testimonies which also he alleageth out of many bookes both of the old and newe Testament to prooue that the Church should bee spread ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the world He answereth the places of Scriptures which they alleaged to prooue that the world at sundrie times had so fallen away from God that a verie fewe true worshippers remained and why might not they be now as those fewe He sheweth that there be innumerable testimonies to prooue that the open bad did communicate together with the good in the Sacraments and that the good were fewe in comparison of the bad so mixed with them of which after he hath cited many he commeth at the last as it were to a conclusion that al other things remooued hee would haue them shewe their Church out of the holie Scriptures and from the places which are not darke And then it followeth Quisquis ergo huic epistolae responderese praeparat ante denunciationem mihi dicat illi codices dominicos ignibus tradiderunt illi simulacris gentium sacrificauerūt illi nobis iniquissimam persecutionem fecerunt et vos eis in omnibus consensistis Breuiter enim respondeo quod saepè respondi aut falsa dicitis aut si vera sunt non ad frumenta Christi sed ad eorum paleam pertinent ista quae dicitis non inde perit ecclesia quae optimo iudicio ventilata istorum omnium separatione purgabitur That is to say Whosoeuer therefore prepareth himselfe to answere this Epistle let him before the denouncing say vnto me such deliuered the Lords bookes to the fire such sacrificed to the Idols of the Gentiles such haue persecuted vs most vniustlie and you haue consented vnto them in all things For I answer brieflie which I haue often answered either ye speake things which are false or else if they bee true that which ye speake pertaineth not to the corne of Christ but to the chaffe thereof the Church doth not perish thereby which winnowed with most perfect iudgement shall bee purged by the separation of that same chaffe He addeth Ego ipsam ecclesiā requiro vbi sit quae audiendo verba Christi faciendo aedificat super petram audiendo faciendo tolerat eos qui audiendo non faciendo aedificant super arenam Vbi sit triticum quod inter zizania crescit vsque ad messem non quid fecerint vel faciant ipsa zizania Vbi sit proxima Christi in medio filiarum malarum sicut lilium in medio spinarum non quid fecerint vel faciunt ipsae spinae Vbi sunt pisces boni qui donec ad littus perueniant tolerant pisces malos pariter irretitos non fecerint aut faciant ipsi pisces mali That is to say I seeke the Church where she is which in hearing the words of Christ and doing them doth build vpon a rocke and which hearing and doing doth tolerate those which hearing and not dooing doo build vppon the sand Where that wheate is which groweth vp among the tares vntill the haruest come not what the tares haue done or what they doo Where that spouse of Christ is in the middest of the euill daughters as the lillie among the thornes not what the thornes haue done or what they doo Where the good fishes be which vntill they come vnto the shore doo tolerate the euill fishes held in the same nette together not what the euill fishes haue done or what they doo Thus haue I laide open that the Church in olde time was full of open wicked men both of ministers and people That the Donatists vnder the colour of zeale and seueritie against sinne did separate themselues affirming that all were polluted and fallen from the couenant which did communicate in the worship of god and Sacraments with such notorious euill men All men may see by that which I haue noted that the Donatists did maintaine this their opinion with the same Scriptures and argumēts that the Brownists doe maintaine it withall nowe And receiued the same answers to confute them which we make nowe to confute the Brownists This was the maine point of Donatisme and as it were the pith substance therof it is one of the foure chiefe pillers of Brownisme Yea but now the Brownists doe separate themselues from a worship which is Idolatrous full of blasphemies and abhominations The Donatists did rend themselues from an holy and true worship Indeede where the worship is Idolatrous and blasphemous a man is to separate himselfe But there are many and great corruptions before it come to that for it is the true worship of God where the foundation is layd and standeth sure If there be timber Hay and stubble built vpon the foundation the fault is great such things are not to bee approued But yet there is Gods true worship And now to come to the verie poynt of the matter I doe affirme wil stand to iustifie that there were greater corruptions in the worship of God euen in those Churches from which the Donatists did seperate themselues than be at this day in the worship of the Church of England So that if Brownisme be any thing to be excused in that the Donatisme may as iustly therein be defended For if wee consider matters which concerne doctrine what can any man shew so corrupt in this our Church as in the publike worship to pray for the soules of the dead and to offer oblations for the dead This corruption was generall in the Church then yea long before the dayes of Augustine as it appeareth in Cyprian and by Tertullian which was before him and nerer to the time of the Apostles who in his booke De Monogamia reasoning against second mariage for hee was fallen into that error woulde perswade any woman that had buried her husband not to marie againe because he being seperated from her in peace not diuorced she was to pray for his soule and yearely to offer oblation for him thus he writeth Et pro anima eius oret refrigerium interim ad postulet ei in prima resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius That is And let her pray for his soule and craue refreshing for him nowe in the meane time and his felowship in the first resurrection and let her offer yearely vpon the day of his departure It will bee said by some ignorant man that this was but the minde and practise of some few which were corrupt and superstitious I answere it was the practise of the Church in generall and the corruption so auncient that the same Tertullian in his booke De corona militis speaking of it certain other things saith they were obserued by tradition from the Apostles they were obserued so generally in the Churches and no scripture to warrant them These bee his wordes Oblationes pro defunctis annua die facimus Wee make oblations for the dead in the yeerely day The doctrine of Purgatory
to the Scriptures then by that commaundement all are to bee brought in that be agreeable If there be no commandement then none are to be brought in I answere that God hath commaunded that in the Church all thinges bee done for edification now the prayers being the same being holy good are of like maiestie dignitie in thēselues vttred by him that conceaueth them or from a prescript forme the matter resteth not in that but in the faith and feruencie of those that pray there be errours and imperfections as well in the one as in the other but to auoide inconuenience and for the benefite of the simpler sort a prescript forme is needefull so farre commaunded Then see how friuolous this conclusion is that so all mens writinges which are thought to be agreeable to the word are to bee brought in seeing that which is conuenient in some is not conuenient in all His reasons which follow are in effect all one with the former and prooue not that conclusion of his to shut foorth the prescript forme of prayer Let the Brownist now set the word Apocripha aside which is but a woord and not of the Scriptures and go to the matter it selfe drawing by firme conclusion that nothing is to be allowed any place in the Church which is not the perfect rule it selfe in writing or without errours vttred in speech and I will yéelde But this shall all the Brownistes in the world be neuer able to do as I haue sufficiently shewed before What then or where is his glorie and victorie which he boasteth off to be such that hee needeth to proceede no further But nowe I woulde haue the reader to vnderstande my meaning aright and how I argue least any should thinke I compare the hauing the Bible in a translation and the prayers and Sermons of the Pastors with the prescribed forme of prayer to be of but equall or like necessitie The summe of that I set downe is to this effect that it is false which Maister Greenewood standeth to prooue namely that nothing with errour in it is to bee brought into the publicke assemblies seeing there is a necessitie of hauing the scriptures in a translation there is also a necessitie of hauing the sermons and Prayers of the Ministers and yet errours in both that which is of necessitie to be had may not bee cast foorth because of imperfections and errours then also prescript forme of prayers though not of necessitie yet for conueniencie vnto edification is not to be cast foorth because of imperfections being not to increase but to diminish the errours in praying The next argument is this Wee must doe nothing in the worship of God without warrant of his word Read prayers haue no warrant of his woorde How false this assumption is namely That to reade a prayer when one doth pray or to followe a prescript forme hath no warrant in Gods woord I haue shewed by sundrie scriptures and reasons and answered al the shifts brought against them for which I referre the Reader to my former booke Maister Greenewood pressed with the waight of truth and finding he had vttred grosse matter could be content but that as he saith to answere vnconscionable slaunders to stay in the first argument as hauing wonne the field but yet he goeth on and by vaine shiftes wil doe as well as he can to couer his fault First he accuseth me that not hauing answered one reason I haue with much euill conscience as the handling sheweth peruerted them saying hee will leaue them to be iudged of them that shall see his writing and seeing I would not Print it he will answere my chief obiections Touching this I answere that your words are manie and I esteemed it a weariesome matter to write them all accounting it sufficient to note your reasons but looke whatsoeuer ye complayne off that I haue peruerted and done ye wrong in ye shall haue them in those pointes fully and wholy deliuered that all the worlde may see and iudge betweene vs whether I haue wilfully and vnconscionably and as a godlesse man as ye accuse me charged ye with any one thing which your words doe not containe Now to proceede to your replie First yee say that I graunt your Argument is sounde if yee put difference between reading vpon the booke and that which one hath learned out of the booke For by your owne confession say you God hath not giuen any commandement to read prayer and so it hath no warrant Hereupon yee charge mee that as an vnconstant man I call back againe that which I had graunted I saide I did not remember that euer I did read in the holie Scriptures that God commandeth the prayer shall bee read vpon the Booke If I haue called now to remembrance where it is reade It were no vnconstancie to say now there is commaundement But in deede I doe not remember I haue euer reade any such commaundement But now you boast of your gaines by this confession saying that I graunt then there is no warrant Lay all my words together and yee may put your gaine in your eye and see neuer the worse I set downe first of all that it is great audatitie to affirme that there is no warrant of the word for read prayer seeing there be sundrie testimonies to warrant the same as I haue shewed for the Lord prescribed a forme of blessing and commaunded the Priests so to blesse Num. 6. He prescribed a forme of prayer for the people at the offering the first fruites and cōmaunded thē to vse it Deutr. 26 The Psalme for the sabaoth was commaunded to bee song the Psalme 22. was to bee song euerie morning and these they were tied vnto by expresse commaundement though not to the booke because it is more commendable to haue them by heart And the Lorde dooth not tye a man to that which is lesse cōmendable This is the summe of that reason which I vsed from whence there is warrant to followe a prescript forme Master Greenewood vrgeth this if there be no commaundement then there is no warrant and affirmeth it to bee inconstancie to say there is no commaundement to reade praying and yet some warrant for it by the word I haue answered that God tied the Priests and people vnto some prescript formes though not preciselie to the booke And though that were legall and no such commandement to tie men of necessitie now yet it sheweth the thing to be holie and lawfull Further I adde if wee respect the matter as we say in the These or for a generalty there is no commandement for then it should bee of necessitie and not for conueniencie But if we regarde it in the Hypothese for circumstances in particularitie there is commaundement as thus God hath commaunded those thinges too bee done which serue as helpes for edification or be most conueuient Then where the state of anie man or the state of the assemblies is such as that prescript forme
