fond persuasion any indifferent man who doth vnderstand Latine may do thus In anie maine controuersie of faith which you question and accuse this great companie I now speake of of innouation do you name the tyme when their doctrine first began and let him who would see the triall take Gualterius Coccius or some other of our Authors who write of that matter and he shall find another in the primitiue Church who did teach it before the tyme or partie you assigned whereby it will be euident vnto him that you were deceaued about the begining of it And if he follow the direction of the booke he shall finde the same in the Fathers I said in any maine controuersie of faith and not in any thinge whatsoeuer because the Church hath power to make lawes and prescribe ceremonies and therefore may introduce or alter such thinges according as the circumstances in her iudgment require For this reason I speake of points of faith or such things whose institution wee hold to be Diuine For example the substance of Baptisme is of diuine institution but Ceremonies haue beene added and the substance of the Masse is by diuine institution but prayers and Ceremonies haue beene and may yet be added by the Church 17. If you be discontented with this manner of proceeding from which without a preiudice you cānot disclaime at all I vrge an other and take learned men to scanne the businesse In the seauenth age when the Christian word was Papisticall and of our Religion as you confesse the Schollers and wisest men had the Fathers writinges and the Memories of the sixt age which you must needes graunt because the precedent age did leaue them to their posteritie the Fathers to their Children the Masters to their Schollers Now those of the seauenth age as I haue noted more fullie in the former booke Bysshops Pastors learned mē and generallie all the Church of that tyme hauing these pregnant and infallible meanes of informatiō by writings and otherwise did iudge and beleeue and therevppon did engage their part in heauen and eternall estate that they receaued their faith and Religion from the former age being the sixt Wherefore since a world of men in matter of Facte as whether their Fathers wēt to Masse praied to Saincts c. could not be deceaued the thing being subiect to the eie and there being infinite eies obseruing religiously what was donne it followes cleerlie since the world generally did then beleeue this to be the Religion professed by their Fathers that so it was 18. My fourth argument shall be this Papistrie as you terme it was the generall Religiō of the Christiā world in the tyme of Boniface the third as you may see in the Ecclesirsticall histories of that tyme whereby appeares that all generally did goe to Masse pray to Saincts confesse their sinnes c. and your men allso Arg. 4 do confesse it Againe the true Religion was once in Rome their communion once was withall the world and this Religion did remaine in the communion of Nations till the tyme of S. Leo and S. Gregory the Great as you may obserue in their bookes wherein their communion with the Christian world is manifest so compare the sixt age to the fift the fift age to the fourth c. as I before did the 7. to the 6. Now Sainct Gregory died in the yeare six hundred and fower and Bonifacius the third who in the tyme of S. Gregory had bene imployed at Constantinople came to be Pope and died also within the space of three yeares after in which space the Religion of the Christian world was not generally changed as wee see manifestly by all histories of that tyme therefore the Religion which was vniuersally in the world in Bonifacius his tyme was the same religion with that which was vniuersally in the world in tyme of S. Gregorye which Religion you confesse to be the right Moreouer that in the foresaid space of three yeares it was not changed besides the Testimony which is taken out of the histories of that tyme where no mention is made of such a change by friend or foe but all things currant as before in matters of faith I cōfirme first by the practise of Sainct Augustine and his companie who being sent by Pope Gregorie brought Papistrie from him into England as is largly obserued in the Protestants Apologie and by your learned men there confessed Prot. Apol tr 1. Sect. ◠I prooue it secondly by the writings of such as liued in the sixt Age wherein are expresly contained all pointes of Papistrie which you may finde in Coccius and Gualterius if you take the paines and I will put downe if it be required Thirdly it is not only incredible to any man of iudgment but also manifestly vnpossible by reason of the diuine ordinance and promise of Iesus Christ that all Christiā people in the space of three yeares without meeting in common Councell without resistance of any zealous men without force of armes or other constraint should generally change the religion of the whole world and conspire all generally for you cannot produce any one man who stood for your Religion in that tyme which you would haue vs beleeue was the Religion of the first six hundred yeares there is not in histories mention of any one Protestant man then resisting therefore I say againe it is vnpossible that they should conspire all all kingdomes all states all Prouinces all Natiōs all vniuersities all Bysshops and generally all men liuing learned and vnlearned good and bad Pastors and people against the Euidence of the former Religion against the Religion of the Christian world which you foolishly suppose to haue bene the Protestant howsoeuer against the Religion of the world before them maintayned to that tyme by Fathers Writings and Authority by the force and power of cleere Successiō in the Chaires of Christs Apostles by the word of God interpreted by the Spirit in knowne Saincts by consent of Nations and generally of the Christian world and finally by the seale of infinite miracles recorded euery where and fresh in memory which Religion they had seene exercised in all the Christian world with their owne eies and had practised their owne selues Yet this you make a companie of sillie people to beleeue on your word Isa 59.21 Io 14.16 Ephes 4.14 against a world of eie witnesses against all rhe men of that age yea against Gods couenant with his Church and against the expresse promise of Iesus Christ THIRD CHAPTER Further confirmation that the Companie of Christians in communion with the Bysshop of Rome is the Church 19. THe former Argument because I know you will striue what you can to cauil at it I will second with another taken out of the confession of your Deuines and though I loathe to rehearce their fowle speaches and errours against the Church and her doctrine yet some of thē here I will set in your way desiring the
you knew me by another and whether I had euer vsed that I could not then readily call to mind You will say peraduenture that a circumstance tied your tongue This may be and therefore bearing respect that way too I will discouer you no further but leaue you at your liberty though otherwise being out of the Kingdome I might be more open then I am You haue infinitely wronged your owne soule in offering to drawe men from the communion the Church and to leade them into heresies opposite directly to the word of God and accursed by the holy Ghost Trouble not your self any further to dresse vp ould shifts that haue beene worne out long agoe If you cannot prooue your cause positiuely as none euer yet could or will doe as long as God is truth hold your peace The more you maintaine heresie the deeper a lodging you bespeake your self in hell That you may escape that gulphe I shewe you heere S. Peeters Shippe fairely vnder saile towards eternitie and will reach you my hand if you wil come into it F. E. APPROBATIO EGo infrascriptus S. T. Facultatis Parisiensis Doctor testor me legisse tractatum hunc inscriptum A Disputation of the Church hoc est Disputatio de Ecclesia in libros quatuor partitum Authore F. E. in quo nihil inueni vel contra fidem Catholicam Romanam vel contra bonos more 's sed econtrà eandem fidem Catholicam dilucidè probatam confirmatam propugnatam horum temporum haereses solidè ac clarè confutatas In cuius rei testimonium praesentibus subscripsi 17. Maij An. 1629. ANT. CHAMPNEVS VIsâ hac attestatione Doctoris Sorbonici censeo idem opus vtiliter excudi posse Actum Duaci die 28. Maij. 1629. GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theologiae Doctor regius ordinariusque Professor Duacensis Academiae Cancellarius in eadem Academia librorum Censor COurteous Reader I haue beene forced to vse a Printer who vnderstood not the language therefore wonder not if thou find heere errous in the print as diuision of syllables transposition of letters ill pointing c. In mending one fault sometimes he made another and I had not leisure to looke nicely to him If any doubt occurre in the reading be pleased to haue recourse to this place where the chiefest errours are amended The lesser committed by mistaking the letters or omitting or adding where the sense is not changed I will not speake of because he who cannot in reading supply such defects is not able by himself to make vse of the discourse Pag. 51. l. 17. cuppe pag. 52. l. 4. cuppe p. 90. l. 19. sight p. 96. l. 28. the kingdome p. 105. l. vlt. the temple p. 121. marg In Oper. S. Leonis p. 127. l. 16. and Eutichians after p. 146. l. 18. wee are p. 151. l. 13. then p. 155. 19. saue p. 185. l. 20. word p. 137. l. 15. neere p. 195. l. 13. sonnes p. 206. l. 6. abettors p. 237. l. 24. proceede p. 235. l. 7. is not p. 239. l. 25 in Israel p. 283. marg fact And. p. 298. l. 10. reprehend and his making others by his example to Iudaize was p. 300. l. 16. in our p. 340. l. 7. of nature p. 344. l. 6. tripping p. 347. marg vnitatis p. 359. l. 16. iudgment The. p. 367. l. 3. therefore p. 376. l. 14. it is a. p. 403. l. 8. of all l. 22. thy p. 405. marg l. 6. 4. p. 410. l. 15. omit verie p. 412. l. 27. and p. 413. l. 1. 2. it wrong charact p. 416. l. 12. is p. 424. l. 4. hold p. 430. l. 7. a liuing victime p. 433. marg omit Origen c. p. 435. l. 32. if you beleeue the. p. 441. l. 4. testimony of S. Cypr. vnperf The leaues at the toppe are ill numbred but I followe them as they are Some of those English authors which I haue cited I had not by me and therefore was forced to cite them out of others and out of latine so that I may haue missed to giue the same words but haue kept the sense p. 129. l. 28. an 680. Fathers 289. THE FIRST BOOKE OF THE WANT OF EVIDENCE for the continuall Visibilitie and Existence of the Protestant Religion and Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Declaring that vnto Catholikes demaūding euidēce of the Protestant succession and visible existence at all tymes in the world since the Apostles no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to the Waldenses and such as they were IT were good in the begining for the greater perspicuitie of my discourse to define the thing Protestant whereof I am to speake in this booke but Martine Luther and Iohn Caluin your Apostles and authors of your sect or religion as you call it so detested each others doctrine whē they were aliue that they cannot yet endure one definition being dead In regard of this I was once about to leaue out the Lutheran partie which in England is of lesse note and to sute our English with a definition for their turne but this was lothsome to the Puritan who by noe meanes can abide to be shut vp with the Parlamentarian within the same termes It seemed therfore not amisse neglecting all priuate differences to content my selfe with that wherein they assented and to make a generall notion of the Protestant in common This I thought was easie and might serue well inough But eieing the substance of Protestancie neerer to take measure of the thing wherby my definition might be fit I found noe constant being but vncertaintie in the essence of it This substance being as you saie pointes fundamentall and these more or lesse as euery Spirit will which Spirit is diuers not in the multitude onlie but in the same man many tymes The Moone was abroade in the could frosty nightes without cloethes and her mother pittying her spake to Mercurie as the tale is tould for a coate Mercurie taking measure when she was full a fortnight after or thereabouts brought the garment but found her changed and the coate a great deale to bigge Home he went againe to cut it and returning then it was to little and with all his skill he could neuer make it fit the Moone being some tymes thicke some tymes slender in the wast sometymes horned sometymes round Wheruppō he despaired of the worke and gaue it ouer A hard taske it were for a painter to represent Proteus in a picture but it is harder far to make a definition of your Church her essence or substance doth euer varie and is sometymes greater sometymes lesse neuer constantlie the same Yet because I am to speake of it and without some kind of notion this cannot well be I take here a Protestant for a man of the religion so you call it now currant in England and the Protestant Church I take for a companie of such men 3. Now that you cannot prooue by good euidence the CONTINVAL SVCCESSION or existence of this companie this religion this Church at all
