the dayes of Luther 1. Doctor White to begin first with him in his book intituled The Way to the true Church Digression 52. sheweth that the present Religion of the Romane Church was obserued and resisted in all ages as it came in and increased naming withall the persons that made resistance and the points wherein and the time when from fiftie yeares to fiftie throughout all ages since Christ compendiously obserued out of history for the satisfying of their error that so much conceit the antiquitie of Papistrie and thinke it was neuer controlled till Luthers time And Digression 48 Sect. 50. the said Doctor White setteth downe a briefe and direct answer to the Papists when they say we cannot assigne a visible company professing the same faith in euery point that we doe euer since Christ till now without interruption 2. Flacius Illyricus the second I named in his booke intituled Catalogus testim veritatis A Catalogue of the witnesses of the truth augmented twice by Simon Goulartius and by him the second time set out in one volume in a large Folio sheweth that the present rel gion of the Romane Church waâ— obserued and resisted in all ages as it came in and increased naming withall the persons that made the resistance and the points wherein and the time when from an hundred yeares to an hundred throughout all ages since Christ compendiously obserued out of history for the satisfying of their error that so much conceit the antiquitie of Papistrie and thinke it was neuer controlled till Luthers time 3. The third is Doctor Reinolds that light of Oxford in his fift Conclusion quinta Conclus in English ioyned to the end of his Conference with Hart but far more â—â—lly in his fift Latin Thesis quinta Thes of the last augmented Edition sheweth that the present Church of Rome is neither the holy Catholicke Church nor a sound member of the Catholicke Church that the present Religion of the Romane Church was obserued and resisted in all ages bringeth in abundantly proofes and testimonies out of the ancient Fathers Councels and records good Authors School-men the Papists owne writings c. in all the controuerted points betwixt the Protestants and Papists 4. The fourth is Amandus Polanus his Symphonia Catholica though named the last yet as admirable as the rest yea in one thing more admirable viz. in bringing in the ancient Fathers in all the controuerted points betwixt Protestants and Papists in all ages most fully E. You come to the point indeed and say more then euer I heard and I hope these your foure bookes wil make all this good that you haue named D. They will indeed most plentifully take them away with you and keepe them euen so long as you please E. I thanke you most heartily good Sir you bring me to a feast indeedâ— what varietie of daintie dishes haue you set before me D. God in Christ Iesus blesse them vnto you An Advertisement to the Reader concerning Polanus his Symphonia Catholica and Mr. Robert Cooke his booke concerning counterfet Fathers Polanus his Symphonia Catholica is written in common-place manner out of the ancient Fathers and other good Authors from the dayes of Christ and his Apostles to the times of Luther handling the principall controuerted points methodically betwixt the Protestants and the Papists written purposely to satisfie that demand of Papists Where was the Protestants religion before the times of Luther Oh that some good religious Scholler or other would translate it into English for the common profite of the Church of England against the insulting brags of Fisher and other Papists who say we had no religion before Luthers times that hee hatched it c. I wish likewise that M. Robert Cooke his Latin Treatise concerning counterfet Fathers was translated into English for the good of those who vnderstand not Latin Papists alledging counterfet Fathers so often FINIS
Councell to be matters of faith if you doe you can neuer performe what you haue promised I desired you therefore M. Fisher to expresse without ambiguitie the termes of this question whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages What you meane by Church what by Protestants what by visible I will deliuer my opinion in defining a Protestant Church The Protestant Church is a societie of men professing the faith expressed in the Canonicall Scriptures acknowledged to be such in the Primitiue Church comprised in the Apostles Creede explained in the other two Creedes of Nice Athanasius Ministring the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper by men of lawfull Ordination and calling Such a societie as this was in all ages Ergo. The Protestant Church was in all ages I desire you also to distinguish betweene matters of Discipline Doctrine Secondly to distinguish betweene 1. Doctrine