first our Gospel and Christendom from Rome though the Brittans who inhabited this Land before us differing as much from us as Antipodes had some of them been Christned long before us And yet the Christendom that prevailed and lasted among the Brittans even they also as well as we had it from Rome too mark this likewise But you reply Though persons from Rome did first plant Christianity among the Saxons was it the Popes Religion they taught did the Pope first finde it out or did they Baptise in the name of the Pope Good Sir it was the Popes Religion not invented by him as your cavil fondly imagines but owned professed and put in practice by him and from him derived unto us by his missioners You adde Did not the Gospel come to Rome as well as to us for it was not first preached there Sir properly speaking it came not so to Rome as it came to us For one of the twelve fountains nay two of the thirteen and those the largest and greatest was transferred to Rome which they watered with their blood we had never any such standing fountain of Christian Religion here but only a stream derived to us from thence My second assertion must be From whom we first received our Religion with them we must still abide This principle as it is never delivered by Fiat Lux though you put it upon me so is it in the latitude it carries and wherin you understand it absolutely fals never thought of by me and indeed impossible For how can we abide with them in any truth who may perhaps not abide in it themselvs Great part of Flanders was first converted by Englishmen and yet are they not obliged either by Fiat Lux or any lux whatsoever to accompany the English in our now present wayes If Rome first taught us Christianity she may then rather plead a power to guide us than we her This or some such like thing I might speak and rationally speak it But that we or any other should be obliged still to abide or rather to follow them who first taught us Religion though they should themselvs forsake their own doctrin as you would make me speak is a piece of folly never came into my thoughts And you may be ashamed to put it upon me Why do you not set down my own words and the page of my book where I delivered this principle My third must be The Roman Religion is still the same This also I do no where formally express nor enter into any such common place You will say I suppose it But doth this justifie you who say here that I assert it as a principle let it then be supposed for I do indeed suppose it becaus I know it hath been demonstrativly proved a hundred times over You deny it has bin proved why do you not then disprove it Becaus you decline say you all common places Very good so do I let us com to proper ones You fall then upon my Queries in the end of my book The Roman was once a true flourishing Church and if she ever fell she must fall either by apostasie heresie or schism c. So I speak there And to this you reply that the Church that then was in the Apostles time was indeed true not that Roman Church that now is So so then say I that former true Church must fall then som time or other when did she fall and how did she fall by apostacy heresy or schism Perhaps say you neither way for she might fall by an earthquake Sir we speak not here of any casual or natural downfall or death of mortals by plague famine or earthquake but a moral and voluntary laps in faith What do you speak to me of earthquakes You adde therfor the second time that she might fall by idolatry and so neither by apostacy heresy or schism Good Sir idolatry is a mixt misdemeanour both in faith and manners I speak of the single one of faith And he that falls by idolatry if he keep still some parts of Christianity entire he falls by heresy by apostacy if he keep none At last finding your self pusled in the third place you lay on load She fell say you by apostacy idolatry heresy schism licentiousnes and prophanenes of life And in this you do not much unlike the drunken youth who being bid to hit his masters finger with his when he perceived he could not do it he ran his whole fist against it But did she fall by apostacy By a partial one say you not a total one Good Sir in this division apostasy is set to expres a total relaps in opposition to heresy which is the partial Did she then fall by heresy or partial apostasy in adhering to any error in faith contary to the approved doctrin of the Church Here you smile seriously and tell me that since I take the Roman and Catholik Church to be one she could not indeed adhere to any thing but what she did adhere unto Sir I take them indeed to be one but here I speak ad hominem to one that does not take them so And then if indeed the Roman Church had ever swerved in faith as you say she has and be her self but as another ordinary particular Church as you say she is then might you find som one or other more general Church if any ther were possitively to judg her som Oecumenical councel to condemn her som fathers either greek or latin expresly to write against her as Protestants now do som or other grave solemn autority to censur her or at least som company of beleevers out of whose body she went and from whose faith she fell Since you are no wayes able to assign any of these particulars my Query remains unanswered and the Roman still as flourishing a Church as ever she was The fourth assertion frequently say you pleaded by our Authour is that all things as to religion were ever quiet and in peace before the Protestants relinquishment of the Roman Sea This principle you pretend is drawn out of Fiat Lux not becaus it is there but only to open a door for your self to expatiate into som wide general discours about the many wars distractions and factious altercations that have been aforetime up and down the world in som several ages of Christianity And you therfor say it is frequently pleaded by me becaus indeed I never speak one word of it And it is in truth a fals and fond assertion Though neither you nor I can deny that such as keep unity of faith with that Church can never so long as they hold it fall out upon that account If you had either cited the place or set down my own words they would have spoke their meaning I might say perhaps that our Land had no part of those disturbances upon the account of religion all the thousand years it was Catholik which it hath suffered in one age since or the like But that all
