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book_n ancient_a fit_a good_a 28 3 2.1254 3 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A30942 The disputation at Winchcomb November 9, 1653 together with the letters and testimonies pertinent thereto : wherein is offered some satisfaction in serveral points of religion. Barksdale, Clement, 1609-1687. 1654 (1654) Wing B794; ESTC R23641 73,761 196

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use_n for_o advice_n and_o counsel_n not_o for_o government_n or_o for_o the_o exercise_n of_o any_o jurisdiction_n b._n then_o as_o i_o conceive_v your_o model_n be_v very_o imperfect_a and_o i_o think_v your_o minister_n in_o their_o several_a congregation_n look_v like_a so_o many_o little_a pope_n for_o the_o pope_n be_v the_o great_a independent_a and_o will_v allow_v of_o no_o appeal_n from_o he_o no_o more_o will_v you_o h._n pray_v mr._n b._n quiet_a the_o people_n b._n i_o beseech_v you_o good_a people_n i_o beseech_v you_o attend_v with_o silence_n and_o patience_n tr._n where_o present_o follow_v execution_n there_o can_v be_v no_o appeal_n but_o after_o the_o sentence_n of_o the_o congregation_n present_o follow_v execution_n if_o he_o hear_v not_o the_o church_n let_v he_o etc._n etc._n therefore_o from_o the_o sentence_n of_o the_o congregation_n can_v be_v no_o appeal_n b._n well_o argue_v i_o repeat_v where_o present_o etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v first_o to_o the_o 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you_o no_o pleasure_n unless_o that_o which_o follow_v in_o the_o next_o verse_n belong_v unto_o the_o congregation_n too_o but_o that_o can_v be_v if_o christ_n speak_v the_o word_n to_o his_o apostle_n and_o give_v the_o key_n and_o power_n of_o bind_v and_o loose_v to_o they_o and_o their_o successor_n as_o i_o believe_v he_o do_v consider_v of_o it_o see_v the_o learned_a dr._n hammond_n of_o bind_v and_o lose_v to._n give_v i_o leave_v to_o add_v somewhat_o here_o in_o confirmation_n of_o what_o be_v last_o say_v scripture_n you_o know_v give_v light_a to_o scripture_n christ_n elsewhere_o say_v to_o peter_n that_o he_o will_v give_v the_o key_n to_o he_o matth._n 16._o 19_o and_o john_n 20._o 21_o 21_o 23._o he_o speak_v to_o his_o disciple_n and_o thus_o enstate_v they_o in_o that_o power_n then_o say_v jesus_n to_o they_o again_o peace_n be_v unto_o you_o as_o my_o father_n have_v send_v i_o even_o so_o send_v i_o you_o and_o when_o he_o have_v say_v this_o he_o breathe_v on_o they_o and_o say_v unto_o they_o receive_v you_o the_o holy_a ghost_n whosoever_o sin_n you_o remit_v they_o be_v remit_v unto_o they_o and_o whosoever_o sin_n you_o retain_v they_o be_v retain_v these_o be_v the_o solemn_a word_n of_o ordination_n w._n the_o word_n be_v speak_v to_o peter_n and_o to_o the_o disciple_n as_o they_o be_v christian_a professor_n and_o so_o they_o do_v belong_v to_o our_o people_n not_o as_o they_o be_v appoint_v by_o christ_n to_o be_v governor_n of_o his_o church_n to._n the_o word_n signify_v a_o power_n commit_v to_o they_o which_o they_o use_v as_o governor_n it_o be_v plain_a and_o which_o they_o leave_v to_o the_o bishop_n their_o successor_n tr._n the_o apostle_n have_v no_o successor_n be_v gift_v with_o a_o miraculous_a power_n b._n the_o apostle_n be_v to_o be_v consider_v in_o two_o respect_n either_o as_o planter_n of_o the_o church_n and_o to_o that_o purpose_n endue_v with_o a_o miraculous_a power_n to_o make_v way_n for_o and_o to_o give_v 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be_v for_o the_o body_n of_o congregation_n which_o we_o say_v be_v under_o no_o superior_n neither_o bishop_n nor_o presbyter_n but_o absolute_a and_o independent_a in_o respect_n of_o man_n and_o immediate_o under_o jesus_n christ_n col._n a._n bishop_n and_o presbyter_n be_v all_o one_o in_o the_o new_a testament_n namely_o act_v 20._o 17._o paul_n send_v to_o ephesus_n and_o call_v the_o elder_n of_o the_o church_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d and_o v._o 28._o the_o holy_a ghost_n have_v make_v you_o overseer_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d