of the spirit giving vs cause of our owne heart by the worke of the spirit giving vs cause of prayer and instead therof to reade another mans writing I doubt not wil be founde and judged of all that haue spirituall eyes to see a quenching of that grace yea in that action the reading hindreth vs from pleading our cause with God according to the occasions we see in our owne hearts And by not teaching men to drawe out the graces of God in them to offer vp the sweete incense of his owne spirit in praier but an other course devised by fleshly pollicy the people growe into such Atheisme that they learne not all the dayes of their life to lay open their owne soule before the Lord in praier How much more then by imposing stinted wordes to be read in the whole assemblies insteade of the liuely graces making it a sufficieÌ„nt ministerie to reade ouer such beggarlie wares do you abandon Gods spirituall giftes and make an assemblie of Atheists in most places of this land yea trulie in the best assemblies compell such wares to be read when and where the liuely voyces of God present graces should onely be draweÌ„ fourth as an holy odour vnto the Lorde Yea I appeale to the consciences of al that feare God if this have not brought the land generally to Atheisme that not one amongst an hundred can call vpon God 2 That it is an ignorance to presume to come into so neere a conversing with God and to do one action for an other so offring the sacrifice of fooles let it be sufficient proof that reading is not praying That it is presumptuous to bring such lame sacrifices when yov know to do better let it be considered whether you would so vncircumspectly and carelesly approche to the presence of the Prince or any noble personage Then if he be our Lorde where is his honour his feare etc. when we wil teach men and compel men to do they knowe not what in his sight and to offer such lame sacrifice The Priests themselves care not what offring they bring to him Malach. 1. Thirdly the reading praier can be at no hand a striuing in praier for the worde agoniso which is read Rom. 15 30 signifieth to contend in fervency both in minde and worde to preuaile with God as Iaakob wrestled with the Angell and said I will not let thee goe except thou blesse me Genes 32 24.25.26 Such â—rist you shall see throughout the Psalmes in the praiers of David and the Prophets alas how this should be performed either by feruency or contynuance let the wise consider 4. For importunacy and continvance in praier whereof we have many precepts let the worde be looked vpon which is proscartereo to insist by perseverance etc. as we see our Saviour Christ make plaine vnto vs by a parable Luke 11.5 6.7.8 and Luke 18.1.2.3.5.7 now shall not God auenge his elect which crye night and day Experience we see in Moses who when he lifted up his handes to heaven the Israelites so long preuayled Exod. 17. You can not make your read prayers serve in this vse with all your divises For how would you effect this except to make the Priest reade till he sweat againe with vaine repetition and the people that use such stinted praiers to say them often over as the Papists their fifteene Aue marias fiue Pater nosters as a cure of altheir grieves By this litle I have spoken it may appeare though the Lorde knowes I am a man of vncricumcised lippes neither able to vtter that God giveth me by faith to see in these high thinges neither yet comprehending anie title of the excelency of them it I hope it shall appeare to Gods children how odious your marchandize is in Gods eyes and how you make the ordinances of God of true prayer of none effect by your traditions he onely approving the lively graces of his owne ministerie and such as have giftes and are called thervnto to be his mouth vnto the people and the peoples mouth vnto him in the publique assemblies you invent a newe worship and extinguish his which maketh men fall into dissolutnes and bloudie tyrannie against his Sainctes And where I alleadged that Paul would pray with the spirit and vnderstanding and therefore not vpon a booke you answere that Paul had no such neede of a book as other men have But if you had looked vpon the text better you should see that the Apostle in his owne person teacheth what ought to be donne in all Churches of all men And that he there taketh away the abuse of spirituall giftes I Corin. 14.15 and in the same Chapter sheweth that this and all other his doctrines are commannments of God vers. 37 nowe either God prescribeth two wayes to pray or els your reading for praying is a devise of man But your self have confessed there is no commaundement to reade prayer for praying Yet here you cauill with your stale shift that Paul taught others to singe Psalmes vpon a booke which is a meere evasion seing singing is not praying The same Apostle faith to all that are borne of God because we are sonnes God hath sent fourth into our heartes the spirit of his sonne which cryeth Abba Father So that although we have not like measure of grace yet if we cannot pray we have uot the spirit of God Gal. 4.6 I alleadged as you say a reason here why praier read cannot be true praier Jn reading we fetch the matter from the booke which moueth the heart In true praier we fetch the matter from the heart which causeth the mouth to speake Your answere is that this a most ridiculous vanitie for tell me say you this when we bring fourth in true praier matter froÌ„ the heart which causeth the mouth to speak hath not the heart bene first moued with the worde of faith etc. Let men here witnesse with me what cause I had to esteeme you as a skorner Againe how empty you are of any spiritual favour And here you haue no answere to give but aske me certaine questions First whether wheÌ„ we bring fourth in true prayer etc. the heart hath not beene first instructed To this I answere that againe you confesse the reading praier vpon a booke is not praying but an instruction of the heart to praye If you would stand to this we should not neede have so much labour and all the places of Scripture which you have alleadged for to proove reading praying have beene meerly wrested by you to deceaue the simple Well say you but if the heart be first instructed before it can vtter matter in praier whie may not the heart againe be moued with hearing or reading the worde and so vtter prayer Yes I graunt and still you graunt me that reading is not praying but moueth to praier TheÌ„ all your assemblies that have no prayer at all and all that vse read praier for praying do not praie but mocke with
