little to the purpose Secondly a Romified Lady being present and being troubled with those dull and weake answers did then intreat me to interpose and dispute of Transubstantiation for her instruction And lastly I adde that I had proposed this question to Master Sweet at my house 8. weekes before where his leasure then would not giue him leaue to dispute of it and now I conceiued he was wel armed for a second encounter Againe where it is related in the Conference that I told M. Buggs that the Church was in Christ and his Apostles c. The Iesuite saith in the margent there A very weake and insufficient answer as is shewed hereafter Surely the Iesuite had a weake memorie and forgot a farther Reply or else other answer hee could not make to disproue it Neither by Master Fishers leaue was it so weake and insufficient an answer as hee gaue me when vpon his first meeting falling into conference about the Reall presence which Master Fisher would prooue out of these words Hot est corpus meuÌ„ I answerd that Scotus Cameracensis and Bellarmine were of opinion that that Text was not strong enough to enforce Transubstantiation To which obiection hee gaue this Answer as a full satisfaction to the standers-by What care I for Bellarmine or Scotus or Cameracensis Againe by Master Sweets leaue it was not so weake and insufficient an answer as when I propounded to him foure questions viz. The worship of Images Praier in an vnknowne tongue Communion in one kinde and Transubstantiation with this assurance in the presence of Recusants that if he could proue either all or but any one of those held by the ancient Fathers in the Primitiue Church according to that forme of doctrine prescribed in the Councel of Trent I would then subscribe to Popery All his answer was that hee brought a booke that would proue them all So for that time I was content hee should bee saued by his booke But Doctor Featly in whose hands hee is now will not let him escape so easily but calling him into the inner barre will finde that non legit vt Clericus At that time Master Sweet farther added that hee for his part had other businesse and could not intend to argue with mee about those questions If his superior had heard him certainly hee would haue enioyned him penance for neglecting so faiâ—e an opportunitie of conuerting such an Hereticke as hee takes mee to bee hee knowes there ought to bee no businesse pretended where there had been a possibility to make a proselyte Lastly concerning the issue of the Conference I auow and protest that old Master Bugs came then to me and gaue mee thankes in the same roome before his departure and told mee that he well perceiued it was be the great brags of the aduersaries for their Church that hee well perceiued they could say but little for it and withall hee did acknowledge himselfe to bee so well satisfied at that time that he professed vnto mee that if his sonne would not leaue his religion and the priests company he would leaue him c. HVMFREY LYNDE The Protestant Relation Paragraph the first touching the entry into the Conference DOctor White and D. Featly beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde and staying awhile after had notice giuen them that M. Fisher and M. Sweet Iesuites were in the next room ready to conferre with them touching a Question set downe by M. Fisher vnder his owne hand in these words viz. First Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible and especially in the Ages going before Luther and secondly Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors This Question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named and it beeing notified vnto them that there were certaine persons who had beene sollicited and remaining doubtfull in Religion desired satisfaction especially in this point they were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point the rather because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers and disperse them in secret in which they vaunt that no Protestant Minister dare encounter them in this point Master Fisher his Answer First any man reading this parcel would be induced to think that D. White D. Featly had neuer had notice before for what end they were inuited to dinner or for what end they were to meete with the Iesuites but that they were on the sudden summâ—ned to this Conference without any preparation or knowledge of the Question which not to be so is euidently conuinced partly by that which is already said partly by that which I am after to say Secondly this Relator would make his Reader beleeue that M. Fisher vnder his owne hand had set downe the words of the Question distinguished with the expresse figure of 2. which is not so for M. Fisher did not write any such figure of 2. in the middle of the Question nor did not meane to make any more then 〈◊〉 onely entire Question as Sir Humfrey himselfe had desired Thirdly he seemeth willing to perswade that Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers which is not true Doctor Featly his Reply The Heathen accounted it an ominous thing offendere in limine to stumble as a man is going out a-doores in lifting his legge ouer the threshold You do so M. Fisher you stumble at the first setting your foote out a-doore and which is farre worse