therefore_o presbyter_n and_o bishop_n be_v all_o one_o p._n noble_a sir_n i_o answer_v bishop_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v also_o call_v presbyter_n but_o they_o be_v more_o than_o those_o we_o now_o call_v presbyter_n who_o be_v to_o be_v ordain_v and_o govern_v by_o the_o bishop_n any_o presbyter_n may_v be_v call_v bishop_n or_o overseer_n of_o his_o own_o parish_n but_o those_o we_o eminent_o style_v bishop_n now_o who_o be_v 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spirit_n that_o the_o scripture_n be_v divine_a here_o you_o may_v make_v very_o good_a use_n of_o the_o testimony_n of_o the_o next_o age_n that_o receive_v it_o from_o the_o apostle_n and_o give_v it_o down_o to_o their_o follower_n w._n and_o h._n popery_n to_o depend_v upon_o the_o testimony_n of_o the_o church_n to._n since_o you_o be_v many_o at_o once_o upon_o one_o which_o be_v not_o fair_a give_v i_o leave_v to_o put_v in_o sometime_o in_o behalf_n and_o for_o the_o case_n of_o the_o respondent_fw-la we_o say_v we_o depend_v upon_o the_o testimony_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n not_o of_o the_o now_o roman_a church_n the_o roman_a church_n be_v a_o very_a corrupt_a church_n the_o primitive_a time_n be_v far_o more_o pure_a w._n what_o do_v you_o talk_v of_o purity_n after_o the_o apostle_n time_n do_v not_o many_o heresy_n creep_v in_o to._n by_o this_o argument_n you_o will_v condemn_v the_o apostle_n time_n also_o for_o even_o then_o be_v not_o want_v schism_n and_o heresy_n b._n will_v you_o leave_v this_o as_o it_o be_v and_o proceed_v to_o some_o far_a argument_n and_o come_v close_o to_o the_o business_n of_o the_o sacrament_n i_o say_v it_o be_v lawful_a for_o i_o to_o minister_v the_o sacrament_n in_o the_o congregation_n at_o sudeley_n h._n thus_o i_o proceed_v to_o show_v that_o your_o call_n be_v null_a therefore_o you_o can_v minister_v minister_n that_o profane_v the_o holy_a thing_n of_o the_o lord_n their_o call_n be_v null_a but_o many_o parish_n minister_n profane_v the_o holy_a thing_n of_o the_o lord_n therefore_o their_o call_v be_v null_a b._n you_o shall_v say_v all_o parish_n minister_n for_o you_o hold_v it_o be_v not_o lawful_a to_o minister_v in_o any_o mix_a congregation_n and_o such_o you_o say_v be_v all_o parish_n church_n but_o say_v neither_o all_o nor_o many_o but_o apply_v the_o minor_a to_o i_o who_o you_o have_v public_o in_o your_o sermon_n condemn_v before_o you_o use_v the_o christian_a way_n of_o more_o private_a admonition_n and_o then_o i_o deny_v both_o your_o premise_n both_o major_a and_o minor_a both_o be_v false_a and_o scandalous_a neither_o do_v the_o profane_v of_o holy_a thing_n null_a the_o minister_n call_v nor_o have_v i_o profane_v the_o holy_a thing_n in_o the_o say_a ministry_n h._n first_o then_o i_o prove_v the_o major_a full_o you_o that_o have_v bibles_n brethren_n pray_v turn_n to_o the_o place_n ezek._n 22._o 26._o &_o 44._o 13._o b._n what_o prove_v you_o thence_o h._n that_o profane_v the_o holy_a thing_n null_v the_o priesthood_n for_o they_o shall_v be_v no_o priest_n unto_o i_o say_v the_o lord_n b._n i_o answer_v to_o the_o text_n by_o distinguish_v between_o the_o order_n of_o a_o priest_n and_o the_o office_n of_o a_o priest_n they_o shall_v be_v no_o priest_n unto_o i_o here_o be_v a_o suspension_n from_o the_o office_n and_o work_n of_o the_o priest_n no_o null_n of_o the_o priesthood_n itself_o w._n then_o it_o seem_v by_o you_o they_o be_v priest_n and_o no_o priest_n god_n say_v they_o shall_v not_o you_o say_v they_o shall_v remain_v priest_n to._n he_o have_v show_v you_o how_o they_o be_v priest_n and_o no_o priest_n in_o divers_a respect_n they_o be_v still_o of_o the_o order_n and_o race_n of_o priest_n they_o be_v not_o to_o officiate_v any_o more_o in_o the_o priestly_a office_n god_n will_v not_o accept_v they_o he_o say_v they_o shall_v be_v no_o priest_n unto_o i_o yet_o who_o know_v but_o upon_o their_o repentance_n god_n may_v readmit_v they_o not_o by_o a_o new_a consecration_n but_o by_o absolution_n and_o so_o minister_n when_o they_o