or innouating anie part of the same as is called a commaundement to be kept without spott till the appearing of our Lorde Iesus Christ Nowe to make an other leiturgie is to lay other foundation and to make an other Gospell not that ther is an other Gospell but that there are some willing to pervert the Gospell of Christ Then your leiturgies to which you are sworne and by which you administer being as you cannot denie an other leiturgie then Christes Testament is plainely an other Gospell for the Canons and rules you prescribe and impose are such as he hath not prescribed or commaunded or at the best a transforming of his ordinances Now if you should say you do nothing but make laws of particular thinges collected from the scriptures and with that collour impose your leiturgies we have shewed the vnlawfullnes of bringing anie mans writinges as rules into the Church For the explaining of the whole will of Christ so far as is meet for vs he hath given vs his officers to administer according to his liturgie by liuely voyce and due execution of all things by one rule Making then a newe litourgia you must also make a new ministerie for Christes ministerie cannot administer after a counterfeit liturgie And that Antichrist was the cheif Innouator of this liturgie howsoever the thing might be long a working by litle litle it is plaine when he is called Antikeimenos that opposite man or laier of an other foundation Now we must not make all liturgies beside the Testam. of like wickedness or blasphemie But how neere the most heynousest yours approach let him that answereth the other part of your booke witnesse vnto me Nowe where I said you had confessed that you never read in the Scriptures any warrant to reade praiers vnto God you say now I knowe I have falsified your wordes Surely it would be knowen for I would not willinglie so doe your wordes you say were these to your remembrance God never commaunded a man to reade praier vpon the booke Is not this the same that I saye you confesse ther is no warrant for reading prayer is ther anie thing warranted in his worship that he hath not commaunded Then you aske me if I will gather thus is it not expresse commaunded therfore it is not warranted No you forgot the worde expressie to help your self to saye vnsaye I gathered that because you said absolutely it was not commaunded therfore it was not warranted Here you come againe to shewe your ignorance in the scriptures to say ther is not anie exprese commaundement to vse praier before or after doctrine And remember you here will have it a commaundement and said before you hold it not of necessitie G. GIFFORD There would sundry inconveniences growe for want of a Lyturgie or prescript formes of publique praiers I. GREENWOOD STil I must put you in minde of the wisedome of that gouernour of his house the builder beginner and finisher of our Faith Christ Iesus he forsawe what inconvenience would haue growne if either men or Angells should make newe liturgies or other formes of praier then he hath prescribed for the publique assemblies Here therfore you deeply chardge him not to have donne all thinges that were needful in not prescribing you more formes thē he hath donne or not suffered learned divines to impose their owne writinges vnto God But see what the Scripture saith who hath knowen the mynde of the Lord that he might instruct him Againe wher is the wise where the Scribe where the disputer of this world hath not God made the wisedome of this world foolishnes To put you out of doubt then that we neede not any newe liturgie nor anie mens writinges to be brought into the publique assemblies the Holie Ghost saith 2. Timot. 3.16 The whole Scripture is Theopneustos inspired of God and profitable vnto doctrine vnto reproof vnto correction vnto erudition which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be absolute perfect fully furnished vnto everie good worcke Nowe if onelye the Scriptures be Theopnestos and sufficient to make Gods childrē absolutely perfect even fully furnished to every good work what blasphemie is it to say sundrie inconvenience would growe if mens writinges were not imposed vpon the publique assemblies And in this your wisedome let us see what is the chiefest inconveniency that would growe You say everye franticke spirit of which sort ther be manie in the ministerie would not only be unlike themselves but varie from others I answered and still doe that the Papists have not so weake a reason for their Idolatrous Liturgies Rubricks and Canons You say it appeareth by all my Arguments how meete a man I am to judge the weight of reasons alleadged by the Papists and others well I am weake and you strong foolish you wise yet might you have shewed me a weaker reason which they alleadge for their constitutions ecclesiasticall as they cal thē But my chief answere was wherby you might have beene satisfied that if it were but in Parases the ministerie should differ it is no sufficient cause to ordeine liturgies And if they offend in matter of doctrine or conversation the censure of the Church should help that The first you graunt the second also you confesse that the Church should censure such thinges But you say ther are sundry other differences in administration of publique praiers Sacraments as in order and ceremonies which the Ch. is is to have regard of and not to leave arbitrarie All other ceremonies in Gods worship then Christ and his Apostles have prescribed us are diabolicall and not Apostolicall Then for all thinges donne in the Church in those publique actions the offenders must be admonished if they trasgresse the rules of the word And for the others you speake of you meane circumstances of time place kneeling sitting standing c. of them there can be no furder lawes then Christ hath prescribed that all things be donnne to edifying in comelynes and decency c. of these to set particular lawes were to breake the lawe of God which leaveth them in the Churches liberty as neede requireth to the glorie of God In these thinges to doe anie thing contrarie to the generall rules of order edifying decencye etc. the transgressour is by those rules to be instructed admonished and censured Well here you have made a faire hand to make read prayers but a matter of order which is all the worship you have to bring in mens writings into the publique assemblies to make thē ether rules to bind the conscience and so put them in the place of Gods booke or to reade them over for praying is but a matter of order well then put them in your cornerr Capp we have enough of rules for the ordering of Christs spouse without such Babilonish ware Here you say mine experience is not so great as my boldness I passe not to be judged of you it is not like that the enchaunters of