q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church
hunted after in the former booke but could not get tidings of in all the world before Luther I in the meane tyme will on further to looke out this Church of God But first I would haue you to note that as in the naturall bodie there are many superfluous materiall parts of flesh fatte and some other eauen in the hands eares and eies as you see in men that are grosse which parts though they be coherent now are not resumed all in the resurrection because they would extēd and increase the bodie vnto more then the iust bignes of the man and beyond the originall proportion of the soule So in this mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ are many parts which will not rise with it vnto glorie and therfore are multiplied aboue the number which is written in the booke of life yet being called as many are called fewe chosen for a tyme they doe beleeue but they fall againe before they die Another thing you may note if you please that as the naturall bodie receauing the sowle when the principall parts are prepared doth growe and flourish and afterwards looseth againe the exteriour beautie in ould age So the Church receaued the Spirit when by the instruction of the sonne of God the chiefe parts the Apostles were prepared and then did extend it selfe in bignes and flourished but in her ould age in the daies of Antichrist she will loose her exteriour beautie and maiestie and be greeuouslie afflicted and persecuted for a * The Church in the tyme of her extreame persecution will be visible for persecution it selfe is an euident argument of visibility as in England you see At the same tyme she will be allso Catholique and spred ouer the earth as S. Iohn telleth in the twentith Chapter of his reuelation where of the persecutors he saith they ascended vpon the breadth of the earth and compassed the campe of the saincts and the beloued cittie Vpon which words cleere enough in themselues S. Augustine in his bookes De cluitate Dei writeth thus They are not said to come into one place as though the campe of the Saincts or the beloued Cittie should be in some one place since this indeed is nothing but the Church of Christ spred ouer the whole world And therefore wheresoeuer this Church shall be then which shall be in all Nations for so much is insinuated by the latitude of the earth there shall be Gods beloued Cittie there shall she be beseiged by all her enimies for they allso shall be in all Nations with her So he li. 20. c. 11. Moreouer that extreme persecution of Antichrist shall be very short as enduring some three yeeres and a halfe which the Scripture allso hath declared He Antichrist shall thinke that he can change tymes and lawes and they shall be deliuered into his hāds euē to a tyme tymes ād halfe a tyme. Dan 7.25 Power was giuen to it the Beast to worke two ād fortie monethes Ap. 13.5 They shall tread vnder foote the holy Cittie two and fortie monthes Ap. 11.2 From the tyme when the Continuall Sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination shall be set vp 1290. Dayes Dan. 12.11 See allso Ap. 12. v. 6. 14. tyme as S. Iohn doth foretell But now to finde this Church THE SECOND CHAPTER The Catholique Church assigned 11. HAuing seene the picture of the Catholique Church as in Scripture it hath beene drawne by God himselfe it is not hard for him that will cast an eie vpon the world and compare this picture with the communities he finds there to discouer among all Churches and congregations which is the Catholique or to learne it if he will but aske the question of any man For all S. Aug. de vera relig c 7. and euen Heretiques ād Schismatiques as S. Augustine longe agoe did obserue when they talke not with those of their owne sect but with others do whether they will or no call no other Catholique but the Catholicke because they cannot otherwise be vnderstood vnles they designe her by that name which the whole world calles her by Men generally being demaunded which are Catholiques point at vs and being asked which Church is the Catholique do direct vnto that which is in cōmunion with the Roman See This was knowne to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Paul this was acknowledged to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Augugustine and S. Gregory and euer since and is now Aske all Christians such only excepted as your selues condemne for heretiques and they will tell you so Aske Iewes and Pagans and they will tell you this is the Church of Iesus Christ aske your fellowes White Cowell and such others and they will send you to this 12. If a man should haue come to Luther when he did looke round about for companie and found none of his opinion and should haue said vnto him Sir Luther in the Bible there is an ample description of a perperuall Catholique Church I pray you which is it that I may be Christian in communion of that Church Your Doctor for his hart could haue directed to no other then to that Congregation which then was in communion with the Bysshop of Rome For to you he could not haue directed him because poore men you were not in the world as yet with your Religion nor euer deserued the name of Catholique as in the former booke to your confusion hath beene seene To haue said that he a sole man was the Catholique Church which the Scripture speakes of had bene to multiplie himselfe ouer the world into many Nations and into millions of men at once To the Iewes or Pagans he could with no face haue sent him and had he done so they would haue giuen him the lie It rests therefore that Luther and so Caluin so Iewell must haue directed him to vs and haue tould him the Catholique Church is that which hath and still had communion with the Roman See 13. I knowe some of your fellowes would send a man to the Grecians and some further to the Aethiopians but these are not Protestants as the Grecians declare them selues and by the Aethiopians doctrine he may see that is not blind Neither hath the Grecian beleefe in those things wherein they differ from the Church of Rome euer bene in the generall communion of the Christian world and therefore Grecisme is not nor euer was Catholique and the same it is of Aethiopians and all others Another shift you haue and this is to say the Catholique Church is inuisible among the Romans the Grecians Aethiopians Germans and others but lies hid This would trouble the man surely for how should he be instructed by her and imbrace her communion vnles he could find her and how should he finde her if she did not appeare but were inuisible moreouer he would say that the Church which the Scripture hath described is there also declared to be perpetually visible with gates euer open the
quod etiam ipsi credebant alios autem timore cessissè simulatè consensisse Aug. Ep. 48. See Baronius as the yeare 359. about the Councell of Ariminium which approued the Nicene faith and cōdemned Vrsatius Valens c. Afterwardes happened that which S. Ierom speaketh of when the Councell was neither f◠nor approued and all Catholikes in the world admit that such a Councell might 〈◊〉 of Ariminium neuer approued by the See Apostolike nor euer acknowledged for lawfull by the Church and by your selues also reiected I answeare that there was noe cause of feare that the Church should by that acte be all deceaued and erre in faith for the Church hath alwayes the assistance of the holie Ghost to preserue her from errour in faith by couenant of God the Father and promise of God the sonne as in the next booke you shall heare at large Neither wanted there at any tyme learned men who knew that a Councell wanting the consent of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical properlie nor an infallible rule of faith 58. If you plead against the visibilitie of our Church with this obiectiō it is weake for the Arians euer found opponēts and those visible such as at last wonne the field If you plead with it against the vniuersalitie of the Church it is also weake and impertinent it is impertinent as it comes from you because those Arians were not Protestantes and therfore their number makes nothing for the vniuersalitie of your cause And it is also weake because their communion was neuer with all Nations nor did euer equall the vniuersalitie of the Church Which is euident because the Catholique communion was elder by three hunderd yeares and was in that tyme spred ouer all Christendome and hath continued after Arianisme is gone these many hundred yeeres in the communion of the Christian world and more Natiōs haue bene since conuerted to it and are dailie and so will be till she hath bene in the communion of them all If therfore you will measure both take each communion in her greatest latitude of tyme and place or Nations and you will presentlie see Arianisme to be too narrowe and too short as not hauing possessed so many Nations nor dured so longe a tyme. Much lesse will you find that begining the same tyme it ranne side by side in an equall or a fuller streame through all ages to this daie and were so to continue if you intended this I should suspect your braine 59. Touching the comparison of it to that part of the Church at least which was at that tyme you thinke it so filled all places of the Christian world that Catholiques had noe roome This errour is of ignorance you may amend it if you inquire of some who did liue then If I should bring many testimonies you would saie I were tedious in matter of historie and therfore will content my selfe and you also if you be reasonable with one from many Authors S. Athanasius a man beyond exception together with diuers Bysshopes of Aegypt Thebais and Libia wrote to Iouiā the Emperour of the Nicene faith thus Know certainely ap Theodoret l. 4. c. 3. most holie Emperour that this same faith hath bene published from all memorie of ages this the holie fathers assembled at Nice haue confirmed to this haue assented all Churches euerie where as of Spaine of Britanie of France of all Italie of Dalmatia of Mysia of Macedonia and all Greece and all the Churches of Africke Sardinia Cyprus Creete Pāphilia Lycia Isauria and the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Pontus Cappadocia and the Churches of the bordering countryes and finallie the Churches of the east some fewe excepted which doe fauour the Arian sect for wee doe certainelie know the sentence of them all and haue receaued letters from them and doe know certainlie most holie Emperour that although a fewe doe contradict this faith the whole world cannot suffer preiudice therby 60. Sixtly you oppose vnto vs want of vnitie I answeare that all Catholiques doe submit their vnderstandings to the iugment of the Church and to the generall decrees of their Pastores and masters readie to beleeue whatsoeuer they generallie in Councells doe define and to reiect whatsoeuer they condemne and by these meanes are vnited perfectlie vnto those Councelles and to the whole Church in faith and iudgment about religion each man in the Church hauing his vnderstanding vndeuided in beleefe from the Church and so being one with it Vnitie consisting in Indiuision as you haue learned of the philosopher lōge agoe Our Councelles likewise are one in doctrine as the partes of Scriptures are though they be not Scripture but declarations of Gods word that is they are vndiuided there being amōgst thē all noe opposition or dissent in decrees and definitiōs ād the later receauing what hath bene formerlie defined wherof hereafter I will discourse a part because as Iulian Porphyrie and others thought they sawe cōtradictions in the Scripture so you haue imagined the like of Coūcelles though nothing so many nor haueing that