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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A69195	Certaine demandes with their grounds, drawne out of holy writ, and propounded in foro conscientiæ by some religious gentl. vnto the reverend fathers, Richard archbishop of Canterbury, Richard bishop of London, William bishop of Lincolne, Garvase bishop of Worcester, William bishop of Exeter, & Thomas bishop of Peterbourough wherevnto the said gentl. require that it would please their lordships to make a true, plaine, direct, honest and resolute aunswere.	Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610.	1605 (1605)	STC 6572.5; ESTC S112734	57,418	70

crosse is a token of these invisible spirituall graces then againe we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt whether God did ever ordeine any invisible signes to bee invisible tokens of invisible graces yea or no And if God did never ordeine such signes then we demand what authoritie man hath to ordeine such signes But if your Lordships shall answere negatively viz that the invisible signe of the crosse imaginarily pretended to bee made by the Minister is not a token of these inward and spirituall graces then wee demande whether your Lordships with your owne mouthes pronounce not that thing to be false which the booke of common prayer commandeth every Minister with his lips to proclaime to be true But Sirs by your leave the Church hath power from Christ to ordeyne rites and ceremonies and the Magistrate may command that all things be done decently and according to order in the time of prayer and administration of Sacraments Yea and so say we too Nay wee say more that the Christian Magistrate knowing any thing to be done vndecently and vnorderly shall sinne against God if by his authority he take not order for reformation of such disorder but by your Lordships favour the question is not whether the Church may ordeine Rites and Ceremonies or whether the Christian Magistrate may command such things as by the Apostles doctrine are to be done that the same be done decently and orderly but the question is whether all rites and ceremonies indefinitlie and without limitation approved by the Church and commaunded by the Magistrate to bee decent and to be in order be in deed and without contradiction absolutely decent and absolutely in order And for this cause and in this regarde only both by ministers and people without any search or inquisitiō of their agreeablenes with holy writt absolutely to be receyved as if the same by some holy oracle were immediatly sent vnto them from God For be it supposed that some rites and ceremonies ordeyned by the Church and commaunded by the Christian Magistrate be of the nature of things either vnlawfull or inexpedient or that they be vaine idle vnnecessarie and vnprofitable things in these cases we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt whether the Apostles rule of having all things to be done decently and according to order in the Church cease not For how should those things be done decently and orderly in the Church for the which the Church hath no warrant that the same should be done at all The Apostle then having taught the Corinthians that the thinges which he wrote were the commaundements of the Lord and concluding that all things treated of by him in the former partes of that chapter touching the right vse of spirituall giftes are to bee done decently and in order we demaund whether your Lordships from this apostolicall rule can religiouslie conclude any otherwise then thus All the commaundements and all the spirituall giftes of the Lord are to be done and vsed in the Church decently and orderly But the wearing of a Surplice in tyme of prayer and administration of Sacramentes the making of a Crosse vpon the childes forehead c. And kneeling in the act of receyving bread and wine at the Lordes Table bee spirituall giftes or at leastwise be the commaundements of the Lord Therefore these things are to be done decently and in order But now if your Lordships beeing not able to strengthen your minor proposition by any place of holy Writt shall make the same answere which the Romanistes frame in all like cases for the Authoritie of their church namely that the Ministers and people ought preciselie to observe and doe these thinges if not propter Authoritatem Apostolicam yet propter authoritatem Ecclesiae seu Christiani Magistratus sic statuentis Then doe your Lordships but as they doe even runne from the Rock and buyld vpon the Sand yea and besides flee from the poynte in question making the Church and Christian Magistrate not only to be preservers but commanders of all Evangelicall decencie and order And then might not this consequution and conclusion infallibly be true What soever thinges by the Church with consent of the Christian Magistrate be or shal be appointed for Evangelicall decencie and order in the Church the same without all exception and challendge of any vndecencie or disorder must and ought to be receyved of every member of the Church for decent and orderlie thinges But all such and such things by the Church with consent of the Christian