is dry saith David I am wearie with crying c. But here againe in stead of answere you tell me I runne upon the rocke of an hereticall opinion of perfection Wherein I wonder but that I perceave your right eye is blinded you should be so carelesse what you say nay what after two yeares studie you put in print Doth it follow that because the heart moved with occasion through the worke of faith hath wordes and matter enough in praying without a booke to speake for it that therefore faith is perfect Let equall Judges consider Here you say manie are so troubled perplexed in minde that they cannot pray till they have some consolation by the direction of others which when they cannot have reading upon a booke is a notable help I allowe all this and agree if you would make reading one thing and prayer an other divers exercises of the spirit c. But in the verie action of praying to have an other speake unto us never so good wordes of exhortation were but a confounding of the minde and action and an abuse of both those holie exercises Even so by your owne comparison reading upon a booke in the action of praying seing we cannot doe both at once It is the spirit of God in the verie action of prayer that helpeth our infirmities David in praying finding his soule heavie stirreth up himself as thus My soule why art thou cast down why art thou disquieted within me waite on God For I will yet give him thankes my present help and my God He had a troubled minde his mouth wanted no wordes to provoke the Lorde to heare his complaint and his heart to waite upon the Lord so through all the Psalmes you shall finde the conversing of the soule with God to be such as it were a mockerie to think reading vpon a book could have anie place in that action or that anie mans writing could lay out the present estate of the soule with the passions thereof The Priest may say my booke whie are thouso euill prynted for when they reade the heart cannot reason and talke with God To the second poynt which was but your bare assuming of the question to say a man may pray by the spirit vpon a booke c. I alleadged that to worship God in spirit is when the inward faith of the heart bringeth foorth true invocation etc. this you graunt to be most true and that none other is accepted of G O D then that which proceedeth from the inward faith of our owne heart But you think that reading vpon a booke is to bring foorth of the heart true invocation This cannot be if wee consider the difference betweene proseuche and anagnosis prayer and reading the one being a powring fourth of vowes petitions supplications the other a receaving into the soule al such things as wee reade This therfore I leave to all mens consciences to be considered whether the matter we reade can be said a powring fourth of the heart the whole vse of these divers actiōs through the whole Bible shew yt cannot Now where I said that you teach men insteade of powring fourth their hearts to help themselves with matter and wordes out of a booke you say I speake fondly and foolishlie etc. Mine answeare now is yt is well I lyed not if I had said you compell men to read vpon a booke in all your publique assemblies certaine wordes of your owne writings by number and stint from yeare to yeare day to day the same instead of powring out their hearts before the Lorde for their present wants I had not lyed Now let all men by that which hath bene said consider the grossnes of it and so the follie remayneth to your self But to helpe this matter to deliver your self conniugly in such a strayte you say you wish al men to use the help of the book that they might the better powre fourth their hearts vnto God being such as are not throughly able First you graunt here the prayers read vpon the booke is not the powring fourth of the heart but ought to be vsed only as an help wherbie you graunt the whole question and furder all your assemblies have had no other invocation of Gods name this many yeares but a help to teach them to powre fourth their hearts But whether mens writings may be read in the publique assemblies to this use we shall after make manifest Here yet is graunted but an help and not the powring fourth of the heart And to whom is it graunted an help to such as are not able to pray Here eyther you must confesse your whole ministerie is vnable to pray or that they transgresse in in this high worship of GOD for in an other place you graunt in all your assemblies this reading is vsed of mens writing for prayer thus you may behold your best worship to be nothing but a help to teach you to pray Where I said that you teach men to fetch the cause of their sorrowing from the booke euen in their tyme of begging at G O D S hand you say I speak fondly to call that the cause which is the manifestation of the cause etc. You here forget your artes Is ther no more causes then one if it be the instrumentall cause it is sufficient to prove that if your Ministers had not their booke they had nothing to aske or els asking that which is in the booke they aske not that wich before was in their owne heartes so not comming heavie laden they goe emptie away and leave the matter in the booke as they founde it till the next day and then sing the same songe But true prayer is when the heart is first prepared and moued with the sight of their wants as the child that asketh breade So we should not pray of custome but aske the verie thing wherof our heart feeleth the want Your comparison againe betwixt the being stirred up by a Sermon and stirred up by reading sheweth that your self will not make the reading the powring fourth of the heart Ther is no question but the exercise of reading is chieflie for instruction and encrease of knowledge and meditating is not the same nether can be said to be al the use of reading though we denie reading to be praying but because we are forbidden contention about wordes I have offred you as much wrong in saying you denyed reading to be for meditation at all I will proceede to the more necessarie doctrines Also for the controversie of Canonicall and Apocryphall we shall speak in due place Thus say you you have answered nothing at all vnto this Commandement giuen by our saviour Christ to vse that prescript forme of prayer say Our Father c but by shift and cavill c. Here you thinke you have put me to a plunge your self needed nothing doubt but that I allowed the Commaundement holie and good and to extend to all Christians as well as