shew as those had which by the foresaid infidelles were obiected and if you know not so much you are not of that reading your frindes haue taken you to be To your argumente I saie therfore that this companie hath vnitie in beleefe noe man at all in the companie being diuided from the rest in beleefe howsoeuer about thinges vndefinied and vndetermined by the Church in their tyme there might be diuersitie of opinions ād may be now in the like as he knowes that hath bene a weeke in the Schooles of deuinitie The same companie hath originallie likewise vnitie in religion and faith each vnderstanding in the whole mysticall bodie being submitted to the same iudge of cōtrouersies that is to Gods Spiritte in the Church Catholique and acknowledging this one Spiritte and this one Church and this one Spiritte in this one Church iudging defininge determining ruling all VVhich common vnion and consent in one makes their communion so generall so firme and so conspicuous as you are faine to see with your eies against your will 61. A seuenth argument is made against succession and it is obiected that wee haue noe succession of Catholiques or of such as wee are I answeare that the Catholique religion and Church is that whose communion is with all Nations as you haue heard and a Catholicke is a man who doth resolue his faith into this Church and into the Spiritte which doth assist and teach it such were all who did receaue the Generall Councelles before spoken of and the doctrine of the Church present to the tymes wherein they liued which were infinite and such will be to the worldes end If you will haue some assigned more particularly that you may dispute against them I name whole assemblies of pastors in Generall Councell I name the Generall Councells mentioned heretofore In them was our Succession and the Catholique Church in them was conspicuous and worlds of people did communicate with
haue answeared them I goe to the second verse and demaund all the same And theÌ„ I goe to the third aÌ„d demauÌ„d all the same And when this Chapter is done I goe to the next and so on forwards thorough the Bible verse after verse till I come to the last verse in the Apocalyps or Reuelation 62. You will peraduenture meruaile that I doe include that booke too because it is full of obscure mysteries notwithstanding I will alonge thorough that allso with all these demaunds for there are meanes to knowe that it is the word of God and the Assistance of the spirit is sufficient to open the sense of each verse when the circumstances doe require it and you dispute against vs out of it and alleage vnder the title of manifest Scripture free from all ambiguitie the deepest mysteries that are there Moreouer the Prophecies there contained will be manifest in the end as the prophecies in the ould Testament of the Messias aÌ„d his Church are now opeÌ„ to the world The spiritte allso doth open to learned men many thiÌ„gs in the scripture which are hiddeÌ„ froÌ„ the vulgar aÌ„d are not yet by generall decree defined because the coÌ„moÌ„ exigeÌ„ce of the Church requires not the open and publique notice of theÌ„ yet these might be defined if need were as many things by occasioÌ„ of your heresies infesting and endangering Gods people haue bene of late 63. You will allso woÌ„der that I speake of many senses but I haue reasoÌ„ to saie as I doe because Gods word is full of sense as before I said and some tyme so many seÌ„ses doe occurre in the same speach that it is not easie to determine which God intendeth or whether he doth inteÌ„d more theÌ„ one And that I goe not further to fetch examples the words now cited are very hard In the begining God created heauen and earth what is this begining what kind of making doth he speake of what doth he meane by heauen and earth * In the begining God created heauen and earth It is not easie to finde the sense of these words as you will conceaue if you attend and ponder each the begining What is it is it the begining of time which he meanes or the begining of the works of God before he made time or is this begining Gods eternall word or what other thing is signified by these 64. Sainct Augustine a greate Scholler and a man of the Church primitiue and one of Gods elect did search with great diligence and earnest prayer in his ould age for the sense of this place as you may reade in the twelfth booke of his Confessions where hauing acknowledged the scriptureâ—â—o be so profound that it is horrour to looke into theÌ„ he brings many senses of these words and after a longe discussion Aug. l. 12. Confess c. 31. and serious Weighing of the difficultie concludes thus when one saith the prophet vnderstood that which I doe and another that which I. I thiÌ„ke I speake more religiouslie why not both if both be true and if any bodie seeth in these words some third thing or fourth or some other at all whatsoeuer why may not he be beleeued to haue seene all those things by whom one God hath tempered holie writ to many mens iudgments which were to see diuers things then he adds something in commendation of that full kinde of stile and in fine resolues In any wise when he wrote these words he vnderstood and thought whatsoeuer truth wee could find and whatsoeuer wee could not or cannot yet but may be fouÌ„d in them Marke this deuinitie well and remember whose it is 65. I forbeare to speake of the Assistance giuen to the prophets and Euangelists aÌ„d Apostles in all they did write and publish as Gods word which doth affoord me an other argumeÌ„t as hard for you to answere as the former I will not here discouer the gap you laie open to infinite Heresies about admitting about vnderstanding the word of God I loathe to let the world see how scandalous your doctrine iâ—â—â—w you oppose Christianitie vnder the colour of reformatioÌ„ aÌ„d doe what you can to shake the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of the faith that others may stagger in all as you peraduenture doe aÌ„d so the deuill get the day But all your endeuours poore men come to short you shoot your arrowes against heaueÌ„ which they hurt not but wouÌ„d your selues in the returne The Church of God is built on a rocke and a fewe words defend it such is the power of the words of Iesus Christ against all that Heretiques and Pagans and Persecutors and impostors and deuills Matt. 16.18 can attempt Thou art Peeter and vppon this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it These words haue defended it these sixteene hundred years against all aduersaries whatsoeuer and wee were fooles if now wee should be afraid Wee are safe wee are secure The sonne of God is our foundation the holie Ghost is our direction and our Lord round about vs for euer I conclude and because you seeme to take the SCRIPTVRE the SPIRIT IESVS CHRIST for iudges of controuersies when you talke at home before your parish to stop this bragge of yours I heere present this controuersie of ours about the assistance to the SCRIPTVRE to the diuine SPIRIT to IESVS CHRIST in these termes whether the Spirit be to teach some truthes onelie which you call fundamentall or others allso which you call not fundamentall The answeare is ALL. Io. 16.13 The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth These be Gods words I beleeue them and here I rest THE FOVRTH CHAPTER Shewing how Catholikes all beleue the same though some more distinctly then others and the reason why Heretickes agree not 66. THat I may impart vnto you now the manner of discourse which I forme vnto my selfe sometymes in this businesse you must vnderstaÌ„d that the all-teaching Spirit or Holie Ghost is the Spirit of Vnitie aÌ„d that his Organ is the Church wherin he remaines aÌ„d teaches as I haue declared This Spiritte by the foresaid organ or mouth of the Church deliuers the true sense of the Scripture and those which beleeue and submitte their vnderstaÌ„dïg to this iudgmeÌ„t aÌ„d visible tribunall are all one in faith euerie one beleeuing ALL which the Church thus assisted doth hold aÌ„d beleeue and therfore all the same If I thought you coÌ„ceaued not my meaniÌ„g I would deliuer my selfe plainer thus The doctrine of the Catholique Church all together or the collection of points which it holds is but one summe of doctrine or collection of points And not onelie the bodie of the Church takeÌ„ in grosse but euerie Catholique doth beleeue it all And therfore take any two Catholiques whom soeuer where and whensoeuer they liued and their beleefe is the same to the last point or title because each beleeues all that the other beleeues as I haue said But the thing which troubles you
the stile and phrase of speach giues them no satisfaction at all For they so disesteeme it in this respect peculiarlie that in regard of the stile and matter they professe themselues moued to beleeue the contrarie and to put it out of the number of Canonicall bookes If you answere that by the helpe of the Spiritte you discerne it you moue them not for they claime as great an interest as full a participation of the Spirit as your selues aÌ„d therefore you moue not theÌ„ to beleeue as you do But suppose if you will that all Antiquitie stoode on your side what could this preuaile to moue a Lutheran to beleeue the matter or to coÌ„firme your disciples who stagger at your want of proofe what could this auaile I say seeing that it is agreed amoÌ„gst you that the Church that all the Fathers that all men since the Apostles might haue aggreed in an errour 27. According to the grounds of our Religion euerie Catholique can answere easilie that whatsoeuer by the Church of God is receaued for diuine Scripture is infalliblie such because the Church is directed by Gods All-seeing Spirit which can discerne it well And suppose the Catholique were vnlearned aÌ„d that all of you together both LutheraÌ„s and Caluinists should preteÌ„d that in the Bookes there wanted the Spirit of truth aÌ„d seeke to maintaine this with a shewe of oppositioÌ„ either within it selfe or to some other part of Scripture or to reason which thing you doe manie times pretend as Iulian and Porphyrie and others haue done before he would answere you all without difficultie by recourse to the diuine Assistance in the Church which he takes for a principle of Christian Religion beleeued heretofore by the whole Christian world and warranted by God himselfe in cleere termes and would say that the knowledge of the Church thus assisted is more certaine then the contrarie pretense of any aduerse part whatsoeuer and she more able to espie contradiction errour or opposition theÌ„ any other is in regard of the holie Spirit who directeth her and with an infinite vnderstanding lookes earnestlie vppon All. In vertue of which assistance she hath maintained scripture against Heathens and Apostataes and misbeleeuing Iewes aÌ„d Heretiques hetherto and still doth and will doe Further more a Catholike doth not thinke it necessarie that the booke which he beleeueth to be Scripture hath beene euer vniuersallie by the Church esteemed so He knowes it is sufficient if the Catholicke Church hath at any time beleeued it For one of the Principles of our ReligioÌ„ is that the Catholike Church cannot erre at all in matter of faith it cannot erre in any age in any tyme. And this principle hath euer bene beleeued by Catholiks Moreouer that which at any tyme she beleeueth hath beÌ„ infolded in her faith at other times and so virtuallie beleeued euer and by all 29. Now to your opposition Whereas you say that of late onelie some Books haue beene taken into the canon I answere first that such Bookes as your selues doe receaue for canonicall were not all at once vniuersallie receaued in the Church but were acknowledged by degrees S. Hieron de viris illustribus in Paulo Iacobo Petro IoaÌ„ne in Ep. ad Dardan itemque in Prolog So much you knowe by those I haue allreadie named and S. Hierom can tell you more Yet are these allso by your owne confession the word of God and were such in themselues before it was generallie knowne vnto the world As our Sauiour was the naturall Sonne of God and his increated Word before the world did knowe or beleeue him so to be The reason is because mans knowledge is later then the veritie and the more obscure the thing is the longer he is ordinarilie before he can find it out Secondlie it is not so late as you thinke since these Bookes were in the Church esteemed Cit. Bellarm de Verbo Dei l. 1. Vide Baron an 415 August Ep 235. de doct Chr. l. 2. c. 8. Innocent Ep. 3. ad Exuper c. 7. Can. SaÌ„cta Rom d. 15. Ierem. 