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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	administration_n	church_n	prayer_n	2,103	5	6.6397	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A38090	Antapologia, or, A full answer to the Apologeticall narration of Mr. Goodwin, Mr. Nye, Mr. Sympson, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Bridge, members of the Assembly of Divines wherein is handled many of the controversies of these times, viz. ... : humbly also submitted to the honourable Houses of Parliament / by Thomas Edwards ...	Edwards, Thomas, 1599-1647.	1644 (1644)	Wing E223; ESTC R1672	272,405	322

as they see just ground the controversie were at an end 4. The Corporations that is those in place and power if they proceed unjustly are accountable to the State they live in that is to a higher civill power and adjudged themselves in cases of wrong condemning the innocent suffering delinquents to escape but your Corporations of particular Congregations even in case of reall Administration are against all judging and all Ecclesiasticall Authoritative power out of your own Congregations To the fifth Reason hinted by you to strengthen your practise that it was safe and allowed and the Reformed Churches more questionable namely appealing to them who have read books whether much hath been written with strength setly and directly to prove that government but rather to overthrow Episcopall and to maintaine those severall Officers in Churches which Christ hath instituted and therefore you inferre you might have more ground to question this government of combined classicall Presbyteriall government I answer the ground of that is fully laid down in the Reformation of the Church of Scotland page 17 and 18. with an account of what hath been written and done by the reformed Churches in France for the Presbyteriall way and against the popular Independent way which is more then you once in this Reason hinted but suppose that in former writings of Calvin Beza Zanchius Peter Martyr Danaeus Iunius Zepp●…rus Gersom Bucerus Dr Reynolds Parker there hath not been much setly and directly insisted on and with strength to prove the government of Synods and Classes though in some of these more especially as against the Church of Rome and Episcopall government much strength is brought for the government by Synods and Classes yet that which those Divines of Scotland Holland England have written of late against the Independent congregationall government might have been enough to have satisfied you and that 's not materiall that no more have written seeing out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established and if these books had not strength to satisfie you why have not you all this while answered them but I must mind you of forgetting one of your own Divines for besides the learned Licensers booke against Independencie another booke was written cald Reasons against the Independent government of particular Congregations and the Toleration of them in this Kingdome which booke in your seeming to take no notice of I beleeve you remember above the rest and in the 25 page of your Apologie it appeares you remember it but the Authour of it belike is none of your Divines And in the close now of this answer to your Reasons hinted about the government and discipline of the Church why you in your Congregationall way should be in the truth but the Presbyteriall government was a question to you and judged an additament because the Presbyterians allowed you what you practised and granted what you held but themselves held and practised over and above I answer this is no Argument at all for by the same reason the Samaritans should have worshipped God truly but the Iewes falsely and the Samaritans might have said to the Iewes as you doe to the Presbyterianns the five books of Moses which we owne to be sure they are from God you acknowledge them but for the books of the Prophets that 's a question which rests upon you that allow what we hold to make evident and demonstrate and so the Iews may now by the same reason speake against the Christians and say we are in the safer way to be sure we practise safely for you Christians confesse what we hold namely Moses and the Prophets to be the Scriptures but for the new Testament that is to us a question and an additament which therefore rests upon you Christians to make good who beleeve and practise over and above us And whereas the common prejudice and exception laid into all mens thoughts against us and our opinions is that in such a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe there is no allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages though never so gross●… no reliefe for wrongfull sentences or persons injured thereby no roome for complaints no powerfull or effectuall meanes to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into heresie schisme c. but every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their own eyes we have through the good providence of God upon us from the avowed declarations of our judgements among our Churches mutually during our exile and that also confirmed by the most solemne instance of our practise wherewith to vindicate our selves and way in this particular which upon no other occasion we should ever have made thus publike God so ordered it that a scandall and offence fell out between those very Churches whilst living in this banishment whereof we our selves that write these things were then the Ministers one of our