the true faith of Christ these Scriptures prove Deut. 18.18.19 Heb. 3 1-6 Mat. 6.24 Luk. 10.27 Rom. 6.16 Col. 2.8.19.20.21.22.23 2 Thes 1.8 2.3.12 Ioh. 3.36 Ier. 4.18 That your Churches coÌ„stitution is such I have proved in another treatise both by the Scriptures and your owne writings viz In a treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England Pag 30-35 4. Your Church forbiddeth Mariage Meats Of which the Apostle saith expressely it is a departing from the faith of Christ and therefore Fundamentall See 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Col. 2 8-23 And before Pag. 137. 140. 5. Your Church persisteth and persecuteth such as refuse to worship the beast and his image or to receyve his marke in the forhead or hand That this bringeth damnation and is Fundamentall against the coÌ„mandements of God and faith of Iesus see Rev. 14.9.10.11.12 17 1-6 18.2.3.4.5 2. Thes 2 3-12 Exod. 20 4.5 That it is your case appeareth by your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people Courts Canons Dispensations Licences Suspensions Excommunications c. practised mainteined and yeelded vnto by your Church Ministers and people framed also according to the image and fashion of the Romish Apostasy Which your selves confesse to be that Beast spoken of in the Revelation 6. Together with these remember also the particulars which I noted before concerning this point Pag. 22. 31. 60. 63. 73. 94. 103. 114. 122. 126. 129. 133. In which places you may mynd divers the like with further proof thereof And so for the present let this suffice till we see what your next Reply can bring against it The Scriptures alledged against you what man of conscience knowing your estate durst ever open his mouth to say they were abused or misapplyed When the Corinthians did but neglect to excommunicate one wicked man from among them the Apostle fitlie alledged this saying A little leaven leaveneth the whole lumpe 1 Cor. 5.6 How is it then abused when we applie it to your estate which swarmeth with so manie knowen wicked men and yet hath not the power of Christ to cast out any one from among you That I say nothing of the other infinite corruptions among you towched before Pag. 63. c. But in deed if these Scriptures be in anie respect not fitlie applyed it is in this that your corruptioÌ„s are so many and so abominable as you had need of far sharper corasives and other more deadfull sentences of Scripture to be applyed to your estate Such as these be If any man worship the Beast and his image and receive his marke in his forhead or on his hand the same shall drink of the vvine of the vvrath of God c. Rev. 14.9.10.11 They that receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved God vvill send them strong delusion to beleeve lyes that they may be damned c. 2 Thes 2.10 11.12 He that obeyeth not the Sonne shall not see life but the vvrath of God abideth on him Ioh. 3.36 To them that are contentious and disobey the truth and obey vnrighteousnes shal be indignation and vvrath tribulation and anguish vpon the soule of every man that doth evill Rom. 2.8.9 Those myne ennemyes saith Christ vvhich vvould not that I should reigne over them bring hither and slay them before me Luk. 19.27 I protest to every man that heareth the vvords of this book if any man shall adde vnto these things God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are writteÌ„ in this book And if any man shall diminish of the words of the book of this prophecy God shall take away his part out of the book of life c. Rev. 22.18.19 And marke these clauses well If any man vvorship If any man adde If any man take away The soule of every man I protest to every man c. None is excepted Let everie man therefore mynd your estate betymes to deliver his soule from the fierce wrath of God Your estate I say wherein there are so manie things added and so manie things taken away from the ordinance of Christ And those also marks of the Beast even a multitude of abominations derived from Antichrist that sonne of perdition And will you yet perswade men that this is but some taint of evill in a Christian Can you put no difference between the sinnes and infirmityes of Christians walking in the faith and the impietyes of Antichrist and doctrines of Divels making departure from it Know you not that even †Luk. 22.24 Rom. 7.23 Gal. 2.11.12.13.14 Iam. 3 2. 1 Ioh. 1.8.10 the Apostles themselves were subiect to the former and yet were wholy free from the latter Or are you growen so presumptuous against the holy Ghost as what it directlie teacheth to be * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3 doctrines of Divels fornications and abominations of the vvhore of Babylon Apostasy of Antichrist the man of sinne that you dare say is but as the taint of evill in a ChristiaÌ„ Belike you would have vs see this very Prophecy fulfilled in your self viz that you are led vvith the Spirit of error and have your conscience seared vvith an hote iron 1 Tim. 4.1.2 Otherwise how could you thus lewdly speak lyes in hypocrisy if you were guided by the spirit of truth and made any conscience of that you say But yet further to shew that you have gotten the very habit of falshood you shame not to call that a vvicked sclaunder which all the world may see is most true For proof whereof compare but your Replyes here with the Iesuites Notes vpon 1 Tim. 4. Thus they write Rhem. Teâ—â— on 1 Tim. 4. first in their marginall notes We see plainly by these vvords such abstinence onely to be disallovved as condemneth the creatures of God to be naught by nature and creation Then in their Annotations following they labour to prove that here the Apostle speaketh of the Manichees Encratites Marcionists c. Towching whom they say They thought that Mariage vvas of Sathan and coÌ„demned divers creatures as things by nature and creation polluted and abominable And then they adde Lo these vvere the Hereticks and their heresyes vvhich S. Paul here prophecyeth of that forbid mariage and meats as you have heard c. These are their owne words And thus they labour in vaine as D. Fulk in his aunswer tels them to post over the crime from themselves to the old Hereticks vvho vvith as good reason might post it of from one to another the Manichees to the Tacianists and the Tacianists to the Manichees c. Now let the Reader well mynd your Replyes in this place and compare them with this dealing of the Papists and then let him judge how you are sclandered with a matter of truth when I sayd you runne into the Papists tents and fight vvith their vveapons to shift of the evidence of this Scripture against you by posting it over from your selves to the Hereticks of old Martion Tatianus c. But
