boast of disputation or say they haue prospered by it for we neede not to feare them God be blessed nor they to bragge of any winning There neuer wanted yet neither euer shall want both learned and vnlearned on our side whose spirits they shall not be able to resist writing preaching disputing they are the Gospels weapons and waies to build by Popery must take soÌ„e other course as yet in all times they haue done which holde that plough O that for further proofe of this point meÌ„ would be content without preiudice to read the Acts monuments of this our natiue countrie and English Church where we liue marking with a minde desirous of trueth what answers haue beene made by simple women maides and girles vnto great Bishops and Doctoures in causes of religion faith to the great astonishment of their aduersaries the high glorie of God seene in their weaknesse so strengthened by him But nothig can bee more grieuous to that Church then to graunt leaue to doe this which surely bewrayeth they are afraide Hence come their lies and slaunders invented against that book which would full soone be discried of vs woulde we reade it If any haue beene in Westminster ball at tharraignment of a misdoer we willingly heare him a whole day to tell vs the manner of it what was obiected what answered what replyed and what concluded yet we will not read with our owne eies hauing it so notably penned for vs the conventings of holy Christian men and women before their iudges for matter of faith and saluation We wil talke of disputation disputations and ô that men might be allowed to speake freely without daunger of lawe what they are able and when the time was for theirs to speake what they would or coulde and wee stoode at the barre in bolts and yron to answere their obiections and profound learning we will not nowe reade what was then done said on both sides Surely I will say of that booke what I wish tried that after the ground of holy scriptures it will yeelde the greatest contentment Men shall see men women shall see women age shall see age and youth youth brought to the triall howe they answered howe they suffered howe flesh startled howe the spirit conquered and in a worde howe God shewed his mercie and power infinite waies If we finde they speake well we may embrace it if otherwise leaue it The Lord hath giuen vs wisdome and reason and of his grace also I trust to be able to discerne if we would reade O why should our enemies hoodwincke vs so that we must neuer see but with their eies If the charge of this book be to much for one an whole parish might ioyne together and vse it by turners as leisure serued M. Sonne I see you are ready for eueuery way and therefore hauing gone thus farre in triall of what you could say and now being come to our iourneys ende I will goe no further with you at this time but reserue the particular pointes of controuersie till wee haue some fitte leisure and opportunity againe S. Good Mother when and howe you please But nowe ere we part I beseech you let me speake something to you with out offence I will not say much M. Speake on you shall doe more Then as yet you haue done if you any way offend me S. 〈◊〉 religious â—â—ite or a verâ—ous child to 〈◊〉 mother My suite is then most deare mother with a melting heart of an humble childe that you would vouchsafe to thinke of that which hath nowe beene spoken as also of this feare full course which you haue to long liked of in not comming to Church not receiuing the sacrament not hearing Gods word not obeying the lawes of your dread and gratious Soueraigne and of your natiue countrie It woundeth your credit and estimation with the best it hurteth my father daunteth your children blemisheth your house and wrongeth your friendes both neare deare most grieuously But ô father I say againe my heart bursteth and bleedeth to see howe he is eclipsed by it in comparison of others to whome he is no way inferiour either in birth in liuing in wisdome and experience or in any gift in body or minde neither hath his countrie that good from him or he that good from his countrie that might be had if you were reformed For how may he be thought so fit to rule others abroad that cannot be obeied of his owne at home His children therefore want him his friends want him his seruants want him yea he himselfe wanteth himselfe many times to his griefe Other things also I could name that better may be conceiued in your tender loue towardes him then by me expressed at this time O mother pardon your owne flesh in speaking thus boldly to you and knowe that it is but a part of your selfe that speaketh to your selfe in tender louect dutie When first my father matched with you he hoped of streÌ„gth countenance euery way to be increased to him both by your selfe and your excellent qualities wherewith God hath indued you and by your friendes and house to whome by this marriage he should be vnited not of any abashment and abatement in al these to him and his poore children the pledges of loue betwixt you And thus might it be it you would but alas thus is it not because hitherto you would not A fewe false charmers haue sunke deeper into your heart with their deceits then all your best friendes can with their faithful aduertisements And what is this els in you and others of your perswasion but that which euer hath bin done by the olde serpent the head and guide of these charmers In the Acts of the Apostles we read that the Iewes hating deadly the trueth of the Gospell preached by the Apostles and desirous to vexe them for it deuised this as the best means to stirre vp certaine honest and devout women against