36. canonicall and diuine though not so generallie as I noted before for you finde them cited for such in the Fathers writings verie oft and in the councell of carthage held in the tyme of Boniface twelue hundred yeares agoe you haue a Catalogue of them all the verie same which you finde now deliuered by the couÌ„cell of Trent sauing onlie that Baruch which the auncient Fathers did acknowledge allso for diuine is after the manner of those tymes comprized with Ieremie whose Secretarie you know he was I adde thirdlie that whereas S. Augustine who subscribed to the foresaid councell doth prescribe a rule for yonge Deuines to finde which Scripture is of greatest authoritie bidding them preferre that which all Churches doe receaue before that which is receaued onlie by some Churches or some part wee now seeing the foresaid canon receaued at length by the whole Church of God and this declared in a Generall Councell must and doe yeauen by S. Augustines rule receaue it all as the word of God and consequentlie of one and the same Authoritie all there being no surer ground of mans faith in such a case then is the Spirit of God in the Church The like I answere them allso who runne to the Iewes canon for the Spirit of the christian Church is no lesse able to discerne a veritie then they were and therefore if the christian Church at anie tyme declare a Booke to be diuine though the Iewes knewe it not wee beleeue it and must For the holie Ghost cannot erre The Iewes knewe not all that God hath taught his Church 30. The second exception is vnreasonable if you consider well what is done and the reason of it All Schollers as you knowe doe noe not addict their studies to the toÌ„gues the Hebrewe is so obscure that fewe doe attaine vnto anie reasonable knowledge of it and none at all in these later times especiallie to the comprehension of the tongue but by helpe of Dictionaries compiled by such as come short of the thing it selfe Of the 〈…〉 or of moderne Iewes not equall to the learned of the tyme wherein the Bookes were first written do endeuour what they can This experience hath taught vs Elias 〈…〉 in Habâ—â—â— Vide Genebrard in Psal 104. Serrar Prol. Bibl. c. 19. q. 6. Aliquoties dixi plurima vocabula esse quorum significatio ipsis etiam Hebraeis ignota est Luth. in Gen. c. 34 it is euident also in the continuation and transfusion of all languages to posteritie and Rabbines themselues doe confesse it In regard therefore that Schollers commonlie vnderstand not Hebrewe it hath euer beene thought conuenieÌ„t the Scripture should be translated into such a language as generallie they doe knowe which is Latine In the primitiue Church this was practised and among you it is allowed allso in so much that your predecessors Luther Caluin Beza Iunius and others
time in this world is but short the sunne runnes it ouer with infinite speede and the poste of nature is on the way how neere God only knoweth to giue vs notice of a dissolution wherein each of vs being as it were diuided one half is rendered to the earth to feede wormes the other caried away to the tribunall to heare a sentence of eternitie Happie are those who prizing God solidly aboue all and adhering to him as the fountaine of all good take this iourney with full resignation of their spirit and die in the Churche's armes I send you this booke desiring you to pâ—ruse it I would haue willinglie come my self to haue taken part with you but imployments tieâ— me heere In my youth when I had lost my best frind whose soule rest in peace I lost a greate deale of my time and it seemes almightie God hath so disposed of me that I must now repaire the losse If you find the thing lesse accâ—unte then you might haue expected you knowâ— my excuse When two imployments do meetâ— in a narrow vnderstanding and that but poorely lodged both do suffer Those who laboured in â—epairing the walls of Ierusalem whilst they did worke with one hand were forced in the other to take a sword I fight but with one hand The faults and imperfections heere are mine in the resolution the Catholique world doth agree and you haue the prayers of them all as long as you keepe your selues in their communion You haue also the prayers of all the Saincts in heauen the communion of the Church reaching thither And our Sauiour there doth mediate vnto his Father in your behalf You haue God an aduocate vnto God the Sonne to the Father doe not feare but serue him carefully and he will multiplie his blessings on you and if wee spend the few daies of our peregrination well will bring vs all in the end in to our cuntrey Heauen to the Church of the first borne to the company of many thousands of Angels where there is perpetuall Iubilie where God is all in all Then death shall be no more nor moorning nor sorrow There shall be no more hunger nor thirst neither shall the suâ—ne fall vppon you nor any heate and God vvâ—l wipe away all teares from your eies Fare â—ou well And let vs resigne our selues whollâ— to the blessed will of God and pray each foâ— other that wee may be saued Yours by manifold obligationâ— F. E. THe Quesâ—â—on Where a man is to seeke InstructioÌ„ in matteâ— of Religion The Answere In the Church in Communion with the See of Rome This resoluâ—â—on is heere declared in three Propositions 1. Thâ— Catholique Church is assisted by the Holy Ghost to all â—â—uth the third Booke 2. And is that which is in Commâ—â—ion with the See of Rome the secoÌ„d Booke 3. Not the â—ompany of Protestants the first Booke The Boâ—ke is so little it needeth not an Index in place of oâ—e take this direction God liâ— 2. cap. 4. Incarnation of the second Person Ibid His Church foretould lib. 2. cap. 1. Raised and prâ—pagated lib. 2. cap. 5. Visibile lib. 2. ca. 1. lib 3. ca. 1. 2. 6. Continued till now lib. 2. cap. 2. 3. Thâ— Holy Ghost assisting in it lib. 3. cap. 1. to all Truthe 2. fundamentall and not fundamentall c. 3. The written Doctrine lib. 4. cap. 5. The Vnwritten â—â—b 4. cap. 10. Particular points of her doctrine prâ—ued by text of Scripture lib. 1. cap. 6. Her Iâ—teriour Sanctitie lib. 3. cap. 5. Exteriour acte of diâ—ine worshippe lib. 4. cap. 9. TransubstaÌ„tiation in the Masse cap. 8. Flesh and blood reallie in the Saâ—rament cap. 6. and by Antiquitie so beleeued cap. 7. In the Church Priests and a chiefe Pastour lib. 1. cap. 6. S. Peeter aboue the rest of the Apostles and Pastor of the Church lib. 4. ca. 1. The Pope his Successor and aboue other Bishops cap. 2. President in generall Councells cap. 3. Councells lib. 2. cap. 3. 7. assisted in proposing lib. 3. c. 2. 3 4. lib 4 cap. 10. Who a Catholique lib. 2. c. 6. and lib. 3. cap. 4. Resolution of Faith Ibid. and. li. 3. cap. 4. 5. Answere to Obiections made against Vniuersalitie lib. 2. cap. 7. Sanctitie lib. 3. cap. 5. Visibilitie lib. 3. cap. 6. Succession and Vnitie lib. 2. ca. 7. lib. 3. cap. 4. Infallibilitie lib. 3. cap 5. 7. And against our Doctrine lib. 1. cap. 4. 5. and lib. 4. thoroughout The Protestants are not able to prooue their Religion by Scripture lib. 1. cap. 4. 5. 6. nor by Antiquity cap. 3. They should render account of Predecessors agreeing in all points with them lib. 3. c. 4. but cannot lib. 1. cap. 2. the Waldenses neither were Protestants nor had continuall Succession of their Church from the Apostles lib. 1. cap. 1. The yong Reader may omitte the â— 5. and 6. Chapters of the first Booke To him that hath ministred the occasion of this booke TO one of the two papers which you had from me long agoe you haue shaped as it seemeth a kind of answere yet not an answere neither for you send him that would haue one to looke it in other men that are in print For my part I was not willing at the sight of yours which I espied by meere chaunce and neuer sawe but once to be made an Aprill foole and therefore would not be so farre at your commaund Yet to declare that I was not satisfied Presumed the chiefe question out of which the rest are easilie resolued and disputed it more at large putting downe the conclusions together with their grounds and maintaining them against that which your self or your abettors haue obiected I endeuoured to do this briefly but it so fared with me in this intellectuall businesse as it doth with such as breede the child in the natiuitie is much bigger then at the conception the matter I speake of heere hath an inward inclination to dilate it self and whilst I was writing the discourse prooued a booke VVhere vppon being withall desirous to impart it to my frinds I determined to multiply my coppies by the print when I could spare money to discharge it As I was expecting that opportunitie another occasion arising out of the late persecution solicited me to let it without more delay come abroade and I haue yeelded thereunto though not without diffitcultie I will not addresse the thing particularly against you partly because I dispute also against others with whom I haue exchanged some papers as I did with you and am willing if it may be to be heard where they are partly because your discourse was not a direct answere to that I sent and a posting direction of half a sheete of paper had beene as much as in way of reply it could deserue from me or any other You had handled the matter so that indeede I doubed whether I were the man you meant by the name there put downe
on with your conceipt but wrong not other men The Aethiopians as blacke as they are doe loath and abhorre the communion of your Church and are the more vnwilling to heare of it Luther Respons ad Dialog Syluest Pri. Calu. in Antidot Conc. Tri. sess 6. c. 12. because she is not ashamed to professe that she cānot keepe the cōmaundementes with all the helpe she hath frō God allmightie and cōsequentlie that she cannot for beare blasphemie nor errour nor witchcraft nor adulterie nor murder nor robberie in fine that she cānot possiblie obserue that Minimum legis mandatū onus Aetna grauius Calu. Ibid. which equitie doth require and God commaund And for this among other reasons not Ethiopians onelie but all the rest of the world loathe her and wishe she were retired againe into her hole of inuisibilitie 12. As touching your māner of answearing I wish you to consider that you doe not satisfie our demaund nor euer will by naming such as agree not with vs in some one point or more White Illyricus vnles you prooue likewise that they doe agree with you and be of the religiō which in England you professe For example if you name a mā which denied the Popes primacie Ob. The Papists haue not a Succession of such as they are Answ. l. 2. c. 6. and l. 3. c. 4. as you doe if this man consent not with you in other thinges it is childish to thinke you satisfie our demaund by naming him he may be in other pointes of the same minde with vs or with Arians or with Nestoriās or with Eutichians or Mahometans or Iewes or Athiestes and therfore not a Protestant vnles you admit all kind of men into your communion and will haue the Protestant Church to be the congregation of them all And this too would not serue for the thing wee demaūd is a catalogue or successiō of mē whose religion is the same with yours and currant there in Englād In like mānner if you should name a man which agreed with you in one halfe of your positions and in the other halfe dissented this man were not yours yea lesse then halfe or a quatter or the tenth part is Ynough to diuide a man from communion and from vnitie in beleefe as you may see in S. Epiphanius S. Epiph. op Panar S. Aug. de Haeres tom 6. and S. Augustine That you may the better conceaue me suppose one of your fellowes is become an Arian I aske you whether he be of your religion and whether his religion be currant there in England or not if it be then Arianisme is there currāt though the Roman profession be abhorred if it be not thē a fewe yea one point is ynough to diuide you in religion from that man and him from you Now those men which you bring were each of them contrarie in many pointes as Waldo Berengarius Wickleffe and therefore diuided and distinct in religion frō you Neither will your distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamētall help you here both because those men did differ in your fundamentall ād most essentiall point of Protestancie that is in the matter of Iustification as also because errours in other pointes besides those which you call fundamentall are sufficient to make distinction in religion which is euident