Churches having unhappily deposed one of their Ministers the other judged it not only as too sudden an act having proceeded in a matter of so great moment without ●…nsulting their sister Churches as was publikely professed we should have done in such cases of concernment but also in the proceedings thereof as too severe and not managed according to the rules laid downe in the word In this case our Churches did mutually and universally acknowledge and submit to this as a sacred and undoubted principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches that as by vertue of that Apostolicall command Churches as well as particular men are bound to give no offence neither to Iew nor Gentile nor the Churches of God they live amongst So that in all cases of such offence or difference by the obligation of the Common Law of communion of Churches and for the vindication of the glory of Christ which in common they holdforth the Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence or complaint of the person wronged to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches offended thereat of what ever hath given the offence And further that by vertue of the same and like law of not partaking in other mens sins the Churches offended may and ought upon the impenitencie of those Churches persisting in their errour and miscarriage to pronounce that heavy sentence against them of with-drawing and renouncing all Christian communion with them untill they doe repent And further to declare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like And what further authority or proceedings purely Ecclesiasticall of one or many sister Churches towards another whole Church or Churches offending either the Scriptures doe holdforth or can rationally be put in execution without the Magistrates interposing a power of another nature unto which we upon his particular cognisance and examination of such causes professe ever to submit and also to

they held in difference which also they promised with all convenient speed in a short time should be brought in and then they would preach against them Now for the better keeping of the agreement and understanding one another for preventing mistakes and differences amongst us a Committee was chosen out of the Company some of them and some of our side to draw up the particulars in writing which was accordingly done and the Agreement under the hands of both sides for our part was to be left with M. Calamie at whose house we met that so if any difference did arise or complaint come we might recurre to the writing drawne up betweene us and accordingly doe Now this strict engagement entred into by you with the rest of your brethren in the Ministery for common ends brought by you here as one great ground of not attempting to make a party and of your deepe silence and forbearance no one thing that ever was done by you was more advantageous to your side and to the increasing of a party which indeed proved as it was feared it would and was by my selfe and some others objected as a ground against any such agreement for looke what came of the Declarations set out by the King by meanes of the Bishops that in the Arminian points there should be on both sides a totall silence in preaching and printing namely a greater prevailing of the Arminian points and spreading of them but a suppressing of the Orthodox so fell it out here for by that meanes nothing was preached nor printed against their way to hinder the growth of it but in the meane time many things were preached and printed for it our side made conscience of the promise and forbore totally preaching and printing For my owne part though for many Reasons I desired to have been excepted from the agreement as being engaged by a former promise in print to set out speedily some Tractates against their way and never did formally promise silence yet because my brethren undertooke for me for without my forbearing to print and preach they would not have yeelded to the Agreement that I might not be singular and goe against the Judgement of all my brethren though my Judgement was against the promise of silence upon what I evidently foresaw would follow upon it the advantage they would make by it to encrease a party and that I might not be guilty of hindering the common ends held out I did totally both in preaching and printing decline all those points of difference and notwithstanding I heard and knew that some of their side preached contrary to the agreement yet all that time untill it was openly declared in a full Assembly the agreement was broken and I declared I would be at freedome and some of them said the like I preached not upon those points whereas in this time many of their way preached for their way both in Citie and Countrey and some who by name were spoken of at the agreement as Mr P. and M. W. besides bookes were printed too in that interim for their way as M. Cottons answere to M. Ball about Formes of Prayer and his Church Catechisme c. In a word in the whole carriage of that businesse they were too hard for us by their policie and subtilty for whereas a mutuall silence was agreed upon both in preaching c. and that out of hand they should bring in a Narrative of their opinions wherein they differed from us and then should joyne with us in preaching against the Brownists and Anabaptists they never brought in their Narrative till this day and though at full meetings of the Ministers they have been spoken unto and some Ministers have been sent from the Company to