them which women should vvork with their friendes to expell such preachers from amongest them Nowe why women but because Satan hath euer had his aduaÌ„tage against this weake vessell why devout women but becavse a religious minde meaning well yet waÌ„ting knowledge is both quicklyer deceiued with shewe of religion and hottelier pursueth what it once beginneth doing more hurt in that false deuotion then many others not so well thought of And why honourable women but that might being added to blinde zeale both by power and example Satans cause might goe forwarde These charmers saith the Apostle againe shall still be creeping into houses lead captiue simple women By which often repeated name of women in the scripture all good women are effectually warned to beware Were there cause for you or any others thus to doe it no way could stand with religion to diswade you and in my selfe to you Mother it should be a double sinne because I am yours and aboue all wordly fauours ought to wish your eternall
so soone but I will enioyne you to speake plaine and to tell me in earnest what you meant by safety S. I beseech you good mother let me goe no further in this matter my comming home to see you would doe me litle good if through my folly and vnapt speech I should procure your mislike M. I tell you againe it shall not bee so and therefore neither stand with me any longer nor feare but tell me your meaning S. Surely vpon your kind promise of pardon I confesse I meant safetie from mis-instruction in religion whilest I was young and easy to be led by those whome I reuerenced M. Ah sir nowe you deale plainely with me indeede and I see as plainely the fruites of your vniuersity companie and of your fathers care euen to make a conceited young man of you before you haue ripenesse of yeares to discerne in matters of such weight as religion is S. Good mother for mine vniuersitie companie my fathers most louing care I blesse God and thanke them both as I am bound neither shall you by gods grace finde me conceyted oâ— head strong aboue my true knowledge mine harty praier is for humility and against pride M. Sonne it is well said and so praying assure your selfe god will heare your request and grant your desire but yet for your knowledge in diuinity I hope it is not so great but that a poore woman that hath neithr Logicke nor Rhetorick yet a little latine may argue the case with you and aske you of your newe doctrine that I see hath gotten some fauour in your eies howe you dare take liking of it and rest vpon it since by all truely learned it hath beene called and still is reputed and helde for very feareful and damnable heresie Alas poore boy if thou shouldst miscarrie thy father should answer God for thee and what a griefe it is to me to thinke either of the one or the other let my teares testifie S. Deare mother quiet your selfe and thinke of neither for by Gods grace there shall be no cause M. No cause when now being but a youth in comparison you are as full of heresie as an egge is full of meate and so like to tast either euer or long of that liquour that first hath bene powred into you S. You are tolde it is heresie by those that are not truely learned as you tearme them but ignorant and so lead you and others awry with them but god is able in his good time to let you see it is trueth and no heresie M. That should be a great chaunge sonne as I thinke and because I could as willingly heare you as any and you seme to thinke the matter plain I pray you let me heare what you can say and what our new masters haue taught you S. Your firme and feruent loue to me deare mother giues me encouragement to speake boldly vnto you what I am able yet within tearmes of duty and reuerence euer due vnto you but if you will charge me to speake any more double againe vnto me your comfortable promise of pardon in all things for my hart trembleth for feare to offend you any waies M. Sonne I doe double it and assuredly promise it therefore be not afraid your respectiue affection to me I note it shall not hurt you S. My answere then good mother as neere as either memory or my note booke which I haue also about me will serue shall be the verie wordes of such worthy men as haue written on our side that therby both the want of authoritie which is in my youth may be supplied with their credit and the profit of reading our bookes which papists make so dangerous better obserued by as many as are not desperatly sicke of rebellion and contumacy against the Lord. First therefore touching the name of heresie Heresie which euen now you mentioned and I know you often heare out of their mouthes who resort vnto you thus hath it beene answered on our side many a time and often As the accusation is bitter and grievous yea euen such as the old father S. Ierome saith No man ought to be patient no not in the suspit oÌ„ thereof so is it not new or straunge to haue gods truth slandered wiâ—h this name and therfore it is a good caueat not to be carried away with the name till we haue well examined the matter and found it to agree with the name and rightly to be so called which that we may do we must knowe that for iust proofe of heresie two things are neccessarily required first that it be an Errour in matter of Christian faith secondly that it be stoutly and obstinatly maintained otherwise an errour in Gods truth without obstinate maintenance is not an heresie S. Austen saith therefore Errare possum haereticus esse non possum In an errour I may be but an heretique I cannot be meaning because he intended not obstinately to maintaine an errour Whervnto is agreeable that good saying of S. Hilary