publique assemblies Ephes. 2. 20. and 1 Cor. 3. Fourthlie if we might bring in anie mens writings into the publique assemblies thē all mens writings which we judge agreable to the Scriptures But this is forbidden Ecclesiastes 12. 11. 12. My proof of the first Proposition is this If anie mens writings are to be brought into the publique assemblies by Gods commaundement because they are agreable to the Scriptures as you in an other place alleadge then all that are thought agreable to the Scriptures ought of necessitie by the same commandement and if ther be no commandement then none are to be make Authentique which God hath not made Authentique For that were to set man in the place of God No mans writings cary that majestie as doth the pen of the holy Ghost No mans writinges are Cecuromenai Authentique confirmed by signes and wonders from heaven sealed by Christes blood that not one worde of title shal be vnfulfilled The Scriptures are all sufficient All men must walke by that one rule To thinke ther were not rules enough prescribed by the Lord for his house were blasphemous and papisticall Now for the explication interpretation etc. and speach vnto God in prayer God hath given giftes vnto men to pray and prophecye and ordeyned his ministery of Pastors Teachers whose lively voice is appointed to be the mouth of God vnto the people of his people vnto himself in the publique assemblies And these graces are not Apocryphall for no prophecie of the Scripture is of private interpretation idias epiluseos to euery one is given the manifestation of the spirit to proffit withal Most execelent men serve but their tyme in the publique assemblies Now J may conclude as J beganne That onely Gods holy word the lively graces of his holy Spirit are to be heard offred vp vnto in him the publique assemblies Where then in way of answere to the Minor Proposition you say you see not how our speach vnto God should be Apocrypha It answeareth not me who deny an other mans writing to be our speach in prayer unto God But c̄onvinceth your selfe by you own mouth thus True praier is not Apocrypha but all mens writings are Apocr Therefore mens writing is not true praier Here when you have nothing to say for your self you woulde make me believe that I accompt the Psalmes and the other formes of prayer in the Scripture to be Apocrypha when they be read though a litle before you confessed you had in your last writing donne me wrong therin I do accompt the reading of thé for praying to be a groffe and superstitious abuse of them yet them to be holie canonical script And here you have flatly ouerthrowen your self saying the worde Apocrypha is vsed with vs for that which is not Gods vndoubted worde vnto vs And in your last writing which should have beene your answere you said God speaketh to vs onely by the Canonicall Scriptures Now seing you would make your liturgie and devised formes of prayer helpes and instruction and yet cannot make them Canonicall or Gods vndoubted truth they must not be brought into the publique assemblie much lesse imposed by lawe vpon the consciences of all men And here remember all your Liturgies are cast out of the doore besides that you have not made in both writinges one direct answeare to this most firme Proposition which I will still leave upon you thus Onely the Canonicall Scriptures and lively voice of Gods own graces are to be brought into the publique assemblies for doctrine and prayer But mens writings are neyther Canonicall scripture nor the lively voice of Gods graces in such as he hath appointed to speake in the publique assemblies Therefore no mans writings may be brought into nor imposed upon the publique assemblies Thus might I make an ende with this vaine man considering the whole matter is proved against him all that followes being but repetitions of these former cavills but that I must cleare my self of his unconscionable slanders The Second Argument We must doe nothing in the worship of God without warrant of his worde But read prayers have no warrant in his worde Therfore read prayers are not to be used in the worship of God GEORGE GIFFORD To this I answere at the first that it is a greate audacitie to affirme that there is no warrant in the worde for read prayers When ther be sundry testimonies to warrant the same unless you will make difference betweene that which a man readeth upon a booke and that which he hath learned out of the booke Furder I said I doe not remember that ever I have read that God commaunded in the Scriptures that prayer shal be read upon a Booke c. J. GREENWOOD SEing you have indeed not answered one reason or proof I alleadged in my last writing but with must evil conscience as the handling sheweth perverted them I will leaue them to be iudged of them that shall see my writing And here seing you would not print it I will answere your cheif obiections First then you graunt that if I put difference betweene reading vpon the booke and that which he hath learned out of the booke mine Argument is founde For by your owne confession God hath not given anie Commandement for read prayer and so it hath no warrant Whervpon I gayne thus much First that they which impose read praier vpon the Church do that wherof they have no warrant in the worde and that in the high service of God then that they which reade vpon a booke for praying do that wherof they have no warrant in Gods worde wherupon al your Ministers must leave reading their stinted prayers upon the booke or els stand vnder Gods wrath all that so pray with them which wil be a fearefull reckoning if they repent not of their sinne shewed them And although our question be cheiflie concerning the reading of mens writings instead of praying yet I am content the other abuse of the Scriptures be included also though I make not both in the same height of sinne as shall appeare in my several reasons As an vnconstāt man then you in the latter end of the answere to this Argument would cal backe agayne that which you here have granted Namely that there is no Commandement to reade prayer vpon a booke for praying Of the contrary thus you reason The people of God did reade the Psalmes vpon a booke when they did singe therefore men may reade vpon a booke when they pray I deny your Argument besides that all men may see Your unstablenes in denying and affirming with one breath you now go about to make reading of prayer a Commandement thus you prove it Singing say you is a part of praier Singing may be read vpon a Booke therefore praier may be read vpon a booke Admit that Singing were a part of praier yet doth it not followe that all prayer may be read vpon a booke But you speake like