and by your selues cānot be denied for you saie that Papistes holde all fūdamētalls and yet their religion is not yours But of this I haue spoked alreadie and neede not repeate it I onelie adde now that a man by your principles may denie euery verse which is in the Bible and obstinatelie too excepting that onelie which is expressed in the three Creedes and Baptisme and the Supper and yet be of the same Church and communion with your selfe And what thinke you of your fellow that saieth further that Arian Churches are allso to be accompted the Churches of God because they hold the foundation of the Gospell If this hold Morton of the Kingd of Isr and the Church p. 94. what makes an heretique what communion doe you refuse what Church among Christians can be false If all the Bible but twelue propositions or there aboutes if the Incarnation if the Trinitie if the Christians God may be denied and the deniers be accompted the Church of God It restes that you saie now that the Turkes are also of the same Church and religion with your selues 13. A like obseruatiō to the former I would haue you to reflect on whē our mē demaūd White what Church wee went out of and what precedent Church did oppose it selfe to our religion and contradict it Wee doe not aske whether any man euer did oppose any part of our beleefe wee know there were such there were some which did oppose the deitie of our Sauiour some the Deitie of the holy Ghost some the real Presence some Images c. this wee know but the demaūd requires proofe of a Protestāt Church or any other if you be wearie of defēding your owne which being before ours did examine iudge and cōdemne our religion If your men will giue satisfaction to the questiō they must answeare this they must assigne a visible Church allwayes extant which did still condemne our religion whensoeuer wee appeared and being one in it selfe was still against vs at all tymes when wee were Your last answere is that the Church of God was all infected with erroures for many hundred yeares which errours were such notwithstanding saie you as destroied not her essence white And this conceipt you declare in the exāple of a leprouse mā For your Church I admit easilie that it is infected with errours The Church of God is not as you shall heare in the third booke where that matter shall be examined in the meane tyme I repeate the former argument and put it thus Either all Christians before Luther did erre in Matters of religiō Arg. or some onelie or none at all If none at all did erre Then why would you mend that which by your cōfession was not before amisse why trouble you the world to bringe in a newe religion without which you confesse it was well before If all of them did erre in matters of religion then your religion did not come downe to you from the Apostles by a succession continuall as you pretend your faith and religion was not alwayes in the world the Gospell was not sincearlie and incorruplie professed at all tymes I adde further if al did erre then you haue vndertaken a taske vnpossible in your owne iudgment in offering to maintaine a perpetuall existence or being of your religion and you quarrell with all that went before And where then was the all teaching spiritte did he mistake the true doctrine or did Christ breake his word If some onelie did erre and not all giue vs a Catalogue of some of thē who did not erre let vs heare their names the place of their aboade the profession they were
all tymes it hath had because the Romaine See or Bisshop as I haue shewed hath communicated with all those Councelles and the communion of each of those Councelles was vniuersall in the tyme wherein it was held by reason of the Nations and kingdomes from whence those Bysshops came which is set downe at large in Baronius And by this wee see cleerlie the greate amplitude of Goâ—â— Church wherof the Prophettes did speake whom in the begining of this booke I haue cited Neither is there any other Christian communion that can equall it all this tyme or is any way answearable to the description there putte downe I would goe Further yet and put your eie to it as it hath bene in each tyme but it is not necessarie to take the paines a generall viewe was all I did inteÌ„d aÌ„d this I haue exhibited The Catholicke Church is seene and knowne by her Vniuersalitie in Tymes aÌ„d Nations this Vniuersalitie is seene in the Generall communion of Christian Churches this generall communion is seene in Generall Councelles and these Councelles you may looke on when you will Hereafter I will examine whether this indiuiduall Church whereof I haue spoken hath diuine assistance and how farre but here I abstract from that question and if you graunt this to be the Catholicke Church as of necessitie you must I haue all I intend in this booke And for this purpose onelie haue brought these fewe motiues omitting infinite others which euerie where you may finde 30. For that which I haue alleaged out of Councells I neede say no more it is their communion onelie which here I vrge and the Tomes of Councells I suppose you haue in your librarie Of the truth of their doctrine I will speake afterwards If you will goe Further yet and see all the Bysshopricks of the Church Notitia Episcopat Aub. Miraei either in elder tymes or now take Miraeus and reade them there and marke allso in him those which are erected since the discouerie of the newe world If you will See the particular demoÌ„stratioÌ„ of each poiÌ„t of our faith out of Antiquity and coÌ„sequentlie the consent of the world in our Religion and cause from the Apostles tyme to this day looke in Cocciê° who hath taken the paines to declare it in two large Tomes and there are vndoubted Authors of euerie age though here aÌ„d there may be some allso which are not vndoubted works which the learned ad such as do write coÌ„trouersie are to discerne it being sufficient for his purpose to haue digested in that sort what he had reade Collat. doctr Cath ac Prot. cuÌ„ expr script verb. If you will See the consent of our Church and her doctrine to Gods word and your opposition to it reade the conference of my Lo. of Chalcedon If you desire to knowe the signes and markes of the true Church and in which and how in particular they are verified reade Bosius you haue it there And finallie if your desire be to see the Acts and Monuments of our Church in particular from yeare to yeare you haue them in Baronius who hath made in this kinde an ocular demonstration of it and thereby of our Church In the former Booke you had other proofes of our Church and in the next you shall haue more for the points which I handle in these three Bookes are connected and vnited so that one maintaines the other And you will finde the Bookes so to conspire against you that when you thinke you haue answeared any one of them the other two will oppose them selues to your answeare and saue me in the iudgment of an intelligent reader the labour of writing any more When you are about your answeare if you will needes be answearing and are thinking with your selfe how I may oppose it out of the grounds laid downe in these three Bookes you will guesse whether I haue spoken within my compasse and if you spend your iudgment more suddainlie your conscience I beleeue will then retract it THE FOVRTH CHAPTER The Iewes reiected 29. I Care not if I leaue you now consideriÌ„g what I said in the last chapter whilst I looke Further into more remote tymes on the begininges of our Church Dispute I neede not because neither the times present nor the persons into whose hands this will come doe require it and the cause doth contayne such an argument of truth that simply to relate ours is to refute others and a relatioÌ„ serues my turne for the coÌ„nection of my discourse In all Nations and at all yeauen the most obscure tymes it hath beene a generall notion a faith transcendent a common and most constant Principle that there is a Deitie soe fathers taught their children so Philosophers did prooue in schooles soe the worlds variety and order and beautie and maiestie did proclaime abroade No man so simple but knowes he hath a cause and each being of the same nature all the species all mankinde hath a cause Each subordinate cause hath a cause and the collection of subordinate and depending causes doth argue the existencie of a higher power supereminent vnto the collection on which power they all depend which efficient being none of the dependant causes is whollie without a cause and therefore hath of it self an infinite necessitie in Being and in all that appertaynes thereunto Moreouer because infinite in existencie and Being all wisdome all power all perfection is in it and this immateriall intellectuall immoueable omnipotent all-commaundinge Creatour wee call God who as he doth vnspeakeablie exceede all so is he in like manner incomprehensible of all and liues eternallie in the height and fullnes of blisse comprehending aÌ„d enioying his owne substaÌ„ce which is the roote and fountaine of existencie the originall and vniuersall veritie infinite wayes infinite and a most pure and holy Goodnes vnbounded euery way 30. Heere the Atheist a man that intricates himself in Circles and infinities to denie that which he cannot auoid God will interrupt my discourse and except that all subordinate efficieÌ„t causes depeÌ„d not vppon any determinate thing because they may either ruÌ„ne the rounde or ascende euer without an end This fellowe lookes in tyme to begette his father aÌ„d exchang relatioÌ„s with him and to be AdaÌ„s great grandfather infinite tymes and as many times more Adams sonne But his ignorance is verie childish Each man hath a cause as I said aÌ„d therefore the whole nature or species hath a cause for if any had not he weare not of the same species or nature with the rest he weare not a pure man The whole collection or multitude therefore of men the verie nature and the species doth depend on some cause efficieÌ„t which likewise dependeth on an other or is independent and immoueable if independent and immoueable it hath Being by it self preciselie without any cause condition or contingencie what soeuer and therefore hath a pure vnlimited and so an infinite necessitie in Being and this is God If the
Iesus Christ the author of this worke One out of S. Chrysostome I will put downe who saith thus No man will denie that Christ hath founded all the Churches in the world and hence wee demonstrate his power S. Chrys Quod Christus sit Deus to 5. aÌ„d shewe him to be God For it is not in the power of a meere man to lay hands on the whole world by sea and land in so short a tyme and to set at libertie mankinde preuented which such absurd behauiour and entangled in so greate euiles and not Romans onelie but Persians allso and all kinde of Barbarians Moreouer that he did this vsing no weapons making no expences raising no armies fighting no battails but by eleuen at first of no reputation base rude vnlearned poore naked men he hath persuaded so many tribes of men and not the presente onelie but those allso which are to come what that he hath ouerthrowne countrie lawes abolished inueterate customes pulled vp plants so long rooted and for them planted other of his owne he hath withdrawne vs from those things wheruÌ„to wee were inclined and induced vs vnto those which are hard and troublesome And whilst he was doing these things his were molested by all and him selfe did suffer a most ignominious kind of death the crosse No man will denie that he was crucified and by the Iewes that he suffered infinite things from them that dailie the Gospell doth increase and florish not heere onelie but euen amoÌ„g the Persians too eauen whilst by them it is opposed For there are many swarmes of Martyrs from thence and those who were there more sauage then woolues hauing heard the Gospell are become milder then sheepe and discourse now of immortalitie and of the resurrection and of vnexplicable good things Neither haue these noble enterprises bene in citties onelie but they haue gone into villages and Cuntreies aÌ„d IlaÌ„ds ports aÌ„d bayes And not priuate men and princes onelie but kings them selues which weare the crownes doe with a notable and great faith submitte them selues to him that was crucified Neither did these things vnwittinglie come to passe but were foretold long before and least there should be any suspicion at all in this wee haue the bookes froÌ„ the Iewes which nailed him to the Crosse Certainely these things