peece of Gods worde and traditions are an other peece and this peece must be added to that or els it is not a perfect or sufficient instruction of itselfe for Gods Church The comparison you make of ioyning S. Lukes Gospell to that of Saint Matthew or Saint Paules epistles to them both to resemble your patching of traditions to the written word of God is both odious and vnlike and without begging the wholl matter in question gaineth nothing For the adding of the writings of one Euangelist to another or of an Apostle to the Euangelistes is but the heaping of heauenlie treasure to the further inriching of the Church in all light of spirituall knowledge so the accession of the bookes of the new testament is as it were the vnfolding or laying open of the same diuine riches that was perfectlie contayned in the olde testament for the saluation of all Gods elect that liued vnder that discipline But your traditions as you maintaine them argue an insufficiencie of the holie scriptures which allso you confesse your selfe and are not a more plaine or plentifull application of the mysteries comprehended in them Therefore though you can for manners sake otherwhile forbeare odious speeches aginst the dignitie of holie scriptures yet euen that odious conclusion gathered by Gotuisus must needes follow of your doctrine concerning the insufficiencie of scriptures and the necessitie of traditions That your traditions are Gods word and of equall authoritie with the scriptures you promise to shew more largelie in the twelft article together with certaine meanes how to know and discerne the same Sed haec in dicm minitave Parmeno You haue taken a pretie pause of three yeares long since you were interrupted as you 〈◊〉 in the end by a writte de remouendo But the daie will come that shall paie for all Whether anie cause or matter hath beene ministred by you of odious speeches against the dignitie of holie scriptures Mastet Charke declareth by one example out of Hosius which with all the rest that he saith you omit to answer as trifling speech to litle purpose So whatsoeuer by anie colour of reason you can not auoid by your censorious authoritie you maie contemne and passe ouer But his conclusion seemeth worthie the answer which he maketh in these wordes To conclude it is a great iniquitie to adde traditions or your vnwritten verities to the written word of God whereunto no man maie adde because nothing is wanting from which no man maie take because nothing is superfluous But to him that addeth shall the curses written in the booke be added for euer Against this conclusiō you note in the margent great iniquitie to adde one veritie to another or to beleeue two verities together A fine ieste but a grosse begging of the wholl cause For who shal graunt that your vnwritten vereties be truth and not falsehood falselie by you termed verities vnwritten There is no veritie of matters necessarie to be knowne vnto saluation which is not written in the holie scriptures that are hable to make vs wise vnto saluation But good Lord what a sturre you keepe because M. Chatk noteth in the margent Apoc. 22. ask how this place is alledged against you c. As though that which is true of one booke yea of euery booke of the scripture maie not iustlie be verefied of the wholl bodie and boke of the the Bible Because adding to the word of god argueth imperfection in the word of god Your stale obiection of Saint Iohns Gospell written after the Reuelation is alreadie answered For al bookes of scripture that haue beene written since the fiue bookes of Moses are no addition to the word of God but a more cleere explication of the 〈◊〉 first com mitted to writing by inspiration of God Neither do they teach an other waie of saluation then Moses did but set forth the same more plainlie by demonstration by examples of Gods iustice and his mercie by threatenings by exhortations by explication of his promises by shewing the accomplishment and the manner of perfourmance of them in Christ and his Church And this they do moste absolutelie sufficiently and plentifully to the saluation of Gods people These things saith S. Iohn are written that you should beleeue that Iesus is Christ the sonne of God and that beleeuing you maie haue euerlasting life in his name Here you maie as well cauill that not onelie the Gospell of Saint Iohn or the miracles written in the same is necessarie to be beleeued vnto saluation but all the rest of the scripture also foolishlie opposing thinges that are no waie repugnant but the one including the other For the beleeuing of Saint Iohns Gospell doth not exclude but include all other bookes and partes of holie scripture which teach the same meane of saluation or any thing thereto pertaining But how holdeth this argument saie you no man maie adde to the booke of Apocalips ergo no man maie beleeue a tradition of Christ or his Apostles Maie we not as well saie ergo we maie not beleeue the actes of the Apostles No sir for we make our argument in this man ner No man maie adde to the booke of the Apocalips much lesse may anie man adde to the wholl Bible of the olde and new testament And consequentlie there are no traditions of Christ and his Apostles to be credited as needefull to saluation which are not contained in the holy scriptures Thus we alledge scriptures and thus we argue vppon them not as it pleaseth you to deseant vpon our allegations and to dissigure our arguments But it is lamentable you saie to see the 〈◊〉 dealings of these men in matters of such importance It is verie true vnderstanding you and your complices to be the men that vse such fleightes in 〈◊〉 waightie causes As for our doctrine is plaine without any seame that the scriptures are sufficient to saluation therfore al tradition besides them are 〈◊〉 to that purpose But let vs see who 〈◊〉 sleightes by your iudgement First you aske Master Charke what he 〈◊〉 by adding Who doth adde Or in what sense as though his meaning and sense of adding were not manifest as also his accusation that the I suites the Papistes do adde to the word of God their traditions a necessarie to saluation yet not expressed or contained in the word of God But if God saie you left anie doctrine by tradition vnto the Church and our ancetours haue deliuered the same vuto vs especiallie those of the 〈◊〉 Church what shall we do in this case Shall we refuse it It seemeth dangerous and I see no reason The question is not whether we should refuse anie thing that God hath left but whether God hath left anie such tradition to be beleeued vnto salua tion which is not contained in the holie scriptures But if our ancetours of the primitiue Church haue deliuered anie such tradition vnwritten as left by Christ what shall we doe you
fastidia detergeret Nihil enim fere de illis obscuritatibus eruitur quod non planissimè dictum alibi reperiatur The holie ghost hath magnifically and wholsomlie so tempered the holy scriptures that with euident places he might satisfie hunger and with more darke places might wipe awaie disdainfulnes For nothing almoste is found out of those obscurities which is not found els where most plainlie vttered It were no hard matter to heape vp manie testimonies of the auncient fathers to this purpose but that the va nitie of this answerer appeereth sufficientlie in all our bookes written against the papists in which not onely by the manifest places of the scriptures but also by most euident testimonies of the doctors of the church we confute them in the most and greatest matters of controuersie that ate betweene vs. But what saith our gallant answerer that the councels fathers and anciters of theChurch haue from time to timedeclared the true sense of the scriptures vnto vs hath none of these at any time erred in expounding the scriptures may we safely beleeue them whatsoeuer they say He wil I warrant you deny it except the Pope of Rome do alow their interpretations And therfore this flying from the only scriptures to the interpretation of Coun cels fathers ancetors of the Church is nothing els but an impudent shift to reserue vnto the Pope liberty authority to make what meaning of scripture they please thereby to giue colour to euery fansie they list to father it vpon the authority of the holie scriptures The third cause he affirmeth to be that by chalenging of onely scripture they maie deliuer themselues from all ordinan ces or doctrines left vnto vs by the first pillers of Christs Church though not expressely set down in the scripture c. In deede to deliuer our selues from the burthen of mens traditions the ordinances or doctrines of men we affirme the holie scriptures to be hable and sufficient to make vs wise vnto saluation by faith in Iesus Christ as the Apostles and principall pillers of the Church haue taught vs who haue left no such ordinances or doctrines but they be either expressely set down in the holy scriptures or by plaine and necessarie collection to be gathered out of the same For how will our aduersaries prooue that anie thing is receaued from the Apostles which hath not testimonie out of the writings of the Apostles who can be a sufficient witnes of such de liuerie seeing manie things were of olde referred to the Apostles tradition which euen our aduersaries do not admit to be Apostolical seeing the most auncient and immediate successors of the Apostles as Polyearpus Anicetus can not agree about a ceremony receaued from the Apostles namelie the celebration of Easter what certentie can there be of anie other ordinances or doctines fathered vpon the Apostles without witnes of their writings yea and some times directlie contrarie and repugnant to their writings But hereof saith our aduersarie they assume authoritie of allowing or not allowing whatsoeuer liketh or serueth their turnes for the time and hereof he bringeth example First of the number of sacraments whereof some protestants haue written diuerslie because the name of sacrament is diuerslie taken sometimes largelie for euerie holie signe sometimes strictlie for such holie signes onely as being instituted of God are seales of the dispensation of his generall grace in the new teftament perteining to euerie member of the Church somtimes for al holy mysteries or secrets c. But what doth it serue anie protestants turne whether there be more or fewer signes in number that maie be called sacraments seeing all protestants agree about the things themselues that are set forth in the scriptures to be visible signes of grace inuisible and the name it selfe Sacrament in that sense we speake of when we saie there are 2. 3. 4. or 7. sacraments is not once vsed This diuersitie therefore is but of a terme and that not vsed in scripture therefore it ariseth not of anie interpretation or peruerse vnderstanding of the scripture as our answerer would haue it seeme to be But let vs heare his example Martin Luther saith he after he had denied all testimonie of man besides himselfe he beginneth thus about the number of sacraments Principiò neganda mihisunt septem sacramenta tantúm tria pro tempore ponenda First of all I must denie seauen sacraments and appoint three for the time Marie this time lasted not long for in the same place he saith that if he would speake according to the vse of onely scripture he hath but one sacrament for vs that is baptisme In this sentence how manie lies and slaunders be packed together First he saith Martin Luther denieth all testimonie of man which is false for he alloweth all testimonie of man that agreeth with the testimonie of God expressed in the scriptures and often citeth the testimonies of the auncient fathers for confirmation of the trueth which he taught indeede he alloweth man no authoritie to institute sacraments or to make articles of faith or lawes to binde the conscience of man and he would haue all mans testimonies to be examined and iudged according to the word of God but this is not to denie all testimonie of man but to distinguish true testimonies of man from false An other slaunder is where he saith that Luther in denying all mans testimonie excepteth him selfe which is altogether vntrue For he requireth none other credit to be giuen to his owne testimonie then he alloweth to the testimonie of other Neither doth he arrogate any authoritie to him selfe which he derogateth from other men And namelie in this booke of the captiuitie of Babilon he taketh not vpon him absolutelie to teach euerie point but so farr forth as he did for the present vnderstand of them promising after greater study more diligent inquirie to intreat of diuers of them more certenly euen in this verie place of the number of the sacraments he saith he will admit three onclie for the present time intending to be further a duised whether there be fewer or more to be entituled with that name Wherein our answerer offereth him the third iniurie in translating tria pro tempore ponenda I must appoint three for the time as though Luther had taken vpon him to appoint how manie sacraments the Church should haue or would challenge power to appoint more or Jesse at his pleasure where as his wordes if the answerer did not wilfullie corrupt them by false translation do import no such thing but onelie as farr as he did presentlie see there were no more but three of those that were commonlie called sacraments of the new testament which were rightlie to be called by that name The fourth slaunder is that Luther hath but one sacrament for vs which is Baptisme if he would speake according to the vse of onelie scripture yea this is a double slaunder for neither doth
which is but a short section or Chap er doth not charge Luther with this opinion of heretikes not to be burned but the Donatists whose fansie is renewed againe in the Anabaptists and Libertines As for Luther Contra Latomum deincendiariis handleth not this controuersie at all but onelie expostulateth with the deuines of Louane which burned his bookes without examination or Conuiction of them out of the word of God Manie men haue complained and that moste iustlie of the crueltie of the Papists in burning as heretikes the true saints martyrs and members of the Church whose faith and religion they were neuer hable to conuince of heresie by the authoritie of gods word But that no blasphemer or obstinate heretike maintaining blasphemie against the expresse and manifest trueth of God is to be punished by death I am persuaded he can bring no booke or author of any accompt that so holdeth Fourthlie he addeth that Luther by onelie scripture found the sacramentaries to be heretikes D. Fulk by the same scripture findeth that both parties are good Catholikes But as Luther erred in his opinion of the sacrament so he was ouer rash in condemning those whome he calleth sacramentaries neuerthelesse seing he erred of ignorance and inconsiderate zeale he hath found mercie with God and is not to be adiudged as a blasphemous heretike For neither the error he maintained is blasphemie in it selfe neither did he hold it contrarie to his knowledge but as he was ignorantlie persuaded with zeale of trueth though deceiued with error How Doctor Fulke prooueth this not onelie by scripture but also by example of auncient fathers erring in like cases and yet not to be condemned for heretikes you maie reade in the place by this answerer quoted and in his confutation of Popish quarrels His last example is of manie things which Master Whitgift doth defend against Thomas Cartwright to be lawfull by scripture as Bishops Dcanes Archdeacons officialls holy daies and an hundreth more which in Geneua are holden to be flat conirarie to the scripture There are manie things lawfull by scripture which yet are not necessarie to be vsed The forme of external gouernment and discipline of the Church is not so expreslie set downe in holie scriptures but that euetie particulare Church hath libertie and must of necessitie appoint manie things for order decencie and gouernment which are not in expresse termes conteined in the scriptures euen as god shall giue them grace to see what is moste expedient according to the difference of times places and persons for the building vp of the Church in trueth and loue Wherefore although the Church of Geneua in the forme of outward regiment rites and discipline differing from the Church of England do not vse the same things that we do yet it followeth not that they holde them to be flat contrarie to the scripture neither is our answerer hable soundlie to prooue that he doth so boldlie asseuere To proceede he telleth vs what aduantage herctikes haue by onelie scripture they make them-selues therebie iudges of Doctors Councels histories presidentes cusiomes prescriptions yea of the bookes of scripture sense it selfe reseruing al interpretation to them-selues But this is nothing so for howsoeuerheretikes take vppon them to control al things according to their fantasie yet haue they noe aduantage by onelie scripture but therebie maie be are confounded when they come to examination tri all And as for the professors of the Gospell which acknowledge the scriprure to be sufficiente to teach all thinges needful to be knownevnto saluation although they are by god him selfe made Iudges of the spirits of al men by exacting them vnto the trial of the word of god which is the onelie certaine rule of truth yet doe they not by priuate authoritie iudge of Councells doctors fathers customs c. But by that charge which is laide vpon them to iudge cōdemne euen the Angels from heauen if they should bring anie other Gospell then that which the Apostles haue preached without al arrogancie or insolencie against the Angels Councels Doctors Fathers whatsoeuer but in giuing god the glorie to be onely true al men to be liers no Angel to be credited except they speake by the spirite of God of whose speach we haue no certaine demonstration but in the holie scriptures whatsoeuer is agreeable vnto them The discerning of the bookes of scripture of the true sense of them is also committed vnto the Church the faithful members thereof that doutful bookes be iudged by those that without doubt are indited by the holy ghost deliuered to the Church by faithfull witnesses instruments of the holy ghost to be of soueraigne and perpetual authority in the Church and so are knowne and taken of the true Church from time to time in such sorte that although the same truth maie be found in other bookes yet as Saint Augustine saith they are not of the same authoritie because there is not such certentie of trueth As for the sense and interpretation of the holie scriptures it must be taken out of the scriptures them-selues which are alwaies the best and surest interpretation of them-selues in all points necessarie to be knowne with the aide of the gift of tongues the gift of knowledge the gift of interpretation in them that haue labored in finding out the sense thereof according to the analogie of faith which is comprehended in the scriptures and that in places so plaine and euident as they neede no interpretation and therefore cannot be wrested by damnable heretikes without great impudencie and against their owne conscience for which cause Saint Paul willeth an heretike after the first second admonition to be auoided as one who though he will not acknowledge the truth yet he is condemned in his owne conscience and sinneth vnto eternall damnation Wherefore Councells Fathers Doctors customs examples are by vs admitted but not hand ouer head without distinction but such so farre forth as they be true and faithful interpreters of the scripture by matters and places plaine certenly knowne opening matters places obscure and vnknowne Which is the office of an expounder not to determine by his owne authority of anothers meaning whereof as among men euetie man is the best in terpreter of his owne so is the holy ghost of him-selfe in the scriptures by him inspired of whose meaning where they be hard to be vnderstood no man can be certaine but either by his own plaine wordes or by plaine necessary conclusion out of his plaine words Now touching the Papists whome our answerer saith to be restrained from chopping and changing affirming and denying at their pleasures because they binde them-selues to other things beside the scriptures to which they giue souereigne authoritie as to councells auncient fathers traditions of the Apostles and primatiue Church with the like the matter is farre otherwise For whatsoeuer they prate of the soueraigntie of
her not doth better Whereof we inferre that virginitie is more acceptable and meritorious before God then mariage although mariage be holie No saie our adversaries Saint Paull meaneth onelie that he doth better before men and in respect of worldlie commmodities but not before God If you aske him which of his aduersaries doe saie so he is not able to name one for in truth we neuer saide so not thinke so But that which he saith they doe infer vpon the text that virginitie is more meritorious before God the mariage we doe vtterlie denie and we saie furthet that all the Papists in the world shal neuer be able by lawfull and true arguments to infer so much vpon these wordes of the text or to iustifie this kinde of inferring virginitie is better before God ergo it is more meritorious for the antecedent which we graunt doth not prooue the conclusion which we denie Therefore when out of the circumstances of the text he prooueth that virginitie is better in respect of God as a more excellent gift of God he taketh more paines then he needeth For we confesse as much that he that ioyneth not his virgin doth better not onelie in respecte of worldlie commodities or before men but also that shee maie be holie before the Lord in bodie and spirit c. then he that ioyneth her in mariage but that he doth better in respect of merite reward in the life to come as the answerer saith it doth not follow thereof I meane for the merite As for the reward which God bestoweth of his meere mercie doth not prooue anie merite or desert of the partie rewarded For he which vseth the gift of God well by the power and strength which he hath of God shall of Gods goodnesse not misse of his reward but he cannot therebie claime reward of dutie or of merit neither doth the text alleadged by him prooue any such thing Some Eunuchs haue gelded them-selues for the kingdome of heauen therefore they haue deserued the kingdome of heauen therebie Such licentious kinde of inferring will not onelie make poperie to stand if it were lawfull but also might be able to iustifie all heresies that euer were by scripture But bring these illations or inferrings to the iudgement seate of Logicke and they will easilie appeare to be voluntarie glosles and not true expositions or necessarie collections Yet these new doctors saith our answerer doe contemne and 〈◊〉 all authoritie antiquitie wit learning sanctitie of our forefathers and of all men yea of their owne new doctors and masters when they come to be contrarie to any new deuise or later fansie of theirs Because we may not receiue euerie interpretation or opinion of euerie of the fathers he maketh this hideous outcrie against vs. And yet we are alwaies readie to shew and haue often performed the same that in the most and greatest controuersies the auncient Doctors are against them verie cleere on our side Therefore it is an impudent slaunder that we reiect or contemne all authoritie antiquitie witte c. of our forefathers as it is a ridiculous argument that he bringeth of our dissent from our late doctors and masters as he termeth them because we follow not the error of Luther about the reall presence and the vse of Images as for the number of the sacraments and bookes of the Bible we holde with Luther in his last iudgement when he was best instructed in those cases The order of seruice is free for euerie Church to vse diuerselie as maie serue best for edification The popish Churches haue diuers vses of seruice as Sarum Yorke Bangor Hereford in England they had how manie then diuers orders abroade But Caluine he saith is reiected about the head of the Church in England which is a manifest vntrueth for Caluin is euen of the same iudgement concerning the Princes authoritie in causes ouer persons Ecclesiasticall as is euident in his Institutions that we are in England onelie he misliked the terme supreme heade as offensiue though not euill as it was vnderstood of the godlie and that terme is forborne in England for the same cause and another of supreme gouernour vsed which signifyeth as much as was ment by the other when it was rightlie vnderstoode As for the gouernment of the Church in Geneua Caluine did neuer binde all other Churches to vse the same what other pointes are reiected in Beza he hath no leisure to tell vs. But that all the Churches of the Protestants as he calleth vs in Europe do agree in the chiefe and principall articles of Religion the Harmonie of their confessions latelie set forth in print doth giue ful moste sufficient testimonie Ceremonies and for me of externall gouernment were neuer in gods Church accounted necessarie to be all one in euerie particular Church And some men maie haue their priuat opinions sometime perhapes vntrue yet retaining the vnitie of faith in the chiefe grounds and foundation of Religion with them that dissent from them either iustlie or vniustlie Wherefore our answerers finall conclusion doth not followe that Protestants will haue onelie that to be taken for trueth which they last agree vpon and their wordes must be the one ie proofe thereof whereas the worlde can testifye that the holie scripture is our ground and from thence we challenge the best proofe not refusing any other lawful proofes that wil stand with the iudgement of holie scripture where it is most plaine and easie to be vnderstoode euen without anie interpretations The bookes of the scripture we receiue which the Church of God among the Iewes before Christ and the moste auncient Church of the Gentiles since Christ hath receiued and allowed the sense we take euen out of the same bookes and bring no foreine sense vnto them all writtings of men olde and new we examine according to the same praising God for such helpe as we haue by his giftes in them to vnderstand his word yet leauing to them without reproch such things as proceeded from them selues without the warrant of that worde and this haue all true Catholikes alwaies done and no heretike is able to doe albeit he woulde professe neuer so much to doe To the former slaunders our answerer will haue vs adioyne this that our aduersaries saith he notwithstanding all request sute offer or humble petition that we can make will come to no publike disputation or other indifferent and lawfull iudgement but doe persecute imprisone torment and slaughter them which offer the same Touching anie lawful request sute or humble petition made in due manner to them that haue authoritie to graunt I neuer hard of anie onelie the seditious challenge of Campian is all the request sute offer and humble petition that he is able to prooue was euer made by them for anie such matter before the publishing of this answere of his As for them that persecute imprisone torment and slaughter them which offer disputation which he calleth