More vvorke for PRIESTS OR AN ANSWERE TO GEORGE GIFFORDS pretended defence of Read Prayers and devised Leitourgies comprised in the first part of his booke Intituled A short Treatise against the Donatists of England Wherein Is proved that the serving of God in such away and manner is a superstitious and vaine worship Written By JOHN GREENWOOD Christs faythfull Martyr Here-unto Is added by another man many other arguments against stinted service and booke prayer Luk. 16. 15. That which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God Printed in the yeere 1640. The Preface MY first writing being about that spiritual exercise of prayer and true invocation of Gods reverend name whereby the distressed soule of man loaden with the burden of sinne compassed also about with so many deceitfull enimies continual assaults of Satan rebellion of the flesh entisements of the world etc. seeketh daylie help of God the Father giver of all good giftes having thorough Iesus Christ free accesse by the direction of his holy spirit for all occasions to unburden it self of whatsoever grief or occasion of thankes it is moved with I ought stil and by Gods assistance shall keepe me in the meeknes of the spirit not withstanding his unchristian railinges slanders reproches against me the truth I then shewed that no other prayer could utter and ease the severall occasions distresses of this conscience and that no other mans writing could speake for this soule unto God but the heart and mouth of him that prayeth for himself or is chosen the mouth of many uttering to God his or their mindes for their present wātes or occasion urgeth and the spirit giveth utterance And I further proved that onelie this prayer pleaseth God and is grounded on faith to this effect I brought many reasons out of Gods worde admiring the ignorance of this age wherin having had the gospell of Christ thus many years in our owne language to search and try all things by whole congregations doe make no other praier to God thē reading over a certeine number of wordes upon a booke from yeare to yeare moneth to moneth day to day c. the same matter and words as they were stinted even out of that Portuis englished out of Antichrists masse booke besides private reading of menswritings instead of praying And seing this counterfeit shew of worship and pretended prayers was made common marchandize in every assemblie by this Antichristian preisthood and that al men every where were compelled to bowe downe hereunto and to offer up such counterfeit sacrifices I perceaved the first principle of Religion which is to invocate the name of the true God through the meditation of Christ in spirit and truth with heart and voyce for our present wantes according to the will of God was never yet sincerely taught by these time serving Priests But as an agreable service to the humors of earthlie minded men which have not the spirit of God this ware was thrust upon al people They wel knowing that such a ministery and such a Church of wordlings could never have stood without such a Samaritan worship Egyptian calf and like earthlie devises to counterfeit a Religion al men inclyned to some And long have I heard this pretended worship inveyed against by many sometimes zealous for the errours and confused order thereof Yet could I not heare anie to sett downe or teach which was the true prayer that only pleased God manie contriving divers formes of wordes as though they had knowen the heart of man counselled thē to reade them day unto day yeare unto yeare at evening morning dinner supper c. by portion measure and stint as an offering to God what state soever the soule was in not teaching the difference betweene reading upon a booke and prayer unto God all the tyme So that true and only prayer hath not beene taught all this tyme those that knewe how to pray aright neglect it this reading being most easie as they thinke and they aptest therunto compelled in the publique assemblies thus to mocke with God after the manner of the papists mattins true zeale no where founde but in the persequuted remnant These my first writings caryed abroode by such as desired true instructiō and willing to make others partakers of such benefits as God imparted unto them it fell into Mr GIFFORDS hand Who as it seemeth being a marchaunt of such ware fynding the gaine of the priesthood to depend here upon or as he saith the peace and uniformitie of the Church made head unto it and that not with purpose as the fruite of his labour sheweth to edifie others but standing himself a minister to this Liturgie having made shipwrack of that conscience he sometimes was thought to have with all bitternes of spirit and carnal wisdome having no more savour of grace in his writings then there is taste in the white of an egge fleeth upō me with uncharitable raylings slanders c. And loadeth not only me but all the faithfull that walke by the rule of Gods worde with opprobrious titles of Donatists Brownists Anabaptists Heretiques Schismatiques seditious foolish frantick c. to bring not onely us but the truth of God into contempt with our Sovereigne Prince and all that feare God for he ceaseth not with laying al reproches he can devise upon our persons as one of those Locusts Rev. 9. whose similitudes are like unto horses prepared to battell whose faces like men but their teeth as the teeth of Lyons But also perverteth blaspheameth by all meanes defaceth the truth offered to him Welseing the natural mā perceiveth not the things of the spirit of God I wil speak not here of the giftes of the spirit but of the grace of God which sanctifieth the same many having Charismata that have not Charin And seeing I am alreadie thus rent Gods truth delivered by me troden under his feete I will followe the councell of Salomon who forewarneth me that he which reproveth a skorner receaveth to himself shame and he that rebuketh the wicked himself a blot And so tourne me from him leaving him to the consideration of his owne words where he sayeth in his Epistle to the reader He that seemeth most zealous in Religion and refrayneth not his tongue hath but bitternes in his heart in stead of heavenly Zeale And though nothing els can be looked for at their bandes that are Apostate from that light they have sometymes themselves published of vvhich sorte the worlde was never more full yet for the good of Gods chosen scattered abroade and for the defence of Gods trueth I cannot holde my tongue And for the more playnenes I will answeare as to him though I minde not to have anie more to doe with him till God give him repentance Wishing grace by the direction of Gods holy spirit to him that readeth to weigh both sides uprightly and to follow the truth to his owne salvation JO GRENWOOD More works for
