve then thē and other gyftes off the spirite off God vvherby the lavve shoulde be better kepte more aboundantly povvred oute novve then then he dothe not onely slyppe a side but turnethe his blinde partes towardes me Nowe to returne backe to the Diuis pag. 123. I leaue to the iudgement off the reader howe importunate an aduersarie the D. is vvhich requireth answer of that which hath been so often answered In the next Diuis p. 124. seeking to mainteine his logicke in diuiding and defining he maketh him selffe pytifull to all that euer saluted that scoole For what an absurd saying is yt that becawse the definition off a generall thing agreeth vnto his particular therfore yt is the definition off the particular As though euery thing vvhich vvere verefied of an other were by and by the definition off it or as thoughe the same coulde be the definition of the generall and of the speciall And what a miserable defence of his diuisiō is yt which to proue that his three last partes are not conteined vnder the first alledgeth that they are not all one with the first But as I promised I will leaue this to the learned reader that I leese not the tyme in confuting off these tryfles The rest off his section is answered before In the next beside the sentence which I denie and he vntruly fathereth off Zuing. that in Ceremonies thinges are to be vsed in the church which are not conteined in the scriptures ▪ There is nothing which maketh any thing vnto the questiō For where he saieth that I mislike that of Zuing. If they be not repugnant to the vvord I haue tould him before that I neuer found fault with that but becawse he condēned the Ad. which will haue thē caste in the mould off the word off god And as for Maister Bezaes sentence repeted here off discipline left in the order off the church and that some thinges doon off the Apostles are not alvvaies to be follovved off vs whereby it seemed the D. would make the reader belieue that he meaneth this off the pointes of discipline nowe debated yff I should herein charge him with vntrue dealing vppon Maister Bezaes booke off epist. Which declareth in so many places and wordes that there is a Discipline off God left vnto his churche vnchangeable and precisely determined in the word off God and howe he maketh the partes thereoff the same which the D. fighteth against with might and maine he would paraduenture saie that he could take no notice off that which was not yet brought to light But when the same booke from whence he drewe thes outorities mainteneth those partes off discipline towching the Eldershipp the consent off the church in Eccesiasticall elections the right institution off Deacons c. as necessarye which he will haue arbitrarie he owght to haue vnderstanded that those thinges which M. Beza noteth vnder the name off Discipline left at the order off the church are nothing lesse then these which he would insinuate Which he might yet easelier haue vnderstanded by the place which he alledgeth out off the Corinthes that leaueth yt not in the churches power ether who shall gouerne or what they ought to doo which must gouerne but howe that gouernement which is prescribed may be vsed most decently in regard off circumstance off time c. For euen in that place the Apostle defining off certen pointes of discipline as that vvemen ought not to speake in the church c. declared sufficiently that he ment not to leaue the gouernement off the church in her owne disposition and order But what M. Beza ment by this arbitrarie Discipline yt shall yet better appeare in the next tractate off the Election off the church where this here spoken generally shall there belaied open by example the reste off this Diuis is answered In the next Diuis I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader whether I haue truly gathered off his wordes As for the defense he maketh to proue Truly and Purely all one for so he must if he mainteine his answer the first reason he bringeth that a man may preache true thinges and not truly is cleane ouerthrowne by his owne answ for to ouerthrowe that which he falsely attributeth vnto the Adm. that the word is not truly preached becawse the Ministers are not duely called he saithe that the reason is not Good becawse ho we wicked soeuer the man be which preacheth yet he may preache the true word off God. Here ether the Ans must make to preache true thinges and to preache truly all one or els he hath not answered to the argument he supposeth the Adm. to vse The other is for that S. Paul vseth these wordes in truthe for syncerely Wherein beside the former fault which is the contrarietie with him selfe he should haue learned that that maner off speach is taken off the Ebrues which as they call a lie not onely that which is spokē but that which is doon or imagined against the truthe so likewise contrary Which maner off speach not being receiued in our tounge is fondly and out off time pretended considering also that the translatiōs in our tounge as in others haue shunned that phrase as that which they could not reache vnto Tract 2. and 3. according to the D. Off election of the minister Cap. 1. Diuis 1. Off the Tryall off ministers in learning and conuersation THe replie standeth vpon the certeine and vnfallible grounde off the worde off God which is that the
churche owght not to put forwarde any to the holy Ministery without good tryal off his sufficientie Then yt is vpholden off the wordes off the texte that twoo were set vpp and caused to stand before the congregation For after that sainct Peter had declared what maner off man he owght to bee which should fill vp the voide place off Iudas immediatly S. Luke sheweth that twoo were put vpp as if he shoulde saye consider whether thes he suche or no as ought to chosen and which agree with that which is required off him that must supplye this place The reason wheroff was for that all the men which where in the churche at that time were not capable off that function hauing by no lykelyhood bene with our sauiour Christe continually from the begininge off his preaching vntill the day off his ascension And vnles that S. Peter mente to subiect those vnto the tryall off the churche which were to be chosen why instructed he the churche and gaue a rule to seuer and trie them by After the churche agreed eyther by voice or by silence that they were suche as behoued S. Peter wente forwarde and conceiued a praier as followethe there in the texte And that this is the plaine and naturall order off that action he that hathe but one eye may easely see The scripture is shorte and in a few wordes comprehendeth many thinges and touchinge certein pointes off a storie leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader sometimes which was doone before by expressing that which was doone after other sometimes that which is doone after by expressing that which was doone before Whereoff yff neede were yt is not harde to shew diuers examples And theroff is that sentence so often vsed off the Hebrew Doctours 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Scripture stayeth yt selfe vpon or presumeth an vnderstanding reader withowt the vvhiche yt shall seme very vnsufficient that ys most perfect and vvithowt the which a greate portion off the vvorde of God ys loste And vvhere as yow saye that yt is certaine that there was no tryall because they were sufficiently knowne first yt appeareth not by any wordes in the texte that they were sufficiently knowē And considering that as yt comethe comōly to passe in a persequuted churche there were by al likelihood some lately come to the church they might be well vnknowne to thē althowghe they vvere well knowne to others Thē the questiō is not whether they vvere examined or no but vvether they vvere set vpp to be tried so that iff there vvere a proferr off tryall althowghe no tryall folowed the place ys aptly alledged For albeit they were knowne to the vvhole companie so that there needed no inquirie into their behauiour or other thinges vvhiche are in the compas off the churche to iudge of yet that ys no cause why they shoulde not be offered to the examinaciō Nether is yt reason that the knowne habylytie off some one or twoo shoulde breake an ordinary lawe in the churche off god And yow that haue serued your selfe more thē once or twyce vvithowt cause as shall appeare off the manner of ciuill elections to ouerthrowe the Ecclesiasticall might here by the consideration off them haue bene delyuered from this abusinge off yowr selfe and others Yow knowe in the election off followes and scolers where the lawe commaundethe an examination before the election althowghe the parties to be chosen be neuer so sufficient and there sufficientie neuer so well knowne to all to vvhō the choise belongethe yet the offer of themselues to be examined is so necessary that if that be not they cā by no meanes be chosen If therfore mans lawe in suche small elections hath suche force that yt will giue place to no mans excellencye or singularitie how muche more owght the lawe of God vvhich byddethe generally vvithout exception that they shoulde be tryed vvhich are promoted to the ministery in so greate and weighty an election to kepe her force Where yow say ther was no other cause off presenting them then that which is expressed in the text tell me what cause is expressed off presentinge them in the congregation surely none that I reade those two which I alledged in my replie are gathered but none is expressed So that yf there vvere no other cause off there presenting then that vvhich is expressed there shoulde be none at all and that action off the Apostles should be to no purpose What expresse wordes are there in the texte contrary to this tryall or at the lest offer off triall the vvordes shoulde haue bene noted the meaning shoulde haue bene beaten owte where vve neede your helpe there you forsake vs vvhere the meaning is cleare and vvithout controuersie there you trouble your selfe and vs boothe Yf yt be a rule to be folowed yt must be followed wholy saith the answere This is very definitiuely and magistrally said and being a dangerous error as that vvhich tendeth to the ouerthrowe of the cheifest heads of Christian religion is notwithstanding farced with scoffing questions in derision off the truthe I neuer learned nor I doo not vse to add or take away from the word off God I expounde the scripture and gather off it vvhich is not to add and in saying that something is not to be follovved off vs I take nothing away for I confesse yt to be so as the storie reporteh And althoughe that parte be no example to follow yet euen now and to the ende yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine But if I take away from the scripture because I say that some Parte of that action is not to be follovved you do muche more that saye nothing theroff ys to be followed I distinguishe beweēne that which was for a tyme and that which is perpetual and to distinguishe is not to dismember Al the reuelations I haue are owt off the reueled worde off God I knowe that this parte off this action touching the examination ys to be followed because yt is confermed by other places off the scripture thother not so for that yt hathe not the like confirmacion This spirite off slumber whearwithe the lorde hathe striken yowe in that yowe say that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be obserued wholely shall better appeare when I come to yower answer of that which is writen in the 51. and 112. pages of my former booke where this is handled No doubte saith he this is an extraordinary example As Archidamus said to his son̄e beinge to venterowse and boldhardy either put to more strēght or take avvaie some of this courage so I must admonishe yow that either yow woulde come stronger withe argumētes or els goo softlier to thes doctoral determinatiōs Is yt without all doubte that all thinges are here extraordinary nothing of necessitie to be followed For so yow say when yow will not haue yt followed in other parte because some one is not to be followed What is yt not necessary
Thes differences woulde haue serued yow as well as those and possiblie yf they had taken yow in the heade yowe woulde neuer haue let them goe withowt giuing some tribute to the lengthening off your boke But in all this diuersitie yow recken vp there is a perpetual harmonie againste the election made by one bishope againste the ambition off the elder which thrusteth owte his fellowe elders against the church robbers especially which bende ther force to spoile the people of ther consente in election off their ministers Yf yowe had shewed any diuersitie in this yow mighte haue helped your cause somewhat To those which are bleare eide one light semeth two and ther fore to M. D. which hathe the eie sight off his minde scattered they seme to differ which agree well together I well remembred what I wrote and yt hathe not the weighte off a feether to ouertourne the election off the minister by the people For yt followethe not because one deacon is inferior to the pastor therfore the whole churche is inferior to ether the pastor or the deacon or the deacon may not chuse the pastor therfore the whole churche may not chuse him But this had bene wel concluded one deacon is inferior to the pastor therfore muche more one of the people ād one decon can not chuse a pastor therfore muche lesse one off the people Which mighte haue bene casely considered by proportion off the bodye which S. Paule dothe so often poincte owte the estate off the churche by For sett a parte the heade which is our sauiour Christe and ther is no one parte so noble or so necessarie but being compared together with all the partes off the bodie that are vnder yt it giueth place and is inferior vnto them And it may be shewed by example that they that in a societie be equall yea superior vnto any one in that societie are notwithstanding inferior to the whole Peter and Iohn were equall vnto any two in the whole colledge off the Apostels and yet they were inferiour to the whole companie off the Apostels For beinge sente off them they muste be inferiour to those that sente them and being Ambassadors from them they receiued commaundement Paul and Barnabas were by their dignitie off Apostleship superior to any whiche were in the churche off Antioche and inferior to the whole churche for the cause before alledged Furthermore wee doe not permit the choise off the pastor to the people onely but to the choise off the eldership so that althoughe the people alone shoulde not be superior vnto the pastor yet all together are which haue to doe in that election And althoughe thes thinges are so plaine that they coulde not lightly be hyddē from him that hathe but moued his lypp to the cuppe of sounde diuinitie yet maister D. standeth still amased merueiling as he that hauing stepte manie years whē he awaked thowghte al thinges straunge Thes are the knowē lawes of the howse where yow were borne where also yow vndertake professiō of Do. yt is a great fault that yow are a straūger at home The peoples examinatiō off their ministers especially standeth in their behauiour And seinge in the churche off God from him that cleaueth wood to her which grindethe in the mill ther is none so ignorant but knowe and can giue reason off principall poinctes off the Christian religion the Elders which be the flowre off the church can much lesse be so ignorant as yowe make them Naashe the Amonyte meaning to dishonour the people off God thowghte yt reproche enoughe to the Gilcades yf he mighte haue put owte their right eies and althowghe a barbarous and cruell enemie off the people off God yet woulde haue satisfied him selfe with that but yow are not cōtente with that onles yow put owte bothe their eies and leaue them as blinde and ignorant bussardes Thes reproches off ignorance so oftētimes caste vpon the people off God are not spoken with the toūge off Canaan but is the proper dialecte off the Papistes and yt is reprochefull not vnto men but vnto the sonne off God whose bodie the churche is and whereoff he is the heade The prophet speaking off churches which should be gathered vnder the gospell saithe that the earthe shall be full of the knowledge off God as the waters vvhich couer the sea the accomplishment wheroff maie appeare in all places where there is any teaching minister which dothe the office of a faithfull pastor I coulde a great deale easelier beare the reproches which you vtter againste me but vvhen I heare yow thus raile vppon the lordes hoste so indefinitely speakīge of the churches of God yow are vntollerable yet if I shoulde speake againste this as oft as yow giue occasion I shoulde neuer haue doone And if nether yow vvill ceasse this language nor those that shoulde looke vnto yt vvill stope this incircumcised mouthe I vvill commit the cause vnto the lorde and vvaite for his iudgement Off the meanes of an exacte examination off the habilitie off the pastor with owte the helpe off the lorde bishoppe is spoken in an other place vvhere shall be examined vvhat the D. hath to saie It hathe appeared howe vntrwe yt is that the Deacō is superior or hathe moe giftes thē the reste of the bodie of the churche And besides that yt shall appeare in place a moste absurde sayinge that the deacon is aboue that elder which I meane for I meane the same vvhich S. Paule meaneth ther was no occasion at all here to speake off the superioritie off a deacon vnto a senior For ether he owghte to proue a deacon aboue a pastor or els he hathe saide nothinge to that vvhiche is in question In the 308 page the Bishoppe is auowed to be a Pastor here he is Superior to a Pastor and therfore no Pastor for there can be no comparison but betwene twoo thinges at the leste ād yt is very strange that a man shoulde be higher then him selffe So that to defend these bishops and Archebishops the Ans hath neede haue a newe grammer and a newe logicke for they transcende and goe beionde all the rules that euer yet vvere hearde of I knowe what is vsed with vs but is that a sufficient answer is this yowr defense off the booke I proue him to be deacō and yow can not denie it therupō I cōclude that he is inferior to the pastor and yow saie I knowe an archdeacon withe vs maie be minister off the worde But the Question is not vvhat he is but what he maie be by the vvorde off God for yow owghte to haue shewed that a man may haue the order off pastor and deacon at once For yf he be but a deacon and no pastor then beinge inferior to the Pastor he owghte not by him selfe alone iudge of the sufficiencie off a Pastor yf he be bothe a Deacon and a pastor at once then in steade off ministers yow bringe monsters
some reason and will yow cast yt awaie with a worde But the order of trying his gifte off expounding is good and for the moste parte necessarie For althowghe yt may be perceiued by questioning shortly with him what his vnderstanding is in the misterie off Christ yet his vtterance disposition and memorie giftes necessarie for a minister can not be tried but by suche a profe or by long acquaintaunce with him which can be seldome betwene the ordeiners and him that is to be ordeined And iff in well ordered cities ther is no man admitted to set vpp in any mysterie onlesse he haue offered to the Maisters off the companie some worke for a masterpeece and declaration that he hathe skil in that he will open his shop for how muche more in the ministerie off God owght it to be prouided that before he be allowed to worke in the great misterie off our saluation and laye hand to the framyng of the siluer vessels of the church off God the maisters off the companie especially whiche are the Elders off the church being best able to iudge owght to haue triall how he handleth the goulden hammer off the word off God. But if M. D. which at other times loseth the corde off lawfull vocation will here to pinche me vvith all girde it so streight I answere that neither he which is to be admitted doth it withowt vocation being therunto called by those whiche haue to doo in the electiō nether doo they admit him withowt warrant of the word of god For the lord in com̄aunding to take a sufficient triall of his abitilie ād that precisely before he be admitted doth in that commaundement include all thinges that pertaine therto For as vvhen any peace off grownd is giuen vnto one ther is also a waye to come vnto it graunted withall althowghe the same be not mentioned so the lord in giuing to his church power to trie his ministers can not by any meanes bethowght to haue hedged vp the way which leadeth neerest vnto that triall And beside the reason heroff owt off the word off God ioyned with the practise off diuerse churches We haue plaine examples in the scripture as I haue shewed in my former booke And how dothe not the A. here condemne manifestly the exercise of common place vsed in the vniuersities wherin younge men that they might he better prepared for the ministerie do interprete in there courses the scriptures which haue no admittance or ordination vnto the ministerie I will let yow passe heere with this contrarietie with yowr selffe that yow graunt to euery minister the rule off his flock whiche deni it so stoutlie in other places where yow giue it to the Bishops and Archbishops If yow had found suche a one in me yow would haue made suche hue and crie sufficient to haue raised a whole countrey But I will not presse your contrarieties but wher they be pregnant And so I leaue it to the iudgement off the indifferent reader how well the answerer hathe mainteined the wantes off the booke which were by me in this behalffe assigned Their wordes are to be seene my replie and your answer let the world iudge what forehead there is in him which saith they condemne all as euill and as vnlearned lest I spend moe wordes in prouinge that it is light at noone daies There is more likelehoode that for want of iust triall they might be thowght to denie a lawfull callinge to those which are admitted by the common order But it followeth not theroff that they saie there are none lawfullie admitted for the cause before alledged And it is vnreasonable yow should charge them vvith that vvhich I vvrite or vvith that the second admonition vvriteth Touching the nombre off sufficient ministers in Fraunce I wrote that vvhich I receiued wether it be trew or no it may easely be knowen of those vvhich vvill enquire off it Take yow good leaue to speake all good off the vniuersitie it shal be my recreation after your importunate barkinges yt is my dailie praier it may goo well with her and althowghe I be from her yet I caried some of her boweles vvith me so that whether there be in her either iust cause of ioye or sorowe I haue them in com̄on with her I can take no exceptiō vnto yowr 450. vniuersitie preachers not hauīg the register of the vniuersitie but yow did warely saie knowē preachers and not godly preachers for some of those haue troubled the vniuersitie and other places with popishe leauen of pargatorie free will ād Abrahams besome cut owt by a larger measure then euer our sauiour Christ taught But to le◠the corruption off some and the inhabilitie off other some with the so rare preachinge off certeine that as at the appearinge off a comete or blasinge starr or some other notable change in the heauens so at their preaching there may be feare off some calamitie to come to let all those goe to helpe to make vp this garlond off 450. yow owght not haue forgotten to subducte those which are taken awaie by death those vvhich are thrust owt off the ministerie and musled by the bishops those which are mued in cloisters those which beside the necessarie vse off the vniuersitie remaine there and those vvhich hauing charges in the countrey lurke there These being subducted excepte the accomptes doo rise better then yow shew I feare me that I may cut of from the numbre of 2000. hable ministers in the whole church of Englād which I assigned before as many as yow take from that nombre which I reported to be in Fraunce And alas what are these fiue loues and 2. fishes to so many thowsand churches So that if yow had not doone it at vnwares and had not had an other ende then is false owt we should haue had to thāke yow for this leuie of ministers vvhich the vniuersity hathe bred as that which strēgtheneth the fewnes off hable ministers which I assigned M. D. hand is still on his halfepennie and as Plautus Euclio he suspecteth euery man for his treasure and by putting his hand so often to the sore vvhen he is not touched he declareth plainely vvhat is the greife The feare of spoile off the churches goodes is not vvithowt cause But there was no cause to suspecte it in the Innes off court which off their yearly exhibitions giuen to mainteine there studies haue erected vp three diuinitie lectures more for any thing I know then all the bishops haue doone Therfore yow euill requite this liberalitie with such suspitions Yf the Centurion deserued praise for building a Synagoge and is cōmended by the holie Gost to all posteritie for his liberalitie in prouidinge a place for the preachinge off the word then they for there liberalitie in prouidinge for the minister him selfe deserued a better gratulation then this Yf they had throwen in somewhat into the Corban and botomlesse bagge it should haue bene counted to them for