you stumble at three strawes The first is that forsooth any man reading this parcell would beleeue that D. White and my selfe were on the sudden summoned to this Conference And what if he should beleeue so What doth this aduaÌ„tage our cause or preiudice yours It matters not much how wee came to this encounter but how we came off Yet are there no words in the Relation which imply any such thing that wee came sudden or vnprouided nay whosoeuer reades the first Chapter touching the occasion of the Conference cannot but perceiue that wee had notice of it before and came prouided The truth is for mine owne part I knew of it two daies and no more before the meeting and I excepted against the day appointed as beeing too neere and sudden for a man to prepare either to oppose or answer in so spacious and â—ast a Question 〈◊〉 from Christ to Lâ—ther yet beeing ouer-intreated to be there as an Assistanâ— onely in the 〈◊〉 yeelded The second straw you stumbled at is That the Relator would make the Reader beleeue that M. Fisher put a figure of 2. at the second part of his Question And what if the Reader did so beleeue It is certaine that there is a second 〈◊〉 in your Question And what 〈◊〉 then had it beene to set before the second Vtrum the figure 2 Howsoeuer there was no fault in the Protestant Relaâ—our but in the Printer who mistooke the interrogatiue point in the copy for the figure 2. In the
excuse the matter saying Fâ—gisse Haereticos atque in praelatos ac monachos se abdidisse that the Hereticks which seemed to bee flowne away in this Age were not indeed vanished out of the world but lay close and hid themselues vnder Bishops Rochets and Monkes Coules where neither Prateolus nor Norice durst to search for them As this ninth Age so the tenth and some others after were very barren of learned Writers And therefore no maruaile if the haruest wee gather in these Ages of the professors of the truth and defenders thereof by writing bee very thinne for to leaue an Armie of bastard apocryphall Authors as the Papists do to maintain the Popes title or in so weighty a cause to rely on the ragged regiment of Authors mustred vp in Orthodoxographia bibliotheca veterum et Epistolae obscurorum virorum c. I hold it rather a dishonor and disaduantage then any credit or aduantage to the truth The fift Assertion Since Boniface the Third's time in the seauenth Age and much more since Hildebrand in the tenth such was the greatnesse of the Pope and transcendent power of the See of Rome that few durst or might write freely against the errors and vsurpations thereof And therefore it is not to be maruailed that we haue not many but it is rather to bee maruailed that wee haue any who haue displayed the abominations of the Whore of Babylon The Answer of a Poet in Augustus time is very famous who beeing demanded why he replied not vpon Augustus who had writ against him a bitter Satyr cleanly wiped his lips and said Periculosum est 〈◊〉 â—um scribere qui potest proscribere It is a dangerous thing to giue him a dash with a pen who is like to requite it with a slash of a sword to obiect against him in inke who can returne an answer in blood Pone Tigelinum teda lucebis in illa Qua stantes ardent fixo gutture fumant Set the Pope or Church of Rome out in her colours and shee will make you a light of the Church by burning you at a stake Platina and Occham long ago vpon iust cause and lamentable experience cast this bloodie aspersion on the Pope and his Adherents Occham frameth his inditement in these words Vt intentum 〈◊〉 horrendum ad finem possint perducere defendentes vâ—ritatem prosequuntur interimunt innoxium sangâ—â—nem fundunt That they may bring their horrible purpose to passe they prosecute such as maintaine the truth murther them and shead their innocent bloud Platinaâ— in these words 〈◊〉 mandataâ— Christi quise Vicarium eius dicit credâ—â—â— in verba Dei exurit Hee condemneth the commands of Christ who professeth and calleth himselfe his Vicar and burneth such as beleeue in the words of God Laurentius Valla for writing freely against the forged donation of Constantine lost his libertie and Countrie too Occham was so bold to strike at the Popes triple Crowne and to oppose some doctrines of the Church of Rome that hee was therefore excommunicated by the Pope and so grieuously persecuted that he was constrained to flie to the Emperor for succour to whom hee made this reasonable motion Tu defende me gladio ego defendam te calamo Defend thou mee by thy sword or power I will defend thee by my word or pen. Were the Waldenses and Albingenses murthered by thousands for Heresie No Rainerius cleareth them of that Omnia rectè de Deo credunt They beleeue all things rightly concerning God Why then Solummodo Romanam Ecclesians blasphemant Clerum They speake euill of the Church of Rome and the Clergie The opinions of the Albingenses saith Hallian did not so much stir vp the hate of the Pope and great Princes against them as the libertie of speech did wherewith they vsed to blame the vices and disolutenes of the said Princes and Clergie yea to tax the vices and actions of the Popes themselues This was the principall point that brought them into vniuersall hatred What was it so inflamed the Pope against the Hussites that hee