Accessorie And 2. Doctrin Fundamentall Matter of faith consisteth not in Discipline but Doctrine and that Doctrine not accessorie but fundamentall By this distinction I meane the same which Aquinas doth by Res fidei 1. Per Se. 2. Per Accidens I distinguish betweene 1. Affirmation And 2. Negation In those Articles of our English Church our negation is partly a trauersing partly a condemning of your nouelties and additions and therefore no part of our faith for no man would deny his owne faith In all these I defend the Negatiue and so it doth belong to you to proue the affirmatiue Which when you shall do by testimony of writers in all ages I will yeeld to you For you prouing the affirmatiue the negatiue will fall of it selfe As for example the first instance of negation in our Articles is no part of the sixt Article concerning those Bookes of Esdras Tobie Iudith c which we receiue not for Canonicall you doe the proofe is on your side What I require of you I wil performe on our side whatsoeuer is affirmatiue in our Articles I will maintaine to be affirmed and taught in all ages as the 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Articles the affirmatiue part of the 6. 7. 8 and so in the rest or I will yeeld vnto you giue me instance with affirmation of our Articles you deny and I will proue it in all ages and I desire you to set downe withall which of our affirmatiue Articles you receiue and whether we agree in the Articles of the Creede or not I will do the like by you and giue you an instance in your affirmatiues shew me who in euery age did receiue the Bookes of Esdras Machabies Tobit Iudeth c. for Canonicall in the 1. 2. 3. 4 centure of yeares this is one of the first points of your Tridentiue faith I desire you also M. Fisher for the avoyding of confusion to deliuer your opinion whether all the affirmatiue Doctrines of the Councell of Trent are matters of faith Per se fundamentall and necessarie to be held for saluation Fide explicata I speake de adubtis quibus facultas datur discendi And I do confesse that none of your side or ours haue giuen me â—ull satisfaction in this point which are Res fidei per se I therefore propose this M. Fisher as desirous to learne and to lay a foundation for further proceeding in this point of the visible Church Neither will I be sparing to deliuer my opinion with submission to better men and better leasure of my owne hauing bin these 6 moneths far from my Bookes and farther from leasure or repose to study I doe not thinke that all the affirmatiue Doctrines contained in our Articles are Res fidei per se fundamentall necessarie to saluation I therefore distinguish between Dogmata 1. Scholae these denied worke a priuat dissention 2. Ecclesiae these work an externall seperatioÌ„ from the Church 3. Fidei These denied worke an eternall damnation By Ecclesiae I meane not the essentiall Church but representatiue whether generall nationall or prouinciall That it is onely an error in the latter which is damnable not in the first and second vnlesse it be with obstinacy I will giue you instance as well as I can being without my Bookes Consubstantiation was a Schoole tenent Anno 1100 not a Church tenent Transubstantiation was a Church tenent after the yeare 1200. 1. Ecclesiae Romanae but the reall presence vnderstanding thereby not a bodily presence but a true relation a Sacramentall obligation and spirituall exhibition of his body is Res fidei a point of faith Or thus Transubstantiation was a Schoole tenent Anno 1100 a Church tenent Anno 1215 defined by Innocentius 3 in concil Latera but no point of faith because the bodie of religion or points of faith are without addition As Lyrinensis inuitetur animarum religio rationem corporum quae quotparuilorum membra tot virorum And as Aquinas saith The Articles of faith do grow quoad Explicationem Non Quod ad substantiam That which was no point of faith for the first 1200 yeares could be none afterwards vt supra Vincentius Lerinensis Aquinas But transubstantiation was no point of faith before the yeare 1200 Scotus Ergo transubstantiation is no point of faith If I doe not cite the words of Scotus aright impute it to my want of bookes for I haue none at this time yet I would lay the foundation of a friendly conference without trickes ambiguitie or bitternes I desire you also to obserue in the citing of the Fathers to alledge nothing for your opinion but what that Father hath held written and taught apertè frequenter perseueranter or at least that his words be plaine and his opinion such as that he hath not after recanted or crossed in his later workes I thinke it reasonable also that if I will iustifie the faith which is publikely professed and recessitated by our Church that I produce not onely some particular