some things we sinne all In which wordes I plainely reproved his grossnes that concluded all men idolaters which committed anie idolatrie and that no idolater could be saued and distinguished betweene the sinne of ignorance weaknes and imperfection c. in Gods children and open professed obstinate idolatrie Yet this godles man would lay to my charge that I should call all men idolaters wheras I never used such a worde in all my writings But onlie answered his folly in this running out from the question they were his owne wordes that brought this upon his owne heade by concluding that if every sinne against the first table were idolatrie and no idolater could be saved then all are lost let the grosnes then be his and not mine And I leave it to the consideration of all men whether I may not say that they which transgresse the first or second Commandements do commit idolatrie without absurdity But saith he though it be so yet the Scripture calleth not the godly murtherers idolaters etc. for the reliques of sinne remayning I answere that therefore your former absurd cavilling where you said if we hold it idolatrie etc. is by your owne mouth fully answered But to avoyde this foile he hath an other evasion J thought saith he we had reasoned about such grosse idolatrie as a church is to be condemned and forsaken which is defiled therwith Here againe you misreport me J never reasoned to that end in in this whole discourse but onlie laboured to shew all men this error of reading mens writings instead of praying that they might learne how to converse with God their owne Conscience in prayer And what mendes will you make for this slandering and defacing of the truth to all the world all that I desire is your repentance and amendement which God graunt unto you if you be his It followeth in your booke thus But seeing you confess that all men be Idolaters that is touching the remanents of sinne it must needs follow there is no Church free from spots etc. This worde idolaters must still be yours then I willinglie graunt that no man living is free from idolatrie concerning the reliques of sinne Also that no Church upon earth can be without spot upon earth So that now by your owne confession I pleade not for perfection in this life though the more we want the more we ought to endevour With what face then could you publish me an Anabaptist in your Epistle and out of one mouth give contrarie sentence Doth your ordinary teach you to cast out such bitter waters of untruthes was it possible I should bold al men idolaters some men without committing of sinne after regeneration especially to maintaine both such heresies as you give out Wel consider yourself before the Lord call you to accompt for defacing his truth and pleading for Baal I grant yea I were not of God if I should speake otherwise that the deare servants of God fall into most lothsome sinnes after regeneration that the riches of Gods mercie might appeare in their repentance through the worke of his grace Then you reason thus if ther be alwaies spottes and imperfectnes in the true Church upon earth then all your Arguments you bring against the Church of England are of no force except you will maintaine a perfection Mine answere is I will not meddle with your Ch. to prove it a false church in this treatise but refer you to Mr Barrowes refutation of Mr Gifford him that handleth that part of your booke Yet I must tell you your argument is verie simple For after the same manner you might reason thus If ther be no true Church without spottes upon earth then the Church of Rome is the true Ch. for it hath manie spottes and you all Scismatiques Againe you assume the matter you should prove It will be proved against you that you have not Ecclesiam a people called fourth of the world to the obedience of Christ Then that the spottes of your Church are Egyptian ulcers incurable running botches But I purposed not to deale with your Church onelie my mind is to shew the unlawfulnes of this reading and imposing mens writings upon mens Consciences in stead of true praying Of which sinne the Lord give you and this whole land grace to repent that so men may learne more ferventlie to call upon God The first Argument against read Prayer c. No Apocrypha must be brought into the publique assemblies for there onelie GODS worde and lively voyce of his owne graces must be hearde in the publique assemblies But mens writings and the reading of them over for prayer are Apocrypha therefore may not be brought into the publique assemblies GEORGE GIFFORD First touching the Proposition No Apocrypha is to be brought into the publique assemblies What can be more false Apocrypha is opposed against Canonicall If nothing may be brought into the publique assemblies but Canonicall Scripture then the Sermons and prayers of Pastors are to be banished c. IOHN GREENWODS Answer IN the answere of this you will needes oppose against both Propositions yet have nothing to say if not to royle the doctrines delivered with your feete least others should drinke therof The part of a wise man had beene to lay his hand on his mouth In the first Proposition you would oppose the worde Apocripha against the lively voyce of Gods graces when you see I said onlie that no Apocripha might be brought into the publique assemblies And further to explane my minde least you should willingly finde such a cavill I added this reason for there only Gods worde the lively voyces of his graces are to be heard where I acknowledged those livelie voyces to be Gods ordinance yet nether to be called Apocrypha nor Canonical How can you say th̄e I would have these or that these are banished if all Apocrypha writings be banished the publique assemblies Yet as I told you I take Apocrypha to be all writings but the Canonicall Authenique Scriptures But say you then I will exclude the Paraphrases upon the Scriptures and the Psalmes in Metre etc. Affirme you them to be Apocrypha as you doe and can do no other I wil through Gods grace prove they ought not to be brought into the publique assemblies First no mans writings are given to the Church by testimonie of Gods spirit we are onelie commaunded to heare what the spirit saith therefore though mens writings be permitted to be read privatelie of them that will and therupon called Apocrypha that is hidden they may not be brought into the publique assemblies Secondly no mans writings are without errour and imperfections therfore not to be brought into the publique assemblies The Church is the pillar of truth Thirdlie the Church is builded upon the foundation of the Prophets and the Apostles Christ Iesus being the cheif corner stone and not upon mens writings Therefore mens writings may not be brought into the
