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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88107	The nevv quere, and determination upon it, by Mr. Saltmarsh lately published, to retard the establishment of the Presbyteriall government, examined, and shewed to be unseasonable, unsound, and opposite to the principles of true religion, and state. Whereunto is annexed a censure of what he hath produced to the same purpose, in his other, and later booke, which he calleth The opening of Master Prinnes Vindication. And an apologeticall narrative of the late petition of the Common Councell and ministers of London to the Honourable Houses of Parliament, with a justification of them from the calumny of the weekly pamphleters. / By John Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1645 (1645)	Wing L1885; Thomason E311_24; ESTC R200462	96,520	124

their opinions and forward to engage in termes of contradiction and when they are once heated with a fond affection to their owne fancies which is the more blowne up by the breath of an opposite they are not masters of their owne words nor can they exercise any reasonable rule either upon their spirits or speeches and sometimes they second their precipitancie in both with such a pertinacie of will and stoutnesse of stomach that they choose rather to cast firebrands about to put Nations and Churches into a dangerous combustion then quietly to compose any personall quarrell of their owne though never so inconsiderately stirred up by them this is the extremitie of that malignant and mischievous practice which God professeth especially to hate Prov. 6.19 And for the opprobrious termes he complaineth of if he had the patience to beare them when he heard them and did not reciprocate one contumely for another as some say he did he should have had the prudence and to that should have advised him had I been of his counsell to have buried them in silence and not for that which was but whispered in the eare to propose it to publique view that every one may read the reproach of K. and F. put upon him in print SECT VIII The Argument against the speedy setting up of the Presbyteriall Government taken from Christs practise answered A Second exception reduced to the example of Christ in his practise is that * § 3. p. 4. Christ Iesus himselfe could as easily have setled his Government by miracle as any can now by Civill power if there had beene such a primary or morall necessitie of establishing it so soone upon a people scarce enlightened for any part of it But we see the contrary first in himselfe he taught long and Iohn before him and so the Disciples and the gifts for Government were not given till he ascended and the modell for Government was not brought forth but by degrees and as people fell in and were capable of the yoke and would mould more easily to the Commandements of Christ and whether then or no is yet a Question which some have sit the debates to though not with me who am fully perswaded of the power of order which the Apostle ioyed to behold though a power with as little dominion in government as tradition in worship Answer 1. The acts and times for the Divine providence towards his Church are various and the reasons of them many times reserved to God he could no doubt have governed his Church in the first age of the world by the scepter of his written word but there was no Scripture till God wrote his Decalogue or ten Commandements in Tables of stone Exod. 31.18 and if the Booke of Genesis were written before it was yet after the birth of Moses for he was the Penman of it who was not borne till the yeare of the world 2373. all this while God had his Church and no written Law for the government of it Yet when he brought the Israelites out of Egypt which was in the yeare 2454 the next yeare after he gave direction for the building of a Tabernacle and to the Morall Law forementioned added Lawes Ceremoniall and Iudiciall divers of which were not to be put in execution untill their coming into Canaan which was well neere fortie yeares afterward so farre was he before-hand with the government of his Church of the new edition 2. Whereas he saith that Iesus Christ could have as easily setled the government of his Church by miracle as any can now by Civill power we grant it yea and more that he could have done it without a miracle and yet more that he did so when he chose Apostles and gave them the keyes of the Kingdome of heaven Matth. 16.19 for remission and retaining of sinnes Ioh. 10.23 and set downe a rule of graduall proceeding with offenders Matt. 18.15 16 17. 3. If it be said that this was late in the Ministery of our Saviour and therefore we must take his example not onely for the thing it selfe but for the time this will make more for the Anabaptisticall delay of Baptisme then for delay in Discipline or Government for he was not baptized untill he was about thirty yeares of age Luk. 3.23 but he began to set up a government of his Church within the compasse of his publique Ministery which at the most lasted but foure yeares space and many learned men confine it to three yeares and an halfe or thereabouts As for Iohn Baptist his time was shorter for he was beheaded in the second of the foure yeares forementioned nor did it belong to his Office to set up a government in the Evangelicall Church but to prepare the way of the Lord by preaching repentance unto the people Matth. 