their aduetsaries it is well knowne that Master Charke and the ministers of the Church are none such neither haue they anie such authoritie It remaineth then that he accounteth the Prince her councell magistrates and ministers of Iustice his aduersaries who indeede haue good cause so to be not onelie in respect of their heresyes but also in regard of their manifolde and almoste infinite practises of treason against the Prince and realme for which some of them haue suffered moste iustlie and not for offering of disputation as this traiterous heretike euerie where moste slaunderouslie doth avowe But nowe for their partes he saith they offere the best surest and easiest meanes that can be deuised or that haue bene vsed in Gods Churches for triall and they are manie in number The first is the bookes of Scripture receiued vpon the credit of the auncient Church of which we are content saith he to accept for canonicall and allowe all those and none other which antiquitie in Christendome hath agreed vpon But this is false for to omit that they receiue for canonicall such as the Church of God before Christ neuer receiued they receiue also such as the greatest and best antiquitie in Christendome receiued not as the Church in Origens time witnesse Eusebius more then the Church of Rome receiued in Saint Ieromes witnesse Ierome himselfe prologo Galeato and Ruffinus in Expossymb more then the Councell of Laodicea did receiue for canonicall as is manifest by the 59. canon The second way of trial is the expresse plaine words of Scripture wherein they must needs be farre superior for what one expresse plaine text haue they saith he in anie one point or article against vs which we doe not acknowledge liberallie as they doe and as the wordes doe lie yes we haue manie but a fewe shal serue for example God saith Exod. 20. Thou shalt not make to thy selse anie grauen image c. thou shalt not fall down to thē nor worship them Againe Matt. 4. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him onelie shalt thou serue Which are moste plaine expresse and manifest against worshipping of Images and other creatures in anie vse of Religion Christ saith drinke ye all of this they be expresse and manifest wordes against the popish sacriledge of the cuppe The 14. to the Corinthians the first Epistle is expresse and plaine against publike praiers homilies lessons in a straunge vnknowne tongue 1. Tim. 4. in expresse and plaine wordes the spirite pronunceth the forbidding of marriage and meates to be the doctrine of deuilles And Heb. 13. Mariage is honourable in all men And 1. Tim. 3. Tit. 1. a Bishop Elder or Deacon must be the husband of one wife beside a great number more But the papists saith our answerer haue infinit texts against vs which we cannot admit without glosses and fond interpretations of our owne A bolde speach as alwaies he vseth but it shall alwaies be founde that if we doe in anie text departe from the grammaticall sense there is necessarie cause why as if it be a figuratiue spcach which is tried either by circumstances of the same place or by other texts of scriptures for the most parte hath the iudgement of the most auncient writers agreing with our interpretation But the most of these examples he bringeth haue nothing in shewe that the expresle wordes of scripture are with them or against vs but by their fonde false vnreasonable collections and such as they can neuer conclude in lawful true syllogismes as for example We haue it saith he for the supremacie expresselie saide to Peter that signifieth arocke vpon this rock will I builde my Church We answere that we might followe the interpretation of the most auncient and approoued fathers that the rocke here spoken of is Christ whom Peter confessed but graunting them that they could neuer euict we confesse that the Church is builded vpon the foundation of Peter the Apostle but not vpon him alone or more principallie then vpon all the Apostles who are all rockes or stones vpon whose foundation as also vpon the foundation of the Prophets the Church of Christ is builded Neither is it possible to prooue the supremacie of the Pope out of those wordes of scripture or anie other But they haue further expresselie touching the Apostles he that is great among you let him be as the younger Luk. 22. We haue no where there is none greater then other among you Neither do we holde that none ought to be greater then other among vs but that the greatest among the ministers ought to be seruant of all the rest and that none ought to exercise Dominion ouer the Lordes inheritaunce yet the primacie of order we graunt euen among the Apostles according to which Iames was president of the Councell at Ierusalem Peter the cheife Aposlle of the circumcision Paull of the gentiles all which will not serue one whit to maintaine the popish tiranny For Paul was nothing inferiour to the highest Apostles But for the reall presence they haue expreslie This is my bodie we haue no where this is the signe of my bodie Neither doe we denie the sacrament to be the bodie of Christ neither doe we affirme that it is a bare signe But that this is a figuratiue speach we haue expreslie This cuppe is the newe Testament in my blood and as expreslie the Apostle speaking of the same sacrament the rocke was Christ which prooueth that it must be vnderstoode in a sigue and after a spirituall manner and so doe al the olde Doctors interpretit as hath beene often shewed We haue expreslie saith he The bread that I will giue you is my flesh Iohn 6. they haue nowhere It is but the signe of my flesh And we confesse as much for we neuer saide that the signe of Christs flesh was crucified for vs but his verie naturall bodie which he promiseth in that text to giue for the life of the world which by faith and the spirit of God is made the spirituall foode of all the elect children of God and without eating of which none can be saued Ioh. 6. 53. But they haue expresly A man is iustified by works and not by faith onelie Iames. 2. we haue no where a man is iustified by faith alone no nor that he is iustified by faith without workes talking of workes that followe faith First we confesse the text that a man is iustified by workes As Abraham was when he offered his sonne and as Rahab was when she receiued the spies that is a man is declared to be iust in the sight of men For Abraham was iustified before God by faith before he offered his sonne whome God did not trie to enforme himselfe but to declare vnto men by the fruites of obedience that Abraham was a iust man euen so by faith the harlot Rahab perished not with the vnbeleeuers when the receiued the spies in peace but by receiuing
you both to wil and to be hable to do for his owne good pleasure whereupon we conclude that though a man is willed to worke his owne saluation by walking in that waie which god hath appointed for them that shal be saued yet he can doe nothing by his owne strength but all that he doth is of the grace of god for by grace you are saued through faith that not of your selues it is the gift of God To be short we make not the grace of God an helper onelie but a wholl doer and bringer to passe in vs of our saluation and of all thinges tending thereto For we are not apt of our selues as of our selues to thinke anie thing belonging thereto but our aptnes is of God Nor I saith Saint Paul but the grace of God which is with me Againe we haue infinit places of scripture to prooue that a man ought not to dout of his saluatiō in respect of the truth of Gods promises although we ought to feare trem ble at Gods iudgements and although we cannot be alwaies voide of feare in respect of our own weakenes Furthermore they haue expresselie doe ye the worthie fruites of penance Luc. 3. we haue no where that faith onelie is sufficient without all satisfaction and all other workes of penance on our partes The fruites worthie of repentance we acknowledge to be necessaire to declare vnfained repentance but not for satisfaction of Gods iustice which is blasphemous against the satisfaction of Christes death But that a faith which is fruitles or voide of the workes of repentance should be sufficient to saluation or Iustification we doe vtterlie deny as a thing contrary to the scriptures Yet againe they haue expresselie that euerie man shal be saued according to his workes Apo. 20. we haue no where that men shal be iudged onelie according to their faith We confesse as the text is that euerie man shal be iudged according to his workes and so perhaps he would haue saide if the corrector had done his part neither doe we affirme that men shal be iudged onelie according to their faith for triall of their faith shal be made by their workes Once againe they haue expresselie that there remaineth aretribution stipend and paie to euery good worke in heauen Marc. 9. 1. Cor. 3. Apoc. 22. Ps. 118. we haue as he saith no where that good workes done in Christ do merite nothing In the 3. text quoted out of the new testament is all one word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth a rewarde whether it be freelie giuen or deserued by laboure To him that worketh saith Saint Paule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rewarde is not accompted according to grace but according to debt But God is debter to no man Neither is there anie merit of good workes once named in the scriptures but against the merit of good workes Christ saith epxresselie when you haue done all thinges that are commaunded vnto you saie we are vnprofitable seruants and the paie wages stipend merite or desert of an vnprofitable seruant is shewed Matt. 25. 30. Cast out the vnprofitable seruant into vtter darkenesse there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth It is therfore the grace mercie and trueth of Gods promise whereby we claime rewarde and not the merites desert or debt of our good workes To that he saieth they haue expresselie praier and sacrifice for the dead in the second of the Maccaebees We answer that booke of Macabes to be no holie Scripture out of which he might haue expresselie a man commended for killing himselfe Whether Angels present good workes and almesdeedes before God and whether Saintes departed do praie for them that are aliue which he gathereth out of the Apocriphal bookes of Tobie and the Maccabes we make no question as of matters not reuealed in the canonicall scriptures But if they were graunted to be so yet it followeth not that men aliue must or may praie to Angels or Saintes departed Last of all out of the canonicall scripture he saieth they haue expresselie that the affliction which Daniell vsed vpon his bodie was acceptable in the sight of God Dan. 10. and we haue no where that such voluntarie corporall afflictions are in vaine But which of vs saith that such voluntarie corporall affliction as Daniell vsed and to such end as he did vse them are in vaine No man verilie You see therefore that while he boasteth of expresse words of scripture against vs he is driuen either to glose vpon the text or to faine some opinion vnto vs which we holde not at all and that all his bragges are but winde and wordes without matter as of one that-fcareth no shame because his heade is hidden The third waie of triall is necessarie collections made and inferred vpon the scriptures which we are willing to acknowledge and admitte to be of as great authoritie as the expresse words of the scripture But to discerne what is necessarie collection and what is not necessarie collection when there is no expresse wordes of scripture there is no certaine waie but the iudgement of Logicke for that onelie is necessarie collection which out of expresse words of scripture or articles of faith or other groundes confessed to be necessarilie gathered out of the holie scripture may be rightly concluded in a true and lawfull syllogisme whatsoeuer cannot be so concluded is no necessarie collection But our answerer saith we must referre our selues to the auncient primitiue Church for this meaning and his reason is For it is like they knew it best for that they liued nearer to the writers thereof then we doe who could well declare vnto them what was the meaning of the same we doe willinglie yeald to consult with the auncient primitiue Church to be holpen with their collections but to admit all their collections without examining them were to admit many errors that euen the Papists doe condemne for errors and which are reprooued by the scriptures them-selues Let one example serue in stead of manie S. Ierome collecteth out of this scripture It is good not to touch a woman that therefore it is euill to touch a woman Euerie man doth see that this is an vnnecessary collection and so are many other in the auncient fathers writings Wherefore we must vse the gift of knowledge of right gathering and concluding which God hath giuen not to be vnprofitable vnto his Church but to be both beneficiall and necessarie Againe marke the feeble reason vpon which our answerer groundeth his saying It is like they knew it best he cannot say it is necessarie that they knew it best then how prooueth he that it is like because they liued neerer to the writers then we doe who could well declare the meaning vnto them In deede if we had the writings of them that liued so neere vnto the Apostles that they might heare their meaning of their owne mouthes it were some likeliehood and yet no necessarie proofe
doth not he ouerthrow of all Christian commmon wealthes Luthers short answere to this is Hoc non de ciuilibus legibus sed de Ecclesiasticis dixi est sententi a Pauli Coll. 2. This I speake not of ciuill lawes but of Ecclesiasticall lawes and it is the sentence of Saint Paul Coll. 2. What foundation now doth he ouerthrow or teach of any Christian common wealth when he speaketh of the freedome of conscience from all constitutions of men These be the great monsters of impiety which cut the sinewes of al vertue do open the high way to all dissolution Wil you neuer be ashamed to slaunder their doctrine which you are not hable to confute But now for the bodelie and sensible conference of Luther with the deuill you wonder with what face Master Charke can denie it we wonder with what mouth you can affirme it That the Tygurines giue testimonie of it is a lie as I haue shewed before And the wholl discourse of Luthers wordes shall make manifest that his confession is onelie of a spirituall fight in minde no bodelie conference as Master Charke answered at the first His wordes in his booke de missa priuata vnctione sacerdotum are these Sed forsitan agnoscatis quà m firmis nitatur columnis vestra causa si in horam incidatis tentationum Eg o coram vobis reuerendis sanctis patribus confessionem faciam date mihi absolutionem bonam quae vobis opto quà m minimum noceat Contigit me semel sub mediam noctem subitò expergefieri Ibi Satan mecum caepit eiusmodi disputationem Audi inquit Luthere doctor per docte nostietiam te quindecim annis celebrasse missas priuatas quotidie Quià si tales missae horrenda essent idololatria c But peraduenture you may acknowledge vpon how sure pillers your cause leaneth if you fall into the howre of tentation I will make my confession before you reuerend holy fathers giue me good absolutition which I wish may hurt you least It happened that once I waked sodainlie about midnight There Satan began this disputation with me Hearken saith he thou verie wel learned Doctor Luther c. thou knowest also that thou hast saide the priuate Masse by the space of 15. yeares almost euerie daie what if such priuate Masses were horrible idolatrie c These words are manifest that Luther speaketh of a spirituall temptation such as euen good men are subiect vnto in which Sathan obiecteth vnto the conscience of men such things wherein they haue offended God moste greeuouslie The atguments that the deuill layeth against him are not so much against the Masse as against Luthers sinne to bring him in dispaire for saying masse being a sinfull man as appeereth by these wordes which he attributeth to the deuill Prome vbi scriptum est quód homo impius incredulus possit assistere altari Christi 〈◊〉 ac conficere infide Ecclesiae vbi iussit ac praecepit hoc deus Bring forth where it is written that an vngodly man an vnbeeleeuer may stand at the altar of Christ and consecrate and make the sacrament in the faith of the Church where hath God bidden or commaunded this For Luther had defended him-selfe and sought to quiet his conscience because he was an annointed priest because he celebrated in the faith of the Church although he was vnworthie in respect of the weakenes of his owne faith the multitude of his sinnes But this you clippe as your note booke serued you which was not of your owne gleaning Agè prome vbi scriptum est vbiiussit aut praecepit hoc Deus Goe to now shew me where the masse is written in scripture where hath God commaunded it and scoffe at the Protestants fashion of disputation and conclude that Luther not beeing able to answere finallie yelded to banish the masse vpon the deuills appointment which is a tale of a tubbe for there is no such conclusion but that Luther by faith in the merites of Christ ouercame this temptation For after his conflict described thus he proceedeth Hîc respondebunt mihi sanctissimi patres hîc ride bunt dicent tune es doctor ille celebris non nosti respondere Diabolo An ignoras Diabolis esse mendacem papè vestro merito vobis gratias ingentes ago pro tam suaui consolatione in re tanta Has tres voculas Diabolus est mendax ignorassem ego 〈◊〉 nisi monuissetis vos eximij theologotati Si papista essem omnium tentationum ruà is quem securum 〈◊〉 Satan negligeres vt ipsos negligit indulgentes suis cupiditatibus c. etiam talis gigas essem contra absentem hostem alacer fortis Sed si vobis sustinendi essentictus Diaboli audiendae disputationes non diu essetis cantilenam de Ecclesia veteri recepto more cantaturi equidem satis video in Dauid reliquis Prophetis qu à m grauiter luctentur ingemiscunt in his certaminibus similibus contra diabolum horribilem impetum eius Et Christus ipse quamuis sine peccato propter nos in quantis lachrimis in quibus angustiis agonizauit in his agonibus contra satanam Vrget enim in immensum corda nec 〈◊〉 niss repulsus verbo dei Et ego planè persuasus sum Emser um Oecolampadium similes his ictibus horribilib quassatio nib subitò extinctos esse Nec n. humanum cor horrer dum hunc ineffabilem impetum nisi deus illi adsit perferre potest Satan enim in 〈◊〉 oculi repente totam mentem terr oribus ac te nebris adobruit si nihil quà m hominem inermem verbo no instructum inuenit quasi digitulo totum 〈◊〉 Verum qui dem hoc est quód mendax sit sed eius mendacia non sunt simplicis artificis sed longè callidiora instructiora ad fallendum quà m humanus captus assequi possit Ipse sic adoritur vt apprehendat aliquam solidam veritatem quae negarinon possit atque eam adeo callidè versutè vrget acuit adeo speciose fucat suum mendacium vt fallat velcautissimos c. vtî cogitatio illa quae Iudae cor percussit vera Tradidi sanguinem iustum hoc Iudasnegare non poteratised hoc erat mendacium ergo est desperandum de gratia Dei Et tamen diabolus hoc mendacium hanc cogitationem tam violenter vrsit vt Iudas eam vincere non possit sed desperaret Proinde bone frater domine papista non mentitur Satan quando accusat aut vrget magnitudinem peccati ibi enim habet duos inconuincibiles graues testes legem dei nostram propriam conscientiam Non possum negare quòdreus summortis damnationis c. Sed ibi mentitur Satan quando vltrà vrget vt desperem de gratia Sicut Cain dicebat maius est peccatum meum c. Et ibi tum opus est in
the Lordes daie Here you cauill that there is no mention of Saturdaie or sondaie much lesse of celebration of either and least of all of the changeing of the Sabbath into an other daie But if it please your Censurship are you ignorant what day of the weeke is called dies Dominicus the Lordsday whether saturdaie or sondaie if it be sondaie as al professors of Christes name confesse here is as much mention thereof as is needfull for the daie into which the change is made Or if that be not sufficient you maie haue further Act. 20. 7. 1. Cor. 16. 2. And whie is the first of the Sabbath called the Lordes daie but in respect of the celebration there of in honour of the redemption of the world by Christ For otherwise all daies of the weeke are the Lordes daies in respect of their creation Thirdlie seeing the Lordes daie was one daie in the weeke vsed for the assemblie of the Church for their spirituall exercises of Religion it is certaine that the change of the Iewish Sabbath was made into that daie except you would be so waywatd to saie there were two daies in euerie weeke appointed by God to be celebrated whereas the lawe of God requireth but one and giueth libertie of bodelie exercise in sixe daies So that the change of the Sabbath daie is sufficientlie prooued out of the Scripture into the Lordes daie The sixt point is about foure Gospells and the Epistle to the Romanes which Master Charke saith to be prooued out of the scripture but yet he quoteth no place of scripture where onelie he saith the inscription expresseth the names of the writers But what a mocker is this you saie Are the bare names of the Apostles sufficient to prooue that they were written by them who can prooue by scripture that these names are not counterfet as in the Epistle to the Laodiceans in the Gospells of Bartholomew and Thomas c. But abide you sir your question hath two branches the one that the 4. Go spells are true Gospells the other that the epistle to the Romanes was written by Saint Paul and not that to the Laodiceans To the former it is answered that they are prooued by other vndoubted bookes of the scripture both of the olde testament and the new secing they declare that to be fullfilled of Christ which was spoken in the lawe in the Prophetes and in the Psalmes To the other it is answered that admitting the Epistle to the Romanes to be scripture the inscription of his name is sufficient to prooue that it was written by Saint Paull And so of therest Although the name of the writer is not materiall vnto saluation when the booke is receiued to be Canonicall as diuers bookes of scripture are receiued whose writer is vnknowne That Epistle which is called to the Laodicians is not receiued and therefore the inscription is vnsufficient as the Gospelles of Bartholomew and Thomas and such like which are knowne to be countefet by the dissent they haue from the other canonicall scriptures Whereas you require one place of Scripture to prooue all the foure Gospelles to be canonicall you declare your wrangling and wayward spirit But name you anie one point of Doctrine writen in anie of those foure Gospells and the same shall be aduouched by other textes of scripture and so maie eucrie point conteined in them if neede were But you affirme that Origen saith he reiecteth the Gospell of Saint Thomas onelie for that the tradition of the Church receiued it not Which is false He saith he hath read the Gospell after Thomas after Mathias and manie other Sed in his omnibus nihil aliud probamus niss quod Ecclesia idest quatuor tantùm euangelia recipienda But in all these we allowe nothing els but that which the Church alloweth that is that onelie foure Gospells are to be receiued In these wordes he affirmeth that he approoueth the iudgment of the Church he saith not that the iudgement or traditions of the Church was the onelie cause whie he reiected those Gospells for he said before they were receiued of heretikes and wherefore but in maintenance of their heresie which is contrarie to the holie scriptures That all counterfet Go spells were reiected by the Church it is confessed but the Church had this iudgement of discretion confirmed by the canonical scriptures against which Epiphanius saith nothing But when Faustus the Manichie denied the Gospell of Saint Mathew saie you saith not S. Augustine Mathaei Euangelium probatum aduersus Faustum Manichaeum per traditionem The Gospell of Mathew was alleged against Faustus the Manichie by tradition August lib. 28. Cont. Faust. c. 2. If you aske me I saie no he hath no such wordes Yet doth he auouch the Gospell of Saint Mathew in that Chapter by testimonie of the Church from the Apostles by continuall succession euen vnto his time against the Maniches but in far other words then you haue set downe in steed of Saint Augustines wordes by which the reader maie once against perceiue how impudentlie and ignorantlie you ailedge whatsoeuer the note booke which was neuer of your own gatheriug because you vnderstood it not did minister vnto you For these are the wordes of the collector of your notes not of S. Augustine Maie not the papists haue great ioie of such a Cenfure defender Yet you triumph like a Iustie champion and aske what can be more euident then all this to prooue our opinion of the necessitie of tradition to confound the fonde madnes of this poore Minister Alas poore defender what waightie euidencethou hast brought to prooue the necessity of tradition which prooueth thee to be a blind beggerlie yet a bolde brocher of other mens notes which thou vnderstandest not thy selfe The seuenth doctrine which is required to be prooued out of the scripture is that God the father begat his sonne onelie by vnderstanding him-selfe Here Master Charke in steede of these darke wordes out of Thomas how the father begat the sonne wisheth cleare and perfect wordes in so high a mysterie which you saie are plaine and vsuall to those which haue studied any thing in diuinitie As though there were no diuinitie in the holie scriptures and so many of the auncient fathers which haue neither this question nor these wordes but that al diuinity were included in the brest of Thomas Aquinas and such doctors as he was That he quoteth a place or two of the scripture to prooue that Christ was the onelie begotten sonne of God you make smal account of seeing the question is of the māner how this generation maybe which the Church de fendeth against the aduersaries And here you insult against M. chark as ignorant in those high points of diuinitie whereas Catholiks know what the Church hath determined herein against heretikes and infidels as though either of both cared for the Churches determination if the one were not vanquished by scripture the other by right reason