compell men but rather inuite them Quodsi cogi per legem aliquem vel ad bona licuisser vosipsi miseri a nobis ad sidem purissimam cogi debuistis Sed absit absit a nostra conscientia vt ad nostram sidem aliquem compellamus If it were lawfull saith this Donatist that anie should by the Lawe be compelled yea euen vnto good things you wretches ought to bee compelled by vs to the most pure faith but farre be it farre be it from our conscience that we should compell anie vnto our faith chapt 83. Quid vobis est cum regibus seculi quos nunquam Christianit as nisi inuidos sensit What haue you to doo with the Kings of the Worlde which the Christianitie hath neuer felt but enuious against it Chapter 92. Compare now the doctrine of our Brownists and their sayings with these former of the Donatists and see if there bee anie difference They say Princes are not to make Lawes for Church matters Princes are not to reforme the Church by their authoritie Princes are not to compell their subiects to the true worship of God by penalties If Princes pleasures are to be attended where is the persecution wee speake of None of the godlie Kings of Iudea durit compell anie to the couenant The people of Christs Kingdome are spontanes such as come of their owne free accord c. It were too long and tedious to set foorth all the outcries of the Donatists their glorying in suffering persecutions for the trueth their accusations against the pastors of Christs Churche and the Princes while they sought to restraine their furie the one by Gods word the other by lawes that they persecuted and therefore could not be the true Church which as they say is persecuted but neuer persecuteth reade the epistle of Parmenian of Petilian and of Cresconius The Brownists are not behinde them an intch in this matter but crie out as fast of Antichristian persecutors boasting of their patience and sufferings calling themselues the persecuted remnant the poore afflicted c. Aug. answereth those Donatists at large I will recite but a little Cum phreneticus medicum vexet medicus phreneticum liget aut ambo inuicem persequuntur aut si persecutio quae malo sit non est non vtiq persequitur medicus phreneticum sed phreneticus medicum When the man that is in phrensie dooth vex the phisitian and the phisitian dooth binde him that is in phrensie either both doo persecute each other or else if that bee not a persecution which is done to the euill then verelie the phisitian dooth not persecute the phrantick or mad man but the phrantick or mad man dooth persecute the phisitian Against Cresconius Booke 4. Chapter 51. his application is that the penall Lawes of the Princes were as the bands of the Phisitian to binde the Phrensie and furious outrage of the Donatists And whereas they boasted of patience and woulde compell none He answereth that because they bee not able to resist so manie nations which were Catholike they gloried of patience that they compelled none to their part Hee then addeth Isto modo miluus cum pullos rapere territus non potuerit co lūbum se nominet After the same sort the Puttocke when he is fraid and can not snatch away the chickens may name himselfe a Doue For he doth demaund of them what they haue not done which they were able When Iulian the Apostata being Emperour enuying the peace of Christ shewed them fauour and graunted to them Churches what slaughters they committed Likewise he sheweth in many places what reuell their circumcellions made which in companies walking with clubbes and staues did spoile and beate such as light into their handes vsing moreouer a sauage crueltie in putting vineger and lime into mens eies when they had beaten them And verely what is it which men of excéeding intemperate heate will not doe if it bee once in their power against such as they shall iudge to bee but as vile Idolaters and persecutors of Christes truth The impatient heate of most Brownistes is not vnknowē but when the Kites for feare can not snatch vp the Chickens must professe the mekenes of Doues as to say weare Christes poore afflicted seruants we be meeke and patient we beare the crosse Where it is taught that priuate men are authorised to deale and furie aboundeth which things are among the Brownistes who is able to expresse the tragedies that would ensue if power were not wanting in thē the Princes may not stoppe their course and who shall then resist The Donatists abusing the scriptures in their plentifull allegations and finding that their grosenesse was detected much by the skill of artes found fault that any thing should be scanned by the rules of Logike The Brownistes are euen with them if not beyond In his first booke against Cresconius Chap. 14 Augustine reporteth the wordes of that Donatist thus Vestros Episcopos laudas quod nobiscum velut dialecticis nolint habere sermonem Thou doest commend your Bishoppes that they refuse to haue speech or conference with vs as being Logicians He answereth at large in shewing what Logicke is and the worthie and necessarie vse thereof in discussing matters of religion Browne in the preface of his booke which hee saith sheweth the life and manners of Christians calleth them sophisticall diuines which deale by the rules of Logicke The Brownistes with whome I deale charge the students of the Vniuersities as trained vp in vaine and curious Artes. And what other cause shall euer be shewed of so barbarous an errour but that they would not haue their matters tried by the rules which make manifest which is truth and which is falsehoode Thus haue I briefely laide open that the whole Donatisme is maintained by the Brownistes and therefore I haue rightly termed them the Donatistes of England An answere to Master Greenewood touching read prayer MAster Greenewood in the preface of his booke dooth shew that the reasons spread abroade in writing against read praier were his which I did not knowe before now and therefore bee taketh vpon him the defence of them He would seeme to haue found out such a deapth of spirituall wisdome touching the holie exercise of prayer and so reprooueth the grosenes of this age that wee must esteeme him for the aboundance of spirit as an other Montanus For whereas hee seemeth to charge this age onelie as grosse in this poynt in verie deede he accuseth all ages all Churches and all the learned teachers that haue beene since the Apostles so that in the gifts of the spirite he excelleth all Hee saieth hee could yet neuer see it set downe which is the true praier that onelie pleaseth God It is a strange thing hee hath neuer heard that whosoeuer asketh in faith whether it be with prescript forme or otherwise it is the onelie true praier that pleaseth God Hee saieth I haue flien vpon him with bitternesse of spirite and
A Plaine Declaration that our Brownists be full Donatists by comparing them together from point to point out of the writings of Augustine Also a replie to Master Greenwood touching read prayer wherein his grosse ignorance is detected which labouring to purge himselfe from former absurdities doth plunge himselfe deeper into the mire By George Gyffard Minister of Gods word in Maldon BY PEACE PLENTY BY WISDOME PEACE TO AT LONDON Printed for Toby Cooke dwelling at the Tygers head in Paules Churchyard 1590. TO THE RIGHT HOnorable Sir William Cecill Knight of the Garter Baron of Burghley Lord high Treasurer of England and Chauncellor of the Vniuersitie of Cambridge Grace and peace I Published a Booke Right Honourable against the Brownists who complaine of hard dealing and not onlie they but others in that I haue termed them Donatists and charge them with sundrie foule matters And hauing now receiued from them an answer vnto one part of that my booke I haue also framed this replie In which I first set downe from point to point out of the writings of the holie Father Augustine with what Scriptures and arguments it was defended and so compare our mens writings and doings with the same They must for this chuse either to affirme that the Donatists had the truth and the churches were perished or else shewe some materiall points of Donatisme which they doo not hold And then in the latter part of this my booke I answer to that which is published now by them against read prayer As I was bold to present the former vnto your Honor so do I also humblie offer this presuming vpon your Honors fauourable acceptation And thus I beseech the Lord God to blesse and prosper your Honor. Amen To the Reader GOod Christian reader I published a booke against the Brownists whom I haue in the same termed the Donatists of England How farre of I was from purposing anie such thing at the first and how I was drawne into it afterward I haue in that former booke truly reported And for warrant of my doing before the Lord I had no doubt but that it should bee an acceptable seruice to Christ notwithstanding when I respect the waightines and necessitie of the worke I haue alwaies wished and do wish that some man of greater learning might deale against thē Neither as yet am I cast into any thoughts of doubting by the mislike or fault finding of some in all places which are no Brownists But I am rather thrust forward by beholding that weakenes of iudgement and want of vnderstanding not in a feaw touching the foulnes of Donatisme and by the sight of such nerenes of multitudes vnto the danger which before I coulde not suspect Now touching the faultes which are found which causeth the mislike they are partelie for the matter it selfe and partlie for the manner of dealing both in it as also towards the persons themselues against whome I write In the matter some haue found fault as though I should stand to cleere to iustifie al things not onlie in the Booke of Common praier but also in the calling and ordination of our Ministers and in our Church gouernement others affirme that I haue diminished the faults which are esteemed to be in these and made them lighter at the least by not reproouing them The first sort I cannot but meruaile at seeing I haue in that my former booke set downe expressie in these words that the matter in question betweene the Brownists and me is not about the controuersie in our Church as whether there be imperfections corruptions and faults in our Worship Ministerie and Church gouernement nor how many great or smal but whether there be such heinous enormities as destroy the verie life and being of a true Church and make an vtter diuorse from Christ I doo then lay open the state of this question so plainelie as I know not how to make it more plaine now vnles I should run through euerie particular which wee deale in which I thought to be needlesse but now I will a little stand vpon it They reckon Romish fasts Ember dayes Saincts eues and Lent Idoll feasts as Alhallowes Candlemas seuerall Ladie daies Saincts daies dedicating Churches vnto Saints Comminations Rogations and Purifications Tithes Offerings Mortuaries howsling the sick with the Sacrament absolution and blasphemous dirges and funerall Sermons ouer and for the dead Corrupt manner of administring the Sacraments the Font the crosse in Baptisme Baptisme by women gossippings blasphemous and hereticall collects These and certaine other haue they set downe to bee in the Booke not vnder the termes of faults blemishes and corruptions but as heresies blasphemies and abominations and that such as ouerturne the foundation of the Christian faith destroy the substance of Gods worship and take away the life and beeing of a true Church To this I haue answered that they be foule slaunderours liars false accusers shewing that our Church hath renounced in