God left for the ordering of his owne howse for as the Apostle saith Hebr. 3 3. he Yea and his ordinances are worthy of more honour then Moses his were And he that addeth vnto the wordes of this book that is to the true order of the church and pure worship of God conteyned therin the Lord God wil adde vnto him of the plagues that are written in this book saith the spirit of God Reuel 22 19. F. Yow allow of M. Luther I am sure what office had he P. He was first a moncke and so a member by his office of the kingdome of Antichrist euen a good while after the Lord had vsed him as a notable instrument to ouerthrow that kingdome afterward he was vtterly disgraded and depriued of al offices so that as the spirit of God saith Reu. 13. 17. he could neither buy nor sel by vertue of any libertie or freedome that he had within the kingdome of the Beast And by this meanes in the Lords great favour he caried not in this regarde any of the Beastes markes he was not of his name nor of the number of his name he denied himself to belong to that kingdome of Satan and that malignant church vtterly refused him to be any of her body and members Since his excommunication and degradation by the Romish church he nameth himself Ecclesiasten in a book of his so 〈…〉 that is a preacher of Christes blessed truth and gospel Now whither he preached by vertue of a lawful office whervnto he was called in the church of Christ or whither he taught bâ— vertue of his giftes and the opportunitie which he had to manifest the truth hauing neither time nor leisure nor yet thinking it needful it mar be to consider by what office he did it I know not of this I am assured that he was one of the famous and glorious witnesses of the Lo. Jesus raised vp to testifie on his behalfe against the abominations of the kingdome of Antichrist and I am assured that by his tongue and pen the Lo. appeared glorioussie in the power of his gospel to the consumption of that man of sin 2. Thes 2 8. Of his office I iudge the best as of a matter vnknowne vnto me that is I thinke him to haue had a pastoral office in the church of Wittemberg whither he had or not his example is no law for the church to walke by it is Chr. Jesus alone that we must heare and folow according to his wil and word must we frame our walking and if it be an Angel from heauen that wil draw vs to swarue from the same we dare not giue eare vnto him Gal. 1. 8. 9. F. And what office had yow in powr church which meet in woods and I know not where P. I haue no office in that pore congregation and as for our meetinges either in woods or any where els we haue the example of our sauiour Christ of his church and servantes in al ages for our warrant it is against our willes that we goe into woods or secret places as we are not ashamed of the gospel of Christ so our desire is to professe the same openly we are ready before men and Angels to shew and to justifie our meetings and our behauiour in them desiring earnestly that we may haue peace and queietnes to serue our God euen before al men that they may be witnesses of our vpright walking towards our God and al the world especially towards our Prince and countrie We know that meeting in woods in taues in mountaines etc. is a part of the crosse and basenes of the gospel wherat it is easy for the natural man to stumble but we are gladly partakers of this meane estate for the Lords sacred veritie and the question should not be so much where we meet as what we doe in our meetings whither our meetings and doings he warranted by the word or not and what inforced vs to meet in these places F. We wil speak of yr vnlawful assemblies afterwards but what caling haue yow to preach were yow neuer made minister according to the order of this land P. I might if I had bene willing haue bene made either Deacon or preist but I thanke the Lo. I euer disliked those popish orders and if I had taken them I would vtterly refuse them and not stand by them at any hand I haue taught publickly in the church of Scotland being thervnto desired earnestly and called by the order of that church charge I neuer had any and therfore I neuer bare office either there or in any other church F. Did not yow preach in these your secret meetings what warr it haue yow so to doe if yow haue no publick office in your church P. Whither I did or not I doe not tel yow for the present But this I say that if the same poore congregation desired to haue the vse of my smal giftes for the instructioÌ„ and consolatioÌ„ therof I would being thervnto prepared most willingly bestow my poore taleÌ„t to their mutual edification and mine F. And may yow teach in the church publickly hauing no publick office therin P. I may because I am a member therof and requested thervnto by the church and iudged to be indued in some measure with giftes meet for the handling of the Lordes sacred word The body of Christ that is euery particuler congregation of the church ought to haue the vse of al the giftes that are in any member therof and the member cannot deny vnto the body the vse of those graces wherwith it is furnished