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are able to make thee wise you harpe onelie vpon the word of instructing which the vulgar interpreter vseth not sufficient to answere the greeke verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and yet if it be rightlie vnderstood as perhappes he meant it signifieth to furnish and not to teach properlie so the sense might be that the scripture is able to furnish thee with knowledge to saluation and that 〈◊〉 a sufficiencie Now to your pelting cauilles You aske if the Scriptures which can shew Timothie the waie to saluation and bring him also to it if he will follow them be sufficient for the wholl Church so that all Doctrine by tradition is superfluous I answere yea For there is but one waie to saluation for all the Church But you obiect that euerie Epistle of Saint Paull enstructeth a man to saluation yet it not sufficient for the wholl Church I answere that euerie Epistle of Saint Paull is not sufficient to instruct a man to saluation or to make him wise vnto saluation But that which Saint Paull spaketh is of the wholl scripture not of euery epistle For you might as well obiect that euery chapter and verse instructeth a man toward saluation rather then to saluation but not sufficientlie yet the wholl is able to make a man wise vnto saluation Your second obiection is that the Apostle speaketh principallie of the olde Testament and will Master Charke saie that the olde Testament is sufficient to Christian men for their saluation without anie other writt Yea I warrant you for there is no Doctrine in the new but it was taught in the olde Saint Paull affirmeth that he said nothing but that which the Prophetes and Moses had spoken of thinges to be performed The new Testament hath no other Doctrine then the olde onelie it testifieth the performance of those thinges in Christ which the olde Testament foreshewed to be performed Againe because you grate so much vpon the exclusion of other writt Saint Paull addeth by faith in Iesus Christ which containeth all that is written in the new Testament concerning the storie of performancet and seales of this faith And if the olde were sufficient how much more is the olde the new together a rich aboundant Doctrine The 〈◊〉 that you make against his translation of the wholl Scripture which you would referre to euerie Scripture is answered before the translation must be according to the circumstance of the place Euerie Scripture which is euerie seuerall booke or euerie seuerall Chapter or euerie seuerall verse is not able to make the man of God perfect and perfectlie prepared to euerie good worke but the wholl is therefore the translation must be the whole scriptures and not euerie scripture But now to your tow reasons In the first you saie that Saint Paull could not meane to Timothie of all the scriptures together which we now vse for that all was not then written To this you confesse that he answereth there was inough written then for the susficient saluation of men of that time and therest is not superfluous But this you saie is from the purpose Yea is how so I praie you you answere it was sufficient with the supplie by worde of 〈◊〉 vnwritten but that is contrarie to the purpose for Master Charke telleth you that from the time that any 〈◊〉 was written that scripture contanied sufficient 〈◊〉 to saluation without anie supply of anie other Doctrine that was not in that Scripture comprehended although preaching and other meanes were necessarie to reach men which is beside the purpose Before the scripture was written the same doctrine in substance was deliuered by reuelation that afterwarde was written The continuance thereof was not onelie by bare tradition but also in euerie age renewed by reuelation Againe the age of men was lo long that there remained alwaies faithfull and ceratine witnesses of the doctrine aliue so that it could not be corrúpted but it was easie by those witnesses to be refuted But when the age of man was drawne into the streights of 70. yeares or litle more as Moses sheweth the Doctrine of the Church was committed to writing euen as much at the first as was sufficient for the instruction of the people vnto saluation without anie supplie of traditions The 〈◊〉 of the Prophetes and Apostles writinges is a more full and plentifull declaration of thesame Doctrine of saluation not anie addition of anie new Doctrine or waie to saluation Your second reason is that 〈◊〉 partes of scripture be wanting now which were in Saint Pauls time But that you are not able to prooue For although there is mention in the olde testament of diuerse bookes written by Prophets which are not now extant yet it followeth not that those were extant in Saint Pauls time And if any were yet were they but explications and interpretations of the bookes of Moses which are extant euerie syllable and pricke and shall be to the ende of the world But Epiphanius affirmeth that all thinges cannot be taken from the scripture wherefore the Aposties 〈◊〉 somethings in writing and somethings in tradition To this I answere first that Saint Paul is greater then Epiphanius Secondlie that Epiphanius saith not that anie thing necessarie to saluation cannot be taken out of the scripture For he speaketh onelie of this opinion that it is sinne to marrie after virginitie decreed which neuertheles maie be taken out of the scripture if the vow were aduisedlie taken and no necessitie of incontinencie requiring mariage But of tradition we shall haue further to consider in the next section The thirteenth section intituled Of teaching traditions besides the scripture Art 5. GOtuisus reporteth the Iesuits to saic that the want of holie scriptures muste be supplied by peecing it out by traditions Cens. f. 220. Here you repeat your olde friuolous quarrel that the Iesuites haue no such vnreuerent words Master Chark chargeth you out of Hosius with a farre worseisaying that if traditions be reiected the verie Gospell it selfe seemeth to be reiected For what els are traditions then a certaine liuing Gospell But thereto you answere not one worde and the meaning of those words reported by Gotuisus you mainteine egerlie thorouhout this section as you did in parte in the 12. section that the scriptures are not sufficient and that there must be traditions receiued beside the scripture To what ende but to supplie the want and insufficiencie of the holie scriptures Nay saie you Though both parts of Gods worde that is both written and vnwritten be necessarie vnto Gods Church yet both of them do stand in their full perfection assigned them by God neither is the one a maime or impeachment to the other You meane they are as perfect as God made them not that the written word is sufficient to teach all trueth vnto the perfection of the man of God And so for all your vaine compasse of wordes the sense is all one The scripture is but a part or a
necessarie to saluation not expressed in so manie wordes and syllables yet in full sense contained and to be plainlie concluded out of the holie scriptures and these we receiue to be of as great credit as anie thing that is expresselie contained in the scriptures The other kinde of traditions was rites and cerimonies which are not necessary to saluation but are in the Churches power to alter as it maie stand best with edification Among which S. Basill rehearseth some that long since are abolished as the rite of standing in praier one the Lords daie and betweene Easter and Whitsontid which of it selfe is a thing indifferent as also that manner of glorifying in which they said with the holy ghost whereas al the Church long since hath said neither in the holie Ghost nor with the holie Ghost but to the holie Ghost To beleeue that the holie Ghost is to be glorified equallie with the Father and the sonne it is necessarie to saluation but in what forme of wordes that shal be song in the Church it is indifferent and the later Church hath vsed her libertie herein to alter that forme which Saint Basill saith was deliuered by the Apostles themselues without writing By this I hope it is manifest what kinde of traditions are of equall force or authoritie with the scripture euen they which haue their ground in the scriptures and none other For as the same Basill affirmeth Euerie word or deede ought to be confirmed by testimonie of the holie Scriptures Againe For if all that is not of faith is sinne as the Apostle saith and faith is of hearing and hearing by the word of God whatsoeuer is beside the holie Scripture being not of faith is sinne Thus Basill whatsoeuer he speaketh of vnwritten traditions he meaneth not against the insufficiencie of the holie scriptures except you will saie he is contrarie to him-selfe in manie places beside these that I haue noted Tr. de vera piafide Epist. 80. in Reg. Breu. Inter. 1. 65. 68. de ornatu Monachi Your next testimonie is out of Eusebius lib. 1. Eu. Demonst. cap. 8. whole wordes you mangle after your manner leauing out at your pleasure more then you rehearse Eusebius hauing shewed the excellencie of Christ aboue Moses declareth also that there are two manners ofliuing in Christianitie the one of them that are strong and perfect the other of them that are subiect to manie infirmites and that whereas Moses did write in tables without life Christ hath written the perfect preceptes of the new Testament in liuing mindes his disciples following their Masters minde considering what Doctrine is meete for both sortes haue committed the one to writing as that which is necessarie to be kept of all the other they deliuered without writing to those that were able to receiue it wich haue excelled the common manner of men in knowledge in strength in abstinence c. And this is the meaning of Eusebius in that place not of anie traditions necessarie to saluation of euerie man which are not taught in the holy scriptures but of certaine precepts tending to perfection not enioyned to all but written in the heartes of some The third man is Epiphanius who you saie is more earnest then Eusebius writing against certaine heretikes called Apostolici which denied traditions as our Protestantes do Which is but a tale for they were more like to Popish monkes and friers then Protestantes For they professed to abstaine from marryage to poslesse nothing and such other superstitions they obserued But what saith Epiphanius for traditions He saith that we must vse tradition For all thinges can not be taken out of the scripture wherefore the holie Apostles deliuered somethings in the scriptures and something in tradition Mine answer to Epiphanius is the same that it was to Basilius Namelie that such things as were not expressed in plaine wordes in the scripture were approoued by tradition being neuertheles such thinges as were to be concluded necessarilie out of the scripture As in the question for which he alledgeth tradition it is manifest Tradiderunt c. the holie Apostles of God saith he haue deliuered vnto vs that it is sinne after virginitie decreed to be turned vnto marriage This the Papistes doubt not but that they are hable to prooue out of the scripture except where the Pope dispenseth And we acknowledge that where the vow was made a duisedly to a Godlie purpose and abilitie in the partie to performe it that it is sinne to breake it neither can the Pope dispense with it In the other place where he rehearseth manie examples of traditions he speaketh of rites and ceremonies as is before declared wherof manie are not obserued in the Popish Church neither is there anie of them necessarie to saluation But Epiphanius you saie prooueth it out of scripture 1. Cor. 11. 14. 15. vhere Saint Paulsaith as I deliuered vnto you And againe so I teach and so I haue deliuered vnto the Churches and If you holde fast except you haue beleeued in vaine To the first I answer that it prooueth no traditions necessarie to saluation which are not contained in the scriptures as is more manifest by the second and third text for where Saint Paul saith so I teach in all the Churches of God 1. Cor. 14. 33. he saith immediatelie before that God is not the God of sedition but of peace 1. Cor. 15. 1. 2. 3. the Apostle speaketh manifestlie of the doctrine of the resurrection wherof he him-selfe in that place writeth plentifullie and in manie other places of scripture the same article is taught moste expresselie You see therefore how substantiallie Epiphanius prooueth tradition vnwritten out of the scripture to be necessarie to saluation which is our question But with Epiphanius saie you ioyneth fullie and earnestlie Saint Chrysostome writing vpon these wordes of Saint Paul to the purpose Stand fast and holde traditions out of which cleere wordes Saint Chrysostome maketh this illation Hinc patet c. Hereof it is euident that the Apostles deliuered not all by epistle but manie thinges also without writing and those are as worthie credit as these Therefore we think the tradition of the Church to be worthie of credit it is a tradition seeke no more The sense of these wordes is that the Apostles in their preaching did expresse manie things more perticularly then in their epistles not that they preached anie thing necessarie to saluation but that the same was contained either in their epistles or in other bookes of the holie scripture And so I saie of the tradition of the Church which is a doctrine contained in the scriptures though not expressed in the same or in so manie wordes as the three persons and one God in trinitie and trinitie in vnitie to be worshipped c. is of equall credit with that which is expressed in the scriptures because the ground of our faith standeth not vppon the sound of wordes but vppon
of the canonicall scripture which was receiued by Christ and his Apostles and the primitiue Church long after them But the Papists adde of their owne authoritie to the holie canon and therefore as much are they subiect to gods curse as if they did take away Neither doth Luther discredit or deface the whol epistle of Saint Iames as you saie although in comparison of some other bookes of scripture by a similitude he maketh it farre inferior to them What Doctor Fulke and Master Whitaker haue written the one of the booke of Maccaebees the other of Tobie they haue sufficientlie maintained in their replies whereunto I remit the reader and for Master Charkes reuiling of Iudith to the reporte of the disputation in which your impudent slaunder is confuted Where you conclude that no man in the world euer spake more reuerentlie of holie scripture then Iesuites do you ouer reach very much as you do very often They which teach that the holyscripture is sufficient to make vs wise vnto saluation speake more reuerently then the Iesuits whichdeny the sufficiency of the scripture for the instru ction of the Church Last of al the Censure ridiculously charged M. Charke with fraudulent translation of this worde Immaculata when he alledgeth this text psal 19. as oppo sit to your nose of waxe The law of the Lord is perfect out of the original tongue the best translations from which the greek in sense dessenteth not not out of the olde latine translation Now you trifle to no purpose about the Hebrew Greeke Latine termes which to those that are but me anelie learned are well enough knowne what they signifie And first if you should graunt al that M. Chark said you thinke he had gained nothing For you also confes that the law of the Lord is perfect but not in that sense wherein M. Chark vsech it to wit that because the law of the Lord is perfect therefore the scripture cannot be wrested And afterward when you haue tolde vs that these wordes vnde filed irreprehensible and perfect which answer the latine greeke and Hebrue wordes 〈◊〉 not much in sense for whatsoeuer is irreprehensible and vnspotted may also be called perfect you conclude that this doth not prooue the scriptures to be perfect in sense in such sort as it maie not be wrested or peruerted You say true but it is false that Master Chark maketh anie such illation as you charge him For thus he inferreth the lawe of God is perfect ergo it cannot be wrested as a nose of wax or as his owne wordes are the scripture is perfect and manteineth her perfection against all corruptions as a right line sheweth it selfe bewraieth that which is crooked The lawe of a wise man as hath beene said before may be so perfect as it cannot be wrested like a nose of waxe into anie sense that the wrester wil imagine but that his vaine cauillation shall be odious and ridiculous to al men Much rather is the lawe of God so perfect as though all the deuilles in hell should breake their braines to wrest and peruertit yet can they neuer wrest it like a nose of wax to euerie side or shape but that the perfect sense of the scripture remaineth ful constant and manifest to them that haue the spirit of God yea euen to them that will iudge but indifferentlie according to right reason By the waie you charge Master Charke with railing and inueighing against your olde translation and with running he careth not whether forging he careth not what and reprehending he careth not whome yet in all that discourse he hath no more wordes of it but these your olde translation doth goe alone In which wordes what rayling running forging reprehending inueihing may be conteined let ihe wiser sort iudge and fooles learne to be wiser But where he saith that the best translations differ from the olde translation you aske what best or better or other good latine translation hath he then the olde As though none might be good but your olde translation I perceaue you would not acknowledge any good of them that were set forth by Munster Leo Iude or anie other professed protestant yet what saie you to the translation of Vatablus a famous and learned reader of Paris How dare you condemne the translation of Pagnine of the olde testament and Erasmus of the new testament as naught which the Pope allowed as good Finallie what exceptions can you take to the translation of Isidorus Clarius censured and approoued by the deputies of the Councell of Trent maie none of these be good better or best but that your olde translation hath the prerogatiue in goodnes in all degrees that it leaueth all other behinde it as nought O waightie censure of a wise Papist But let vs see wherein the excellencie of the olde translation doth consist as you suppose First you saie it was in vse in Gods Church aboue 13. hundred yeares past as maie be seene by the citations of the fathers which liued then But euen those verie citations doe prooue the contrarie at the least that it was not in generall vse in the latine Church Saint Augustine in the place by you quoted for the bowe of heretikes where your translation hath in obscuro did reade in obscura luna and standeth much vpon exposition of the darke moone Yea throughout the wholl Psalter whosoeuer wil compare the text which Saint Augustine vsed with your olde translation shall finde great difference betweene them But this your olde translation you tell vs was afterward oueruewed and corrected by Saint Ierome we know verie well that Saint Ierome did oueruew and correct a certaine auncient translation of the septuaginta that was vfed in his time But how are you hable to prooue that this your vulgar translation is the same either corrected or vncorrected For it appeareth by the citations of diuerse of the latine Church which liued after Saint Ierome that they vsed an other text then this translation euen vntill the daies of Bernard When you saie that this your olde translati on was highlie commended by Saint Augustine you make such a shameles 〈◊〉 as you obiect without shame to M. Charke when he saith that the Septuaginta agree with the hebrue in signification of the word perfecte for they saie irreprehensible which must needes be perfect but so is not your latine 〈◊〉 vnspotted or vndefiled which you your selfe in your censure do egerlie contend to be differing from perfection You name the translation of Erasmus and Luther of which the one translated onelie the new testament which Leo. 10. and Clemens 7. did both allow the other translated not the Bible at all in latine except perhappes some partes vpon which he wrote commentaries Here your Printer will make vs beleeue that you were remooued with a writ de remouendo so as you could proceede no further but now there is a writ de renouando sued against you if you
Such lenitie so lightlie regarded nay so tragically inueighed against as most barbarus cruelty deserueth at the hands of God and man more sharp and yet but iuste entertainment You exclude vs say you from speach conference writing printing disputing or any other due trial of our cause Stil you would haue your cause to be religion when it is high treason And as for triall due for treason is neuer denied you before you be condemned for it As for speach conference writing printing disputing for trial of the cause of religion when you will permit to be free in places of popish regiment you may expostulate with vs for not allowing you the same in this Christian state of gouernment But what extremitie soeuer we vse we are sure say yow allwaies to be answered by one meanes or an other It may be as you saie but you tell vs not when For if you speake of answering our bookes you scarse giue one for tenne Neither do you so disquiet vs by your pretended claime as you mainely boast but we might sleepe on both sides if we had none other busines then to confute your popish treatises And if you had no greater hope in treasonable practises as in your rebellions both in England and Ireland and in your Popes bandes and banners your Saunders your Feltons your Someruils your Parries and such other execrable traitors and treasons then you haue confidence in writing or reasoning you would not looke to see the rooting out of our faith religion which you terme heresie as you do vainly prognosticat and prophecie But our credit you thinke is greatly crushed in our owne conceiptes seing we flie openly and without shame all kinde of quiet triall what soeuer and with furie onely moue the magistrate to violence against you In deed you know your owne cause best where you haue the magistrate obedient at your beck how vnwilling you are to haue any other quiet conference for trial but imprisonment torment fire and fagot And if the same measure were paied you home againe into your lapps it were no more but good iustice and such as you shall surely finde one day according to the prophecy of the holy ghost Rewarde her euen as she hath rewarded you c. when God shall put into the hart of Kings to hate the Romish whoore of Babylon to eate her flesh and to burne her with fire But as yet God calling you to repentance you haue no cause to repine against our seuerity much lesse to condemne vs of violence if you seeke not your owne bane by practising of treason and sedition But how do you openlie and without shame saie that we flie openly and without shame all kinde of quiet triall What lawfull kinde of quiet triall hath not bene offered to you Would you haue conference was there not a moste solemne conference agreed vpon in the beginning of her Maiesties reigne where principall men of both parts haue beene chosen to confer and all the states of the realme assembled in parliament readie to heare And who did there openly and without all shame flie the triall did not the pillers of popery vpon a friuolus cauill misliked by their owne Fecknam giue ouer the combate As for priuate confirence it hath bene many times offered and often practised with such of your heresie as be in holde but of them for the moste part misliked or reiected Triall by writing of bookes hath alwaies bene and yet is open free in so much as many of your popish treatises being confuted by vs are allowed to be inserted into our bookes that the indifferent reader may iudge of both more freely and easily a triall which you papists neuer yet durst enter into and a manifest argument that you flie the most indifferent kinde of triall You haue bene openly challenged by Doctor Fulke to conclude the controuersies of religion that are betweene vs in the strict forme of syllogismes both for your owne ease and for the clearnes and certainty of iudgement and this rea sonable request if you refuse to yealde vnto he hath protested before God and the world that you shew your selues thereby to be enemies of trueth that you flie the light and dare not abide the triall And yet these foure yeares day none of you all hath aduentured that most easie certaine and necessary trial which you cannot refuse if you wil haue trueth to be thought to stand on your side Let wise men iudge therefore whether we refuse all kinde of quiet triall and whether it be not a seditious kinde of triall that you would haue as appeared by Campians challenge who although he were a person too contemptible for yeares grauitie learning or honestie to make so proude a chalenge to all the learned and wise of the Church and common welth of England yet when he was brought to light he was conferred withall by diuerse graue and learned men and tried in the defense of his owne treatise in which God wot he was quickly found to be none other then his familiars alwaies knew him to be that is more bold to challenge then able to defend him-selfe more ready to cauill like a childish sophister then to answere like a sober deuine And as for his constancie patience which you magnifie with so many wordes in his iust execution for treason which you falsly terme martyrdome for your false religion there is smale cause you should boast of it but that it is necessarie where you cannot be borne out with trueth to breake through with open lyes For manie hundrethes of eie witnesses can testifie against you that of his patience which yet had bene perforce there was no sufficient trial by torment or sense of bodelie paine at his death other then is vsual to al that be strangled with an halter But as for constancie or cherefull passage vnto his death it appeared lesse in him then in any of his fellowes but rather great tokens of deiection and consternation of his minde bewraied in his colour countenance voice and gesture plainly noted by such as knew his stomach courage lusty behauiour when he was in prosperity That he his complices would acknowledge no guilt of treason whereof they were so cleerely conuicted it maketh their death more detestable sheweth their hipocrisie more damnable who seeing it was necessary for them to die as traitors desired of their fautors to be honored as martirs declaring thereby intollerable rancor and malice against the prince and the state and no lesse pride ambition in them-selues Of such Martyrs boast as long as you will you shall neither get credit by them when their cause is knowne nor terrifie vs with reuenge of their blood when their punishment was iust HEtherto belike you haue spoken to al that abhorre Popery in general for now you will speake aword or two to Master Charke as to his owne person in particuler And two things you tell him of that in this matter