those former things that which is blasphemous and hereticall or so abominable as that it approacheth neerest to the destroying of the faith and holy worship of the Lord. As namelie the remission of sinnes and merite of eternall life by fasting which is the doctrine of the Romish church The worship and inuocation of Saints and Angels the power of expelling Diuels by the signe of the crosse and such like things which the papacie is full of but reiected by vs. If the Brownists in their replie against that I haue written shall prooue by the word of God that there be great corruptiōs in our praiers in our fasts in our keeping the Saints dayes in the Crosse and in manie other things which bee in our Church as in our Ministerie and Church gouernemēt And further if their proofes be neuer so clere strong from the Scriptures yet they answere not me at al nor touch the question or controuersie between them and me vnles they can prooue them to be such faults as destroy the worship of God ouerturne the foundation of the faith and take away the verie life and being of true Christianitie If I say they do not prooue them according as they haue set thē downe to bee blasphemies heresies abominations yea the verie worship and yoake of Antichrist the marke of the beast and his power I remaine vnanswered and they stand conuicted as liars slanderers and most wicked false accusers not of particular persons but of whole Churches For I shewed in expresse wordes that I doo not meddle at all in these questions whether there bee corruptions and faults in our Church condemned by Gods word whether they bee manie or fewe whether they bee small or great but onelie thus farre whether they bee such or so great as make our Churches Antichristian Here therefore I doo intreate the Christian Reader to fixe his eyes in reading my writings and theirs onelie vppon this one question whether there be in our Church any errors or faults that be found amentall Looke if
man can be made partaker of the iniquitie but he that eyther doth the wicked things or else doth approoue them And who hath felowship with darknes but he that by the darknes of his consent forsaking Christ doth follow Belial who putteth his part with infidels but he which is partarker of that infidelitie for that way he ceaseth to be the tēple of God neither otherwise dooth hee ioyne himselfe to idols And they which are the temple of the liuing God and in the middest of a crooked and peruerse generation appeare as lights in the world hauing the word of life nothing doth infecte them which they tolerate for vnities sake neither are they pent vp in anie straight because God dooth dwell in them and walke in them And they depart out of the middest of the euill and in the meane while are seperate at leastwise in heart least perhaps while they would doo that by sedition of Schisme they should rather be spirituallie separated from the good than corporallie from the bad Thus farre Augustine for seperation in heart when it cannot be in bodie Againe he saith answering Parmenian to this sentence bee not partaker of other mens sinnes chap. 20. Nos dicimus quod qui non facit malum nec facienti consentit facientem arguit firmus atque integer inter iniquos tanquam frumentum inter paleas conuersatur We say that he which dooth not commit euill nor consent to him that dooth and rebuketh him that dooth he is conuersant firme and sound among the wicked as the corne among the chaffe Now whereas the Donatists did replie that the separation from the open sinners which God commandeth could not be meant of a separation onelie in heart and mind for so we ought to be separate from the heathen with whom yet it was lawfull to eate for S. Paul willeth If an infidell bid thee to a feast goe but if anie that is called a brother bee a fornicator an idolater or couetous with such see that yee eate not this must néedes be vnderstood of a bodelie separation the Brownists pressing this Argument also as the Donatists did say we might eate common bread with infidels yea at the same common table with such vngodlie Christians as Paul forbiddeth to eate with and therefore the commandement of the Apostle they say is plaine which all men ought to obey that if open sinners come to the holy table of the Lorde wee ought not there to eate with them But let vs see the answer of Augustine in the third booke against Parmenian Chap. 3. His words in déede are manie but I will set them downe because they be so full and pregnant to declare wherein the controuersie lay betweene the Donatists and the Churches and why the Donatists made separation In hac velut angustia quaestionis non aliquid nouum aut insolitum dicam sed quod sanitas obseruat ecclesiae vt cum quisque fratrum id est Christianorum intus in ecclesiae societate constitutorum in aliquo tali peccato fuerit deprehensus vt anathemate dignus habeatur fiat hoc vbi periculum Schismatis nullum est atque id cum ea dilectione de qua ipse alibi praecipit dicens vt inimicum eum non existimetis sed corripite vt fratrem non enim estis ad eradicandum sed ad corrigendū quod si se non agnouerit neque poenitendo correxerit ipse for as exiet per propriam voluntatem ab ecclesiae vnitate dirimetur Nam ipse dominus cùm seruis volentibus ZiZania colligere dixit sinete vtraque crescere vsque ad messem praemisit causam dicens ne forte cum vultis colligere Zizanea eradicetis simul triticum Vbi satis ostendit cum metus iste non subest sed omnino de frumentorum certa stabilitate certa securitas manet id est quando ita cuiusque crimen notum est omnibus omnibus execrabile apparet vt vel nullos prorsus vel non tales habeat definsores per quos possit schisma contingere non dormiat seueritas disciplinae in qua tantò est efficacior emendatio prauitatis quantò diligentior confirmatio charitatis tum autem hoc sine labe pacis vnitatis sine laesione frumentorum fieri potest cùm congregationis ecclesiae multitudo ab eo crimine quod anathematizatur aliena est Tunc enim adiuuat praepositum potius corripientem quam criminosum resistentem tunc se ab eius coniunctione salubriter continet vt nec cibum cum eo quisquam sumat non rabie inimica sed coertione fraterna Tunc etiam ille timore percutitur pudore sanatur cum ab vniuersa ecclesiasc anathematizatum videns sociam turbam cum qua in delicto suo gaudeat bonis insultet non potest inuenire That is to say As it were in this straight of the question I will not speake any thing that is new or vnwonted but that which the soundnes of the Church dooth obserue that when anie of the Brethren that is of the Christians which haue place within in the vnitie of the Church be taken in some such sinne that hee may bee accounted worthie to bee excommunicate let it bee done where there is no danger of a Schisme and the same with that loue of which hee commaundeth elsewhere saying esteeme him not as an enemie but admonish him as a Brother for yee are not to roote vp but to amend If that hee shall not acknowledge himselfe neither reforme himselfe by repentance hee shall depart out and by his owne will shall bee cut from the vnitie of the Church For the Lord himselfe when he saide to the seruants which would gather the tares suffer both to grow together shewed a cause saying least peraduenture while yee goe about to roote vp the tares ye pluck vp also with them the wheate Where hee dooth plainelie shew that when there is no such feare but there remaineth a full securitie of the vndoubted stabilitie of the corne that is when the crime of any one is so knowne to all and appeareth execrable vnto all that either it can haue no defenders at all or else not such by whome there may a Schisme fall out let not the seueritie of discipline sleepe in which the curing of the disease is so much more effectuall as the confirmation of loue is more diligent Then also this may bee done without any blot of peace and vnitie and without hurting the corne when the multitude of the assemblie of the Church is free from that crime for which the excommunication is denounced For then they rather helpe the pastor that dooth chastice than the guiltie offendor which resisteth then euerie man dooth healthfullie abstaine from his fellowship and not so much as eate meate with him not of an enemie like mad rage but of a brotherlie reprehension Then hee also is stricken with feare and healed through shame when seeing himself
tamen nulla corporali diremptione separauerit That is Esay saide Depart depart come out from thence and touch not that which is vncleane But whie did hee himselfe in one congregation with them touch that vncleannes which hee reprooued in that people They may read how great things hee vttered against the wicked of his people how vehementlie and trulie from whome notwithstanding hee did separate himselfe with no bodelie separation After he hath shwed the like in the holie Prophet Dauid who professed hee had not sit in the counsell of vaine men and yet was not separate in bodie from the vngodlie in his dayes He addeth Nonne si eorum verba factis eorum obijceremus responderent nobis nos planè cum talibus nullum habuimus in corde consortium nec tangebamus immundum vbi potest coinquinari contactus id est consensione at que placito conscientiae recedebamus exibamus ab eis qui non solùm talia non faciebamus sed nec facientibus tacebamus If we should obiect their words against their deedes would they not answer vs wee haue had vtterlie no fellowship in heart with such wicked men neither did we touch that which is vncleane where the touching may be defiled That is to say wee did depart and come out from them in consent and likening of conscience which our selues not onelie did not doo such things but also kept not silence to them that did such wickednes Against Parmenian booke 3. chap. 4. Again in the same place he addeth Postremò si Prophetae posteros monuerunt vt se ante tempus vltimae ventilationis a paleis corporaliter separarent tali separatione cauerent tangere immundum cum facinorosis non introirent cur hoc non fecit Apostolus Paulus An palea noÌ„ erant qui non ex veritate sed ex inuidia Christum annunciabant An immundi non erant qui non castè euangelium praedicarunt Hos in illis temporibus ecclesia fuisse testatur cuius excellentissimam charitatem omnia tolerantem etiam posteriores imitati sunt That is Lastlie if the Prophets gaue warning to the posteritie that they should before the time of the last winnowing separate themselues from the chaffe in bodie and by such separation take heede of touching any vncleane thing and that way not to enter with the wicked dooers whie did not the Apostle Paul doo so Were not they chaffe which preached Christ of enuie and not for the trueth Were not they vncleane which preached the Gospell not purelie That there were such in the Church at those times hee dooth testifie Philip 1. Whose most excellent charitie induring or tolerating all things those that suceeded haue also imitated Hauing thus affirmed that this most excellent loue of Paul tolerating open wicked men in the church where they could not without danger of schisme be cast foorth was imitated of the godlie pastors that succéeded he alleageth for example holie Cyprian who testifying that not onelie the people but also manie of his fellowe Bishoppes were horriblie wicked yet liued in peace with them and did not separate himselfe in bodie Thus hee demaundeth An immunditia an etiam auaritia quam Cyprianus corde non tetigit tamen inter auaros collegas pacatisssimè vixit Was it not vncleannes was it not also couetousnes which Cyprian touched not in heart and yet liued most peaceablie among his couetous fellowe Bishops He knew right well what God commaundeth in the Psalme that hee should not sit in the counsell of vaine men nor enter with the wicked dooers An non erat conuenticulum vanitatis in eis qui esurientibus in ecclesia fratribus largissimo argento nitere cupiebant An non erant facinorosi qui fuundos insidiosè fratribus rapiebant An nequissimi impij non erant qui vsuris multiplicantibus foenus augebant Ille vero lauabat manus suas cum innocentibus circundabat altare domini Ideo quippe tolerabat nocentes ne deserâ—ret innocentes cum quibus manus lauabat quia diligebat speciâ—m domus domini quae species in vasis honorabilibus fuit That is Was not the conuenticle of vanitie among them which while their brethren indured hunger or penurie in the Church did