Magistrate be appointed c. Therefore all such and such things must ought without all exception be receyved c. Yea Sirs and is not this a good consequution and doeth not this conclusion necessarilie followe For who shall be Iudge of Evangelicall decencie and order if not the Church and Christian Magistrate alone Before we answere vnto this question wee denie your proposition because the same seemeth vnto vs to be rather an inversion then a true conversion of the Apostles rule viz. Let all things be done decently and in order The meaning whereof according to the Analogie of the place we take to be this namely that all thinges or what soever thinges are to be done in the Church that the same thinges ought to bee done decently and in order But what agreement we pray you hath this rule with your proposition or what coherence hath your proposition with this rule for by what arte can you frame this your proposition vpon the Apostles foundation This your proposition wee saye namely all things or whatsoever things the Church with consent of the Christian Magistrate shall authorize for decencie and order the same are all decent and orderly things Indeed if this your propositiō could be proved true by any doctrine drawne from any other place of holy Writt we would easilie graunt the church with consent of the christian Magistrate having commanded Copes Surplices Crosses kneelings c. to be vsed in the church that this the Apostles rule did binde all those to kneele to make crosses and to weare Copes and Surplices not vngaynely disorderly or slovenly but comely hansomely and netely but seeing your proposition is false and can not by any other place of holy scripture be proved true you have drawne in the Apostles rule as it were by the hayre and pluckt it in as it were by the heeles to a wrong purpose and forced it to a wronge sense Furthermore because these wordes decencie and order mencioned in your proposition carrie a double sense we pray your Lordships to resolve vs whether by these wordes decencie order you meane simplie such a decencie and such an order as for the allowance whereof playne and evident testimonies may be founde in holy Writt that the same decencie and order is pleasing vnto God or whether you meane such a decencie and order only as for the which we having no other warrant

by his owne knowledge This people have removed their hearte farr from me and their feare toward me was taught by the precept of man In vaine they worship mee teaching for doctrines the precepts of men From which grounds we demand Whether your Lordships can prove out of holy Writt that there can be a service yealded vnto God where God hath not given a commandement Whether the more a man thinketh to doe any thinge by his owne wisedome and not as God instructeth him the more he doe not prove him selfe to be a vile beast Whether any thing can be acceptable in the sight of God which he never required at our handes Whether God wil be honored according to mans fantasie or rather doth not detest whatsoever is not grounded vpon his worde If your Lordships for the avoyding of these demandes shall deny the feigned making of a crosse and feigned signing of the childe in the forehead with a crosse in the administration of Baptisme to be any service or to be any worship vnto God and therefore neither voluntarie service neither will-worship vnto God then we demaunde for what intent or to what end the making of a Crosse and signinge the forehead of the childe with a crosse is commaunded as a necessarie service to be performed by the Minister in that publique acte of Gods worship for if the forme and manner of Gods worship as you say be established prescribed conteyned in the booke of common prayer if also the ministration of the Sacrament commaunded in that booke be as you say no corrupt superstitious or vnlawfull worship neither conteyning any thing in it that is repugnant to the scriptures how should not the making of a Crosse and signing of the childe in the forehead with a crosse but be a pure a religious a lawfull worship vnto God Besides if making a crosse vpon the childes forehead and signing the forehead of the childe with a crosse be no act of gods worship in the administration of Baptisme Then we demaund how the Minister in foro cōscientiae can be guiltles of taking the holy name of God in vaine when as in the act of Gods service and worship hee doth neither worship nor serve God But Sirs by your patience the Minister in obeying the authoritie of the Church when shee commaundeth him to make a Crosse herein obeyeth God Why then by your Lordships favour wee demaund whether the church doe serve God or doe but please her selfe in that her cōmandment For say we where no commaundement of God there no service vnto God And therefore if the Church by such her commaundement doe but please hir selfe and not serve and please God Then we demaund whether the Church in thus pleasing her selfe and not serving ●od doe not offend God asmuch nay rather more then if shee had commaunded a voluntarie service and a will-worship vnto God But Sirs the acte of making a Crosse and signing the childe in the forehead with a crosse