be_v restore_v after_o suspension_n be_v not_o new_o ordain_v but_o only_o the_o censure_n take_v off_o tr._n well_o you_o grant_v at_o last_o a_o removal_n and_o suspension_n from_o the_o office_n though_o the_o call_n be_v not_o null_v and_o so_o you_o will_v confess_v you_o deserve_v to_o be_v remove_v from_o officiate_a if_o you_o profane_v the_o holy_a thing_n of_o the_o lord_n 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administer_v i_o proclaim_v all_o that_o be_v not_o prepare_v depart_v you_o that_o be_v prepare_v stay_n these_o after_o the_o departure_n of_o the_o rest_n i_o look_v upon_o as_o prepare_v in_o some_o measure_n and_o so_o i_o go_v on_o h._n if_o you_o do_v administer_v the_o sacrament_n to_o the_o unregenerate_a tr._n no_o no_o say_v thus_o to_o the_o ignorant_a and_o profane_a h._n you_o minister_v the_o holy_a sacrament_n to_o the_o ignorant_a and_o profane_a b._n you_o do_v well_o to_o prompt_v one_o another_o prove_v it_o or_o if_o you_o please_v i_o answer_v person_n may_v be_v ignorant_a and_o profane_a either_o in_o the_o eye_n of_o god_n that_o search_v the_o secret_n of_o the_o heart_n or_o in_o the_o eye_n of_o the_o church_n that_o look_v upon_o the_o outward_a appearance_n in_o the_o former_a sense_n some_o of_o we_o may_v be_v such_o we_o be_v not_o so_o in_o the_o latter_a tr._n pray_v mr._n b._n let_v i_o ask_v you_o do_v you_o know_v every_o one_o that_o you_o minister_v the_o sacrament_n to_o b._n i_o will_v give_v you_o a_o ingenuous_a answer_n i_o do_v not_o know_v every_o one_o tr._n o_o how_o can_v you_o justify_v yourself_o in_o this_o w._n why_o here_o be_v a_o confession_n of_o the_o fault_n we_o lie_v to_o your_o charge_n you_o give_v the_o sacrament_n you_o know_v not_o to_o who_o we_o have_v do_v now_o h._n we_o thank_v the_o lord_n brethren_n that_o the_o good_a work_n be_v so_o happy_o bring_v to_o a_o conclusion_n this_o day_n you_o hear_v what_o he_o confess_v he_o do_v not_o know_v some_o of_o they_o who_o they_o be_v and_o yet_o he_o shall_v know_v they_o to_o be_v visible_a saint_n a_o good_a shepherd_n know_v his_o flock_n b._n hold_v a_o little_a my_o master_n and_o take_v i_o with_o you_o have_v patience_n while_o i_o give_v in_o my_o answer_n i_o do_v not_o know_v they_o and_o yet_o i_o do_v know_v they_o i_o know_v they_o not_o some_o of_o they_o by_o name_n i_o have_v no_o familiar_a acquaintance_n with_o they_o i_o do_v not_o know_v they_o in_o civil_a relation_n but_o i_o do_v know_v they_o and_o own_v they_o in_o a_o religious_a relation_n i_o know_v no_o hurt_n by_o they_o tr._n you_o know_v no_o hurt_n by_o they_o alas_o alas_o poor_a creature_n b._n hear_v i_o out_o i_o do_v not_o only_o know_v no_o hurt_n by_o they_o but_o i_o know_v much_o good_a by_o they_o their_o visible_a and_o cheerful_a profession_n of_o the_o true_a christian_a faith_n their_o reverend_a behaviour_n at_o their_o prayer_n their_o humble_a confession_n of_o sin_n earnest_a desire_n of_o pardon_n hearty_a promise_n of_o new_a obedience_n a_o appearance_n of_o faith_n and_o repentance_n join_v with_o charity_n and_o thankfulness_n satisfy_v i_o very_o well_o for_o the_o time_n till_o i_o find_v they_o do_v deceive_v i_o h._n you_o be_v deceive_v with_o too_o good_a a_o opinion_n of_o they_o if_o i_o dare_v i_o can_v say_v somewhat_o against_o some_o particular_n b._n god_n forbid_v you_o shall_v have_v hurt_v for_o tell_v any_o one_o a_o necessary_a truth_n for_o my_o part_n i_o think_v and_o hope_v the_o best_a of_o all_o that_o promise_v fair_a i_o judge_v according_a to_o charity_n i_o know_v one_o may_v act_v the_o saint_n to_o day_n and_o the_o devil_n to_o morrow_n let_v i_o tell_v you_o it_o be_v the_o judgement_n of_o our_o church_n after_o the_o father_n that_o christ_n deliver_v the_o sacrament_n to_o judas_n also_o who_o go_v out_o immediate_o after_o to_o betray_v he_o and_o before_o that_o be_v discover_v by_o his_o master_n to_o be_v a_o devil_n you_o will_v not_o grant_v this_o however_o you_o know_v peter_n himself_o that_o be_v so_o zealous_a upon_o trial_n the_o very_a next_o day_n deny_v his_o master_n yea_o deny_v he_o