common wealthes that euer were I haue shewed generall commaundementes to the contrarie therfore vnles yow can shewe them repealed by a contrarie acte they are still in force For the examples off S. Peter and S. Paule here tediously repeated I haue answerrd before at lardge Towching the wyping a waie off Ambrose example I did it firste in place which yowr glosse denieth For prouing that no newe conuerte should be chosen to the ministerie allthowgh our Sauiour Christe did chuse S. Paule Ambrose example stoode in the waie and therfore I gaue him in deede the wipe but it was with the sworde off god His choise was also againste the allowed practise off the churche if yow knowe whose voice this is yester daie cathechised to daie a bishop Where he merueilethe that so plaine a precepte off S. Paule is not kepte and callethe them sodaine and momentany minsters whiche are so made And albeit that some differred their baptisme longe after their conuersion and in deede to the time off deathe yet yow doo not shewe that Ambrose was in that â—â—â—ber If he were yow fasten therby greater ignorance vppon him then I haue doone who yow saie speake contemptuously off hym Besydes it is one thing not to be baptized and another thinge to be catechumenus For those whiche were not baptized beinge sufficiently instructed were admitted to the supper off the lorde but in that yt is saide Ambrose vvas Cathecumenus is declared that he was not yet sufficiently instructed in the principles of religion Whatsoeuer yt is I saie yt coulde not be withowte great disorder that a man shoulde be chosen gouernour off the cytie whiche had neuer tasted off the water theroff I knowe Ambrose was a notable man and learned in humaine knowledge yet I mighte withowte either greate disgrace or any contempte saie that whiche I saide And yf this were the place for it I coulde easely shewe vppon howe good grownde I saide that it had bene safer for the churche he had bene better instructed in the scriptures before he occupied the place off Doctor Whereunto I coulde vse his owne testimonie whiche saithe that he was constrained to teache that whiche he himselffe had not learned Albeit he is constrained to agree to that whiche is affirmed yet for the great desire he hathe to strike at me he woulde wreste this epistle owte of my handes then the whiche there can be nothinge more plaine For Cyprian reasonethe againste Fortunatius chalenge off his bishoppricke after that he had fallen to Idolatrie by the generall rule that none owghte to be admitted vnto the ministrie whiche had so fallen And therfore almoste in the beginninge off the Epistle he chargeth him that he dare chalenge vnto him the ministerie vvhiche he hathe betraied as thovvgh yt vvere lavvfull after hauing bene at the alter off the deuil to come vnto the alter of god And after he had shewed the horrible punishementes that the lorde God willed they should be punished with that faulted that waies he addeth Seing therfore the lorde threateneth suche tormentes and punishementes in the daie off his vvrathe to suche as obey the diuel and sacrifice to idoles hovve can he thinke that he maie doo the office off the minister off God vvhiche hathe obeied and serued the prie stes off the diuel or hovve dothe he thinke that his hande can be translated to the sacrifice and praier off the lorde vvhiche vvas captiue to sacriledge and to suche a crime Off thes wordes and diuers other in that epistle yt is euideÌ„te that he dothe not therfore seclude Fortunat. onely becawse he did not repente but becawse yt was not lawfull for those that had sacrificed c. to be restored vnto their mynisterie And therfore he purge the hym selfe and his fellowes in an other place off that he was supposed to haue receiued Trophimus to the ministrie and otherwise then a laye man althoughe yt be there declared that Trophimus did submitte him selfe in all humilitie vnto the churche Wherfore hathe he browghte in here that there was certaine tyme off repentance appointed in Cyprians time c. doothe anye bodie denie yt or maketh yt any thinge to his purpose That whiche he he shoulde haue proued he to wchethe not For againste that he saide Off the examples off the primatiue churche in restoringe off those vnto their mynisterie whiche had fallen vnto Idolatrie I haue shewed the vse off the moste ancientest tymes and he bringeth nothinge at all but onely affirmeth those thinges which no man deniethe and make nothing to the purpose The councell off Carthage whiche ordeined that none mighte be receiued againe to the ministerie which had defyled him selfe with Idolatrie is here reiected the reason whereoff is also added for that the same Concell decreed rebaptizing off those whiche were baptized by Heretikes The Ans maye throwe awaye the authoritie off a councell because of an error in yt withowte either scripture Doctor or councell when I doo yt not withowte either all thes authorities or at the leste off the scripture yt is cried owte againste as an vnlearned shifte and I can not tell what But I am contented yow shall throwe a waie the councell off Carthage which established that error yet yow shall not throwe awaie that wherin it was agreed againste restoring off ministers fallen into Idolatrie How so Because they were decreed in seuerall councels For profe theroff I alledge the wordes off Cyprian And when there be other boothe many and greuous faultes where withe Basilides and Marshal are inwrapped such doo in vaine goo abowte to occupie the place off a bishoppe Seing yt is manifeste that suche men may not gouerne the churche off Christe nor offer vp sacrifices vnto god Especially when off late boothe withe vs and with all the bishoppes in the worlde euen Cornelius also our fellow in ministerie peacable and iuste and whom the lorde vouchesafed the honor off a Martyr decreed that suche men mighte be admitted to repentance but shoulde notwithstanding be kepte froÌ„ the honor of the clergy or ministrie Of this place I conclude that forsomuche as the Councell of Carthage was prouinciall as that whiche was gathered off the bishoppes off Africke Mauritania and Numidia and this generall as that whiche was assembled of all the bishops of the worlde that the councell wherin this was determined is not the same whiche determined rebaptization Againe at this councell Cornelius was and gaue his consente at the other he was not neither woulde euer giue his coÌ„sente And so also is answered that whiche yow cite owte of the seconde booke off Cyprian and firste epistle that for so muche as the councell that there is spoken off was in Stephanus time the bishoppe off Rome it can be by no means vnderstanded off this councel that decreed againste the restitution of the ministers whiche had fallen vvhiche vvas holden before his time Therfore the councell there spoken of was but a
churches interest whiche he dothe so plainly bothe here and els where affirme And where yt is supposed that the churche hathe leue to oppose againste him that is to be elected I haue shewed howe manifeste mockerie yt is off the churche off god As for that whiche is saied off maister Bulling and Maister Caluin iointly that they haue affirmed off the significatiō off the worde as muche as he yt is a manifeste vntrwthe For maister Caluin neuer affirmed that the scripture euer vsed that worde to note the ceremonie off layinge on off handes Off M. Bullinger yt hathe bene before spoken There followeth in this seconde rancke Oecunemius whose testimonie is so flat againste the Ans signification off the word lifting vp off handes and therfore also againste the sole election off the bishoppe as a clearer coulde not be required His words be thes yt is to be noted that the disciples vvithe fastinge and praiers did make elections by voices Nowe seinge by the worde disciples Saint Luke and the Scoliast followinge him continually throwghe the storie of the Actes note the people whiche belieued it is manifeste that the Scoliaste dothe both cōclude vppon this place that the people did chuse and cōcludethe yt also of the worde lifting vp off handes Whether in attributinge the same worde vnto Paule and Barnab he meane therby the ceremonie off imposition off handes I will not as in a thinge not worthe the trauaile stande yt is enowghe for me to haue shewed how this testimonie makethe directly againste that whiche the Doctor affirmeth that is to saie that the worde lifting vpp off handes signifiethe in this place off the Actes onely the ceremonie off layinge on off handes For if it signifie bothe the election by voices and the ceremonie off layinge on off hands then our cawse standeth as sure as if it onely signified the election by voices And to this testimonie off the Scoliaste agreeth the same Ignatius that the Ans in his former boke maketh so greate accompte off who writeth thus yt is meet that yovv as those vvhiche be the church off god should chuse by voices yovvr bishopp Wherby not onely appeareth that that author wil haue the churche chuse her minister but also how this worde is vsed off him in the proper signification to note the election whiche is made by voices Chrysostome remaineth which taking the worde for the imposition off handes doothe not exclude the naturall signification Brentius translating Chrysost had folowed that sense I set downe yf the D. can confute him by the greeke example he is worthy off credite Let vs now see what the Ans hath to say against those reasons wherby I shew that S. Luke by lifting vp off handes ment properly the election by voices I may not saithe he teache the holie goste to speake God forbid I should goe abowte yt But shall not he whiche made the mouthe speake and he whiche teacheth all other to speake properly speake properly him selfe I doo not therfore teache the holy goste to speake whiche applie his words to make them agree withe the thinges they signifie but yowr opinion supposeth wante off knowledge off the tonge in the holy goste whiche woulde haue hym signify layinge downe by liftinge vp And where yow saie I trifle becawse he that laieth on his handes muste firste lifte them vpp or euer he can laie them on who trifleth in this poincte let all iudge For who dothe not vnderstande that the name is vsually giuen off the principall and nearest action wherwithe it is doon and not off those actions whiche are farr off accidentall or for the cause and sake off the principall And yt is all on as if a man should call the takinge off a knife into his hande cuttinge off breade because he that cutteth breade muste before take the knife into his hande How be it if there were the same manner off layinge on off hādes in the primitiue churche whiche is in poperie and withe vs where he that is chosen kneeleth on his knees to receiue the bishopps layinge on off handes yt is so farre from any neede to lifte vp his hand or euer he can laie yt on that onles he carie his handes verie vnmanerly like a paire off hanging sleeues he muste let them downe or euer he can can laie them on the heade off him whiche is chosen Therfore althowghe an other mighte vse this poore shifte yet yow which haue vndertaken to defende whatsoeuer the bishops generallie doo in their elections haue if I shoulde deale hardly with yow loste this aduantage Yt is nothinge with the A. that the 70. interpreters off the ould Testament nor that S Paule and Luke him selffe vtter the layinge on off handes by other words Thes are bare coniectures beinge alledged againste him but ye shall heare by and by where he hathe not halfe suche a reason the greate bell goe with certeinly and manifestly Howbeit althowghe thes seem bare coniectures to him yt muste needes haue weighte with those that haue their senses well acquainted with the holy scripture For they knowe that the writers off the newe testament frame them selues vnto the manner off speache off the oulde when they speake off the same thinges and for the gentils sake whiche had knowledge off the translation of the seuentie interpreters they kepe them so carefully to that that sometimes they vse it althowgh yt be not in euery poincte so iuste ād so answerable vnto the trewthe of the Hebrew as mighte haue beene Which thinge doone off all those especially whiche laboured in the tillage off the gentills amongeste whom S. Luke S. Paules Companion was whosoeuer considereth muste nedes confesse that this coniecture is not so bare as he maketh yt I aske yff any man can reasonably thinke that in one and the same ceremonie commen aswell vnto vs off the Newe Testament as those off the oulde Saint Luke woulde leaue bothe the maner of speache of the Hebrewes and the wordes off the 70 interpreters to take a straunge phrase from the one and diuers wordes from the other or whether he woulde leaue the phrase and wordes which the Iewes and gentils were acquainted withe to vse a phrase whiche the Iewes neuer harde of and a worde whiche was in that signification vnknowen vnto the Gentils off all whiche when there is no one which hath not force to perswade this sentence so the laste is suche that yt leuethe no place vnto any resistance For when the holy goste speaketh with the tonges off men and to their vnderstandinge if by this worde lifting vp off handes he had signified a layinge on of handes he coulde not haue beene vnderstanded seinge that worde was of no suche signification in that tonge And where he saithe I oppose my bare coniectures to improue so many learned mennes iudgements I haue shewed howe he hath ouer toulde I haue no where reasoned againste yow as if yow shoulde affirme that by that worde the laying of on hādes
voice off the vvhole brother hood and by the iudgemente off those bishopps vvhich vvere presente and vvhich had vvritten vnto yovv off him c. Thus therforey may be reasoned that was the ordinance off God vvhiche Cyp. taught to haue bene practised by thos examples for he stil coupleth them together withe his doctrine giuē before and groūded owte of the booke of nūbers But he taught that in thes examples the people were not onely presente at the choise but also gaue their voices therfore it was Gods ordinance not onely that that the people shoulde be presente but also that they shoulde chuse And here yt is againe to be obserued that this is another off the popishe shiftes for vnto Luther whiche alledgeth that the people owghte to chuse there minister leste the churche shoulde despise or hathe him vvhich is thruste vppon it vvhilest it mighte not haue him whom yt desyred Pighius answereth that the meaninge off those wordes be that the people shoulde be presente and beare witnes and the same answer is made by other Papistes to other testimonies which are browghte This by the waie that it maie be knowen from whence the Ans prouision comethe Nowe to procede Where he saithe that the people had no voices in Eleazars election I aske him howe he prouethe that If he answer because it is not mentioned in the scripture he hathe answered hym selfe more then twentie times when he saieth that it is an euill argumente to reason negatiuely off the scriptures Let him now take this answer That there was no like necessitie off examininge Eleazars ministrie by voices as ther is off other ecclesiasticall electione forsomuche as he was chosen by the voice off God whiche coulde not be deceiued But Cyprian did well see that if the lorde vvoulde not haue the iudgemente off the churche passed by in those which he him selfe had chosen by his voice from heauen muche les vvoulde he haue any minister thruste vpon the churche againste her will in elections vvhich are made by men withowte suche speciall direction Nowe as this interpretation off the A. is directly againste the wordes off Cyprian directly againste his meaninge shewed forthe by practise and examples so dothe yt directly ouerthrowe the whole scope vvhiche Cyprian alledgeth those wordes for which is that he mighte therby vvithdrawe the churches from communicatinge with the ministerie of those vvhiche had fallen seinge they mighte bothe put them owte and chuse other in their places For if he mente the churche shoulde stande by to see vvho vvere chosen and to obiecte againste him if neede required albeit not thus muche was euer obserued of our bishops tel me who are they Cyprian mēt shoulde chuse magistrate there was none The eldershippe the D. dare not saie for he trembleth at the verie name of it I dare saie his meaninge is to gratifie the bishoppe withe this morsell but yt will choke him if he swallowe yt Yt is the porcion off a nomber and therfore if it coulde be caried from the churche It muste come vnto the bishops that dwell rounde abowte that churche where the election is to be made And if the election and depriuation by Cyprians minde be in their handes howe hathe the people powre to chuse and refuse For if they woulde they coulde neither depriue the presente incumbente nor depriuinge him chuse another Anye off thes thinges ouerthroweth Cyprians drifte and armeth the people withe replies againste his exhortacion namelie that they communicated withe their poluted minister becawse yt is not in them to depose him but in the Bishoppes rounde abowte yt is not in them to chuse another but in the Bishopps Therfore his reprehension and exhortation shoulde haue beene directed againste the bishopps and not againste them And so it is manifeste both by the wordes and whole drifte off Cyprian that his iudgemente was that by the ordinance off God in Ecclesiasticall elections the consente and iugemente off the churche is necessarie The Cuckoe is heere come againe for looke the D. booke and yow shal see ether the same wordes or at leste the same matter withowte any addition Which are heere in the 1. 2. 3. 4. sect off this diuis In the 164. and 165. pag. sect 1. 2. Yow haue yt set before yow almoste all againe This is not Colewortes twise but thrise sodden Yt behoueth that he imagine a great famine of learned writinges that dare thus abuse the cares and leysure off his reader Touching the variety of Electiōs which he citeth out of M. Caluin onles as vnnatural weomen doo their children conceiued in adultry he purpose to make awaie withe his cause I knowe not what he shulde meane to offer yt thus into the handes off her enemies For he writeth thus in that place alledged In oulde tyme ther vvas none receiued not so muche as in to the nomber off clerkes vvithovvte the consente off the people so that Cyprian doothe diligentlie excuse him selfe that he had appoincted Autelius a reader vvithovvte aduise off the churche And so rehersing Cyprians wordes after he addethe But becavvse in those smaller exercises there vvas no greate danger for that both they vvere in dailie tryall and the function vvas not greate the consente off the people ceased to be asked And by those small exercises yt muste needes be he meaneth the Acoluthes the Exorcistes and the Readers whiche maie appeare to haue beene in Cyprians tyme by his Epistles And maie yet better appeare wheras Maister Caluin shewinge the cause why the people was not so carefull in that behalfe off retaininge their righte saithe For there vvas none made subdeacon vvhich vnder that seueritie off discipline that vvas then had not gyuen longe experience off him selffe in the clerkshipp and after he vvas tried in the subdeaconshippe he vvas made deacon So that yt is manifeste that by the order off Clerkes there he meaneth those whiche were vnder the degree of a subdeacon He saith also that aftervvardes the people did permitte the iudgemente and choise off other orders likevvise vnto the bishope and elders excepte the bishoppricke or vvhē any nevve elders vvere appoincted where firste yt makethe directly againste yow that in times paste not so muche as a poore Exorciste or reader was chosen withowte the consente off the people Secondly that he saithe Cyprian did excuse him selfe vnto the people that he had chosen Aurelius implyinge therby that althowghe he had some reason to leade him to doo so yet he was in the peoples daunger Thirdly that yt was the peoples righte in that they permitted this powre vnto others Fourthly that this righte was giuē to the elders ād not to the bishop alone as yowe woulde haue yt Laste of all that bothe the choise of the bishoppe and elder remained in the powre off the people Wherfore yow vntrwly reporte when yow saie that the people committed the choise vnto the bishopes and elders excepte yt were in the election off the bishoppe
gyuen vnto the people againste their vvill nether by oppression of mighty men vvhiche is detestable let the cytisens or clergie be dravven to gyue their consente And thus muche for answer to yowr Councels To fetche a commaundemente out off the booke off numbers is to fetche yt out off the higheste courte off heauen And I was not constreined vnto it for off more then halfe a score reasons brewghte whether one off them be once moued by yow I leaue it to be iudged This commaundement pinched yow so that albeit yow pretende lawghter yet I dowbte not but yt is Sardons lawghter that is to saie from the teethe owtwarde where yow saie there is no worde which signifieth an election yt is yowr olde boldnes off denying that which is as cleare as the none daies Where also yow saie that it speakinge off layinge on off handes can make nothinge for the election off the church I beseche yow syr how doo yow proue that Timothe hathe the choise of ministers ys it not by thes wordes that he is bidden not to laie on his handes and haue yow not saide that by the layinge on off handes the whole solemnitie off creatinge ministers is vnderstanded this is faste and lose and not onely as Teconius said that that vvee vvill is holie but when wee vvill and as longe as vvee vvill Belike the laying on off handes signifieth nothinge or if it doo and not the consente off the people Why doothe not the Answ tell vs what And where he goeth abowte to finde some differēce in this and that vvhich I saie off the layinge on of handes by the Eldershippe and heroff besides the peintinge off his mergente speaketh ones twise and the thirde tyme accordinge to his olde manner of repeticiōs He purposely as seemeth passeth by my answer to that obiection that not the people but certeine that is to saie the elders in the name off the people did laie on their handes as it is to bee seene in other places vvhere the gouernours in the name off all the people laie on their handes vpon the sacrifice for synne Where yow will mee to speake in good earneste If I had onely to doo vvith such a trifler I woulde either answer nothinge or els as such a one is worthie but because I haue to doo with the church off God for iudgement off the iudiciall and Ceremoniall law and for proofe off yowr vntrew dealing I refer my selffe to that I haue saide before Yff this I haue alledged off layinge on off handes vpon the ordeined bee a Ceremoniall lawe which tooke ende by the comming off our Sauiour Christe then the Apostels vvere iniurious vnto his deathe that translated that Ceremonie from the Iewes vnder the lawe into the churche vnder the Gospell Therfore in this poincte yow haue to doo with the Apostles and not with me For as vnder the lawe the gouernoures and the people consentinge into one action testified the same by layinge on off handes off the gouernours onely so vnder the Gospell the elders and people consentinge in the election off one doo testifie it by layinge on off handes off the Elders onely Where yow vvoulde proue yt abrogated because yt yt is ioined with other thinges which are abrogated I haue shewed howe that is an engyne to wreste owte off the handes off the church all the morall lawes that euer vvere vvritten Where yow saie there coulde be no election off the people in the leuytes for that God had chosen them Yow mighte haue vnderstanded that althowghe the tribe of Leuy onely were vsed to the ministerie yet all that tribe was not applied that vvaies but as many as vvere thowghte enoughe to supplie that office and those also not at all aduenture but by choise accordinge to their habilitie I feare not Maister W. the iudgemente off the greateste enemies I haue and frendes yow haue in this cause but that their owne consciences shall vvitnes vvithe mee off my faithfull alledginge off the scriptures and off yowr either notable ignorance or very euill conscience And in thes iestes off yowres and accusations off my byndinge men vnto the Ceremoniall lawe and bringinge them to Iudaisme and fetchinge off a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall lawe Were yow not a fraide by my sides to thruste thorowghe Cyprian Who fetcheth his profe for the election off the ministerie by the voice off the people owte off the booke off nombers vvhere mention is made also off the preistes garmentes vvhich vvas ceremoniall Or vvere yow not afraide thus to handle Maister Caluin His profe is fetched owt off Leuiticus vvhose speciall argumente is to handell ceremonies and mighte not I fetche a commaundement out off nombers which hath an other scope He onely vppō that it vvas cōmaunded that Moses shoulde bringe the Leuites before the congregation concluded that the peoples consente ovvghte to be had in the ministers choyse and was yt not lawfull for me hauinge the same grounde and further also the comaundement that the people shoulde laie on their handes to conclude as muche He toke his place from thence where nether in the chapiters before nor in that owte of the vvhich he fetcheth this there is any thinge but ceremonial And was it not lawful for me to take this sentence becawse other thinges in this chap. vvere ceremoniall but that I muste needes be thus iested on and my discretion so greatly required in handlinge the scripture Therfore I saie that I citing this place am no more Iewish then the Apostels then Cyprian then Caluin Where I alledged for the establishing off that vvhich he calleth a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall law that the grovvnd of childrens baptisme standeth vpon the ceremony off Circumcision He answering that circumcision was a figure off baptisme but that the Leuiticall priesthood was no figure off the Ministery off the Gospell is deceiued For certein thinges in the Ministrie off the lawe were figures off thinges in the Ministrie off the Gospell as their anointinge signified that none maie bee admitted vnto the ministerie off the Gospell but those which haue giftes meete for that purpose as our Sauiour Christe him selffe owte off Esai expoundeth yt Euen their sacrifices vvhich off all other thinges are furthest from the ministrie of the gospell shadowed out the mortyfyinge off synne by the sworde off the worde off God that the mynisters mighte offer the people vnto God an acceptable sacrifice throwgh Iesus Christe as appeareth by Saincte Paule And the lawes off the leuiticall priesthoode are not onely figures off our ministerie but often times also rules to directe yt by therfore as off that Aaron toke not vppon hym the preisthood before he vvas called off God the vvriter vnto the Hebrewes concluded the callinge off our Sauiour Christe to his preisthood so farre different from the preisthood off Aaron so wee conclude that no man maie put his foote into the ministrie oneles he bee called Thes argumentes