3.3 Isa 40.3 4. Whereas he saith the gifts of government were not given till Christ ascended to that it may be answered 1. That he ascended fortie three dayes after the period of his publique Ministration which added to the yeares forementioned make but small difference as to the government in question 2. That though he gave them an increase of gifts for government as he did for preaching he put his Apostles upon neither of those offices without competent gifts and qualifications for them 5. For the model of government which he saith was brought forth by degrees as people fell in and were capable of the yoke I would know what model he meaneth if he meane any model of Christ or his Apostles as it appeareth he doth for saith he against Mr. Colemans opinion I am fully assured of a power of order which the Apostle reioyced to behold Col. 2.5 I aske whether this be given by tradition or contained in the Scripture I suppose he will say of Government as well as of Worship not by tradition but by the written word and if so though it were but young in the time of Christ or his Apostles it is very ancient to us for we have no part of the written word but it is fifteene hundred yeares of age at least why then should that which is so old in constitution be thought too soone to be put in execution at the present especially since besides the direction for it in the Scripture we have had these many yeares severall patterns of it in many reformed Churches in the Christian world Nor doe our brethren of Scotland though they assert it from Scripture to be the will of God expect that the Parliament should establish it Jure Divino * M. Gelaspi● his brotherly examination of M. Colemans Sermon p. 32 33. If they shall in a Parliamentary and Legislative way establish that thing which is really and in it selfe agreeable to the word of God though they doe not declare it to be the will of Iesus Christ they are satisfied If it be best as his words imply that the government be brought in by degrees so it is in the present reformation for it

Malone in this manner The Booke indeed is presented to the world farre later then my expectation which hath beene ready as it now comes forth these many yeares But the Presse was still employed and occupied with other things by them that had command He that herein imputes sloth or negligence to me knows me not For if I should give but an Indiculus of my studies Et vacet annales nostrorum audire laborum I might make the Jesuite and a thousand more ashamed of their idlenesse Farre be it from me to brag and beast who have ever abhorred all shadow of vain-glory remembring Solomons words Let another man praise thee and not thine owne mouth Prov. 27. And therefore leaving it to the disposer and prosperer of all mine endevours I content and feast my selfe with the suffrage of my conscience as desirous for mine owne part to have something more then the world knows Though I might appeale if need were to the grand Reader of Europe as best acquainted from the very first with me and my studies But what the world knows give me leave to speake that it may appeare that this worke could never fall into fuller hands or to a man more imployed who could allot no more time to it then what must be gained succisivis horis Pro Archia Never could Tully speake more truly of his abstracted life and importunate lucubrations I expounded the whole Bible through in the Colledge in dayly Lectures and in the chiefest bookes ordinarily a verse a day we need not Origens 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this work we held almost fifteene yeares A few yeares before this was ended I beganne likewise the second Exposition of the whole Bible in the Church and within tenne yeares have ended all the New Testament excepting one booke and a piece all the Prophets all Solomon and Iob so that my Answer to the Iesuite did in part concurre with both these labours What preaching what expounding this is my constant practise neither sicknesse nor any thing else withdrawing me thrice every Sabbath for the farre greater part of the yeare once every Holy-day often twice besides many other extraordinary sudden occasions Adde to these my weekely Lectures as Professor in the Controversies and my Answers to all Bellarmine in word and writing Where in above eight yeares I finished his Tome of the seven Sacraments for there we beganne his last Tome in sixe yeares and now sundry years in the Tome or Tomes remaining What breathing time had I in all these imployments or how could this worke be committed to fuller hands And though there be but a few who are so eminent in parts and in performances so laborious yet the most of those Ministers who are to beare a part in the Discipline of the Church either are or if the Refomation proceed will be so well qualified that they may give due attendance upon preaching and yet have competent time for other duties whereto as men as Christians or as Ministers whether in the Church or Consistory they are engaged And Mr. Pr. knowes by experience in his owne profession that many are able being habituated in Book-learning and Law-cases and pleading of Causes upon a little warning to speake more and better to the purpose then many others by long preparation and he himselfe we see hath time enough not onely to plead his Clients causes but to write so many books as were they bound up together would make divers very competent Volumes and while a good Minister and I hope we shall have more store of such then in former times is exercised in Church Government he is not quite out of office for preaching and instructing for he may have just occasion and faire opportunitie ministerially to admonish those that are convened either as parties to be censured or as witnesses to be examined in the Ecclesiasticall Consistorie SECT XVII The Objection of in efficacie for holinesse of life in such as live under the Presbytery answered THe second particular he produceth in Mr. Prinnes name against the Presbytery is * M. Salim in his opening of 〈◊〉 the Vindication p. 23. 