vndeniable and subiect to mens eies prooue a Deitie in the worker and the correspondence to the predictioÌ„s erecte our mindes to the acknowledgment of a prouidence that preconceaued and ordained the worke long before 47. It is straÌ„g to see the vanitie of some who make triall to breake thorough this discourse as being industrious to finde a way to scape but they are penned in on euery side aÌ„d caÌ„not get away Some tymes they thinke of attributiÌ„g the whole busines to the Deuil but presently their thought is checkt wheÌ„ they consider froÌ„ what aÌ„d whereuÌ„to this MotioÌ„ is He that knowes what is meant by the world Deuil doth conceaue a spirit bent to euil and opposite vnto good In motu terminus quo terminus ad quem mobile effâ—ciens Now this Motion to iudge of the whole by that part which is euident is a Reformation and an amendement of the world for it is a withdrawing of it from vices which are manifestlie against reason aÌ„d a drawing of it vnto vertues manifestly consonant vnto reason The Christian Rule discouers to vs more cleerely whatsoeuer nature knowes either in good or ill proposing the good to be followed the bad to be eschued It is further euident that this is against the inclination of the Deuil wherefore it is likewise euident that this Motion is not from him Our Rule discouers the Deuil allso and doth inuite all to detest him whereas he hath an infinite ambition of honour whereby it is likewise euident that it is not from him Next they care not if they attribute it to an Intelligence and good Spirit seducing vs Where againe they find them selues deceaued when they consider that such a Spirit being good doth not lie or deceaue as they imagine this hath donne for if he lie or deceaue it is thereby manifest he is not good If he be good a man were out of danger that were directed by him by an Angel a good Angel telling truth Thirdly they would attribute it to the Starrs and straight are coÌ„founded when they consider that the consent is intellectuall of worlds in an obscure Creede not demonstrable by all the power nature hath For example that in the Deitie are three Persons consubstantiall this principle of our Religion is not impressed into mans vnderstanding by the Starrs Neither can the Starrs make it euident with all their light They haue not yet made euident what kind of things themselues are what their Orbes what their influence what their matter forme their subsistence macula solares Martis reuolutio whether they be corruptible or incorruptible whether the Planets be fixed in orbes or moued in a liquid substance Of the truth of these things none euer haue beene so assured from the Starrs that they would die for it for the truth of our Creede many men of great learning haue giuen their liues Neither can the starrs raise a man that is deade those who planted our Religion haue donne it aÌ„d haue donne it with a word whereas if a man expected such a thing from the Starrs It containeth 49000. of our yeeres he must staie till the greate yeere be past for the same dispositioÌ„ of the heaueÌ„ aÌ„d theÌ„ will be as weere it as he is now Variasse debuerat error Ecclesiarum caeterum quod apud multos vnum in venitur non est erratuÌ„ sed traditum Tertull. praeser c. 28. Fourthly they would giue the worke away to chance But see their errour when they consider how long before it was foretould and how oft Againe chauÌ„ce is some times one sometimes other this is coÌ„stantly the same in a world of men Fiftly they question the miracles wee speake of But in vaine for they were donne in publique in the sight of many of all sortes and being diuulged at that tyme by the Euangelists the time place and other circumstances put downe and examined by seuere aduersaries both Iewes and Gentiles not any one of them could euer be disprooued So that he who will now question them hath against him the endeuours of the learned Iewes and Gentiles them liuing who doing all they could were not able to discredit any of them as appeareth still by their Bookes and allso by the issue aÌ„d euent He hath allso against him all the Christians of those tymes the rather to be credited because an infinite companie of them together with the Apostles gaue their liues for the doctrine confirmed vnto them by these meanes The Gospells as I said where diuulged and therein were put downe the miracles donne publikely the time place and other circumstances were there assigned On the one side the Iewes studied in the
all did which you will neuer prooue as long as the Bible is extant If you reade Exodus in the two and thitieth chapter you shall finde that when Moyses had saide if any man be our Lords let him ioyne to me there gathered vnto him all the Sonnes of Leuie Exod. 32.26 And these were no small company as you may gather out of the booke of Numbers Num. 3. v. 39. Next you say Elias did complaine that he was left alone This makes a shewe and is repeted ouer and ouer in your books and your pulpittes The truth is that there were at the same tyme diuers in Israel where this Prophet was 3. Kings 19. v. 18. Rom. 11.4 which bowed not before Baal of which number God said to Elias he would reserue seauen thousand And at the same tyme allso in the kingdome of Iuda there was publique profession of the true religion at Ierusalem Wherefore you cannot prooue by this place that the Church failed and was not visible on the earth if wee would graunt you as you haue seene wee neede not that it was not visible in the kingdome of Israel at that tyme. Neither was it necessarie to the visibilitie of it that it should be still visible in both kingdomes one of thē onelie doth suffice for this purpose in case all in the other had forsaken God Let vs now come to the Catholique and Christian Church 86. In the second argument you taxe the Apostles 1. Rainold◠and first accuse S. Peeter of false doctrine because he was reprehended by S. Paul Then further you condemne the Apostles all of errour against faith in not beleeuīg the resurrection To that of S. Peeter which old Heretiques obiected it was answeared fourteene hundred yeers agoe that it was a fault of conuersation which he was taxed for not of doctrine The fault is set downe by S. Paul in these words Gal. 2.12 for before certaine came frō Iames he Peeter did eate with the Gentiles but when they were come he withdrewe and separated himselfe fearing them that were of the circumcision This cariage of S. Peeter S. Paul did repre-to Iudaize his making others by his example hend and was in this But here is no false doctrine maintained ād published by him much lesse by the Apostles all taught and generallie by the Church beleeued whereof wee speake now In the conuersatiō of the Popes which you taxe by this occasion there may haue bene faults allso for they were men but from them in generall Councells there hath come no false doctrine nor euer will 87. The second parr of your obiection hath no difficultie because wee knowe that the Apostles did learne the particulars of faith by degrees as you may obserue easilie in the Gospell ād their slownes to beleeue the point mentioned but not any errour maintained by them for Christian doctrine was reprehended Neither was the all-teaching Spirit as yet come our Sauiour not being ascended who therefore did instruct thē in the matter his owne selfe Now the thinge that wee defend is not that the Apostles beleeued all in particular from the first tyme they were called or that in conuersation nothing euer hapned amisse in any one of them but that after the comming of the holie Ghost the Catholique Church did neuer beleeue or teach errour in matter of faith which I would haue you to read ouer and ouer that you mistake not the matter but argue to the purpose 88. A third argument which I thought good to put in this place touches the resolution of our faith into the Church which resolution seemes not firme because it is made into authoritie not diuine To this I answeare that the authoritie of the Church alone if you consider it apart not adding thereunto the authoritie of the Assisting Spirit is greater then any other authoritie in the world that is distinct from the diuine authoritie And this by reason of an infinite multitude of learned and holy men which are in it of infinite miracles which doe giue testimonie of a greatnes which nature wonders at of the strange vnion of worlds of people in one obscure faith with a constancie which neither flattery nor feare can shake which vnion doth acknowledge no cause in nature since nature inclines not so constantlie to communion ād vniforme iudgment in things not found in nature as God incarnate the sonne in substance and power all one with his Father ād yet distinct in person and the like The authoritie I say of the Church by reason of these and such other motiues is the greatest of all authorities among men in so much that no other is any way equall to it and therfore none able to drawe a wise man from it 89. Yet this alone is not the thing wherevnto wee do make the last resolution of our faith But wee make it into the testimonie of allmightie God in the Church This testimonie doth originallie moue our faith The sunne is allwayes visible in it selfe but cannot be seene of vs vnles it be in the Orbe aboue our hemisphere and when it is risen the eleuation doth not principallie moue our eie but the sunne in that eleuation doth moue it to see both sunne and heauen and all other things which the light comes vppon So Gods eternall word of it selfe is euer apt to moue and to be seene though wee cannot discouer it with the eie of faith vnles it be exposed or proposed to vs in the firmament of the Church or some other way equiualent But if it be so applied our faith discerns the word and the Church proposing it and all other things that are reuealed Wherein the Church-proposition doth concurre instrumentallie with subordination to the Word of God and of them both in seuerall kinds our faith depends 90. Wee resolue therefore into authoritie truely diuine into the diuine Spirit teaching in the Church Or if you will haue a longer way which in effect is all one wee do resolue into the present Church assisted with the Spirit This present Church doth resolue into the Church in the former age assisted by the Spirit that againe into a former age ād so to the Apostles they resolue into Christ Where you finde the like as before that is the eternall and increated word mouing by way of humane speach and the Apostles faith depending though diuerslie on both at once that is on the eternall word as on the originall motiue and on the word of his mouth as on the Application 91. If you would haue yet another waie take the motiues of faith all together or the collection of them as applications and the prime veriry as formall obiect and you haue all that you iustlie can desire In the collectiō of motiues I doe include the whole Church these sixteene hundred yeares and the Apostles and Iesus Christ as he appeared and taught and all the miracles done in cōfirmation of the Christian Catholique faith the conuersion of the world from bad