except it wil break the lawâ—â— and order of the body and become vnnatural vnto the same Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. F. Then euery one that wil may preach the word in your assemblie P. Not so for we hold it merely vnlawful yea tending to the Anabaptistical inversion of al good order in the church for any maÌ„ to intermedle with the Lords holy truth beyond the boundes of his giftes or pet for him that is indued with gifts to preach or teach in the church except he be desired and caled thervnto by the body F. But may any preach that hath not an office in the church so to doe P. Yea that he may and the word of God bindeth him to preach whosoever he be that intendeth to become a Pastor or Teacher in the church of Christ before he take his office vpon him and bindeth the church to take the trial of his giftes before they giue him his office least otherwise he should not be meet for it or at the least that handes should not be suddenly laid vpon him 1. Tim. 3 10. and 5 23. F. What office hath he al this while P. No other office then euery member of the body hath who are bound to haue their seueral operation in the body according to that measure of grace which they deriue from their head the Lo. Jesus by the power of his spirit working in them Rom.
called he Watson the pursuvaÌ„t and O. Cussins a part into a windowe where he made a warrant to send me to prison B. â—ow shal not touch one haire of my head without the wil of my heauenly father A. Nay I wil doe this to rectifie yow B. Consider what yow doe yow shal one day answer it A. Yow wil not sweare yow wil not enter bond for your appearance B. I wil put in band for my baile in the prison and for my true imprisonment A. Nay that wil not serue the turne M r. Doctor enter these thinges Then Cussins wrote that I refused to sweare and enter bond â— I wil send some to yow to conferre A. B That were more requisite before my imprisonment So the Arch B. delivered me to the pursuvant to â—arie me to the 〈…〉 where I as yer 〈…〉 neither knowing the cause of my imprisonment neither haue I as yet heard from him I was no sooner out of his howse but I remembred the place in controversie it is written 1. Cor. 6. 12. Al thinges are lawful for me but al thinges are not profitable I may doe al thinges but I wil not be brought vnder the power of any thing The lord knoweth to deliver the godâ— out of tâ—ntation and to reseâ—â—e the â—â—â—ust vnto the day of Judgement vnder punishment THe 27. of November 8. daies after I was commited by Cant. to the Gatehowse I was sent for by one of his servantes to make appearance before the high Commissioners at Lambeth whither he and my keepers man Nitholas caried me There I found a very great traine without but within a goodlie Synode of Bbs. Oeanes Civilians etc. beside such an apparance of wel-fedde silken Preistes as I suppose might wel haue bâ—seemed the â—aticaue where after to my no smal greif I had heard a scholemaister deny his maister Christ I was called CAnterburie with a grimme and an angrie countenance beholding me made discourse how I refused to sweare on a book etc. as fel out in our first meeting and demannded whither I were now better advised and would sweare I answered that I would not refuse to sweare vpon due occasion and circumstances C. Wil yow then now sweare B. I must first know to what C. So yow shal afterward B. I wil not sweare vnlesse I know before C. Wel I wil thus far satisfie your humour London begaÌ„ to interrupt but Cant cut him of and produced a paper of obiections against me which he delivered to one Beadle to read It conteyned much matter and many suggestions against me disorderly framed according to the malitious humour of mine accuser as that I denyed God to haue a true church in England and to proue this the 4. principal causes framed in way of argumeÌ„t as the worship of God with vs is jdolatrie ergo no true church They haue an Antichristian and jdolatrous ministerie ergo no true church ffurther he saith that the reverend father in God my lords grace of Cant. and al the Bps. of the land are Antichristes ffurther he saith that al the ministers in the land are theeues and mâ—â—therers and secret hypocrites and that al the preachers of the land are hirelinges That Mr. Wiggington and Cartwright straine at a gnat and swollow a camel â—â—urther he 〈…〉 aâ— writers as â—aâ—vin Beza etc. and saith that al catechismes are idolatrous and not to be vsed The reasons to these were vntrulie and disorderley set downe accordingly in the bil which I cannot rehearse L. How say yow Mr. Deane of Pauls here is for yow yow haue written a catechisme Cant. This fellow deaâ—es indifferently he makes vs al alike Thus far haue I satisfied yow now yow know what yow shal sweare vnto how say yow wil yow sweare now Lond. My Lordes grace doth not shew this favour to many Can. ffetch a book Bar. It is needles C. Why wil yow not sweare now B. An oath is a matter of great importance and requireth great consideration But I wil answer yow truly Much of the matter of this bil is true but the forme is false C. Goe to sirra answer directlie wil yow sweare reach him a book B. Ther is more cause to sweare mine accuser I wil not sweare C. Where is his keeper yow shalnot prattle here Away with him clap him vp close close let no man come at him I wil make him tel an other tale per I haue done with him Ther was an article against me in the bil for saying that I thought Elders were Bisshops and Philip. 