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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	ancient_a	church_n	father_n	2,262	5	4.7708	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A68566	A briefe discouery of the vntruthes and slanders (against the true gouernement of the Church of Christ) contained in a sermon, preached the 8. [sic] of Februarie 1588. by D. Bancroft and since that time, set forth in print, with additions by the said authour. This short ansvver may serue for the clearing of the truth, vntill a larger confutation of the sermon be published.	Penry, John, 1559-1593.; Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610. Sermon preached at Paules Crosse the 9. of Februarie. Selections.	1590 (1590)	STC 19603; ESTC S114383	37,378	68

them that are sanctified And indeed we hold it is to bee feared of all those who refuse to stoope vnto the Lord in this point of their obedience that they haue not as yet felt a right what true religion meaneth Therefore we warne them to enter into their own soules and examine what true sence they haue of the glory of God and his fauour towardes them And as for the most of them that are enemies vnto this gouernment of Christ Iesus it were to be wished both in regard of the Church and common wealth that their very liues and conuersations did not shew them to be either meere Atheistes or carnall and prophane men that onely content themselues to haue godlinesse in their monthes though their hearts haue denied the power thereof and are so farre from the true feeling of Christian religion as D. Bancroft is from true and vpright dealing who saith that we account all those amongst whom this Ecclesiasticall Sinode as he calleth it is not erected to say of our sauiour Christ we wil not haue this man to raigne ouer vs. The which speech how vntrue it is may appeare by that which is alreadie spoken As for the conclusion which in the latter ende of this page hee alledgeth out of the Demonstration of Discipline I wish with all my heart if it please the Lord that neither hee nor any other enemies of the cause may feele the waight thereof Whereas in this place page 9. line 26. you would seeme to make the Demonstration of discipline to be the fountain whence you haue deriued the most of the thinges hitherto discussed the reader is to make no other account of that speech of yours then to marke it vppe vpon the score of your vntruthes for you shall find no such matter in that booke D. BANCROFT page 10. sect 2. 3. There was neuer ancient father as I thinke since the Apostles time that did thus expound the place Mat. 18. Besides there hath bin a diuers gouernement from this vsed in the Church euer since the Apostles time and these men doe confesse that this gouernment long before the counsel of Nice began greatly to decay and that since the sayd counsel T. C. it was neuer heard of in the world vntil these their times ANSVVERE They must needs be childish and absurd fathers that should expounde the place according vnto your interpretation The reader hath seene that you haue alleadged your owne comment and not ours Neither do we runne vnto fathers when we would try the truth but vnto the scriptures themselues And yet wee thankefully acknoweledg the helpes which their labours haue affoarded vnto vs but so as wee held it a maine point of popery to holde that a place is not well interpreted because no such exposition can be founde in the writings of the ancients Besides we account your brest for no librarie wherein al the interpretations of the fathers vppon this place may be sene Chrisostom if that were any thinge vnto the truth doth expound tel the church to be Chrisost vpon Math. tel the gouernors of the Church which comprehendeth in a manner al that wee affirme We know Di●●rephes to haue bin in the church euen in the Apostles times 3. Iohn 9. and wee are assured he could neuer be gotten out of it since the first hower that he set footing therein And therefore we cannot greatly maruel though euen in their time there had bin a diuers gouernment from this of the lords appointment which we labour for For euen in the Apostles time the mistery of iniquitie beganne to worke But for al this 2. Thes 2.7 wee would haue you prooue your bolde assertion that euer since the Apostles time there hath bin a diuers gouernment from this and when you haue done you must vnderstande that the question betweene vs is not so much de facto as de jure not so much whether there was a diuers gouernment c. as whether that diuers gouernement was lawfull or not We must needs confesse indeed that not onelie this gouernement of the Church but also many other points of greatest waight in religion fell to decay long before the counsell of Nice But that M. Carthwright or any man els of iudgement hath affirmed that this gouernement was neuer heard of since the sayde counsell vntill these our times it is an impudent vntruth You quote T. C. on the margent but neither name the page nor the booke where hee should affirme this which you woulde seeme to publish vnder his name The reader is to marke this is an other of shifte which is so much the more shamles as you ground your next speech vppon it as vpon a matter graunted you without any further question D. BANCROFT page 10. 11. A very strange matter if it were true that Christ should erect a forme of gouernment to continue vntil his comming and that the same should neuer be once put in practise for the space of 1500. yeares or at the least to take them at their best that the gouernment kingdome of Christ should then be ouerthrowne when the diuinity of his person the honour of his kingly authors c. was established at the counsel of Nice ANSVVERE Let the reader marke this for another of your shifts And is it not also a strange case that you wil erect a building of your owne stuffe and workmanship and then cal your auditors to gaze and wonder at the absurd deformitie of it Why there are non but your selfe and such as you are that affirme this gouernement to haue wanted execution for the space of 1500. yeares Neither doe we holde or thinke the gouernement and kingdome of Christ to be ouerthrowne at the time of the counsel of Nice And you haue in this point giuen your selfe the shamfull lye in the 100. page of your Sermon where you alleadge that M. Cartwright doth affirme this eldership to haue bene most flourishing vnder Constantine the Emperour by whome the Nicene councell was called I referre the reader vnto the place and wish you though you cannot be gotten to leaue forging of vntruthes against vs yet for your owne credit sake not to forget the chiefe ma●ime of your profession which is that it behooueth a lying tong to be joyned with a good memorie We doe not say that the gouernment and kingdome of Christ is wholly ouerthrowne where the Eldership is wanting and therfore your speech tending that way doth rather point out the essentiall all qualitie of your nature then any conclusion of ours And admit it were true that the Eldership lay in the dust at the time of the Nicen counsel and was neuer heard of in Christendoome from that hower vntill this latter age Will you conclude thereof that therefore it is not nowe to bee receiued that is Poperie For the holy men there met togeather suffered many other substantiall and most necessarie points of doctrine to be buried as they had bene