men deliuering their opinions but also proofes of some Church or visible societie who publikely professed the same faith in all ages The like I expect from you So the first thing is to expresse what is your faith what is ours Next what Society in all ages professed and publikely recessitated with your Church or ours doe publikely teach and recessitate I meane affirmatiuely not negatiuely for no man doth teach or recessitate what he doth denie This I haue briefely done in the definition of a Protestant Church I pray you giue me a definition of the Romane Church Whereas you say that all our Ministers are sworne to the 39 Articles you are deceiued it is not so FINIS A DIALOGVE CONCERNING THIS QVESTION VVhere was your Church before Luther and Caluin Giuing good directions how to discouer FISHERS folly By VV. C. Printed M.DC.XXIII Mr. W. C. his Dialogue concerning this question VVhere was your Church before Luther A Dialogue betweene E and D. E. ANswer this question Where was your Church before Luther D. Euen where our doctrine was sometime in one countrey
of Nazarites Acts 24.5 what is that to the matter yet he grants they are such a Sect as first had been from the beginning secondly had been in all countreys and thirdly was honest in life and sound in faith saue onely that they held the Church of Rome to be the Whore of Babel And that yet this preiudice which you haue conceiued of our Church may be further remoued out of your mind I pray you consider this think you not that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach If our doctrine was in former ages you will not deny that our Church was then also E. That cannot be denied D. Well then if you please name me any controuersie of religion The Ancient Fathers concerning any article of faith between vs and the Papists this day and you shall see that the ancient Fathers take our part in it E. That is strange for they repose their chiefest strength and trust in the ancient Fathers D. Brag what they will it is true I say they may well boast in the drosse of Fathers and decke their errors with it but we shall bring you their finest gold Name you the controuersie and you shall trie that which I say to be a truth E. There are so many controuersies among you that I know not which of them to name first D. Then will it please you to take a view of those which I haue gathered for my owne priuate vse E. With a very good will let me see what they are D. They are noted set downe in foure special books of the Protestants and I haue obserued and collected them for my owne comfort and confirmation in the faith for as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures so finding that the Doctors of the primitiue Church produced in these foure speciall books 1. Doctor White his Way to the true Church 2. Illyricus his Catalogus testim veritatis augmented twice by Goularitus 3. Doctor Reinolds his fiue conclusions or Theses the fift quinta Conclus quinta Thes in English but more large in Latin 4. Polanus his Symphonia Catholica speciall bookes writ by foure Protestant Preachers expounded the Scriptures conformable to the doctrine of our teachers I was greatly therein confirmed for these are the two great props of our faith which â—inentius giues vs against all heresies Cap. 2. E. You haue reason for you for if your doctrine be so warranted Two maine props proofs of religion both by diuine authoritie of God in his word and humane testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church they are to be iudged most vnworthy that make contradiction to you D. These points are so fully performed as I haue said in three special books by three worthy Protestant Diuines and so methodically set downe that I thinke my shewing to you of these three bookes and your reading of them will most fully content and satisfie you I say againe by Gods help they will giue you most full satisfaction as also to all others who with indifferencie wil vouchsafe to reade them F. I pray you who be those three Diuines who haue writ those three bookes and which be the bookes D. Doctor White is the first and the booke is his Way to the true Church E. Which is the second D. Flaâ—cus Illyricus his Catalogus testium veritatis augmented twice by Simon Goulartius set out by him the second time in one volume in a large Folio E. Which is the third D. Doctor Reinolds his six Conclusions in English placed at the end of his Conference with Hart but it is his fift Conclusion which I meane for this purpose quinta Conclus or his six Theses in Latin of his last augmented Edition and thereof I meane his fift Thes quinta Thes more full then the English E. And what haue these foure Diuines performed in those foure bookes to giue comfort content and satisfaction on this very point