some or one of them and the Narrative was promised at such a time and then at such a time yet it was never performed and whereas the agreement in writing for our side was left in M. Calamies hand M. Nye comes after some time to M. Calamy and pretends some reasons for to borrow it for a while but after he had it he carries it away into Yorkshire that so upon occasions of complaints of the breach of the agreement when we would have consulted with that that was gone and M. Nye keepes it till this day and having been moved to restore it his answer is it is at Hull amongst other papers 4. And above all the due respect we have had to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State the hopefull expectation we have been entertained with of an happy latitude and agreement by meanes of this Assembly and the wisdome of this Parliament Strong motives indeed peaceable and orderly Reformation with a hopefull expectation of an happy latitude and agreement powerfull and effectuall to have commanded peaceable and orderly men but though you make these grounds above all the rest to have carried weight yet they could no more prevaile with you then the forenamed as I have fully proved and whether you have had such due respect to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State let what followes speake Is it peaceable and orderly in a time when the Magistrate makes it his maine worke to reforme and cals so many godly learned Ministers from all parts to consult with to settle the Church and Government according to the Word of God for particular private men to gather Churches and to adde to them daily without and against the consent of the Magistrate yea against the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference now no one thing could hardly more occasion or augment the differences then this of gathering Churches according to your way one or two out of this godly Ministers Parish one or two out of this Family the wife from the husband against his consent c Againe is it peaceable and orderly for these gathered Churches to meet on the Sabbath day in private houses at the times of the publique Assemblies whereby great tumults and combustions have been and may be occasioned in the streets And is it a due respect to peaceable and orderly Reformation to preach publiquely upon points in difference and for a Toleration of divers Sects and opinions And lastly is that a due respect to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and Si●…te to see in Churches where you and other Ministers of your way have preached great tumults and disorders committed by your followers against the use of any part of the Lyturgie and yet never to reprove them for it nor to teach them to expect and wait till the Parliament would settle things which of you have preached against the tumults in Churches or the Lay-preaching or the gathering of Churches by the people We have had a sprinkling of a little Court holy-water for a colour

may be some just question about their own Now this Apologeticall Narration in all the parts of it both for matter and manner hath many flawes both of untruths and of doubtfull darke expressions consisting of generals c. The particulars I shall observe all along and give animadversions upon them in their proper place Now before I answer to all the particulars contained in this Narration I propound these two Questions to the Apologists to consider of Quest. 1. Considering that all of you fell not off from the dark part together nor upon enquiring into the light part at the same time that you went not over into Holland together neither lived in Holland nor England neere each other neither communicated principles at first to one another yea were not some of you for a good time so much as acquainted together besides that you were not all in the same condition with other different circumstances nay yet more that some of you as Mr Bridge and Mr Sympson for some yeares in Holland so opposite to one another How you five could in this Apologie all along both concerning matters of Fact and Opinion in England Holland and since your returne make such narrations and solemne professions both positively and negatively not only every man for himselfe but each in the Name of all and for all Amongst many instances I will name these 1. How you can in the third page every man for the other speake what is there expressed for suppose Mr Goodwin might looke upon the word of Christ as impartially and unprejudicedly c. yet how can Mr Goodwin speake this for Mr Sympson and Mr Bridge the condition they were in being different from his and I wonder how Mr Sympson and Mr Bridge can write this as agreeing to them both knowing so well the contrary and having in many words and letters to their friends charged each other with great partiality and self-seeking 2. How could you in the 6th page make that profession for one another that all that conscience of the defilements c. did never work in any of us any other thought much lesse opinion when as you knew not one anothers thoughts and opinions 3. How you can in the 24 and 25 pages write for one another which we had not attempted in the least we call God and men to witnesse our constant forbearance either to publish our opinions by preaching c. whenas you doe not know all that others of you may have done or preached Quest. 