an ignorant man to say that Singing is praier seing they are twoo diuers actions exercises of our faith the one never read for the other nor said to be a part of the other through the Scriptures but are playnely distinguished I. Cor. 14.15 what is it then I wil pray with the spirit but I will pray with vnderstanding I will sing with the spirit etc. Againe if you be sad pray and if you be merye sing Psalmes prosuxomai and psalo I wil pray and I will sing are divers exercises of the faith if a man should say reading a chapter of the scripture and prophecying were alon were he not wide Even so euery part of Gods service is not praier I graunt we are every where commaunded to singe Psalmes unto God And alleadged that place of the Apostle to the Ephes. 5. 19. Speaking to your selves in Psalmes and Himnes and Spirituall songes etc. and that of the Coloss only to this end that in Psalmes singing we do not alwaies speake vnto God as in those Psalmes which are onelie instructions and prophesies in the 1. and 2. Psalmes you have not one worde spoken vnto God Againe as all reading of the praiers in the Scriptures is not praying or speaking unto God so the reading or singing of Psalmes I tooke to have beene a speaking to our selves a stirring vp of Gods graces in vs etc. But I do not now nor did not then hold it so in al Psalmes singing And where you say I purposelie left out the latter part in both places which was this Sing vnto God with a grace in your heartes the Lorde knowes I had no purpose to injurie the Scripture nor maintaine an vntruth But though wee might do those things with a grace to God in our heartes which were not properly and directlie a conversing by thought worde with him alone but one thing might have kept you from crying out heresie in that I added this that I would not stand vpon that reason but desired to knowe it furder But how vniustlie could you number this for an heresie mainteined of us al in your Epistle that we should denie that Psalmes should be songe vnto God The Lorde keepe me from such errour And a wofull phisition you are if I had bene in such an errour For the 102. Psalme I never denied but that it was a most excellent Psalme penned by Daniel or some other Prophet and given to the whole Church to be songe or read as other Psalmes in the forme of praier But you must prove that the Church did use it as you say to reade it over for praying or were commaunded so to doe This is proof enough they did not because it is a Psalme Now though the Ch. speake manie times in the singular number yet it is expressed in some other verse that it is so But now admit that you could prove that the psalmes were read insteade of or for invocation which you shall never be able to doe it doth not followe that mens writinges should be brought into the assemblies and read for praier The 6. of Numbers I have answered before From the 92. Psalme you reason thus If the psalmes and other formes of prayer in the scriptures were read or said by rote the verie forme of wordes for praying Then reading instead of or for praying Here you durst not set your assumption it was so false which should be thus But the Psalmes other formes of prayer were read for praying c. This I shewed you was verie untrue they were never commaunded so to be used nor never so used My proof was this they are given were by the holy Ghost for other uses as singing reading etc. and not commaunded anie where so to be used so that you do but cavil not having one proof for all your shameles assertions Now where I demaunded what this made for your Liturgies and reading mens writinges for praying except you would make your owne writinges of equall authoritie with the Scriptures You answere That if I denie the consequence it was lawfull to use the Psalmes therefore mens writings then I wil shut out all prayers even the praier of the Pastor See your carnall handling shufling and confounding Gods ordinances Doth it followe that because mens writinges may not be brought into the publique assemblies or there be read for praying therfore the praiers uttered by the lively voice of the Pastor should hereby be excluded this your shift was answered in the first Argument your cavils are stale you are againe convinced Touching the other matter of cunning phrases and formes of praier by roate to say over certeine number of wordes it is popish and a meere evasion and bewraieth your ignorance in prayer In this you have granted me that he which praieth not with a feeling of his present wants of his soul but saith over certaine number of wordes of custome or affectation he is an hiprocrite which is true proved Mat. 6.7 Now by this examine your dailie monethlie annuall etc. saying over nay reading over certeine wordes euery time the same as you are stinted It is plaine the sacrifice of fooles Ecclesiastes 4.17 The two pointes wherein you protest so willinglie to agree with me were these First whether only such praiers as were made without the book were accepted of Gods children Secondly whether the same spirit teacheth vs to pray that taught the holie men of God before time You grant both these but that you would seeme to alter the first question wel then Gods owne spirit that taught them to pray without a booke or stinting of wordes teacheth vs so to pray nowe in the action of praying giveth the mouth to utter what the heart desireth moved with the same spirit Still then after your long shifting to and fro I trust you wil stand to your first wordes that you never read in the Scriptures anie commaundement for reading of praiers Secondlie to say over certeine numbers of wordes or phrases of the Scripture of custome or affectation without feeling of or asking for our present wantes is hypocrisie Therefore I wil conclude as I beganne mine Argument standing good that To doe anie thing in the worship of God werof we have no warrant of Gods worde is sinne But read praiers have no warrant in Gods Word Ergo etc. The third Argument We may not in the worship of God receave any tradition which bringeth our libertie into bondage Read prayer upon commandement brought into the publique assemblies is a tradition that bringeth our libertie into bōdage Therefore read prayer c. The Minor is thus proved that God hath left it in all mens freedome to pray as the present occasion requireth and the spirit giveth utterance according to his will Againe no man hath power to commaunde anie thing in the worship of God which God hath not commaunded c. Marke 7.7.8.9 Math. 15. Gal. 5.1 c. GEORGE GIFFORD I say it is ungodlie and neere unto blasphemie to affirme that