almost from the very beginning of the Church This is not a novelty then As for Papal Superiority the Protestant Centuriators acknowledg That in the fift age of the Church above a thousand years ago the Roman Byshops applyed themselves to establish dominion over other Churches and That they usurped to themselves right of granting priviledges and ornaments to other Archbyshops and That they confirmed Archbyshops in their Sees and That they deposed and excommunicated some and absolved others That they arrogated power to themselves of citing other Archbyshops to declare their caus before them That against a byshop appealing to the Apostolick See nothing should be determined but what the byshop of Rome censured That they appointed their legates in remote Provinces challenging autority to hear and determin all uprising controversies especially in questions of faith That they took upon them power of appointing general councels and to preside therein either by themselves or their deputies rejecting for unlawful those Synods that were called without their authority They also adde in the same century That Roman Byshops had flatterers in those times who affirmed that without permission of the Roman byshop none might undertake the person of a judge Nay forgetting themselves they averre in the same century Collat. 775. That antiquity had attributed the principality of Priesthood to the Roman byshop above all I could alledg also the like confession of Beza Mr. Whitgift and Cartwright but those eminent Protestant Centuriators may serv for all who testifie further in that fifth century That Victor called the Roman Church the head of all Churches That Turbius Asturiensis flattered Pope Leo and acknowledged his superiority That sometimes byshops condemned in Synods appealed to the See of Rome as did say they Flavianus Patriarch of Constantinople in the Councel of Ephesus and that Councels also requested to have their acts confirmed by the byshop of Rome And so indeed did not only Flavianus appeal to Pope Leo but Talida Patriarch of Alexandria deposed by the Emperour Zeno appealed also to Pope Simplicius S. Athanasius to Pope Julius c. So did the Councel of Chalcedon request to be confirmed by Pope Leo the Councel of Carthage by Pope Innocent the Councel of Ephesus by Pope Celestin c. The like superiority of the Roman byshop not only over the neighbour Churches and Byshops of Italy but over remote provinces and the greatest Archbyshops and Patriarks of the world is acknowledged by Protestants to have been practised also before that in the fourth age when the Church first lift up her head by favour of Constantine the great and appeared openly in the world In this age say the Centuriators the mystery of iniquity was not idle And they say also that then the byshop of Rome challenged by ecclesiastical canon the disallowing of those Synods whereat they were absent That Theodoret a greek father who lived about the latter end of this age deposed by the Councel of Ephesus was restored to his byshoprick by Pope Leo unto whom he had made his appeal and that S. Chrysostom appealed likewise to Pope Innocentius who thereupon decreed his adversary Theophilus to be excommunicated and deposed That the famous and ancient Councel of Sardis consisting of above 300. byshops assembled from Spain France Italy Sardinia Greece Egypt Thebais Lybia Palestin Arabia and sundry other places of the world and wherat sundry fathers of the Nicen Councel were present decreed appeals to the byshop of Rome for which fact the Centuriators blame the said councel as do also Osiander Calvin Peter Martyr and others And lastly that wheras the Arrians had expelled Athanasius byshop of Alexandria Paulus byshop of Constantinople and other Catholick byshops of the East and brought their accusation to Julius then byshop of Rome that he might ratifie what they had done he the said byshop summoned Athanasius according to the canons and when he had heard all sides speak he restored Athanasius and his fellow byshops to their own place fretus ecclesiae Romanae praerogativa as the Centurists there speak In the age before this when raging persecution obscured both the government and most of the written monuments of that time yet want there not monuments of the Popes power in confirming deposing restoring byshops Then it was that S. Cyprian as himself testifies moved Pope Stephen by his letters to depose Martianus from his byshoprick and appoint another in his place and he tells us likewise in his fourth epistle how Basilides went to Rome hoping to beguile Pope Stephen then ignorant of the whole matter so to procure himself to be restored to his byshoprick from which he had been justly saith S. Cyprian deposed In this age the foresaid learned Centuriators reprove Pope Stephen for his undertaking to threaten excommunication to Helenus and Firmiltanus and all others throughout Cilicia Cappadocia and Asia for rebaptizing hereticks they reprove also as became Protestants to do both S. Cyprian and Tertullian in this point Tertullian for saying that the keyes were committed to S. Peter and the Church built on him S. Cyprian for affirming the Church to be built upon S. Peter and one chair founded by our Lords voice upon the rock for calling Peters chair the principal Church from whence Priestly unity ariseth and for saying that there ought to be one byshop in the Catholik Church and that the Roman Church ought to be acknowledged of all other for the mother and root of the Catholik Church In the second age the next after the apostles wherof fewer monuments remain yet be there some testimonies of this superiority acknowledged even by Protestants Pope Victor is owned even by our Mr. Whitgift in his defence to be a godly byshop and martyr and the Church in his time in great purity not being long after the apostles times and yet Amandus Polonus a Protestant Professour at Basil sayes in his theological thesis of the same Pope Victor That he shewed a Papal mind and arrogancy and Mr. Spark in his answer against John Albines thinks him somewhat Pope-like to have exceeded his bounds when he took upon him to excommunicate the byshops of the East and Whitaker charges him with exercising jurisdiction upon other Churches So that these three Protestants discerned a papal power even in this second pure age of the Church although they liked it not But the Protestant Centuriators do much except against a saying of S. Irenaeus who lived in this age next after the apostles and might well remember the apostles own lively preachings as Hamelmannus a Protestant writer in his book of traditions speaks both of Irenaeus and Polycarp recorded in the third chapter of his third book Ad hanc enim ecclesiam Romanam propter potentiorem principalit atem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam It is necessary that every other Church saith Irenaeus comply with the Roman by reason of her greater principality First becaus he sayes it is necessary secondly that every Church thirdly for
go those hot and furious imaginations It is a phrase so ordinary with you that when another writer of your own judgment would have told me that my words are false or besides the purpos or the like you in a phrase of your own tell me still that I speak guns and daggers If he mean say you of me p 27. that ther is in good works an intrinsecal worth c. he speaks daggers and doth not himself beleev what he sayes And again p. 94. For men to come now in the end of the world and tell us That we must rest in the autority of the present Church c. is to speak daggers and swords to us upon a confidence that we will suffer our selves to be befoold So likewise p. 340. He tells us say you of me it is good to prefer a Translation before the Originals What shall we do with those men that speak such swords and daggers and are well neither full nor fasting I pray Sir where did you borrow this trope had you it from the school of Aristotle or Mars his camp Thirdly your prophetick assurance so often inculcated that if you could but once com to whisper me in the ear I would plainly acknowledg either that I understand not my self what I say or if I do beleev it not givs a fair character of those fanatick times wherin ignorance and hypocrisy prevailed over worth and truth wherof if your self wer any part it is no wonder you should think that I or any man els should either speak he knows not what or beleev not what himself speaks It was the proper