notwithstanding the misteries of God as the children of God them selues And althowghe the persequution shoulde giue some aduancement to knowledge that waies yet it hindreth more otherwaies in that it letteth the often meetinges to heare the vvorde of God vvherby knowledge is bredd in that also pouertie wher with it is cōtinually yoked draweth many cares for this present life for them and theirs Likwise continuall feare they be in euen duringe the time of their meetinges for the vvorde off God enemie vnto the vnderstanding and puttinge to flighte the powres of the minde vvherwith knowledge is gotten and also the often and soudein shiftinges from place to place muste needes be a lett to that tainment off knowledge in the vvord off god Where yow call vpon answer vnto your reason yow haue it that the time off peace drawethe no more ignorance in the professors off the gospell then the time of persequution and therfore the difference between thes times in that poincte to be euill assigned I alledged also that the elections off the bishoppes vvere so euill and of so vnfitte persones that althowgh the election off the churche shoulde swarue muche yet it can hardly choose vvorse then the bishopes doo wherunto yow answer not The distinction of being of the churche and in the church I browghte and allowed of it yet as thowgh yow had browght it and I refused it yow labour in confirmation of it But that which needeth yowr helpe and for proofe wherof I aske some testimonie of scripture that Idolaters and papistes are in the church is not proued As for dronkardes and whoremongers 2c Yt is spoken off before close papistes and Atheistes which dissemble their vvickednes are in the nomber off Hipocrites and therfore muste be holden to be in the church vntil the Lorde discouer them For professed Papistes and Atheistes which neuer made profession off the gospell it is not needefull to waite for the sentence off excomnnication to cut them of seinge they vver neuer of the church If notwithstandinge their professed enemitie vnto the gospell they should be accounted off the church because they agree to heare the worde and receiue the sacrament with vs then a Turcke or a Iew professinge his Turkisme or Iudaisme if he be contented to heare the worde and receiue the Sacrament is so also to be accoumpted Which if it be absurd it can be no good reason to saie that they owghte therfore to be holden off the churche because they are in some respectes contente to he are the worde and receiue the Sacramentes And I vvoulde gladly learne where the Lord hath vvilled vs so to caste awaie the vse of our iudgement that when men make open profession that they are members off the bodie of the Pope which is Antchriste yet wee muste accounte off them as off members off Christe or howe this is to iudge iustlie Yow are very vnfaithfull in reporting my wordes continually I nether saie that Hypocrites onely are in the church and not of yt and the place in the margent I alleadge to another purpose then yow affirme that is to proue that the papistes and Idolaters beinge vvithowte haue not to doo with the church nor the churche vvith them where yow woulde proue by those wordes if any brother be an Idolater that Idolaters maie be in the churche yow muste vnderstand firste that it is one case off him that hath giuen his name to the gospell and afterward slydeth from that profession to Idolatrie and another of him vvhich neuer gaue it but hath bene from his infancie an Idolater For althowghe the firste can not be seuered from the church withowt solemne sentence of excōmunication because by a publike profession off the trwth he was once receiued into the bodie therof yet there is not lyke reason off him which was neuer so setled And this differēce Saint Paule dooth make when he giueth leaue to a Christian to haue to doo with an Idolater of the worlde that is which hath not bene of the churche and yet will not suffer him to haue to doo with one which is famously knovven for so the the word signifieth to be a brother Wheruppon followeth that forsomuche as our Idolaters professinge their poperie still are not nor can not be famously knowen for professors off the gospell this place of S. Paule openeth no dore for them to enter into the churche Furthermore yt muste be obserued what kinde off Idolatrie yt is which Saint Paule saithe maie fall into a brother and yet he reteine the name of brother This appeareth vpon the discourse he maketh in that Epistle to haue bene onely a sittinge downe to eate at the feaste of Idolaters made in honour of their Idoles withowt any honour doone to idoles by sacrifice or bodily vvorship and vvithowt anie conscience of that meate more then of other Which althowghe he proue a spice of Idolatrie yet was yt one of the leasie and lighteste kindes and such as holdinge stil the foundacione off Christianitie coulde not vvithowt obstinacie in it cut from the church Wherby falle the owte that the papistes vvhich in their Idolatrie rase the foundations of trewe religion can not by that place come into anie accounte off the church off God. For the first place off Maister Caluin that there are in the Church contemners off God and vvhich lyue dissolutely if the S. had added the nexte wordes that suche ovvght vvith all diligence to be taken avvaie by excommunication he might haue bene as hamed to alledge this sentence to so small purpose The other that Saint Paul meaneth the absteining from a disordered brother off priuate societie and not of the publicke communion yt is true in deede but to no purpose For withal he confesseth that the other owght to be seuered from the communion But forasmuche as it is not in the power of a priuate man to excommunicate that perteining as he saith vnto whole bodie off the churche by whose cōsent yt owght to be doone and yet in his power to kepe him selfe from his priuate societie he concludeth against the Anabapt which absteined from the holy cōmunion if any liuing offensiuely were receiued that it folowed not because S. Paul woulde haue one absteine frō priuate familiaritie therfore he would haue him absteine from the communion Which is no parte off our question and is too shamefully alledged considering that the place making nothing to this question striketh starcke dead another off his cawses towching the sole excommunication of the bishopp And althowghe it be owte off place yet hauing gotten the booke yt shall not be vnprofitable to admonishe the reader off the S. vnfaithfull dealing in his former allegations off Maister Caluin for vvhere pa. 81. he to conclude that the discipline is not of the substantiall notes of the churche alledgeth a sentence owt off this booke beside that I haue shewed how euill he concludeth off his wordes it is to be noted that in the same
that he hath taught that Sainct Paule commaundeth that they and in them all bishoppes shoulde onely chuse Wherby are condemned all election by the church as those which haue intruded vppon the bishoppes possession Where he saith that the Adm. dothe coulorably affirme by thes wordes thautoritie is gyuen to the bishopp alone c. that the right off orderinge ministers doth at no hand apperteine vnto the bishopp I would knowe what word there is heere where this coulor is to bee seene aÌ„d what light he is able to giue vs to make yt appeare The other sentence wherwith he woulde proue yt followeth after nether was he come vnto yt Yf he did therfore confute that it is as straunge as iff a man shoulde shutte off and spende his arrowes or euer he come within the reach off his enemie And I thinke there is no example off suche confutation onles he had coupled that place with this and comparinge them together sett vpon them both at ones beside that it is Absurde that where the Adm. heere spake off the election he answereth off admission Here cometh to be considered the A. dealinge in the end off the booke where charged with vnfaithfullnes for that as in this place he would haue in synuated that the Adm. would haue the people chuse onely to proue hym selfe giltles he alledgeth a place of the Adm. wherin yt is said Then the election vvas made by commen consent off the vvhole church To this answer I repâ—lied that it was his ouersight that he tooke the people which is but a parte of the church to be al one with the church which is the whole coÌ„teininge as well gouernours of the church as the people in which replie the D. crieth owte off manifest falsification Why so forsooth because I lefte owte this worde whole that is to saie because I spared hym and kepte backe a peece of his folie and that with disaduantage off that which I pretended to proue For the word church simply set downe doth comprehended as well the gouernours as the people howe much more doth it comprehend them when this worde whole is added And if it were falsely concluded off him against the Adm. that they would haue the ministers to be called allowed and placed off the people because they saide that the election was made by commen consent off the church how much more is yt falsely concluded of thes wordes off the Adm. the election vvas made by consente off the vvhole church Thus appeareth that the D. together with his diuinitie seemeth to haue loste his commen sense yt is time therfore to carie him owte off the schole to some other place iff peraduenture by some sharper discipline he might gather vpp him selfe againe In the same place also vpoÌ„ that I shewed that in proper speach the church and people differed hauing there declared that difference to be in that the church is the whole and the people a parte theroff â–ª this complainer off falsificatioÌ„ saithe that I seeme to seperate the people from the election of the ministers for that I will not haue the worde church in the Adm. comprehend the people which is manifestly againste that I set downe For I precisely reprehended hym for that vppon the worde church vsed off the Admon he woulde haue mainteined his false insinuation againste them that the election should perteine to the people onely consideringe that the word church cited off him was the vvhole and the people one parte and necessarily comprehended vnder it This is not onely falsifyinge but flat facynge Nowe to retourne backe I aske what he needed twife in this diuision in so many and greuous wordes complaine off corrupte dealinge seinge him selfe flatly affirmeth asmuch as I saie of him and otherwise caÌ„ not mainteine his cause The truth is that he absteined then from the wordes electinge and onely bycause he sawe he had nothinge to mainteine them which nowe by my replie he was driuen to put downe or els to forsake his cawse Wherin as he dissenteth from the trwth so he is driuen to haue a newe combat with him selfe in that he heere maketh yt indifferent and at the discretion of the church in tyme of persequution to make elections ether by one or by the multitude which is contrary to that he hath before in thes wordes Lastly in time of persequution when they haue no magistrate they be all equall nether is one bound to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hath cheiff and especiall care ouer the reste as magistrate to compell wherfore yt can not be otherwise then but that such offices should be chosen by common consente Where he alledgeth Zuing. and Bull. owt of place and contrary to the title of his chap. to proue the callinge of certeine by one Apostle because they be Euangelistes vvhich wee haue no vse off and for that I haue shewed that they both are clearly of this Iudgement that the minister owght to be chosen with consent off the church I will not much busie my selfe with this matter But althowgh the Apostles did send thes Euangelistes off their Embassages to knowe howe the churches did and such lyke thinges as required no tariance nor execution off any set ministrie in the churches wherunto they where sent yet that they euer set them to rule any congregation by their priuate autoritie is not to be estemed wheroff this is an apparant reason that Timothe was not set ouer the church off Ephesus by Saint Paule onely seinge that Paule confesseth that he receiued imposition off handes by the eldership Thother also here mentioned beinge Euangelistes it is like the order vsed in one was in thother Nether doo the wordes I lefte the at Creta proue it for he doth not saie that he ordeined him and if he had yet it muste be vnderstanded that he did ordeine him as he had doone in other churches with consente off the church And that this is not my iudgement yt maie appeare by that I haue alledged owt off Caluine and Musculus in the former booke aÌ„d Bez. in this nether could Bull. be thought to haue here such meaniÌ„g as the D. giueth him that the Apostles alone should sett ouer the churches ministers as appeareth by that I haue alledged So that onles he will make Bullinger contrary vnto him selffe thes wordes that Paule and Peter called certeine can not be vnderstanded off placinge them ouer any congregation no further then being cheife in that action they directed the iudgemeÌ„t of the churches there remaineth zuinglius which I meruaile the D. will charge me with seinge he himselffe will not stande to him in the place which he hath alledged For that which he hath lefte owt off Mathias chosen by the vvhole church is directly againste that which he hath in diuers places before affirmed After many vaine wordes againste the replie vnto the places off Timothe as that it is against thauthoritie off learned writers against the whole course off
therfore euery thinge that liueth is a man And I woulde gladly vnderstand by what maisters off our tounge yow can proue that thes two wordes to appoincte and to ordeine differ Iff they be all one why seeke yow aduantage in the one which you can not finde in the other But if it be absurde to saie that ordeininge is nothinge els but to call to chuse and to appoincte yt is as absurde that to appoincte is nothinge els but to call to chuse and to ordeine I am well contente yow expounde the place vnto Timothe off puttinge on of handes by that vnto Titus of appoincting towne by towne For I dowbte not but that which the eldershippe doth or one in the name off the eldershippe after the electioÌ„ is therfore called appointinge or ordeininge to the ministerie because yt is a solemne inuestinge and puttinge him in possession off that wherunto he was before chosen Althowghe Cal. be directly against him in this question whose iudgement is that yt doth nether belonge vnto the bishoppe to choose him selfe alone nor yet to ordeine by him selfe alone yet to helpe to ouerthrowe the right signification of Presbytery he is contente to folowe him at the leste dowting leauinge so many bothe olde and newe which all take that worde for a companie off those which gouerne the churche And it is certeine that those formes off nownes are vsed to signifie ether a societie or els the place where a societie meeteth And Caluine him selffe interpretinge that place where he had better occasion to coÌ„sider of it semeth to haue retracted his iudgement for thus he writeth They vvhich doo here take this vvord presbytery for a novvne collectiue and for the colledge of elders in my iudgement thincke vvell Althovvghe all thinges consydered I graunte an other sense vvill not euill agree that is that yt be the name off the offyce Yff those wordes as I appoincted the be referred as yowr learned interpreters will haue them by laying on off handes and praier they helpe yow nothinge And therfore I will not striue abowte yt Where yow saie Musculus meaninge is not much otherwise meaninge therby to conclude that he mente not to barr Timothe and Titus off their sole election let his wordes then be iudge Hauinge shewed howe Mathias and the Deacons were chosen by the church he saith there is no doubte but the Apostles kepte that maner of ordeininge and alledginge the example of the election off the 14. off the Actes headdeth therfore after fastinge and prayinge vvhich vvas vvonte to be doone in the congregation off the faithfull they ordeined elders vvhich vvere firste chosen of the faithfull And this forme off electinge and ordeininge elders and bishoppes the Apostle commended vnto his fellovve vvorkman Titus and Timothe sayinge for this cause I lefte the at Crete c. for vvho vvoulde beleue that he ordeined that Titus shoulde doo othervvise then both he and the rest off the Apostles vvere accoustomed to doo And althowghe thes wordes declare so plainly that Titus and Timothe chose not them selues alone but by consente off the churches as more fuller coulde hardly be deuised yet to put all owt off dowbte that he mente that Timothe and Titus conformed themselues to the examples off the Apostles in the churches election ioined together with theirs he doth immediatly add this conclusion Therfore bothe by the example and ordinance off the Apostle in the primitiue churche elders pastors bishoppes and Deacons vvere in the Ecclesiasticall meetinges chosen off the people by lifting vpp off handes Where the reader maie consyder what trwth he hath to loke for at the D. handes which denieth thinges that haue so manifeste and so easie confutation And where he saith that herin althowghe he hath lefte Caluin yet he hath folowed the iudgement of other learned men he maie see that he hath not lefte Caluin onely but Muscul Bulling and Zuing. As for his learned men I thinke verely that Pighius Hosius and others off that stampe excepted he is not hable to alledge one to confirme that Titus and Timothe had onely the election off the ministers For those alledged to proue that Timothe and Titus did ordeine are nothinge to the purpose considering no man denieth that but that they ordeined alone was to be shewed And â—â— he had shewed that they alone ordeined which he shall neuer doo yet is not the election off the people therby shut owte forsomuche as election and ordination are seuerall thinges What ether godlines or honesty is in him which dare so bare faced denie thinges so openly vntrwe I will leaue to bee iudged of that which is saide towching that the election doth not belonge vnto the bishoppe alone but vnto the church Here I will shewe that not so much as the ordination can by the testimonie of thauncient fathers or councelles agree vnto one bishop onely which is another poinct that he would haue the reader beleue and therfore owght ether to haue shewed yt or els to haue holdeÌ„ his peace seing none euer denied that the bishop hath to doo in the ordinacion Firste yt appeareth in Cyprian that both in the prouince where he was and in all other prouincs almost the nexte bishopps off that place where ther was a minister to be chosen came to ordeine hym whom the people chose The great councell off Nice decreed that he shoulde be ordeined off all the bishopps off the prouince at the leaste of three Moreouer August sheweth that when the Donatistes accused Cycilian for that beinge cheife bishop off the Prouince off Carthage he waited not to bee ordeined off the cheife bishoppe off Numidia the Catholikes did answer that it was the coustome of the Catholike church that the bishop of Num. should not ordeine the bishop of Carthage but the bishops which were next And in an other place of the same booke he sheweth that yt was the coustome that 12. bishoppes shoulde be at the ordination off him which was chosen bishop and pastor off any church Which appeareth in the same booke to haue bene obserued in the ordination off Cycilian And that yt may appeare that this was by continuall consente and Harmonie off Councells decreed againste the ordination by one bishoppe that one place off Theodoret iff there were no more mighte suffice where he saith that Euagrius came to the office off a bishoppe vnlawfully because onely Paulinus ordeined him contrary to the tenure off manie canons which prouided that they shoulde not be ordeined but by all the bishoppes off the prouince or at the leaste by three Thus yt appeareth that by all antiquitie not onely the election made by one bishope alone but the ordinacion also is flatly condemned as vnlawfull and contrarie to the coustome of the Catholike churche and olde Councelles â–ª wherby is manifest how vaine yt is which is cited owt off Caluin and others to proue that because the Metrapolitane ordeined therfore he ordeined alone Yow answer not