learning which he would seeme to be For all men which know what belongeth to disputation will confesse that it is easier for a learned man to answere with commendation in defense of trueth then to oppugne a true cause with hope to winne credit Wherfore the inequalitie was in the cause not in the disputers parte which was appointed to Campian For if his positions had not bene false by answering he had the aduantage against the opponents Againe Campian did first take vpon him the opponents parte in publishing his booke of tenne arguments against vs which by our side was answered and therefore it was meete and agreable to order he should be appointed to answere and our side to oppose and that by the verie law of equalitie and indifferencie although as it is euident by the reporte of the conference he was permitted somtime to oppose and propounded such arguments as his weake cause could afforde him But you are sure and dare auowe to our faces that we will neuer deale with you at euen hand or vpon equall conditions while we liue You maie be sure that to maintaine your purpose of sedition for which your challenge was made that we will not deale with you at anie hand or vpon anie conditions But to shew your falsehoode ignorance and arrogancie manifest to the world we are readie to ioyne with you in anie conditions that our prince and magistrates will allow vs and shall thinke maie stand with the quiet of the state who seing our religion after lawfull and solemne conference by vs offered and shamefullie refused by your good masters is by law established will not rashlie admitt euerie vaine and ridiculous challenge of disputation that is offered by such as Campian you are who dare auow to our faces and yet dare not shew your owne faces before you be drawen out of your creeping corners and hiding holes as Campian and his complices were Yet you are in the name of all your fellow Catholikes torenew your bublike challenge of equall disputation Who are you and what Commission haue you from your fellow Papists that we may credit you If we knew either the one or the other we might the rather consider of your pretended publike challenge Edmond Campian did more like a Champion who when he cast downe his gloue of defiance spared not his name though he hid his head But you comming with so lowd a challenge so large offers so magnifical promises not of your owne countrimen but of straungers also of matters not in priuate mens power but of the graunt of Princes that in any kingdome and countrie which you call Catholike and moreouer rather then you would faile of disputation are ready to beare the expenses not onely of our countrie-men which are manie but of all the learned Protestants of Europe whome you giue vs leaue to call for our defense must needs haue great intelligence conference with all the popish states in Europe and a wonderfull large commission from them all which we would beglad you should shew for our assurance or els you shew your selfe the noblest foole in the world to thinke that any man will credit you in so weightie matters vpon your owne bare worde not knowing so much as whome to enquire for or where to finde you if we were disposed to confer with you about anie conditions of equalitie to be vsed in the pretended disputation or about the time place or persons to be emploied in the same Neuerthelesse to shew your confidence and desire of triall in all the haste you tell vs that albeit we thinke your cause to be greatlie weakened by the taking awaie and dispatching so you cal the iust execution of Campian Sherwine yet you are the same men you were before yea much more disirous of this triall then before Indeede I am perswaded you are no changelings but euen as the deuill hardneth them whome he hath once in possession so your obstinacie daylie encreaseth both in herisie and treason For the weakening of your cause we neuer accounted any greate moment to be either in Campian or Sherwine more then to the strengthening thereof They were of the ripest frie that your seminarie could afforde sparing the olde stores and yet they were but frothe for any sounde learning that was in either of them You say we were wante for more abasement of the other to saie that M. Sherwine was farre better learned then Campian him-selfe It may be some haue saide soe and they that haue had conference with both doe affirme that is the learned tongues Greeke and Hebrewe Sherwyn had some litle sinacke so that he could talke of them whereas Campian was as blind as a betle in them both Againe Sherwyn in reasoning had for the most parte the common shiftes and ordinarie answers of Papists to the places that were cited out of the Doctors Campian had nothing but friuolous distinctions framed of his owne heade vpon the seddaine seldome or neuer vnderstanding the argument of the booke or place of the Doctors that he was pressed withall So that it might casilie appeare that Sherwin was better studied Campian quicker witted In impudencie they were almost equall sauing that Campian was impudent with arrogancie Sherwine with more shew of humilitie I wil note one example of Sherwins impudencie and an other of his small knowledge in the Hebrewe tongue wherein yet the Papists would beare vs in hand that he was excellent When after some priuate conference had with him in M. Liuetenants lodging within the tower of London My Ladie Hopton chaunsed to speake somewhat against the licentious and abhominable life of the Cardinals and cleargie of Rome Sherwin said if any such thing were they should answere for it themselues but he tooke the eternall God to witnesse that those eyes of his neuer saw in the citie of Rome which he had often walkedouer that could offend his harte or conscience which shamefull protestation of his all that heard him did abhorre seeing that if Rome were the holiest citie that is in Europe as it is wellknowne to be the moste sinfull in 〈◊〉 yet noe honest and religious man could remaine so long in it but he should see some tokens of pride wantonnes couetousnes crueltie or vanitie that must needes be a greife vnto his harte to consider Now for the other matter In the conference itselfe he would haue taken vppon him no smal iudgement in the 〈◊〉 ewe language by auouching that he woâ—â—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and notable corruptions in the Hebrewe text of the Bible when an example was required he brought forth the â—7 v of the 22 Psalme which by like he had learned of Gregoriâ— Martin as Martin had learned of 〈◊〉 here the Hebrew text saide he is C AR I I as a 〈◊〉 my handes and my feete but the truth is as the vâ—lgaâ—e 〈◊〉 station hath they have pearced my hands and my feete Heere when it was answered that of the Mazorites doe discharge this
notwithstanding her maiesties warrant anie daunger to your liues or boast that you offer your selues to perill of life when you demaund a warrant for your safeties without the which you dare not so much as vtter your name that be the challengers And therefore it were a ridiculous sute for a warrant that our ministers shoold commence in your behalfe when they know not what you are nor what warrant you haue from any learned Papists to make such large offers vponwarrant of your safteties seeing it is knowne that the best learned of your side in England haue not only refused the same but some also iudged al disputation to be vnprofitable Your offers I confesse are verie large as that we shal appointe in what kinde and number at what time to what place you shal come either our countrey men onely or strangers to dispute in our vniuersities before the learned onelie that you giue vs leaue to call all the learned protestantes of Europe for our defence you taking onelie our owne countrimen That you giue vs leaue to oppose or defend begin or end or vse anie prerogatiue that maie not impugne the indifferencie of triall But when you aske what we can alleadge why we should not accept this We answere that beside manie causes not here needefull to be rehearsed though before in parte touched we alleadge for this present that we do not beleeue that you are able to performe anie of these liberall offers except we see matter of greater credit then an epistle of an vnknowne papist written to Master Charke a priuate man If you had shewed vs such warrant or commission as wee might probablie haue beene perswaded of the performance of these promises you might more reasonablie haue required what we had to alleadge whie we did not accept them but now there is noe reason in the worlde that we should intreate with our Prince Magistrates vppon these friuolous wordes of an obscure hedge-creeper or boasting bench-whistler for anie thing we knowe I am in the name of all my fellow Catholikes to renew c Once againe I saie to you ministers c. We will giue you leaue c and such like But it is not sufficient that you are liberall at home onelie except you be lauish abroade also for if we had leuer make triall in other Countreies we maie choose what Protestant state we liste and procuring you safetie there you will meete vs. Or if we please to come into anie Catholike Kingdome or Countrie you will procure what securitie soeuer reasonablie we will demaunde and more then that you will beare our expenses also rather then so good a worke should remaine vnattempted or anie other condition that we can denise you will fulfill Then you conclude If we offer you reason then deale somewhat reasonablie with vs againe For all the world will crie shame and beginne to discredite you if you will neither giue nor take vpon so greate oddes as here are offered you I answere you offer vs great wordes but no reason at all because we knowe not what assurance you can make vs to performe your wordes If Master Charke a man well knowne by his name should make the like offer to you by such an other printed epistle or taking your offer should promise you as great warrant as you require at home or abroad and moreouer to beare your expenses rather then you should saile to appeare at anie time or place by him assigned is your simplicitie so great that you would keepe the appointed daie and place of disputation vppon his pure promise without further assurance And yet you can not misse to heare of him his dwelling place at London whereas we know not to whome nor whether to returnethe warrant that it may come to you except per haps youwould haue it proclamed with sound of trum pet sent into all partes of the realme that you maie heareof it It maie be you will alleadge that it is great daunger for you to appeare without warrant of securitie and noe perill for vs to procure you assurance of safetie But all wise men maie see that we should deserue noe lesse punnishment by procuring such a warrant for you vppon so light a grownde if you did not accepte it as you should incur appearing without warrant for anie difference in religion if you be not guilty of fellonie or treason If you ment nothing but peaceable disputation for trial of truth you would not make your challenge in printed libels and seditious pamphlets but rather seeke it at the handes of them that haue authoritie to graunt it by intercession of those forreigne princes with whome you pretend your credit to be so great that you can procure what securitie soeuer reasonablie we can demaund in their dominions But to vse anie such lawful meanes I trowe you will make no haste when you wil not accept that quiet forme of triall by syllogismes in writing which by Doctor Fulke so manie yeares agoe was offered vnto you and yet is free for you to take if it please you and that without sute without daunger and to the best and surest triall of the trueth But if we dare not venture with disputations yet you require vs to graunt you certaine sermons to encounter with vs vpon this matter A verie reasonable request I assure you when you will graunt the like libertie of preaching in Spaine or Italie we will become suters for you to preach in England Or if that also be to daungerous we must procure you but a litle passage for your bookes speciallie Master Charke must obteine licence free passage for this booke vntil it be answered Sir whenwe see what passage you can wil procure for our bookes at lest such as be not answered vntill they be answered in places where they are now restrained we will endeuour that you shall haue the like entertainement with vs. In the meane time take what controuersie you will or thinke you selfe best hable to prooue against vs set downe such arguments as you haue to oppose against our assertion in lawfull and logicall syllogismes and whether you send them written or printed you shall receaue them againe printed with our answeres to them and haue as free passage for your arguments as shall be graunted for our answers If you will replie against our answers in like forme aforesaide you shall haue our 〈◊〉 in like manner set forth with your replie and 〈◊〉 the grace of God you shall not faile of toties quoties vntill you be non plus or which we had rather will he vntill you yeald to the trueth This offer is so reasonable that when the like was made to M. Mettham one of the prisoners at Wisbeach M. Fecknam of his equitie acknowledged that there could no more be required Butas Mettham did then refuse it so I am afraid will you And yet it is more then you will doe for vs to giue licence that our bookes may
be read of euerie man amonge you with your confutations And Doctor Windham then saide that no wise state would suffer it Neuerthe lesse our state God be thanked vpon conscience of trueth on our side hath with no lesse wisedome then good successe alwaies permitted your bookes with our answers to them to be read of all men to iudge indifferentlie so they conteine nothing but question of religion and not shamefull diffamations and inuectiues against the prince and the state of gouernement which matters deserue to be answered with an axe or an halter rather then with penne and paper But to permitte your bookes vnconfuted to haue free passage althoughe they passe with an hundred times lesse daunger then ours maie doe among you as you require it were neither wisedome godlines equitie nor reason AN OVERTHROVVE OF THE ANSVVERE TO Master Charkes preface touching Discerning of Spirites M. Chark beside the matter in question c. IF this answerer beside the matter in question had not made manie vnnecessarie and vnpertinent digressions the substance of his answere might haue bene contained almoste in as fewe lines as nowe it filleth leaues The triall of the Spirites which Saint Iohn requireth that is by the kinde of doctrine in teaching Christ and not the qualitie of the teachers Master Charke desireth the aduersaries refuse allowing nothing finallie but the onelie and falselie named title of the Catholike Church of Rome for them-selues and accusations of the persons some perhapes true some vtterlie false against vs. To this practize so manie popish treatises and this especiallie in hand doe giue testimonie This is the summe of Master Charkes preface Nowe commeth our answerer and because he had manie by-quarrels to deliuer he taketh occasion to vtter them in this place though litle or nothing pertaining to the direct confutation of Master Charkes preface First he chargeth Master Charke to saie that the Papists refuse Saint Iohns triall which is false for their bookes are extant wherebie they haue called to triall all sectaries of our time among whome he nameth Munster and Stancarus against whome I neuer heard what Papists haue exercised their style especiallie Stancarus holding one principle comming verie neare to their position of Christs priesthood to be onelie according to his manhood as Stancarus taught that Christ was a mediatour onelie after his humanitie but reade their bookes who shall and he must needes confesse Master Charkes saying to bee true For first or last they draw all triall to Rome and not to examine which doctrine giueth al glorie to God by Iesus Christ our onelie Sauiour which is the scope of Saint Iohns triall But if wee had not desired triall of Spirites saith he wee would not haue laboured so much to obteine the same of our aduersaries in free printing preaching or disputation You speake of great labor which none of vs euer heard that you tooke except it were in spreading a fewe coppies of Campians seditious libell not to the end of triall of spirites for discerning of trueth but to the stirring vp of mens bodies and mindes to treason and rebellion as the like labors by the like messengers tooke effect and make manifest demonstration in Ireland But if free printing preaching and disputation be a goodway for discerning of Spirites that Christ maie be knowne from Antichrist whie doe not you Papists graunt the same in Spaine Italie and other countreis thrall to the Popes tirannie yet assaulted by the doctrine of the gospell as by the power of Christ against Antichrist if it be not a good waie as it seemeth you thinke because you take it not your selues how can you saie that you require in those places this triall of spirites No no it is an other triall of the sharpest swordes that you meane when you require such triall of Spirites You adde further of the aduenturing of your liues in comming and offering the same to vs at home with so vnequall conditions on your side as you haue done and dailie doe for the triall of trueth There is no daunger of life among vs in offering the triall of Spirites according to Saint Iohns rule but in seeking to auerte the Queenes subiects from their duetifull obedience vnto her Maiestie to make a waie for the execution of the Popes moste blasphemous and traiterous Bull and this hath procured moste iuste and necessarie execution of some fewe of you and not as you slaunder iustice that offering to trie the truth hath obtained nothing hitherto but offence accusations extreame rackings and cruell death Againe these inequall conditions these daily offers these manie petitions and supplications that you speake of whoe hath made to whome haue they bene offered when were they presented where were they seene or heard by whome were they refused except Campians ridiculous challenge be all in all with you But what will a Papist spare to affirme that he maie make falsehood haue some likly shape of truth yet being admitted that you offer trial it must be seene whoe doe offer best meanes of triall And here you will endeuour to shew that all meanes of triall which Master Charke and his fellowes will seeme to allow in worde For they offer none in deede are neither sure possible nor euident but meere shifts to auoide all triall and that your selues do offer all the best and surest waies of triall that euer weere vsedin the Church for discerning an hereticall spirit from a Catholike Your indeuour is great but your abilitie is small for you shall neuer be able to demonstrate either the one or the other howsoeuer with vaine sophistications and wrested authorities you seeke to dasell the eies of the simple Let vs heare therefore howe you beginne The onelie meanes of triall you say which Master Charke will seeme to allowe is the scripture But this is a shift common to all heretikes especiallie of our time First you slaunder Master Charke in saying that he alloweth the scripture to be the onelie meanes of triall of spirites whereof he speaketh not at all in this preface but of triall of spirites by the doctrine of Christ which is moste plainlie and certenlie set forth in the holie scriptures and therefore by the holie scriptures the doctrine maie best and moste certenlie be tried and iudged But that Master Charke by referring him selfe to the holie scriptures onelie as suffiâ—â—â—n and â—â—le to decide all controuersies of Religion doth denie or exclude all other meanes of 〈◊〉 whereby the true meaning of the scripture may be knowne it is impâ—dent he affirmed without either proofe or likelihood of truth as hereafter more plainlie will appeare Saint Augustine as though he were an enimie of conâ—â—â—â—ing heresies by the authoritie of the scriptures onelie is quoted in the margent de nupt Concup lib 2. cap. 31 whose words are these Non est miâ—â—am si Pelagiani dicta nostra in sensus 〈◊〉 volunt detoâ—quere conaâ—tur quando de scripturis sanctis non vbi obscurè
aliquid dictum est sed vbi clara â—â—aperta sune testimonia id facere consueuerunt more quiaâ—â— haereâ—icorum etiam caetâ—rorum It is no maruel if the Pelagians endeuor to wrest our sayings into what senses they will when they are accustomed to do the same by the holie scriptures not where any thing is spoken darkely but where the testimonies are cleere and manifest after the manner indeede of the rest of heretikes These wordes of Saint Augustine doe as aptelie agree to the Papists as though they had bene by name vttered against them as in that which followeth you shall see verified in this Papist whoe both wresteth out sayings to such sense as himselfe pleaseth and also the holie scriptures themselues where they are most plaine and euident against him a right pranek of olde herenkes Note also by the waie that the scripture by Saint Augustines iudgement containeth most cleere and euident testimonies which though they be neuer so much wrested of herenkes yet in the conscience of all that loue the truth they doe manifestlie deliuer true doctrine and confute false and therefore be not as a nose of wax or a leaden rule by which no certentie maie be found or anie sure triall had by them as the Papists doe blaspheme The next quotation l. 3. cont Donat. ca. 15. is vncertaine because of diuerse treatises that S. Augustine did write against the Donatists but I gesse he meaneth his booke de Baptismo contra Donatistas where yet is nothing to his purpose or to anie purpose in hand but that the scripture of the Gospell If it be wholl is the same although it be alleadged by innumerable heretikes according to the diversitie of euerie one of their opinions and so Baptisme ministred by heretikes according to the institution of Christ is the same what opinion soever the heretikes haue of the wordes by which it is consecrated and ministred He saith also that the snares of heretikes and schismatikes are therefore very pernicious to carnal men because their proâ—ting in knowledge is shut from them their sentence of vanitie being confirmed against the Catholike trueth and their sentence of dissention being conâ—â—â—med agâ—inâ— the catholike peace These things are true of obstinate heretikes and consequentlie of Papists but they make nothing against Master Chark or for the triall of spirits which is the question now debated betweene him his aduersarie But that the scriptures are sufficient to beate downe al heresies and to reach all trueth necessarie to saluation and the onelie sure and certaine triall whereby all doctrine is to be examined and adiudged the same Augustine doth plentifullie and in manie places of his workes declare and euen in that same worke de Baptismo contra Donatistas lib. 2. Cap. 2. de vnitate Ecclesiae cap. 2 3. 16. de nup. conc lib. 2. cap. 29. de peccat merit remiss lib. 3. cap. 7. de natura gratia cap. 60. c. Three causes there be saith our answerer of appealing onelie to scripture The first to get credit with the people by naming of scripture to seeme to honor it more then their aduersaries doe by referring the wholl triall of matters vnto it To winne credit by cleauing to the authoritie of God expressed in his holie word written and to honor it by acknowledging the sufficiencie thereof for the triall of all matters of religion that maie comme in controuersie is no shift of heretikes or new teachers but the auncient practize of the best and most approoued Catholikes To pretend these things in shew and not to accomplish them in deed is the guise of hypocrites what religion soeuet they would seeme to mantaine The second cause saith he is by excluding Councells fathers and aunciters of the Church whoe from time to time haue declared the true sexse of scripture vnto vs to reserue vnto them selues libertie and authoritie to make what meaning of scripture they please and thereby to giue colour to euerie fansie they list to teach But Master Charke and his fellowes giuing the soueraigne authoritie to the onely scriptures do not at all exclude councells fathers and aunciters of the Church except it be in case where they teach contrarie to the manifest scriptures of god which doe either in expresse and plaine wordes or els by moste easie and necessarie conclusion deliuer vnto the Church all things needefull to be credited and knowne vnto eternall life as both the Apostle testifieth 2. Timoth. 3. and S. Augustine a worthie Father auncient of the Church consenteth Ep. III. Fortunatiano Neque enim quorumlibet disputationes quamuis CatholicoruÌ„ laudatorum hominum velut scripturas canonicas habere debemus vt nobis nonliceat salua honorificentia quae illis dcbetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere si fortè inuenerimus quòdaliter senserint quà m veritas habet diuino adiutorio vel ab aliis intellecta vel à nobis Talis ego sum in scriptis aliorum tales volo esse intellectores meorum Denique in his omnibus quae de opusculis sanctorum atque doctorum commemoraui Ambrosij Hyeronimi Athanasij Gregorij siqua alioruÌ„ talia ita legere potui For we ought not to accompt the disputations of all men although they be catholike praise worthie as the Canonicall scriptures that it should not be lawful for vs sauing the reuerence which is due to these men to disalow and reiect something in their writings if perhaps we haue found out that they haue thought otherwise then the truth is of things by gods helpe either vnderstood of others or of our selues Such one am I in the writings of other men such would I haue other men to be vnderstanders of my writings Finallie in all these which I haue rehearsed out of the workes of holie and learned men Ambros Hicrott Athanasius Gregorie Andif I could so reade any like of other mens writings c. Also Ep. 112. Pauline 〈◊〉 scripturarum earum scilicet quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua firmatur authoritate fine vlla dubitatione credendum est Aliis verò testibus vel testimoniis quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat quantum meriti ea admonentem ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis What sceuer is confirmed by the plaine cleare authoritie of the holie scriptures of those truelie which are called in the Church canonicall without all doubt is to be beleeued But other witnesses or testimonies by which anie thing is counselled to be beleeued it is lawfull for thee to beleeue or not according as thou shale waigh what worthines he that counselleth those things hath to cause credit or els hath not Againe De doctrina christiana lib. 3. cap. 6. Magnificè salubriter spiritus sanctus ita scripturas sanctas modificauit vt locis apertioribus fami occurreret obscurioribus autem