1. 1. produced here by I plainly discouer mine accuser to be Thornelie of Norwich with whom I had communication at Ware as I rode to London and never talked with any other about this matter THe effect and so neere as my fraile memorie could cary away the very wordes of such interrogatories and answers as were demaÌ„ded of and made by me Henry Barrowe before certeyne Commissioners ther vnto especially appointed by her Maiestie namely the two L. cheef Justices the maister of the Rolles the L. cheef Baron and another Baron of the Exthequor I thinck Baron Gente togither with the Arch B. of Cant the B. of London the B. of Winchester certaine of their Chanâ—ellors and â—â—uil Doctors with their Registers and Scribes The 24. of March I being brought before the Arch B of Cant he made knowne vnto me that they were authorised by her Maiestie to examine me vpon my oath vpon certaine interrogatories and therfore called for a booke ther was brought a great bible in folio faire bound which the Arch B. refused and called for an other which was held to me by 〈…〉 Bar. To what ende Cant. To sweare B. I haue not learned to sweare by any creatures Cant. This is the word of God the Bible B. I began to open the book and meant in deed to haue asked him if the Apocrypha scripture and notes which were in it were the word of God but Cant. belike suspecting some such matter would not suffer me to look into it to whom then I answered that that booke was not the eternal Word of God that eternal God himselfe by whom onely I must sweare and not by any bookes or Bibles Cant. So yow shal sweare by God Bar. To what purpose then is this booke vrged I may sweare by nothing besides him nor by nothing with him Winch. How proue yow that B. It is so commanded in the book of the law Deut. 6. and 10. Chapt. so expounded by sundrie of the prophets by Christ himselfe and his Apostles Cant. Wel wil yow sweare that yow wil answer nothing but the truth and the whole truth to such Interr as we shal demaund of yow B. I haue learned to know the matter before I either sweare or answer Cant. Set downe that he wil not sweare L. E. Justice Yow shal onely sweare to answer the truth if any vnlawful thing be demaunded of yow yow need not answere B. My Lord euery truth requireth
Some in my chamber so they were dismissed Then I beseeched the Lâ—s to graunt a publicke conference that it might appearâ— to al men what we held and where we erred The Arch B. in great choller said we should haue no publicke conference we had published to much already and therfore he now committed vs close prisoners B. But contrary to law The L. Tr. said it might be vpon such occasions done by law and asked whither I had any learning Cant. and Lond. with one consent answered togither that I had no learning B. The Lord knoweth I am ignorant I haue no learning to boast of but this I know that yow are voide of al true learning and godlines L. Buckh. See the spirit of this man Then requested I conference againe and that in writing which was againe by Cant. very peremtorilie denyed He said that he had matter to cal me before him for an hereticke B. That shal yow neuer doe yow know my former answer to that matter wel erre I may but hereticke by the grace of God wil I neuer be L. Buckh. That is wel said The L. Tr then taking vp a paper of Somes abstract questions which lay among the Bs euidence against me read this That I held it vnlawful to enacte a law that the ministers shal liue by tithes or the people pay them and demaunded of me whither I held tithes vnlawful B. My Lo. they are abrogated and vnlawful L. Tr. Why thoâ—â— wouldest 〈…〉 haue the 〈…〉 of somewhat wherof should he 〈…〉 B. Ex pura eleemosyna of clere almes as Christ in his Testament hath ordeyned and as he and his Apostles L. Tr. But how if the people wil not giue B. Such are not the people of God L. Tr. But what shal the ministers doe in the meane time B. Not stand a minister to such neither take the goods of the prophane L. Tr. Where canst thow shew me now in the Scriptures that the ministers now ought not to liue vpon tithes B. I took the bible and turned to these two places Heb. 7 12. Gal. 6 6. in the one where tithes are abrogate in the other that an other provision is made for them Lond. began the â—auil at the wordes pure and cleere almes Cant. at the place in the Hebr. saying that the authors intent was to proue an abrogation of the preisthod B. Why the wordes of the text are these If the preisthod be changed then of necessitie must ther be a change of the law and yow cannot deny but that tithes were a part of that law alleging Num. 18. L. Tr. What wouldst thow haue him to haue al my goodes B. No my Lo. but I would haue yow to withhold