24. and in the Vindication it self p. 57. the want of efficacie in it where it is established which he exemplifieth by instances in severall reformed Churches elsewhere and comparing England with them he saith That the practicall power of godlinesse is generally more eminently visible in the lives of the generalitie of the people more strict pious lesse scandalous and licentious in our English Congregations where there hath beene powerfull preaching without the practise of excommunication or suspension from the Sacrament then in the reformed Churches of France Germany Denmarke or Scotland for which I appeale saith he to all Travellours and Independent Ministers who have lived in the Netherlands who will and must acknowledge that in the sanctification of the Lords Day strictnesse of life and exemplarinesse of conversation our English Ministers and Protestants excell all others These be Mr. Pr. his words upon which Mr. Saltm maketh this inference viz. That the Vindication though it pretend in the generall face of it to be for the Presbyterie yet it is cleare that in aspersing the Government in all those reformed Kingdomes where the practise and power of it hath beene it secretly wounds the glory of it in the opinion of the world and though it pull not downe the Government quite yet it Weakens the posts or judgements of men on which it stands Answer 1. By what I have read of Mr. Prinnes writings what I have observed of him my selfe and received by report of such as are best acquainted with his mind and wayes I conceive him to be so true an Israelite without all guile that he will not pretend one thing when he intends another 2. For the Assertion it selfe there be two things to be considered 1. Whether it be true or no. 2. If so what may be the reason of it that alleadged or some other For the first Whether the Assertion be true or no The resolution of this Question must be made with difference of times for Countreys as well as particular persons have their variations in Religion not onely for profession of the faith but for practise of holinesse as in King James his dayes upon the Declaration and libertie granted upon the Sunday that is the name in the Declaration and it is the fittest name for a licence of profanenesse for sports and pastimes renewed by the King that now is the people of England were more loose and licentious on that day then now they are upon the burning of that Book and an Ordinance of Parliament set out for the more holy observation of the Sabbath The Application of this distinction may resolve the observation severall waies and we may say that sometimes one people or Nation sometimes another and the same people at one time more then at another may be more conformable in practise to the principles of piety And as there is a

ought to settle the government of the Ecclesiasticall according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches that it may the more securely enjoy its owne peace And for that he saith of the toleration of the Protestants of France the originall of it was not out of any principle of compliance of all Religions with the Civill State but because the King himselfe Henry the fourth having beene a Protestant and recovering his right by the Armes of Protestants though he wickedly revolted from his Religion and wretchedly suffered for his Apostasie he could doe no lesse in humanity then allow them the libertie of Religion which hath beene continued unto them not upon Mr. S. his ground before mentioned but because the Protestants are the trustiest friends of the Crowne of France and most engaged to defend it against the interests and designes of the Spaniard whose longing after an universall Monarchy is carried with the strongest degree of concupiscence towards the Crowne of France as the fayrest marke of his boundlesse ambition Now though his argument fall farre short of probable he concludes with assurance Sure I am saith he that State is most free where the conscience is least straitned If he meane most free in indulgence by letting loose the reigns to all Religions it is true and if he allow of such a freenesse as by his ensuing words it seemes he doth he complieth with the Authour of the Booke of the Bloody Tenet who holdeth as absurdly as impiously that it is the will and command of God that since the coming of his Sonne the Lord Jesus a permission of the most Paganish Iewish Turkish The sixt Proposition of the twelve prefixed before the Book published Anno 1644. and Antichristian consciences and worships be granted to all men in all Nations and Countries and they are onely to be fought against with the sword which is onely in soule matters able to conquer to wit the sword of the Spirit the word of God If he meane where there is such licentious allowance of all Religions there the State is freest from commotion and distraction manifold experience in severall Ages and Countreys proveth the contrary He concludeth this exception against the settling of the Government with the Parable of the Tares and the Wheat wherein he closeth with the