Luther say that he hath but one sacrament for vs in that mea ning of the word sacrament in which he is charged by the cauiller to alter his opinion so shortlie but in an other meaning neither doth he saie that this one sacrament is haptisme in which I can but wonder at the impudency of this fellow that forgeth this last lie in his owne braine without all colour or shew of Luthers words as though Luther would allow no sacrament of the Church but Baptisme The wordes of Luther are these of the number of sacraments After he hath denied the number of seauen admitted for the present but three namely Baptisme penance the supper all which he affirmeth by the court of Rome to be brought into miserable captiuitie and the Church spoiled of all her libertie he addeth Quanquam si vsu scripturae loqui velim non nisi'vnum sacramentum habeam tria signa sacrament alia de quo latiùs suo tempore Although if I would speake after the vse of scripture I haue but one sacrament and three sacramentall signes whereof more at large in due time This one sacrament whereof he speaketh is the holie mysterie or secret of our redemption or saluation by Iesus Christ of which the other that are commonlie called sacraments are holie and mysticall signes so that herein he changeth no opinion of the thing but onelie speaketh of the diuerse taking of the worde Well yet will our a duersarie replie he alloweth three sacraments so doth the confession of Auspurge Melancthon fowre and Caluine two and all this by onelie scripture I haue shewed before sufficientlie that this question of the number of those signes that maie be called sacraments properlie or vnproperlie generallie or speciallie is not determinable by the holie scriptures because this name of sacrament is not found in them Those holie mysteries which by externall elements do testifie the inuisible grace of God workeing in vs vnto our saluation by regeneration and preseruation are plainlie set forth in the scripture Baptisme and the Lords supper without naming them sacraments which comprehend that whol mysterie of our saluation which Luther calleth the onelie sacrament by the vse of the scripture according to which explication of the word sacrament there are but two so rightlie properlie and speciallie to be termed according to the auncient vsage of the Latine Church and no more acknowledged by anie protestant of sound religion For Luther his enemies shall testifie which were appointed to gather out of his writings whatsoeuer they thought to be erroneous to be obiected against him this is their Censure Negat septem esse sacramenta sed tantùm tria pro tempore ponenda baptismum poenitentiam panem Immo non nisi vnum esse sacramentum tria figna sacramentalia Duo tamen in Ecclesia Dei esse sacramenta baptismum panem He denieth say the collectors that there are seauen sacraments but that three onelie for the time are to be admitted baptisme penance and the breade nay rather that there is but one sacrament and three sacramentall signes neuertheles there are two sacraments in the Church of God baptisme and the bread Luthers iudgement thus appearing by the confestion of his owne aduersaries that as baptisme and the supper are called sacraments there are no more that rightlie and properlie can beare that name The confession of Auspurge and Melancthon which as our answerer saith pretend and professe to follow Luther in all things can haue none other meaning in this matter of the number of the sacraments of the new testament And Melancthon expressely discoursing of the term sacrament sheweth how diuerslie it maie be taken to comprehend two three or fowre And in the last edition of his common places where he answereth the articles of the Bauaricall inquisition he holdeth but two properlie to be called sacraments as Luther before him in his Catechisme the greater and the lesser Wherefore this friuolous cauill is thus easilie discussed to the shame of the cauiller and to the attestation of our consent in the matter and substance of trueth The like brable of wordes he maketh of the title of heade of the Church which Caluine and the Magdeburgeans doe mislike and Caluine in King Henrie found to be Antichristian but Caluines folowers in England do finde by onelie scripure to be moste Christian. Where all the dissention is in the terme which being rightlie vnderstood as by law it hath bene confirmed vnto the Prince conteineth no other authoritie then Caluine and all other professors of the Gospell do acknowledge to pertaine vnto the Christian magistrate and is prooued to be moste Christian not onelie by scripture but also by testimonie of the moste auncient and Catholike Fathers of the Church as it were easie to shew but that it is here no place to decide these controuersies The title of supreme head of the Church graunted to King Henrie Caluine saieth was blaspheomus not as it was vnderstoode of the godlie at that time but as it was applied by Stephen Gardiner who in a conference at Ratisbone cared not much for the testimonies of the scripture but said it was in the Kings power to abrogate decrees and to institute new ceremonies as to appoint daies of fasting abstinence from flesh c. And not staying there he proceeded further to affirme that it was lawfull for the King to forbid mariage vnto Priests to forbid the laie people to drinke of the cup in the Lords supper and generallie to commaund or for bid in his kingdome what he would because he had soueraigne authoritie This authoritie or the title in this sense neither our princes do accept neither doth anie godlie man allow vnto them A third example he bringeth of burning of heretikes wherein he saith The Protestants a greate while by onelie scripture defended against the Catholikes that no heretikes might be burned or put to death whereof large bookes are written on both partes Now they haue found by euident scripture that they maie be burned As though there were not controuersies enow betweene the Papists and the Protestants this man will needes make more as this of putting blasphemous heretikes to death which was neuer denied the scripture of stoning blasphemers false Prophets and Idolaters being so manifest A. nabaptists indeede and such like sectaries are lothe that heretikes should be punished with death But there hath bone long bookes saith he written thereof on both partes If you aske him by whome he biddeth you in the margent looke Eckius in Encher and Luther contra Latom. de incendiariis Would you not thinke this follow had read these treatises for burning of heretikes pro contra whereunto he sendeth vs to iustifie his saying of large bookes written on both partes but in truth he either neuer saw the bookes or els he is the moste impudent forger that euer was heard of for Fckius in his litle booke called Encheridion loco 27. de hereticis Comburendis
will so that she was among them baptized and tooke vpon her the forme of a Nunne whome her father would by force and stripes haue compelled to returne to the Catholike Church but he was forbidden by S. Augustine to vse such force if she would not come with a good will This maie touch Papistes also which haue and do professe nunnes monkes and Priestes yong vndiscret persons against the consent of their parentes but how it should be applied against vs I cannot see But here the notebooke was to blame to quote these places for such purposes the answerer I hope is not so impudent that if he had read the places him-selfe he would for shame haue noted them against vs or els haue added as he doth Finally he noteth it as heretical in the Arrians to appeall from traditions to onelie scripture lib. 1. Contra Maximinum In all which booke there is no such matter for neither doth Maximinus appeale from traditions neither is he noted for so doing by Saint Augustine In deede he often times boasteth of the authoritie of holie scriptures and in that conference he manie times calleth for testimonies of holie-scripture and professeth that he is wil be a disciple of the holie scriptures But for this he is not reproued of Saint Augustine but still pressed with the authoritie of holie scriptures whereof he falselie boasted and when he doth but once call to witnes the councell of Ariminum Saint Augustine in his answer telleth him plainlie that he ought not to alleadge with anie preiudice that Councell against him as neither him selfe the Councell of Nice against the Arrians but requireth that the matter be decyded by authority of the scriptures which are common to bothe partes But Irenaeus in deede doth note it as hereticall in the Valentinians to appeale from the holie scripture to traditions without the which they affirmed that the trueth could not be found in the scriptures which they accused to be diuerselie or doubtfullie written as the Papists do in comparing them to a nose of wax or a leaden rule So the contrarie to that he falselie saith was noted as hereticall by S. Augustine is in trueth noted as hereticall by S. Irenaee But Optatus before Saint Augustine saith he noted it as hereticall in the Donatistes to breake altars whereupon the bodie and blood of Christ were kept as the wordes of Optatus are You must vnderstand that these altars were communion tables made of wood and remooueable couered with a linnen cloth in the time of celebration of which in spite of Catholike Religion some they brake and some they seraped onelie for which follie they are derided by Optatus So plaied the Papistes with the communion tables in the beginning of Queene Maries raigne calling them in despite oister bordes and breaking them with as great furie and without lawfull authoritie as the Donatistes did The like parts they plaied with the communion cups of which he also complaineth as also challenging to them-selues the Church yeardes that the bodies of the Catholikes might not be buried in them So did the Papists in Queene Maries time But the wordes of Optatus are saith our answerer that the bodie and blood of Christ were kept vpon those altars He would haue vs thinke that the sacrament of the altar was kept in a pixe as among the Papistes But the wordes of Optatus are not so For albeit he calleth the communion table an altar as it was commonlie called at that time yet he saith not that the bodie and blood of Christ was kept vpon it his wordes are quid est enim altare nisi sedes corporis sanguinis Christi For what is the altar but the seat both of the bodie and blood of Christ And lest you should thinke that it was a permanent seat wherein the sacrament was kept as it is among the Papistes he saith further speaking of the breaking and scraping of these wooden altars Quid vos offenderat Christus cuius illic per certa momenta corpus sanguis habitabat what had Christ offended you whose bodie and blood at certaine moments of time did dwell there By which wordes he sheweth that the sacrament of the bodie and blood of Christ taried no longer there then vntil the time of the distribution of the same vnto the communicants As for breaking downe of Idolatrous altars and prophaning of all instrumentes belonging to them we haue the word of God as a sufficient warrant so that we cannot iustlie be likened to the Vandales that were Arrians or to Iulian the Apostata which defaced the Religion of the Christians so long as our Religion by the scriptures can not be conuinced of heresie or Apostasie For as heretikes and ethnikes destroied the Religion of Christ with the places and instruments vsed in the exercise thereof so did the Christians serue the Tempells of Idolls and all other monuments of gentilitie and heresie The Papists do no more spare our holie Bibles then we do their prophane bables They breake our tables and cuppes as we do their altars and challices they burne our bodies as we doe their Idolls Finallie it is the Religion that must iustifie or condemne these actions the actions are no sufficient trial of the trueth of Religon Here againe he appealeth to publike disputation or to any other indifferent waie of triall that we dare afford him As for publike disputation we dare if the Magistrates thinke it conuenient but a most in different waie of triall by writing their arguments in syllogismes Doctor Fulke offered for certaine yeares agoe before Campian crept forth with his seditious challenge the offer still remaineth take vp his gloue you Papists if ye dare As for the seditious commendation of Campian and Sherewyn condemned and executed for high treason where with he hath neuer done I will omitte That all heresie is beggerrie which he laboureth to prooue out of Saint Augustine and that the Maiestie of the Catholike cause is greater then heresie can oppresse we doe willinglie graunt Onely let not the maiestie of Christian religion be esteemed by the multitude or wordlie pow er of them which professe it wherein yet the Protestantes are not much inferiour to the Papists at this time but by the riches and glorie of Gods truth reuealed in his holie word wherein Poperie whensoeuer triall is made sheweth it selfe like a moste filthie roge and miserable beggar though she seeke cloakes of eloquence learning authoritie of men or any such like things to couer her And among all that in these times haue taken vpon them to defend her there is not a more beggerlie marchant then this proud answerer who hauing no reading of his owne nor any other good quality of a defender but a brasen face an heape of scornefull words is faine to scrape all his patches of learning out of some other mens notes or suggestions in which he is as voyde of knowledge as a beggar is of honor or riches The
quartered for offering disputation onelie or at al. But this you must say to vs Ministers for our good that it were farre better we confessedour feare in plaine wordes then so much to manifest it in deedes and thereby io discredit the rest of our sayinges What feare I praie you and by what deedes doe we manifest it so much be like the Ministers of England racked and quartered Campian for feare lest he should ouercome them in disputation as the popish Priests torment and burne them whom they are not able to stand against in disputatiō we will confesse in plaine words that we are perilouslie afraid of you in deede where you may practise your malice against vs by massacres and martyring of our bodies with al kinde of cruel torments bloodie persecution euen vnto death that by fire but of your learning art of disputing or anie thing that you can bring in the waie of disputation either to maintaine your heresie or to oppugne the trueth of our religion we neuer shewed our selues fearefull or made daungerous to ioyne with the proudest of your part in publike disputation though it cost some of vs their liues for none other crime but because you could not vanquish them in disputation to make them yeald vnto your falsehood or to denie the trueth and therefore there is no reason we shoulde be afraied of your disputers when we liue vnder the protection of a moste gratious Prince who is readie to defend both our persones from iniurie and our Religion from contempt and contumelie you must therefore seeke out other manner of deedes wherein we so much manifest our feare of you then the racking or quartering of popish traitours which all men and your selfe doe know to be no actes or deedes of the ministers but of the Magistrates as also that the same punishment is not laied vpon them for anie cause of religion much lesse for offering disputation but for horrible and heinous treason or els al men wil account you to be but a wodden disputer to charge vs with feare shewed in deeds whereof you can shewe none that is oures or can argue the like feare in them whose deedes they are The rest of the matter contained in this defence of the first section of the Censure and of the next is so good stuffe that it needeth none other confutation then Master Charkes replie against which it defendeth the Censure Where the Censure said there can nothing be had from them but wordes Master Charke for himselfe referreth men to his answere and for Master Hamner he saieth that he hath brought more reason with his wordes then the Censurer will be able to answer But that is not the Censurers purpose in respect of the desired disputation and the disired disputation is a seditions challenge as hath beene plainlie prooued For otherwise what arguments so euer for your parte haue beene brought by the Censurer haue bene by Master Charke Master Hanmer fullie answered which is a sufficient acceptation of disputation offered if no surther matters were intended and a more profitable kinde of disputation then that you desire the printed bookes extending far and neere carying a certaine and vndoubted relation as well of the argumentes as of the answers whereas in your desired disputation it may well be thought that you hoped to triumph rather in multitude of boasting wordes to be vttered with impudent audacity by your brabling sophisters and in the false reportes spread by your lying sicophants then to obtaine anie victorie by sound arguments or sufficient answeres which thing wel appeared in the disputation that was graunted to Campian and other of your sect with Master Charke and the rest of the Godlie learned that had conference with them But now because of that which Master Charke hath saide of Master Hanmer bringing matter with his wordes you will binde him to defend euerie syllable in Master Hanmers booke are not ashamed to charge him that he will needes take vpon him the auochement of Master Hanmers doings with what reason euery man that hath but a crum of reason may iudge Therfore such matters as you require Master Charke to answere for he maie if he thinke good in his next writing satisfie your request although he haue by no promise bounde him-selfe thereto and Master Hanmer is sufficient to answere for him selfe and therfore by me they shal be passed ouer with silence being but quarrells and cauills what the Iesuites hold or holde not The like I saie to your collection of the effect of Master Hanmers booke which is performed so wiselie and pithelie that you seeme to haue found out a verie compendious and easie kinde of confutation of any booke that misliketh you Although the same briefe kinde of declaring the effect of Master Charkes booke doth not satisfie your minde and therefore you passe ouer his replie without examination promising to verifie all that you haue saide and he denieth in their particuler places because in deede M. Charkes replie doth so clearelie discusse the smooke of your vaine cauillations that you are ashamed to bring them againe into open light therefore referre them to seueral corners neuerthelesse I wish that all indifferent readers as in all places so in this wil vouchsafe to read M. Charkes replie betwene the censure the defence or at lestwise after the defence in which for the moste parte they shall see the defense ouerthrowne touching the substance thereof before euer it was written or deuised Touching the order and diuision of the booke that you will needes make we must be content to follow you although no wise man doubteth whatsoeuer you pretend to the contrarie but it had beene more easie both for your selfe and for the replier of whome you would seeme to haue a friendlie care and moste of all for the vnderstanding of the reader that you had followed Master Charke from point to point ashe followed Campians challenge if your bad cause could haue abidden the light of so cleare a method As for the long and bitter inuectiues of spitefull and contumelious speeches odious accusations light suspitions insufficient collections vaine surmises of treasons rebellious dissimulations practises c. which you pretend to haue bene the occasion of changeing the order in so short a treatise as Master Charkes is could be no reasonable cause thereof but rather if anie such had bene they had ministred great aduantage to you and your cause if you had orderlie confuted them How indifferentlie and without choler you offer your foure points to be examined both in your censure and in the defense of the same each man of what humor soeuer he be maie with a meane iudgement be able to consider The first parte touching the societie of Iesuites and the first section intituled by him Ofrailing YOu would conuince Master Charke of rayling by his owne confession because he acknowledgeth his labour imployed in certaine vehement speaches by you gathered together to bring the
discharge your Iesuites of herisie and treason the wordes of scorpions and venemous spiders are no railing termes but apt to expresse their venemous and poisonous practises for they are vsed in scripture to describe the like mischeuous workes as Apocal. 9. Esa. 59. 5. The rest of his speaches haue either the same or the like phrases iustified in the scriptures against corrupters of Religion and enimies of publike peace as we shewe your Iesuites to be for the former and their practises to the confusion of some of them haue beene discouered for the latter With Master Hanmers termes I will not meddle who is to answer for him-selfe when you haue confuted his arguments or els when he shall see it conuenient Doctor Fulke the next man whom you condemne to be of a ruffianlike spirit because he saith shew me Allin if thou canst for thy guttes as though you raile not more of him in your ruffianlike terme then he in speaking of Allens guttes whatsoeuer the cause or affection were hath answered alreadie in his own behalfe in such sort as more shame redowndeth to you that haue gathered together his vehement and sharpe speaches vttered in manie bookes and to those whome you complaine by him to be abused while he giueth a reason of his speaches then all the eloquence you haue wil be able to wipe away in a larger treatise then your defense of the Censure as yet appeareth to be Confut of Topish quarrelles page 20. and so forth in 16. or 17 pages If it were no more but your marginall note Docter Fulkes talent in railing wherein you abuse an holie phrase of scripture like an Italian Atheist to mooue Sardonicall laughter it were much more able to conuince you of a ruffianlike spirit then anie terme that D. Fulke vseth seeing such vnreligious allusions vnto the termes and matters of holie scripture cannot be defended in anie man cause or manner The like you haue of Primitias spiritus and Luthers lying with a Nunne in the Lord all which argue a prophane spirite and a licentious intemperate and almoste blasphemous tongue or penne in anie that vse them or the like When you haue almoste done with Doctor Fulke you take vpon you to shew the like rayling in the Masters as you terme them that you haue done in the schollers and beginning with Iohn Caluin you saie that his ordinarie terme especially against Bishoppes and such like as are his superiours is to call them Nebulones knaues which beside the foull gall whence it proceedeth is vnseemelie For this you neither note nor quote anie one place where he vseth that terme in such sort as either his gall might thereby be espied or the same signfying light persons might not fitlie be applied vnto them vpon whome he bestowed the terme As for your popish Bishoppes are not his superiours but for the most part deserue sharper termes then Nebulones euen such as were fitte for Annas Caiphas Ananias and the rest of that race which were as great prelates as they Hauing nothing more against Caluin you passe ouer to Luther who in his booke against King Henrie the eight of England ministreth vnto you larger matter to triumph against him where in it maie be doubted whether you had greater pleasure in discouering of Lu ther 's intemper at stile then in displaying those odious and long since buried reproches against that noble Prince so great an enimie to your Romish Antichrist which as they were vnseemelie in respect of either of their persons him that did write the Prince against whom he did write so they were afterward misliked of Luther himselfe who in as great humilitie as before he did write in disdaine craued pardon at his handes not for the matter substance of his booke but for his vnreuerent handling of the same against a King of so great nobility of so good expectation the cause that mooued him to such destemper was for that he supposed that the booke was not endited by the King him selfe but by some enimie of his to procure his dishonour as he writeth in the same booke Crederes ab insigni hoste regis hunc librum editum in perpetuam regis ignominiam You would thinke that his booke was set forth by some notable enimie of the Kinges to the perpetuall shame of the King And in his Epistle of submission he declareth that he suspected cardinall Wolsey to be the author thereof which made him the bolder to write as he did against it And in the storie of Sir Thomas Moores life written by his sonne in lawe Master Roper which I haue seene it appeareth that Kinge Henrie tooke great displeasure against Sir Thomas Moore for the edition of that booke by which he receiued more dishonour then by anie thing in all his life Luther therfore writing against him that did abuse the name of the Kinge in defence of an euill cause thought he was not bound to spare him because of the Kinges title but that he might so much the rather be free to inueigh against him But this to saie the trueth might be some part of an excuse though not a sufficient defense of his doing neuerthelesse it followeth not here of that he could not be an elect vessell of God or that he had no part of Gods spirit or that he was herein worsse then anie russian or rakehell as our seuere Censurer saith without either malice or railing spirit I warrant you For Gods elect children they that haue a great part of his spirit do sometimes fal into far greater crimes then this and yet by his grace are brought to repentance as Luther was for this vntemperat stile and thereof made open confession in his epistle of submission againe he erred by immoderat zeale yet in defense of the truth which is not the cause that mooueth ruffians and rakehelles to rage Wherefore it is well with Luther that hath alreadie answered the matter before a more wise and merciful iudge and standeth not at the curtesie of our solemne Censurer But it is more to your purpose that you bring in Luther inueighing against the Caluinistes where he had not by our owne confession a good cause the Caluinistes againe as bitter against him a tast whereof though you refer the matter to another place you wil needes giue vs here by citing of one place in stead of all the rest and that is of the Church of Tygurine against Luther Tygur 〈◊〉 3. contra supermam Lutherij confessionem whole wordes you promise to rehearse out of what edition I cannot tell for the edition of Tigure by Froshere 1545. of Gwalters translation reporteth their wordes somewhat otherwise and therefore I thinke in this place as in diuers other you are but a broaker of other mens ware to put forth that you neuer sawe your selfe but gather out of some other mans notebooke which reported not al thinges either with such diligence or faithfullnes as had beene requisite to be found in