testimonies of theirs if the case were not as cleare as the Sunne at noone day But you say I depraue their meanings vtterly Why so I pray you Because they say not that all your Assemblies are such nor your vvhole Assemblies though they graunt very many such to be among you that is manie of your Church to be Atheists Papists Drunkards Whoremongers Thieves Murtherers Witches c. Alas M. Iacob it pittieth me to see your extreame follie and evill conscience Your follie that see not how both they and you giue the cause in this graunt and therby also testifie that I do not at all deprave their meanings Is it possible that your Church-assemblies should be full of such knowen vngodly persons and yet be Congregations of faithful men It never entred into my thought much lesse did I ever say it that your whole Assemblies are such I know and willingly accknowledg many of your Church not to be so for which I praise God Alwaies I except your publike worship and Idolatrie wherein all even the best among you are inwrapped This I said that your Assemblies are not congregations of faithful men but a confusion of all manner of people though never so vvicked And this you see do your owne men testifie Adde herevnto that both they and your self graunt your Assemblies herein ought to be reformed If they be already Congregations of faithfull men what reformation would you haue in this behalf But if their estate herein be such as they ought to be reformed why are you so shamles and foolish thus to speake as you do in all this matter Besides your folly you bewray an evill conscience in asmuch as you denie that thing the light whereof doth so shine in your conscience as even whiles you would shift it of you are constrained to acknowledg it whether you will or not Where you speak of your owne men that they deny not your Assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be seperated from it is to no purpose at all saue against your selfe For first though they speak it not in these very syllables yet the thing it self necessarily followeth vpon their words It is without question that the heathen Poets did themselues worship Idols yet notwithstanding sometimes they so spake in their writings as Paull doth * Act. 17.28.29 from thence conclude that not Idols but the true God onely is to be worshipped Had it now ben of waight for any of them to have alleadged against the Apostle that theit Poets did not deny Idols to be worshipped Yet you think it sufficient to withstand the truth with any such pretence Let this once spoken serve for aunswer to all your reproches wherewith you burden me many times for the collections which I deduce necessarily from your owne and other mens writings Secondly you are to know that it is not materiall against me whatsoever your men doe graunt or denie But against you it is who abide in the same Ministerie and of the same Church with them For that which you speak of the Church of the Iewes both auncient and in the time of Christ referring vs to another place hereafter in this book for proof of your comparison look you there also for aunswer therevnto And hitherto of the first point of your Article and profession differing from your practise and constitution For the second if you professe to preach the pure vvord of God as this Article requireth and yet againe both in profession and practise as here you acknowledg preach the impure and lying writings of Men such as be the Apocrypha books and your Homilies what is or can be more contrarie If your Article meane othervvise as you pretend it is full of deceit Neither shall any ever know what your profession is if your Articles doe thus crosse one another and your practise also agree with the worst But to cleare this point I aunswer furthermore 1. that it is a point of necessitie requisite that Gods vvord onely be taught For which see these Scriptures Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 Psal 119.113 Prov. 30.5.6 Esa 8.20 and 59.21 Ier. 23 16.28 Ioh. 5.39 Col. 3.16 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 and 2 Tim. 3.16.17 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19 Thus by your owne exposition of this Article the Assumption of your maine Argument falleth and your Churches remaine in false constitution which is the question betweene vs. See the third Exception follovving In the aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply 2. The Apocrypha books maintained in the Church which you say is both your profession and practise overthroweth the truth of Christian religion and bringeth in Iudaisme Popery Atheisme and what not 3. Even in the Church of Rome where these books also are received yet withal the pure word is so preached among them by Law as no doubt to some is sufficient co salvation For proof whereof see the Rhemes Testament in their note vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Yet this hindreth not but that their Church maintaineth false doctrine as in that place also may be seen and standeth in false constitution Neither therefore can this help you It resteth then that you show the pure worde only to be preached among you by Lavv and that also according to Christes ordinance which yet you doe not neither can doe And therefore it is your self that say nothing but that you both professe practise errors Now it is well the truth so shineth in your heart as you confesse your Churches faile from the pure vvord in sundry lesser