badg of those times when after the alarm sounded in the Pulpit that our people therupon went forth in troops to battle neither did the peasant understand nor the man in black beleev although the sound rung generally in their ears that it was the sword of the Lord and of Gideon which they brandisht against the loyal band their foes Measuring me it seems by your self you tell me no less than seaven times in your book that I beleev not and I think seaventy times that I understand not what I speak my self It is a kind of charity in you to think your neighbour is as you know your self to be But I do not much care for that charity except you were better than I find you are Fourthly your pert assertion so often occurring in your book that ther is neither reason truth nor honesty in my words is but the overflowing of that former intemperat zeal and the more frequent it occurs the less approbation it will find Fiftly your sharp and frequent menaces that if I write or speak again I shall hear more find more feel more more to my smart more than I imagin more than I would rellishes too much of that insulting humour our bleeding Land then groaned under the many years of our anarchical confusion Sixthly the absence of your name in the frontispiece of your book which I have never before observed in all my life of any Protestant writer that hath ever in my time set forth a book here in England against Popery givs no small suspicion that the Authour of our Animadversione is no such Protestant as he would be thought to be Lastly that I may omit other special reasons your other general trick of charging me then most of all with fraud ignonorance and wickedness when in your own heart you find me most clear from any such blemish thereby to put a vail upon your own caus which would otherways be disparaged makes me smell a fox a notorious one Sic notus Vlysses This has been too often acted here in England to be soon forgotten The better the caus the lowder still was the cry against those who stood for it that the blustering nois of calumnies might drown all report of their innocence And by all this I cannot Sir but suspect that if the description of Popery your Animadversions givs us be right you are a Papist your self and no true Protestant a notorious Papist But as it is so let it be Thus much I only tell you that you may see I am neither neglective of your book nor idle but have perused and read it over And although what for the threats of your Animadversions and what for the reasons of my own Fiat I may not enter into controversie yet I hope I may let you know that I have seen your work And that you may the better credit me I will give you a short account of it first in general then in particular And this is all I mean here to do The whole design of Fiat Lux you do utterly mistake throughout all your book of Animadversions so that you conceiv that to be a controversy which is none that to be absolutely asserted which is but hypothetically discoursed out of the exceptions of other men that to be only for one side which is indifferently for all although I speak most for them that are most spoken against and am in very deed absolutely against all speaking quarrelling disputing about Religion If you will but have patience to hear my purpos and design which to all men not interested and blinded with a prejudice is clear enough relucent in the whole context of my Fiat what I say will easily appear to your self Fiat Lux sayes one thing and supposes it another thing he desires and aims at that he dislikes this he commends We are at this day at variance about Religion this Fiat Lux supposes But it were better to have peace this he aims at and desires And both these things are intermingled up and down in my book according to that small faculty that God hath given me though not according to the usual method that is found now adayes in books Here Sir in few words you have the summe of my Fiat And I hope you will grant that to be the scope of my book which I made it for That we are now at variance is most clear and certain by me supposed and not to be denied And that it were better to have peace is as absolutely expedient as the other is evidently true These then being things both of them which no man can resist either by denying the one or disliking the other I thought them better intermingled then set apart and with more reason to be supposed then industriously proved Yet to superinduce a disposition unto peace my only work was to demonstrate an uselesnes an endlesnes an unprofitablenes of quarrels which I laboured quite through my book beginning it with an intimation of our quarrels which St. Paul calls the fruits and works of the flesh and ending it with a commendation of charity which is the great fruit and blessing of Gods holy Spirit Now the easier to perswade my Countreymen to a belief both of the one and the other first is insinuated in Fiat Lux both the ill grounds and worst effects of feuds then is the plea of parties specified their
probabilities acknowledged and lastly an impossibility of ever bringing our debates to a conclusion either by light or spirit reason or scriptur texts so long as we stand separated from any superiour judicative power unto which all parties will submit is I think with a strong probability if not demonstrative evidence concluded And therfor is it thought by Fiat Lux to be more rational and Christian-like to leav these endles groundles and ruinous contentions and resign our selvs to humility and peace This is the design and whole summe of my book And although I speak up and down here for Papists there for Protestants elswhere for Presbyterians or Independants commonly out of the very discourses they make for themselvs yet do I not defend either their wayes or their arguments Nor do I teach any doctrin at all or hold there any opinion But I only giv to understand in that one little book what is largely discoursed in a hundred That all parties do make out to themselves such a probability which as it stands joyned with the actours resolution and separated from any superiour visible power to which they will submit can never be subdued And hath not long experience proved this as true as any thing els What then is ther in Fiat Lux that can be denied Is it not evident that we are now at variance and too long indeed have been Is it not also clear that peace charity and neighbourhood is better then variance dissention and wars Do not parties strongly plead for themselvs so far perswaded each one that himself is in the right that he will not yield the truth to be with any but himself Is not all this evident I am sure it is and all England will witnes it And if any one should be able to evince that any reasonings made in Fiat Lux either for Papists Protestants or others be not certain or perhaps not probable yet he does nothing except he be able to prove likewise that they are not probable to Fiat Lux or to those that use them whether Protestants or Papists which he can no more do than he can pull a star out of the firmament I say Sir again and mark I pray you what I say If you should chance to evince that the reasons brought by Fiat Lux either for the doctrin or practises of Papists or others be either not probable or untrue yet is your labour all in vain except you be able to demonstrate likewise that they are not probable to Fiat Lux or to Papists and others who use those reasons which you