is no parte of baptisme for we graunt that baptisme is perfect and absolute without it But yet by your Lordships favour the question is not whether making of a crosse or signing with a crosse be any parte of baptisme but whether making of a crosse and signing with a crosse be any parte of the continued acte of the outward and divine worship given vnto God in the publick administration of baptisme For if it be a meere traditionall and no divine or religious action or if it be partly traditional and partly divine we still vrge your Lordships to prove vnto vs by the holy scriptures whether it were ever lawfull in any act of Gods worship to act a thing meerely traditionall or partly traditionall and partly divine As for the action of sitting standing kneeling going reading praying preaching and if there be any other Divine naturall or necessarie actions powers or faculties of the body or minde without which no outward service can be yealded vnto God We confesse that the Church with the Magistrates consent may determine of the comely and orderly acting of these things because Aliquo per Deum mandato omnia ea mandantur ne quibus illud mandatum commodè religiosè adimpleri non potest And therefore those divine necessarie and naturall actions before remembred depending vpon or proceeding from the powers and faculties of the bodie or mind being such as without which the outward service of God can not commodiously decently and orderly be accomplished we affirme that they be confirmed vnto vs from generall rules of holy writ And this also may serve for an answere for the having of water a vessell to conteyne water because as water of necessitie is required to the administration of baptisme so must also water we having no waters running through our churches of necessitie be cōteyned in some vessell but as for making a crosse or signing the forehead of the child with a crosse in baptisme because the same by your confession is no part of Baptisme And because also the same is not properly and simply any necessary naturall or divine actiō as without which Baptisme can not be administred Nay because it is such an action as without which Baptisme very decently and orderly may be administred wee pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt how the Minister may acte the signe in the outward acte of Gods worship And yet not breake as earst hath bene said either the second commandement by outwardly serving God otherwise then hee hath commanded in his worde or not violate the thirde commandement by taking his holy Name in vaine But by your patience Sirs this making a crosse vpon the childes forehead and this signing him with a signe of the crosse in token c. though the same be no part of Baptisme nor any parte of the outward worship of God nor any naturall nor necessarie action of the body or mind without which Baptisme can not be administred yet is the same a solemnitie an ornament apperteyning vnto Baptisme by the order of the church which ought not to be omitted and left vndone But by your Lordships favour this your Apologie is of no fresher hue nor of any deeper dye then wherewith the great Papistes and fond Canonistes have alwayes bepainted and becouloured their signing their salting their spitteling their oyling their chrismating and their other such like solemnities according to these verses Sal oleum chrisma cereus chrismate saliua Flatus virtutem Baptismatis ista figurant Haec cum patrinis non mutant esse sed ornant And therefore we pray your Lordships to resolve vs by some place of holy Writt whether the Papists and you or either of you be inabled to invent or ordeyne such solemnities ornaments signes figures of crosses to be vsed in the publique administration of Baptisme as never once came in the mind of God to have devised or vsed And so much the rather

doe wee desire your Lordships resolutions herein because there is no maner of solemnitie signe figure or ornament of a crosse required by the book of cōmon prayer to be vsed in that administration of Baptisme which in the same book is intituled private Baptisme For if Baptisme without any reall solemnitie or actuall ornament of a crosse or of the signe of a crosse may bee administred privately how much more without these humane solemnities and ornamentes might baptisme be administred publiquelie There being then in the Church of England two formes maners of the administration of Baptisme the one private the other publike the one with a crosse the other without a crosse and both of these concluded by your late Canons not to be corrupt superstitious or vnlawfull by meanes also whereof there is to be seene no cōformitie or vniformitie betwene having solemnities ornaments of crosses signes of crosses in publike baptisme betwene the not having solemnities and ornaments of crosses and signes of crosses in private baptisme we pray your Ll. to resolve vs out of holy writ whether these ornaments solemnities of crosses signes of crosses for the stability of publike peace quiet in the church the not enforcing of any mans conscience with the vse of the crosse might not aswell be left out in the administratiō of publike as it is in the