Illis in eo quod nesciunt potest adhuc in tuto â—sse salus sicredant â—â—lar de Trin. 6. tibi verò iam omnia ad salutem clausa sunt qui negas quod iam ignorare non potes They for as much as they knovve not the truth may haue their salvation in fafety if aftervvard they beleeue but all hope of health is shut vp from thee forasmuch as thou deniest that thing vvhich thou canst not choose but knowe See howe daungerous wilfull and obstinate maintenance of an error is but neither of these two points will be found in vs and therefore farre are wee from iustly deseruing the name of heretiques or our true faith the name of heresie This is an olde practise of Satan to deale thus with Gods trueth and the professours thereof S. Paul was called before the iudges to make answer to a matter of heresie as you may read to your great coÌ„tentment in the Acts of the Apostles and he answered Act. 24. that indeede according to that way which they called heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers But for all their calling and bawling it was far from beeing so because he beleeued all things which were written in the law the Prophets and for that his manner of worshippe was wholly agreeable to the scriptures which no heresie can be Christ our deare Sauiour for no other cause was called a Samaritane but onely for that he was thought to haue fallen to a certaine newe religion and to be the author of a new sect in Apologeâ— Tertullian witnesseth that in his time euen this very religion which wee now professe was called a sect and heresie that thereby Princes eares might be stopped from hearing any thing spokeÌ„ or written in defence of the Christians Eusebius doth the like 4. c. 18. saying that the religion of Christ was called impiorum Christian orum Haeresis The heresie of the wicked Christians Epist ad
them and marke them which argued a touch in their hearts more then the worlde saw or they had strength and boldnesse publikely to make shewe of One mother I coulde name to you that albeit shee did as the time then was yet hadde shee an olde Psalter in english and before her children beeing younge would often reade on it giuing them admonition in diuers points according to her motherly care and by name when shee came to those wordes They haue eies and see not feete haue they and goe not hands and handle not noses and smell not neither is there any breath in their mouthes cursed are all they that make them and so are all they that put their trust in them Marke children would shee say what those Images you see in the Churches bee they cannot see goe handle or smell they haue no life and therefore we may not worship or trust in them they are cursed that make them as you heare and no doubt but there will come a time when they will bee taken away By which we plainely see there was more in many of our good forefathers for doe you thinke god was the god onely of this good woman more I say then the course of time yeelded theÌ„ and therefore great testimonies that god saued them euen in the furnace and in the Lyons denne that is in the darke time and time of daunger Therefore farre be it from vs to iudge of them otherwise then well They liue with the Lord God I most comfortably hope M. This reuereÌ„t coÌ„ceit of your elders sonne I trust is a signe of Gods grace in you and your hope is grounded vpon good presumptions But why then may not wee nowe follow their course as I said hope of like mercy also with them why we may not imitate â—â—r forefathers S. Deare mother let not me answere you but heare and weigh with your selfe what S. Cyprian that learned and holy father answereth whose words are these I know you vnderstand them Ignosci potuit simpliciter erranti post inspirationem verò revelationem factam qui in eo quo errauerat perseuerat sine veniâ ignorantiae peccat praesumptione enim at que obstinatione superatur M. Me thinks I vnderstand this sentence to be thus much in english To one that of simplicity erreth pardon may be giuen but who so after knowledge reuealed and gratiously offered continueth in his errour that man or that woman sinneth without hope of pardon for their ignorance for he or shee is wholly carried away vvith presumption and obstinacie Which senteÌ„ce if it be that godly fathers surely it ought to be well weighed of al that mean not to be so ouercome And for my part I doe thinke and will thinke of it S. Surely mother they are his very wordes and for the sence well translated by you And blessed be God for your good taking of these graue speeches of great lights and worthy teachers in their times The wordes are in his 62. epistle as I shall shewe you when I come to the booke And since my wordes finde comfortable fauour with you let me I pray further shew you how Satan hath alwaies vsed to deceiue men by these meanes and howe God hath giuen councell to the contrary Cresconius the heretique said to S. Augustin Our fathers receiued this of their fathers before theÌ„ And S. Augustin answered him sed errantes ab errantibus but them men deceiued receiued it of men that were deceiued before them Even as the Iewes at this day receued of their fathers and their fathers likewise receiued it before them of their fathers and so from father to father since the suffering of Christ which is now almost 1567 yeares that Christ did not rise againe but that his disciples came whilest the watchmen slept stole his body away Now is this wicked falshood true because by tradition from father to sonne it hath beene continued and taught amongst the Ievves for so many yeres god forbid We beleeue the contrary as an article of our faith and therefore