can no more do then any thing that is absolutely impossible By this time Sir you may discern how hard it is to deal with Fiat Lux and impossible to confute him Sith he speaks nothing but what is as clearly true and evident as what we see at mid-day Nor do I in this any way exalt the ability of the Authour whom you are pleased so much and frequently to disable A Tom-fool may say that which all the wisemen in the world cannot gain-say as he did who said the Sun was higher at noon than any other hour of the day It was Fiat Lux his fortune rather then chois to utter words which will no sooner be read than acknowledged And it was your misfortune Sir to employ your greater talents in refuting evident truths perhaps for no other reason but becaus they issued from the pen of a man who is not so great a friend to faction as you could wish And although you proceed very harsh and furiously yet am I verily perswaded you now discern though too late for your credit that you had all this while according to our English proverb good Mr. Doctor a wrong sow by the ear Thus far in general Now briefly to give you som account in particular You spend four Chapters and a hundred and eighteen pages which is the fourth part of your book before you com to the first line and paragraff of mine The applaus and honour of this world c. And it is not unwittily done For being to be led as you heavily complain out of your ordinary road of controversies by the wilde chase of Fiat Lux it behoved you to draw som general common places of your own for your self to walk in and exercise your rhetorick and anger before you pursue a bird that flies not you say in any usual tract Preface from page 1. to page 19. Your preface wherin you speak of my subtilty and your own pretence affords me nothing but the beginning of your own mistake which will run quite through your book 1 Chap. from page 19. to 29. Your first chapter beats me about the pate for saying that I conceal my method with a terrible syllogistical dilemma He that useth no method say you cannot conceal it and if he hath concealed it he hath used one But I must pass by store of such doughty stuff being only fit for the young Oxford Schollar who being com home to take air would prove before his father and mother that two eggs were three Then going on you deny that Protestants ever opposed the doctrin and merit of good works which at first I wondered at seeing the sound of it has rung so often in mine own ears and so many hundred books written in this last age so apparently witnes it in all places till I found afterwards in my thorow perusal of your book that you neither heed what you say or how much you do deny But you perhaps love to talk of them better than your fore-fathers did though your thoughts be all the same And you will all equally bless your selvs from building of Churches as the Papists have don however your prattle goes 2 Chap. from page 29. to 110. Your second chapter collects out of Fiat Lux as you say ten general conclusions spread all over like veins and arteries in the body of that my book And this you do that you may make your self a campus Martius to sport in without confinement to my method But you name not any page of my book where those principles may all or any of them be found And you do wifely For in the sence those words do either naturally make out or in which you understand them of all the whole ten I cannot own any one for mine own set down in my book The first of my principles must be this That we received the Gospel first from Rome In your sence I never spoke this We that is we English first received it thence But you talk against it as if I meant that Brittans had it first from Rome We had it not first from Rome say you but by Joseph of Arimathea from Palestin as Fiat Lux himself acknowledges Sir if Fiat Lux say both these things he cannot mean in your contradictory fals sence but in his own true one We that is we Englishmen the now actual inhabitants of this Land and progeny of the Saxons received
supererogation above what I needed will somwhat inlighten you to discern the goodnes and necessity of my consequence If the Papist who first brought us the news of Christianity be now becom odious then may all Christianity at length be thought a Romance c. Religion like a hous if a breach be once made and not repaired to former unity will by degrees all moulder away till no one room be left intire 7 ch from page 177. to 188. Your seventh chapter finished in five leafs runs or flies over two or three of my paragraffs at once which make up above fifty pages concerning the obscurity of Nature and Providence All which discours of mine is you say nothing to my purpos but foisted in for a blinde to entertain my readers But Sir those judicious readers you lately left behind you who discern my purpos better than I see you do will tell you that it is so much to my purpos that nothing could be more At least you let all pass without either censure or commendation till you meet happily at length with a word or two of mine let fall in my ninth paragraff called Help about scripture This makes your heart leap it is a common place you know how to sport in and you never meet with that sound but it makes you dance Your chapter then which is written against all my philosophical discours of nature and providence is called scripture vindicated as though I had industriously wrote against scripture And therin you sweetly dilate upon the excellency and goodnes of the word of God as if I had any way diminished it or wrote against it just according to the tone of our late dismal times Lord I am for thy caus Lord I am left alone to plead thy caus Lord against thine enemies But Sir the few words I there speak only incidentally in the end of that my paragraff called Help concerning the surmises that men have about scriptur as they be but a small part of the many which I know to be now vented up and down the land in this our present state of separation one from another so if I had not given som touch of them in that metaphysick abstracted discours of Fiat Lux which proceeds as I have said upon a supposition of our chusing and making religions here in England at pleasur unto endles differences and divisions it had been a maimed and imperfect work and no wayes satisfactory unto those judicious readers unto whom I write though you do not And I cannot but tell you what soever you think of your self you are in truth except you dissemble and mistake on purpos but a weak man to take that as spoken absolutely by me and by way of positive doctrin which I only deliver upon an hypothesis apparent to all the world besides your self You would make a mad commentatour upon Solomons Ecclesiastes I speak upon a supposition of doubting which these times have brought upon us of interpreting accepting rejecting framing forging religions and opinions to our selves and you reply against me words and discourses that presuppose an assent of beleeving If a man beleev he cannot doubt And if he doubt not of the scriptures truth he cannot make exceptions against any of its properties But if any begin to question this or that or other part of doctrin contained in scriptur and delivered by those who first brought it as every one does who swerves from the Church he found himself in then I suppose such a one doubts And being now thereby separated from that body of beleevers to which he before by faith adhered