administratiō of private baptisme For whether respect be had to the brethren offended or made weake by the vse therof or whether we regard the not cōfirming strenghtening of the superstitious in their error there is farr much more danger like to ensue both to the one sorte to the other by the vse of it in publike then in private Baptisme by reason that the assembly generally is evermore great in the one and never but small in the other But to let passe this deformitie of crossing not crossing in publik private baptisme we will prosecute some few demands not yet moved concerning the feigned imaginarie and ayrie crossing vsed in publike Baptisme And first we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy writ how a Minister in foro conscientiae can be cleare without sinne when as in the same publike continewed act of Gods worship imaginarily feignedly he shal affirme the doing of a thing w ch indeed in trueth he doth not ne possibly can do if the Minister then without some instrumēt chalk rudle or such like can make no crosse vpon the childs forehead and yet shall say as the booke prescribeth that he signeth him with the signe of the crosse what a grosse fitten call ye that To affirme that the passing of the Ministers hand thūme or finger croswise in the ayre over the childs forehead is to make a crosse vpon the childs forehead that the same passing in the ayre is also the signe of a crosse this we say to affirme is as if a man should assevere that the flying of a bird in the ayre the slyding of a serpent vpon a stone leaveth a bird and the signe of a bird in the ayre a serpent and the signe of a serpent vpon a stone And to say that there is an invisible crosse or a signe of an invisible signe of a crosse remaining in the ayre over the childes forehead how absurd and without all reason that saying is we leave to your Lordships considerations For if it be vnpossible to make a crosse or the signe of a crosse vpon the running water much more vnpossible is it to make a crosse or the signe of a crosse in the subtile and replenishing ayre wherefore vnlesse your Lordships can prove by some rule of holy Writt that every Minister is indowed with power from above to make crosses and signes of crosses which be invisible and that these invisible signes and crosses be also invisible tokens in the childes forehead of his being not ashamed of Christ crucified of his manfull fighting c. we demand what good plea in foro conscientiae your Lordships can frame to dischardge the Minister from being guilty of a thrice feigned imaginary lying crosse we say thrice faigned at the least First we receive and doe signe thee secondly with the signe and thirdly of the Crosse And what if we saide fourthly in token for what token can the child or his witnesse in his name receive keepe when as neither he nor they have any crosse any signe or any token of a crosse given or delivered vnto them at all which maner of crossing signing and tokening may well bee compared to our atturnies proceeding by signes and profers signes and profers when indeed by such their pleadings they hasten not but delay their clyents causes only making signes and profers signes and profers as though by this meanes they hastened to an end when as indeed they mind nothing lesse But to speake no more of the Ministers feigned signes and profers of making crosses signes of crosses in the ayre vpon or over the childs forehead Wee demand whether not to be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ crucified whether not to be ashamed manfully to fight vnder his banner against sinne the world and the divell whether not to be ashamed to continewe Christes faithfull souldier and servant to his lifes end We demand we say whether these three graces be not all every of them inward invisible and spirituall graces yea or no If your Lordships answere as the trueth is that these graces be all spiritual invisible inward graces then because by the book of common prayer so the Minister make a crosse it is not materiall of what forme the crosse be made we demand by what rules of holy writ your Lordships can prove that the signe of the crosse of saint Iohns of Ierusalem the signe of saint Andrews crosse the signe of saint Peters crosse the signe of the crosse made after the Greeke T. or like the Hebrew χ. or like the Greeke X. or the signe of any other crosse for there be divers other formes of crosses can be a token of these spirituall and invisible graces if so be they were engraven with a Diamond vpon the childes forehead If your Lordships answere affirmatively that the signe of saint Andrewes crosse of saint Iohns crosse of saint Peters crosse or the signe of any other crosse made by the Minister vpon the childes forehead is a token of these inward spiritual and invisible graces then we demand whether your Lordships ascribe not like power to every minister for the trāsubstantiation of every invisible crosse feinedly made in the administration of Baptisme to the forme of a true visible crosse as the Pope attributeth to every Prieste for the transubstantiation of every piece of bread wherevpon he bloweth at the Altar into the Body of Christ or if your Lordships answere because there is no crosse sensibly to be seene but intelligiblie to be vnderstood that the imaginary feigned ayrie