great triumphes of For the first off the places it appeareth how Chrysost there called Iohn elder of the church of Antioche was chosen bishop of Constantinople by cōmē voice of all both people and clergy and how he had his election ratified by the Emperour Arcadius For the seuēth booke yt appeareth that Chrysanthus was chosen bishop off Costantinople by the people And when as Sabbatius because Chrysanthus hid himself and would haue none off the bishopricke gat certeine bishops to ordeine him into yt the story sheweth how the people sowght Chrysanthus owt and put owt Sabbatius diuers other exāples there be which I leaue as I would also haue doon thes if it had not bene to haue shewed the vaine triumphes off the D. And where he saith that there is nothing in those 6. and 7. of Euseb which maketh mentiō of any electiō by the people but in one onely which he goeth about to wipe a way that thow maiest know the D. changeth not his skin I will note them in a word To leaue therfore the election made by reuelation where he saith the election was made by the ministers and pastors yt is manifest that the churches had to doo in the electiōs For in the indorcemēt of the letters wherby an other was appointed at Antioche into Samosatenus roume as well autority off the churches is pretended as off the bishops elders and deacons Where also he would clude the other place firste because it was a miracle then for that by the word brethren it is not certeine whether the people were noted for the first yt may appeare how vaine yt is seing the story saith the brethren came together to chuse a bishop The miracle therfore which came vnloked for off them and after they were assembled was to direct them in their election and not to authorise them to chuse For autority they had before els they would not haue come together for that purpose As for the other it is a boldnes too insufferable withowt shewing any one exāple and contrary both vnto the phrase off the scripture and aucient fathers shewed in my former booke and off Eusebius him self as may appeare diuers times in some one chapter In all thes sentences set downe owte of Euseb there is not a worde for the D. nor againste vs The D. cōsesseth that Origine tawght beinge a laie man in the church publikely he can not denie if he woulde but that he tawght by the appointment off bishoppes Thes two beinge put what followeth but that in those daies he was counted a laie man which toke vppon him the ministerie vppon the bishoppes appoinctinge onelye And that he abuse not his reader with such rouinge treatises my reson I will set downe in a fewe wordes That appointement vnto the ministrie which was thowght not to inhable to be minister was thowght insufficient but the appointement off the bishops onely was thowght not to inhable to be minister for Origene that had that appoinctement and authoritie vvas still coumpted a laie man therfore that authoritie onely was then thowght insufficient Eusebius therfore giuinge me this houlde which the D. is driuen vvhether he will or no to confesse ▪ there is wherwith to vpholde that I haue saide For if the bishops appointment off Origine to preach did not gyue him any degree in the ministrie for what cawse did it not except yt be it at I haue assigned his trāslatiō of Euse words whē he was yet not ordeined minister wherin another point off this matter standeth is not warrāted For by this means he must take one of his wordes which properly signifieth the choise by lifting vp and vsed sometimes of eccesiasticall writers for laying on of hands for a degree which hathe no example Likewise he must take the other vvhich I haue shewed to signifie the company of all the gouernours off the church for the office off one onely elder which wanteth proofe Beside that Muscul which translateth yt semeth to haue folowed the sence I haue where if he had folowed the D. he would haue doone otherwise For in steed of he had not appoinctmēt of the eldership he would haue saied the degree of an elder Where he alledgeth that Demetrius suffred hym to teach at Alexandria when he was a laie man belike therby to proue that the reprehension of Demetrius was not to be regarded which did himselfe that he found faulte with in other yt maketh nothinge to this question For yt is enowghe to that in hande that yt is confessed bothe by Demetrius and Eusebius Which taketh the defense off those whom Demetrius rebuked that Origene was a laie man althowghe appoincted to the preachinge off the vvorde by the Bishops Whether yt be lawfull for a laie man to teache the worde off God in publike place is an other question The nexte sect I leaue to the iudgmente of the reader Of this greate heape which foloweth the moste parte haue bene broughte before some foure times at the leaste they haue bene thresshed and there is no yelde it shal be seen that the rest are no better then their fellowes the places off scripture alledged heere are all answered sauing onely that of the Actes 13. which is borrowed of Hosius who vseth this place againste the choise by the church For answer wherunto I saie that it is nor question there off such election as wee spake off that beinge the election off God and not off the church I for my parte rather thinke that it was the voice off God by the Prophetes or one off the prophetes and for proofe alledge the storie in the Crome which may be cōmētary to this For as the church thē in distresse by publike praier and faste receiued comforte throwghe a Prophet whom the Lorde sodenly in the myddeste off the congregation raised amongeste them euen so the church off Antioche beinge in great distresse and feare off ruine off the church off God partly by the sworde and famine partly by contentions and serchinge remedy by puhlike praier and faste receiued by a Prophet which the lord stirred vpp amongeste them this oracle wherby he shewed them a singular meanes not onely to mainteine but to amplifie the borders off the kingdome off Christe If the S. will not receiue this interpretation but take the holy gost to haue sounded immediatly from heauen yet it helpeth him nothing there was no place lefte for any election but needes muste Paule and Bar. besent Iff therfore the bishop haue the spirite off prophecie at any time wherby he may haue such a certeine and vnfallible direction as this was wee will les sticke with him for his sole election Iff not yt is in vaine to alledge this example sauinge that it maketh much againste him For if the lorde woulde haue the approbation off the whole companie of Doctors and elders in that election vvhich him selfe had made and vvhere there was no daunger off error howe
may better appeare for that in other places where S. Paul deuideth the whole mynistrie of the churche the ministrie off the word which he vttered here by the word off Prophecie he there attributeth not vnto Prophetes but vnto Bishops And when as the prophecie which the D. phansieth is a simple Ministrie off the church that Prophecie mencioned there being compounded muste needes be diuers Likewise that a Prophet to the Corin. is taken generally for any which instructeth with any word off exhortation yt is apparant both by that S. Paul attributeth prophecying to all which haue any gift off teaching and in that he doth so often oppose it to the fruteles speaking in a straunge toung amongest the assembly of the faithfull His testimonies out off writers remaine wherein amongest the auncient he hath onely a counterfeit sentence off Ambrose as I haue before declared which as yt ys full of confusion and disorder so yt maketh nothing for the D. for if Apostels be bishops and Euangelistes and Euangelistes be Deacons c. what maketh that to proue that there are beside the bishops and Deacons seuerall functions of Apostels and Euangelistes which is the question But how this fable is beaten down by all auncient antiquitie that may be a sufficient argument that the auncient writers in great consent speake off the whole ministrie off the church as deuided into thes three orders Bishops Elders and Deacons After that other ministries entred as doorkepers subdeacons c. yet there were none but such lightheaded spirits as I haue before spoken off that durst peint out any their mynysteries with the names off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes For the new writers that the D. if his forhead be not of yron may learn to blush I will towch their Iudgment onely which he hath alledged for him self Maister Caluin diuiding the mynistrie off the word into Apostels Prophetes Euangelistes Pastors and Doctors affirmeth that the tvvo last onely that is to say Pastors and Doctors are ordinary Bucer likewise deuiding them into perpetuall and for a tyme affyrmeth that these perteine vnto thestate off the former church and correcteth the D. Ambrose for appliyng them to his times by the true Ambroses sentence to the contrary in the fyrst of his Offic. Peter Martyr vsing the same diuision sheweth that the function off Apost and Prophets are not in vse and that the ministrye of Prophets is not onely expyred in respect of telling thinges to come but also for the manner off interpreting the scripture That he speaketh not the same off the Euangelist was for that the Apostle maketh no mention off him in that place Musculus deuideth the mynisteries off the vvord into those vvhich serued for the beginning off the gospell as Apost Euang. Proph. and those vvhich cōtinue for euer as Pastors Doctors Elders Bishops Bullinger saith the office off Apostleship Prophetship and Euangelistship were instituted off the Lord for a tyme and that thes many ages euen synce the foundacion off the kingedome off Christ both Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes are ceassed into vvhose place are come bishops Pastors Doctors and Elders Last off all the confession off the churches hauing spoken off all mynisteries off the word mencioned off the Apostel concludeth that off all those now it is lawfull to esteeme mynistries off the churche Bishops Elders Pastors and Doctors Thes autors affirming that thes mynistries be extraordinary that they were for a time that other are come into their places the reader may see how the D. dealeth with him Let yt now be noted how he hath haled thes sentences taken from them Out off Maister Caluin he alledgeth that God hath stirred vp Apostels or Euangelistes synce the time of the primitiue churche and hath doone so at this tyme. Within a lyne after he addeth yet I call that extraordinary because in churchs vvell dressed it hath no place Of the like sort yt ys that he alledgeth owt off my booke whereas vpon Maister Caluin so of my wordes which affirme that God hath raised vp sometimes Euangelistes immediatly by his spirit vvithout any calling off men he woulde conclude that the office is ordinary and perpetuall then which bouldnes what can be greater Out of Bucer he alledgeth that there be now Euāgelists Where if his maner of speach that there are found Euangelists could not yet that which he addeth that God doth it by merueilous meanes ought to haue kept him from that allegacion except he thinck that a miraculous calling be perpetuall and ordinary Out of the Confess is brought that thes offices off Apostles c. are mynistries off the new Testament els should they haue great iniury seing they were both in tyme and dignitie first but who the D. set a part would euer conclude therof that they are perpetuall ministeries especially considering it addeth immediatly in plaine wordes that the Apostles are ceased and Pastors come into their places which could not be yf it had any such meaning as the D. phansieth Where it saith that there are yet Prophetes yf that were not which I alledged out of it towhing the shutting owt of those three ministeries from them which are now in vse yet the manner off speaking there are yet found the same with that of Bucer before alledged declareth that they ment therby an extraordinary calling For so we vse to speak of thinges rare and not in commen vse Last off all where yt is alledged owt off Bullinger that the wordes mentioned to the Ephe. are confounded yt doth not make for him but is answer both against the most places brought to proue Timothe a bishop and against those which he hath cited in the 3. and 4. Diuision off this chap. for if those ministries being separate one from an other their names notwithstanding be confounded yt muste follow that not euery one which is called an Apostle or bishop c. hath that function which is by some proprietie seuered from other and which the Apostle mēt to the Eph. for where one man being an Apostle is sometimes called a Prophet Bishop Doctor Elder and Deacon yf he will say that because he is called by thes titles he did therefore all those functions proper vnto those mynistries beside thabsurdities before shewed the vntruth doth manifestly appeare in the office off disposing off the churches money Whereoff the Apostles discharging them selues ceassed not therefore sometime to be called by the same name off Deacons And to vse those authorities which he hath brought Ierom calleth I say the Prophet both Euangelist and Apostel Yet I think the D. doth not esteme Ierom to haue had so litle iudgement as to think that he was ether off them in that signification they are taken of Saint Paul. likewise where he hath cited out off Caluin that Timothe was a Pastor when Caluin calleth him also an excellent Doctor and maketh that a seuerall function from the Pastor yt is cleare that he spake not off
about An. 266. had no authoritie but was a poore Bishop vnder persequnting Emperours And if the Emperours had been Christian then as they were heathen yet how cometh yt to passe he doth not vnderstand that in going about to make men belieue that the Bishop off Rome at that tyme had authoritye to limite dioceses parishes c. in the church off God he setteth vpp a Pope and armeth him with that authoritie which he neuer came vnto foure hundreth yeares after Finally if this Monke were off any credite he is directly against him euen in this cawse For off the wordes before alledged yt is cleare that he appointed vnto euery elder a seuerall parish vvherin he should keepe him selfe which is against the pluralitie off benefices that he so greatly striueth for He asketh where it appeareth that the scripture deuided nationall churches into congregations and parishes I answer that off that the scripture willeth elders to be chosen for euery competent congregation and particular bodie off church and also that thes assemblies as all other thinges in the church should be with the greatest conuenience so that as Ierusalem had commendation in hauing her building knit closely together euen so the church as much as may be conueniently should haue her partes not onely in a spirituall bond off charitie but in neighbourhood of dwellinges well trussed one with an other yt is apparant that although the scriture doth not mention parishes nor precisely define off the compasse yet yt giueth the rule wherby they are squared owt For when a parish well bounded is nothing els but a nomber of those families which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resort and the assemblies off the churches owght so to be ranged as they may be neerest the place off their spirituall refection yt followeth that the scripture hathe after a sort gyuen the churches tarriers and that a parish well bounded for the spirituall intercommuning hath testimonie owt off the word off God. Where he asketh proofe off this that dioces is taken for a parish yt appeareth first that in the primitiue church bishops in steed that they are now off such a dioces were then of a parish afterward when they began to hooke into their possession moe churches then they were able to feed they were called bishoppes off dioceses ▪ yet the name parish was not quite worne owt but indifferently vsed for a dioces as appeareth by the councell of Ancyran where one translation hauing dioces thother hath parish And yt shall better appear in the 8. Tract that at the first there were dioceses off so narrow compas that diuers parishes in England may appear to be off greater circuit then they That the place off buriall mentioned off Euseb wat in the field may as I saied be gathered off the vse off the church which I haue noted in an other place That the churches of Christ had nether thē nor in the time that the D. imagineth any churchyardes ys manifest considering that then the temples wherunto the churchyardes were annexed were possessed off idolaters The answer to the incommodities off buriall in churchiardes that by that reason churches and other thinges must necessarily be remoued is a begging off that in question and otherwise insufficient For yt is in demaund wether it be conuenient and if it had been yet being not necessary it owght for such abuses to be taken away And beside the incommodities assigned it was as may appeare taken of the Papistes from the superstition off the heathen For Lycurgus made this law that men should burye in cyties and round about the temples Now residence being necessary and that principally for preaching off the word it appeareth how disordered a power yt is off the bishop off whose licence the pastor both chosen and ordeined must depend in a thing precisely commaunded to him by the Lord and for omitting wherof the thunderbolt of Gods course is from heauē throwen vpon him Therfore the chapter intitled Off licences to preach shall be heere in a word or two dispatched First the D. charged with false dealing in that he surmiseth of the Ad. as if one might preach withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth answereth their meaning is plaine belike he hath it by reuelation for in their wordes there is not a title sounding thar waies But he saith yt was their owne case which put from preaching would haue preached against the bishops will. Where leauing that to those that may haue knowledge therof I answer that he towcheth not the matter For both they speake ād my reply was of those which ordeined to preach the gospell are sent to their charges not able to doo their duties withowt further licence as if a man charged to doo a thing should be bound hand and foot of him that charged hym and layed at his mercy whether he wil lose him Wherunto he answeretth not a word Thirdly he laieth to my charge that I had not answered towching that the Adm. would haue preached against the bishops will a word wheroff is not found but onely in his latter book then which what greater dotage can there be as yf there could be default off answer whera there was no such thing obiected In that I saied vvithovvt their approbation to vvhom yt apperteineth he excepteth that there is an equiuocation yt being not set downe by whom the election should be made Where beside that yt was apparant before by a whole treatise what we think in that behalf and owt of place to speake off it heere his exception is too childish For to whomsoeuer thelection doth appertein this case remaineth the same whether it be vnlawfull to ordein one to preach the word and yet to keepe it still in his power whether he shall doo yt or no. Off this sort is that he saith I suppose no man may preach which hath not certein charge and onely in yt Wheroff although I make not heere one word off mention yet howsoeuer yt be taken this case remaineth one Where I shewed that the bishop could not alledge for defense that he vvhom he sendeth prisoner to his church is ether heritik or schismatick or suspected for that he ovvght not then to haue admitted hym vnto that ministery he vseth open falsehood For he saith I suppose that hypocrites schismatikes c. may be knowē forthwith or suspected may be by and by remoued Wheras first I haue not a word off Hypocrites and haue before manifestly tawght the contrary off that he heere forgeth that the church can not procede against Hypocrites that is those whose sinnes are not discouered and that God onely hath reserued their iudgement vnto him self Then where I shewe that those which are to be admitted to the ministery owgt to be free from suspicion off heresy or schisme the D. answereth as if I had saied that those which haue already bene in the ministery were vpon suspicion off heresy to be desposed Which what
seely Sophistery it is and whether this whole diuis declare the D. spoiled off all both conscience and iudgement I leaue yt to be considered off all men The 5. Tract and 6. vn the O. Off preaching Mynisters HEere may be iustly renewed the complaint of the prophet that the preists did not onely them selues not execute their charge according to the lawes giuē in that behalf but gaue those also entrance to whom the lord had vtterly denied it For yt is not enough for the D. to feed hym selff and others with the bloud off the church in defense off the vnlawfull absence off the Pastor onles by this maintenance off vnpreaching ministers as yt were by banner spred he make a feast theroff vnto all the rauening and Cormorant foules in the land And so as if it were a small thing to beare the condemnation off his owne parishes he stretcheth owt his hand to haue part in the gilt off others And although this defense may seem to be gyuen to thes wofull readers yet if we gyue a litle heed we shall easely perceiue that both this puddle ād others which depend vpō it returne to fill if it were possible the Ocean sea off non residents For nō residence would bring litle ether to filling off cofres or bathing off them in the delightes off the world or to what other thing soeuer they in their absence propound vnles there were such hungry knightes as would for a crust of bread supply this absence Now for remouing off thes sweepinges owt off the church ministery we must come backe to a diuis towching this matter Where yt is saied that the people need not pine away for lacke off foode seing they haue one to reade c yt is but a begging off that in question for is this the diet which God hath appointed to his children or portion he hath commaunded his faithfull seruantes to gyue vnto his family in due season or that delicate table and cup that runneth ouer are thes the housholders which before they set vp or take the charge off housekeping haue filled all the ir garners furnished all their cellars frawght all their threasuries with all store newe and oulde fitte to enterteine the sonnes and dawghters off the great kinge off heauen we is vnto that how 's holde that hathe such a stewarde and wo shall be vnto that stewarde that vppon suche prouision vndertaketh the stewardshippe off the howse off god But wo and wo againe shall be to him that not onely him selfe famisheth the how sholde which he hathe but teacheth others to doo so and not onely doth euill but iustifieth the euill doer A. great parte off the D. alowance here cometh to be examined after as that bare reading is not able without Gods extraordinary worke to deliuer one sowle and that homilies are not seruiceable in this solemne bancket Now to runne throwgh the reste I answer prayers and Sacramentes forasmuche as they take effecte by the preachinge off the worde where that is not those doo not onely not feede but are ordinarily to further condemnation That whiche the Curates can gyue before they haue learned their Cathechisme of wiche tyme is here spoken is poison and no meate so that hetherto they maie pyne for any thinge that the Answ setteth before them in suche sorte especially as he settethe yt All the hope therfore off delyueringe them from famyn hangeth vppon the well disposed preacher whiche if he feede another flocke withe the hinderance off his owne or hauinge no flocke goe abowte in circuite whether so euer he thincketh good I will not dente but the one and the other maie haue a good meaninge therin but whether the lorde alowe off it onles he be able to shew the seale off some extraordinary calling I leaue yt to be considered of that which hathe bene before disputed I omit that I know my selfe that within seuen myles of Cambridge there haue bene parishes where one off thes sermons was not in fowre whole yeares Which if y◠be so neere Cambridge where the greatest number off those preachers be what is to be thowghte off other places off the Realme Onles yow counte euery reproche and raylinge worde an argumente here is no worde to proue that yt is meete to enioyne mynisters to learne Cathechismes that is to saye to proue that they maie be ministers off the worde before they haue learned the Christian A. B. C. which children off seeen yaere olde in reformed churches can answer vnto They are necessarie poinctes wh◠he are tawghte there So ys the A. B. C. to him whiche will learne to reade they are the weightieste thinges in our Religion Els they coulde not be the foundations whiche vphold the whole buildinge To haue saide somethinge yow shoulde haue saide they are the hardeste and difficulteste poinctes off religion but that yow can not those beinge without the circuite off a Cathechisme I am contente therfore yow shall praise the booke withe what wordes yow will but when yow haue doon looke that yow leaue yt a Catechisme that is to saie a treatise of the firste elemētes or A. B. C. off Christianitie And then yt followeth that yowr enioyninge off yowr mynisters to learne it doth necessarily presuppose ignorance off those thinges the wante off knowledge wheroff in that age not onely owghte to remoue them from the colledge off mynisters but leaueth them no place till they be better instructed to syt amongest the Christians And if yow thinke this no discredite at all yow haue yowr credite seperate from the credite off the churche whiche is discredited dishonored yea vtterly destroied by suche blinde eyes And I maie further saie that he whiche thinketh this no discredite maie be feared to seeke credite in the ignorance off the mynisters whilest amongeste such a blinde companie his sighte maie be somewhat ād whilest he maie vse their simplicitie to the establishmente off that tyranny which a learned mynistrie woulde neuer beare But because the Ans can saie nothinge let vs heare what the Heluetian confession fully repeted againe 253. and yet againe 484. mentioned also the fowrth time saithe for them vvee condemne all vnmeete mynisters not indued vvith gyftes necessarye for a shepherd that shoulde feede his flocke What doo I heare doo yow condemne all c hearken Maister D. heere is sentence off condemnation gyuen off those whiche yow defende Was there no easier worde to vse but condemninge yf they had onely saide they approued them not speakinge owte off the worde off God as they doo yt had bene a shrewde blowe But in sayinge flatt'y that they condemne them they haue saide what they coulde for the vtter sweepinge them owte of the church as longe as yt standeth And take this also with yow that in condemninge them they condemne the making and defence of them Thus our ignorante ministers haue once passed the condemnation off the churches and in this condemnation they lie and shall lie as longe