he cannot now left to himself but proceed if he give attendance to the conduct of his own surmising thoughts to more suspicions then I was willing to express But Sir what you say here and so often up and down your book of Papists contempt of scriptur I beseech you will please to abstain from it for the time to com I have conversed with the Roman catholiks of France Flanders and Germany I have read more of their books both histories contemplatives and scholastick divines than I beleev you have ever seen or heard of I have seen the devotion both of common people colledges of sacred priests and religious houses I have communed with all sorts of people and perused their councels And after all this I tell you and out of my love I tell you that their respect to scriptur is real absolute and cordial even to admiration Others may talk of it but they act it and would be ready to stone that man that should diminish holy writ Let us not wrong the innocent The scriptur is theirs and Jesus Christ is theirs who also will plead their caus when he sees time 8 ch from page 188 to 198. In your eight chapter which falls upon my paragraff of Reason you are absolutely in a wood and wonder more then ordinary how that discours of mine concerning reason to be excluded from the imploiment of fraeming articles of religion can any wayes concern Protestants or be a confutation of Protestants As though Fiat Lux were written to any such concernment against Protestants Your head is so full it seems of that controverting faculty for Protestants against Papists that if Popery be but mentioned in a book without an epithet of detestation you conclude presently that the book is written for Popery against Protestants And if every thing therin contained answer not the idea of your brain then it is impertinent with you it is silly it is besides the purpos And this censur you have given still as you have gone along all my whole book hitherto of every part and parcel of it even from my preface to this present paragraff of Reason You cannot see how all that vain flourishing discours of mine concerning diversity of feuds ground of quarrels nullity of title heats and resolution motives to moderation obscurity of God natur and providence or the like should confute Protestancy or any way concern Protestants And therfor it is wholly impertinent Thus the famous Knight when he had once conceived an idea of his own errantry every flock of sheep must be an army and every wind-mill a giant or els it is impertinent to Don Quixot 9 ch from page 198 to 213. Your ninth chapter upon my paragraff of Light and Spirit is wholly spent neglecting all my other discours in solving the Jewish objection which I answer my self And if you have added any thing better than mine I shall be thankful for it as soon as I see it But I fear your vaunting flourishes about scriptur which you love to talk on will not without the help of your Credo and humble resignation solve the argument which that you may the eassier be quit of you never examin but only run on in your usual flourishes about the use and excellency of Gods word I told you in Fiat Lux what the Jew will reply to all such reasonings but you have the pregnant wit
judgment of his own ripened by a long and serious consideration of the things he speaks of in this his reply but recurres presently to the books of those his forenamed masters in his libraâ—y and against your reasonings only opposes their words and fore-studied evasions such as they had invented each one his own way upon semblable occasion not heeding at all whether your discours against which he writes hath anticipated those shifts afore-hand as generally it does yea or no nor how far they evacuate one another This if he had pondred well which perhaps poor man he could not do it had prevented much of his collections and sunk his huge book into a far smaller bulk To this quoth he hath Chamier told you that c. Can you not see what incomparable Chillingworth hath taught you that c. You will still be impertinent although great Plessis hath informed you that c. Where wer your eyes when reverend Hall hath so plainly told you that c. And he brings somtimes not only four or five several answers of one author to the same thing all I suppose he found there written in his book but half a dozen of those his authors with all their manifold evasions to one single catholik ground and for the most part so confusedly that the first answer of the first author hath presently another first as consisting of two parts and the first of them may haply have another first so that three succeeding periods begin oftentimes with three firsts one after another according as he penned them hand over head out of the books he wrote venting his reasons as som young children void worms three or four head and tails together Nor heeds he at all whether these his authors do chance to contradict one another in those affairs for which he brings them in so unnaturally together one affirming what the other denies one rejecting what the other allows one distinguishing what the other absolutely grants c. This benefit he will reap by this confused interlocution of his masters that if he com to be challenged upon any of the answers which he makes by their lips he shall not need when he findes them either weak or fals or any way prejudicial to own then for his what he had openly profest before-hand to be another mans replies So that they will serv a bird all bedecked with the feathers of many a fowl for pride and pompous show unto such as will admire him and to such as shall question him for a present remedy of excuse This is not my feather but the Cuckows It is not my saying but Chamiers It is the reply of Chillingworth It is the speech of Dr. Hammond and not any assertion of mine c. What can any one do Sir to such a man but neglect him Truly I look upon Whitby as a kind of master of Revels that appoints other men who are to speak every one their parts and gives them their qu of entrance whilst himself stands in som privat place to look on and see how they do perform And he provides commonly against any one of your catholik grounds or reasons for it four or five Protestant speakers by their several wayes to disable it wherof one shall haply say that the autority you bring is good but carries another meaning a second shall affirm it is naught and forged a third stands indifferent whether it be admitted or no but is sure It makes against you a fourth acknowledges it for your purpos but disparages the authour whence it is taken a fist admits both the autority of the author and truth of his words but cells you it is only one of his errors Whitby himself not saying all the while which of all these replies he holds himself for good but imagining you wholly opprest and overwhelmed with his various collection of contradicting drollery he passes on exulting to your next point or following reason in the same mode and method to be crusht And truly Sir one may see in this one book of Whitbies at a view what a judicious examiner who loves to read and ponder all things seriously cannot but observ in all the writers since the reformation put together One admits the catholik ground and autority another rejects and villifies it another accepts the words but by some trope or other turns the sens another allows the natural sens but sayes it is one of his errours another will not have that nor any other