couet to shine gorgeouslie with most aboundant wealth Were not they wicked dooers which by deceiptfull meanes in such rauening sort tooke from their brethren possessions of Lands Were they not most vngodlie and wicked which with multiplying vsurie did increase their gaine But Cyprian did wash his hands with innocents and compassed the Altar of the Lord. He tolerated the wicked least he should forsake those innocent with whom hee washed his hands because hee loued the beautie of the Lords house which beautie was in the vessels for honour Now where the Donatists might obiect shall the discipline then be neglected and wicked men suffered to liue at their pleasure in the Church Augustine answereth both them and all others touching this obiection first in his third booke against Parmenian chap. 1. Quapropter quisquis etiam contempserit ecclesiae Dei disciplinam vt malos cum quibus non peccat quibus non fauet desistat monere corrigere arguere si etiam talem gerit personam pax ecclesiae patitur vt etiam à sacramentorum participatione quem piam possit separare non alieno malo peccat sed suo ipsa quippe in tanta re negligentia graue malum est ideò sicut Apostolus admonet si auferet maluÌ„ a seipso non solum aufirreâ— audaciam committendi aut pestilentiam consentiendi sed etiam pigritiam corrigendi negligentiam vindicandi adhibita prudentia obedientia in eo quod praecepit dominus ne frumenta laedantur That is to say Wherfore whosoeuer also shall despise the discipline of Gods Church so that he giue ouer admonishing correcting and reprouing the euill men with whome hee dooth not sinne and whome he dooth not fauour yea if he beare such office and the peace of the Church permit that hee may also separate any from the participation of the Sacraments and dooth not he sinneth by his owne falt and not by the falt of another For the verie negligence it selfe in so great a matter is a grieuous sinne and therefore as the Apostle dooth warne If he will take away euil from himselfe hee must not onelie take away the boldnes of committing it or the pestilence of consenting thereto but also the slouthfulnes of correcting and negligence of reuenging the same prudentlie obeying in that which the Lorde hath commaunded that the wheate may not be hurt In his third booke against Petilian Chapt. 4. hauing before shewed that there is a worthie patience in suffering the false brethren for the vnities sake he addeth Neque hoc ideo dixerim vt negligatur ecclesiastica disciplina permittatur quisque facere quod velit sine vlla correptione quadam medicinali vindicta terribili lenitate charitatis
Greenwood answere whether the voice of an other that prayeth whether fasting listing vp the eyes and hands which hee mentioned or whether prosirating the bodie and kneeling be prayer it selfe or outward meanes to make the prayer more feruent Euerie simple man will laugh at him if he say they be prayer it selfe whereupon hee must bee forced to confesse they bee but outward helpes and meanes Then aske master Greenwood againe whether a man be to fast to kneele downe to prostrate his bodie to lifte vp his eyes and hands onely before the action of prayer or in praying If he answere what a question is that what foole will say before those things are to be done in the very instant and action of prayer Then all men may sée that master Greenwood hath brought this I will not say from an idle braine for I should not say true but from an vnsound braine that he may confirme by many testimonies of scripture that the spirit onely helpeth our infirmities in the present action of prayer that no peruerted spirit shal be able to gayn-say or resist Yee sée the spirit of trueth can resist it and proue that not onely before prayer but euen in the very action of prayer outward helps and meanes especially for the ignorant and dull are needfull and good and therefore the Brownists spirit is a false spirit which saith The scripture teacheth euery where that in praying the spirite onely helpeth our infirmities no other helps mentioned or can be collected in the present action of praier In the next place where hee had said A troubled heart is the pen of a readie writer therfore needeth not a booke I sayd here can bee no good argument without an absolute perfection in knowledge cheerefulnes direction memorie and vtterance and that many are so perplexed in their troubles of heart that they cannot pray which through helpe of outward meanes doe powre foorth tears and supplications He will not allow this for any answere but doth distinguish of troubled mindes The troubled minde he speaketh of which is the pen of a readie writer is when the minde is presently moued with the sight of some sin or vrged by other occasion a broken spirite a broken and contrite heart Psal 51. and not the minde which in dispaire or doubt is perplexed Then I answere that he must allow these latter the helpes and outward meanes that they may be rid of their doubt and perplexitie Moreouer there is no man so perfect in faith but he hath great remnants in him of dispaire and doubting Why else did Dauid crie out Correct me not in thy wrath my bones are troubled Psal 6. Cast me not out from thy face Psal 51 While I kept silence my bones did weare away my moysture was turned into the drought in Summer psal 32. Hath God forgottē to be merciful hath he shut vp his compassiōs in wrath psal 77. Whereupon it doth follow that there is no man but may be fore troubled and perplexed with doubts when the hand of God is heauie vpon him and the sight of his sinnes doth terrifie him It is not the glorie of faith to bee where there are us doubts of dispaire or no perplexities but to get the victorie ouer them when they do assaile it Therfore the ignoranter sorte in perplexitie need outward helps The next part of mine answere that such as be troubled and perplexed and cannot pray are holpen by a booke and by other meanes hee doth allow and agree vnto So that wee make reading one thing and praying another Who doubteth that they be two things did not I set downe at the first that the bodely action of reading is not the worship of God Then master Greenwood hath his desire seeing as he saith wee cannot do both at once he that prayeth speaketh to God My God why doest thou hide thy face from me But the Priest may say My booke whie art thou so euill printed For when they reade the heart cannot reason and talke with God If the matter written in the booke bee a speach directed vnto God as In thee O Lord haue I put my trust let me neuer be confoūded let master Greenewood or all the Brownists in the world bring anie coulour of reason to prooue that a man cannot at the same instant both vtter it with his mouth in reading and pray it with his heart Master Greenwood must denie this againe For alas what stuffe is this or els how did they sing psalms to GOD and reade them vpon the booke how can a man heare and pray both at one instant Then in the next where he saith I did but assume the question in affirming that a man may pray by the spirit vpon a booke c. his argument being thus That none worship God but they which from the inward faith of the heart bring foorth true inuocation This doo not they that reade vpon the booke while they pray I sayd he bringeth nothing to prooue the assumption but that which is friuolous For that it is sayd wee would haue men instead of powring foorth their hearts to helpe themselues vpon a booke I answere that we wish men to vse the helpe of a booke that they may the better powre foorth their hearts to GOD beeing such as are not otherwise throughly able And that we would haue men to fetch the cause of their sighing and sorrowing from another mans writing euen in the time of their begging at Gods hand I answered how fondlie doo ye make that to bee the cause which doth but manifest the cause For that which we reade or heare doth but shewe vnto vs the miserie which is within and how it shall bee cured Now let the reader obserue how simple shifts he findeth here The first is the difference betweene reading and praying the one beeing a powring foorth of supplications the other a receiuing into the soule such things as wee reade I pray ye tell me but this when one heareth a prayer pronounced by another with whom he praieth doth not his hearing receiue it into his soule and at the very same instant also he doth powre it foorth as a praier to GOD Are not the receiuing in and the powring foorth done both at once How will he auoid the follie that I charged him withall when receiuing in and powring foorth goe together at the same instant But it is beyond all the rest that he saith I graunt the whole question by granting that reading the prayers is not the prayer but an helpe Is it all one to aske whether a man may be holpen to prayer by reading and whether the reading it selfe be praier Hereupon hee also inferreth that all our assemblies haue had none other inuocation of Gods name but an helpe to teach them to power foorth their hearts Then belike it followeth that wheresoeuer the helpe is there is or there can be no more because such as read vpon a booke when they pray haue a good helpe to further
the like because the aduerb thus doth signifie the like and not the same But hée rendreth a reason which is that we haue but the summe of their prophesies recorded vnto vs by the holie Ghost and not all the words Because we haue not all the words therefore haue we not the same in those that are set downe Did the holie Ghost vse this word Coh to giue vs to vnderstand that there is written but an abridgement or summe of matters and not the same words that they were vttered in but some such like Againe did the holie Ghost recorde them are they not all his words which are written in the summe of the prophesies set downe Shall we beléeue this man I doo beléeue him in this that he saith the holie Ghost did record them for therein he speaketh the trueth But when he saith that thus saith the Lord is not these same words saith the Lord but the like because thus is an aduerb of likenes it is a vile saying Is not the holie Ghost the Lord If hée had spoken those things before in moe words and now recordeth them in fewer saying thus saith the Lord doth not he speake these fewer words which are written as well as those moe wordes which were vttered Are they not then thus saith the Lord euen the verie same words which the Lord speaketh and not like If ye make many such expositions of words ye may leade me whether ye will There is then another reason rendred to prooue that the Priests were not tied vnto those wordes in blessing the people namely that in prayer they are blessed in the Psalmes and in the Chronicles with many other words And Eli blessed Hanna in other words It is not the question whether at any time the people might bee blessed in other words in fewer or in moe but whether the Priests had not that forme prescribed to vtter in blessing the whole assemblie and whether it were Idolatrie to vse those prescript phrases of wordes As likewise it is not maintained that when our Sauiour saith say thus that wee may not pray in other words or expresse our petitions more particularlie but that we may vse those words and sentences as most excellent petitions Against this Master Greenwood bringeth nothing in his words that followe For Master Caluine neuer held it vnlawful to pray in that forme of words though he teach truelie that men are not so tied vnto it that they may vse none other And therefore it standeth firme and sure that the forme of words in the Lords Prayer is to bee lawfullie vsed praying In the next part Master Greenwood is in a great heate and maketh an outcrie to call men to the beholding of an iniurie which I as he saith as a godles man haue done him Here saith he I must call all men that reade this fruitles discourse to be witnesse c. Indeede ye may well call it a fruitles discourse which ye call men that reade to beare witnesse with ye and let the reader iudge by your exposition of Coh whether it be not worse than fruitlesse which ye spread among the ignorant sort which are readie to sucke in such filthie dregges The abuse of my tongue to the defacing of Gods trueth is that I sayd he calleth all men Idolaters And to make the matter cléere that he spake not the words but I my selfe he maketh a briefe repetition how we fell into that matter But before we procéede