points Yet I pray you reckon vp these points in particular that by the worde of God it may be seen whether they be lesser or greater then you would beare vs in hand Then tell vs in whose power it is in your Church to redresse them Also why they are not redressed seeing you know them and haue ‡ Rev. 2.16.17 3.3 Mat. 18.15.16.17.20 1 Cor. 5.4.5 Lev. 4.13 2 Cor. 10.4.5.6 rules given by Christ for such cases if your Churches be his Lastly why you for your part abide in knowen errors and keepe not the truth and commaundements of Christ As touching that you say though they be errors yet they are not fundamentall neither doe in their owne nature abolish from Christ the fit place of handling this point followeth in the second Exception and seventh Reason to which places I referre it Yet in the meane time because here we are treating of the Apocrypha books tell me whether in retaining them you retaine not such errors as your self account fundamentall c. For example the book of Tobit teacheth that †Tob. 12.12.15 Angels doe present and bring to memory our prayers before the Lord. Now this honour you know is peculiar to Christ who “ 1 Tim. 2.5 onely is the Mediator of Intercession That Apocrypha doctrine therefore is blasphemous and an error in your sence as I take it fundamentall Adde herevnto that * 2 Mach. 12.43.44.45 offring vp of a sinne offring to God for
as †The Sixe waterpots of the Iewishe purifyings Iohn 2.6 Therefore your Replies here are most vaine and false Lastlie in pag. 84. you will not confesse your contrarietie that is to say betweene this your Second Reason and certen wordes in your Sixt Reason But the greater is your sinne to doe euill and defende it too Here in this Reason pag. 82. you would haue this scripture Mat. 15. to be meant against such vaine worshippers that they become heereby no true Church Or els what doe you vrge it against vs But in your Sixt Reason following you say That the Iewes euen nowe when these words were applyed to them were the true worshippers of God Are not these contrarie I pray you then reconcile them Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the. 2. Reason VVHhatsoeuer you brought against the last Exception before is there answered Pag. 58. 59. 60. 61. Your woodden leg will not make your Reply go for currant neyther can your glassy eye see how to take 〈◊〉 my aunswer The vanitie of this comparison of yours applied to your estate I have already discovered And for Mr Cranmer Ridley c. I have aunswered before Pag. 40. 41. 59. 60. Divers of the differences there noted may likewise serve for * Yet if it be still with Geneva as you say the thing as of very yll note If it be not so note M. Iacob Geneva Besides that the constitution of that Church is in the way of Christ whereas yours is in the apostasy of Antichrist And so there is no comparing of your estate and theirs togeather although in some things it may be they walke corruptly and you in other with some show of piety Your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Iacob would aswell help the Iewes to have confuted the Prophet Esay and our Saviour Christ as it doth you For I pray you did the doctrine and Law of their Church appoint all Gods vvorship by mens precepts or yet the chiefest part of it Or had it ben of waight if they had thus aunswered Christ and his Prophets as you do here Shall I now say you play the ignorant Sophister yea and the false Sophister too And where you say next Your Preaching Sacraments Prayers c. are not appointed by mens precepts Is not this also a manifest vntruth Let your Offices of Ministery by vertue of which these are administred your Prelates silencing of you at their pleasure your Iniunctions Canons Articles Common prayer book according to which you are appointed and bound to administer all your holy things Let these I say speak indifferently between vs. Yea let your owne men speak and they will testify against you In the second Admonition to the Parliament they affirme †2 Admon pag. 6. That although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preachers may vvithout great dāger of the Lavves vtter all the truth comprised in the book of God It is so circunscribed and vvrapt vvithin the cōpasse of Statutes Penalties Iniunctions Articles Canons c. Also that these may not be offended against but vvith more daunger then to offend against the Bible Yea that the Bible must have no further scope then by these it is assigned Adde herevnto your Book of common prayer by which you are enioyned how to administer your Sacraments what to pray when to exhort c. Which likewise you may not break but with more danger then to offend against the Bible as in the Admonition aforesaid is testifyed Mynd also that your Church is enioined in the service of God publikly to read the Apocrypha books which have errors fables magik blasphemy c. and to leave altogeather vnread some parts of the Canonicall Scripture as being you say least edifying might best be spared as the book of Canticles and other parts of the Old Testament And in the New also part of the first Chapter of Mathevv and of the 3. of Luke and almost the whole Book of the Revelation Of which the Spirit of God saith expressely Blessed is he that readeth Rev. 1.3 and they that heare the vvords of this Prophecy c. For proof hereof see the Kalender and Rubrick in your book of Commō Prayer for the order of reading the Scripture in your Church throughout the yeare Speak now your self Mr. Iacob Is it not cleare that your Preaching Sacraments Prayer c. are appointed by mens precepts Vnles you will say Your Iniunctions Canons Articles Statutes Common prayer book c. be not the precepts of men As it may be you will not stick much at it if you can colour the matter with a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or like deceit So Christian a Disputer and conscionable you are Againe Is the Papists vvhole vvorship or the chiefest part of it otherwise by the precepts of men then yours is It may be you will take pepper in the nose that I aske you this For I perceive your little