we haue now in hand viz. Where your Church doctrine teachers were before Luther for I assure you this is the maine matter which troubleth many at this present for Campian was not so busie in Queen Elizabeths dayes with his Audito nomine Ecclesiae hostis expalluit but Fisher Sweet Clarke and other Iesuites are as busie now in King Iames his dayes euen at this present with their Where was your Church before Luther Where your Preachers where your professors where your doctrine let vs heare their names Names names names names cries the Fisher catched in his owne Net D. What haue they performed enough at the full in the mercie of God to satisfie you and all other indifferent Readers that without preiudice looke into those their labours E. How might I come by those bookes may I meet with them in Pauls Church-yard for I would very gladly buy them D. You may most easily but stay let mee a little call back that word for they are so fast bought vp that I doubt they are almost out of print for and that worthily they are exceedingly in request E. So much the more the Printers are too blame that they giue not a second impression to them D. A second impression say you why Doctor Whites Way to the true Church hath beene printed foure seuerall times now within a few yeares and notwithstanding are almost all sold vp but I heare a fifth impression is now in hand Polanus his Symphonia Illyricus and Doctor Reinolds their bookes before named haue beene diuers times imprinted also so that you need not blame the Printers who are carefull to make new impressions and new supplies of bookes so worthy and so much in request and so greatly sought after E. This should argue that their bookes by Gods blessing are very powerfull and win many to the truth they vent so exceedingly fast D. O yes God be thanked preaching and writing succeed happily with a blessed successe doubt you not but at this day for one Papist England doth enioy xx xl yea rather an hundred Protestants Masses and stage-playes grow odious E. You make me long for these foure bookes I would gladly be in hand with them D. Why Sir seeing your longing is so great I haue them at hand for you vse them so long as you please now I fetch them out of my Studie E. Are these they Sir I pray you D. Yes indeed these are the very bookes E. Now I pray you Sir before that we open them tell me in briefe what they say and performe in these matters D. That good Sir I will most willingly performe E. And I most willingly listen and giue attentiue care vnto you D. God direct with his holy Spirit and giue a blessing in his Sonne Christ Iesus These foure bookes following do fully furnish any Scholler to make answer to all Iesuits Masse-priests Fisher Clarke Sweet c. to that question Where was your Religion before
AN ANSWER TO M R. FISHER THE IESVITE HIS FIVE PROPOSITIONS CONCERNING LVTHER By Mr. ROGERS that worâ—â—â— Oxford Diuine VVith some passages also of the said Mr. Rogers with the said Mr. Fisher Hereunto is annexed Mr. VV. C. his Dialogue of the said Argument wherein is discoâ—â—â—â—d FISHERS FOLLY Printed M.DC.XXIII M R. FISHER THE IESVITE HIS FIVE PROPOSITIONS CONCERNING 1. Luther 2. Doctrine 3. Names 1. THere is one and but one true infallible faith Eph. 4. Heb. 11. without which none can please God nor consequently attaine eternall saluation 2. Rom. 10. Eph. 4. This infallible faith cannot be had according to the ordinarie course of Gods prouidence but by hearing Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church who onely are lawfully sent and authorized to teach the true word of God 3. As therefore this one infallible faith hath beene Ose 2. Isa 56. Mat. 18. Eph. 4. and must be in all ages so there must be in all ages Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church of whom all sorts of people haue in times past as appeareth by histories learned and must in all future times learne the said infallible faith 4. Hence it followeth that if Protestants be the true visible Church of God then all sorts of men who in euery age haue had the aforesaid infallible faith haue learned it by hearing Protestant Preachers whose names may be found who in euery former age did teach and conuert people of seuerall Nations vnto the faith of Christ 5. Hence further it followeth that if there cannot as there cannot be found in Historie the names of Protestant Preachers who in all ages did teach all sorts of faithfull people and who conuertd seuerall Nations vnto the Christian faith hence it followeth I say that the Protestants are not the true visible Church of Christ neither are their Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authorized to teach nor the people securely warranted to learne of them that one infallible faith without which none can