by writing to be thrust upon the publique assemblies you are wide and now iustifie homilies insteed of preaching and written praiers instead of praying shew your warrant The CHVRCHES power is limited by the word G. GIFFORD When the prayers be framed and composed of nothing but the doctrine of the Scripture and after the rules of true prayer nothing is brought in which God hath not commanded J. GREENWOOD THis might have come in before your raylings but you sawe it was too silly where is that commaundement of God that all mens writinges in forme of prayer agreable to the Scriptures should be brought into the publique assemblies your bare worde is not enough to put me to silence And when you have gott them into the Church you must prove that God hath commaunded they should be read for praier Where I said our Sauiour Christ never vsed the wordes when he praied in that forme of praier he gave to his Disciples nether commaunded his Disciples to say over these wordes nether do we reade that ever his Apostles did use them or enforced others to vse anie certaine number of wordes you say I spake vntrulie For say you the Disciples desired him to reach them to pray as Iohn taught his Disciples and he commanded them when you pray say Our Father etc. Luke 11. and S. Math. an Apostle hath deliuered the same to the whole Church I answer I have never heard that Iohn Baptist taught his Disciples to say over certeyne wordes nether can it be gathered by our Sauiour Christes answere for he answeared not alwaies the verie demaunde according to their wordes but thereupon tooke occasion to instruct them as the sawe neede And I have proved by the 6. of Math. that our Saviour did not commaunde them to say over the very wordes when they prayd for the word Houtos in Mathew signifieth after this maner Againe that Math. recordeth not the very number or the very same wordes that Luke doth And now I reason thus if Christ had commaunded those very wordes to be said over in praying then we must alwaies when we pray say over those wordes for in Math. 6. he saith when you pray pray thus Our Father etc. The etc. The word when sheweth that this commaundement is to be observed at all tymes And then the Apostles sinned in praying other wordes Acts. 4.24.25 Furder it being the most summary forme of praier most ample most perfect etc. if those wordes were commaunded to be said over then we ought not to vse any others for he is accursed that bringeth not the best offrings he hath Malach 1.14 By all these it is euident that our Saviour nor his Evangelists tyed no man to the very wordes saying over but according to that forme and those instructions and now leave of your popish dreames Yet you would make men belive I reasoned thus that the Apostles did not nether our Saviour himself or anie that we reade of vse these wordes in praier therfore they did not use it Nay I said they did not vse these verie wordes in their praiers but vsed other wordes according to their particular wants as our Saviour in the 17. of Iohn is said to do therfore he nether vsed nor commaunded others to say over those wordes And so I may well cōclude that to impose certaine wordes to be read or said by roate for praying vpon the Church especiallie mens writings is an intollorable pride even a setting of men in the place of God Also that to vse them or bowe downe vnto them in that order is sinne and a breach of Gods lawe The fourth Argument Because true prayer must be of faith vttered with heart and lively voice it is presumptuous ignorance to bring a booke to speake for vs vnto God c. The fift Argument To worship the true God after an other maner then he hath taught is Idolatrie But he Commaundeth vs to come vnto him heavie loaden with contrite hearts to cry unto him for our wantes c. Therfore we may not vse reading of a dead letter instead of powring fourth out petitions The Sixt Argument We must strive in praier with continuance c. But we cannot strive in praier and be importunate with continuance reading vpon a booke Therfore we must not reade when we should pray G. GIFFORD These 3. I ioyned togeather as having no weight you say I answeare by plaine contradiction without Scripture c. And after wardes is not my bare deniall as good as you bare affirmation c. I. GREENWOOD STay your selves and wonder they are blind and make blind Is ther anie doctrine more spirituall anie more inculcated by the holy Ghost thē this accesse vnto God in the mediation of Christ by his owne spirit to make our mindes knowne vnto God to offer vp the fruits of his owne spirit in vs and fetch encrease from him by this secreat worke of true inuocation with the heart and voice This colloquie with the high maiestie of God is it a matter of no weight to learne to discerne between diverse exercises of the spirit and to exercise his graces aright according to his will Right is it said the wisedome of God is foolishnes to the naturall man But Mr GIFFORD wil say he graunteth the propositious true and weightie maters it is the Assumptions that be so frivolous as he said a litle after ridiculous wel let them he weyed 1. That reading instead of praying is not a powring fourth of the heart by lively voyce 2. That it is a quenching of the spirit to reade an other mans wordes vpon a booke in the very action of powring fourth our heart as we pretend 3. That it is not an vnburdening of a contrite heart by faith but an ignorant action to reade for praying 4. That we cannot strive in praier continue in praier be importunate etc. by reading vpon a booke These are matters he thinketh of so litle weight the bare deniall and contradiction wherof he holdeth of such credit that it must suffice for answere seing he saith he hath before proved the vse of reading See here he caleth it the vse of reading He could not say that reading is praying nether that these two exercises of our Faith can be vsed both in one instant as one action I have shewed that proseuche anagnosis praying and reading are divers actions both of the minde and body let the reader consider what weight then this matter is of to talk with the living God But for the benefit of such as have grace to savour the things that are of God I will a litle illustrate the Assumptions at least some of them 1. That it is a quenching of the spirit to reade an other mans wordes vpon a booke when I should powre fourth mine owne heart the word itself must be considered the Apostle commaundeth saying 1. Thessaloniaus 5.19 extinguish ye not the spirit Now to suppresse and leaue vnvttered the passions of our owne heart by the worke