forementioned Authour cap. 18 c. of his wicked booke But withall if there must be such a mixture of the tares with the wheat what warrant is there for his party to pluck the wheat from the tares nay the wheat from the wheat for they leave as good Christians as they take in their new gathering of Churches A third Remora against the setting up of Government of prudent or politick consideration is this * § 11. p. 6. Our parties or dissenting Brethren being now together and clasped by interest against the common enemy this foundation of common unitie is such as may draw in both affections and iudgements if not too suddenly determined into hereticks and schismaticks It is possible while a Controversie is long suspended and time given for conclusion of things opinions may be soone at peace A fire let alone may dye out under that wood which stirred in would kindle it The contentions of brethren are like the strong barres of a Castle and a brother offended is harder to be wonne then a strong citie Prov. 18 19. Answer The danger of a common enemie is many times and should be alwayes a cause of suspension of particular antipathies the wild beasts in the Arke were reconciled with the tame while without it the overwhelming flood was round about but this clasping of dissenting brethren in the Campe upon present undertakings must not leave us loose to division in the Citie for that as Mr. Saltmarsh himselfe acknowledgeth * M. Saltmarsh practise of policy l. 4. pol. 12. is the mother of confusion and he * Idem l. 2. of his Book of the Practice of policy pol. 123. p. 288. calls private Conventicles the very Parliaments of factious deliberations and resolutions and saith they are to be observed and dispersed And by the Text he citeth viz. Act. 4.26 he meaneth such factions as are adverse or opposite to true Religion and for expedition in repressing the perill of such combinations he giveth this advice which if he had now thought of I suppose he would not have made such a dilatory discourse as he hath done * M. Saltmarsh his practise of policy l. 2. pol. 124. p. 289. Kill factions betimes as Herod did the Infants in their cradles if you let them grow they may prove too strong for you when sedition is at an age it is more able a little Physick will disperse a gathering disease which if it knot hath more danger and difficulty it was enough to make the servant bad when he thought with himselfe My Lord delayeth his coming Matth. 24.48 And truly the delay in setting up a Government hath beene an occasion of the multiplication both of heresies and schismes and of an increase both of number and courage of such as are ingaged in them and the longer the delay is drawne on the more difficult will the reducement be for men who are disposed to div●sion make account that such as forbeare the remedy are either inclinable to them or unable or afraid to displease them and by such conceits they foment their owne sancies and heighten their spirits to contumacie and contempt whereof there is but too much evidence given in many that oppose the settlement of Religion by establishing Church Government And whereas he saith It is possible while a Controversie is long suspended and time given for conclusion of things opinions may be sooner at peace We answer First that possibility is but a poore plea against probability nay against particular experience for it is obvious to any mans view that will observe the method of proceeding and manner of prevailing of the dissenting party that while their brethren have endevoured by all amicable carriage towards them and by courteous compliance with them to worke and win them to a brotherly accord they have driven on their owne designe with a politique activity and have gained more by the slownesse of their adversaries pace then by the goodnesse of their owne cause though therein they would be thought to have the advantage He addeth A fire let alone may dye out under that wood which stirred in would kindie it But when a fire is kindled not in greene but in dry wood which will easily burne will men let it alone till it quench of it selfe or shall we thinke that the setling of a Government is as the bellowes to a fire to blow it up into a flame No wise man can imagine either the one or the other and the contrary is plaine by manifold examples of the Anabaptists and other seditious Sectaries in Germany for whom at first a Guy de Bres against the errour of the

advers haeres l. 3. c. 3. post eum Eusebius when he suddenly got out of the Bath so soone as the Heretick Cerinthus came into it fearing it would fall upon his head and theirs who accompanied him and so it did so soone as Iohn was departed out of it And there is in some an aversion from Heresie Schisme and Profanenesse out of hatred of whatsoever is opposite to the glory of God and to the safety of man and this hate is a great evidence not of a causelesse jealousie but of a true zeale and love of God and man Hence was it that a Iren. advers haeres l. 3. c. 3. Polycarp the Disciple of Iohn a Scholler of a religious temper like his Master was so adverse to Marcion the Heretick that when scraping acquaintance of him he asked him whether he knew him or no he answered he knew him to be the eldest sonne of Satan and that b Hilary against Auxent p. 217. Hilary speaking against Auxentius an Arian Heretick said he would never speake otherwise of him then as of a Devil incarnate and that Hierome c Hieron in Psal 5. Tom. 8. p. 4. called Hereticks men of blood who daily shed the blood