you see this argument from our forefathers is dangerous and may carrie vs into great errors if vve take not heede This notable ansvvere of S. Augustin and this worthy example woulde neuer be forgotten Another great heretique called Eutiches that denied the humanity of our Sauiour beeing conuented for it in the Councell of Chalcedon fled likewise to this defence and cried â—ct 1. Sic à progenitoribus meis accipiens credidi in hac fide genitus sum consecratus deo inea opto mori this faith I haue receiued from my auncestoures and forefathers in this faith I was borne and baptized and in this faith I desire to die And yet that faith an horrible heresie as you haue heard denying that Iesus Christ was man Auxentius the Arrian heretique made this his refuge and told theÌ„ that sought his reformation Quemadmodem ab infantiâ doctus sum ita crediat credo Even as from mine infancy I haue heene taught so I haue beleeued and doe beleeue S. Hilary reporteth thus of him By which examples wee plainely see what an olde ginne of Satan this is to intangle vs with the doings of our forefathers and to make vs beleeue that the following of them in all things is a praise for vs and that we ought not in any thing to slippe away from them But it is not soe God hath otherwise taught vs auncient fathers haue othewise preached and written and the matter of our eternall saluation is weighty We must beware vnto the former examples ad that of the Iewes so notable in the prophet where beeing rebuked of the prophet Ieremy for their Idolatry God so commanding him they flatly answered as these heretiques before named and as they of the Romish Church still daily answere The worde which thou hast spoken to vs in the name of the Lord we will not heare it of thee but as our forefathers haue done our kings and our princes in the city ot Iudah so will we doe euen whatsoeuer goeth out of our owne mouth as to burne incense to the Queene of heauen and to powre out drinke offrings vnto her for then had we plentie of victualls and were well and felt no euill but since we left of to burne incense to the Queene of heauen and to powre out drinke offerings vnto her we haue scarcenesse of all things and haue bene consumed by the sword and famine c. I doubt not mother but you marke this place well for indeede it is a verie notable and pregnant example to this ende we nowe speak of and the words are as it we heard all the Romish Catholicks speake together so iumpe they with them And so like is Satan to himselfe in his trickes and deuises to deceiue Gods people But nowe what saith God Doeth be like of this answere and of this heady and vnadvised following of their auncestoures No No neither euer will he like of it
safetie before others but the Lord knoweth whose trueth is with vs that there is no cause And whatsoeuer by the power of all popish learning hath beene alleadged as any cause we haue answered soundly out of Gods booke our answeres standing without reply vnto this day Our seruice theeefore is lawfull our praiers are holy our meetings are Christian and no better way to be resolued hereof then part by part to examine them So haue some done and beene reformed wondering howe so great slaunders could be raised where no cause is found The authoritie also of lawefull gouernment commaundeth but lawefull things increaseth the dutie to obey and presseth with no smaller weight then damnation as the Apostle flattely affirmeth if we resist Rom. 1â— Conceits may not take place where such euidence of trueth doth gainsay them If I had a conceit or perswasion that all meates would kill me must I certainely die for want of meate and retaine my errour The Galatians prescribed themselues amisse in some things and the Apostle thought it a reason sufficient to reforme them to tell them that such a perswasion was not the perswasion of him that called them meaning of God Gal. 5.8 And the scriptures phrase in the matter of perswasion is to adde through the Lord. Rom. 14.24 2. Thes 3.4 I am persvvaded through the Lord which is worthie noting Deare Mother the Lords annointed ouer you her sacred Maiestie commandeth this dutie and there is no deuill of hell can prooue this charge vnlawefull Therefore by the bonde of a subiect true and faithfull you ought to obey My father with sighes and groanes of a troubled heart desireth it and therefore by the bonde of a wife louing and dutifull you ought to obey And which is the greatest of all the God that made you coÌ„mandeth it to you and all his seruants therfore by the bonde of a childe of God you ought to obey The bondes are great the duty is holy the obedience is euerlasting peace comfort life the danger also is great to striue to offend And therefore happie is that heart that yeeldeth betimes If by reading their bookes this wound hath beene giuen you then reade our answeres and let God heale They haue written no matter of moment these 40. yeares in our english tongue but fully and soundly is it answered to Gods glorie Yea their new testament wherein is their whole strength heaped togither is learnedly answered to the full contentment of any not desperatly giuen ouer to his owne blindnesse In matter of lawe concerning the goodes of this world you will heare contrarie opinions and choose with iudgemeÌ„t In matter of phisicke concerning your bodie you will doe the like beat out a trueth Shall onely the soule be neglected and pinned on other mens sleeues ô God forbidde He hath promised that neuer deceiued eueÌ„ in this matter also Aske and you shall haue seeke and you shall finde knocke and it shall be opened vnto you Thus shall we finde their great