authority upon earth to be of any force in those affairs c. And thus they do about every particular of antient faith still laughing and hugging one anothers fancies though never so much contradictory as well to one another as to the common faith they all impugn What a strange confusion would this caus in the world if the like proceeding were countenanced in civil as here in spiritual affairs and men might be outed of their estates and possessions by half a score witty lawyers with cunning querks and subtle sophistries deluding his right and tenure no judg admitted to give sentence And indeed although this contest begin in spiritual affairs yet it ever ends in civil When they have once outed a Land of their old religion and the prosperity and peace attending it mens persons estates dignities nay the very laws of the Land are apprehended and brought into the power of these reformers to the utter desolation of a Kingdom And as this book of Whitbies Sir is a compendious mirrour of all Anticatholiks dealing with the old Roman faith so will I give you in civil affairs a perfect emblem of all Whitbies book That all may clearly see if this proceeding be allowable what confusion and injustice must needs follow The Emblem of the old Roman religion I make Caius the seventeenth Knight for example of his family which hath continued in the state time out of mind A faction rises to dispossess him of all that he and his ancestours had so long and peaceably enjoyed They tell him in general that his ancestors were intruders but differ very much about the time when the invasion was first made One sayes 200 year ago another 800 another 500 several men several wayes and cannot agree They com at last to his own particular title Caius shews his forefathers succession legally descending and quietly possessing for so many generations and an evident testament also for himself wherin it is expresly said Ego Gonvillus c. constituo Caium filium meum heredem bonorum meorum omnium c. I Gonvil do constitute my son Caius heir of all my goods c. The adversaries put case Chamier Dally Plessis Blondel Baxter Hammond Hall c. laugh at this and tell him it is all impertinent and proves nothing 1 Alas quoth Chamier these words are plainly corrupted It was not written Caium but Saium And the corruption is easie only the bottom of the first letter being razed out 2. Let it be as you will quoth
acknowledges catholik religion free and that Papists also or Roman Catholiks are the only men that have universally exhibited themselvs unblamable towards that breast of love and mercy from whence he would have them all excluded And to make these Papists odious he names som wars and troubles of theirs in Ireland Poland Bohemia Savoy Indeed he needed not have wandred so far as Bohemia or Poland The story of our own England would have afforded a large volum of matter if all that Papists have ever don must be attributed to their religion for wars and broils enough to tire a reader How many battles have there been here between the Scot and English between the Sax and Norman between the Norman and Britton between the English and French at Agencourt and all over France with much bloodshed and slaughter between the two houses of York and Lancaster at home when all these parties were Papists and no other religion known amongst them Is there no other principle to attribute all these disorders unto but that religion which endeavours as much as it is able to stifle all these evil fruits of concupiscence amongst men which som time or other will shoot up notwithstanding all the heavenly endeavour of that divine seed implanted in men on purpos to suppres it Must or can Protestants be justly charged with the treasons murders robberies of all such as have been imprisoned in our Jayls or hanged at Tyburn since the reformation And yet thus we deal with poor Catholiks to adde affliction upon affliction and extinguish that small sparkle of life which is left in their bodies It is surely a general fault in Protestants that we think in our hearts whatever we speak outwardly that Roman catholiks are as they should be all Saints all spotles in their lives all of them unblamable universally unblameable And hence it is that if ever we discover one traytor fool or knave amongst any of that profession we exult and make bonefires for joy and record it in our books one age after another that all the world may know and ever remember that even som of them have been transgressors We do not wonder so at our own Protestants though thousands of them should prove traytors together and many are continually hanged and som also burnt for their wicked crimes I am sure the Papists have not themselvs any such opinion of men of their own religion that they should so necessarily be honest and good as that it is impossible any should be otherwis But even in catholik countreys they have their whips and stocks and gibbets and prisons and torturs provided for malefactors as well as we have here And Princes will there go to wars as well as we Did not the Kings of Israel and Judah do so And the people too think themselvs bound even by their religion to follow them Nor have any people rose in rebellious herds to do mischief but they would somtimes pretend religion for it although they act indeed against the dictamen not only of other mens religion but perhaps their own too Catholiks know their religion is good and pure and holy and apt to make all men so that walk according to its direction But if any swerv they pitty indeed and pray for their serious repentance but they wonder not as we do at it much less do they rejoyce when any of our Protestants are taken and hanged for treason nor do they write or spread it abroad in books nor make bonefires or keep holy-dayes for joy of a thing which is indeed the object of their grief and pitty But Mr. Whitby speaks here so much of equivocations and mental reservations as proper and peculiar only unto Papists which render them although they should promis and swear allegiance never so seriously not at all to be beleeved or trusted that I began to doubt whether all London and the whole Land may not haply be Papists although I thought not of it One thing I am sure of and all men are of my mind that when we go into a shop in London or into any market or fair in England to buy wares when they tell us yea and swear too that the thing we cheapen cost them so much out of their own purse we do not beleev a word they say but think they have either som reservation in their mind or use an equivocation or ly And even Mr. Whitby himself must either be a Papist too if mental reservation be peculiar only unto them when he sayes so often in his book of which I treat That there is not one reason in Mr. Cresseys book that is pertinent not one authority but corrupted not one instance but ushered in with disadvantages to the truth and forgery or if he be not a Papist he must in these and several other passages in this his book wherin he either secretly equivocates or openly lyes at least papistare and act that which he sayes only Papists practice To give one example he sayes p. 237. That one general councel calls the respect given to images a hundred times by the name of worship I have good reason to think that one Councel would not use that word much above fourscore times if they be rightly numbred So likewise he sayes here p. 4. That the whole colledg of Jesuits in London