2. Seeing you doe in this Apologie write so often we have so and so and we have not we had not nor any of us supposing now some of you to have done or not to have done yet if it be found that any of you have done contrary whether are not the others guilty in this case and is not the proving such facts against any one or more of you a proving against you all and a direct confutation of your Apologie in those particulars For instance suppose Mr Ny and Mr Goodwin have not for their particulars published their opinions by preaching nor attempted in the least to make a partie but yet Mr Bridge Mr Sympson Mr Burroughs have and againe suppose Mr Goodwin Mr Ny Mr Bridge Mr Burroughs have not gathered nor added to their Churches multitudes but Mr Sympson only whither now Mr Goodwin and Mr Ny having made professions protestations in the Name of all are not faulty and guilty too and may not be justly charged in the Answer of untruths in such particulars though Mr Bridge and Mr Sympson should only be formally guilty The foure first lines of this Section containing the relation of your stations in the Ministery is granted you But as to that part of this Section The sinfull evill of those corruptions in the publike worship and government of this Church c. I desire to propound this question to you Whether by the sinfull evill of those corruptions in the publike worship and government of this Church you understand the things reputed to be established by law as the Book of Common Prayer The Entrance into our Ministery by Ordination of Bishops and living under the Episcopall government Or whether by the sinfull evill the Innovations in the government and worship as bowing to Altars c. which came in of later dayes Now if you meane the first that which usually was called Old conformity in opposition to the New So I deny that all doe now generally acknowledge and decrie that as sinfully evill which appeares thus Because that Remonstrance presented to the House of Commons in the beginning of the Parliament subscribed by many hundred godly Ministers conformists and non-conformists for Reformation in Worship Doctrine Government and Discipline The Government Worship and Ceremonies were impleaded in respect of many inconveniences and evill consequents but Petitioning against them as sinfully evill and absolutely unlawfull was declined And there are many Parliament men and Ministers who have a great zeale to the present Reformation in casting out the Hierarchy and Ceremonies who are not yet convinced that all their former practise in the way of old conformity was sinfull But as those times were doe judge they did lawfully continue their standing in their places and in this Church much lesse are they satisfied that either Episcopall government or the Lyturgy were sufficient grounds of forsaking our Publike Assemblies and erecting new Amongst a cloud of Learned and godly men take the testimony of Gerson Bucerus in his learned answer to Doctor Downham who for the point of Episcopacie allowes not of schisme in the Church but vindicates himselfe and others who keepe within the bounds of his opinion from being guilty in that kind Which Answer to the first part of this Section is not here given by me in the least to plead for the Hierarchy Ceremonies or present Liturgy for I heartily desire their removall but only to shew the Apologists mistake in asserting that all doe now so generally acknowledge and decrie them as sinfully evill And besides if you understand these you cannot be ignorant that Episcopacy and the old Ceremonies took hold upon the consciences of many others before you even upon the good old non-conformists you speake of afterwards Yea and upon many of your Brethren of the same time long before you as Mr R. Mr H. Mr Sl. Mr R. Mr A. Mr P. cum alijs who yet never ran into your principles of forsaking the publike Assemblies and gathering Churches so that many non-conformists leaving the Ceremonies before you and yet being farre from your Church-way may counter-ballance what you would gaine with the people by your Insinuations and Narrations of leaving the Ceremonies long before some of us But if by sinfull evill you meane the Innovations of bowing to Altars c. then those of us who stand for a generall Reformation did then acknowledge and decrie them and they took hold upon our consciences assoone as any of yours We as

right and as Magistrates have no power over Family-government to appoint whom I shall admit into my Family c. much lesse have they power over Christs Family this union of a Church is a spirituall right which is transcendently out of the sphere of the Magistrates authoritie and the Apostles taught the Saints to doe it without asking leave of the Magistrates yea not to for sake it though the Magistrates forbad it Heb. 10. 25. Now I beleeve you cannot show me any principle in Presbyteriall Government nor quote me the judgement of any Presbyterian that cuts short the power of the Orthodox Protestant Magistrate about Congregations and Assemblies as this doth 4. The Presbyterians doe grant the Magistrate a power about the publick exercise of the Ministerie that 't is so farre subject to the direction of the Magistrate that without his approbative authoritie or confirming authoritie or his toleration of it it ought not by the Church to be publikely begun in his territories nor practised Apollonius of Zeland who writ an answer to Vedellius by the command of the Wa●…achrian Classis was a great Presbyterian and in that answer must needs show it upon occasion of Vedelius giving so much to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things yet he grants the Magistrate this power about the exercise of the Ministerie