wickednesse in denying the scriptures to be read of them that haue soules to be saued as well as themselues their taking away the cuppe from the lay people when Christs institution was Drinke ye all of this their leauing the second commandement out of their catechismes because it forbid deth Images their multitude of bodily exercises when the scripture saith they profit little their killing of princes when the Lord saith Touch not mine annointed and Dauids heart smote him for cutting off but the lappe of Sauls garment and to no worse ende then to make him see his innocency and his guardes negligence their freeing of subiects from their obedience and alliegance when it is written Let euery soule be subiect c. Their direct crossings of the written worde as when it is saide No man commeth to the father but by me they say we haue many mediatours by whome we may come to the father besides Christ when it is said Thou shalt not commit adultery they say if not chastly yet charily and find in one fish ponde of Gregory 6000 childrens skulls by that wicked charynes wheÌ„ the Lord saith You erre because you knowne not the scriptures they say directly contrarie you will erre if you meddle with the scriptures when the Lord saieth when you haue done all say you are vnprofitable seruants they say we may doe workes of supererogation more then we are bound and so merit for others Also when the Lord forbiddeth a lusting looke their Pope giueth licence not onely to erect a stews wherein not long since were nuÌ„bred 40000. harlots that paid a yeerely rent and vpon the 12 day at night were seene goe into the Popes pallace 17. coaches full of curtizans But ô horrible euen â—o practise the sinne against nature and not to be named during the 3. hotte moneths in the yeare Iune Iuly August Al which with many moe may giue any Christian man or woman not finally forsaken of God and left to a reprobate mind a true tast of that Cursed religion and cause them iustly to reason thus Popery maintaineth flat Idolatrie diuers waies therefore not true It alloweth other grosse sinnes forbidden of God therefore not true It nuzleth the hart of man in securitie therefore not true It robbeth the conscience of comfort and hope by maintaining doubting therefore not true It destroieth the ordinance of God lawfull magistracy and loyall obedieÌ„ce therefore not true It flieth the light and nourisheth darkenesse therefore not true It spreadeth it selfe and groweth by lies false testimonies slaunders dreames reuelations counterfeit holinesse and fained miracles therefore not true Deare Mother open your eies and regard your soule Be as you should be wise without wilfulnesse zealous without superstition discreet to discerne carefull to beware regarding God prince and countrie before any spirituall enchaunters whatsoeuer yea regarding your selfe and my deare father with vs your poore children who rise and fall with your well and ill doing I am no enemie that begge this of you but euen your owne bowells who haue liued in you and neuer desire to liue without you your child your own by God and nature bound vnto you O Mother behold my teares thinke of my heart prostrate before you vpon my face I beg it for his sake who gaue me to you whose loue is life whose trueth is ioy whose power and goodnesse is infinit to honour them that honour him Mine eies behold you for some worde of comfort cast me not away for Iesus sake without it M. Deare child arise let my silence now content thee It shall not be long ere we talke again Your father coÌ„meth towards vs whome I pray you goe meere and let him not knowe as yet of our speech When he was turned froÌ„ her towards his father shee caught the house vpon her and into her closet shee went with hast where all bewashing her selfe with teares shee brake out in this sort O my God and gratious father thou hast raised out of mine owne bodie a teacher for me that I might not scorne him and who by me receiued life concerning his bodie he by thee hath offred me life concerning my soule if I will receiue it I cannot I cannot denie his reasons I feele them coÌ„uince me I haue no excuse against such trueth and such a teacher but I am caught I am caught ô my God if I will not damnably breake out of thy net againe and runne desperatly headlong vpon mine owne destruction VVo is me that I so long haue erred from thy trueth harkning to the vaine inventions of mans braine Thy word I knowe is trueth and why should not I ground my selfe and soule vpon it Thy worde I heare is able to make me wise vnto saluation and so can no writing of man To the lavv and â—o the testimonie saith thy Prophet I nowe remember and if they speake not according to this it is because there is no light in theÌ„ VVho hath grounded vpon this rocke and hath miscarried yet my soule knoweth how popery abhorreth this lantarne we may not read it we may not goe to Church to heare it we may not haue it translated for vs but darknes darknes that is stil the mother of devotion though the holy ghost hath said Search the scriptures and be not children in vnderstanding Howe can this then be the true religion the truth the light that forbiddeth al meanes of knowledge They binde and burn I cannot denie the Saints of God bathe themselues in innoceÌ„t blood All is hypocrisie and vain glorie I see I see that ruleth amongst them O father strengthen me ô Sauiour pittie me ô holy ghost confirme me and finish this worke begunne in me to the eternall praise of thy name and the profitable mouing of others by my example that are abused and deceiued by these craftie iuglers and deceitfull workers as I was Amen Amen FINIS