saied that it ingendreth knowledge off the doctrine off saluacion Where I alledged that the consideration off the creatures may nourish faith not able yet to breed yt he answereth then let vs haue images that they may be lay meÌ„nes bookes Which beside the coÌ„men fault off being nothing worth is a wicked and popishe answer For if I had made the consideration of the creatures equall vnto reading off the scriptures in that teinement off saluation as I compared them onely in that both nourishing faith nether could ordinarily breed yt had yt bene lawfull therfore for hym to match instruction by images with that which cometh by beholding the creatures ys there ether the same or like proportioÌ„ between the schoole of Imagery and of the creatioÌ„ of the world are thes bookes of the same print the one coÌ„ming froÌ„ the lordes presse the other owt off the deuils printing howse the one giuing a good report off the Lord and setting owt his glory the other dishonoring him the one teaching the truth the other being Doctors of lies and vanity finally the one being commaunded the other forbidden But thus must the iudgement off God be fulfilled against the ennemies off his truth in closing vp their eyes which seing will not perceiue The like blindnes yt is that he accounteth an image a visable creature making therby a carpentour a creator In graunting that preaching is the moste ordinary meane to worcke saluation by his opinion shaketh a token that yt will fall flat in the end For if it be the moste ordinary and the moste ordinary ordinarily moste effectuall then it is vntrue he saith that the word simply redd is as effectuall as preached Where vppon lifting vp off our Sauiour as Moses lift vp the serpent following Caluins interpretation which expoundeth yt off the preaching off the gospell I shewed that the word preached being lifted vp higher then when yt is redd is easelier seen of the eie of faith this trifler frameth first my reason of the â—â— ver wheroff I make not a lettre mention Secondly bringeth an other interpretation off the place I alledge but answereth not Caluins reasons who coÌ„futeth it Thirdly he saith that although the interpretation be graunted which I followed yet the cause is not proued therby for that Christ is lifted vp by symple readiÌ„ng â–ª which is no sufficient answer onles he had added that it is lifted vp as highe For when I affirme the word set in a lowe place I meane not that all reading symply and in it self considered is on the ground but in comparison off that when it is expounded by preaching And if preaching doo make yt better vnderstanded and easelier seen then when yt is redd onely which at vnawares he manifestly confesseth then yt is true which I haue set downe that preaching in respect off reading doth as yt vvere set the vvord in a more sightly and therfore higher place As for Caluins interpretation which I followed becawse yt is dowbtfull and the conference off an other place semeth rather to confirme Augustines who referreth yt to the crosse off our Sau. Christ to spar owt the D. from his owt courses let him follow that he bringeth I will not striue especially seing the same sense off lifting vp our Sauiour by preaching appeareth otherwise where by yt he is saied to be crucified before our eyes Vnto that I alledge off the sauour off the vvord svveeter and more nourishable vvhen it is braied and cut then vvhen yt is by reading giuen as yt vvere vvhole and in grosse towching the first he asketh whether the word redd is not a sweet sauour in steed that he should haue sayed as sweet which he durst not In the second whether there be no discretion required in reading yes but more in preaching Although thus he towcheth not the matter for vnto the point of breaking and cutting off the scripture doone by preaching which applieth the generall doctrine to the particular circumstance wherin it is like vnto aromatique spices sweeter broken then whole and vnto holesome meat apter to nourish when yt is chewed or cut then when yt is not he answereth nothing For as thinges aromatiquall and meates both broken and who le haue the same sauour and vertue off nourishing in regard off them selues yet in regard off vs are sweeter and more nourishable broken c so the word off God off the same vertue in yt self both redd and preached ys vnto vs more profitable preached then redd wherunto perteineth that Saint Luke calleth the interpretation off the scriptures an opening of them which in the second edition because yt was leo figuratiue then the comparison off aromatique thinges that being a metonimy off the preacher for preaching I put in the place theroff for if interpretation off the scriptures be the opening off them as Saint Luke declareth calling yt opening in one verse which he called interpreting in an other yt followeth that the word redd in respect off being preached is as it were shut and clasped for this cawse are the ministers off the word saied to haue the keyes off the kingdome off heauen for that withowt their ministery off preaching the kingdome off heauen ys as yt were locked Where he asketh whether I thincke the praise of preaching the dispraise of reading all vnderstand that it is easter to strike water owt off a flint then to finde honest dealing in this man For is this to dispraise reading to prefer preaching before yt In commending preaching before praying and priuate meditation of scripture more then priuate reading and practising more then both doo I dispraise priuate reading or meditation and yet the word off God is the same redd meditated and practised But this is a Popish practise which vpon that we prefer faith to good worckes concludeth that we make no account off good worckes Where vpon that preaching is called both planting and watering yt is shewed that as the hovvsbandman receiueth not fruict onles both be doone so no saluation to be looked for vvhere is no preaching he answereth that there is shewed how the word off God is not effectuall onles God gyue encrease which is to no pourpose For he not onely sheweth that but that God gyueth his encrease through their preaching and that they be the howsbandes by whose preaching the Lord maketh his orcheyard He answereth further that in this place there is no comparison betwene reading and preaching but considereth not how the scripture giueth this as also those before cited vnto simple reading therby singulary exalting preaching aboue bare reading So that although some off thes in some degree or all extraordinarily may be doone by bare reading yet by thes coÌ„mendations as it were by a more precious apparell is aduanced the grace off God more richly rached vnto vs by the hand off preaching then reading Last off all he answereth that tilling and watering may be applied also vnto
them His proofes comming a mile after are first that a mans meaning is commenly better expressed by writing then by word Which beside that it is confuted by commensense all men knowing that there is more certeine vnderstanding by word off mouth thē by lettres which if any doubt arise in any word can say nothing to the resoluing off it as yt is alledged it can not tend but to vtter subuersion off the lordes order and to proue that commenly and for the moste part it is better to haue reading then preaching The other is that writing remaineth as if the question were wether canonicall writing off the scriptures were better then preaching and not whether there be more fruict in bare reading that which is written then preaching vppon yt In this chap. which supposeth reading preaching beside straunge asseuerations and begging of that in controuersie there is nothing sauing that as absurdities are fruictfull this beggetteth other for pressed he shameth not to say that a child off 4. yeare olde is a preacher off the gospell And why not also a popeniay tawght to pronounce some sentences off scripture for the D. reason because preaching 10 Rom. 14 is all publishing off the gospell by externall voice serueth for one as for the other And beside that it is friuolous that off that God speaketh to vs by reading he would conclude that he preacheth to vs as though all speaking were preaching yt is absurd that he saith the scriptures are not preached in respect off him that readeth but in respect of the spirit of God worcking in the hearers For if reading were preaching yt should be preaching although it wrowght to condēnation wheras by the D. all which hearing the word preached profit not are not preached vnto Which as it is a grosse error so it is a shamefull derogation to the ministery off the word worcking mightely not onely to the saluation off the elect but also throwgh their fault to destruction off the reprobate To the places prouing that it is necessarily required in a minister that he should not onely be sufficiently learned but haue also the gift off vtterance he answereth not Towching that the priestes lippes should kepe knowledge and not his papers he answereth that he shall haue it readier in his lippes if he haue yt in his papers which is not to pourpose seing we spake off those which haue yt onely in papers Then he hath a childish cauill that if he reade he must vse his lippes as if the Prophet contented him self if the priestes were able to reade onely and did not note therby the aptnes to teach as by vncircumcised lippes is noted heauines or vnreadines off speache That a Preacher able for vtterance and learning to preach may reade a sermon if he meane priuately is not in question if publikely yt belongeth to the question off Homilies His case off a man pronouncing an other mans sermon withowt booke beside the fondnes is from the cawse That the reading of Ieremies and Baruchs bookes was preaching becawse the bookes were sermons ys to dreame and not to dispute The 15. 16. verses Rom. 15. make nothing to proue reading preaching but make rather against him in that the Apostle shewing that his writing to them was grownded off Gods calling sowght a more generall word off worcking for the gospell which agreeth to any action the minister doth by reason off his ministery ether in ministring the Sacramentes or otherwise The difference Sainct Paul putteth between his preaching is apparant althowgh the D. hath lost his sight That S. Paul ment he could not personally preach vnto them is his addition corrupting the minde off the Apostle For where shewing that he had great desire to be personally with them form spirit he was not absent he addeth for a cawse that he might preach the D. by this answer drowneth the effect in the cause ād so maketh the Apostle assigne cawses which cawse nothing nor haue any thing to be referred vnto Where I shewe that S. Paul vvriting is no more preaching then his hand or penne he vvrote vvith be his toung lightes or other instrumentes he spake vvith he answereth not for that as he saith it is a iest Where if his cause could speake it woulde complaine that he maketh no more account of it then to esteme her head stroked when it is cracked a sonder for the reason is of the efficient cause seing they can not be the same which can not be made by the same instrumentes To mainteine his ridiculous demaunde was not reading off Deut. preaching he should haue shewed that the reading off yt is rather preaching then reading off Exodus which he doth not Howbeit he concludeth that the reading theroff was preaching becawse the Lord commaunded that the priestes should reade yt that the people might learne to feare God which is as ridiculous For so peinting and grauing off the scriptures is preaching and peinters and grauers which sometimes knowe neuer a lettre off the booke shall be come preachers Considering that the Lord cōmaunded that the lawe should be grauen in the entrance of their land and writtē vpō their cytie gates and howses to this end that the people might learne to feare God c. After he asketh why Iosia should cawse the lawe to be redd if reading had not bene off at great force to perswade as preaching which phrensie belonging to another question is answered before Where he concludeth that for that reading is as effectuall as preaching therfore it is preaching beside the falsehood off the antecedent the conclusion is too bad for if the raine be as effectuall to cawse the fruictes grow as the sonne and meat as effectuall to perserue the life as drincke it followeth not therfore that the raine is the sonne or meat drincke Where vppon Nehem. 8. he would proue reading preaching there is not a word wheron it may be gathered but contrariwise they are manifestly distinguished in that chap. For beside reading there mentioned he setteth forth preaching by all these wordes that the Leuites cavvsed the people to vnderstand the lavv gaue the sense off the lavv cavvsed them to vnderstand the reading And where pag. 91. he saith that the wordes translated off some they gaue the sense signify nothing les thē that there was any exposition ioined with reading bearing him self vppon learners interpreters seing he seeth no further into this then with other mennes eies why should not he haue followed the iudgement off the Geneua translation which he pincheth they being learned men and moe in nombre then as I thincke he can alledge Which I say not to iustify that translation throwghowt or to shut vp the way gainst a better but because it seemeth an vnworthy thing to refuse their iudgement vpon bare autoritie I haue none off his learned men to looke their iudgementes howbeit for that I finde one off the Hebrues so expounding the wordes
I will not deny but some other deceiued by him might fall into that error Vnto whom althowgh I could oppose an other flatly expounding these verses off reading ioined with exposition the exposition off the former not shutting owt preaching yet I had rather my confutation stand of reason then autoritie Which is that the holy gost shewing in the 7. verse that the Leuites made the people vnderstand the law in the 8. sheweth howe they did it for saith he they redd in the booke off the lavv distinctly and in giuing the sense caused them to vnderstand the reading Wheras those wordes which are tourned gyuing the sense can not 〈◊〉 withowt a gap be caried to the peoples attentiue hearing considering that it is spoken in that verse off the Leuites withowt resuming off the people ether expresly naming them or obscurely by any article Which hard translations when an other sense doth well agree to the suit off the text are by all meanes to be auoided That thes wordes the Leuites cavvsed the people vnderstand the lavv be nothing els but they made them gyue diligent eare vnto the reading yt is violent For beside that it is against the generall rule not to run to a figuratiue speach when the simple will which the D. can not deny agree with the residue off the text especially when both this and the other interpretation they gaue the sense are confirmed by the practise off the churche yt is vnconfirmed by any conference off scripture or circumstance of place confuted also by that this word is expounded by an other they made them knovv the lavv Where the scripture speaking off one thing diuersly if it speake figuratiuely in one word vseth to speake properly in an other Where both by the wordes and practise of the church in other places I shewed the place off the Actes to be vnderstanded off reading and preaching iointly the D. not answering the reason saith that the place is euidently for him which is a begging off that in question that he can reade no interpreter which enterpreteth yt otherwise no one being browght which followeth that sense that the circumstance off the place maketh for him becawse Saint Iames vseth for a reason to proue that the Iewish ceremonies could not be forthwith abolished that Moses had by reading of the law euery Sabboth so great autority which is manifestly against him for it maketh more for the confirmation of S. Iames sentence that he was both redd and preached euery sabboth then if he had bene onely redd cōsidering that his authority was so much the deeper setled in the heartes off the Iewes Hytherto perteineth that in the end off his booke where he trifleth for that the Adm. expoundeth reading is not feading by this it is bare feading which is vnworthy answer considering it is receiued in all tounges often to deny that to be doon which is doon insufficiently as is before noted That also he saith there repeted p. 718. off dissent with my self for that saying there that bare reading withowt a miracle can not saue from famishement I say in an other place that the word off God is easy giuing vnderstanding to idiots is friuolous Considering that I spake off reading not vtterly separate from preaching Yf it be easy and gyue vnderstanding by preaching and reading togither although not so by reading onely that standeth which I haue set downe That he exclameth off that sentence as Papisticall c. I haue shewed how it is catholike and his Papisticall that maketh so easy a way to saluatiō withowt preaching yt is well with vs and the scriptures kepe their honour if they bring to the elect saluatiō vsed and applied as the order which the lord hath set requireth onles paraduenture he will say the holy Sacramētes leese their honour when it is saied they are not effectuall to saluacion without men be instructed by preaching before they be partakers off them Hauing shewed that bare reading off scriptures can not make vnpreaching ministers occupy any place in the church remaineth yet the reading of Homilies with the Apocrypha in which couer is sowght for thē against the sentēce of condēnatiō and storme of the Lordes wrathfull iudgement which will follow if they repēt not speedely for where thes dry nources haue no milke of their owne the D. will haue thē yet giue sucke although of the becastes of others But this kinde off milke hauing taken winde shall appeare not to be so fit to nourish as that it may come into the church for a supply of sermone yt is enough if as for support off the nource sometimes other then hers be taken so to spare the pastor hardly able euery day to preach the godly Christian strenghthen him self with them at home In which treatise first cometh the D. reason Augustin and Chrysostome preached sermons in their churches therfore we may reade sermons in ours The absurditie wheroff lest it should be hidden he hath made a great deale bigger for charged with it he answereth that the committing them by writing vnto posterity argueth that they thought them very profitable vnto the church so that his argument is they are profitable therfore they may be red publikely in the church As if there were no profit reaped by reading thē priuatly or as if al thinges profitable for the church may be red openly in yt where are browght in to publike reading whole cartlodes off disputations of the Catholikes with Papistes ▪ Anabaptistes Arians likewise of Ecclesiasticall stories a hudge heape and other rables of heritikes and schismatikes which being profitable haue the D. ladder to clime vp into the pulpit But one thing we may note ▪ what is that that August and Chrysostom writ their sermons therfore it may be they red them sometimes in the church If yow be in earnest in earnest yow are a sleepe For so far be yow from concluding iustly that it is meet to reade them in the church that yow conclude not they were so much as red I pray yow haue any off our homilimakers red their homilies in the churches I thinck not onles it haue bene since yow wrote to make yowr argument seeme good So in thincking to make one note yow make two shamefull blots yow see not why they may not aswell now be red in the church as then preached a pitifull blindnes wheroff the remedy if yow will open yow eyes followeth Now to come to the 3. chap. Tract 21. The first and second diu be not worth the answer the third is answered except that he saith the Adm. proued not the sufficiency off the scripture by 1. Cor 1. 18. 1. Ro. 16. becawse there be manifest places for that pourpose as though it were thus to be charged if it vsed places which proue that although not the fittest Where vppon that the Lord admitteth no instrumētes be they neuer so vile in the seruice of the temple nor trūpets in assembling the people but
absurdities laied vppon this foundacion as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit is as well gyuen to writers of homilies and their hearers as to studiers for sermons and those which heare them as if he had saied the Lord will giue testimonie to his word as wel by the meanes which mē haue deuised as that him self hath ordeined Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church as well as homilies if they should be shut owt because they are mennes interpretation considering that the preacher albeit he be a man yet in respect off his publicke ministery instituted and commaund of the Lord is as the angell off God yea as Christ him self which can not be saied off homily readers nor makers especially in that respect To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches before our Sauiour Christes comming and after towching homilies not vsed in the church and that in such time vvhen there vvas greatest vse off them he answereth that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader what likelihood there is that there were any homilies red in the church whē both holy and ecclesiasticall writers making mētiō of the forme of seruice of God in the church to the least and smallest ceremonies there is none diuers 100. yeares that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading which the D. matcheth with preaching the highest seruice off God in his church Where he saith that I condemne thargument drawen off mennes autoritie yt is vntrue I said it constreineth not And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter wherin many easely deceiued none knoweth the full off it and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth wherof he making profession to write can not withowt grosse ouersight passe by where he saith yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon that it shovld not be doon if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes and Apostles did it not it being put as a peece off the seruice off God and as the D. saith necessary ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes which is absurd or the D. which defendeth the vse off it He saith I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture vvhich is best he setteth his cause at my courtesie But if I graūt that he asketh he is nothing nerer onles he can proue that a learned homily is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote So that although they expounding darckly according to the time they wrote in be not so fit now to reade as an homily yet yt standeth still that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily Where he saith I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red I shewed both by scripture ād otherwise that they had thē not openly red when there was greatest neede off them Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred or now when they are the synagogue off Satan tha◠maketh rather for me They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ if they ment therby to confute that I set downe should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ and then too considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon off whom S. Luke maketh mention The testimonies off Denis and Clements Epistles red in the church to proue it vntrue which I affirmed off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone after the Apostles tmes are in that respect idle considering that I onely shewed that that coustome continued after their tymes which were the best and purest Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches vppon some occasion let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome and practise Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued that Denis epistles were red as Clementes yet that proueth not that they were red generally considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches But what if it be saied that they were red in those churches for that they were vntruly thowght of the Canon of the scripture Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike but Clements weighty and wonderfull Likewise that Euseb esteeming Clement the canonicall translatour off the epist. to the Hebrues yt is not vnlike but he had that epistle in like estimation Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames Iude and second off Saint Peter so he lightly held those for canonicall which were not yf I answer thus my coniecture hath better reason then yow yet shew and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not yow haue onely Soters which help nothing more being red onely at Corinth Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer that as other corruptions crept in then so the seed of this began to be sowen and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not Likewise it maketh against him that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies but in extreme cases off sicknes c. off the minister where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food The councell as it were in a great drowght or snow when all is couered will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance Beside that it is the obiectiō which I myself im̄ediatly after preuented my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree and no cawse off corruption which is grosse beggery considering that I shew how vppon occasion theroff in time came in the popish Legend and Gregories homilies which iustled owt the holy Bible Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers forasmuch as there were then learned preachers able to make homilies which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible he answereth that there is no cause to suspect them but the reason he can not answer After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly for if the autority off all those which established that order be not able to make yt good much lesse his alone and being a party in this cawse he owght not albeit a singular mā be witnes Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea ordeining that nothing should be red in the church but the canonicall scripture he answereth the councell ment nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures which is an open and shamefull corruption for