proclaimed two Croisadoes and imploied great armies against them Their administring the Sacrament in both kindes maugre the sacrilegious decree of the Councell of Constance No. That he could and did dispence with all It was that article of the Hussites gathered out of their writings by Alanus Papaest â—estia de qua habetur in Apocalypsi 12. Datum est ei bellum facere cum sanctis The Pope is the beast whereof it is said in the 12. of the Reuelation It is granted to him the beast to warre with the Saints Hincillae lachrymae Nay rather Hinc ille crâ—or This kindled such a fire against the deare seruants of Christ that nothing could or did quench it but their bloud shed in great abundance For some hundreds of yeeres the chiefe Records and Monuments of the Westerne Church haue been in the hands of our Romish aduersaries who haue partly burned them partly corrupted them and partly kept them from vs. And herein they deale with vs as Theramenes his Colleagues dealt with him who hauing a purpose to question him for his life first strooke his name out of the Catalogue of the gouernours of the Citty and then articled against him And when he pleaded the priuiledge of all those whose names were written in the Catalogue they barred him from this defence saying That he could not plead that priuiledge because his name was not in the Catalogue In like manner our aduersaries take away from vs or make away from vs our records and then they non-sute vs for want of euidence Gregorie the great wrote manie things preiudiciall to the Popes pretensions and vsurpations and therefore Sabinianus his successor burnt diuers of his bookes as Platina intimates and Sixtus Senensâ—s expresly affirmeth That his most wicked emulators did burne the greater part of Gregories works presently after his death Auentine brandeth Pope Hildebrand with the marke of a corrupter of Chronicles and a razer out of them the things that were done Cocleus writeth of Hus Dum duceretur ad locum poenae videns in coemiterio libros suos comburi subrisit proper eam stultitiam While hee was led to the place of execution seeing in the Church-yard his bookes to bee burned hee smiled at that follie And his smiling may seeme propheticall for notwithstanding all the meanes that they could possibly vse to root him and his writings out of the memory of men yet both through Gods mercy are preserued and some few works also of Wicklef But the great bulk of them not much inferior to the quantity of Saint Austens works could not escape the fire beeing so narrowly searched after by the command of diuers Popes yea and Kings too If we might haue accesse to the Popes Library we doubt not but that wee should finde many more bookes written both in Latine and Greek against the Pope
therefore you doo well and wisely heer not to lay these blocks for your blinde children to stumble at which neither you nor all the Iesuits in Christendome are able to remoue The Protestant Relation Paragraph the fift concerning the parts of the Question D. Featly There are two Quaeres in your Question First Whether the Protestant Church were in all Ages visible and secondly Whether the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed c. M. Fisher. There are not two Quaeres or parts in the Question it is but one Question D. White Where there are two Propositions with two distinct Vtrums there are two Questions c. M. Fisher. Conclude any thing syllogistically D. Featly D. Featly And is a Coniunction copulatiue and must adde somewhat to That that goes before It is all one as if you should expound the words of the Apostle Prouide honest things before God and men before God that is before men Master FISHER'S Answer My Question is meant to be but one entire Question And so to cut off all needlesse wrangling made by D. White and D. Featly about the Aduerb Vtrùm whether and the Copulatiue et and as if Grammar-scholars had been disputing rather than graue Diuines who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar especially in this case where the sense of the speaker is plaine and may well stand with Grammar Master Fisher said The question being mine it pertaineth to mee to tell the meaning and my meaning was onely to make is one question viz. Whether the Protestant Church were so visible as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors Wherefore if you will dispute you must dispute in my sense and must conclude the affirmatiue viz. The Protestant Church was so visible as the Names of the professors in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors Doctor FEATLY'S Reply First the parts of your question are distinguished really for a Protestant Church may haue beene visible in many Ages and yet not the names of visible Protestants liuing in those Ages now to bee produced as your selfe confesseth in effect page 33. line 23. Wee doe not require that all visible mens names should bee vpon record nor all records produced Secondly they are distinguished formally in words whether the protestant Church c. And whether the Names c. Thirdly they are distinguished by points for in the middle of your question before the second part of it you your selfe put a colon thus Fourthly you distinguish them your selfe in your answer in the written copie which I haue for to the