outward forme and maner of acting any service vnto God by our Saviour Christ or his Apostles in prayer preaching the word administring the Sacraments was an vnorderly or an vndecent forme or maner of acting that service before God yea or no If your Lordships answere as the trueth is that the outward maner of acting every kind of service by our Saviour Christ his Apostles was so decently orderly done and so acceptable vnto God as nothing in the outward acting thereof could be more wee then pray your Lordships to resolve vs first what warrant you have out of holy writt to disseyse all the Ministers of the outward acting of the whole worship of God in prayer and administring the Sacraments without a Surplice Secondly what warrant you have from the spirit of Christ to disseyse all the Ministers of the acting of some part of Gods worship in the administration of publike Baptisme without making a crosse vpon the childes forehead and signing him with the signe of the crosse Lastly what approbation you have from the spirit of Christ wholy to disseyse all the sonnes and daughters of God of the acte of sitting in the acte of receiving the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper For in that you have commanded that no Minister when he celebrateth the communiō shall wittingly administer the same to any but to such as kneel you haue by consequence inhibited every one that sitteth to receive the same And thus to establish your owne humane decencie and order of kneeling in the acte of receiving the communion you have disseysed vs of that Euangelicall decencie and order of sitting warranted vnto the Ministers and vnto vs by the example of our Saviour Christ and his Apostles whē as at his last Supper he him self delivered both the Bread and the Wine vnto his Apostles as they sate and not as they kneeled at the Table whereby it appeareth that you looked not vnto the holy one of Israell nor sought vnto the Lord and he yet is wisest But Sirs by your patience it is not required as a thing of meere necessitie as though without kneeling the Sacrament might not lawfully be ministred and received at all but for reverence and conformities sake only it is commanded that the people should kneele Why then by your Lordships favour we demand vnto whom this reverence is yealded and vnto what thing this conformitie is proportioned for that this forme of kneeling is not conformed to the Apostles maner of sitting at the table is evident nether can it be denyed but that this kinde of reverence is fashioned like to that maner of reverence which every catholicke fornicatour by the ordinance of his love the great whore doeth yealde vnto his Idoll when he received his breaden god wherefore we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt whether your conformitie and your reverence of kneeling in the acte of receiving the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper may not rightly be condemned as things not having any due reverence conformitie or proportion with the written Law of God or example of our Saviour Christ and his Apostles before mencioned Besides we demand whether your Lordships had not worthely deserved to have bene much praised and commended by all the churches for that thanks might have bene given by many vnto God for you if so be for reverence vnto the example of our Saviour Christ who did all things well and conformitie to his Apostles ye had commanded the people not to have kneeled in the acte of receiving after the fashion of the catholicke fornicatours who doe all things ill but rather to have sitten after the maner of the Apostles especially sithence betwene this maner prescribed of receiving the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper kneeling the maner of the receiving the Sacrament of Baptisme yea and the word it selfe sitting or standing and not kneeling there can be found no maner of conformitie at all And yet as we deny not when we come to the Font or to the Sermon both before after the Word preached and Baptisme administred but that we ought reverently and vniformely to kneele in prayer thankesgiving prescribed by the booke Even so also we acknowledge when we come to the Lords Table that before and after the deliverie and receiving of the Sacrament we ought to confesse our sinnes to pray and to give thankes reverently and vniformely kneeling vpon our knees But that we should more kneele in the very acte of receiving Bread and Wine at the Ministers hand at the Lords Table then in the name of our children in the very acte of our childrens receiving Water vpon their faces or being dipt in Water wee should kneele at the Font in the time of Baptisme we for our partes must confesse that as yet this mysterie of conformitie and reverence to kneele in the acte of receiving the communion is hidden from vs because we see no more needfulnesse of reverence and conformitie for kneeling to be in the acte of receiving the one Sacrament then to be in the act of receiving the other nor that there is any greater