said that they would rather promote the late Kings ruin then hinder it lest the Puritans should make use of his distresses to any advantage o too too foolish and malicious calumny For surely this is somthing more then an equivocation They rather promote then hinder it How could they do either the one or the other Thus som of our mad countreymen were not ashamed to tell it abroad about ten years ago even in catholik countreys where they travelled that they who sate in Court and condemned our gracious King were most of them Papists and Jesuits And did all the whole colledg of Jesuits in London conclude this so generally that there was not any one against it Who took the votes that he could be so assured of this great scret And where is this colledg of Jesuits in London Who ever heard of any such thing Will ever any of this wild talk pass for other then the dream of a man in Bedlam We shall ere long be frighted by such as Whithy and Baxter from hanging our pot over the fire lest the whole colledg of Jesuits in the moon should conspire together to water down upon our heads and spoil our pottage They would never tell us these things or hope to be beleeved were not the opinion they hav of our reason as small as the confidence they hav of their own audacity is great And what will the colledg the whole colledg of Jesuits here in London determin next If they should chance to decree that no whale or cod or herring should ever com into the North seas as now it is not unlikely they may they will undo many a family In the end of
1 a greater assistance of the Spirit of God 2 greater means of finding out the truth 3 better reason of discovering what is the opinion of the whole Church 4 an authority delegated from Christ to decide controversies After all this and with all this it is neither impossible with him nor unprobable that general councels may erre even in fundamentals which himself affirms as perspicuous as if they were writ with a sun-beam as clear and evident as that twice two make four Prelates Christian Prelates these must be the only natural fools of the world Ch. 22. from page 456. to 465. Descends to Patriarchal Councels which saith he may be disobeyed and rejected becaus such conventions are fallible and may obtrude heresies and unlawful practises upon the world and that a judgment of discretion is to be allowed unto private men whether they are to submit to their determinations or no. This whole chapter might well have been spared For if a greater much more may a particular and lesser Church obtrude heresies and unlawful practises upon men But Mr. Whitby is desirous that all should be made plain and not any rub lie in the Presbyterian and good Quakers way when he shall plead an excuse for his separation from a Metropolitan Church here in England which he hath made with a judgment of discretion here allowed him Ch. 23. from page 465 to 478. Sayes that the Protestant never separated from the internal communion of the universal Church which unity is only essential but only from external union with som And such an union external with any Church on earth is no wayes necessary to any ones being a member of the Church Why then is the poor Quaker so grievously persecuted imprisoned and beaten only for separating from an external communion with other Protestants Especially since he separates from it for no other end but to have the internal communion in pure faith and light and grace and charity more perfect Let any man read the Quakers books which are now not a few and see if they speak not for themselvs as Whitby here does for his own caus But the profest errours of the Roman Church justifie the Protestant separation And does not the Quaker justifie his separation both from Roman and Protestant too by the same argument of notorious abuses errours sins falsities disorders superstitions excesses of ministers priests byshops deanaries chapters lawn sleeves universities and steeple-houses Ch. 24. from page 478 to 494. Endeavours finally to justifie the English reformation upon the account that it was made here by the supream magistrate who may reform the Church either with a Synod or without it And that supream power I hope then may be permitted to set up the Presbyterian or Quaker at least to give them freedom of Conscience if himself pleas without any bishops consent no man daring to gain-say or murmur against it which not a few do heartily wish to see in this Land Ch. 25. with the Appendix from p. 494 to 512. Prescribes conditions and forms of disputing and replying with som additions to his former discourses Thus have you Sir the particular design of each several chapter of Mr. Whitby's book the negative part wherof denies your Church and the positive betrayes his own Why he gainsayes yours it is not hard to read But why he should so much endanger his own I cannot so easily say whether it be ignorance malice or necessity moves him to it Surely no Son of the English Church as Whitby professes himself to be could thus open a gap for the incursion of all sects who are now ready to swallow her up if he be in sound sences but he must either not have what he may or not will what he should or not know what positively he ought to affirm and teach for her better preservation This book of Whitbies can never bring any man to that Church nor keep any in that is there If an enemy attempt the subversion of a hous it may chance to scape But if the owner and inhabitant begin once to pull it down himself he that passes by may not improbably conjectur it will not long stand Well may the Church of England take up that heavy complaint against this her either ignorant or malicious son If an enemy had don me mischief I could have endured it And if one who openly hated had maligned me I could have kept my self from him But thou man thou my intimate friend thou my leader and acquaintance Thus unworthily to be betrayed by her own White boy must be no small aggravation to the mothers sorrow I might easily gather out of Whitbies own words consequently put together a compleat play for all the several wayes that are now of late risen up against our English Church even so compleat that they never have nor ever need to say more This sad fate accompanies erroneous wayes that even in defending they destroy themselvs If witty Presbyterians assisted him in his book they did their own work not his And if he did it himself by som Presbyterian principles received accidentally from them he hath don therby not his own work but theirs Notable is this Gentlemans art in citing of authorities which he does in most of his chapters against the points of catholik beleef which are either not expressed in his book where they may be found or not there found where they are exprest or express no such thing as he cites them in his book to utter I had in my chamber but one of those many authors which Whitby cites for himself and I found in it all this to be true But this Sir to spare here partly the mans modesty and partly my own pains and expence of time I now omit And indeed what would it avail to give you or the world to understand that Whitby never read the authors himself cites or understood not or wilfully wrested them Let him live and learn And God give him grace to make use of his time to his own advantage This thing I may assure you of that Whitby is an enemy not only to Catholiks but Protestants also of all profession here in England or if you had rather have me so speak an equal friend to all For he will not have the Church of Christ to be any organical body as he calls it or company of people linked together in Sacraments lyturgy beleef and government but to be only such and all such people who hold God and a life to com and som other fundamentals which he names not himself all of them and therfor as I suppose leavs unto others each man as he pleases to determin Nor will he have men bound either to an internal beleef or any exteriour conformity to any Church This himself avers in many several places of his book that we may not miss his meaning This new way of his I think he borrowed of som French Hugonots For all the wayes that be here now in England concur each