pacyence is already much moved You shall not therefore heare it of me because I would not put you out of all quyet I will but tell you what your owne men say of it at whose hands I doubt not but you will take it better Thus then they say speaking of your estate * 2 Admon pag. 7. He that could not abide straunge fyer in the old Lavv but burnt them that vsed it vvhat vvill he do to vs in the nevv Lavv that erect a nevv and straunge course or vvord to rule his Church by What did the Pope but so He did suffer Gods vvorde to have a course as far as it pleaseth him so that he might have the vvhole authority above it What now Mr Iacob How will you aunswer your owne men Or will you be so good to the Papists your grandsiers as a little to help them at a dead lift with your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So may they plead for their worship against this Scripture Mat. 15.9 opposed vnto them by the Martyrs as you do for yours Specially seing your Book of common prayer was taken out of their Portuis and your Book of consecrating Bishops and Priests out of their Pontificall So that if theirs then yours also must needs be according to the precepts of men yea of Antichrist that man of sinne Thus you have aunswer enough to this if you have eye enough to see it In your Second note because this Scripture was spoken to them that were of a visible Church c. you say Mat. 15.9 Therefore it affirmeth nothing against you This is a very straunge consequence Have not your selves alledged it against the Papists and would you admit of such an answer I shewed heretofore that the things verifyed sometymes of the members of a true Church may fitly be alledged against a false Church and yet not iustify them in such estate to be a true one See the Scriptures †Pag. 83. there quoted which by the Martyrs and others are often
later have seen before their eyes the mischief that followed vpō that declining which the other of former time neither did nor could Adde herevnto the great vnlikenes when they are compared together in their Offices Entrance Titles prerogatives Courts Canons Iurisdiction and other procedings And tell me why you left out Cyprian in your printed Book whō you named in your written copy for which cause I have now also noted his Name with the rest Is it so that you see alreadie how he is against you Assure your self Mr Iacob that so will the rest also be found lesse or more I alway except the Prelates of Rome whensoever due triall and comparison is made Which I neither need nor purpose here to stand vpon seing these things are purposely hādled and alreadie published by others well knowen and approved also of your selves as by Mr Beza against Saravia T. C. his 1. and 2. Reply The Demonstration c. I omit also that yours are become persecuters whereas the other were persecuted Therefore your sinne is far the greater And many other things I might alledge but it sufficeth vs and hereon we rest that your Prelacy and other Ministery Worship c. are none of Christs ordinances appointed in his word If you be other wise mynded prove it by the book of God Ioh. 17.17 Psa 119.105 Esa 8.20 You know that †it alone is the word of truth and ought to be vnto all the lāterne of our feet Hence forth therefore speak according to that word and seek not by the lesse sinnes of others to hide and nourish your owne far greater Otherwise remember and applie to your selves the judgement that is written Exod. 20.5 Ps 129.21 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 22 18.19 And note these things withall 1. First That here you speak of such as live and dy in your errors ignorantly Now what defence is this for your self Mr Iacob and for all the rest of your Church throughout the Land who do not onelie know these errors but have also taught professed and witnessed against them heretofore 2. Secondly that here you are glad to vse the same pretences as rusty weapons against the truth which were sometymes vsed by D. Whitgift and the Papists for defence of the Prelacy and found to be of no force at all 3. Thirdly that whatsoever you speak here in excuse of your conviction may be likewise alledged by the Papists and other Hereticks for defence of them selves viz that they are not all cōvicted sinne against their cōscience also that such and such points are not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one among them that many of them and not of the simplest hold their way to be the onely true and right course and almost all of them to be indifferent and lawfull very few and scarce any that see it to be meerly wicked and intolerable Yet these are the reasons and armour of proof you bring for defence of your Hierarchie and Church-estate And what should I speak of your manifold contradictions fearfull clauses notable vntruthes c. Your cōtradictions as when you graunt here Pag. 28. 61 This is your generall sinne and yet said before you held these to be Christs ordinances Your pretended excuse that you speak some things in your owne person some things in your Churches I have shewed before to be vayne and against your self Pag. 55. 56. 72. Another contradiction in that you professe the auncyent Bishops and yours have declyned viz from the truth and way of Christ or els tell vs in your next from what and yet plead as if your Church generally were eyther ignorant hereof or held your present governement to be the onely true and right kind or at least to be indifferent and lawfull c. For how I pray you can these stand together If you say your self know thus much but as for any others that know it they are very few and searse to be found these I take it are your owne words this is but a vaine conceit of your self and such as is still accompanied with folly There are no doubt a thousand to you who are but one that know these things aswell or better a great deale Yea I know manie of your Church my self who have taught and writtē far more soundly and godly of them then ever Mr Iacob did And if these had all held their peace yet your Book of common prayer as grosse as it is knoweth thus