first part you answer in the margent It was not which answer was not nor can bee applied to the latter part Either the parts of your question are distinct in sense or out of question you propound them senslesly whether and whether two whethers meaning but one Admit the construction you giue of the first part viz. Whether a Protestant Church were visible in all Ages that is so visible as the Names of visible Protestants may bee shewed what construction then will you make of the latter clause whether the Names may be shewed Is not this iust like Battus his spell in the Latin Poet Subillis Montibus inquit erant et erant sub montibus illis Or the like of the French Car comâ— ' vn ' Aigle mountant an clair soleil Car c'estoite vn ' Aigle mountant an clair soleil It is as if I should propound such a question Whether Iesuites be so honest men that they will not equiuocate and whether they will not equiuocate Or whether the letters in a small print are so visible that they may bee read and whether they may bee read Or whether the parts of this question are so distinguished that they are not altogether confounded and whether they are not altogether confounded But you say I am bound to dispute in your sense What sense mean you The sense that is to be made of your words or the sense which you make by your mental reseruation It seemeth you are so vsed to your Iesuitical Cabala that you cannot in your disputing but smacke of it I am bound to dispute with you you say in your sense I grant you am I therfore to dispute with you in your non-sence But you say that it is for Grammar Scholars to argue about the Aduerb Vtrum and the copulatiue et and. Tell your great Clark Cardinall Bellarmine so who wier-drawes your Sacrifice of the Masse out of the Copulatiue et and And he was a Priest of the most high God c. and your Transubstantiation out of the Pronoune hoc Hoc est Corpus c. your Popes supremacie out of the Pronoune tibi Dico tibi Petre c. Doth not Saint Austen presse Grammaticall Arguments against Cresconius the Grammarian Nay doth not Saint Paul himselfe presse a Grammaticall argument Against the Iewes Non ex seminibus sed ex semine Not of seedes as of many but of thy seed as of one How many ancient and later Diuines whose bookes you are not worthy to carry after them haue substaÌ„tially proued the Trinity by a Grammatical Argument drawne froÌ„ the Plural Number Faciamus Let vs make man yea the Trinitie in vnity by an Argument founded vpon the construction of a Verbe Singular with a Nowne Plurall Elohim that is Dij creaâ—it It is no disparagement Master Fisher for the greatest Clarke to remember his Grammar But he who so farre forgets his Grammar as you doe deserueth to be turned back to the Grammar Schoole and to haue his Garmmar-Rules better imprinted into him with a Schoole-Masters Ferula or somewhat else Yea but Aquila non capit Muse aâ— you are a high flyer and therefore scorne to strike at a Flie Yet take heed of such Flies lest you bee choked with one of them as your Pope Adrian was Such dead Flies as you heere swallow are able to corrupt and spill a whole boxe of the sweetest Oyntment The Protestant Relation Paragraph the sixt touching the pretended necessitie of naming Protestants in all Ages Master Sweet What need you stand so much vpon this If there were visible men certainely they may be named name your visible Protestants and it sufficeth Name visible Protestants in all Ages D. Featly It seemes you are nominals rather then reals you stand so much vpon naming will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all Ages If neither you nor wee can name visible professors of our Religions in all Ages for ought I know the best way for vs is to be all naturall men D. Featly This is the right reason of a Naturall M. Sweet If there were visible Protestants in all Ages certainely they may bee named D. Featly That is a non sequitur for the reasons before named by me What say you to a people of Africa who if we may beleeue Pliny haue no names at all M. Boulton Yet they haue descriptions and
of Prague it appeares by those his words in Asser. articul 32. Iohannem Hus et Hieronymum viros catholicâ—s combusserunt haeretici ipsi Apostatae Antichristi discipuli they burnd Iohn Hus and Hierom both Catholique men they being themselues Heretiques and Apostataes and the disciples of Antichrist And in his first preface to some of the Epistles of Hus prefixed to the works of Hus In numero istorum operum sanctissimi Domini papae habetur et hoc quòd in Constantiensi Concilio optimum et pijssimum virum Iohannem Hus damnauit In the number of those workes of the holy Father the Pope this is one that in the Councell of Constance hee condemned Iohn Hus a man of singular worth and extraordinary piety And in the second preface Has Epistolas sancti Martyris Iohannis Hus c. These Epistles of the holy Martyr Iohn Hus And in his third Preface A fide dignis hominibus percepi Imperatorem Maximilianum de Iohanne Hus dicere solitum Hei hei secerunt bono illi viro iniuriam Et Erasmus Roter in primis libellis quos typis excusos adhuc mecum habeo manifestè scribit Iohannem Hus exustum quidem sed non conuictum esse Tale omni tempore bonorum virorum iudicium fuit quòd illata ei sit vis et iniuria Et paulò pòst porrò