furious deuil yea in the ende after they haue protested their hatred of the deuil al his waies they conclude Deus faxit ne Listhero iuxta domini verbum eueniat Ex abun dantia cordis os loquitur God graunt that it may not come to passe vnto Luther according to the Lords sayings Of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh Now whether these be shameles lyes that the Tygurynes do cal Luther an arch heretike a furious deuil let the readers iudge The second section intituled Of sects and sectaries FIrst you complaine that the answer is somewhat confuse and vnorderlie because Master Charke saith the examples of Elias Elizeus Daniell and Saint Iohn Baptist are no lesse wickedly then vnlearnedly alledged to auow the Iesuites order which hot entrance saie you is ioyned with a manifest cauil because these examples are not alledged to auow the Iesuites order absolutelie but in one point of differen life from the common sort which maketh them no sectaries But in deed Master Charke keepeth good order speaking first of the name of a sect then the definition of sectaries thirdlie to such reasons as are alledged to prooue the Iesuites to be no sectaries namelie these examples which without anie cauil as you surmise he denied to be sufficient to auow the order or companie of Iesuites to be no sectes so followeth the matter of confusion vntil the end of it And now we wil marke his reason as you bid vs. He demaundeth what you are able to bring out of the word of God why Elias should after more then two thousand yeares be brought in for a patron of friars you answer these examples are brought by the censurer to prooue that different apparell diet or straight order of life doe not make sectaries as Master Charke hath affirmed and now cannot defend and therefore hauing nothing els to say maketh these vaine and idle interrogations in steade of proofes Hear you not how confidentlie he speaketh what Master Chark hath affirmed how boldely he pronounceth that he is not able to defend that he hath affirmed and last of all how scornfullie he concludeth that he hath nothing but vaine idle interrogations in stead of proofes would ye not thinke that he which so latelie charged Master Charke with shamelesse lyes though he shewed none had a care that he himselfe should speake nothing but the trueth And which in the end of the former section was so busie with the conscience of Master Charke and Master Whitaker that he burdened them with open dissimulation and blinding of the people is it like that in the beginning of the next section he would make an open and moste impudent lie him selfe for beleue me reader if thou wilt or els read ouer Master Charkes answere to Campians seditious pamphlet thy selfe and thou shalt finde my wordes to be true that Master Charke doth no where affirme in all that booke that different apparell diet or straight order of life doe make sectaries I saie neither in this forme of wordes nor in any other to this effect or sense Then iudge according to thy conscience what a sincere Censurer this Papist is to Master Charke and what a doughtie defender he is of his owne Censure But now to returne to you sir defender whom I may not accuse of lying lest you charge me of rayling although I take you in a manifest vntruth was this the cause why ye found fault with M. Charkes method to iumble together thinges that were in good order that you might fumble out such an open slaunder be couered with the dust of disorder that you your selfe had raised you shew now of what spirit you are euen of his that was a lier and a false accuser from the beginning and the father of the same things But to that idle interrogation of Master Chark as you terme it what was there in Elias Elizeus or Daniel that maie liken them to Iesuites you answere there was to your purpose now in hand a different sort of life from the common sort which made them no sectaries as Master Charke would haue the Iesuits to be for that cause I haue said before for that cause onelie Master Charke would not haue them neither doth he therebie go about to prooue them to be sectaires although there is great difference in the singulare examples of those Prophets and in multitudes of men that seuer them-selues from the common sorte of true Christians and that for religions sake therefore those examples were idlelie brought in by the censurer to prooue that lesuites are no sectaries But to this you adde which is more then you neede as you saie and in deede more then is for your purpose to iustifie the Iesuites that dwell commonlie in the greatest cities That Saint Ierome proueth plainlie that Elias and Elizeus were the beginners captaines and patrones of Monkes and monasticall life whome he calleth for that cause Monkes of the olde testament ep 13 ad Paulinum ep 4. ad Rusticum For Saint Ierome in the former place prooueth not at all but onelie saith Noster Princeps Elias c. our prince is Elias ours is Elizeus our guides are the sonnes of the Prophets which dwelled in the fieldes and desert places and made them tabernacles neere the streames of Iordane The like he saith of the sonnes of Rechab which dranke no wine or strong drink and dwelled in tentes this he saith to approoue the dwelling of solitary men that were giuē to studie and contemplation in desert places by example of these holy men commended in the scripture which extendeth not to Popish Monkes or Iesuites which thrust in them selues especiallie into places of most frequencie of people In the epistle to Rusticus he speaketh neither of Elias nor Elizeus but exhorteth Rusticus likewise to leaue the citie and to get him into some solitarie place if he will be in deede that he professed him selfe to be called Monachus a solitarie man He bringeth in deede the example of Iohn Bap t ist and the sonnes of the Prophets Filij Prophetarum quos Monachos in veteri testamento legimus aedificabant sibi casulas propter fluenta Iordanis turbis vrbium derelictis polenta herbis agrestibus victitabant the sonnes of the Prophets whome wereade to haue beene Monkes or solitary men in the olde testament did build themselues litlecoteges neere to the streames of Iordan and hauing for saken the throng of cities liued with potage and wilde hearbs In the same epistle he saith mihi oppidum carcer and solitudo paradisus est quid desideramus vrbium frequentias qui de singularitate censemur vnto me the towne is prison and the solitarie place is a paradise what do we desire the frequencie of cities which haue our name of being solitarie These wordes of Saint Ierome do shew that in the principall point of profession there is great odds betwixt your Iesuites the solitarie men of the olde
haue no sinne and of the obstinate Iewes If I had not come and spoken vnto them they should haue had no sinne If I had not done those workes among them which no other could doe they should haue had no sinnes Luthers meaning is therefore that vnbeleefe is the greatest and onelie sinne that damneth a man because all other sinns are forgiuen to him that beleeueth is baptized according to the promise of god Secondlie where Luther speaketh expresselie of a Christian baptized you say simplie a man where he saith with any sianes how great soeuer you sate doe what mischeefe he can And as for your blasphemous collection that a man cannot leese his saluation if he would neuer so faine c. and that he may doe what he will so he fall not into incredulitie Luther him-selfe in three wordes sheweth how farre it is from his meaning in his answere to the gatherers of errours out of his doctrine which delt more honestlie with him then you For they said Baptizatum etiam volentem c. that the baptized man though he be willing cannot leese his saluation Luther answereth Quia fides tollis omnia peccara facit volentem non pecca re Rom. 1. because faith taketh awaie all sinnes and maketh a man willing not to sinne For euen in his booke de captiuitate Bab. he addeth this condition which you doe fraudulentlie omitte Siredeat vel 〈◊〉 fides if faith doe returne or stand For by the same faith or rather the trueth of Gods promise all other sinnes are swallowed vp because God cannot denie him selfe if thou shalt confesse him and cleaue faithfullie vnto him that promiseth To conclude faith and good workes be vnseperable and the faithfull man although by corruption of nature he is apt dailie to fall away from God into most greeuous sinnes yet by grace he is either preserued from heinous sinnes or els he is brought to repentance and sorrow for the same So that Luthers doctrine of faith and vnbeleefe if it be vnderstood rightlie as he doth often expiicate himselfe is full of comfort to a troubled conscience yet giueth not bridle to sinne or carnall libertie And therfore howsoeuer you wrest his wordes from his meaning you shew yourselfe no lesse an impudent liar then the false witnesses that deposed against our sauiour Christ that he said destroie this temple and within three dayes I will raise it againe which wordes in deede he spake but not in that sense they deposed and therfore are condemned by the holie ghost as liars and false witnes bearers Luther saith onely infidelitie is the trouble of the conscience because there is nothing but sinne and damnation where there is no faith you conclude that nothing is sinne but vnbeleefe whereas in vnbeleefe there is nothing but sinne and being iustified by faith we haue peace with god And there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Iesus who walke not after the flesh but after the spirit Againe where ' Luther saith that nothing maketh a wickedman but infidelitie because it is the roote of all wickednes and bringeth with it all wickednes you conclude that no other sinne maketh a man wicked which is true if it be vnderstood of him that hath faith is truly penitent for his sinne hath it pardoned by Gods mercie For to such one though his sinns were as redde as scarlet they are made as white as wol neither is he to be called Prauns a wicked man but rectus or iustus a right or a iust man who shall liue by his faith The second doctrine is so manifest a cauill that you doe in a manner acknowledge a satisfaction both by Master Hanmer and Master Charke onelie you would haue it considered how these wordes of Luther do sound in the eares of the people The enne commaundements appertaine nothing to vs. As though Luther did sette downe this Aphorisme so barelie that he did not plainlie declare his meaning For this he saith in his sermon intituled how the bookes of Moses are to be read with fruite Doctorem sanè c. truely we doe receiue and acknowledge Moses as a teacher of whome we learne much profitable doctrine as after shal be said but we do not acknowledge him to be a law giuer or a gouernour sithe he him-selfe restrained his ministerie to that people onelie Againe in answer to this question Why the tenne commaundements are to be obserued of vs Seeing Moses pertaineth not vnto vs he saith Sed inquis c. but thou saiest certainlie the commanndements of Moses that is of God are these not to haue straunge Gods to feare god to trust him and obeie him not to abuse his name to giue honour to parentes not to kill not to steals not to commit adulterie not to beare false witnesse c. is it not necessarie that we obserue these things I answere they are to be oserued of all men and they pertaine to all men not because they were commaunded by Moses but because these lawes that are rehearsed in the tenne commaundements are written in the nature of men For God hath imprinted these notices in all men euen in their creation Wherefore euen the gentiles to whome Moses was unknowen and to whome God hath not spoken as to them do know that God is to be obeyed God is to be called vpon parentes are to be honoured men must adstaine from murther and iniurie of others c. because these thinges displease God and are punished of him In the end he concludeth thus Dico igitur seruanda esse hee 〈◊〉 decalogi c. 1 saie therefore that these ion commaundementes are to be obserued not because Moses hath 〈◊〉 them which thing pertained to that people one lie but because all men haue these knowledges imprinted in nature with which Moses also agreeth If this be not sufficient to declare his iudgement to be farre from abolishing of the morall law I reporre me to you Now whether the ten commaundements appartaine more to Christians then to gentiles or Iewes we will not 〈◊〉 at this time Howsoeuer it be Luther saith not as you conclude that by this meanes they should no more appertaine to vs then to gentiles in whose nature also they were written But rather the contrarie maie be concluded by good Logick out of Luthers reason If they did appertaiue to the gentiles because they were writen in their nature much more to Christians in whose heart they are written also by the spirit of god What shall I saie more the Lord shall destroy all deceitfull lippes and the tongue that speaketh proudiie Thirdlie you reporte that Luther said It is a false opinion and to be abolished that there are 4. Gospels For the Gospell of Iohn is the onelie faire true and principall Gospel For this you cited his preface in nouum Testamentum which Master Charke cannot finde nor anie man els that I heare of in latine You saie it is not
〈◊〉 15. articles of heresies which Andreas Zebedeus Preacher of Nion Ioannes Angelus preacher of Burtin both Zuinglians did take vpon them to prooue against Caluine at Berna Caluine being present vpon paine of burning whereupon proceeded the decree of those magistrates in the yeare 1555. April 3. that none of their dominions should communicate with Caluine at Geneua Pontac in anno 1555. The trueth is thatby instigation of that hereticall varlet Bolsec diuerse Preachers neere vnto Geneua quarreled against Caluins doctrine of gods eternall predestination charging him to affirme that god is the author of euil with such like impudent slaun ders whereupon Caluine by license of the Senate of Geneua so purged him-selfe before the Bernates that one Sabastian and Bolsec were banished their dominion And Andrew Zebedey not manie yeares after albeit he were then the most earnest accuser of Caluin in his death bed at Nouidune foure miles from Geneua before the chiefe men of that towne reuoked his errors detested all those his actes against Caluine and commaunded all his papers to be burned in his fight So that whatsoeuer was offered to be prooued nothing was prooued in deede to shew such dissent betweene Caluine and Zuinglius as Master Fulke might not iustlie denie anie dissent betweeneCaluine and Zuinglius in the substance ofChristian religion which was truelie taught by them both notwithstanding any cauills that quarrel-pickers or fault-finders haue deuised against Caluine The sixt section intituled Of the Iesuites doctrine MAster Charke being charged to haue falsified the Iesuites wordes defendeth his reporte by testimony of Donatus Gotuisus out of whose treatise con cerning that matter he professed at the first to rehearse their wordes And that it is lawfull for him to charge them vpon an other mans reporte he bringeth example of the Censurer who reporteth intollerable slaunders of Luther vpon the credit of Lindan Cocleus Hosius This replie the defender thinketh not sufficient because he bringeth three witnesses and Master Charke but one As though three false witnesses were of more credit then one that speaketh the trueth after it is tried and knowne For what Luther affirmeth his owne writinges do declare so that if a thousand Papistes would sweare against him that he hath written otherwise then he did his writinges being open to al mens vew the world might condemne them al of falsehood And if Gotuisus haue reported vntruelie the blame is his and not Master Charkes who citeth his reporte But in the end it shall appeare that Gotuisus hath done the Iesuites no wrong but either in their owne words or in their meaning truelie deliuered the substance of their doctrine howsoeuer they maie cauill to cloake the matter as the defender here compareth Master Charke to a bird taken by the legge for lying and seeking euerie hole to escape The first is that he chargeth the Censurer with foure lies in one sentence this the defender calleth most ridiculous accusations and asketh if men do not pitie the poore minister that stoopeth to so miserable helpes for his reliefe so he laugheth at his lies when he can not iustifie them and turneth the woll matter to a scoffe when he hath not one word to answer for him-selfe he think eth not the matter worthty he defense because the lies are madein no waighty causes And yet a man may iustlie note how looselie he writeth that hath no more regard of trueth the nto rappe out four lies in so short a compas of time and place What wil he do in maters of greater importance I neede not aske for you may see how often he hath beene taken in most impudent and shameles assertions such as maketh me often to thinke that he is no professor of diuinitie which hath anie grounded knowledge him-selfe but some cosening Copesmate chosen out for his impudencie and verbositie to broch such stuffe for vnlearned readers as the note gatherers were ashamed to put forth vnder their owne names But to returne to our starting holes the second saith sit defender is that Master Charke and his fellowes draw all matters against the state as Pasie the madde man dealt with his Master to defend him-selfe when he was neere a shrewd turne for some prankes plaid with his companions and here by name doctor Fulk is charged with this practize and with parasiticall and palpable flatterie who answereth for him-selfe in the treatise often named pag. 44. c. But in trueth Mastet Charke needed not any coards to draw matters against the state out of your writinges for you offer frankelie more then it would be your ease to answer if you durst shew your face And truelie he said that you charge the Magistrates and Bishoppes as if they were careles what doctrine is deliuered to the people when you ask what he and his fellowes dare auouch in their sermons speeches and discourses which they are sure shall neuer come to examination The third hole is by laying all his lies vpon one Gotuisus where his falsehood appeereth in that he did not in all his whole discourse so much as once name or quote his auther Gotuisus either in text or margent MasterCharke answered before that the authors name is quoted in the most bookes so it is to be seene in the margent ouer against those wordes of the text out of a treatise concerning this matter I haue enterlaced their owne wordes as they are to be found in the same booke Where the quotation is Donati Gotuisi lib. de fide Iesu Iesuitarum This being to be read ofeuetie childe in manie hundred copies of what metrall is his face made of that doth so confidentlie denie it because as he saieth beleeue him ifyou list he could neuer happen vpon anie copies that had him quoted And if somehad it he asketh why al had not as though he were ignorant that a fault or an omission escaped in a fewe copies maie be reformed or added in the rest when it is espied The other surmises that follow whie Master Charke should not quote his author Gotuisus are vaine seeing he hath quoted him as also the other charges of treacherie and malitious meaning for so much as there is no proofe of them but his bare word are as easilie denied by vs as they are by him affirmed If in the particulars that follow he be hable to bring anie substantiall matter to confirme anie one of them it maie be considered as the cause shall require and occasion be offered The 7. section entituled Of the nature and difinition of sinne THe first article of the Iesuites doctrine you say is this It is not sinne whatsoeuer is against the worde of God Here you charge Master Charke with guilefull dealing and that you take vpon you to shew by an example of a lawyer that should saie it is not treason whatsoeuer is against the Prince and common wealth which soundeth odiouslie as though nothing committed against the Prince and common wealth were treason
operuerit numquid quia non est ex fide peccatum est prorsus in quantum non ex fide peccatum est non quia per se ipsum factū quod est nudum operire peccatum est sed de tali opere non in domino gloriari solus impius negat esse peccatum If an heathen man saiest thou doe cloath the naked is it sinne because it is not of faith yea out of doubt in as much as it is not of faith it is sinne Not because the deede it selfe which is to cloath the naked is sinne but not to reioyce in the Lord of such a worke none but an vngodlie man will denie to be sinne This and much more to this effect hath Saint Augustine in that place against the Pelagians which with the papists denied that such workes of the infidels were sinne But albeit Saint Augustine be directlie against you yet Saint Ierome you thinke may helpe you in Ezechiell cap. 29. whoe saith thus Caeterùm ex eo quòd Nabuchodonoser mercedem accepit boni operis intelligimus etiam ethnicos si quid boni fecerint non absque mercede Dei iudicio praeteriri But of this that Nabuchodonvser receuied arewarde of good workes we vnderstand that euen the gentiles if they haue done any goood thing are not passed ouer without rewarde by the iudgement of God To this I answere that God rewardeth vertue in the gentiles it prooueth not their morall workes are not sinne in as much as they are not done of faith as S. Augustine at large teacheth in both the bookes and places last cited For those good facts are of the reliques of Gods image not altogether blotted out which God doth reward as his owne worke in them but in as much as they doe not those good deedes well they are sinne in the doers as Saint Augustine saieth and therefore neither Saint Augustine nor Saint Ierome are against Master Charke in this cause The third fault of your definition Master Chark saith is that you restraine sinne onelie to voluntarie action Against which you oppose Saint Augustine in manie quotations where he repeateth these words so often Sinne is an euill so voluntarie as it can be by no meanes sinne except it be voluntarie But what his iudgement was of those wordes appeareth best in his retractations which you quote lib. 1. cap. 13. 15. In the former he saith patest videri falsa haec definitio sed si diligenter discutiaiur inuenieiur esse verissima Peccatum quippe illud intelligendum est quod tantummodo peccatum est non quod est etiam paena peccati c. This difinition maie seeme to be false but if it be diligently discussed it shall be found to be most true For that sinne is to be vnderstood therein which is onelie sinne and not also the punishment of sinne as I haue shewed before when I rehearsed certaine thinges out of my third booke of free will Although euen those sinnes which not vnworthelie are called sinnes not voluntarie because they are committed either by them which know not or which are compelled can not be committed altogether without the will because euen he which sinneth of ignorance sinneth willinglie when he thinketh that to be donne which ought not to be donne And he which doth not those thinges which he will the flesh lusting against the spirit lusteth truelie vnwillinglie and there in doth not what he will but if he be ouercome he consenteth to concupiscence willinglie and therein doth not what he will being free from Iustice and a seruant of sinne And that which in children is called originall sinne when as yet they vse not the free choise of will is not absurdlie called also voluntarie because being drawne from the euill will of the first man it is made as it were comming by inheritance The same in effect he saith C. 15. answering that he had set downe de duabus animabus c. 14. Propterea vera est c. That definition is true for this cause for that that sinne is defined which is onelie sinne and not that sinne which is a punishment of sinne Againe he saith sine voluntate nullum esse petcatum siue in opere siue in origine that there is no sinne without will either in the worke or in the beginning By which sayings Saint Augustines iudgement is plaine that in the particular worke there are sinnes that are not voluntarie as those that come of ignorance or compulsion or as concupiscence original infection yet al these may be called voluntarie in respect of the first mans offence in whome was freedome of will which Master Chark graunteth and therefore that childish insultation needed not but to shew your pride in contempt of others as though al learning had beene bred with you and were like to die if you did not plant it in vs. Saint Augustine therefore is cleere that that sinne which is a punishment of sinne is not voluntarie and that his definition as he calleth it was onelie of sinne which hath none other consideration but as sinne his disputation being against the Manichees which deriued sinne from an euill God and not from the free will of man or deuill first created good by the onelie good God But you haue scripture to prooue euerie act or omission which is sin to be voluntarie because Christ him selfe saith that those things which do defile a man do come from the heart as though nothing might come frō that corruptroote the heart of man which is not voluntarie You your selfe affirm that euil thoughts are not voluntary which he saith come from the heart Mat. 15. 19. Now concerning the obiection of originall sinne there hath beene inough said out of Saint Augustine concer ning the other obiection of manslaughter donne without consent of will which you affirme to be innocencie God defend euerie good Christian from such innocencie At least wise you might haue made such a fact committed by error a voluntarie sinne by the first mans sinne that was of free will which if it had not beene no man should haue erred in that case or anie other But the text you tel vs calleth him an innocent man liberabitur innocens c the innocent shall be deliuered from the hand of the reuenger So great a Rabbin as you would seeme to be by your quotations out of Rabbi Isaac Rabbi Mose and Rabbi Leui should not be ignorant that in the hebrew text the word is harotzeach that is the killer not the innocent which yet is adiudged to escape punishment of death by the politike law because in respect of mans iudgement he hath not offended for which cause also Deut. 19. his blood is called innocent Yet his flying to the citie of refuge and imprisonment there vntill the death of the high priest argueth as Master Charke saith that there is somthing in his fact or the error by which he committed the fact that hath neede of forgiuenes by Christ