please God nor if they so liue and die can be saued 1. Names 2. Doctrine If any Protestant will answer the premises let him set downe the Names of Protestant Preachers in all ages who taught the people Protestant Doctrine in euery seuerall age or else confesse that there were no such before Luther or at least not in all ages to be found in Historie TO THE CHRISTIAN READER CHristian Reader There came to my hands by the good prouidence of God this small Treatise touching a conference betwixt one Mr. Rogers an Oxford Diuine and one Mr. Fisher a Iesuite as it should seeme it was sent inclosed to a Gentleman of good worth and worship one this side the Seas hauing read it ouer and perceiuing it to be of very necessary vse for my Country-men of England whose good I desire from my heart I haue aduentured to publish it to the view of the world the rather because therein is notably laid open and conuinced the weake grounds of the fiue propositions of Mr. Fisher the Iesuite who is as I heare so much admired of English papists the which Fisher Sweet Brierly Clerk with others of that company doe studie and striue with all might and maine by divulging their written papers as also their Printed Bookes full of lyes and vntruths nay I say Bookes full of blasphemie against the greaâ— God of heauen as namely that Booke Intituled The vncasing of Heresie written by O. A and all to make proselites of their owne faction to ruine that flourishing Church and Common-wealth I beseech the great God of heauen to raise vp dayly worthy Diuines more and more to defend his owne cause against the Kingdome of Antichrist and wicked instruments being very dangerous persons both against Church and Common wealth Read it with the 〈…〉 ioyned so by Gods blessing thou shalt reape 〈◊〉 fit by it and gâ—ue all glory to God aboue who in 〈◊〉 will â—eâ—â—esse things that are amisse THE ANSWER TO THE MASSE-PRIESTS DEMANDS CONCERNING 1. Doctrine and 2. Names Rogers THe three first positions I admit 1. that there is one faith 2. That the ordinarie propagation of this faith is by Pastors lawfully called 3. That there haue been and must be in all agee such Pastors so called 4. I would gladly know what they meane by those wordes If the Protestants be the true visible Church whether so as if we alone who are commonly called Protestants were of the Church and no others we leaue such inclosing of commons to the Romanists we challenge it not We are a true Church not the true Church we are a part not the whole we include our selues we exclude not others whether Grecians Armenians Aethiopians Spaniards or Italians c yet so they deny no fundamentall part of the faith either directly or by consequent 5. In the first I desire to know whether they require we should shew the Names of Protestants in Histories or their faith this we will shew that we neede not for the name of Protestants is but arbitrarie and accidentall from a protestation made in Germanie and from the like accidents we may call the Romanists Protestants for many protestations made in the Councell of Trent Registred in their publike Acts. But if it be really meant thus let the Protestants shew that their now faith was taught by lawfull Pastors in all ages I doe with Gods helpe vndertake it and require the same from the Authors of these propositions and demaunds This will I proue by three Argument 1. A Causis 2. A Signis 3. Ab Exemplis Which is the onely satisfaction here demanded but I must desire the authors not to affect obscuritie or to alter their words which may alter their meaning as in the fiue propositions they haue with the multitude of needlesse words obscured the matter the fourth being briefely and plainly this 4. If the Protestants be a true Church their faith hath beene taught in all ages by lawfull Pastors This I grant also The summe of the fift is briefely this 5. If the Names of Protestant Pastors in all ages cannot be shewed then the Protestants are not a true Church This I denie to be of vndoubted consequence for the Argument negatiuely from authoritie is of no force In your Demands you require the Names of such as taught the Protestants Doctrines in all ages wheras all your propositions before were of faith as if all Doctrines were points of faith Now Sit my Arguments 1. The faith contained in Scriptures hath beene taught in all ages But the faith of the Protestants is contained in Scriptures Ergo The faith of the Protestants hath beene taught in all ages 2. That faith which hath the testimonie of antiquitie vniuersalitie and consent was taught in all ages by lawfull Pastors The faith of the Protestants hath these testimonies Ergo The faith of the Protestants was taught in all ages 3. That faith which hath beene taught by Authors visible in all ages is the true