any further I pray ye tell me what is the reason that I hauing set downe your whole discourse touching this poynt so that you cannot denie but that I haue also set it downe truely you forsake that and set downe by péece meale but some of your words and reason from them If I had ment in a godles manner wilfully to peruert your words would I haue deliuered them whole and together in print It seemeth ye haue some hope that some men will reade your booke which will not compare it with mine or which being carried with blind heate cannot Now I craue no more of the reader but to marke the whole speach which you deliuered and mine answere to it and to iudge indifferently If Master Greenwoods words bee not such as must needes include that which I haue collected let me beare the blame for that matter which is one of the least He saith I haue an euasion to auoide this foyle because I sayd I tooke it we reasoned about such grosse Idolatrie as a Church is to bee condemned and forsaken for which is defiled therewith He saith he neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse And I say then he must go from his owne words which affirme that read prayer offered vp to GOD as a sacrifice is Idolatrie that to reade the prayer while one praieth is a chaunging the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a bondage and breaking of Christian libertie a thing most detestable a deuice of Antichrist Let all men iudge by these speaches what manner of Idolatrie was in question betweene vs. Master Greenwood as if he had wonne the field will needs put me to my raunsome and asketh what mends I will make him for this slandering I answer that as your victorie is but in a dreame so my raunsome must be therafter If I could sée I had done ye wrong I would be sorie Ye will haue no man free from such foule Idolatrie but yet no Idolaters No Church is free ye confesse from all spot vpon earth Hereupon ye growe againe into a newe heate and charge me out of one mouth to giue contrarie sentence because I call ye Donatists Why man are ye ignorant of this that the Donatists did confesse all men to bee sinners and yet the arguments by which they would maintaine their schisme could not bee strong vnlesse they would maintaine a perfection and some of their reasons though they ment not so reached so farre And so is it with you Brownists If one should followe ye in all the grosse absurdities which will followe from your exposition of Coh thus saith the Lord could you haue any way but to protest ye did meane no such thing Wee may not looke what men protest they hold but what doth followe of their reasons and then ye shall see that such as be in schisme and heresie are with the blasts of their swelling pride tossed and hurled vpon contrarie Rockes Now whereas I sayd the confession of the Brownists that there is no Church in earth without spottes of Idolatrie doth ouerthrowe the reasons which they bring to condemne the Church of England Because they cannot argue thus this is a fault it is Idolatrie therefore this or that assemblie which is spotted is no true Church But they must prooue the Idolatrie to bee such as destroyeth the faith c. Master Greenwood would beare men in hand that I reason as simplie as to say if there bée no true Church in earth without spots then the Church of
of prayer is conuenient and needefull for edification there it is commanded Now let the reader obserue againe your words which are that al our ministers must leaue reading their stincted praiers vpon the booke or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that so praye with them Master Greenewood complaineth of great iniury wheÌ„ I gather from his words that he condemneth all Churches because hee knoweth that is a matter sufficient alone to bewray the wickednes of Brownisme Now if all our Ministers which pray vpon the booke and the people that pray with them stand vnder the wrath of God for this thing then cannot they be the Church of God for GOD loueth his Church and all Churches haue prescript formes of prayer which their Ministers vse therfore they all stand vnder Gods wrath But they doo it ignorantlie will he say and so say I did all our Churches vntill his papers came abroad and manie haue not as yet seene them and some that haue seene them are not perswaded and so are ignorant still The next thing ye deale with is the Argument which I drawe from the singing Psalmes vpon the booke it is so cleere they did sing them vpon the booke that the Brownist himselfe cannot denie it It is also most manifest they did sing them as hee also now confesseth to God for so are we commaunded in many places sing praises to God Then further he that offereth vp praise to God reading it cannot be gainsaide but that he offereth vp a spirituall sacrifice to God reading Yea praise is one parte of prayer and it is as hard a thing to speake praises to God vpon the booke as to craue by petitions vpon the booke and as spirituall a worke and I may say a more high seruice where is then that grosse fantasie of Master Greenewood which because reading is one thing and speaking to God is another saith a man cannot both read and speake to God at once He cannot say O my God when he readeth but O my booke why art thou so euill printed I argue if the people of God in olde time did both reade the Psalmes vpon the booke and speake vnto the Lord at the same instant how should it not now bee both possible and lawfull for to speake vnto God in praiers while one readeth Hée saieth I denie your Argument I say that is not sufficient to denie the Argument let vs therefore sée the reasons of the deniall Admitte that singing were a part of praier sayeth he yet dooth it not follow that all praier may bee read vpon the booke we must take this vpon your bare word at least such as will may beléeue yée I stand to affirme that one part of praier is as spirituall a worke as another thereupon I also affirme that if one part may bee read vppon the booke and no turning the worke of the spirite into an Idoll no stâ—nting the spirite no quenching the spirit no Idolatrie no hindrance but that hee which readeth may speake vnto God it may be so in any other part And let vs see what hee will bee able to disprooue this withall But hee saieth I speake like an ignorant man to say that singing is praier because they be two diuers actions and exercises of our faith The one neuer read for the other nor saide to be a parte of the other throughout the Scriptures but are plainelie distinguished As I will praye with the Spirite I will pray with vnderstanding I will sing with the spirit I will sing with vnderstanding saith Saint Paul I answer you could no where more vntimelie accuse mee of ignorance then where your owne speech in this and that which followeth next is patched vp with errors almost as thick as the patches vpon a beggars cloake And for answere I say first that Saint Paul dooth distinguish them there is great reason not onelie because the verie singing it selfe is not praier no more then reading or speaking but also that there bee manie praiers which are not song and manie Psalmes and songs which are no formes of praier nor the spéech directed to God a prayer that is no psalme is neuer called a psalme nor any reason why it should but a Psalme that is a praier is called both a Psalme and a praier The Psalme 86. is called Tephillah a praier and consisteth of sundrie petitions The Psalme 90. is so called being the praier of Moses Psalme 102. is called Tephillah leaaui the praier for the poore when hee is in perplexitie and powreth foorth his meditatioÌ„ before the Lord. The people praying for Christs Kingdome did vse to say Hosanna Blessed is he that commeth in the name of the Lord. Psal 118. The Psalme 50. and 119. with many other conta ne petitions almost in euery verse which if a man did pray or desire them earnestly singing it was no Idolatrie singing I graunt is not called praier but men might sing Psalmes to God and were commanded which contained praises and petitions but they were giuen to the Church to be song or read in y e forme of praier saith he but denieth y t this was to be done praying He not only confesseth they were to sing theÌ„ vnto God but also saith the Lord keep me froÌ„ such an error as to denie that yet eueÌ„ in this coÌ„fession falleth into as grose a matter for what can bee more absurd than that a man should vtter and speake euen vnto God that which is a prayer and yet might not pray as when out of the Psalm 118. praying for the kingdome of Christ they cried Hosanna blessed is he that commeth in the name of the Lord or when for some speciall benefite the whole Church was to sing prayse to God and had a prescript forme deliuered vnto them were they to mocke with God and not to speak prayses vnto him indeede from the heart and with chearefulnes or did God commaund them to doe two things which cannot bee done at once or wil any deny that many in singing though the singing it selfe be not praying doe giue hearty thankes to God where thanksgiuing is expressed and craue earnestly when they vtter petitions Master Greenewood doth grieuously complaine of me for doing him foule wrong in saying he denieth that the Psalmes are to be sung to God And what other thing in effect doth he vtter here when hee saith they were not to vtter the wordes of a Psalme to God praying But I willset downe his first words which are these The same may be sayde for the hundreth and second Psalme for although some haue taken it as a prayer of the Prophet when he was in affliction yet may I graunt with you to be taken in the future tense and auoyd that superstition you would fall into for if it had beene giuen vnto the Church to haue beene read as a prayer vnto God it should haue beene saide O Lord heare our prayer and let our crie come vnto thee And therefore it is manifest that
this Psalme was giuen to the Isralites in time of their captiuitie at Babylon or some other such calamitie to comfort and instruct them how to settle themselues and powre foorth their prayers before the Lord. But howe will you prooue that the people were to say ouer these wordes vnto God for wee may see the like by Habbacuc prescribing the people a forme of prayers to comfort themselues and deliuered it to be sung in the assemblies Moreouer after manie other wordes master Greenwood sayth thus And that singing of Psalmes is no part of prayer we may see by the exhortation which the Apostle vseth to the Ephesians saying Speake vnto your selues in Psalmes and Hymnes and spirituall songs And to the Collos where it is sayde Let the word of God dwel in ye plenteously in al wisdome teaching admonishing your selues in psalmes hymnes and spiritual songs And further we reade that Christ our Sauiour did giue thanks and then sing a Psalme after the institution of the Lords Supper for that singing is a reioysing our selues and instructing our selues Now let the reader iudge by comparing that which I haue written in my former booke with these words of his whether I or he be the godles man which dealeth by vnconscionable slaunders and with much euil conscience Master Greenwood denying the vse of prescript forme when wee speake vnto God and I alleadging the Psalmes demandeth how I wil prooue that the people were to say ouer those wordes vnto God And after as you see to prooue that the wordes were not to be vttered or said ouer to God praying he alleageth the sayings of Paule Speaking to your selues and instructing your selues in Psalmes and Hymnes and spirituall songs leauing out in both places the latter ende of the sentence of singing to the Lord. Now when I haue prooued that the verie wordes of some Psalmes were to be said ouer to God because the scripture is cleare in many places Sing Psalmes to God sing prayses to God c. and charged him with denying that the Psalmes are to be sung to God contrarie to such expresse commandement and blamed him for leauing out the parte of the sentence which maketh against him he crieth shame vpon me But master Greenwood it is the light of Gods word and the waight thereof which doth presse ye and cutteth downe all vngodly fantasies and not I. You confesse now because the scripture is plaine that the Psalmes were to be sung to God and yet ye did aske how I would prooue the people were to say ouer the words Then it followeth that the verie prescript forms of wordes