a nose of wax is easie to be turned and shaped on euerie side or sort which if it were so must needes be a great fault in the scripture it selfe A hundred positiue lawes and statutes in England are so well penned as all the sophistical heads in christendome cannot finde a starting hole in them by anie peruerse interpretations but thatall they which haue but a meane skill in the lawes will laugh them to scorne And tha I we think so vnreuerently of the holy scriptures giuen by inspiration of god that euerie foolish heretike maie turne them about like a nose of wax but rather that in his said attempt of turning his folly shal be made manifest to al men Pighius saith expressely the scriptures are dumbe iudges as though Godspake not in them and by them vnto vs whose prophane comparison of the holie scriptures with prophane lawes which require Magistrates and iudges to punish the offenders of them euerie Christian man may perceiue to tende to the derogation of the maiesty of them As also euerie childe that hath studied logike but halfe a yeare maie vnderstand his beggerlie petition of the principle when appealing from the iudgement of the scriptures he will be iudged by none but by papists in controuersies and questions that we haue against the papists As for the blacke Gospell and Inkie diuinitie babled by Eccius against the written Gospell If Iesuits can maintaine as Catholike surelie Christians can not heare it without horror of blasphemie If there be no fault or imperfection in the scriptures how saith Pighius that euery man may euidently know without the scriptures in what order the Church is appointed by her author Againe of what moment is the holy scripture if it be not necessarie to decide all doubtes and controuersies in the Church for thus saith Pighius If we receaue the authoritie of the Churches tradition quam si recipimus omnis facilè etiam sine scriptur is inter nos componetur concertatio controuersia cùm de singulis nonfuerit admodum operosum inuenire quid Catholica ab initio Ecclesia senserit Which if we receiue all strife and controuersie betweene vs may easilie be compounded euen without the scriptures Seeing it is no very hard worke to finde out what the Ca tholike Church from the beginning hath thought of euerie question Thus the Ecclesiasticall tradition is set a loft and the holie scriptures excluded as superfluous and vnnecessarie seeing all questions may easilie be decided without them But to giue a better colour to your nose of waxe you saie Saint Ierome doth call the scriptures alledged corruptlie by Marcion and Basilides the diuells Gospell because the Gospell consisteth not in the words of scripture but in the sense But so doth not Christ call the scripture when it was alledged by the deuill neither doth Saint Ierome so call the scripture but the false sense feined by heretikes His wordes are these Grande periculum est in Ecclesia loqui ne fortè interpretatione peruersa de Euangelio Christi hominis fiat Euangelium aut quod peius est Diaboli It is great perill to speake in the Church least perhappes by peruerse interpretation of the Gospell of Christ be made the Gospell of man or that which is worse of the deuill And it is true which he saith The Gospell is not in the wordes but in the sense of the scriptures Yet it is also true that the sense of the scriptures is expressed in those wordes of the scriptures and not included in the Popes breast as the Papists would haue vs thinke that al labour bestowed in seeking the sense of the scriptures is in vaine except we take the interpretation of the Popish Church which sthe iudgement of the Pope as the sure rule to guide vs by But Saint Augustine you saie calleth the scripture the bowe of heretikes Which is not so for he compareth their wresting of the scriptures to the bending of a bowe Ecce inquiunt peccatores tetenderunt arcum credo scriptur as quas illi carnaliter interpretando venenatas inde sententias emittunt Beholde say they the sinners haue bent the bowe the scriptures I beleeue which while they interpret carnallie they send forth poysoned meaninges from them Further you saie Irenaeus compareth it abused by heretikes to a Iewel stamped with the forme of a Dogge or Fox Irenaeus speaketh not of the bodie of the scriptures but of wordes sentences and parables of scripture rent not onelie from their sense but also from their place and patched together with olde wiues fables to make a shew for heresie which is all one as he saith as if a man should breake an excellent Image of a king and when he hath fashioned the peeces beeing pearles or precious stones into the shape of a Fox or Dogge he would yet be so impudent to saie this is that excellent Image of the king which was made by a not able workman This soundeth nothing like the nose of waxe Likewise you saie Gregorie Nazianzen compareth the scripture to a siluer scabberd with a leaden sworde in it The comparison you speake of is in his poemes which I verelie am perswaded that you neuer read but were mocked by your notebooke as many times before For Gregorie compareth not the scriptures as you slaunder him but an hipocrite a man that hath nothing but an externall shew of religion to a leaden sworde in a siluer scabberde his verses are these if you could haue construed them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To these that you might seeme bountifull though you be a verie begger of your owne reading you adde Tertullian and Vincentius Lirinensis of which the former you saie compareth the scripture to the deceitfull ornaments of harlottes the other to poysoned hearbs couered in the Apothecaries shops with faire titles Wherein you slaun der them both for they compare not the wholl scripture as you doe in your nose of waxe but the hereticall bragges of scripture which as they may abuse a peece for a shew so are they confounded by the wholl when the same is rightlie weighed Therefore the comparisons of these auncient Doctors are no more like to your nose of waxe then your nose of waxe is like to the holie scriptures Neither doth the example of Luther calling the scriptures the booke of heretikes expounding him selfe why he so calleth it namely because it is depraued by heretikes defend the Iesuites which to the deprauation of the scriptures vse that similitude as Luther did not in his albeit he might as well haue forborne that title as his rash iudgement against those whome you call sacramentaries for as the one was vnprofitable so the other was vniust But if the Iesuites saie you had reiected any one booke of the scripture as the Protestantes doe many we might iustlie accuse them It is as great a fault to adde to the worde of God as to take from it The Protestantes reiect no booke
FVLKE In that you allow no necessitie that should driue any man to take any sacrament of such as you count heretikes but onelie the sacraments of baptisme and penance in present perill of death and yet account the receiuing of sacraments so necessarie you insinuat whereunto you would bring the matter if it laie in your power and perswasion Your late attemptes by excommuncations and inuasion haue made open your meaning But he that sitteth in heauen shall laugh you to scorne the Lord him-selfe shall haue you in derision and all reasonable men shall thinke you ridiculous while by declaming generallie against heresie and the hurt that cometh thereby you labour to bring your falsehood into credit and the trueth into disdaine It is a great part of popish rhetoricke in these daies to enueie mightelie and eloquentlie against schisme heresie salsehood errors c. let the triall goe whether partie maie be iustlie charged with these crimes But Master Allen albeit he liketh that kinde of disputing and vseth it much him-selfe yet his purpose is in this treatise to examine the matter so throughly that men shal be able not onelie to vnderstand the trueth in their mindes but also to feele it with their handes Of which trueth he hath so great assurance that he sweareth as deepelie as anie Christian man can doe not onelie that he doubteth nothing but also that he can neuer mistrust anie point of that faith in which he was new borne baptized How wel he performeth this large promise as also of such moderation as he wil vse in touching the inmous persons of his aduersaries the booke following will declare wherein if auricular confession be so sensi blie prooued out of the holie scriptures as he maketh vaunt it shal be I my selfe will ioine with him that if it were ten times as burt henous as it seemeth to be no Christian man ought wilfully to omit it in paine of eter nall damnation but if the scriptures of God will afford no commaundement for it and the moste auncient Catholike Church on earth neuer thought it necessarilie to be required I maie reasonablie require that such as thought it needles before this treatise was written when they see as much as can be said for it to be disprooued they will acknowledge that without tyranie to mens consciences it cannot be imposed That Christ did forgiue sinnes not onelie by proper power and nature as he was God but also by ministerie as he was a man and as he was a Priest and head of the Church and that vpon that ground the priests power in remitting sinnes in the Church doth stand THE FIRST CHAP. ALLEN CHrist Iesus the Sonne of the liuing God being euerlastinglie of the same substance power and nature that his Father and the holie Ghost be of as being equall and one God with them both worketh mightelie all thinges in heauen and in eartb iointlie with them both and therefore by excellencie of power propertie of nature and by full and perfect dominion ouer his owne creature he remitteth mans sinnos by the same soueraingne right that they do Who being thus in all excellencie equall with God hath notwithstanding vouchsafed of his singular bountifullnes ioined with maruelous humilitis to abase him-selfe to the receiuing of our nature in which now he hath wrought the same thinges in earth by seruice sute and commission which before he onelie did by might and maiestie of his owne power procure Euen the selfe same God that by will and commaundement might most iustly both haue punished and pardoned whome he list of loue and wisdome infinite continuing alwaies in like excellencie as before became the minister of our reconcilement to God In which state he offereth sacrifice as a Priest for sinne he vseth sacramentes for the remission of sinne he praied to God his Father for the sinnefull he is made the head of the Church the Gouernour of the Church and the iudge of the Church All which functions perteine to our Sauiour in respect and consideration of his humane nature according vnto which power is giuen him of the Father thorugh the holie Ghost to practise the same FVLKE THat the ignorant be not ouertaken with the subtiltie of this Sophister which to deriue his popish absolution from the perso of our sauiour Christ plaieth on while the Nestorian another while the Eutichian It shal be good for them to remember what they are taught in their Creed concerning the person of Christ which is verie God and verie man consisting of two moste diuers natures so vnited into one person as they maie neither be deuided nor confounded without horrible blasphemie In which person ech nature so retaineth the essentiall proprieties of it selfe vnconfounded or destroied that he is but one person our Lord and sauiour Iesus Christ. Whereupon it followeth that some actions arepeculiar to his godhead some proper to his manhood and some proceeding iointlie from him as he is God and man As God he worketh euen as his Father he knoweth the th oughts of mens heartes he knoweth the last daie whereof he is ignorant as man Againe that he did eate drinke sleepe sorrow die it was proper to his humanitie Finallie that he preached the Gospell wrought miracles offered sacrifice for our sinnes rose againe c. and such like thinges he did as the Mediatour God and man And although by reason of the vnitie of the person that is often spoken of the whole person which is peculiar to either nature or of God which is proper to man or of man which is proper to God yet to preserue the essentiall properties of ech nature we must wiselie distinguish that which is proper vnto the diuinitie from that which is proper vnto the humanitie whereof we see Master Allen hath small regard while he affirmeth that all these functions of Christ whereby he offereth sacrifice as a Priest vseth sacramentes praied to God is made the head of the Church the gouernour of the Church and the iudge of the Church pertaine vnto him in respect and consideration of his humane nature For of the sacrifice ofhim-selfe the Apostle expresselie affirmeth that it was made by his eternall spirit which being offered by an inferior nature could not haue beene acceptable vnto God Heb. 9. 14. Also that Christ God and man is the head of the Church and aduanced in his humanitie to be iudge of the worlde it is in respect and consideration ofhis godhead vnto which his humanitie is vnited For as he is the image of the inuisible God by whome all thinges are created in heauen and earth he is the head of his bodie the Church Col. 1. 15. c. And the Apostle Phil. 2. 10. shewing his exaltation from the base shape of a Seruant to be the most honorable iudge of the world vsing the words of the Prophet Esaie cap. 45. in which God challengeth the iudgement to him selfe sheweth plainelie that Christ hath this honour in respect
in stead of which word properlie you craftelie conueigh in the worde truelie so your wholl syllogisme is a paralogisme and may lawfully be denied Notwithstanding your conclusion as it is we do graunt that the Apostles do rightlie and truely remit sinnes by their ministery in the holie ghost but as it should be inferred vpon your premises we denie it which cannot be gathered but vpon a false Maior Whatsoeuer the holie ghost may doe properlie in remitting sinnes the Apostles may do by ministerie as properlie As for the comfort of mans life taken away by denying sinnes to be properlie forgiuen by Priestes is a fond cauill and meere slaunder For we acknowledge it a singular comfort of mans life that God hath appointed men by their ministerie to assure vs of his fauour and reconciliation in the remission of oursins And we beleeue with Saint Augustine that sinnes are forgiuen in Gods Church vpon earth acknowledgeing the bountefullnes of God in so mightie a worke anathematizing and detesting the Nouatians and all other heretikes that obstinatelie and willfullie mainteine the contrarie The power to remit sinnes is further prooued to be giuen to the Apostles by these wordes of Christ Whose sinnes you do forgiue c. by the Doctors exposition of the same and by conference of other wordes of scripture of the like sense THE FOVRTH CHAP. ALLEN HOw the priestes of Christes Church haue defended this right and calling for remission of sinnes as wel by the commission that Christ first receiued of his father and afterward bestowed vpon them as by the assured receiuing of the spi rit of god from Christes blessed breath to the same and purpose I haue hitherto declared at large Now the third part of the place before alledged out of S. Iohns gospel concerneth the words of Christes promis and warrant made vnto his Apostles out of which wordes distinctly vttered we must see what force may be further added vnto our Catholike assertion for the pristes autho rity to remit and retaine sinnes And surely if none of the former wordes of commission nor any other mean or mention had beene made of the holy ghostes assistaunce herein these onlie woordes vpon the credit that faithful men owe to Christ had bin sufficient to haue assured the world of the authoritie of priesthood of the wholl cause that now is called in controuersie For what can be said either of god or man more properlie or more playnlie then this whose sinnes you shal forgiue they be forgiuen whose sinnes you shal retaine they be retained I must needes heree complaine of these vnfaithful and vnhappie times that in the continuall lothsome bragges of the scripture and Gods word in perpetuall tossing and tumbling of the booke of the Bible in endlesse contention and disputation of most high mysteries in them contained haue wholie conuerted the cleerest and onely vndoubted meaning of such places specially as moste touch the verie life and saluation of all mankinde and which be of all other thinges in termes of scripture most open and euident sull foolishlie and vnlearnedlie haue both the simple sort handled Gods word as in such grosse ignorance of al thinges they needes must and their new procured Masters also in not much more knowledge and farre passing pride can not otherwise do but whilest they plaie them selues in things of smaler importance they are to be laughed at rather then lamented but if the deuil driue them farther as he lightlie doth wherere he se quietlie possesseth and cause them to dallie and delude the places of scripture that principally concerne the state and saluation of vs al then we must with al force resist lest we leese the fruite and good of our Christianitie What can be of higher importance in the world or touch our soules and saluation so neere as the holie sacraments of Christ Church by which grace and mercy through gods appointment be procured yet these blessed fountains especiallie euen these waters springing euerlastingly to our life and comfort haue these men most infected FVLKE You fare as though we denied all power of remitting or retaining of sinnes whereas we do moste gladlie imbrace all such power as Christ hath giuen vs which we must so take as it be not dishonourable to the godhead that man should exercise that which is proper to God him-selfe The power therefore we graunt but what manner of power this is we must inquire whether an absolute power for priests at their pleasure as you speake afterward in this Chapter to forgiue sinnes properlie or a power to declare the same to be forgiuen according to the pleasure of God to them that repent and beleeue the Gospell and also whether this power is to be exercised by preaching the Ghospel or by auricular confession You spend manie words therefore in vaine to prooue the power and authoritie whereof we stand in no controuersie with you but what manner of power this is and by what meanes it is to be exercised As for the lothsome bragges of the scripture and Gods word in perpetuall tossing and tumbling of the bookes of the Bible doe argue that you complaine of sauoreth not of the spirit of Christ which willeth the scriptures to be searched as those which beare witnes of him To glory in the truth of Gods word contained in his holie scriptures is no vaine bragging but such as Christians ought moste of all to delight in The rest of your railing I passe ouer as vnworthie anie answere when whatsoeuer you prate in generall shal be founde false in speciall when you come to prooue the particulers ALLEN In the institution of Sacraments Christs wordes were euer plaine without colour or figure as wordes that worke with singular efficacie grace and vertue and therewith giue to the ministers iust authoritie for the execution of Christes meaning which could not be done in figuratiue speaches and parables without infinit error Did God speake parables when he instituted the solemnitie of so manie sacrifices in the olde lawe when he signified vnto Moses and Aaron euerie seuerall sorte of beast or creature with their sexe kind all the ceremonie thereunto belonging Did he speake parables when the sacrament of the lambe was to be instituted Did he speake by figure to Abraham when he commaunded him to circumcise the male of euerie of his people Did he speake by figure when he instituted the Sabbath Did he to be breefe euer in the olde lawe speake one thing and meane another when anie externall worke by the charge of his worde was to be practized for euer amongest the people In common speach in prophecying in preaching in similitudes in examples vttered for the declaration of manie thinges and for grace and varietie of talke to stirre vp mans industrie in searching the secretes of the trueth there figures of all sortes be vsed but where by externall wordes and actions force of inward grace must be procured or perpetuall vsages in the Church are
the least they disdaine to submit themselues to the Priests whom God hath giuen power vnto to discearne the cleane from the vncleane But I would thou shouldest not beguile thy selfe by false perswasion or some respect of shame that thou hast to confesse vnto the priest who is Gods Vicare For I tell thee thou must vnder his iudgement whome God doth not disdaine to constitute his Vicegerent But this Doctour made a wholl worke of penance and the waies of recouerie of Christian mans fall after Baptisme by the Priests iudgement and sacrament of Confession Of the which bookes if any man list doubt yet let him be assured that they be both auncient Catholike learned and agreeable to the doctrine of Saint Augustines daies whosoeuer made them And our cause is so much more holpen because not onelie Saint Austine who is plaine in these matters vpon Saint Matthwes Gospel and els where as it is declared alreadie but also other of great antiquitie confirme the same and plainly confound the pride of our daies in which men are not somuch ashamed of their sinnes as they be disdainefull to confesse their sinnes vnto a poore priest though he iustlie accupie the verie iudgement seat of God FVLKE You doe wiselie to deuorce vpon his meaning when you haue not his wordes to warrant you For so you maie blinde the eyes of the ignorant to beleeue that you haue som farther intelligence of meaning then can appeare euen by the words that you haue cited out of him For the 〈◊〉 of condemnation is not by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 against them which are ashamed to confes their faults to men if they amend them before god but against them that flie the knowledge and iudgement of men and yet doe not repent before God And therefore he saith si ea confiteri aut emendare noluerirt if they will not confesse them or amende them and againe si in maio suo permanserint if they shall continue in their euill But if they will amend their faultes and not continue in sinne he dare promise them forgiuenes and life euerlasting as is declared in the last section But now you charge vs with Saint Agustines authoritie and yet you will not abide by it that it is Saint Augastines authoritie wherein you deale more sincerely then Papists are commonlie wont to doe to acknowledge that these bookes you vouch are not admitted for Saint Augustines authoritie Among so many great and large volumes as are certeinlie knowne and generally receiued to be of Saint Augustines writing where you can finde nothing but these bookes of vncerteine credit to mainteine the necessitie of auricular confession the indifferent reader may well gather how litle ground your purpose cā finde in that age of S. Austins For that you haue declared alreadie out of S. Austine vpon S. Matthewes Gospel ells where how plaine it is for these matters let the reader iudge by that I haue answered in those seuerall places But as touching the bookes de visitatione 〈◊〉 being one of the two treatises that you cite as it is certaine that it was not of S. Austines writing so hath it no similitude with the doctrine of his time or with the stile of anie learned or auncient father The Censure of Erasmus vpon these bookes is this Sermo locutulei nec docti nec diserti Quid habuerunt vel frontis vel mentis qui talia scripta nobis obtruserunt nomine Augustini c. These bookes are the speach of a pratler neither learned nor eloquent What shame or wit had they which haue thrust vpon vs such writings vnder the name of S. Augustine Yet you dare assure vs that they be auncient Catholike learned and agreeable to the doctrine of Saint Augustines daies But the reasons of your assurance you spare to shewe giuing vs nothing but your bare word which is sufficient among vnlearned and sottish Papists whose ignorance you knewe would accept whatsoeuer you brought and therefore were carles what all the learned of the contrarie parte might iudge of your impudent and shameles assertions Concerning the other whole worke of penance which you affirme that this doctour made although it were graunted that Saint Augustine was author of that worke of repentance as it shall be easilie graunted that if not Saint Augustine yet some other auncient and learned father was the writer of them neuertheles there is nothing in them by which you are able to prooue the matter in controuersie namelie the necessitie of confession of all mortall sinnes to a Priest And therefore albeit you set a good face vpon the matter you haue neuer a sentence to set downe out of those bookes that is able to giue but onely a glosse or colour to your Popish confession For if you had you woulde not haue beene silent in setting forth the sentence of another beside Saint Augustine as you saie and as I thinke of great antiquitie who against them that be impenitent and neither acknowledge their sinnes vnfainedlie before God nor studie to amend and reforme their wicked life writeth vehementlie shewing three kindes of repentance one before baptisme in them that are of yeares another after baptisme which is dailie sorowing for our infirmities in saying the Lordes prayer the third of heinous and notorious sinnes offensiue to the Church of them that are excommunicated and are not to be receiued without open confession and signes of humilitie But the necessitie of confessing all thinges to a poore priest iustlie occupying the verie iudgement seate of God there is no word in either of those two bookes De medicina poenitentiae de vtilitate poenitentiae ALLEN And Saint Ambrose these mens auncient somewhat did knowe this practise so well and allow it that he did sit in his owne person on confession as Paulinus doth recorde whose behauiour in that diuine office that all Priestes maie perceiue and all the people note I will report Quotie scunque illi aliquis ob percipiendam poenitentiam lapsus suos confessus esset it a flebat vt ilium flere compellerat Causas autem criminum quas illi confitebaniur nulli nisi Domino soli apud quens intercedebat loquebatur bonum relinquens exemplum posteris sacerdotibus vt intercessores apud Deum sin magis quà m accusatores apud homines That is to saie So often as anie man came vnto him to confesse his faultes and receiue penance he so wept that he made the Penitent to weepe also But the faults themselues which they confessed he vttered to no man but to God alone to whome for their sinnes he made sute leauing a blessed example to all Priestes of the posteritie to account themselues rather as intercessours to God for sinnes then accusers of men before the worlde for their sinne This saieth Paulinus of Saint Ambrose whereby at once we see the iudgement of them both for our matter FVLKE The iudgement of Saint Ambrose concerning the necessitie of popish thrift or auricular confession we haue