reverence or conformitie of kneeling to bee vsed when the Minister breaketh bread for our bodyes which perisheth at the communion Table then when he breaketh the bread of life for our soules which perisheth not in the Pulpit Nay furthermore what conformitie is there prescribed in the booke of common prayer when in one the same church and in one the same act of receiving the Lords Supper it permitteth the Minister to receive standing and prescribeth the people to receive kneeling or what greater reverence is there required by the sheepe then is to be performed by the sheepheard who should be an example to the flocke The words of the book for the Ministers standing when he receiveth the communion seeme vnto vs to bee so perspicuous and without all maner of ambiguitie as without an absurditie they can not bee construed to command a Minister to kneele for the maner how the Minister of the place or how other Ministers if any be present to helpe him should receive is not prescribed at all vnlesse it be prescribed that he and they should receive standing Nay howsoever in the same book it be said that the Minister shall deliver the communion in both kindes to the people in their hands kneeling neverthelesse it followeth not herevpon the law being not in the negative but in the affirmative that the Minister may not deliver the communion to the people standing or sitting or that the people be exactly bound not to stand or to sitt but to kneele Besides because by the booke of common prayer of the seconde of Edw. 6. wherevnto only as we take it touching ornaments rites and ceremonies our booke hath reference which booke also of Edw. the 6. by the repeale made of the statute of primo of Queene Mary in the first session of this last Parliament is revived because we say

estimation to the honor and dignitie of our Christian King and the noblenes of his kingly charitie declared by his proclamation as that hereafter in your consistories and publique seates of Iudgement you would vse conferences arguments and perswasions wayes of love and gentlenes workings by clemencie and weight of reason to reclayme all that be in the ministerie to the obedience of the church lawes according as by the Kings proclamation you are required rather thē by rigour of law shaking the kings sword and pressing the kings commandement to enforce the trembling consciences of your weake brethren contrarie to the Kings most noble christian intention plainly vttered by his proclamation There be sundrie other poyntes in his Maiesties proclamation which by your Lordships worthily deserved consideration before you had begun those violēt courses which some of you have pursued in this case The peremptory day assigned to the Ministers for their conformitie by the King being of more authoritie then 1000. of your canonicall admonitious would have bene fully expired before you had troubled the Ministers about this matter otherwise then by conferences argumentes perswasions c. All Ministers who had incurred no censures of the church or penalties of the law in the Queenes tyme or since the Kings raigne before the sixth of Iuly 1604. be exempted out of the proclamation though before the day appointed they have not conformed them selves to the orders of the Church And yet many such have you disquieted The Lawes and orders of the Church remayne very vncerteyne so as it is not certeyne to what lawes and orders established the ministers should conforme them selves And yet before the day expired you have vrged some Ministers to cōforme them selves to Canons divulged since the Proclamation The Canon law is vtterly voyd within the Realme and therefore your oath of Canonicall obedience is of no force and all your Canonicall admonitions not worth a rush The old provinciall constitutions intreat of no such oath besides they litle or nothing respect any orders or ceremonies of our Church To which booke of common prayer the Ministers should subscribe in that maner and forme as by the Canon is required is not decided If they subscribe to the booke published since the Kings raigne they may then be called into question at every sessions assises for vsing an other forme then is prescribed in the Queenes booke the same remayning still in force vnrepealed if subscription be vrged to the Queenes booke then may not the Ministers yeeld therevnto because the Kinge and Bishops have concluded to reforme some things conteyned in the same as being repugnant to the holy word of God Besides the booke of common prayer of the second of Edward 6. touching ornamentes rites and ceremonies and wherevnto for the same respect both the Queenes and the Kings booke hath reference revived this last Parliament by disannulling the statute of repeale made the first of Queene Mary This book we say of the 2. of Edw. 6 establishing other ornaments rites and ceremonies then the former bookes doe some of those ceremonies also to be vsed or at least at every mans devotion and the ornaments after another maner thē ours make vs greatly to stand in doubt whether all ceremonies conteyned in every of these bookes or but some or which of them are to be vsed yea or no. Touching the