were to be saide ouer to God by your confession which is the whole matter that I haue stoode to prooue And now chuse whether you will denie that Psalmes were to be sung to God or confesse that those verie wordes of the Psalmes and the prescript formes were to be said ouer vnto him in singing What will he say now This he will say that they were in those words to be song vnto God but not praying for he saith I must proue the Church did vse to reade the psalmes for praying I wonder how a man can speake to God the sentences which are praiers and not praying Againe I would haue any Brownist shew mee what speach wee can haue to God which is not praier if he say a man dooth speak to God in giuing him thankes and praise in acknowleging his benefites in ascribing vnto him all wisdome power glorie goodnes bountifulnes faithfulnes and mercie A man dooth speake to God when hee confesseth his sinnes when he complaineth of the iniuries and wrongs of others I confesse and I say withall that they be all of them parts of praier Why dooth a man giue thankes and praise and mention Gods benefits but to support his faith and hope that he shall receiue further and to moue the Lord to continue still good vnto him or such like Why doo we speake vnto him of his glorious power wisdome mercie and trueth but that our faith and praier dooth rest vpon those pillers Why doo we confesse our sinnes but as intreating for pardon and what doo we rehearse the vniust outrage of our aduersaries but to procure his iust defence and protection But hee demandeth what this maketh for reading praiers framed by men I answer to the same effect which I haue euer done that this is one of the poorest cauilles that may be among a thousand We reason not about the matter of praiers but about the reading for if the matter bee corrupt and naught the pronouncing or the reading cannot make it better If the matter be erronious it is no more authentick pronounced then read if it be pure and good pronounced the reading cannot hurt it or make it vnpure The reading it selfe is not vnpure when we speake to God for then should not the Psalmes haue béen song vpon the booke vnto him Who is so senceles then as not to sée this conclusion to follow to vtter a prescript forme of words in a Psalme when one speaketh to God is no sinne Therefore to followe a prescript forme of words in any godly praier when one praieth is not sinne for where shall we finde the sinne If it be in following a prescript forme it should haue béen vnlawfull to followe it in the Psalmes If it be in the matter because there bee errors in all mens writings and therefore to bee cast foorth then I say the errors and not the reading is in the fault and for which only there must be the casting forth and so we must cast foorth the praiers of the preachers To his next words I answer that it is not the repeating ouer the same godlie petitions againe euery day that maketh it the sacrifice of fooles but when men doo it of custome without faith and feruent affection for if a man with faith and zeale pray euery day the same praier to God it is acceptable The rest of his words are not worth the repeating and yet he concludeth most falsly that read praier hath no warrant in Gods word The next Argumentis this We may not in the worship of God receiue any tradition which bringerh our libertie into bondage read praier vpon commandement is a tradition that dooth bring our libertie into bondage Against this I opposed that Moses the Prophets and our Sauiour gaue prescript formes of praiers and if the very following a prescript forme imposed by commandement be so detestable a thing how are not they charged with this heinous sinne He answereth that here is a great storme and yet nothing but winde doo ye not know the wind may be so great as to blow downe the house vpon your head especially when the blast of truth commeth against your building which standeth vpon the rotten pillers of errours The counterfaite zeale of Cayphas against the trueth ought not to stay any man from being earnest for the truth But now to the matter your woonted song was
heretofore when such prescript formes were alleadged prooue that those wordes were to be saide ouer to God but now being conuinced and confessing that some Psalmes were song to God and for feare least bidding mee prooue againe that the prescript forme was followed when they spake to GOD I should againe charge ye openly to denie the singing of Psalmes to God which I haue shewed yee doe couertly ye seeke another shift and say your Minor proposition which is that I stand to disprooue speaketh of the reading for praying and not of the forme of prayer This is poore stuffe seeing we reason about prescript forme and reading the same praying I do not say that the reading it selfe is praying but I haue prooued that they went together and whether there were cōmandement to followe the prescript formes or not in the blessing for the Priestes to vse In the prayer prescribed for the people to say at the offring the first fruites and in some of the Psalmes whether it be not also lawful to say the Lords prayer praying let wise men iudge Nowe where as I saide the Brownistes doe condemne all Churches by these three arguments against read prayers Maister Greenewood at this is in no small heate as his speech doth shewe for if hee coulde dippe his words tenne times deeper in gall it appeareth hee woulde not spare I trust saith he your madnesse will appeare vnto all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue But Maister Greenewood If I haue saide the truth which is iustifiable by your owne speeches your sober minde is not to bee boasted off And if your sentence include all Churches what milke and honie doth flow from vnder your lippes Heere is much a doe this man layeth about him as if he were halfe madde but that he is blindfolde I could not escape some sounde blowes Here he hath vp the begger with his clappe dish and the Priest with his Masse booke canuesing ouer the Paternoster for their bellie Here he saith I breath out my accustomed lies slaunders and raylings calling them Brownists and Donatists here he detesteth Donatus his heresies Browne and the Brownists he saith are ours hee willeth mee to remember who is the Father of such vntruthes when I say they condemne al reformed Churches but because my conscience as hee saith did witnesse I had wrongfullie charged him and for him all true Christians I bring it in by necessarie consequence Now if the heate be any thing past heare a little what I saye shewe that I haue any way slaundred ye or rayled vpon yee in that I haue termed you Brownists and Donatists and let mee haue open shame among all men I haue affirmed that the very pith of all your matter is from Maister Brownes bookes conuince mée therein if yee can I haue now published that Brownisme and Donatisme are all one let any Brownist in the land confute me The theefe will not abide to be so called but will say I defie all theeues doth that cleare him when he liueth by theeuerie what are you the better to say I detest the heresies of Donatus and yet holde all that he helde and know not what ye say nor what the heresies of Donatus were more then doth a post shew openly that ye renounce those thinges I haue noted to bée the furies of the Donatists then yee may crie out that ye are slaundred And now for condemning al Churches will ye denie that which is concluded by necessarie consequence from your words Is that against conscience which is brought in by necessarie consequence Ye would seeme to make light of it in this respect that a multitude is not to bee followed to doo euill when ye condemne all Churches but yet it doth sting ye so neere that by no meanes ye can abide to heare of it Thus I did reason and thus I reason still without any witnesse of conscience against me You affirme prescript formes of prayer brought into the publike assemblies to bée the changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie and therefore a thing most detestable a dead letter which doth quench the spirit but all reformed Churches haue prescript forme of prayer imposed therefore yee condemne all Churches I am glad your booke may bee seene of all men that they may iudge the soundnes of that answere by which ye would cleere your selfe Ye cannot goe from your first words they be spread in the hands of so many but ye should shame your selfe Ye replie therefore againe that the true Churches might erre in this and yet remaine Churches of God This is strange that ignorance should excuse men that worship an Idoll in stead of God that take away the Christian libertie from the consciences of men and doo that which is most detestable What doo the Papists more than these or what can they bee charged withall which is worse than that which is most detestable And haue ye not set downe now in this your booke in replying vpon the second Argument that all our Ministers must leaue reading their stinted prayers or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that pray with them How are the Ministers and people of other Churches priuiledged from standing vnder Gods wrath hauing read prayers imposed leiturgies and as you terme them stinted prayers or tell me are they the Churches of God that stand vnder his wrath Now remember who is the father of lyes Well your meaning was not to condemne the Churches nor to meddle with them Why then doo ye giue such sentence of condemnation which reacheth vnto them Tel me but this is there any Brownist which is a disciple and giueth credite vnto ye in this matter that read prayer is most detestable and that such as ioyne in it stand vnder Gods wrath which yet durst ioyne himselfe or might ioyne himselfe vnto any assemblie in the world euen the most reformed Tell me either you or any other chiefe Brownist will say they may pray with any assembly where they follow a prescript forme If ye dare not say this I meane that ye would counsell men to ioyne with a Church that hath read prayer but say they must reprooue and condemne it and if it were not redressed forsake them then bee also ashamed so furiouslie to crie out vpon me which speake nothing herein that I say ye condemne all churches but that which all indifferent men must néedes sée your owne wordes and doctrine doe vpholde As for your bitter accusations vpon no shewe I leaue them and whereas ye require that if I haue any sparkle of grace I would procure that ye might decide the trueth with other Churches I answere that if ye had any sparke of sober wisdome ye could not with such condition lay that vpon me which ye knowe not howe vnable I am to performe You say you might iustly be called an Anabaptist if you shoulde reason thus Imposing of mens writings to be read for praying is an heinous