none of your goodes from helping him neither rich nor pore are exemted from this duty ffurder I shewed that if the minister had thinges necessarie as food and rapment he ought to hold him self contented neither ought the church to giue him more Then had we some talke concerning the word Preist the L. Tr. said that the ministers now were not to be called preistes B. If they receiue tithes they are preistes Moreouer they be called preistes in the law Lond. Why what is the word presbyter I pray yow B. An elder Lond. What in age onely B. No Timothie was a yong man Lond. Presbyter is latine for a preist B. It is no latine word but deriued and signifieth the same which the greek word doth which is an Elder Lon. what makest thow a preist B. Him that doth offer sacrifices for so it is written euery where in the law As we were thus reasoning the L. Chanc. asked me if I knew not those two men pointing to Cant. and Lond. B. Yes my Lo. I haue cause to know them L. Chanc. But what is not this the Bp. of London B. I know him for no Bishop my Lo. L. Ch. What is he then B. His name is Elmar my Lo. The Lord pardon my fault that I laid him not open for a wolfe a bloody persecutor and Apostata But by this time the Wardens man plucked me vp L. Chanc. What is that man pointing to Cant. B. The Lord gaue me the spirit of boldnes so that I answered He is a monster a miserable compound I know not what to make him he is neither Ecclesiastical nor ciuil euen that second Beast spoken of in the Reuelation L. Treas Wher is that place shew it B. So I turned to the 13. Chap. and began at the 11. verse and read a litle Then I turned to 2. Thes 2. But the Beast arose for anger gnashing his teeth and said wis yow suffer him my Lords So I was pluckt vp by the Wardens man from my â—nees and caried away As I was â—e parting I desired the Lo. Treas that I might haue the libertie of the aire but had no answer and I prayed the Lord to blesse their honours So I was led forth by an other way then I came in that I might not see the brethren nor they me This is the effect so neere as my euil memorie could cary away the very wordes that were vsed to me and by me in that place The Lord pardon my vnworthines and vnsanctified hart and mouth which can bring no glory to the Lord or benefite to his church but rather reproch to the one and affliction to the other But the Lord knoweth how to deliuer the godly out of tentation and to reserue the vniust vntil the day of iudgement vnder punishment The L. Treas admonished me and told me that I took the Lords name often in vaine I haue forgotten vpon what occasion he spake it But I beseech the Lord that I may not forget this his good admonition but may set a more careful watch before my lippes for sure no doubt I am greatly guiltie that way and neuer vse his holy name with that reuerence I ought THe answers of John Grenewood at London pallace before the 2. L. chief Justices of Engl. the Mr. of the Rolles the L. chief Baron togither with the Arch B. of Cant. the B. of Lond. the B. of Winch. with others to certaine interrogatories as foloweth Q. WHat is your name A. John Grenewood Q. Lay yowr hand vpen the book yow must take an oath A. I wil sweare by the name of God if ther be any need but not by or vpon a book Q. We wil then examine yow without an oath Are yow a minister A. No I was one after your orders Q. Who disgraded yow A. I disgraded my self through Gods mercy by repentance then after many wordes they brought forth a paper conteyning certaine articles in manner of questions as foloweth Q. Is is lawful to vse the Lordes prayer publickly or privatly as a prayer or no A. It is a doctrine to direct al our prayers by but seing it conteyneth the doctrine of the holy Scripture no man can vse the same as a private or publick prayer because he hath not present need to aske al the
peticions therin conteyned at one time neither can comprehend them with feeling and faith Q. Is it lawful or no I wil heare no pratling A. It is not lawful for any thing I can see by the Scripture for ther is no commaundement to say the very wordes ouer and Christ and his Apostles prayed in other wordes according to their present necessitie Q. Is it lawful to vse any stinted prayers either publickly or privatly in prayer A. They are Apocrypha and may not be vsed in the publick assemblie the word and the graces of Gods spirit are onely to be vsed there Q. Answer directly is it lawful to vse them publickly or privatly A. Paul saith in Rom. 8. the spirit of God maketh request for vs and that we know not what to aske but the spirit helpeth our infirmities Q. Answer directly A. It is not lawful to vse stinted prayers invented by man either publickly or privatly for any thing I can see by the Scriptures Q. What say yow then to the book of common prayer is it superstitious popish and idolatrous yea or no A. I beseech yow that I may not be vrged by your law I haue thus long bene close prisoner and therfore desire yow to shew me wherfore and not now to entangle me by your law Q. Is it not yowr law now as wel as ours it is the Queenes law