late Canons of what authoritie many of them be may iustly be questioned because some of them seeme vnto vs to be contrariant or repugnant to the lawes statutes customes of the realme som to be derogatorie to the Kings prerogative royall and other some to be repugnant to the holy word of God and therefore in all these three respects to be voyd canons by the common law statutes of the realme Lastly howsoever some ministers might be within the cōpasse of the proclamation not conforming them selves before the last of Novēb to the lawes established before the 16. of Iuly neverthelesse the Bishops after the day expired ought to have attēded the Kings pleasure by what wayes and meanes he had determined to take from among the people all occasions of sectes divisions and vnquietnes much lesse before the day should they have attempted any thing vnlesse as the proclamation requireth them they had provided meete persons to bee substitutes in the places of those who wilfully had abandoned their charges These things being thus most providently nobly and Royally for the quietnes of the church set forth by the Kings proclamation it had bene a parte of very great wisedome and moderation for your Lordships in our opinions paciently to have expected the Kings further direction before by your vntimely pressing the kinges commandement authoritie and rigour of his lawes ye had indevoured the inforcing of their consciences without perswasions by weight of reason And so much the rather should your Lordships have done this that hereby ye might have satisfied all civill Magistrates Gentlemen and others of vnderstandinge that they seeing by your conferences argumentes perswasions love gentlenes clemencie and weight of reason that the cause which you maintayne not that which they impugne is good might not in any sorte have supported favoured or countenanced any factious ministers in their obstinacie as by the proclamation they are required And yet by your Lordships favour not to conceale any thing which hetherto we have as we thinke rightly conceaved of the Kinges proclamation we can not but informe your Lordships that by the same the King hath more tēdered the good estate of the ministers of their controversie in hand then ever was tēdred by any former Prince since poperie was banished For when was there in England before this time by any kingly proclamation any conference argument perswasion love gentlenes clemencie weight of reason commanded rigor of the law forbidden to be vsed by the Archbishops Bishops for the reclayming of the ministers to the lawes of the church When were any ministers by publike authoritie called as it were into open field to stand vpon arguments and weight of reason Whē was it appointed by publike authoritie that any ministers should answere and that Archbishops Bishops should oppose that the ministers should be defendants and the Bishops plaintifes When was it proclaymed by any Princes authoritie that the Archbishops and Bishops to their vttermost indevours by argumentes and weight of reason should prove vnto the ministers that the book of cōmon prayer bookes of homilies booke of cōsecrating Bishops Priests and Deacons book of Articles and other lawes orders of the church conteyne nothing in the whole or in any parte disagreeable either in doctrine or governement to the word of God All which things by the proclamation are intended should be done which things also if the Archbishops Bishops have done thē indeed we confesse the ministers that have not yeelded to conforme thēselves to be wilfull the King to be righteous for

by this booke of common prayer of the second of Edw. 6. kneeling crossing holding vp of handes knocking vpon the breaste and other gestures are to bee vsed at least as every mans devotion serveth without blame We pray your Lordships to suffer vs without blame and danger of your late canons peaceably and quietly to enioy and possesse our libertie That so we may receyve the communion sitting standing or kneeling as everie mans devotion serveth And thus much for our full and perfect answere vnto your questions of disseysing the church of her evangelicall decencie and order and of reverence and conformitie in kneeling in the act of receyving the cōmunion wherevpon we most instantly pray your Lordships that you would be well pleased vpon your second thoughtes to heale your former errours And withall to be content not only to suppresse the vse of your Copes Surplices making of Crosses signing with Crosses tokening with Crosses kneeling c. But also to restore our possession and to give vs livery and seysin of all those decencies conformities and reverend maner of prayer preaching the word receiving and administring the Sacramentes without Copes Surplices Crosses and kneelings whereof the Churches were seysed in the Apostles tymes And which being moderated by the wisdome and authoritie of our Saviour Christ we are most assured can not be but well-pleasing vnto God But Sirs by your patience our Christian Magistrate imposeth them as matters of order according to that forme wherein he found the church at his coming and this his pleasure must commaund may satisfie vs