much ‡ In the Commination that in the Primitive Church there was a godly disclpline which it saith is much to be wished that it might be restored agayne The particular there mentioned I stand not vpon I note it onelie for this that you may see even by that book received among you generally how your Church neither is so ignorant of the estate of things in former tymes as you pretend neither thinketh your present government to be the onelie true kind c. Not to speak of your so manie and so publik suites to the Parliament to have it removed as being vnlawfull and Antichristian Neither of the many books printed with Priviledge avowching as much A third contradiction till you cleare it better note in this also that you acknowledge they in K. Edw. tyme were godly learned and yet insinuate withall as if they were litle better then tyme-servers Your fearfull clauses importing partlie a yeelding of the cause partly a seeking of starting holes and excuses for your sinne As when you say 1. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversity of sinnes 2. All sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ 3. This sinne of outward Church-orders is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience 4. There are sinnes wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved 5. No greater is now in our Bishops presently especially towching our Churches and Ministers too generally 6. If you say we are all convicted now it is false 7. The godly learned Protestants in King Edwards tyme were not vtterly ignorant of this poynt of reformation 8. The Iewes were not generally plainely convicted 9. Our Assemblyes are not all godles and profane Our sinne destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole Assemblyes c. As if your self thought it did in some Your notable vntruths also are many as when you alledge Mr Beza vpō Act. 15.20 as if he spake of such Iewes as did personally hate and persecute Christ where as he speaketh expressely of such as beleved in Christ but were withall zealous of the Law being not yet perswaded of the abolishment thereof Agayne when from him you would teach that they which did personally hate and persecute Christ yet were the true Church vntill the Temple and City were destroyed yea and saved though they repented it not Which is contrarie to these and many the like Scriptures Act. 2.40.47 and 13.45.46.50.51 and 19.8.9 1. Thes
AN ANSWER TO MAISTER H. IACOB HIS DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministery of England By Francis Iohnson an exile of IESVS CHRIST Though myne Adversary write a Book against me would I not beare it vpon my shoulder would I not bynde it for crovvnes vnto me Iob. 31.35.36 Printed in the Yeare of our Lord. 1600. The Title and inscription of Mr Iacobs book because there is often relation vnto it hereafter both in the Preface and in the Book it selff therefore I thought good here to insert it at first Thus it was word for word as followeth A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND Ministery of England Written in two Treatises against the Reasons and obiections of Mr Francis Iohnson and others of the separation commonly called Brownists Published especially for the benefit of those in these parts of the lovv Countries MIDDELBVRGH By Richard Schilders Printer to the States of Zealand 1599. To the Christian Reader grace and peace from our Lord Iesus Christ THere came out of late good Reader two books from one Mayster Henry Iacob a Priest of the Orders of the Prelates The first was agaynst his Lord Mr D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester concerning Christs suffrings and descending into Hell The latter agaynst me by name and others like mynded tovvching the Church and Ministery of England Now although the Prelates could not well be offended at him for publishing the former agaynst the doctrine of theyr Church senig * In K. Edvv tyme about 50. Yeares synce long before him Mr Carlill a learned man had both publikly disputed in Cambridge and printed a book agaynst that error of Christs descension and that with great approbation of the most godly and learned at that tyme Yet belike fearing the worst and knowing the hatred of the Prelates how deadly it is he did presently after send forth his other book in defence of the Churches and Ministery of England So as whatsoever displeasure his Lords the Prelates conceyved agaynst him for the former there was now some hope that they might sooner be appeased vpon view of the latter Or howsoever it should fall out yet what like lyer way could he take to make all sure on his side then by the first book to get the forward Preachers and professors to take his part agaynst the Prelates and by the other to have both them and the Prelates themselves to stand with him agaynst vs Yet I heare some of his owne coat give out that he hath dealt very simply in publishing so weak and raw a Treatise against vs. And true it is in deed that his Treatise is such In the publishing whereof no wisedome hath he shewed at all vnles it be in this that he hath thus let all the world see that against the errors of the Church of England there is plenty of Scripture to be had and vrged but not a jote to be found for defence of theyr VVorship Ministery constitution c. For if you mynd it †Yet I deny not but he hath scattered some errors also in that book in his book against Bilson about the question of Christs suffrings and descending into Hell you shall see proof after proof readily brought from the word of God And on the contrary in his book against vs not onely no such proof but in stead thereof eyther his owne assertions and comparisons obtruded vnto vs as oracles or the Names of Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley and other dead men opposed to the word of the living God or putting over his cause to the State to be defended himself being not able to speak one poore word in defence thereof c. Such is his latter book and such are the grounds of it A very great and straunge difference between two books set out by one and the