Yow are a good subiect A. I am obedient as a true subiect But I took it we had reasoned of your popish canons Q. Is not the common prayer booke established by the Queenes law L. Cheif Just Tel vs what yow thinke of the book of common prayer yow shal haue libertie to calback what yow wil againe A. If it were in free conference as it hath bene often desired by vs I would so doe Winch. Haue yow not vsed these wordes a yeare a goe that it was popish superstitious and idolatrous A. Yes I thincâ— I haue for it was taken out of the Popes portuis Q. Why would yow not answer so before A. Because I see yow goe about to bring me with in the compasse of the law I. Anderson What say yow now to 〈◊〉 A. That ther ar many errors in it and the forme therof is disagreeable to the Scriptures Arch B. Is it contrary to the Scriptures A. It must needs be contrary if it be disagreable Winch. Whither hold yow it idolatrous superstitious and popish A. I haue answered what I thinke of it I hold it ful of errors and the forme therof disagreable to the Scriptures Q. What say yow for mariage did not yow marie one Boman and his wife in the Fleet A. No neither is mariage a part of the ministers office Q. Who did vse prayer A. I thinke I did at that time vse prayer Q. Who ioyned their handes togither A. I know no such thing they did publickly acknowledge their consent before the assemblie Staâ—â—p I wil make them doe penance for it A. Ther be some had more need shew open repeÌ„tance then they B. They may make such mariages vnder a hedge and it hath bene along receiued order to be maried by the minister A. No ther were many faithful witnesses of their consentes and if it were not lawful we haue many examples of the ancient fathers who by your iudgement did amisse Q. What say yow to the church of England is it a true established church of God A. The whole common wealth is not a church I. Anders But doe yow know any true established church in the land A. If I did I would not accuse them vnto yow Q. But what say yow is not the whole land as it standeth now ordered a true established church A. No not as the assemblies are generally ordered if it please yow I wil shew yow the reasons L C. Just No yow shal haue ynough hereafter to shew the reasons it is not now to be stood vpon Q. What doe yow say to the church of England as it is now guided by Bbs. is it Antichristian A. Bp such Bs. and lawes as it is now guided it is not according to the Scriptures Winch. Thow hast Scriptures often in thy mouth is it then Antichristian A. Yea I hold it contrarie to Christes word Q. What say yow to the Sacramentes then are they true Sacramentes A. No they are neither rightly administred according to Christes institution neither haue promise of grace because yow keep not the covenant Q. Speak plainly are they true Sacramentes or no A. No if yow haue no true church yâ—w can haue no true Sacramentes Q. How say yow are we baptised A. Yea yow haue the outward signe which is the washing but no true Sacrament Q. How can that be A. Very wel then I thought to haue shewed reasons but I could not be suffred Q. Is it lawful Baptisme A. Yea. Q. Need we then to be baptised againe if we had that ministerie and gouerment yow speak of A. No. Q. Should we be baptised at al A. Yea or els if we contenme it we deny the profession of grace Q. Doe yow hold it lawful to baptise children A. Yea I am no Anabaptist I thanke God Q. How far differ yow A. So far as truth from errors Q. Yow haue a boy vnbaptised how old is he A. A yeare and a halfe Q. What is his name A. Abel Q. Who gaue him that name A. Myself being father Q. Why hath he not bene baptised A. Because that I haue bene in prison and cannot tel where to goe to a reformed church wher I might haue him baptised according to Gods ordinance Q. Wil yow goe to church to Sâ— Brides A. I know no such church Q. Wil yow goe to Pauls A. No. Q. Doe yow not hold a parish the church A. If al the people were faithful hauing Gods law and ordinances practised amongst them I doe Q. Then yow hold that the parish doe not make it a church A. No but the profession which the people make Q. Doe yow hold that the church ought to be gouerned by a Presbyterie A. Yea euery congregation of Christ ought to be gouerned by that Presbyterie which Christ hath appointed Q. What are those officers A. Pastor Teacher Elder etc. Q. And by no other A. No by no other then Christ hath appointed Q. May this people and presbyterie reforme such thinges as be amisse without the Prince A. They ought to practise Gods lawes and correct vice br the censure of the word Q. What if the Prince forbid them A. They must doe that which God commaundeth neuerthelesse Q. If the Prince doe offende whither may the presbyterie excommunicate the Prince or no A. The wole church may excommunicate any member of that congregation If the partie continue obstinate in open transgression Q. Whither may the Prince be excommunicate A. Ther is no exception of person and I doubt not but her maiestie would be ruled by the word for it is not the men but the word of God which bindeth and looseth