or not at the churches vvill Moreouer if he say that it is necessarie ād commaunded a◠some tyme and not at others vvhat a miserable case is the churche in that hath no certein addresse owt of the word vvhen that necessitie and commaundement beginneth and when it endeth vvhen this office is in season vvhen owt of season Lastly forasmuch as S. Paul speaketh of offices thē in the chuch not of those vvhich came after as the Ans him self is forced to confesse the Archbishops office must needes haue bene in the Apostles tyme Which if it be true those times being as the Answ hath borne vs in hand so vnlike ours the persons in the church then off so different dispositions from those now the place also the gospell being thē in the East partes where now it is in the West it must needes follow that this monely office off the archbishop which ebbeth and floweth being fit for the Apostles times is by all likelihood vnfit for ours His distinction vnto the second proposition is that an Archbishop in respect off the ministerie off the word and Sacramētes is necessarie alwaies but not in respect of policie and gouernemēt Which is asmuch to say as an archbishop vvhen he is an archbishop is alwaies necessarie for the church For when he hath not the owtward gouernement then by yowr owne rule he is no archbishop then which speach what can be more absurd And of this answer followeth that there is a time vvhen the Pastors haue nothing to doo vvith the externall policie and gouernment off the church but onely to administer the word and Sacramentes and then the church shal be an heape and not a bodie a confused multitude not an orderly societie Yet in the next section he gyueth the gouernement off the church and order vnto the bishops and archbishops and will haue them part the stake off the Apostles autoritie vvhich they had in the church And as this answer is absurd so yt ys contrarie to that he hath set downe in his former booke that not onely the office off the Archbishop is necessarie but most necessarie I saied before that the Apostle speaketh to the Ephes off mynisteries vvhich haue to doo vvith preaching the vvord but neuer added as yow in yowr Doctors booke and here and not those which haue to doo with order and discipline Therfore I had nothing forgotten my self if be would haue vnderstanded that which is plaine to all the world for thes two may well stand together the Apostle spake there onely off functions conuersant in the vvord and the Lord spake of those functiōs vvhich Preach the vvord and administer the gouernement for the word onely doth not seclude gouernemēt from those ministries but shutreth owt all ministeries not preaching as that off the Elder and Deacon And yt is one thing to say the Lord spake there onely off preaching mynisteries an other to say he spake there of ministries onely preaching which me thincketh yow could not be ignorāt of Therfore Saint Paul reckening vp the ministeries there which haue together with the preaching of the word the administration off gouernement and making no mention off the Archbishop supposed to haue both yt followeth that yow are yet behinde with yowr answer I haue not confuted my shadow but yowr fond phantasie For if S. Paul speake in that place of those that haue the ministerie off the word and Sacramentes onely and not off those which haue to doo with the order of discipline yt followeth that Apostles haue nothing to doo with order and discipline forsomuch as they are amongest those which S. Paul there speaketh of If this cogitacion neuer entred into yowr head how cometh it to passe that yt ys found in yowr papers Lastly yow say the administration off discipline and gouernement in the Apostles is fallen vpon the Archbishops and bishops the ouerthrow off my whole assertion Yf a man will belieue yow speaking he may otherwise here is nothing but I saied yt And surely yt must be a very simple hould that is cast downe with this paper shot of bare affirmatiō but if yow will weigh a litle what yow say yow shall see that if there be any bullet at al in this yowr saying yt is charged wholy vppon yowr self For before yow haue saied once or twise that the office and autoritie off an Archbishop was in the Apostles tymes Which if yt be true how doth the Archbishop receiue his auauritie off order and gouernement by their death for hauing yt before he cannot receiue yt by their departure Ether therfore this is vntrue that the archbishop exerciseth the same autoritie which the Apostles or that which yow saied before that the office off the Archbishop was in the Apostles time or els this third is true that he hauing in the Apostles time autoritie which he hath now by their death obteined beside their former autoritie that which the Apostle had also Which how neere it pricketh at the papacye I leaue to euery one to consider But yf the Archbishop will succede vnto the administration off order and gouernement off the Apostels why sheweth he not his euidence why bringeth he not forth his recordes of bequest off resignation that it may appeare he is not entred as a trespasser In that sense which I haue shewed in an other place I graunt it true which Ierome saith that all bishops succede vnto the Apostles but shew me who speaketh any thing off the succession off the archbishop vnto them Nay verily that is flat against the archbishops autoritie For if euery bishop haue that autoritie in his church which the Apostles had in all the world it followeth that there nether needeth nether can be any archbishop to receiue any theroff And that if any archbishop chalenge a greater autoritie then is in any one bishop he pulleth to him self greater autoritie in his prouince then euer the Apostles had in the world And by the same reason that they be Lordes and superiours ouer bishops they must be lordes and superiours in their prouince ouer the Apostles them selues if they were aliue Considering they rule ouer those which in their dioceses haue the same autoritie that the Apostles had This I speake not that I thinck the Bishops had not this autoritie from the very birth and foundacion off the function as towching the gouernement off their churches or that there came any autoritie vnto them by the Apostles death which they had not in their tymes but that yt may be vnderstanded that if there were any such succession vnto the Apostles gouernement as the D. phansieth the bishops are the right beyres and that not certein other some shut forth but euery one as Ierome saith Although if tharchbishop should haue an Apostolicall autoritie in gouerning his prouince it hath appeared and more shall God willing that the Apostles gouernement was far from that principalitie and rule one ouer an other which tharchbishops chalēge ouer
an archbishop is a newe ministrie is declared Where he saith if no man appoint new offices but he which can gyue giftes to discharge them it should follow that no man might appoint offices if he vnderstand as he owght to doo ecclesiasticall offices it is that I mainteine if he leap ouer here as his coustome is to ciuill I haue shewed that the reason is not like Half this diuis is in the tenth off this chap. where yt hath answer My argument here a man may not ad to the ministeries because he may not take avvay is fyrst off thinges apparantly like as those vvhich are likewise forbidden likewise punished Then it hath this grownd that they being contrary fall into one subiect except one be naturally in it as heat in fire Which I am constreined to speake of because I haue to doo with such a trifler as would snatch at this exception although nothing to prurpose So that as he that hath autoritie to make lawes hath also to abrogate he which may absolue may condemne he that may binde may loose so he that hath power to ad hath also to deminish But marck vvhat the D. answereth The question is vvhether men may ad to the ministeries the meane and argument wherby I proue they can not because it is not lavvfull to deminish now when he answereth that men may ad doth he not gyue that for answer which is the question and take that for his proofe which is to be proued And as for that which followeth the added ministeries may be helpes to ministeries instituted off God yt is likewise in controuersie being as doubtfull as the rest And the Papistes may as well answer thus for the multiplying off their Sacramentes as the D. for encrease off the ministries But forsomuch as thes are yowr commen answers here is nothing new or to be wondred at Vnto the second proposition he saith men may take away offices off God which are temporall that is enduring for a time but not perpetuall Wherin he is greatly abused For nether any man nor all men in the world could haue put downe the temporall ministeries off Apostles Euangelistes c. which the Lord ordeined onles the Lord him self had withdrawen them and therfore they so long remained in the church vntill he by their death withowt raysing vp any seede vnto them by distribution of those giftes wherby those ministeries might be furnished declared that they had an end The Ans in defense of this forged Doctors is like vnto one which to defend him from the kolde couereth him self with a wet sacke For before his ignorance might haue in part excused him now by this maintenance off his answer he hath doubled his folie For first to make him self cleane he defileth as much as he can Maister Caluin and the Bishop off Salisburie both which he nether sheweth to haue vsed this Clement and if they doo yet their vse of him or such like is so farfroÌ„ lessening his fault that is maketh it more appeare For they vse them agaynst the Papistes which for the moste part attributing vnto them as great weight of autoritie as to the scriptures themselues are so set vp Which they doo also therby to driue from them that if they can not be browght from the confidence they haue in such becawse they are false at least they might be browght to mislike them becawse they make against them Likewise when they alledge them they gyue them such an eare marck that all may know them forged But the D. doth vse them against those which hunger for proofes at his handes owt off the worde off God in the matters debated which haue that estimacion that is meet should be had off such filth as that is which could not giue credit vnto this autoritie withowt renouncing the profession off the gospell which we haue in commen And in steed off giuing him his eare marck he putteth a night cap vppon him to hide it with for in steed off alledging off him owt off the epistles where he appeareth with his hornes and clawes plainly he maketh him come owt of Polidore as disguised owt off a straunge contrey and becawse Polidores wordes did not muffle him sufficiently in saying that this was conteined in a litle summarie off Christian religion he that Clement might goe the better vnknowen added in a booke intituled c. which I merueil with what face he citeth Polidore for as if there were no difference between his and Polidorcâ— wordes And he is not coÌ„tent onely to haue alledged the autority but as in a certein and vndoubted victorie he triumpheth and insulteth vpon his aduersarie sarie saying Peter was not Antichrist ergo the name off an Archbishop is not Antichristian In the second place he saith he vsed them not â—â— sure growndeâ— but as probable testimonies off antiquitie of the name Wherin his hand being with the Papistes is against not onely the manifest truth but all those godly writers which reiect those epistles as vpstartes and lately forged vnder a hedge For against them all the D. saith that it is very probable that they haue that antiquitie which they pretend Thirdly he compareth them vvith the Canons attributed vnto the Apostles wheroff albeit diuerse â—â—e falsely fathered yet those creeping in at sundrie times were â—â—â—wâ—â—standing some 100. yeares before this drosse came â—â—to the church Wheruppon also the corruptions in them although they â—aâ—ter the walles off the cytie off God yet they rase not the foundacions off it as this Clement doth nether are they alledged off me as he pretendeth but with atteint off the basenes off their birth And for my alledging off Higinus I refer me to the indgement off the reader what a cognisance I haue gyuen him there to be knowen by His last refuge is that yt is like Polidore ment some other booke not now extant For confutation off which vnshamefast speach to what end should I other alledge the latenes off the time wherin he wrote or vnfoundnes off his iudgmeÌ„t wherby he hauing not made half a turne from Poperie vnto the gospell might by all likelihood think that those were Clementes epistles The weakenes off his owne proofes doo betray him as those that make more against then for him For if he will make difference between a grosse epistle and a litle booke the precise distinction tendeth rather to proue a booke then an Epistle And for the lenght it is manifest considering that Tully calleth such long letters a volume and in two or three epistles drawen owt beyond the ordinary correcteth him self as breaking the bondes off an Epistle The same may be saied both off the matter handled and off the manner off handling Which being nether commen nor familiar if a man will speake as the Latines whom Polidore followeth vse they were fitter for a booke then an Epistle That Clement scarce knowing what difference there is between the nominatiue and accusatiue case yt was
Timothe a simple bishop as left in one cytie But it is good to obserue by the vvay how the Ans building vvith one hand ouerthroweth vvith the other For let all men that haue but a graine of salt iudge how likely it is that Timothe was Archbishop wheÌ„ so many writers both ould and new yea some in those times that archbishops were speaking of him not one calleth him archbishop but all bishop as in his treatise may appeare but thus their tounges must be confounded that build vpp Babylon As for Titus vvhom Erasmus calleth archbishop to make his autoritie of any vveight he muste needes raise that title ether of some name giuen vnto him in the scripture or of some effect which he was knowen to excute proper to an archbishop or els off some auncient writer But he could not raise it of any title the scripture giueth him there being none such nor off any thing Titus did forasmuch as there is nothing doon off him vvhich the Ans affirmeth not to be commen to euery bishop nothing prescribed to him which was not prescribed to Timothe whom Erasmus calleth simply bishop nor off any auncient vvriter there being none browght nor as I am perswaded can be browght therfore it is cleare that Erasmus calling Titus archbishop hath no weight as one vvhich spake according to the corruption off time vvherin he liued The rest of this diuis is answered before for the next let yt be iudged how yow haue ouerthrowne that alledged towching Timothe and Tite being Euangelistes I will also refer to the readers iudgement what vnlearnednes yt ys to confute autoritie by better autoritie and in vvhat place the D. vvill haue vs receiue mens autoritie vvhen he vvill not haue them controlled by other men How by this meanes he that hath the first place to speake may stop the mouth off all that follow forasmuch as yt shall be vnlawfull for them ether owt off the autors vvhich the first speaker alledged or any other to oppose a contrary sentence How also this being so vnlearnedly doon off me is notwithstanding learned in him which hath vsed it diuers times I leaue also to be iudged how to the pourpose he hath alledged thes examples off Iustice and cheif Iustice seing I helped him with this kinde off diuision and yt might haue easely appeared that my argument vvas that forsomuch as the Scoliast called them simply bishope therfore yt could not be thowght that he esteemed them archbishops vvhich is opposite meÌ„ber in this diuision Last of all how absurdly ys it saied that he which calleth an archbishop a bishop speaketh properly WheÌ„ he that hath litle more then learned his GraÌ„mer knoweth that it is a Trope vvherin the generall is taken for the speciall which is contrary to proper speach To the first reason I haue shewed vvhat mighte lead Erasmus to cal Titus archbishop ouer Crete and not Timothe ouer Ephesus To the seconde I am content that my reason off framing titles according to times be nothing worth yf Erasmus in a matter off diuinitie and hauing the vaile off corrupt tymes to hinder his sighte could not be deceiued which erred in many thinges and in those he sawe was ofte more Cretian theÌ„ Christian The third Erasmus did not gyue Titus a title according to the custome off that age wherin him selfe lyued for that there was then no bishop of Crete â—s there was of Rome when Vincentius lyued ys sensles Consydering that my answer is apparante that in speaking of Titus he applied him selfe to the coustome which had preuailed in all places off calling the bishops off the metrapolitane cyties archbishops which this answer towchech not Let him shewe one approued autor for the name of archbishop or patriarch once onely vsed in Eusebius time or before to note the superioritie off one bishop ouer all his fellowes and wee will all clap our handes vnto him if he can not then yt ys shame to say those names were vsuall in Eusebius tyme. That Nicephorus spake no otherwise off Victor then yow haue set downe yt is all one to me which pourposed to shew that he spake otherwise then ether Eusebius or the trwth would suffer hauing regard vnto the tymes wherin he lyued So that my vntrue reportes off autors are such as they are no more beficiall to my cawse then if I had vsed their very wordes For my answer made vnto Volusianus and Erasmus that men vse to speake and to thincke for the moste parte of thinges past by the measure off thinges present yf yt had no examples to warrant yt with yet yt is so manifest and sensible that I durst barely leaue yt to the conscience off all and yf the D. would gyue the rule of his toung but a litle into the hand of his conscieÌ„ce I dowbt not but he would also confesse yt Howbeit we haue a manifest example in the Centuries which confessing there was no Metropolitane in Cyprians time call him Metropolitane Another in Cornelius whom M. Philpot calleth patriarke of Rome wheÌ„ all know that ther was no patriarke many yeares after him Laste off all when yt happened vnto me to call Cyprian Metrapolitane which am an enemy to that estate as I am also charged therwith by the D. following therin the custome off the tymes which folowed how muche more might that befall to others which had no such combat with that office That next conteining vaine excuses to salue ether his ignorance or his vnfaithfullnes I haue answered His escape that Iames called bishop by Eusebius to whom may be adioined Ierome yet might be Archbishop I haue coÌ„futed The plenty off testimonies for the Archbishop browght now hideth not his pouertie in his fyrst boke for all may know that this haruest cam in sithens For the expositioÌ„ of Ireneus which interpreteh they euery one seuerally yf they seuerally ordeined bishope euery one in his circuit so it be vnderstanded with the churches consent as is before declared I am well content Yf the error off my argument had bene so grosse as yowr sight had perceiued yt I had bin sure to haue heard of yt Whatsoeuer and how many cawses soeuer yow assigne of appoincting an archbishop yet this is a perfect diuision off the subiecte that forsomuch as the Archbishopricke if any owght to be muste needes be both in some person and place not found by thapostels ordination which knewe the best gouernment nether in that person nor place both most fittest and moste likest to receiue yt yt muste folow that yt owght not to be As for yowr exception off the time fyrst yt is your manner that yow might be thowght to haue store off answer to make fowre off one for wheras the tyme and persons to be gouerned the suppression off sectes and peace off the church â–ª are put for seuerall cawses yt ys manifest that one time maketh no difference off gouernement from another