to atchieue his purpose And that is neither to father vpon vs such thinges as we neuer maintained nor yet to bring the testimonies of men to oppugn our conclusions whose grounds he is not able to shake but to set downe that which we holde indeed and with reasons rather to answere our premisses then with authorities to strike at our conclusions The contrary dealing may colour and white line the breaches of his cause for a time but in the end it will prooue to be the ruine thereof Vnconscionable and sophistical dealing can neuer be able to stand any long time He and his Masters would gladly beare the Magistrat in hand that we deny the congregations in England where the word is truly preached and the sacraments rightly administred to be the visible churches of God wheras the truth is that the Bishops and not we doe maintaine this error Let the reader judge whether I truly accuse them by this which followeth The visible church of God wheresoeuer it bee hath the power of binding ●nd loosing annexed vnto it as our sauiour Christ teacheth vs. Mathew 18. which authority is so essentially tied vnto the visible church that wheresoeuer this power is to bee found there the church of Christ is also visible Our Bb. are scismatickes and deny the assemblie of England to be visible church of God booke of Martins page 5. 6. and wheresoeuer there is a visible church there this authority cannot bee denied to be The which point that reuerend father M. Iohn Fox teacheth more at large Now the reader cannot be ignorant that our Bishops wil neuer grant that the visible congregations in England ought to haue this power of binding and loosing for then should they manifest themselues to bee professed tyrants The crime therefore of Scisme and Donatisme which M. Bancroft and the Prelates would fasten vpon vs doth justly cl●aue vnto them selues And if any of our poore brethren be caried away to thinke otherwise of the congregations of England which inioy the woorde truly preached and the right vse of the Sacrament● VVe cease not to pray that the Lord would reforme their iudgements But woe bee vnto our Bishops which are the cause of this their stumbling and maintainers of their error For the pore brethren doe holde nothing in this point but that which the learned fathers as M. Bancroft calleth them haue decreed And you shall see in this Treatise that he seeth no reason why Popery being now abollished Sermon pag. 3 wee should not reply vppon the determinations of these fathers as other men in time past of a great iudgement as we are haue done Let our Bishops then and their vpholders whisper into the eare of the Magistrate what they will it shall bee prooued in the end that they are the scismatickes and not we It shall appear that they are growing to make a body of their owne wherewith the church of God in a while if they hold on their course can haue no mote to do then in times past in had with the scismaticall Donatists The deuill indeede hath within this twelmoneth shewed himselfe to bee grieuously wounded in their persons because he hath raged so mightily as these 32. yeares his furie was neuer seene so great against the truth as at this present That vile and scurrilous Palmphlet An almond a Patrot latey suffered to come abroad by their priuity if not allowance and in their defence doth euidently shew that sathan feeleth the power and sway which he was wont to bear by vertue of the hierarchie to be greatly weakned And because he feareth that his time vnder their gouernment cannot be long therefore he meaneth now to infect the aire at once with all his contagions The strength which they get by such leud and filthie stuffe the discredit which thereby they worke either vnto the cause or the men and women whome they suffer to bee so vnworthilie traduced is not other then it were to bee wished that seeing they will needs be filthy they would publish such another booke euery day That then it might appeare indeede whose sonnes they are And this is all the confutation that I thinke so godles leud a scrole to deserue For thy selfe good reader thou seest the time of triall to be now at hand euen at the doore If thou meanest to be partaker of Christes kingdome after this life take heede that neither the feare of men nor the loue of the world draw thee to shrinke from any part of that truth which the Lorde hath reueiled in his word The Lord saith that whosoeuer shall be ashamed of him or his worde that is any part of his truth before men Luk. 9.26 of him shall the sonne of man be ashamed when he commeth in his glory VVell I thinke it now no time to dally with the Lord and his word but let vs craue strength at his hand that we stand vnrebukeable vnto the day of his appearance A BRIEFE DISCOVERY OF THE VNTRVTHES AND SLANDERS AGAINST Reformation and the fauourers thereof contained in D. Bancrofts Sermon D. BANCROFTS TEXT 1. Iohn 4.1 Dearely beloued beleeue not euery spirite b●●●●ie the spirites whether they be of God For many false Prophets are gone out into the world ANSVVERE IT hath bene the ancient custome of Sathan and his instruments in all ages I answere not the word but the abuse of the word to abuse the holy worde and name of God as a ground vnto all their vngodly proceedings against the Lorde and his Saints that there by they might haue some colour of their persecutions and wicked attempts against the truth and professors thereof That I bee not tedious in a matter too apparant hence it is that in all the condemnations of the holy Martyrs of Christ by that Romane Tyrant We see all their processes to begin in the name of God the accusasions laid to the charge of the Saints to bee so boulstred out with the testimonies of holy Scripture as though the spirite of God had none to condemne of heresie scisme sedition and treason saue onely the members and messengers of Christ Iesus And therefore M. Bancroft if you begin with Scripture and as I may say in the name of God begin to speake against God against his blessed verity and people you doe but your kind in treading the steppes of your predecessours You haue your forefathers the Scribes and Pharises that Antichristian beast of Rome his Cardinals Bishops Legates inquisitors and all others that haue coloured their garments with the bloud of the Lords chosen for your presidents and examples The delusion of your course could not bee so great if you did shewe your selfe in your colours Your Sermon declareth that your affection serueth you rather to fight against the truth with fire and fagot then by sober writing or speaking to stand in the defence of your cause Well you deale against false Prophetes Scismatiques giddy spirites disturbers of the church enemies