same man the one straight after the other and both of them in matter of Religion If I had first published these Replyes and Aunswers which passed between vs no doubt but many would have had a prejudice thereof and all would have thought I had done it purposely to shew the weaknes of that cause and falsehood of that Ministery c. But now when he a member of that Church yea a Minister of it even a Priest of the Prelates creation hath first published them albeit the same thing be done yet it is both without all prejudice and pretended by him for defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Be it that he hath not done it so well as many would have it yet it is the best he could And what if he thought by this meanes eyther to stirre vp some others more able herevnto or at least to shew his owne good will Doubtles where there is want of ability a mans good will is to be accepted And why should any then misinterpret so good a meaning If any of the Prelates or others of that Church like it not they may learne by his example iff not to lay theyr hand on theyr mouth yet to try if they can plead the cause any better For worse I suppose they would be ashamed to do it I had thought in this case I should never have seen any more absurd writing then Mr Giffards and Bredvvels But now to Mr Iacob may they well give place And iff any can be found of all the Priests in England more sencelesse then these let such for theyr worthynes as standerd bearers be Prelates of theyr chiefest Seas And as for Mr Iacob seing he hath done his best let all men be content to beare with his simplicity who otherwise might well note his folly for vndertaking ius how the defence of that which yet in deed he leaveth altogether naked and helples By the title of his book it seemeth he thought to carry away the simple Reader who eyther could not or would not mynd what should follow after it In the book it self he thinketh his plea to be very good if he can say for the Ministery and other abominations of theyr Church They are errors but not fundamentall sinnes against the Second commandement but not vtterly abolishing from Christ c. And this is the summe of his whole book A plea which he counteth vnaunswerable Yet in deed no other but such as openeth a wide doore for all maner errors and sinnes to be receyved and nourished amonge them which themselves shall presume not to be fundamentall c. So that now theyr Church is ready when they please to entertayne agayne the offices of Abbats Monks Fryers Nonnes Cardinals c. the doctrines and practise of Auricular confession Prayer in an vnknovven toungue Prayer for the dead Seven Sacraments Holy vvater holy ashes holy palmes holy bread Creame spittle oyle and salt in Baptisme Consubstantiation Deniall of the cup to the lay people Denyall off vvarres and Magistracy in Christians Denyall of Mariage in Ministers c. For these and many mo errors of the Papists Lutherans Anabaptists it is like they hold not to be fundamentall And therefore
although theyr Church receyve them yet is Mr Iacobs defence as sound for them then as it is now Neyther may any for these or the like separate from theyr Church worship or Ministery if you will beleev him Yet note that for proof of this assertion you must let them take day For as yet they can shew you none And what now if any of the errors which the Church of England at this day retayneth be fundamentall What will Mr Iacob say to that Then agayne he is at a flat Non plus and all his book is not worth a rush save that it yeelds vs the cause and graunts theyr Church to be a false Church aÌ„d theyr people to be no true ChristiaÌ„s in that estate For this therefore see what is sayd in the Treatise hereafter following Pag. 22. 114. 147. 148. What also if D. Bilson should aunswer Mr Iacob for that poynt of Christs descension into Hell as he aunswereth vs for theyr Church corruptions that though it be an error yet it is not fundamentall yea and that they in K. Edvvards dayes held it Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Would Mr Iacob take this of his word or think it a sufficient warant for the holding thereoff or bynd others to be likewise mynded c. But to let this passe let Mr Iacob mynd well the estate and practise of theyr Church but in such particulars as I have named hereafter Pag. 63. 64. 65. and then let him aunswer as before God Are they lawfull or vnlawfull Are they of Christ or Antichrist Of God or the Divell Lead they to heaven or hell May they be found in the Word and Churches of God or in the Popes Churches Canons Portuis Pontificall May they any maner way be approved and communicated withall or are they not wholy and with detestation to be refused and abhorred For aunswer hereof I will wayte till Mr Iacob reply agayne And in the meane tyme I will now aunswer what he and his Prefacemaker have already published Where first I desier the Reader in both of them and in Bridges Bancroft Bilson Hooker Sutcliff and all such writers of that Church to mynd these three things 1. That all theyr reasoning and perswasions are no other but such as may lead men eyther backe agayne to Popery or the ready way to Atheisme or at least to receyve whatsoever religion the Prince pleaseth so themselues account it not to be fundamentall Thus are they all blynd guydes Thus do they all teach to continew in sinne Thus do they shut vp the kingdome of heaven before men neyther entring in themselues nor suffring them that would enter to come in 2. That they do even set themselues to carpe at the truth it self and at the mayntenance and practise thereoff To which end they vse they care not what objections and abuse they care not whom 3. That they never do so much as offer to bring proof from the Scripture for theyr estate and practise See the particulars afterward rehearsed Pag. 63. 64. 