In confesso est attestantibus et aduersarijs quorum ipse nonnâ—llâ—s eosque magnos theologos audiui ante annos 30 fuisse 〈◊〉 excellenter doctum et eruditione atque doctrinâ antecellüisse omnibus Doctoribus in toto Conciliâ— Ego olim Erphordiae studij Theologiae tyro incidens in librum sermonum Iohannis Hus prae euriositate quadam incendebar desiderio cognoscendi quaenam dogmata haeresiarcha ille sparsisset cùm hic liber in publica Bibliothecâ ab incendio sernatuâ— esset â—itertâ— inter lâ—gendum obstupefactuâ— admiratione afficiebar propè incre dibili quam ob causam tandem exâ—â—â—â—s esset vir tantus in explicandâ et tractandâ scripturâ tam dexter et grauis c. I haue heard from men of credit that the Emperour Maximilian was wont to say of Iohn Hus Alas alas they did that good man wrong and Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth that indeed Iohn Hus was burned but not conuicted This was the iudgement of learned men alwaies concerning Iohn Hus that great wrong and violence was offered vnto him For proofe whereof hee alleageth Doctor Staâ—pritius and Andrew Praule and in the end addeth moreouer It is a thing confessed euen by our Aduersaries themselues some of whom beeing great Diuines I heard 30 yeeres agoe that Iohn Hus was excellently learned and farre beyond all the Doctors in that Councell I my selfe when I was a young Student in Diuinity at Erford meeting with a booke of Sermons penn'd by Iohn Hus was inflamed with a desire of reading it thorow that I might know what were the heresies which this Arch-heretick broached This book was happily kept from burning lying hid among many other in the publique Library in the reading whereof I was amazed and could not sufficiently admire what the cause might be that so great a Clarke so expert and dexterous in expounding and handling Scripture should bee burned Thus you see how farre Luther was from detracting from any of his fore-runners to whom hee yeelded as ample a testimony for the Truth as they had yelded to the Truth And I desire the indifferent Reader to obserue how Iohn Hus his prophesie before his death was fulfilled in Luthers vindicating his doctrine and person Iohn Hus his words were which are yet to bee seene stamped in antient coyne currant among the Hussites Centum reuolutis annis c. After a hundred yeeres you shall answer God and mee and some affirme that hee added Iam Hus that is in the Bohemian Language Goose but there shall follow mee a Swan c. And indeed after a hundred yeeres that Swan appeared in the world which most sweetly beganne to record the pure notes of the Songs of Sion whose strong quill hath eternized Iohn Hus his innocencie of life and purity of Doctrine Master FISHER Wherefore the Lutheran Conradus Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany and the like is of other countries before Luther did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell And another of them not onely saith in effect thus much but prooueth it by this Argument If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation Another saith It is ridiculous to think that in the time before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receiue if from them and 〈◊〉 they from Luther considering saith hee it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers time all Churches were ouer-whelmed with more then Câ—merian darknesse and that Luther was diuinely raised vp to discouer the same and to restore the light of true doctrine Doctor FEATLY'S Answer First I would haue you to know M. Fisher that I hold my self no way bound to giue an account of euery rayling or ouer-lashing Lutherans speech no more then you will vndertake to make good euery inuectiue of the secular Priests against the Iesuites such Writers of the petâ—y forme of little antiquity and lesse learning were not wont to be alledged in controuersies of moment in Diuinity But I perceiue by you M. Fisher that according to the Prouerb all is fish that commeth to your net If these three had ioyntly testified that for which you cite them yet their testimonies might soone bee blowne away by the conspiring breath of many Protestants of better rank then they Regius alledged by your owne Brerely testifyeth most expresly the contrary Dico fuisse ante Lutherum verae Religionis et qui cum Luthero per omnia consentires coetum Ecclesiasticum etsi à pontificijs non fuerit agnitus nec propter tyrannidem pontificium fortasse ostendi visibiliter potuerit I say that before Luther there was a companie professing the true Religion of the same beliefe with Luther although this company was not agnized by the Papists nor peraduenture could visibly be shewne or poynted at by reason of the Popish tyrannie Whitaker auowes Regius Our Church was then viz. in the Ages before Luther But it was not visible saith Bellarmine to weet in the Popish sense What then Will it follow that therefore it was not at all in the world By no meanes for it lay hid in the Desart Oâ—colampadius and Martin Bucers Letters to the Waldenses are extant in their works I might alledge the testimonies of Constance and Bullinger Vesembekius Viret Vigneaâ—s Caluin Beza Humfrey Fox Illyriâ—us and many other Protestants of higher rank then such sneakers as Schlusenburg or Myllius or Morgenst All the