this bodie one whereof visible men are members and Predestinate allso members of the same then are there not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible Now it is most certaine by the testimonie of holie Scripture that the Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ ād that this mysticall bodie is but one wherein are visible and predestinated persons therefore there are not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible two bodies one visible the other inuisible but all appertaine to one bodie and one Church I confirme this out of S. Paul who in his Epistle the Ephesians saith that God the Father hath made Christ the heade ouer all the Church which is his bodie Ephes 1. v 22.23 Ch. 4. v. 13. In this Church the Apostle saith Christ put Apostles pastors c. till wee all meete into the vnitie of faith which is till the end of the world Chap. 2.19 Ch. 1. v. 13. and in the same Church are the citizens of the Saincts the domesticalls of God Those which are signed with the holie Ghost of promise which is the pledge of our inheritance in fine the predestinate and S. Paul himselfe was in this Church This one bodie therefore had these two attributs to wit it was visible for hauing in it intrinsecallie and for euer publike persons Pastors Doctors it might thereby be seene and heard and it had in it the predestinate which you call inuisible men whence it followes that visible and inuisible in that sense leaue it still as it was one bodie 105. Fiftlie our greate Pastors fould is one not two as your distinction makes it He hath one fould and that is visible For the Church of God is visible as I haue manifestlie declared before and to this fould his predestinate are all brought out of what Nation out of what part of the world soeuer Other sheepe I haue that are not of this fold a fould wherein the Apostles were Iohn 10.16 men visible to the whole world and wherein their successors are men allso visible thē allso I must bringe ād they shall heare my voice and there shall be made one fould and one Pastor Heere by the testimonie of Iesus Christ the fould the Church is one away then with your distinction beleeue one as wee doe which is visible in which the predestinate people are 106. And indeede where should one looke for our Sauiours Schollers but in his Schoole where should wee looke for Gods domesticalls but in his howse where should wee looke for his members but in his body where should wee looke for holie people for predestinate for Saincts but in the Church And therefore hauing demonstrated before which is the Church this labour might haue bene spared For as I answeared of the Spirit that you should not challenge him till you had prooued that yours was the Church a taske vnpossible so now I may answeare of holie people of predestinate of Saints that you do not callenge any till you haue prooued which you will not doe as longe as God is God that yours is the Church 107. It is verily a ridiculous thing to see what Churches you frame in your imagination One full of words euer preaching all mouth but without Spirit without hart without sowle The other full of the Protestant Spirit but silent and ashamed of her owne doctrine in so much that for a thousand yeeres together she was dombe a church without a mouth The mouth and hart you knowe are both parts of one man the hart is within and is not seene but by the mouth in the mouth it doth shewe it self in what forme it pleaseth to affect The Church too hath hart and mouth hart to beleeue to loue God and mouth to praise inuoake and professe him These make not two Churches they are two parts of one God hath promised these two to one and the same Church his spirit is allwayes in her hart and his words allwayes in her mouth I will aske my Father and he will giue you an other Paraclete Io 14 v. 15 16.17 that he may abide which you for euer the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receaue because it seeth him not nor knoweth him But you knowe him because he shall abide with you and shall be in you Thus our Sauiour to his Apostles publike ād visible persons and in them to the visible Church Isay 59.21 Rom. 10. v. 9.10 My spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c for euer If thou confesse with thy mouth our Lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him vp from the deade thou shalt be saued for with the hart wee beleeue vnto iustice but with the mouth confession is made to Saluation Gods Church therefore hath both hart and mouth in her hart she hath Gods Spirit in her mouth his word and these are not two Churches but one Church 108. Neither doth predestination make it inuisible as childishly you imagine The predestinatiō it selfe indeede is inuisible vnto vs it is Gods purpose and decree and therefore is in God as mans purposes are in the mind of man and those purposes euen in men are secret and hidden till the men reueale them But the predestinated as I said before are as visible as other men So was S. Peeter S. Paul and the rest of the Apostles the Martyres of Iesus Christ were visible otherwise how could they haue bene tortured as they were The Doctors were visible S. Ierome and S. Augustine were knowne farre and neere ād to come neerer to our tyme S. Francis S. Thomas of Aquin S. Bonauenture S. Charles Boromeus were visible yet predestinate whereby it is most euident that predestination doth not make men inuisible they may be publike persons and knowne to all the world and predestinate allso And so may the Church be both predestinate and visible too And is so though euery man in the Church be not predestinate some are there more then number as in a mans body there are some parts superfluous which will not be resumed in the resurrection as I said in the former booke and these parts are like the rest they communicate with the rest they beleeue as the rest but they doe not perseuer as the rest Now which those are that will perseuere finallie which will not God hath reserued as a secret vnto himselfe He hath not as yet made any secretarie coppie out of the booke of life The sanctitie of some in all tymes he makes knowne for the example and encouragmēt and confirmation of others by such signes as he pleaseth such as you reade in the liues of Saincts penned by saincts allso by S. Athanasius S. Ierome S. Augustine S. Gregorie of Nice S. Gregorie the greate S. Bede S. Bernard S. Bonauenture and others who in their workes haue related diuers wōderfull things of holie men and this is a further argument
of their visibilitie But God as I said hath not yet permitted the booke of life to be coppied out and diuulged Iohn 4.23 1. Io. 2.27 109. You obiect first that true worshippers adore in Spirit and truth and vnction teacheth all This is true But those worshippers those ānointed are in the Church they are a part ād the chiefest part of the visible communitie whereof I haue spoken in the second booke they are in the visible fold of Christ Were the Apostles and the rest of their Religion the true Church or no were they was that Bodie that communitie visible or inuisible their sermons were not they heard were not their writings seene went not their sound ouer all the world why then they were visible As for the vnctiō it teacheth the Catholique Church it teacheth men to giue assent to such things as the Apostles then did and their Successors now doe propose They may preach and be heard allso but without vnction the people will not beleeue 1. Cor. 3. Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giueth the increase In the same Catholique Church are those adorers in Spirit and in the middest of it the sanctification of God is foreuer The Apostles did they adore in Spirit or no if they did whie may not a visible Church do so if they did not who will beleeue that you do 110. Secondlie you obiect that there are none in the Church but predestinate If you speake of the Church triumphant you say true if you speake of the militant Church it is not so for all those that for a tyme adhere vnto this bodie and are parts of it do not finallie perseuere some are multiplied aboue number and beleeue a while but reuolt and fall of before they die The Church militant is the companie of beleeuers in communion with S. Peeter and his See It is the companie of Catholiques And Catholiques some are in charitie and in the grace of God and are saued some die in mortall sinne some loose their faith at last 1. Tim 1. In the primitiue Church some made shipwracke of their faith as Hymeneus and Alexander saith the Apostle Some do beleeue for a tyme said our B. Sauiour Luk. 8.1 and in tyme of tēptation do reuolt And the Spirit manifestlie saith that in the last tymes certaine shall depart from the faith attending to the Spiritts of errour 1. Tim. 4 Matth. 2 14. Many are called but fewe chosen There are some with wedding garments and some without some wise virgins some foolish some corne some chaffe some vessells of honour some of dishonour some good some bad some predestinate some reprobate in the Church The predestinate will perseuer the rest will not 111. I come now to the second part of this Chapter wherein I am to loosesome tyme in asking a question or two about your dombe-preaching Church about the Saincts of your election about those people which were in all tymes but neuer before Luther and in all Nations before his tyme but no wherein the world And I demand first whether all the rest were like you or no if they were why then were they inuisible You say you are predestinate and yet you are visible notwithstanding your predestination and a member of that Church whie then might not the other men be visible allso euerie one of thē and the whole visible 112. I demaund secondlie whether you do knowe the rest of your Church the rest of your predestinate breethren or whether you knowe none of that Church but your selfe onely ād whether euery one in that Church knowe himselfe onelie and no more If you do not knowe any of them what Societie cā you haue among you what gouerment what forme of a Church If you do knowe any I desire to heare how wee finde not your names in the Scripture the booke of life is not printed with the Gospell 2. Tim. 2.19 Iohn 10.14 wee reade there that our Lord knowes who be his that our greate Pastor knowes his sheepe That you can do it that you can number all his sheepe that you can point them out wee reade not I pray you howe come you to knowe the secret is it by exterior profession that serues not they may dissemble and which is worse for you none professed your religion for 900 yeeres togeather and therefore by profession you knowe none in all that tyme. Neither would an vnfained profession haue serued the turne for euerie one that persuades himselfe that he beleeues is not constant in the faith nor predestinate What then be the certaine markes whereby you knowe your inuisible brethrē that wee may knowe them too or do you not indeed knowe them Remember what hath ben said in the first booke if you knowe them let vs heare the markes the markes of a predestinated Protestant and bringe vs one example any tyme for 900. yeeres before Luther of such a man an example out of questiō a manifest example If you do not knowe them you cannot conferre with them in your difficulties you cannot helpe them in their necessities you cannot meete in Councell as the Apostles and Pastors did in the primitiue Church you cannot haue the face nor the gouerment of a Church 133. I must examine further by your leaue In your Catholique Church of predestinate is there order or confusion are there Pastors ād Doctors and Bysshops or no Bysshops no Pastors no Doctors is there a Hierarchie or not are the preachers and Superintendents seene and heard or how are the things dōne The reason of my demand or doubt is because this Catholique Church of yours is inuisible and therefore it seemes that no man can see the Preacher otherwise many in the companie might see him if not all and so he were visible He allso might see them he preached vnto and so they were visible too and consequentlie the whole companie and the whole Church were visible not inuisible 114. It might seeme by your talke that this holie Congregation of yours hath greate eares and no eies for if they had eies they might then see the Ministers that instructe them they might see their Superintendents Or if they can heare and not see these Ministers their eares reach a greate deale further then their eies But this will not content me neither if yo graunt it for that which may be heard makes a noise and by the noise discouers it selfe if therefore your predestinated Preachers haue made a noise in the world the Christians or Papists liuing with them should haue heard it though they could not see those inuisible men and this at least would be found on record as other wonders are to wit That in all Christian countries there was a Protestant noise ād sermons euerie where in euerie Nation but no preacher seene this would haue bene found in the Chronicles of all countries and some would haue bene so curiouse as to haue noted the points of the Sermons and set downe the doctrine But