Now whether your principles allow this to the Magistrate let your practises speake about your making Ministers and exercising of it as you doe 5. The Presbyterians grant to the Magistrates a power in private meetings as well as in publicke Churches over exercises there as well as those in the publick places So Voetius We reject that noveltie of the Remonstrants that the Magistrate hath no power in private meetings but onely in publike Temples Now whether you allow the Magistrates a power concerning your private meetings or onely over the publike meetings or whether you doe not with the Arminians make the ground of this power in the Magistrate the granting of a publike meeting-place I desire to be satisfied from you But by all this the Reader may see in these particulars you doe not give more power to the Magistrate for the Presbyterians give what you give and not onely so but they give that which you denie and so give more then you But Brethren wherein and in what doe you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians Had you exprest wherein the Presbyterians give too little to the Magistrates power and in what their principles are defective and wherein you give more you had dealt fairely and ingeniously and a man might have knowne where to have had you and how to have answered you but to accuse thus in the generall and not to signifie the crime is not just but as you do throughout your Apologie under the figge-leaves of darke doubtfull generall speeches cover your opinions least your nakednesse should appeare so in this place but not to let you goe away thus but that I may drive you out of your holes and thickets and divest you of your coverings and that I may a little take off the Odium and suspition that Presbyteriall Government may lie under amongst many who know not their principles by reason of this passage of yours The Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld I will propound some questions to you to draw out what you hold about the power of the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things and to give some further light for the present of the Presbyterian principles concerning the power of Magistrates referving the particular laying downe what the Presbyterians give to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things and what not till my Rejoynder shall come out to your Replie 1. Whether the power of the Magistrate about Ecclesiasticall things be a power extrinsecall objective coercive indirect mediate accidentall and consequent or spirituall intrinsecall formall proper and antecedent Now concerning the first the Presbyterians give as much to the Magistrate as you nay more as hath been partly shewed alreadie but for the other the spirituall intrinsecall formall c. If you ascribe that to the Magistrate as I thinke you doe not nor your principles do not yeeld it unlesse according to your second great principle laid downe in the 10. and 11. page you are since the Assembly to please the Parliament the more as you may imagine come off from your former judgement and practise I doe referre you for satisfaction to the three most learned select Disputations of Voetius and unto Wa●…us excellent answer to the tractate of Uttengobardus so strong that the Authour could never reply againe though in a booke published he promised to doe it and unto Apollonius learned answer to Vedelius Dissertation 2. I aske of you whether the civill power doth containe the Ecclesiasticall formally and eminently so as that power can give and produce the other or whether there is an intrinsecall dependance of the Ecclesiasticall upon the Politicall in their nature forme and exercise of them or whether there doth not reside in the Church all Ecclesiasticall power absolutely necessarie to the building up of the Kingdome of Christ and salvation of men even when the Magistrate is not of the Church 3. I aske of you whether in writing this passage of your Apologie you considered and remembred all those differences and distinctions given by so many excellent Divines as Iunius Zanchius Amesius c. concerning those two powers Civill and Ecclesiasticall and their Administration and in particular amongst the rest that difference taken from their matter and the subject wherein they make the subject of politicall administration to be humane things and matters but of Ecclesiasticall to be divine and sacred and if so whether doe not Presbyterians according to those differences and distinctions which distinctions are acknowledged also by your selves as by M. Robinson and by some of you in your printed bookes as I remember give the Magistrate that power in Ecclesiasticals which is given him in the word of God 4. Considering all Ecclesiasticall power and right is commonly by Divines reduced to a three-fold head namely potestas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which of these powers doe you give more to the Magistrates then the Presbyterians or in all of them doe you give more or doe you not For the present that power you seem to give the Magistrate and intimate it that you give more then the Pres●…eriall principles allow as may be gathered from the following words in p. 19. from those words in p. 17. The Magistrates interposing a power of an other nature unto which we upon his particular coguizance and examination of such causes profes ever to submit and also to be most willing to have recourse unto must fall under the last head of the power of judging and determining in matters Ecclesiastical and that upon