the head of the house But if he will saie this other man was no frier then he must shewe what he was whoe was the testator what fraude Luther and his Prior vsed to deceiue him and bring good proofe thereof or els who is bound to beleeue him But to goe forward other estate or degree or Apostleshippe he knoweth not that Luther had anie what then was not this sufficient calling for him that was a Doctor of the Popish Church to preach against the abuses and errors thereof and when his doctrine and conclusions were vndoubtedly agreeable to the holie scriptures might he not iustlie affirme that they were from heauen And that he was sent from heauen to teach the Germanes the trueth of the Gospell which of long time had beene hidden from them For that he was their first Apostle or that before his daies they neuer had any true religion or Christian doctrine he neuer said Neither did he make more account of himselfe then of Saint Augustine and all other Fathers of the Church although in the booke quoted by Frarine he preferreth that doctrine which is agreeable to the holie scriptures before the iudgement of Augustine and all men that euer were As for the familiar conference and talke with the Deuill which Frarine affirmeth that he reporieth of himselfe And that Cocleus and al his enemies doe gnaw so much vpon to prooue that he was set on by the Deuil to gainesaie the masse Is nothing but a ridiculous cauill For Luther speaketh of a spirituall conflict that he had with Sathan for saying masse so long which at length he acknowledged to be blasphemous against the death of Christ. Not of any bodelie appeerance of the Deuill or familiar talke with him as the malice of the Papists doe expound him Next Luther our Orator will examine Caluins vocation Caluine saith he was borne at Nouiodunum in Picardie What of that He was banished from his countrie for his wicked behauiour That is false For he liued in his countrie in good credit both of learning and honestie till the crueltie of the Papists caused him to seeke the libertie and profession of religion abroad which he could not haue at home That he was the veriest vnthrist naughtiest varlet of all his companions when he was in his countrie is an impudent slaunder for at Orleans he red the lawe lecture oftentimes in the place of Petrus Stella the publike reader and was so well accounted both for his learning and vertue that the degree of Doctorship in that facultie with full consent of all the teachers was offered him without anie expences as one that had verie well deserued of the vniuersitie Afterward at Paris he set forth that notable commentary of his of Seneca de Clementia He was of great familiaritie with Nicolaus Copus Rector of the vniuersitie of Paris and in good credit with the Queene of Nauarre sister vnto King Frauncis He had conference with Iacobus Faber Stapulensis in Aquitanes and after he had set forth that worthie booke of his called Psychopanuchia at Orleans against them which taught that the soules departed doe sleepe vntill the resurrection without sense of good or euill he came to the Citie of Basill This course of his life as it is written in his storie with much more to this effect doth witnes that he was euen from his youth a man indued with singuler modestie temperance and godlines whatsoeuer his aduersaries without all proofe or shewe of truth are not ashamed to inuent and brute against him When he was at Basill he did not hide his head as the slaunderer saieth but desired in deed to be priuate that he might better applie his studies and especiallie the Hebrew tongue But such was his excellencie that he could not be hid from the principall learned men of that vniuersitie and so litle was he hid that there he first set forth his Institution dedicated to King Frauncis Our declaimer saith that from Basile he passed to Strasburg and there began to shew his head and preach to the Runnagats But that is false for from Basill he went into Italie to visit the Duchesse of Ferrara from whence he returned into Fraunce where hauing set all his affaires in order he brought away his onely brother AntonieCaluine intending to settle him selfe either at Basill or at Strasburg But al other passages being stopt he was forced to trauaile thorough Sauoye and comming to Geneua onely to visite Farellus and Viretus by whose zealous earnest labours Popery being banished and the Church there reformed he was staied by the terrible obtestation of Farellus and by the Presbyterie and Magistrates chosen to be a teacher and intepreter of the Scriptures in that Church But that he put out the deputie of the citie expelled the Bishops and Popish cleargie reigned there like a conquerour by the law of ireason and force of armes as Frarine saieth it is a moste impudent lie though an hundred Lindanes had sworne that it was true For the Bishoppe with his Popish cleargie was departed out of the citie and the Religion reformed by publike authoritie receiued long time before Caluines first arriuall thether Of like trueth it is that Beza in his baudie and filthie epigrames as it pleaseth Frarine to call them farre passeth the wanton Pagan Poetes Martiall and Tibullus For in the moste licentious of these epigrames first condemned by Beza himselfe there is not one word of obscenitie although they were made in a fained argument after the immitation of those Poets And if they had bin as full of baudie tearmes and matters as Martiall himselfe Yet so long as Beza cōtinued in popery where they were freely printed selde they were catholike enough What should I speake saith he of Bernardinus Ochinus the preacher of Polygamie Verelie there is no cause why he should speake of him seeing both the man and the doctrine are detested in our Churches and by our writings confuted He nameth also Bernard Rotman and Iohn of Leyd authors of the Anabaptisticall sedition at Monster as though wee had any thing to doe with them Yes saith he they conquered the field against the Lutheranes by pretence of scripture onelie as Rotman before vanquished the Papists The storie is written who list to reade wherein may be found they vsed other craftes beside force of armes then pretence of scripture onelie to compasse their diuelish attempts And what if they had vsed the pretence of scripture onelie as the diuel did in tempting our sauiour Christ was the scripture onelie of lesse force to confute their false pretence then when it was vsed by our Sauiour Christ against the Deuill He telleth vs of Hosiander reprooued of vs for heresie of Carolostadius who thorough folly madnes became a ploughnian The names also of Peter Martyr Illiricus Musculus Farellus Viretus and Bucer a gainst whom he hath nothing to say besides I know not what Marote Malote And that these should vsurpe
of their handes as euen at this present that vile Antichrist ceaseth not to practise against the moste lawfull and Christian Queene of England But by what scriptures saith Frarine did you conspire at Geneua like villaines traitorous to murther king Frauncis and the scottish Queene his wife his mother brethren and all the nobles and Catholike osficers of Fraunce Surelie I know not what conspiracy he meaneth I remember not that I haue hard of anie in the time of Frauncis but that wherof ensued the tumult of Amboyse neuer allowed at Geneua as the letters of Caluine to his friendes doe testifie nor heard of vntill it was on foote and suppressed The beginning where of was at Nantes in Britanie The purpose was to remooue the Guisians from gouernment The articles of which diuers were these That nothing should be done against the King the Princes of his blood and the state of the realme That their dignitie and the liberty of their country should be defended as much as might be frō the violence of straungers But if you aske Frarine how he knoweth all this he answereth by a book set out in print vnder the kings priuiledge intituled Defence Reg Relig. As though all must needes be as true as the Gospell which is printed with priuiledge where it were more reason that he should giue credit to the kings owne edict of pacificatiō signed with his hand printed with priuiledge and proclamied with sound of trumpet in all cities of his realme in which he cleareth the princes and them that tooke armes for his libertie against the Guisians and the mantainance of the edict of Iaunarie of all crime of treason and sedition and acknowledgeth that they did all thinges in his seruice and to his honour But Frarine being at Orleans in the time of that warre did see with his eies a seditious sibell printed in the name of all Hugonites wherein was nothing but impudent bouldnes threatning and weason Neuerthelesse he confesseth that this libell was not allowed of the Prince and states when he saieth the printer was kept and feasted a few daies with the officers of that towne within their houser instead of a prison Belike the libell was not so harnous as Frarire affirmeth else it is not to be thought but that the printer should haue had greater punishment Cōcerning Goodmans booke being of the same argument and ume with that of Knoxe before mentioned shall need no other answer then I set downe before But a greater accusation is behinde When the Emperour Charles was entangled at Oenipont the great Turk was requested to make warre in defence of there Gospell and the Bassa of Bude to set vpon his brother Ferdinande in Hungarie Who affirmeth this Staphilus the runnegate which neuer lied or rather which seldome spake the truth tush saith Frarine the letters of that conspiracie were taken their treason by no coloure can be cloked Whose letters Frarine by whome were they taken by whom were they sent to whome were they directed If you answere nothing we saie it is as easie for you or Staphilus to faine the taking of letters as the conspiracie with the Turk The next complaint is of abolishing the laws of the Imperial chamber that all things may be decided with fire sword as Brunus saith which is an impudent slaunder For Germanie was neuer in greater peace quieines since the reformatiō of the vnreasonable customes of that court more then thirtie yeares agoe As for the abro gating of the ciuill lawes and making of a new policie of their owne deuise which he saith appeareth by manie bookes libelles is a foolish slaunder not worthie of any answer seeing he nameth no author of those bookes by which it might appeare that the Protestants had such fantastical coies in their heades Vnto the last place he reserued the weightiest matter of all and that is their contempt of the councell of Trent in railing at all the Prelates Princes in refusing to come thether vnder sufficient safe conduct As for Princes which are no part of the councel it is false that they contemned them but Antichrist and his rable of Idolatrous Priestes and prelates deserue a worse thing then contempt that they refuse to come to the Chapter of Trent among manie reasons they haue two most euident to defend thē For the tragedie of Constance councell doth admonish them that no safe conduct can be sufficient among papistes And where he which is chiefly accused of heresy Idolatry wil be the only iudge of al cōtrouersies what should it auaill them to be heard in such a councell in which is an hundreth times lesse equitie then was shewed in anie hereticall councell of Arrianes Nestorianes Eutichianes or anie other auncient heretikes And now he is come to the third and last section of his circle to declare how cruellie they haue behaued themselues in their wars what hurth ath come by them in which part after much vain babling general accusing of all faith religion iustice chastitie deuotion learning nurture goodnes godlines banishea from many places persons planting of Turkish hethenish Iewish vnsensible blindnes at last he touch eth particulares that Lu ther by that verse of his Host is erā 〈◊〉 moriens tua mors ero Papa Thine enimie I was liuing and thy death O Pope I wil be dying attempted the vtter ouerthrow both of the spiritualtie and of the Empire by what reason I know not for I see no consequence but as the rising of the Pope was by the decaie of the Empire so the falling of the pope whose enimy Luther threatned to be quick and dead would be the establishing and aduancement of the Empire After this he reckoneth the expences trauayles and care of minde that Charles the fifth was put vnto by fighting against them For answere whereof it maie be said that Charles the fift with more gaine les labour thought of minde first and last might haue suffered them to inioie their religion according to the libertie of Germanie and not to haue made such cruell warre vpon them for no iust cause as he did Further our Orator czieth out how manie cities castler Abbies Hospitalles schooles colledges Pallaces gentelmens houses and cloisters hath this gospelish rebellion quite ouerthrowen and sacked All which damages who seeth not are to to be ascribed to their fault who were authores of vniust warres and not of the Protestants whoe were either defenders of their liberty or reuengers of intollerable iniarie It is a pleasant iest with Frarine when he saith their gospel is both negatiue destructiue of al goodnes As if it were not as easy for vs to say that papistrie is both affirmatiue extructtiue of al wickednes God be thanked we affirme al that the holy scripture affirmeth the rest we are bolde to denie we are willing to build both spiritually and bodilie whatsoeuer appertaineth to the glorie of God and the pro
purpose teaching onelie that we are consecrated or made perfect by baptisme which is true in respect of sanctification and remission of sinnes but prooueth not that concupiscence which you confesse to be an euil thing remaining in the regenerate is chaunged in nature to be no sinne although it be forgiuen and shall not be imputed to the elect For the wrong quoting of Augustine do 〈◊〉 concupiscent You were best quarrell with your printer for Master Charke hath instlie charged your booke with error in the first edition whereunto he answered which you will not vnderstand but charge him with ignorance quarreling and impudencie whereas your quotation was twise lib. de nupt concupiscent And not as you saie now lib. 1. de nupt concupiscent You with that you were with Master Charke to see if he would blush at his ignorance by you discouered and cal backe your wish for feare of purseuants But I looke not at all that your brasen face should blush either at so small a fault or at so false a defense thereof which are not ashamed of a great number of more wrong and impudent quotationes then that is for which though no purseuantes shall attach you yet the reproch of them shall pursue you to the vtter confusion of your proude and arrogant Censure and more impudent and vnlearned defense Finallie Ambrose lib. 1. de voc gent. c. 5. hath not one worde to prooue that concupiscence in the regenerate is no sinne of it selfe But where Master Charke rehearseth not the verie wordes but the meaning of Saint Augustine expounding him-selfe in what sense he saith that concupiscence is not sinne you set abroad all the sailes of your rayling and venemous tongue and penne against him Saint Augustines words are dimitti concupiscentiam carnis in baptismo non vt non sit sed vt in peccatum non imputetur Quamuis autem reatu suo iam soluto manet tamen donec sanetur omnis infirmitas nostra proficiente renouatione interioris hominis de die in diem cúm exterior induerit incorruptionem non enim substantialiter manet sicut aliquod corpus aut spiritus sed affectio est quaedam malae qualitatis sicut languor Concupiscence of the flesh is remitted in baptisme not so that it is not but so that it is not imputed to sinne And albeit the guilt thereof be loosed yet it remaineth vntil al our infirmitie behealed the renuing of the inward man profiting from daie to daie when the outward man shall haue put on incorruption for it remaineth not substantiallie as a bodie or a spirit but it is a certaine affection of euill qualitic as a sickenes These words declare that concupiscence being an affection of euill qualitie which is as much to saie as sinne remaning in the regenerate although it be not imputed to them as sin for that if they 〈◊〉 against it it shall not preuaill against them to condemne them A sinne not imputed is a sinne of his owne nature The sinnes of Gods elect are not imputed to them they are forgiuen the guilt is taken awaie they are washed awaie in the blood of Christ they are as white as wooll and as snowe yet of their owne nature they are foule abhominable and detestable transgressions of Gods lawe so is concupiscence against the lawe thou shalt not lust as Augustine often confesseth therefore of it selfe sinne euen in the regenerate to whome it is remitted The similutude of a sickenes also whereunto Augustine doth often compare it sheweth the same For a sicknes if it be not healed either by strength of nature preuailing or by medicine doth either cause death or remaineth as long as life so concupiscence of itselfe would kill if the medicines of Christs redemption did not ouercome the malice of it and in the ende take awaie the disease from the rootes But for a cleerer proofe Master Charke alledgeth that Saint Augustine in an other place saith plainlie it is sinne You answer that he saith onelie of concupiscence in generall that it is sinne and not of concupiscence in the regenerate But that Saint Augustine speaketh of concupiscence in the regenerate it is manifest by this reason for that he saith concupiscence of the flesh against which the good spirit lustesh which is onelie in the regenerate As he him selfe saith in an other place by you quoted Non enim rectè cuiusquam spiritus concupisceret aduersue carnem suam nisi habitaret in illo spiritus Christi For no mans spirit should rightlie lust against his fiesh except the spirit of Christ did dwell in him But that concupiscence without consent is properlie no sinne you saie Saint Augustine prooneth by the wordes of Paule him-selfe who calleth it sinne in the chapter last remembred but that is false he only retaineth his vsuall acception of the word sinne for actualsin as Saint Iames doth whose termes of conception and bringing forth also he vseth yet he concludeth that concupiscence without consent is euill is to be chastised to be brideled to be fought against to be ouercome which prooueth sufficientlie that it is sinne though not actuall sinne yet properlie sinne from which we can not be deliuered but by the grace of Christ sinne of another kinde sinne in another degree called sinnne in the scripture and therefore without controuersie except we will trifle in vaine contention of termes and childish sophismes where the matter is plaine sinne in deede and properlie which of his owne nature deserueth death but that it is purged by the blood of Christ as all other sinnes of what sort or degree soeuer they be in those that are saued That Saint Augustine vseth other whiles the termes of veniallie and mortallie when he speaketh of sinning it can not defend your distinction wherebie you holde that there be some sinnes so smale as of their owne nasure they deserue not damnation contrarie to the scripture that saith generallie the reward of sinne is death Whereas Saint Augustine meaneth onelie degrees of sinnes whereof some are lesse some are hainous yet all deserue death For Saint Augustine must be vnderstood according to the scripture but the scripture must not be racked to agree with Saint Augustine Hitherto concerning the doctrine of the Iesuites that concupiscence in the regenerate without consent is not sinne Against this doctrine Gotuisus opposeth the wordes of our Sauiour Christ Mat. 5. 28. whosoeuer shall see a woman to lust after her he hath alreadie committed adulterie with her in his heart which text you confirme as you said before to be alledged ignorantlie and against him-selfe because here is a manifest consent of the heart expressed to make concupiscence adulterie And for that purpose you cite Saint Augustine and to all this you aske what sir William replyeth and answer your selfe Surelie nothing but maketh a long idle speake of praedicatum and subiectum as pertinent to the matter as Charing crosse to Billings gate If William Charkes
booke might be had no where but in your report you would make miserable matter of it But they that list to see how impudentlie you lie shall finde in his booke first that he confesseth that the effect of concupiscence which is adulterie by consent is a breach of the 7. commaundement For which he doth not alledge the place as you misconster him Secondlie that Christ vseth a word which in greeke is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth to beholde that is more then to see or to vse the sense of sight which beholding with concupiscence alone he denieth to be sinne in the first degree that with consent of heart is made sinne in so high a degree as adulterie And Augustine him selfe in the place by you cited maketh three degrees to actuall sinne suggestion delectation and consent The first he compareth to the deuills temptation which when it was without man was not sinne in man but now that euerie man is tempted of his owne concupiscence how can you say it is not sinne in man as it was in the deuill Thirdlie the long speake of subeictum praedicatum that Master Charke maketh is comprehended in lesse then three lines And last of all whereas you saie that to quit the Lord moste carefully from sinne he alledgeeth Saint Iames you peruert and that wilfullie both his saying and his meaning and scoffe at him in your doggs eloquence as you are accustomed But he saith expresselie that Saint Iames doth carefullie quitte the Lord from being a sinfull cause of sinne when he turneth vpon man the whole worke and all the blame of sinne from the first sinne of tempting to the ripe and full birth thereof saying that a man is tempted of his owne lust and therewith drawne away and as it were with a bait entised Which things saith Master Charke can not be in bare concupiscence except it were sinne and a sinfull cause of sinne And in deede if euery thing conceaue and bring forth a creature of the same kinde that the damme is of what should the mother of sinne be but sinne Concupiscence conceiueth and bringeth forth sinne therefore it is sinne it selfe But Caluine is condemned of your Church as you affirme for this impietie that he maketh God author of sinne But Caluine appealeth from your Church to the Catholike Church of Christ before whome let vs see what you canne alledge to iustifie this horrible crime You aske if he doth not holde that God is the author of sinne in diuerse places of his works namelie lib. 1. Inst. cap. 8. 17. 18 I answer no but directlie maintaineth the contradiction of that blasphemous slaunder namelie that God is not the author of sinne answering all obiections that are made to the contrarie both by authoritie of scriptures and by testimonie of the fathers You demaund further doth he not condemne Saint Augustine by name for holding the contrarie lib. 2. Inst. c. 4 I answer as before noe Onelie he misliketh Saint Augustine in one place where he saith that induration and excecation pertaine not to the working of God but to his foreknowledge where the scripture expresselie saith God doth harden God doth blinde not as an euill author but as a iust punisher as Augustine els where confesseth for which he is cited cont Iul. lib. 5. where he prooueth at large that some sinnes are not onelie of Gods permission or patience but of his power that former sinnes might so be punished What is this to make God the author of sinne Yet further you aske whether Peter Martyr his scholler do not holde the same in com lib. 1. Reg. cap. 2 And I answer as before that he neuer held that opinion but the contrarie that God is not the author of sinne as it is sinne al though no fact can be committed without his power in whome we liue mooue and haue our being But this is a common slaunder of vnlearned Papistes when they that be learned if they come to entreat of Gods power prouidence predestination reprobation c. can not speake more reuerentlie then Caluine Martyr and all other learned Protestants do write of those high mysteries of God The tenth section intituled Of the first motions of concuptscence THe Iesuites holde that the first motions of lust are without hurt of sinne Of this you thinke you haue said inough before because it dependeth wholie of that which goeth before Yet two places of Saint Augustine you adde and both fraudulentlie The former cont Iul. lib. 2. circa finem you cite thus We might be alwaie without sinne if we neuer did yeald consent to our concupiscence to sinne But Saint Augustines wordes are otherwise Quantum enim ad nos attinet sine peccato semper essemus donec saneretur hoc malum si ei nunquam consentiremus ad malum For as much as concerneth vs we should be alwaies without sinne vntill this euill were healed if we did neuer consent vnto it vnto euill He saieth not absolutlie we should be without sinne but as much as concerneth vs because that euill is in vs without our will or consent which maketh actuall sinne Otherwise not manie lines before he calleth it vitium mortuum a vice dead but yet to be buried that is throughlie healed and addeth further Quomodo igitur mortuum dicimus hoc peccatum in baptismo How then doe we saie that this sinne is dead in baptisme as this man also saith and how doe we confesse that it dwelleth in our members and worketh manie desires against our wills which we resist by not consenting as this man also confesseth but because it is dead in that guilt in which it held vs and till it be healed by perfection of buriall it rebelleth euen being dead Although now it is not called sinne after the same manner in which it maketh guiltie but because it is made by the guilt of the first man and because by rebelling it laboureth to drawe vs to guiltines except the grace of God doe helpe vs. This place of Saint Augustine shewteh that it is sinne and whie it is so called although it differ much from actuall sinne Againe when he saith it is dead vice in respect that it is remitted to the renegerate in baptisme yet it is as a stinking carcase of the enimy which vntill it be buried will infect by which it appeareth what a pestilent thing it is of it selfe though by grace it be ouercome and must be buried in vs till it be vtterlie abolished The other place lib. 2. de gratia cap. 40. you cut very short and vtter in these wordes Quibus sinon consentitur nullius peccati reatus contraehitur Vnto which nation if we giue no consent of heart no guilt of sinne is contracted by them But you conceale craftelie that he calleth these first motions vitious desires which is as much as we require and sheweth how the guilt is taken awaie namelie by remission of sinnes in baptisme His words are these Non