it hath beene so farre from this that for a thousand yeares together there was a deepe sileÌ„ce in the world and no Protestant sermon heard yea Luther did verie earnestlie listen after such a sermon Luth. de Missa prâ—uata ton 7. but his learned eares could heare none saue onelie from the diuell one and that indeed he hath registred in his writings 115. Hauing entred into the consideration of your inuisible Church I will be bould to looke about me where are your Superintendents how do they exercise their office without being seene Your Ministers of this Church who creates them and how is euerie one a minister or some sheepe and some pastors how do you knowe the pastors from the sheepe the ministers from other men are all Apostles 1. Cor. 12. v. 28.29 are all prophets are all Doctors are all miracles haue all the grace of cures do all speake with toÌ„gues do all interprete who do who doe not how may one knowe how do you knowe v. 27. S. Paul saith some verily God hath set in the Church first Apostles secondlie Prophets thirdlie Doctors next miracles then the graces of doing cures helpes gouerments kinds of tongues Are these things in the inuisible Church and if they be not there how is it the Catholique Church are there tongues in that deepe silence is there gouerment in that confusion are there helpes and cures where no man seeth anothers wants and miseries miracles and none wonder Doctors and no Schollers Prophets and Apostles and no preaching of the word Where are the pulpits where are your communion tables how are the collectioÌ„s made do you meete onelie in the night or in the daie or not at all what calles you together if you meete a signe that may be seene a sound that might be heard and you might be found which is against the nature of a Church inuisible Your assemblies for a thousand yeares together how were they made and where or did none preach all that tyme did no Bisshops gouerne did all beleeue and so long and so ordinarily without preachers how could that be how could your people inuocate in whom they beleeued not how could they beleeue whom they heard not and how could they heare without a preacher Answere for your Church and teach S. Paul something which he knewe not If you admit gouermeÌ„t aÌ„d instruction and order in that Church you grant it to be visible for these things are visible If you denie them you cannot shewe how those your imagined predecessors had any faith and were a Church militant So that you puzzle your owne selfe in this busines and are ouer come without an aduersarie 116. I note it therfore for a particular weakenes in your braine that determining to feine a Church of predecessors you had not so much wit as to inuent a thinge which did not infold a contradiction in it selfe as this doth for being inuisible it hath no preachers for preachers are visible things now where there are no preachers there is no faith where there is no faith there is no Church the Church being a Congregation or Societie of faithfull people therefore in making a Church inuisible you make the same thinge to be a Church and no Church Againe there are no Saincts where there is no sanctitie there is no sanctitie where there is no faith no faith where there is no preaching no preaching where the is no mission Rom. 10.15 no mission where there is no gouerment no gouerment where there are no gouerners And in an inuisible coÌ„panie there are no gouerners therefore froÌ„ the first to the last there are in it no Saincts Notwithstanding it hath nothing else you say but Saincts So that it hath people in it it is a Societie of Saincts if wee beleeue you and yet hath not a Sainct in it which is another contradiction 117. Moreouer this Church of yours hath preached continuallie Protestantisme in all Nations because in all Nations you haue had Saincts if your imagination be admitted and sanctitie is grounded in faith He that â—hall be ashamed of â—â—me and of my words him the sonne of man shall be ashamed of When he â—hall come â—n his Maâ—esty Luke 9. â—6 faith gotten by hearing as I said before yet all this tyme she hath not spoken but was ashamed of her owne faith Now how these two hange together do you iudge If you thinke I doe you wronge in accusing your Church of silence take in hand againe the Argument of the first booke produce euidence of anie one man yours or ours frind or foe ChristiaÌ„ Turke or Athiest that euer heard a Protestant speake in any place of all the world a rome wide ynough in any part of fifteene hundred yeeres before Luther a tyme longe inough or euer since the begining of the world if you would haue a longer space and though this will not serue for a Church of all NatioÌ„s yet will it shewe that you know something more then all your fellowes and that you haue profited a little since you wrotte last As for the credibilitie of your deuice they will beleeue yet another Gospell on your bare word against all the euidence in the world that beleeue this conceipt of yours and euerie yonge Logician that hath heard his master talke of Chimeraes can make as good and ground them as solidlie as you doe for euerie child knoweth that the Church militant is a Societie of men seruing God which men are not meere Spirits but things visible the Societie of theÌ„ allso is a thing visible teaching baptizing ruling conuerting Nations confuting Heresies are visible acts In nullum nomeÌ„ Religionis seu verum seu falsum coagulari homines possunt nisi aliquo signaculorum vel Sacramentorum visibilium consortio colligeÌ„tur S. Aug. li. 19. cont Faust c. 11. and acts of the Church of God Man oweth vnto God visible acts of worshippe and not inuisible only praise sacrifice Sacraments are visible things the word of God is visible yea God comming to raise this Church did exhibite himself heere visible God himself was seene with mens eies as I told you in the second booke and if you be a Christian you beleeue it The Church which you speake of being inuisible can be no Societie and therefore no Church And as it is no Church but a Chimericall non ens so the acts of it proportionablie be negatiue it hath conuerted no Nations it hath confuted no Heresies it hath brought vp no Saincts Before Luther it was in no place it administred no Sacraments it made no Sermons It had no conscience no mouth no face 118. Vnworthie therefore is this fiction of yours to be compared to the Church of God these imaginarie Saints of yours to the Saints of Allmightie God these dombe preachers to the Apostles of Iesus Christ and their Successors this vnsociable societie not daring to appeare or whisper a fore men for many huÌ„dred yeeres to that Church which hath
nimirum qui voto propositum illum caelestem panem edentes fide viua quae per dilectionem operatur fructum eius vtilitatem sentiunt tertios porrò SACRAMENTALITER simul SPIRITVALITER Conc. Trid. sess 13 cap. 8. If you vnderstand this as it is easie you will vnderstand many passages of the Fathers which doe concerne the communion Dupliciter caro Christi sanguis intelligitur vel SPIRITVALIS ILLA atque diuina de qua ipse dixi caro mea verè est cibus eadem substantia coÌ„parata ad diuersos modos existendi sanguis meus verè est potus Vel caro sanguis qua CRVCIFIXA est qai militis effusus est lancea Iuxta hanc diuisionem in Sanctis eius diuersitas sanguinis carnis accipitur vt ALIA sit caro quae visura est salutare Dei alia caro sanguis quae regnum Dei NON quâ—ant possidere S. Hieron Comment in cap. 1. ad Ephes Learne this all well and when you reade S. Augustine it will do you good Flesh and blood cannot possesse the kingdome of God 1. Cor. 15. v. 50. you would thinke this to be against the Article of the Resurrection reade the whole Chapter and marke the Apostles distinction of a bodie into a naturall body and a spirituall bodie and this spirituall bodie in substance is the same bodie which heere nature framed consisting of flesh and blood and this you beleeue the Resurrection See Card. Peron his Treatise of the Eucharist Paris 1622. comes to the communicants mouth Yea some tymes he is receaued vnworthilie as you may reade in S. Paul 1. Cor. 11. but those receauers haue not the spirituall effect and coniunction they receaue the bodie into their bodies they receaue not grace into their sowles from this bodie because they receaue it vnworthilie and not as the bodie of Christ a thing most holie by reason of the vnioÌ„ to the diuine person ought to be receaued 72. As for signes some doe signifie things present some things absent The Eucharist is a Sacrament and therefore a signe it is a signe of grace and a signe of the bodie of Christ present So the forme doth signifie This is my bodie and so the species vnder these words doe signifie to good Christians to all those that beleeue Iesus Christ S. Aug. enarrat ps 3. cont Adimant c. 12. This mysterie is allso a representation of the bloodie passion as I said before it is a figure of that sacrifice yet a Sacrifice too The word of God is the figure of the Fathers substance and yet he is a diuine person too The same thing may haue diuers attributes one not excluding another the Eucharist is a signe a representation an oblation a Sacrifice and in it are reallie the bodie and blood of Christ yea Christ himselfe is there All these doe consist one doth not exclude the other 73. Lastlie to conclude this matter I wish you to reflect that opposing the Masse as you doe you oppose all the Christian world that was before Luther This I will declare brieflie In Antioche AlexaÌ„dria Ierusalem Aethiopia Chaldaea East India First it is manifest that all knowne Christian Churches in the age before Luther did frequent the Masse In all Europe in all parts of Asia and Africke where anie Christians were The Christians in the partes latelie discouered all were found to frequent the Masse Allso the Nestorians and Eutichians in Aegypt the Russians Muscouites and Grecians all frequent the Masse Which is an euident argument they had it by tradition from the Apostles Both those who knewe nothing of the Bishop of Rome and those who knew him but obaied him not all agreed in the substaÌ„ce of the Masse or vnbloody Sacrifice who taught the world for such vniformitie and consent of so many Nations so dispersed and some to the rest wholie vnknowne in so darke a Mysterie as this is could not be from any naturall cause SecoÌ„dlie all these Churches that is all the knowne Churches in the world did beleeue they were thus to doe by the institution of Iesus Christ and the Tradition of the Apostles And among these the true Church was one because that is euer visible by her profession as I haue prooued Whence it followeth that the frequenting of Masse is approoued by the Spirit of the true Church S. Aug. l. 4. de bapt c. 6 and consequentlie it cannot be an ertour Thirdlie that custome which men euen then looking vpwards did not see instituted by those which were later then the Apostles is well beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles saith S. Augustine But all these Churches Infinite eies looking vpwards could not see the Institution of vnbloodie Sacrifice or Masse later then the Apostles which is manifest because they all receaued it as diuine and Apostolicall Therefore by S. Augustines rule it is well beleeued so to be 74. For the later ages you easilie admitte they weÌ„t to Masse and that they beleeued an Vnbloodie Sacrifice for the Primitiue Church you are yet some what doubtfull it seemes what to doe Missa abominatio in calice aureo propinâ—â—a omnes reges terra populos a suÌ„mo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt proram puppim sua salutis in hac vna voragine statuerint Cal. 4. Inst c. 18. Let me helpe you forward to resolue vppon the truth That vnbloody Sacrifice in the formes of breade and wine which wee call the Masse was frequented by the Primitiue Church I prooue first by the consent of all Christian Churches euer since aÌ„d by their liturgies which as all these Churches doe testifie were deliuered them from the Church Primitiue Among these haue beene infinite wise men and greate Schollers as in another place I did argue They had better meanes to know the practise of the Primitiue Church then wee haue being neerer and some of them immediate The matter as frequentation of the Masse and their exteriour profession of their faith touching these things was subiect to the seÌ„se And amoÌ„g these was the catholique Church the spouse of Iesus Christ hauing the Assistance of the holie Ghost to discerne the true worshippe of allmightie God The testimonie of all these is sufficient to make vs beleeue that the Primitiue Church went to Masse or no testimonie of men is sufficient in any cause 75. I goe neerer In the begining of the seuenth age liued Isidorus S. Isid l. 1. Offic. c. 15. plura c. 18. Bisshoppe of Ciuil and a Sainct and he saith the order of Masse or prayers whereby SacrificeS offered vnto God are consecrated was first instituted by S. Peeter the celebration whereof saith he THE WHOLE VVORLD doth performe after one and the same manner All this world sure had meanes to knowe what their Fathers in the age before had donne better then wee they had their books they had conuersed with manie of theÌ„ let vs ascende In