Fathers speak of a figure or trope in Rhetorick it is manifestly apparent they speak of a figure in nature that figure or shape which accompanies natural things which in this mysterious Sacrament is made by the power of God to accompany another substance So that here the appearance of natural bread is no more the figure of bread as naturally it is but the figure now of our Lords blessed body couched by the power of God under that appearance which is naturally the figure of wine and bread And a figure of the body it could not be unless the substance of that body were really and truly there under that figure or appearance Figura non fuisset nisi veritatis esset corpus But in Peter Lumbards time Transubstantiation was so far from being an article of Catholik faith that they did not know whether it were true or no as appears by the same authour in his 4. book and eleventh distinction so that it made haste to pass in the Lateran Councel for faith which about fifty years before in Lumbards time was but a new disputable opinion Your Disswader had done wisely if he had produced for himself as frequently he does only some obscure authours which seldom fall into mens hands But Peter Lumbard the master of sentences is an authour so known by all and in every mans hand that your Disswader had he not utterly abandoned both honesty and reason too had never mentioned him For this great master from his eight to the fourteen distinction of his fourth book doth with all solidity and art so declare and confirm the real presence in this Sacrament of the Altar and the conversion of the elements by Gods powerful word into the very substance of our Lords body as a great article of ancient Christian faith that nothing can be said either more solidly or with more earnest resolution But Quem Deus vult perdere dementat After your Disswader had wilfully thrown away his honesty God in his just judgment so darkened his reason that he could not so much as heed what he said There I say that learned Catholik Doctour does industriously and in a copious manner in thirty whole pages together according to the edition I have by me printed at Colen both declare and establish that Catholik Christianity of the real presence and transmutation of the elements into Christs sacred body answering and clearing many things which hereticks and pagan philosophers might object against it And your Disswader takes hold of one of the philosophical objections which the great master presently solves for an argument of the masters own doubting although he could not but see him assert declare and establish the contrary the real presence I mean and miraculous mutation of the elements into the substance of our Lords flesh and blood in all that his copious and learned discours both before and after that objection O unhappy Kingdom of ours by these lying fals teachers so wofully misled This one only passage which any one that hath but a mediocrity of learning may see with his own eyes may suffice to show what a man your Disswader is and how little to be credited But whom God will overthrow for his grand misdemeanours him he in his justice blindeth I could find in my heart to give here an abridgment of all that great masters discours concerning this Sacrament of the altar as he there calls it But it is somwhat besides my way and I have already been too long Qui legit intelligat The great weight and importance of this business hath made me speak somthing more of it than I shall of other things That I may therfor here recapitulate in brief what I have hitherto said to manifest your Disswaders insignificancy and to speak plainly his impertinency in this point First he is faulty in that he never declares this busines of Transubstantiation what it is or what it means in the beleef and judgment of that Roman Church he opposes Secondly that he makes all the Popish Doctours which he mentions concerning it to speak against it and to disown it whatever he meant by it and not any one of them to speak for it or profes it And how then is it Popish or Popery Thirdly that he sayes in the beginning of his section that the piece of Popery he here writes against was first determined in the Councel of Lateran and yet but two pages after forgetting himself he sayes that the opinion was not determined in the Lateran as it is now held in Rome and yet never expresses how it is now held in Rome or what that is which is now held in Rome contrary to the Councel or by whom or in what manner Fourthly becaus the busines of the real Presence which Protestants love to call Transubstantiation that they may play with that fine long gingling word as children with a rattle is not touched at all by him And yet that is all the substance of Popery in this point which that Berengarius the heretick together with his associates might fully acknowledg without any slight of the manifold evasions used by him this word was invented by the Prelates of the Councel as was Consubstantiation by those of Nice for a firmer establishment of Catholick Tradition and ancient truth So that your Disswader here touches but the lid and rind not the heart and substance of Popery which he is afraid indeed to deal with And being weak in sence he playes with words § 6. Which is against Popish Communion Sayes that the half-communion is another Innovation in Popery swerving from the Apostles practice and Chirsts Institution as appears in the Popish Councel of Constance where it is decreed though Christ instituted and primitive Christians received in both kinds yet that no Priest under pain of Excommunication should communicate the people under both kinds which is a bold affront to Christ himself although even their own Cassander and Aquinas teach that to be the ancient custom of the Church and Paschasius resolves it dogmatically that the one is not to be communicated without the other This busines Sir is more amply discussed and cleared in my Fiat Lux which you have by you If you do but read that I shall have here less to say But know Sir that this busines touches not any unalterable dogme of faith but an alterable use and practice as shall be declared by and by and therfor is it not to be called Popery upon that account And a change in such things is so far from blame that it is oftentimes necessary so long as the substance of Religion is preserved intire as here it is Christians are to fast after the departure of the Espouse and set times therfor to be appointed that such a good work be not in the Church of God utterly neglected yet the dayes and times are some of them for urgent reasons altered They did fast on Wednesdayes and not Saturdayes in many places now on Saturdayes not Wednesdayes