sinne therefore they that vse it are no Church Haue ye said no more but that it is an hainous sinne Haue you forgotten all your former sayings of Idolatrie bondage breaking Christian libertie most detestable standing vnder Gods wrath I hold him no Anabaptist nor Donatist which from such spéeches concludeth no true Church For I neuer heard that the true Church doth stand vnder Gods wrath The next wordes are sore Abaddon is the father of such Prophets saith Maister Greenewood because I say the Brownists maintaine such a fréedome as that will haue nothing imposed by commaundement I pray ye tell me whether you be one of those which set out the brief summe of the profession And when I had written against it I would knowe if ye were one that made the defence or approoued the same Did yee not approoue of the answers that goe vnder the name of Henrie Barrow Imposed is put for an argument by it selfe in those writings and so noted with a figure Could the very word imposed be an argument by it selfe if any imposing by commaundement bee lawfull in Gods worship If the ciuill Magistrates haue power but to reuiew the lawes of Christ and to mooue men or stirre them vp to the more diligent keeping of the same may they then impose by commaundement And as you speake here of that which is not onely receiued but also by commaundement as though there were great waight in the words by commaundement I pray ye tell me then what force ye repose in the words imposed and by commaundement when ye oppose them against Christian freedome Tell me also whether yee denie not that any Canons and constitutions made in Synods in matters variable are to be imposed by commandement If they be what is the reason that you Brownists when yee crie out against Church gouernment as it is in England speake in generall against Canons And a little after in this your booke ye denie all power of making lawes in things indifferent terming it an adding to Gods word and alleaging against it the extreame curse of God I graunt the Churches power is limitted by the word in making such lawes and so is the power of Princes There hath béen much sayd alreadie touching the Lords Praier and other prescript formes in the Scriptures but yet here come in newe reasons if I may so call them which are voide of reason Houtos is the same that the Hebrew Coh after this manner I answere that this hath béen dealt in before where ye must vnsay somewhat againe or else the words of the Scripture now written are not the words of the Lord but the like Further because Christ saith when ye pray if he willed we should say ouer y e words then should we euer when we pray say them To this I answere that respecting the rules for matters when ye pray when is as much as to say whensoeuer ye pray because we may not depart from those matters conteined in the general petitions But if we respect withall the prescript forme of words there is a double consideration to be had for in them selues they bee most excellent perfect and full and so brieflie doo containe the whole summe and substance of all thinges which we ought to craue of God as that nothing is wanting But our mind is not able so largelie or vnto such depth at one instant to spread or extend it selfe in desire as to bee mindfull of euery particular therein conteined And also we are more mooued as seuerall matters of néede doo presse vs to craue them particularlie Hereupon it doth followe that as on the one part it were agreat iniurie and hindrance that any man should binde vs when any particular néede vrgeth to begge reliefe onelie in the generall forme which includeth many things and not suffer vs to expresse the very particulars and singulars so on the other part to binde vs alwaies in such sort to the seuerall particulars that we may not at all vse the generals is very absurd and a disgrace to those most excellent petitions For by this it must needes followe that I may not say Let thy Kingdome come or forgiue vs our trespasses as we forgiue them that trespas against vs vntill the Brownists disprooue this he is fully conuict For if I may vse one petition of the generall heads when I pray I may vse anie one if any one then all The next argument which is brought is to this effect that if we be cōmaunded to say those words then should we sin in vsing any other forme for those being in y e best forme we are bound alwaies to bring the best sacrifice we haue or els we are accursed This reason I haue fully answered in that which went before for I haue shewed in what respect it is the most excellent absolute forme the best and can by no meanes without great absurditie yea wicked impietie be reiected withall what is necessarie and fit for vs. Now for conclusion let the Reader iudge whether I haue more need to leaue of as he saith my popish dreames or he his spirituall fantasies I am farre from maintaining that our Sauiour or his Apostles did stint or bynde men vnto certaine wordes which of necessitie they must vse and none other but this is the thing which the Brownistes must ioyne issue in with me whether I may not pray saying let thy kingdome come or if I may so vse the prescript forme of wordes in one petition whether I may not in any and so in all And heere let the Reader obserue that Maister Greenewood crying out for freedome complayning of a tradition that bringeth our libertie into bondage hee doth him selfe take away freedome and woulde lay a bondage vpon men and vpon the Churches For it is to lay a yoake of bondage when men will restraine that which God hath left free to bee vsed as shal be most conuenient and profitable for edification as to follow a prescript forme or to reade praying Among the Iewes in the time of the Law God tied them to the Temple and vnto certaine set howers for the Euening and Morning sacrifice but in this we are set free in the Gospell For I may lawfullie goe to the Temple to heare the word and to be partaker of the Sacraments with the assemblie and I may lawfullie frequent other places where the publike worship is The Churches may appoint the same howres for there meetings that were vnder the law if it be conuenient and they may appoint other if it shal be more fitte hee that in these shall take away the freedome which is giuen to the Churches doth lay a yoake of bondage In like case prescript forme of prayer to vse praying being an helpe to the weake and a thing sanctified of God and left free to the Church as neede shall require he that denieth that free vse doth lay a yoake of bondage And so I charge Maister Greenewood here to doe In the next place
there were three Arguments of Maister Greenewoods which I answered at once by denying the assumptions and shewing the reasons that moueth me for in déede he setteth downe some propositions and out of them affirmeth that which is false and so concludeth from thence another falsehood It is his whole manner of reasoning if I set downe this proposition God is a spirit it is most true if I will now make such an assumption as this a bodelie substance cannot worship a spirite this being most false there will followe a false conclusion which is that no man can worship God in bodie he is now therefore to proue his assumptions and before he commeth to it he crieth out stay and wonder they are blinde and make blinde Who be blinde and make blinde the Brownists This man hath some great thing in his minde which hee séeth and dooth wonder and now calleth vpon all other to stay vntill hee hath vttered it and so to wonder with him Is there anie doctrine more spirituall saieth hee any more inculcated by the holie Ghost then this accesse to God in the mediation of Christ c. I answer who dooth doubt of this You confesse I will say the propositions bee true and waightie matters which I doo in deed and thereby doo acknowledge that praier is a spirituall and Heauenlie thing farre from the power of man to performe of himselfe Now Master Greenewood confessing I doo this like as a great waue of the Sea commeth rowling and dooth in shâ—w threaten to ouerwhelme all but sodainelie falleth of it selfe So he swelling with the winde of his vanitie crieth out stay and wonder as if I should be ouer whelmed with the streame of his words and by and by falleth of himselfe confessing that I allow the propositions which in déede include the excellencie of praier and there is an end of his wonder The first assumption hee must prooue is that to reade vpon the booke when one prayeth is a quenching the spirite for this he alleageth the saying of Saint Paul Quench not the Spirite when he hath set downe this he addeth that to suppresse and leaue vnuttered the passions of our own heart by the work of the Spirite giuing vs cause of praier and in steed thereof to reade another mans writing he dooth not doubt will be founde and iudged of all that haue spirituall eyes to see a quenching of that grace I answer to this that the spéeches of the Scripture are most fit to vtter our passions by And what haue yee brought but the matter in question If wee respect such as be not able so well to vtter the spirituall eyes to sée and iudge that to bee a quenching of the Spirite are but the eyes of Brownists Therefore all his beggarlie cauils which follow and which haue been answered before are to be let passe as they come The second assumption to bee prooued is that it is presumptuous ignorance to come with a booke This is a lame sacrifice because a man dooth knowe how to doe better and doth not stil he would haue that graunted which is denied For I say the booke is to helpe men to doo the better which are in themselues dull and full of wants and without helpe should rather offer a lame sacrifice The third is for striuing in praier for which when hee hath spoken much of this striuing which is not denied for continuance and importunacie he imagineth that the whole matter is prooued for this as hee would make vs beléeue cannot bee effected vnles the Priest reade till he sweate againe with vaine repetitions I might followe with many words in these and the rest but séeing he hath confessed that the Psalmes were to bee sung vnto God let him shew how the verie reading then can bée so grieuous a thing for this the reader must consider that our question is not about the matter of prayer nor any corruption by vaine repetitions or otherwise nor about the hypocrisie and vaine babling of such as pray but of fashion but simplie of the reading when one prayeth which vntill he can prooue that diuers Psalmes either were not vttered to God as praier or that they did not reade them when they did sing he prooueth nothing but deceiueth the simple with the sight of true things which he spreadeth and from which he draweth foorth such false conclusions I leaue to the reader but to compare his answeres he maketh to the rest touching these arguments and see if they make any thing for uim and not rather against him The next Argument is that We must pray as necessitie requireth but stinted praiers cannot be as necessitie requireth Whereas I affirmed that there be things necessarie to be prayed for at all times and of all men which indéed are the most things which wée are to begge of the Lord. Of these there may bee prescript formes for all times and for other things that fall out sildome the praier is to be applied to the time and necessitie Here are large discourses and such as this Replier dooth much please himselfe in as a most spiritual man This I take to be the drift of the whole that in praying to GOD wee must come with féeling our wants that so we may pray earnestlie which I doo yéeld vnto as an vndoubted trueth He holdeth it as a great absurditie that we should want the same thing to morrow which wee doo to day or that all congregations should néed the same one day which they doo another Hee is most foolish in this and such like obiections for if I should stand to followe particulars there bee fewe things which we may not either for our selues or for our brethren at all assemblies begge of the Lord. If there be speciall necessities they are to be supplied The matter is cléere I will not spend time about it more than I haue in my former booke But whereas the Brownist doth obiect that a prescript forme doth shewe that men take vpon them to knowe mens secrets which God alone doth knowe it is most vaine and friuolous The Scriptures doo shewe that we all stand in neede of the same thinges and euermore being sicke of one disease though there may be some particular cases wherein some haue their seuerall neede And let him answer me now vnto this poynt There be fiue or sixe hundred in one flock which come together to pray if it be as you would beare vs in hand that there is such a variablenes in our needes that to day our necessitie requireth one thing to morrowe another then euery particular man and woman hath seuerall wants and is to pray for no more than they come with present feeling off how then shall the Minister frame his praier to fit them all One shall say this pertaineth not to me how shall I pray Another shall say this or that toucheth not my estate Many shal complaine that their seueral wants are not touched Tell me Ma. Greenwood or any Brownist doth