of an Archbishop prouoked by me you can not shew off his allowance And yet becawse yow put me in remembrance off the story vvitnes wheÌ„ I considered that nether the reste of his writinges nor other writers off the same auncientie and quarters as Ierome and Augustine mention an Archbishop yt made me suspecte greatly that there was corruption in that place After seing howe proudly and swellingly he speaketh off bishops and howe basely off kinges saying the bishops are gold and kinges in comparison off them but lead and kinges muste put their nekes vnder the knees of the bishops and kisse their right haÌ„d which speaches are â—aâ— vnlike Ambrose stile of kinges considering also that Erasm nippeth that booke in the head I assure my selfe that yt is a false Ambrose aÌ„d therfore that testimonie to be of no force Wherin I am yet further coÌ„firmed by Ambrose owne testimonie who saying it is comely that there should be equalitie in the churches which taketh away bishops dominion For seing that can not be vnderstanded off the whole companie of the church yt is manifest that it muste be restreined vnto the mynisters theroff and sauing this aduantage I answer to the next diuis that yt shall appeare after how straunge the name off the Archbishop vvas at that time For that alledged out off the Centuries Ambrose was Metrapolitane off diuers churches ioined together besydes that yow take that for graunted which is in coÌ„trouersy that is to say that the name of Metrapolitane and Archbishop be all one yow owghte to haue shewed the reasons vvherby they say so For seing they haue not that they vvrote by reuelation in a matter of controuersie they owghte no further to be belieued then they shew reason Otherwise I can oppose also autoritie which saith in plaine wordes Ambrose vvas a bishop not of a vvhole prouince or of many cyties but off one onely citie whose testomony yet is so muche more off credyt then that off the Centuries as by a neerer sighte into Ambros workes which he reuewed he was better able to giue iudgement in this matter then they vvhich occupied in reading off so many could not performe that diligente in all vvhich he in that autor he especially laboured in That I said of the Archbishop if any vvere ruling the action wherin the bishops vvere ordeined and after the action ended hauing no more autoritie theÌ„ the reste is vnconfuted by any writer yow alledge Caluin the ignorance of whose writinges with all otther yow obiecte vnto me doth not onely not speake against yt but saith in some respect more then I. For I speake this onely of the Archbishop alledged owt of the counterfaict Ambrose but he as I haue shewed saieth generally of those auncient times that the office off the Archbishop vvas rarely vsed And that I said not as yow vse withow reason but vvith those reasons which yow lifting at can not moue For vvhere I shewed yt not hke that one Archbishop ordeined bishops but other bishops with him vvhose voices he gathered the auncient councells expresly forbidding that yow say yow shewed yt not straunge at that time for a bishop alone to ordeine ministers Which thing howe vntrue yt is I refer my selfe to that before said And if yow had shewed yt yet yow making difference betweene a minister and a bishop in prouing that one bishop onely ordeined mynisters haue not proued that one bishop ordeined bishops And in saying that Ambrose is to be vnderstanded of that done by all bishops in all places yow make them all gilty off breach off canons off the generall councells in that behalfe Which how vntrwe yt is may likewise appeare by that before said Then how vaine is yt that for that the people had to doo in the bishops election one bishop alone withowt other his fellowes did ordeine After he asketh VVhere is nowe my distinction of election and ordination Firste I declared that they being for the moste parte distinguished are sometime taken for one Secondly I haue vttered no word wherby it is once towched Thirdly yf I had taken yt away yet he same toucheth not this matter as he saith but nether sheweth nor can shew how onely hauing nothing to answer he speaketh in the clowdes where he is so far from being vnderstood of others that I thinke he vnderstood not him selfe His answer Ambrose mente not off the Archbishop in the prouince where him selfe was bishop is firste vpholden by flatte begging of diuers thinges in controuersie as whether an archbishop and metrapolitan be all one whether Ambrose were metrapolitane and whether being he had autoritie him selfe to forbid such disorders Secondly that he alledgeth to remoue yt from Ambroses prouince maketh rather against him For if that corruption he complained of were in all places then it was in his prouince also Where he saith I am deceiued that I thincke he wrote his booke for his owne diocese onely my wordes importe no such thing yt is enowghe for me yf in the prouince where he was this corruptioÌ„ had place the further he will strech those wordes the depelier he woundeth the gouernement off the archbishop But this is more then dutie vnto that counterfaicte Ambrose What truth this deuise hath I am coÌ„tent yt be iudged of the reasons before alledged my quotacion off the Centuries was easie to find if yow had not helpe of the table the time yt selfe would quickly haue directed yow yt is in the beginÌ„ing of the chapter which yow alledged so that if yow had red any more then serued for yowr tourne yow should haue found how he affirming that in those daies there were but three principall degrees off the â—lergie bishop elder and deacon alledgeth for profe Ambrose The name off Archbishop owte off Sozomen maketh not againste this considering that he writing abowte the yeare 430. calleth Simeon Archbishop according to the time wherin he vvrote and not vvherin Simion liued Nether doth the place off Epiphanius alledged after owte of the Centuries make againste this For albeit the name of Archbishop was in his time vvhich liued ether in Ambroses time or somewhat before yet there is no likelihoode that it was then receiued in the latin churches seing none off their writers of those times once make mention off that name And it is certein that it being a greeke name was firste receiued in the greeke churches and Easte partes or euer it came into the latin and weaste Nowe for this great shewe the A. bringeth into the stage they are scarce worth the looking on they shall haue therfore a shorte answer their autoritie shall be coÌ„sidered after being here altogether owte off place and contrary to the litle off his chapter and according to the oulde coustome off repetitions propounded after I here therfore deale onely with the names And firste for that off Metrapolitan yt is shewed that it is not the same in signification with the Archbishops yt
thapostels times at Philippos where Paul expresly saluteth diuers bishops at Ephesus froÌ„ wheÌ„ce certein bishops sent for came to MiletuÌ„ Likewise in the church off Thessalonica there were diuers Presidentes the same by the D. diuinitie that Bishop or Archbishop And as it was in those churches so yt ys like to haue bene in other off greate resorte to heare the worde off God and habilitie to enterteine a more plentifull ministery Nether let him as he is wont oppose vnto the manifest wordes off the scripture Ambroses exposition vpon the place to the Philippians nor that which goeth vnder Ieromes name vpon the same For as for Ambrose a childe may see how violently he forceth the texte and what inconuenience he runnethe into to make yt agree with the coustome off his times wherin this order was for the moste parte worne owt And as for the other he is a couÌ„terfaicte and so marked not onely because he contrarieth that which Ierome did plainly teache but also for that the forme off writing is farre off another complexion Yt can not be denied but that this order of God was strickeÌ„ at by diuers canons off Councels and that as this was the firste attempte which the deuill gaue to abridge the nomber off Bishops in the churche so yt was more aunciente then that other off robbing the villages and small Cyties off their bishops Vpon what rotten groundes this abuse crepte in cometh afterward to be considered here yt is to be noted that this corruption was not so generall but that often times yt admitted exception And notwithstanding bothe custome and Canons in that behalfe good men vpon occasion made no conscience to ordeine twoo bishops of one citie Euseb maketh mention of Narcissus and Alexander Bishops at ones in one parishe and if yt be true which he reporteth that the same was by reuelation from heauen yt ys a good argumente that this voice was as yt were a repeale off that custome which had bene browght in contrarie to the firste institution off god Yt is writteÌ„ off Augustine that he was made bishop off Hippo bothe by the instante requeste off Valerius then another bishop there and by the consente off the Metra politane Bishop off Carthage And albeit in consideration off the canons made to the contrarie Augustine was lothe to take the charge yet instantly required he accepted yt Augustine him selfe also was off aduise that in those places where was a Donatiste Bishop and a catholike if the Donatiste returned vnto the vnitie of the churche then he should be receiued into the felowship off the bishops office with the catholike bishop Where he putteth onely thes exceptions if the people vvill suffer yt yf becavvse yt is not accoustomed the people vvill beare it Wherby is cleare that notwithstanding it was forbiddeÌ„ by canons yet he thowght yt not vnmeet to haue two bishops in one church if the people would beare it and if he were of this aduise notwithstanding the couÌ„cels to the coÌ„trary how much more would he haue thought it meet if the church had required aÌ„d made sute for it Also it is not to be forgotten that although this corruption off gyuing the name bishop to one in a church from the rest to whom it did off right belong be auncient yet godly men misliked it and by all likelihood broke it of Which Ieromes wordes do apparantly import this coustome vvas in the church off Alexandria from S. Mark vntill Heraclas and Dionysius For onles there were some change then why would he not rather haue saied from S. Mark vntill his time considering that all that time there was continuall succession of church and bishops Therfore belike those godly men seing the mischeif like to ensue of that coustome and vnderstanding that thinges owght to be called to the apostolick institution changed that coustome Furthermore it is diligently to be considered that this order off hauing one onely in euery church to haue the name of Bishop ouerspred not the church soudenly and at a clap but entred by litle and litle so that it is like there were diuers ages past or euer this had a generall passage thorowgh all the churches in the world By all which it may appeare how the Ans is abused in saying it can not be shewed from Christes time that euer there were two bishops in one church Thes thinges being thus laied let vs now come to Cyprians Testimonies Caput 3. VNto the firste diuision I haue answered In the second to proue that Cyprian speakethe off an Archbishop the D. concludeth thus yt is the principall office of the archbishop to prouide that peace and vnitie be kept in the churche c. but the office off him whom Cyprian describeth is to keepe peace in the churche therfore Cyprian speaketh of an archbishop This argumente is caste in the same moulde that those which he hathe vntrwly compared my reason vnto before and yt hathe almost more faultes then wordes But that the simplest maye see his dealing yt is to be vnderstanded that as the pretence off institucion off the Archbishop was to keepe peace and suppresse scismes so the onely pretence off translating the name off bishop from manie in one churche vnto one onely was the same as appeareth by the place off Ierome after discussed To let passe therfore that I haue proued and will after more appeare that there was then nether Archbishop nor Metropolitane and for disputacion sake to imagin Archbishops then yet when bothe the name and office Cyprian speaketh of agree vnto him which gouerneth in euerie churche or to speake as the D. speaketh diocese and the office onely withowte the name agreethe to the Archbishop yt must needes be meeter â—o refer Cypcians wordes to the Bishop then to the Archbishop seing that there be more cordes off reasons to pull them that waies then the other At the leaste yt is cleare that the Argument off the A. is faultie seing yt was not onely the principall office off the Archbishop to prouide for peace c. but the same also was the principall office off the Bishop as that vnder pretence wherof that kinde off Bishop was instituted Where he cometh to his oulde hole that althowghe the name be not there yet the office is I refere my selfe vnto that written before in that be halfe Howbeit here yt appeareth how he spake withowt booke saying all writers before the Nicene Councell make mention bothe off their names and offices when as Cyprian one off them hathe no worde off them Where he saithe Cypr. speaketh off Cornelius who had gouernement off all the prouince that is the question which becawse he coulde not proue he taketh graunted Where he addeth Cyprian had the charge and ouersight off all churches in Aphrica and for proofe alledgeth the 4. booke 8. Epistle he is abused for Cyprian dothe saie no suche thing He speaking there off himselfe and
by that Beza writeth vpon thes wordes he gaue all these vvhich belieued in him this dignitie or prerogatiue that they should be called the children off God. Now what this dignitie and preeminence was may easely be seen by that the bishop of Rome hauing preeminence or dignitie ouer the bishop off Constantinopel Alexandria c. had nothing therby more then they sauing onely the first place in their meetinges Seing therfore thes wordes translated to haue power signifie nothing but to haue honour which consisted onely in hauing the highest place by thes wordes off the Councell groweth nothing to the Metropolitan but onely to sit in the highest place at meetinges This may also appeare by the same h Councell where yt is said that if there rise disorder in any churche vvhich is not compounded it ovvght to be decided at the prouinciall Councell which was therfore to be houlden twife euery yeare in which faultes vvere to be corrected not by the Metropolitane but by the bishops together And becawse the Councell here referreth vs to that accoustomed before yt is to be considered what that was so far as we haue testimonie The bishops assembled at Nice browght their quarrels one against an other and offred them to the Emperour which they would not haue doon at least so generally if there had bene any such order taken off referring their debates to the Metropolitan The Emperour likewise receiuing their bils and answering that it perteined not vnto him to decide those matters sendeth them not to their Metropolitanes to be iudged but adiourneth them to the iudgement off god Yet yf there had bene any suche autoritie ecclesiasticall off the Metropolitanes the Emperour as he was very religious in those obseruations would not by all likelihood haue failed in that Likewise writing ioyntly to Alexander bishop and Arius Elder off Alexandria amongeste other thinges he saith it vvas not meet they should rule so great a people being deuided amōge them selues Where it is to be obserued that howsoeuer thes wordes so great a people be taken whether for the churche off Alexandria or for all Agipt c. the Bishop gouerned not alone but by cōsent and aduise of the Elders of that church Then if the Ans will refer this gouernement to the whole countreis off Aegypt Lybia c. and take it in that signification he doth for bearing dominion and commaunding the rest not the bishop onely but euery Elder off Alexandria had commaundement not onely ouer the Elders but ouer the bishops them selues off other churches Which if it be absurd that whereoff it followeth must be likewise This is all that I finde the Nicene Councell gyueth to the Metropolitan aboue the rest how litle it is and how small a part off that the Answ presumeth let the reader iudge That he owght to be no bishop which is made withowt consent off his Metropolitan is a very seely prerogatiue seing yt was the order of the church in those times that all the bishops off the Prouince shoulde be at the making off a Bishop And as the election off the people was voide if the Metropolitane were not at it so was it also if there were not three bishops at the least present Let vs see now whether the practise of the Metropolitanship will fall owt any more fanourable for this pretended iurisdiction Athanasius foloweth on whom the D. woulde fasten this archbishopricke firste because Ischaras submitted him selfe vnto him by lettres As if euery one which hath offended an other doothe by his submission acknowledge him an archbishop whom he hathe offended and as if Ischaras owght not to haue doone as muche vnto any bishop in the Prouince yf he had belonged vnto his parishe as he did vnto that of Athanasius Secondly becawse Arsenius and those off his diocese wrote lettres off submission vnto Athanasius The print off the diocese is so deeply set in the D. heade that what soeuer he meeteth with he turnethe into yt For there is there no mention off diocese but off a citie As for the submission he maketh yt is not to Athanasius but vnto the ecclesiastisticall canons onely he acknowledgeth him Metropolitane and that withowt his sentence he will make no Ecclesiasticall decree perteining vnto the churche which we denie not For we confesse that there were then Metropolitanes and as Arsenius coulde not make anie decree to wching the whole churche in the prouince no more coulde Athanasius withowte Arsenius as hath bene before owt off the former booke declared But that he was subiecte vnto Athanasius there ys not a worde the cleane contrary is to be plainly seene For Arsenius in his fare well writeth thus vve and those vvith vs salute the vvhole companie off sacred men vvhich are in thy iurisdiction by which wordes he manifestly exempteth him selfe frō the iurisdiction off Athanasius Wherupon yt muste folowe that the office off Metropolitaneship in those daies implied no subiection nor autoritie to commaunde ouer other bishops in his prouince And Athanasius in calling the bishops there his fellovv ministres often times declareth in what place he had them not as subiects but as his fellowes And that the A. escape not with that Popishe shifte that Athanasius therby did declare his humilitie yt is to be seene in that booke that the other bishops doo more then half a dosen times call him their felovve mynister barely withowte other title Now if Athanasins not off right but off his greate humilitie called him self their felowe mynister yet the other bishops in so calling him when they were subiecte vnto him and at his commaundement are to be charged not only as voide off Christian humilitie but also as forgetfull euen off all commen ciuilitie and good manners That added off Athanasius visiting off Mariotes and the Prouinces there as they are called perteineth nothing vnto this question for there were no bishops in that place and what he did in that behalfe did not as Archbishop but as Bishop that territory belonging vnto Alexandria And not onely Archbishops but bishops yea Elders visited the parishes off other bishops As for that the parishes in the territory off Mariotes had neuer◠bishop but belonged vnto Athanasius beside that I haue shewed that corruptions had greatly preuailed at that time it is to be obserued that it is there put as a strange thing and vnwonted that one bishop should haue so large grownd For vnles that be the autors ende there was no cause why he shoulde haue vsed that kinde off speach Which may better appeare forsomuche as Socrates speaking off this storie interlaceth the same sentence when as speaking off the places off bishops els where he neuer mentioneth any such thing The canons off Arles Councell off that attributed vnto the Apostles and of Antioch follow The first hath nothing not graunted and serueth for filling onely The second supposed of the Apostles ys the same with that of Antioch That off
one Then let him answer whether thes sayinges a bishop and an other minister off the word are all one a bishop and an other minister off the word be not all one be opposed and set one against an other If he can deny none off these then it ys iustly concluded that this inuention off man which hath made a bishop to differ from another mynister off the worde is againste the truth Because I loue not that compas off wordes which the D. delighteth in I concluded shortly and yet sufficiently to the vnderstanding off any that dothe not willingly blindefolde him selfe My argument ys The best deciding off controuersies vvas in the apostels time but that vvas not by archbishops vvherfore the best deciding of cōtrouersies is not by archbishops for proofe that yt was not by archbis I set downe that there were no archebishops then Vnto this deformed face off reason as he calleth yt let vs see how formally he answereth Firste he saith we are not bounde to the forme of gouernemēt vsed by the Apostels and therin referreth him selfe to that he hath and shal saie where also let him take his answer Secondly that althowghe the Apostels had not the name off Archbishops yet they had the office which I haue shewed to be a shift of the Papistes Then yt is to be obserued how he proueth that thapostels had the office of an archbishop and in what good logicke Archbishops haue the direction off many churches the ending off controuersies c. the Apostles had the same therfore the Apostels were archbishops by this reason a man maie proue not onely diuers but contrary thinges to be all one seing contraries haue diuers thinges wherin they agree So that first this kinde off reasoning hath the fault of those ridiculous argumentes which the D. propoundeth pag. 316. secondly yt taketh for graunted which is the question For he presumeth that the Archbishops office kepeth the church in godly quietnes which is debated Thirdly to proue the Apostels autoritie in the churches which is not in question he hath made a greate muster of testimonies to proue the archbishops not a word After he cyteth Ambrose to proue that Apostles are bishops Yt is greate merueill if he kepe good order in the church for whose establishement the Answ is constreined thus to confound and make a broile off all and it is before confuted Howbeit admitting that the bishops succede vnto the Apostels in preaching the word and gouerning the church I haue shewed how that is a whip to driue the archbishop cleane owt of the church off god And this is here to be obserued that when it is saide the bishops succede vnto the Apostels c. that must be vnderstanded off the Apostles bishops and such as they instituted For what bishops haue better right to succede the Apostles then they But those were as I haue shewed bishops off singular congregations bishops which had no superiotitie ouer their fellowbishops as Ierome doth confesse In the end he saith If I can proue by good autoritie that one was gouernour amongest the 12. Apostles it shall not seme strange to haue an archbishop ouer a Prouince If vpon this that one had gouernement of 12. assembled in a particular place he can conclude that there should be one gouernour off the ministers in a Prouince I can with better reason conclude that there may be one to gouerne all the ministers in the worlde For if because one gouerned twelue therfore one may gouerne all in Prouince then becawse one may gouerne all in a Prouince I will conclude that one may gouerne all in the worlde As towching the number off those which are gouerned there is not so much difference betwene the ministers off a Prouince and the ministers off the whole church as betwene 12. and the ministers off some whole Prouince Towching the distance off place yt is as much betwene a Prouince and the wole extent off Christianitie as betwene a particular place off an acre breadeth and some Prouince Wherfore this reason is more fauorable to the Pope then to the Archbishop Peters superioritie shall be after seen where also this sentence of Ierome shall be answered Onely here let it be obserued that the Answ hath borowed this reason off Pope Anaclete which alledgeth it to proue Archbishops And it is browght also of Pighius against the protestantes which denied that there owght to be any archbishops as shall appeare herafter more at large The place off Caluin is handled afterward Bucers vpon the Ephes I haue answered That owt off his booke de Reg. Ch. the same in effect hath the same answer Howbeit it is here to be noted how the D. thorowgh greedy desire off seeming to say somwhat putteth downe with one hand that he setteth with the other For to the maintenance off the archbishop and bishop here be browght two testimonies one of Ierome thother of Bucer cleane contrary If Ierome say true that the superioritie off one Bishop ouer an other is by coustome not by institution off God then is that vntrue pretended out off Bucer that it pleased the holie goste yt should be so For if it be off the holie goste it is the institution of god The D. therfore must forgoe one off thes seing that both will neuer drawe in one forowgh The contrarietie with my self which the glosse chargeth me with is for that pag. 349. I saied owt off Eusebius that as long as thapostles liued if any vvent about to corrupt the doctrine they dit it in the darck and here owt off the Apostle I affirme there vvere heresies and schismes Wherin what contrarietie there is and what a trifler this is let the reader iudge sauing that if there were any contrarietie it is not mine with my self but Eusebius with the Apostle The Answ would gird vp his Archbishop in smaller roume that he might seme les growen owt off faschion He saith therfore the archbishop when a schisme or heresie riseth determineth yt according to the law established by the church Wherin he speaketh absurdly considering that the church can make no other rule wherby he may procede in decision off schismes and heresies then in referring him to the rule off the scripture So the summe off this answer is the Archbishop may not determin the matter at his pleasure but according to the word off god As thowgh the question were by what rule controuersies should be decided and not by whom For when the controuersie at Antioch was referred to the Apostles c. in Ierusalem it was not permitted vnto them otherwise to iudge off it then according to the word Now therfore let it be obserued how aptly the D. answereth To abat◠the swelling autoritie off the Archbishop I alledge that in deciding cōtrouersies yt is not permitted to any one to determin vvhat is the vvill off God in that behalf The D. saith the archbishop must determin by the word off God.