of soules and d Hieron Pr●log in Dial. advers Lucif Tom. 2. p. 263. averred that as he had never spared Hereticks so he never would and that he studiously desired to make those his enemies who were enemies to the Church There be many other causes then besides a Popish or Prelaticall jealousie arising out of guilt or mistrust of the weakenesse or crasinesse of the cause which make the godly desirous of a prevention o● suppression of Heresie and Schisme and sincerely to endevour the compleat establishment of puritie and unitie in the Church of God But I will take up with that one of the Lords and Commens in Parliament Assembled their Ordinance of the 20. of October 1645. concerning rules for receiving of the S●●rament of the Lords Supper which is the Obligation of Religious gratitude to God piously acknowledged in this patheticall expression The Lords and Commons considering the wonderfull providence of God in calling them to this great and difficult worke of reforming and purging his Church and people his guidance and manifest protection of them in it doe acknowledge that never any of his servants since the foundation of the world had more high and strong engagements heartily and sincerely to endevour the compleat establishment of puritie and unitie in the Church of God then they have they doe therefore require all Ministers and Elders c. And if Mr. Saltm had well considered who were engaged for the establishment of Church Government and how farre before he published his New Quere he would not surely have so farre undervalued their Pietie and Prudence as to compare them to Papists and Papall Prelates and melancholy men who thinke every thing they meet will kill them I will conclude my Reply to his Answer with a piece of his a M. Sal●m pol. 201. p. 174. own politick advice in three particulars 1. To suspect plausible and faire language in him whose person may render him suspicious and such for the most part are seducing Schismaticks and Hereticks who by good words and faire speeches deceive the heart of the simple Rom. 16.18 2. b Ibid. pol. 228. To study to remove the occasions of faction and heresies 3. c Ibid. pol. 246. In factious stirres if it be requisite to muster forces with all expedition for appalling them and thus saith he you weigh downe the weight of one scale with the weight of another And it is no lesse a part of prudence to prevent them then to supplant them Vpon such principles as these in part is Church Government ordained and there being so many and stirring factions it is with as much speed as with conveniencie may be to be settled as a remedy against them There is nothing more in his Answer but a Text out of the Revelation it is Chap. 18. v. 1. which with the word For is brought in as a proofe of what was last spoken and as a seale to close up the totall summe of his resolution of this New Quere thus For the Angel that cometh downe from heaven hath great power and the earth is lightne● with his glory But this serves to none other purpose but to shew that as he began so he endeth his paper with misapplication of Scripture SECT XIII An additionall Answer to some exceptions of Mr. Saltm taken out of Mr. Prinnes Vindication against the present establishment of Church Government in his late Booke entituled The opening of Mr. Prinnes new Booke called a VINDICATION IN this Booke which he nameth The opening of Master Prinnes new Booke called a Vindication the Authour hath opened himselfe plainly to be an Independent at least and opposite to the Presbyteriall Government which he hath formerly disavowed when in conference with him I desired him to declare to which part he inclined as Section the first hath beene observed I shall present the Reader with so much of the matter in this New Booke as I find symbolicall to the sense and resolution of his New Quere the summe whereof is in his last answer of P. to C. of which two letters representing two persons in conference Dialogue wise it is very probable P. may stand for Presbyterian but for C. to me it is very doubtfull whether it be put for the name of my reverend Brother Mr. Coleman whom he citeth in the fourth page of his New Quere or whether C. stand for Congregationall or if I did not conceive him to be of a better spirit then I have observed in many Antipresbyterian Scriblers I would thinke C. stood for Christian with intimation that the Presbyterian government is Antichristian but I cannot censure so of him especially since he professeth to honour Presbyterians as beleevers and brethren in the Lord brethren as Christians not his brethren as Presbyters if it be true which I heare that he preacheth not as a Presbyter but as a gifted brother but this but by the way that which in this Book we are now to observe is that P. as convinced and converted by C. is made to say P. Well I am at this time well perswaded p. 23. Of the opening and having heard all this for my part I cannot but see that in settling things suddenly upon this Kingdome and things thus questionable and unwarrantable in the way of administration and a Kingdome so full of impenitent and scandalous sinners as Parochiall Congregations generally are there is danger of great sinne and great trouble Answer This may be true if government whereby the scandalous will be severed from the religious be either not established at all or too long deferred but that it may not be set up at all or not so soone as is necessarie he brings some proofes from Mr. Prinnes Vindication which he endevours to disprove and