horrible things in his blinde furie doth he charge all Churches withall For first when he saith that for matters of order and circumstance there can be no other lawes made of them thā Christ hath made he seeth not the difference betweene the giuing generall rules of charitie of come liues and order which serue for edification that are to be followed in making lawes touching matters in themselues merely indifferent and the very particular lawes thēselues that are so to be made Thē if it be true which he saith the matters of order and circumstance are not variable but stand fixed as inuiolable lawes of Christ in the particulars to be obserued which is false seeing these circumstances are no part of Gods worship As Paul saith The Kingdome of God is not meate and drinke c. but as handmaids to attend vpon it and to adorne it and so are vsed and not vsed as occasion serueth I haue shewed this before in some particulars as that the assemblies are in time of peace gathered in temples and fixed places and open in time of persecution and tumult in the fields in woods and secret places which they change and at the commandement of the pastors and gouernours the wise reader may consider the like not onelie for kneeling and such like but in many other And we sée that the Apostles themselues did decree some things for the time which afterward were to bee altered when the occasion was taken away as namelie to auoide giuing offence to y e weak Iewes which stuck in the ceremonies of the lawe they made this decree Act. 15. That the gentiles should absteine from blood and from strangled We doo not now obserue this decree of the Apostles neither are we to obserue it séeing the occasion is remooued for which it was made Furthermore if there be no lawes to be made in matters of circumstance how shal the flockes knowe what to follow or to obserue where the pastors shall dissent and varie in iudgement Sall not some be rent into one part and some into another Now when hee saith this is to pleade for vnwritten verities to make the Lawe of God vnsufficient to adde to the word alleaging those Scriptures which shew how cursed a thing that is hee dooth but ignorantlie abuse those Scriptures and wickedlie seduce the simple sorte of men For those Scriptures are against the adding of humaine precepts and lawes to be kept as parts of Gods worship to binde the conscience to séeke righteousnes and the forgiuenes of sinnes or the merite of eternall life in them or against such rules of gouernement as God hath set to bee perpetuall This is against the perfection of the word against Christian libertie and in the chiefe things which concerne Gods worship against the ground and foundation of our faith and so a thing most detestable and accursed which our sauiour also and his Apostles refused iustlie to obserue with the blinde Pharisies But now where the Brownist hath his eyes so daseled with that pillar of fire which hee saieth they haue before them that he cannot perceiue that to make and constitute lawes in matters of circumstance for comelines and order according to the generall rules of the Scripture and not to binde the conscience is no adding to the word nor mixing Gods worship with mans inuentions he is much to be pittied And doubtles before this pillar of fire bee remooued which is not the heauenlie light of Gods spirite but a frantick presumption by which the diuell dooth delude men and blinde them with their swelling he shall neuer see well Some will say if these constitutions be not to binde the conscience of men why are men forced to keepe them Why should the discipline and censures of the Church driue men thereunto In déede this is that which the freedome of the Brownists can at no hand indure To answer this the reader must consider what is the binding of the conscience It is not to say simplie yee must for conscience sake doo it or yee are bounde for conscience sake to doo it for then all the humaine constitutions and lawes of princes may be saide to binde the conscience because Saint Paul willeth to obey them for conscience Rom. 13. But by binding the conscience is meant that such lawes are laid vpon the conscience to bee obserued as part of the worship of God when men are punished for not keeping them as contemning Gods worship then is the Christian libertie withstoode But when y e discipline censures of the Church doo compel men to obserue the lawes which in matters of comlines and order are made according to the rules of the Apostle they are not punished for dooing or not doing the things themselues but that by dooing that which is forbidden or refusing to doo that which is commaunded they disturb the peace bréede diuisions and offence disobey where they are commanded obedience these bee sinnes and for these men are to be punished This is where the orders be not against the word of God but fitte for edification And now to conclude about this matter all the Churches of God vnder heauen doe make such lawes such Canons and constitutions in matters of circumstance and by their discipline compell both Ministers and people to obey the same The Brownist alleageth against this not only the sentences Prouerbs 30. vers 5. 6 and Deut. 4. vers 12. 32. but also Reuela 22. vers 18. 19. Where the Lorde threatneth that he that shall adde to the words of that Prophesie he will put vpon him the Plagues written in that booke Tell me now Maister Greenewood doe ye yet condemne all Churches Ye do affirme that they which make anie lawes doe adde to the worde of God and alleage against them that God will put vpon them the plagues written in that booke which is a denouncing of the extreame wrath of God for there is the lake of fire set foorth If yee were not quite beside your selfe how could you thus hurle your dartes of extreame condemnation and strike all churches and yet when I tell yee of it crie out that I am a liing Prophet and will me to remember who is the father of vntrueths But least I may seeme to father that vpon the Churches which is farre from them I wil note somewhat out of the harmonie of confessions Section 17. The latter Heluetian confession saith Quod in Ecclesijs dispares inueniuntur ritus nemo Ecclesias existimet ex eo esse dissidentes That there are vnlike rites or ceremonies found in the Churches let no man iudge hereby that the Churches dissent And the confession of Bohemia hath Quare illi tantum ritus illaeque ceremoniae bonae seruari debent quae in populo Christiano vnicam veram fidem sincerúmque cultum Dei concordium charitatem veram atque Christianam se◠religiosam pacem aedificant Siue igitur ab episcopis siue a consilijs Ecclesiasticis aut à quibuscumque aucthoribus
desires are sundrie one mooued more in one thing another in another thing some come more fitter to pray for this and some for that It is most certaine that neither the prescipt forme nor the preacher can see into these seuerall estates of mens mindes consciences or to the desires which they are most fit and prepared to expresse neither is that so much to bee regarded seeing that which should be fittest for one part should not be so fit for another but they must euery one frame himselfe to pray for al things which the assemblie doth pray for which are necessarie to be praied for at al times and of all persons Shall any man say I am not prepared to begge these things therefore they be not fit for me Let him not be so wicked but stirre vp himselfe rather to begge them with the congregation Shall any be so foolish as to say wee knowe these things before I am not mooued with them men for the most part do but repeat them of custome Nay rather let him striue against such impietie and say the things are not any thing the lesse precious which wee craue because wee heare them often or knowe them before or that many abuse them and therefore we indeuour to begge them earnestlie with all faithful ones in the assemblie seeing they bee such as are needfull to be praied for In the rest I leaue the reader to compare his booke with my former The last Argument The prayers of such Ministers and people as stand vnder a false gouernment are not acceptable Those Ministers which stand subiect to the Bishops and their Courts are subiect to a false gouernment and to Antichrist I did referre the answere of these to the third and fourth accusation but yet I did take some exception as my booke sheweth The Brownist in replying here is in great distemper I will let all his words passe and come to the matter I alleaged out of the Epistle to the Romanes Chapt. 7. that S. Paule was held in some bondage and therefore that Ierusalem from aboue is not in this world so free but that she and all her children are in some spirituall bondage At this he did crie out of Atheisme carnal Libertinisme affirming that S. Paule neuer continued captiue vnto sinne after regeneration neither gaue place vnto euill thoughts Where I haue iustly charged him with very foule matter which now labouring to wash away he doth bemire himselfe First he crieth out of wrong in diuers things without any cause Such as do touch the question of gouernment and the blasts he bloweth that way I doo here omit because his fellowes doo make replie as he mentioneth vnto those things and I must then answere Onely I deale with him now touching the place to the Romanes He willeth if I haue any common honestie to let his former answer be seene I promise ye it will be small to your credite and honestie let whosoeuer see it seeing ye doo in shameles manner crie out of wresting and I knowe not what Against my reason out of the words of Saint Paule denie if ye haue the forehead these to bee your words And now say you that Scripture which the Apostle hath set downe in the anguish of his soule concerning the inward strife of the flesh and the spirit you shamefully peruert to your owne condemnation except you repent for Paule neuer continued captiue vnto sinne after his regeneration neither gaue place vnto euill thoughts Paule speaketh there of the vnperfectnes of his owne righteousnes which maketh the lawe deadlie vnto him I will thinke you a fleshlie Libertine if you recāt not this doctrine What Atheist would thus haue defended his owne grosse sinnes Thus farre go your wordes and now let such as haue knowledge iudge what wrong I haue done ye Let them looke vpon that which I haue published and see whether I haue wrested your words or set downe any vnsound poynt of doctrine as you would yet accuse me and doo importunatelie crie out but now your words are in the light and your answere also which ye cannot vse such shifts to excuse You lay open the disagreement betweene you and me First you cannot agree to this that the regenerate may be sayd to stand in any bondage to sinne You cannot conclude against it but bring in another saying and so draw a conclusion And that is how I also affirme that one standing in bondage to open knowne sinne may in that estate bee accepted and communicated with as the seruant of Christ by outward profession both at one instant which is as to say wee may bee to mans sight the seruant of the diuell and the seruant of Christ both at one time by outward profession So none should bee excommunicate none without the world and the Church light and darknes Christ and Belial should bee mingled together Well then I aske this question both of your selfe and of your fellowes whether there be any one of ye that can stand foorth and say I see no sinne in my selfe but so soone as I haue espied I ouercome and am not at all led by it Tell me further whether ye haue not this that ye may say there is euil alwayes in ye which you cannot be rid of and that doth holde ye fast and presse ye Do ye not leaue the good vndone and commit euill and such euil as is alwayes present in ye Doe not ye find great sinnes that ye stand vnder as not able to come out of If any Brownist shall deny he is such or in this estate he can be but a proud hypocrite If yee confesse it what doe you but confesse some bondage Let me aske ye further is there any of ye which dare stand foorth and say I am not a sinner in the sight of men I stand not holden vnder any outward sinne the Brownist must aunswere these questions for he holdeth that men can not outwardly appeare sinners and be the seruants of Christ at one instant What beastly geare is this There is sinne that appeareth in the best men at al times in gesture in words in deedes in negligence in wants yea a thousand waies who is able to indure y e trial of Gods law euen in that which outwardly doth appeare in him for an howre And will yee cast foorth all in whome there appeareth sinne that he dooth abide in The grose open sinners I confesse which contemne and giue offence are to be cast foorth but are those which abide within at any time free from open sinne couetousnesse is a foule sinne so is pride selfe loue and wrath Doe all Brownists so fully shine in brightnes before men that in none of these nor any other they can bee discerned to be sinners Doth all vertue shine foorth in them And touching that which I charged you withall looke better now vpon your owne speech If there bee any modestie in ye it will be hard for ye to deny but that I haue layde no