allegde Iacobs tvvo vviues to proue he might haue as many as he liste should ansvver that althovvgh he might haue tvvo yet yt folovveth not that he may haue as many as he liste proueth that one may ouerthrow one vnlawfull thing by an other withowt teaching ether off them lawfull which the D. calling yt a ieste answereth not And yet yt ys manifest that thes he his reasons both here and there which may in deede worthely be iested at albeit there is no worde in the example I browght that carieth the countenance off a ieste Vnto that I browght of greater necessitie off vnitie in the vvhole church then in ane Prouince there is nothing answered here he saith I am greatly deceiued considering that the Pope claimeth his temporalities by Constantine and his supremacie by Peter If he listed he might haue vnderstanded that diuers Papistes which handle that matter off supremacie alledge Constantines donacion for his temporalities onely I said not that the Pope maketh his claime onely by Constantine Althowgh yt may be shewed that Sozimus who yow say claimed the supremacie ouer all the church made his claime not by Peter nor by any autoritie off scripture but by the Councell off Nice confirmed by the Emperour Constantine Where he saith my supposition touching one Caesar ouer all the realmes which haue churches is but supposed I meruaile that he is ignorant that Constantine in the ende off his reigne had the Empire whole in his handes and that all the churches had rest vnder him that the Emperour off Rome is called lorde off all the earth Lord off all the vvorlde So that if he would haue appointed one bishop ouer all prouinces vnder him the bishop of his appointement should haue had more then double the iurisdiction that the Pope euer had when his kingdome was largeste the Pope him selfe making no further claime then ouer the churches which bare the name off Christe as Pighius him selfe confesseth Wherupon foloweth that his answer often alledged to put a difference betwene the archbishop and Pope the one taketh it to him selfe the other hath yt of the gifte of the Prince is not worthe a strawe Where I shew that the sufficientest mynister finding enovvghe to doo in one onely congregacion no man can be hable to vvelde the gouernement off all the churches in a Prouince he answereth that lacke off will or skill of some busie Pastors to dispatch controuersies which them selues be autors off letteth not but that bishops and archbish may be sufficient for their charges I make my argument off all and he answereth off some I of the moste fyt and sufficient pastors and he off vnfit If he haue any better answer wee will attend after yt if not then the archbishop is here againe taken by defaulte And when ether he must needes let his Archbishop fall to the ground or els denie that men off greatest giftes haue found enowgh to doe in the gouernement of one congregacion being both vnwilling to graunte the one and ashamed to denie the other yt is manifest he crept into this corner When I shew that as the patrons off the Archb. may alledge the supplie off Archdeacons Chauncelors c. in their absence so the popes aduocates may pretende his deputacion off Cardinalls c. he answereth that the office off bishop and Archbishop may be well excuted so farre as yt is conuenient for the estate of the church which ys that in question Where lykewise otherwhere I alledged to this pourpose that his bishop and Archbishop hauing their charge assigned by him the same vvith a commen pastor the gouernement onely excepted are therby bounde to pastorall preaching and ministring off sacramentes in all the parishes off their iurisdiction vvhich is impossible he staggereth to and fro saying the bishop hath to procure his diocese ys muche as in him lieth wheras he is charged for laying hand to more then he can gripe He addeth according to the lawes of the churche he is afraied to say off god that they preach where and when they see yt moste conuenient by that rule neuer also and no where yf in their sighte yt be conueniēt That yt foloweth not because the archbishop is bound to minister the word and Sacramentes therfore he muste doo yt in all the parishes of his prouince which followeth well For the bishop appointed by the holy ghoste is commaunded to feed the whole flocke committed vnto him euen with the same feading Saincte Paule fedd the Ephesians that is with preaching so plentifully that all might vnderstand the whole will off god Wheruppon followeth that his charge is not to feede where and when he seeth good but to feed and that to sufficiencie all the people off his charge as he that shall answer for the bloude off all which perish for wante of sufficient instructiō by his mouth And if there be as he saith the same deutie off the Archbishop towardes his charge as off the bishop towardes his the same foloweth in him for the charge off his Prouince being a lyke committed vnto him by the same reason he is bounde to preach in one parte he is bounde in all if not in all in none Now to returne where he saith preaching ordeining mynisters and suppressing herysies is not committed vnto the Archdeacon Chauncelor c. but such as by rules off the church are permitted them firste yt is his continuall faulte that he should proue by the lawe off God he proueth by the lawes of our church yea and by those which remained off the estate which was in poperie I mighte much better alledge the lawes off the reformed churches which haue abolished them And if he wil againste the reasons browghte oppose autoritie and binding me for my proofes within the compas off the worde off God vvander him selfe in the broade feilde off mens lawes in question yt is time to shuite vp the disputation which is mainteined by such grosse begginge Secondly how will he proue that he may sett ouer his charge vnto an other or that yt ys more lawfull to committ other thinges perteining vnto his office then those which he reserueth vnto him selfe Or if he may commit yt whether he may commit yt to tharchdeacon so farre vnder degree of the mynisterie off the Archbishop to whome those thinges belong or to Chauncelors c. which haue no entrance into the ministerie by any ecclesiasticall institution all which are shewed vnlawful in the booke of discipline lately set forth And why may not the Pope cōmmunicate his charge with his Cardinales as well as the archbishop with his Suffraganes c If he can shew no word why he may doo it but it be onely vpon constitution off the church that he casteth the ouerplus off his bourdē vpō the neck of his Chancelour c by the same reason the vniuersall bishop may discharge him self vpon his deputies Where he saith the vniuersall bishop can not ordeine
bishop all men see that in taking Ierome by the lips withowte considering his meaning the contrary off that the D. gathereth doth folowe that euery minister is a bishop but not euery bishop a minister For that which is conteined vnder an other is more particuler and les then that vvhich dothe conteine as because the kinge is conteined in the magistrate therfore euerie Kinge is a magistrate but not euerye magistrate a Kinge And albeit yt be no meruaile althowghe he which striueth with the trwth shoulde be stricken with suche a guiddines off spirite that he shoulde not be hable to discerne not onely betwene the morning and noone daies but not between noone daies and midnight yet because the smattering in logick which this booke maketh shew of might be so much as not to be so grossely abvsed in casting with my selfe wherfore he shoulde alledge this in the ende yt came to my minde that by thes wordes the elder is conteined in the bishop he woulde haue vnderstanded that the elder is conteined vnder the bishops gouernement If he meane so there is as great ouersight in his grammer as before in logicke ogicke considering that the toung as I suppose will bare no such sense certeine ys that the autor will not suffer yt For he assigneth as reason why thapostle did not speake of the elder for that an elder is conteined in the bishop and therfore speaking of th one he needed not to speake of thother Wheras if he should meane that he would not speake of an elder because he was in the gouernement off the bishop to order as he thowght good yt had bene a witles saying vnworthy of Ierome considering that thapostle speaketh of a deacon which is vnder a bishop Which shall be answer to his like dealing with Chrysostome That Ierome speaketh of an archdeacon in that place I haue before declared But the D. asketh why I went about to deface Ierome if he nether make for our ether bishop or archbishop for that there coulde be no other cause but this I haue shewed that I saued him his due and conuenient honor the cause why I gaue the reader warning to trie him by the rule off the worde off God was because he seemeth in some places to alowe that distinction off bishop from an elder which is diuers from the institution off the Apostell After he setteth downe his places oftén before repeted and asketh whether I thincke those meÌ„te of euerie pastor in his parishe I haue shewed how althowghe vpon occasions before recited there were not in euery congregacion at that time a bishop yet there were in diuers he saith further that the pastor in euery congregation from the beginning had his autoritie ouer his flocke withowte anie suche constitution I graunte he had his antoritie but not so soueraigne as after he obteined by this euill custome considering that he had an equall parte of gouernement with those ioined with him in the administracion off the churche And this althowghe yt be debated betwene vs yet the D. frameth his answer as thowghe there were no suche thinge For albeit for the moste parte there were no moe pastors theÌ„ one in a parishe yet there were moe elders And albeit Ier. speake of those elders which had the ministerie of the word yet â—â—at excludeth not those which were onely for gouernement Where he saith moreouer the care of the whole flock was committed vnto him I see not how he can conclude therof that the bishop was ouer a whole diocese suche as ours yt might rather be concluded that he had charge off one onely congregation considering that althowghe him selfe alone were thowght hable to care for one congregacion yet there is none which would thinck him self alone able to care for a whole dioces And beside that the churches should be in miserable case if none should care for theÌ„ but euery bishop in his dioces let the D. stretch owt the bishops iurisdiction as far as he can yet I haue shewed owt off the Emperours letters to the bishop of Alexandria that the elders off the same church where he abode had aioynt care with him ouer all Which is also confirmed by the testimonie the Ans hath alledged owt off M. Fox where not the bishop onely but his church also is saied to haue the ouersight off the precinctes which perteined vnto him And Ierome him self shewing that the elders ovvght to gouerne in commen vvith the bishop can not be thowght to giue vnto the bishop the whole care of the church as peculiar vnto him alone onles a man will make him contrary to him self For if they haue the gouernement in coÌ„men with him they haue the care in coÌ„men for somuch as there can be no gouernement withowt care So that where Ierome saith the care off the whole churche was coÌ„mitted vnto one yt must be vnderstanded so as yt may be leuell with his other saying especially wheÌ„ he saith that a bishop differed from his elder onely in ordinacioÌ„ Which may appeare by the practise off the churches about the time wherin Ierome wrote For it was ordeined that the bishop should not iudge off any matter but in presence off his clergie if othervvise his sentence should be voide Wherby appeareth that an other canon permitting the iudgement off subdeacons and other inferior orders vnto the bishop alone must be vnderstanded alone withowt other bishops not withowt other assistance Which is also cleare considering that the Councell opposeth the decision off their cawses vnto that off elders and deacons which was to be doon by six and three bishops beside the bishop off whom they were accused This gouernement in commeÌ„ appeareth also in that vvhen one off the clerckes vvould goe ether to the vvidovves or virgines he must haue as vvell the leaue off the elder as off the bishop Likewise that it was ordeined that the deacon should acknovvledge him self as vvell the minister vnto the elder as to the bishop Here it is also to be obserued what that ordinacion was wherin onely the bishop differed from the elder how poore a thing For beside that it can not be vnderstanded off the election which was commen to him with the people and the eldership yt was decreed that vvhen there vvas a bishop to be ordeined tvvo bishops should hould the booke ouer his heade one other bishop should pronounce the blessing aÌ„d the rest of the bishops vvith thelders present should all lay on their handes So that ether there was an other order at Rome theÌ„ is here appointed or els the bishops preeminence was onely to pronounce the blessing and hould the booke the elder hauing as good right to lay on his handes as he Where he saith his place against the Luciferanes with an other owt off his epistle is more cleare he bringeth no reason at all nether are there any wordes to enforce that Onles by church one vnderstand dioces or Prouince such as ours
word and to hould cōmon consultation that therfore he estemed the whole dioces off London or Prouince off Canterbury where there are many thowsand parishes might conueniently grow into one particular bodie to be gouerned off one Pastor Truly this is but kolde reasoning Where I charged him with vnfaithefull dealing for leauing ovvt that vvvich Caluin noteth that the office off Archbis and Patriarck vvas rarely vsed to couer his vnfaithfullnes he alledgeth the later edition which hathe not that sentence Which is partly answered before but ad this also that euen the noted booke which he followed had thus muche off that sentence Althovvghe it may not be passed by in this disputation There wanted onely this it vvas very rarely vsed and that throwghe the printers fault considering that withowt yt there is no sence nor knot with that before or after Therfore if there had bene any loue of the trwthe in hym meeting with suche a gap he would haue sowght to haue made yt vpp in the later edition His shift Calu referrethe that to the patriarcke and not to the Archbishop because ther was smale cause off exercising his authoritie is onely said and in deede cōtrary to thanthors wordes ād meaning Wordes for that giuing that note off his disputation there which is bothe off the Archbishop and Patriarke yt muste follow by all likelihoode that the note also is of them bothe Against his meaning manifestly for he placing both their offices in propounding matters vnto the Synodes which for their hardnes could not be ended of few and gyuing them nothing to doo more then their fellowes but that it muste follow that the oftenest Synodes wherin the archbishop was president being rare and but twise a yeare his office also was off very rare vse Wherby appeareth that Caluins minde was to shew that the archbishops and Patriarches office endured onely but the time off the Synode which ended he had no autoritie but in commen with other bishops vntill the next synode So that althowgh they were not chosen at euery action yet Caluins iudgement standeth that both those offices were but off rare vse The D. onely trifleth in Hemingius For we affirme degrees off ministrie off the word graunt also that there were Patriarches but denie them to haue bene immediatly after the Apostles which Hemingius doth not as he vntruly saith affirme That that church abolishing the Patriarch and Archbishop kept the distinction betwene the bishop an other ministers off the word which the church browght in is confessed but that it owght not so to be is before declared althowgh the bishops there in respect off the height off ours are but dwarfes His answer to that Hemingius saith that S. Luke 22. putteth a difference betvvene the office off a Magistrat and ministers and that dominion is altogether takē avvay from these is very fonde His reason owt off the Hebr. is before answered so that his vnfaithfull dealing in Hemingius remaineth Yf there be no circunstance in M Fox alledged by the D. which gyue further answer I stand to that before made and refer it to the readers iudgement especially seing to that alledged where M. Fox flatly condemneth the degrees off primates metropolitanes and archbishops as ambicious the D. can not answer In saying he vvent about to corrupt him vvith his praise I doo M. Fox no iniurie yt being no fault to be assaulted but to be ouercome Whether I doo the D. any let the reader iudge The maintenance of the reply to the Bishop off Salisb answer towching certein Articles against the D. Chap. 4. Diuis 1. pag. 422. THat the Bishop is directly against the D. in affirming that there be no Apostles Euangelistes or Prophetes ys manifest his shift wherewith he would accord him self with the bishop is is before bewraied That the taking away off the Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes hindreth not the perfect nomber off preaching ministers hath bene declared beside that yt is grosse to say that the diuision is not perfect because certein partes of it are not now extant as if the law of deuiding extended not it self to thinges both past and to come He that parteth the church into that before and vnder the Gospell doth he therfore make an euill particion because there is now no church before the Gospell that is vnder or before the law Here the D. leaueth the bishop to his owne defense towching that he affirmed a bishop not conteined in the place to the Ephes The diuision there being giuen as hath beue saied off those ministers onely vvhich vvith gouernement handle the vvord both here and in the fift diuision the D. doth but trifle in the examples off the elder and deacon seing we hould and will God willing shewe them not to haue to doo with the word Wher hereuppon he woulde bring in his archbishop and archdeacon yt is but repetition off that before where he hath āswer Yf there be a preaching elder not cōteined vnder a Pastor seing he maketh a Pastor and Doctor all one onles he fly to his phansie off Apostles c. there is by his saying a preaching ministerie not tawght in the scripture If there be let him shew it Where I gaue the Catechising vnto the Pastor I will haue it ment where there is no Doctor otherwise I haue in the second edition amended that assigning yt as more proper to the D. So that the Doctor being instituted to the Ephes he whom they called Catechist which tawght the groundes off religion ys likewise albeit S. Pa. calleth al māner of preaching Cathechising That publike reading in the church is as solēne a matter as Catechising the youth is a peece off the former phrensie reading is as good as preaching already confuted That a reader hath bene counted necessarie is saied withowt proof and if it were it was falsly counted there being no necessarie ministrie not specified in the scripture And when they were first notwithstanding them the church ministrie was as hath bene shewed deuided into bishops elders and deacons so that they came not then so much as into account of the ministries Yf they be conuenient at any time that there is scripture to warrant them euen as the Sexten that kept the church dore key hath bene shewed That the archbishops archdeacons and our bishops haue no succour by this being supposed the principalest ministeries and therfore such as owght to haue bene commaunded hath bene likewise disputed where thes colewortes are answered That the Deaconship as I take yt is no gouernement but a simple seruice is idly alledged cōtrary to nothing here set downe Yt may seeme against that alledged before where I comprehend it under the ministers which gouerne onely which I did not to set it in the same kinde off gouernement with the elders but for that yt ordering the church money and ouerseing the poore might in a generall signification be so called If the D. can
vse is shewed to haue continued in the Deacons diij We are also confirmed in this refusal by autoritie off a nombre off the reformed churches dcxviij off the Godly writers which haue particulerly spokeÌ„ against ether all or some of these offices As Ierome 598. M. Wicleue 616. Luther 617. Barnes and Hooper 526. Bucer 556. 567. 662. Musculus 549. 598. Caluin 566. 613. c. 629. The bishop off Salisbury 568. Beza 505. Bullinger 426. 567. Hetherto belonge â—â— that the answerers reasons in this cause are drawen almost 〈◊〉 from the Papistes Namely from Pighius Harding and other â—â—pistes against the Catholikes 414. 426. 446 573. 616. 622. And from Harding against the bishop of Salisbury 425. 430. 453. 472. 497. 500 599 601. 611. 612. Ecclesiasticall election IT owght to be with consent of the church first for that yt ys the institution off god This is shewed owt off the 14. Actes 194. Here is disputed off the signification of lifting vp of handes 199 Also out of the 8. 1. Corinthes 209. and Actes 6 134. for that the lightest charges off the church were not doen but by consent off yt where the exception taken from Pigghius is answered Likewise owt of j. Actes 12â— Considering that in that Election which was made immediatly by the lord the churches iudgement was not passed by This ys strenghtned by Nomb. 8. 220. Leuiticus â— Nombers 20. 222. Hetherto perteineth that which the D. alledgeth to the contrary owt off Titus 1. and Timoth. 1. 5 â–ª cclxv drawen from Pighius cclxx Whereto belongeth that the scripture sometime attributeth to the chief in an action that is coÌ„mon to moe then to them confirmed by the manner off speaking both in scripture and otherwise also by the iudgemeÌ„t of Caluin Musculus 196. Beza 135. Bullinger 197. Further that which the D bringeth owt off 13 Act. taken from Hosius cclxxxiij Likewise that the form off the Election should be other now then in time off the Apostels ccxxxv Where the number off Christians and throwgh the nomber tumult in elections is confuted Also that of the difference of religion and maners betwene Christians then and now taken from Hosius ccxlj â–ª Where is handled the shutting forth of papistes Dronkards and Whoremongers Further that the estate off the church was not then popular ccxlix That the confirmation off the election by the magistrat altereth not the forme cclxij Hether also refer the counterfait Ambrose drawen from Pighius off the diuersyty off gouernement off the church then and now cclix This is confirmed of the effectes off the church Election because yt breedeth assurance off the minister in his calling maketh the people more obedient to him as Musculus confesseth cclx Causeth the Godly to loue him 〈◊〉 and bridleth the Hypocrites from outrage against him … xix Hetherto refer that the D bringeth off the supposed contention that this will breed cxxxiiij cxlvij cclxxxviij Likewise of the comparison betwene the effectes off our bishops elections with those off the churches cxlvij. ccxxvij Likewise that the errors off the churches election may be commodiously remedied by the churches hard by by the Synodes and if they faile by the magistrat 23â— That it is the churches liberty as Musculus saith cclx Also that the consent off the parliament touching the bishops election ys not the churches ecclesiastical election Where the D doth but mocke the church ccxxv That certein thinges ar variable in this election hindereth not the perpetuitie off the churches coÌ„sent cxxxvij That the ignorance off the church is not such as both hinder the churches election cxi cxlvj. ccxxix Nether corruption of religion such cxivij Nor of affections ccxxix This is also shewed by comparison off the churches election with that which is coÌ„monly doen in ciuil affaires ccxxiiij confirmed by Peter Martyr ccxxviij Last off all this is confirmed by ould custome ccxx by Councels Nycene cclvij cclxxxiiij CoÌ„stantinople Carthage Toledo alledged page xxxvij off my first book off Paris Orleans with diuers other ccxx Emperours decrees cciij Ignatius cciij Cyprian cxxv ccxâ—ij Where is the D. exception taken owt off Pigghius Gregorie Nazianzene Ambrose ccixxx Chrysostome cxciij Ierome cclxxvj Augustin cclxxviij The exception against which testimony is takeÌ„ from Pigghius Oecumenius ccij Luther ccxiiij Archbishop off Reines â—usanus Celestinus Leo ccliij Off the autorities which he vseth that off Chrysostome vppon the 6 off the Actes is answered cxciij That owt of his book de sacerdorio and S. Iohn drawen both from Hosius cclxxxviij ccxcj The rest ether are nothing to purpose or are shewed flat against him for vs as the Canon attributed to the Apostles off the Ancyran and Antioch can Councel ccxvâ—ij Caluin cxxvj. ccxvj ccxxij Zuingâ—â—us and Bulllinger cxcvj Beza cxciâ—ij Musculus ccixiij and toe example off the Tigurine election ccixv Differing in some point fâ—â—m vs are shewed greatly against him Examinâ—â—â—on an other part off election That the ecclestasticall ministers examinatioÌ„ is instituted in the word ys shewed owt off Acres j. cxxj 6. Act cxxvij. 1. Timothy iij. cxliiij Whether perteineth the example off Ieroboam clxi Althowgh they be knowen yet meet they should be offered vnto yt cxxij yea and examined althowgh some good knowledg be before exxviij That it owght not to be made by one onely as appeareth by the former testimonies Hether belong the reasons of ignorance corruption in religion and affection noted in the former title as those which are common to this aswel as to the churches consent in election This is explaned by comparison off Ciuill affaires res cxxâ—x c. clix Confirmed by example off S. Paul xvj Act. cliiij Whether perteineth that alledged of the D. that S. Paul was receiued at the testimony of Barnabas 160. Especially this examination owght not to be made by the Archdeacon in the election off a bishop cliiij And that the receiuing of a bishop at his testimonie came from Rome cxliij That in the examination with vs the church ys vtterly shut owt howsoeuer the D pretend otherwise cliiij Knowen adulterers owght not to be receiued into the mynistery clxxvj Nor ministers fallen into Idolatry cxlv The law of Moses in that behalf owght rather to be obserued vnder the gospel then vnder the law cixxvj The endes hereof clxxiiij Here is handled the example of Iudas clxviij clxxiiij The Pharisies clxviij Off S. Paul and Peter clxxiiij Likewise are handled S. Peters denial clxxvij and the gentiles Idolatry clxxxiiij Increased by the D. to the end that the Popish Idolatry should semeles Likewise that the decree off restoring ministers fallen into Idolatry was not of the Councel of rebaptization clxxxij That they which are nue come to religion owght not to be receiued to the ministery off the word clxxx That a prouf may be taken off the bishops habilitie in teaching before he be ordeined cl That if they be not able to teach they owght not by the word to be ordeined ccclxvij Hether perceineth that
him that faulteth that waies to be no meÌ„bre off the churche S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse neiter dothe he cut them of from the church but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed as yow would beare vs in hande and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches had not giuen the occasion of suche departure the departure had bene more vntollerable And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte so muche yow encrease off the sinÌ„e of the bishops which withowt iust cause gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the preaching off those brethren for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow And vvhere yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes or the Sacramentes administred in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes or like vnto them bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither And therfore if yow did purposely put that Or rather then and then whilest yow vvrote your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren And iff yow did not put yt purposely but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the vvord off god is preached and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely I would gladlie know off yow vvhat difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the churche off God seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe Because it is your oulde wont and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie withowt any proufe owt off the word off god yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche yf yow bind so harde and locke so fast yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god that the conscience which onely looketh vnto the word off god seinge it selffe in that daunger might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered The glosse and the Text varie here For the one in saying that it standeth me good name vpon to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche The other by saying that theÌ„re are not so manye and that they are not iustified do the indirectlie confesse it And if yt were not confessed the thinge is so notorious that albeit I name them not yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe in that which hathe so manie witnesses And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England so it standeth not by any diligence good foresight or discipline off yours that the churche swarmeth not with them seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche vvhere vvith the leuaine off their false doctrine they may sowre not one towne as it vvere thre peckes but vvhole shires as it vvere a vvhole heape or fatte or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul vvherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement he answereth that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement and broching new opinions which is no answer to the question For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions yet vve owght to correcte our oulde errors as often as we are made vnderstande them So that vnles he will saye that those which beleue the gospell are vvithowte the daunger off error in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them boothe which are absurde it muste needes folowe that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader vvhiche vppon that vve haue chaunged Iudgement vvoulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell and established in a certeine order off gouernement maye with owte feare off suspition off that liÌ„ghtenes which he dooth surmise displace the former order and place an other Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is betwene thes sayinges the churche can not longe continevve vvithovvt common vvelthes and the churche maye be established vvithovvt a Christian magistrate Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth But he shoulde vnderstande as longe as their be magistrates althowghe they be not onely vnchristian but Tyrannicall and persequuting yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance so ouercometh all their malice that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche The answer which his glosse asketh for towching churlishe ansvvering althowghe yt deserued none is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante but I referred him in the answer to the seuenth article Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off â—he churche lately set forthe where this is answered