if it should please the King not to commaund them wee for our partes could be well content not to vrge them See see what a dalliance is this in a matter of so high a qualitie and touching the dignitie preheminence of so excellent a person what was your melody yesterday and that in the presence of the King and assemblie of his Nobles was your melody but yesterday we say viz. No ceremonie no Bishop no Bishop no King and can your Lordships to day sitting Iudicially in your Consistory to censure the Ministers for not conformitie thus sudenly change your note and cry openly No commaundement of ceremonies by the King no imposition of ceremonies by the Bishop For is it not as if you should have layde the whole blame vpon the King and have spoken thus No ceremonious King no ceremonious Bishop And yet for all this do not all men know that your Lordships were too too ceremonious and too too great masters of ceremonies before ever the King saw your faces And how then cometh it to passe ceremonies having hitherto ben vpheld by your Lordlines that your Lordlines should not now stande but by ceremonies or how cometh it to passe your Lordlines heretofore being propped vp by the crowne and scepter of our late Queene that your Lordlines should now vphold the scepter crowne of our Christian King This your Lordships gradation therefore made vpon the first day from the not being of a Ceremonie to the not being of a Bishop to the not being of a King And this your protestation made vpon the next day of the being of a Kinge to the being of a ceremonie what ells doeth the one and the other argue and importe but a feare and a suspition if the King should once commande downe your lawes of Ceremonies that the Lawes of your Lordlinesse likewise would of them selves sone after fall to the ground And therefore whether the King did conceive that you might but glose and flatter with your gradation or whether poore simple and playne meaning men might be seduced by your protestation we know not neither is it our purpose to enquire Only we can not but much marveile that each of you professing him selfe to be a Gad and to be a Nathan to be a Seer and to be a Prophet vnto our christian Magistrate should thus protest thus chardge the King to be the only spirit by whom your selves doe speake and the only prophet from whom your selves doe learne Nay what a thinge is this your Lordships prophesying vnto the King in the name of the Lord That your rites and ceremonies are no way contrariant or repugnant but every way agreeable and consonant to the holy word of God and meete to be reteyned aswell for the manner and forme of Gods worship as for edification of the church should notwithstanding openly avow the Kings pleasure and the Kings command to be the fountayne and welspring of your prophesies Nay which is more your selves making for your selves Ceremonious hornes of Iron assuring the king that with the same he should be able to overthrowe and push downe al such as by your Lordships be falsely called puritanes What a thing is this that you should notwithstanding proclayme the kings minde to be as it were the only mould wherein your ceremonies were cast Nay which is more What a thing is this your Lordships assuring to your selves to bee the chiefest of the Lordes Priestes and Levites should notwithstanding put the holy Censores into his Maiesties hand and laye the holy Arcke of the Covenaunt vpon the kinges shoulders to burne incense and to beare it and to carrye it him selfe alone Nay which is more What a thing is this your Lordships by a definitive sentence publickly given read and divulged in your sacred so called Synod having not only iudicially decreed the lawfulnes of ornaments rites and ceremonies but also humbly and professedly desired the same to be cōfirmed by the Kings royal authoritie vnder the broad Seale of England that you should notwithstanding for the execution of your said Decree call to witnes the Kings commaund and the Kings pleasure As though the Kings pleasure and commaund were the only cause and not the effect of your decree and not rather your decree the only cause and not the effect of his Highnes commaund Your second canon by which the same power is iustly as we cōfesse given to our Sovereigne Lord the King in causes ecclesiasticall that the godly Kings had among the Iewes will not serve to excuse you in the making of your canons if any of them be blame worthie for the godly Kings of Iudah never had any authoritie to command what ceremonies should be ordeyned among the lewes Neither did King David neither any other of the godly kings of Iudah doe any thing in building of the Temple in distribution of offices among the Levites or in any manner services performed to the Lord but the same was sent vnto them in writing from the hand of the Lord or by the mouth of the Prophetes or by casting of Lott What soever authoritie then the godly Kings of Iudah had to command ceremonies once made to be observed the same authoritie and none other in matter of ceremonies doeth your canon yeald vnto the King And therfore we beseech your Lordships hereafter to carry such a loyall and conscionable reverence and