65. And mynd iff there be any of them all that in any book they have written have brought warrant for them from the word of God Onely D. VVhitgift made an assay for some of them but he was so taken downe by Mr Cartvvright as he was glad to lay downe the bucklers which synce that tyme neyther himselff nor any other durst take vp And now Sutcliffe himselff can tell them iff Mr Cartwright have the better hand of D. Whitgift that then the Church of England is no true Church of Christ and that there is iust cause to departe and separate from it Sut. Engl. b. Pag. 228. These things noted I do now come to Mr Iacobs book and first to the Preface which his fellow and frend at a need hath prefixed before it Where I will for more evidence of the truth and stopping of theyr mouths first set downe his owne words as I do also Mr Iacobs afterward in the book it self and then make aunswer vnto them He that made or wrote the Preface subscribeth his Name thus D. B. And thus he beginneth it The Publisher to the Christian Reader Section 1. ABout Three Yeeres since Maister Iacob having some speach vvith certen of the separation before mentioned concerning their peremptory vtter separation from the Churches of England vvas requested by them briefly to sett dovvn in vvriting his Reason for defence of the said Churches And they vvould either yeild vnto his proofes or procure an ansvver vnto the same VVherevppon the Argument follovving this Preface vvas set dovvne in vvriting by maister Iacob vvhich the said parties did send to Maister Fr. Iohnson being then prisoner in the Clinke in Southvvark vvho made an ansvver vnto the same conteyning 3. Exceptions and 9. Reasons in denyall of the Assumption vvherevnto Maister Iacob Replyed Aftervvard Maister Iohnson defended his sayd Exceptions and Reasons And finally Maister Iacob Replyed againe As by the particulars themselves appeareth The Aunswer These two letters Geuev Scot. Allobrog Disc Pag. 7. D. B. I fynd to be set for Doctor Bancroft now Prelate of London in a * shameles book of his not long synce sparsed abroad In which respect as also considering many as godles things here agayne published albeit some might think it were therefore to be ascriâ—ed vnto him yet for other causes partly appearing in the book partly knowen of the man I thinck this Preface was not made by him but rather by another †Daniel Buck D. B. a Scrivener of London a man that hath turned his coat and forsaken the truth as often as †Doct. Pernâ— D. P. the old turne coat did if not also oftner He it was that by letters desired of me to aunswer Mr Iacobs Argument as here is said being himself at that tyme separated from the false worship and Ministery of England to which vomit he is now againe returned wallowing in that â—â—yer from which then he was washed Then also he could say himself thought Mr. Iacobs Argument was frivolous and of no waight and that his desier with some others was to have it answered for the stopping of Mr Iacobs mouth who thought it vnaunswerable Herevpon I made answer vnto it and as there was occasion by Mr Iacobs doubled Replyes have aunswered agayne and agayne I have also for sundry causes consulted with others therein and namely with Mr Henry Ainsvvorth Teacher of our Church my work-fellow to the kingdome of God approved in Christ At London 1593. and Mr Daniel Studley another off our Elders who hath given vp his life for the Name of our Lord Iesus Christ being first * adâ—udged to death afterward exiled c. And now vnto thee good Christian Reader I exhibit the whole Treatise conteyning beside that which was published before my aunswer also to Mr Iacobs second and last Reply that thou mayest try the matter by the word off God and as it agreeth therewith so to receyve it and no
he vvould proue the Churches of England to be the true Churches of God VVhatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian in state of saluation That is sufficienâ— to make a companie so gathered together to be a true Church But the whole doctrine as it is publikly ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. professed and practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation ††See for the addition of these vvords in Pag. 6. and our publique Assemblies are therein gathered together Therefore it is sufficieÌ„t to make the publique Assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson THe aunswer of this ArgumeÌ„t followeth But first I wil proposid another prouing by better reason that the Church-assemblies of England are in their constitution so far from being true Churches of God as they stand in AntichristiaÌ„ estate and are therfore subiect to wrath The ARGVMENT is this Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered togeather likewise to stand though they professe withall in their constitution many doctrines of truth otherwise profitable to saluation But the Hierarchie Leiturgie and confusion ecclesiasticall as they are publikly ‡ Their Ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ Courts Iniunctions practise canon Lavve Books of articles of coÌ„mon prayer of ordering Priestes and consecrating Archbishops c. professed practised by law in England are sufficient to make a †As for exaÌ„ple the Prelates the Priessts c. particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath And the Church-assemblies in England are in ‡ their estate companies so gathered together Therefore are these also sufficient to make the Church-assemblies of England likewise to stand though they professe vvithall in their constitution many doctrines of truth othervvise profitable to saluation This Argument I propound as being more sound then M. Iacobs both for matter and maner Let others iudge Now I come to examine his Where first it is needfull so to set it downe as it was heretofore propounded by himself And that was thus as followeth Chap. 3. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it vvas first propounded and aunswered VVHatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true ChristiaÌ„ in state of saluatioÌ„ That is sufficient to make a company so gathered togeather to be a true Church But the whole doctrine ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Therefore it is sufficient to make the publique assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer TO omit the Proposition vntill it better appeare by the defence of the Assumption how to take and vnderstand it we wil for the present only shew the weakenes of the AssumptioÌ„ And this also the rather because they seeme wholy to depend vpon it H. Iacob his Reply THe AuÌ„svverer omitteth the PropositioÌ„ for in deed it is most certain But he denieth the Assumption vvhich yet is as certaine also That the doctrine in our booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian Fr. Iohnson his 2. Aunsvver IN the former aunswer I omitted the PropositioÌ„ not because of the certeinty of it as the Replier dreameth but till we might see by his defence of the Assumption how to take it as then I noted Now therefore hauing seen in his reply the * This I vvrot vvhen I had seen Mr. Iacobs first Repâ—e herafter follovving vvhich novv he hath secoÌ„ded vvith another of like sort VVhether it be not so as here I say let the indifferent Reader vpon tryall iudge vnlearned and vnconscionable pretences by which he would seem to defend the Assumption wheÌ„ in deed he doth nothing else but cast a mist before the eyes of the simple I giue him to vnderstand that the whole Argument is lame and faulty in euery part The Proposition is not absolutely true as now by his defence of the Assumption it appeareth he vnderstandeth it The Assumption is not only false as was proued in the * My first auÌ„svver vvas the 3. ExceptioÌ„s and 9. Reasons vvhich here do follovv former auÌ„swer but also lacketh a foot whereon it should goe if it were perfect and entire For whereas in the Proposition mention is made not only of the making of a true Christian but also of a companie so gathered togeather he should in the AssumptioÌ„ if he would haue had it sound and perfect not only haue assumed that the doctrine c. is sufficient to make a true Christian but haue added also that their assemblies be companies so gathered together Which being not done both the Assumption waÌ„teth one of the feet and the Conclusion inferreth more then was in the premisses and so the whole Syllogisme is faultie and disfigured Thus might we without any further aunswer returne this ArgumeÌ„t to the first framers of it to be better fashioned Yet in hope to doe them good by the blessing of God we will more particularly lay open the weakenes of this Replie And first where he saith the Proposition is most certain and yet in his defence of the Assumption declareth that he so taketh it as whatsoeuer amongst them be ioyntly togeather held and ioyned with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures we aunswer that in this sence the Proposition neither is nor can be absolutly true For who knoweth not that ‡ Gal. 5.2.4 such things may be ioined with Christ as do abolish from him And again †2 cor 6.14.15.16.17 that Christ Antichrist cannot accord together Either therefore the Proposition is not general but admitteth limitatioÌ„ and theÌ„ is not the ArgumeÌ„t good Or if it be generall without any limitation so as whatsoeuer be added to or commingled with that which otherwise might make a true ChristiaÌ„ or Church yet it hindereth nothing at all then is it not alway true as may appeare by the former exceptions and many mo that might be alledged Next touching the Assumption besides that it is same it is also vntrue as hath ben proued Some balme in deed this man bringeth to cure it but it hath no other effect saue only to manifest so much the more that the soare of their Assemblies cannot be healed In our former aunswer we first tooke 3. Exceptions against theÌ„ comparing together their profession and practise then we alleadged 9. ReasoÌ„s directly concluding the falshood of the Assumption H. Iacob his 2. Reply Before I examine this your aunswer I will desire you and all others to note that all your Ecceptions and Reasons with your defence of them hereafter following doe consist of these
and vndersong M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. as if for our faith and worship of God we should turne from the liuing God to dead men Esa 8.20 from the law and testimony of the Lord to the opinions and aberrations of Man I might besides wish the Reader to mind the vnsauerie salt of your raising and reprochfull speaches scattered throughout your book but I omit it And now I come to the particular examination of this Replie of yours You say He that hath but half an eye may see the meaning of the vvordes of your Proposition c. Well Mr. Iacob then your self hauing two eyes might easily see I omitted the Proposition not for the darknes or doubtfulnes of the words but because it yet appeared not how your self vnderstood them whether so as you make the Proposition general admitting no exception or particular and to be restrained And why do you not yet tel vs how you take it Are you afraid to say either the one or the other either that it is general or that it is particular If you make it general admitting no limitation then is your Proposition false Page 5. as I showed in my last aunswer which you cannot gainesay If it be particular then is your Syllogisme a meer Sophisme your Argument of no moment neither in any Mood or Figure How think you Mr. Iacob Is not your reason very sound and Clerklike But you perhaps with two eyes see not so much as others may with half an eye Touching the Assumption to follow your words in order I showed that wheras in the Proposition you spake of a companie so gathered togeather you should for your purpose haue assumed that your Assemblies be companies so gathered And tel me ought you not so to haue don seeing you make but one Syllogisme If you ought is it vvrangling to shew what is wanting in your Reason If you ought not why haue you now made an addition to your Assumption which was not before Is it because I should not stumble at a straw or is it not because the Argument is vnsound without it though you note the contrarie in the margent If it be sound without this why doe you not so proue it If it be not why doe you not confesse it Nay why are you both so conceited in your self and so desirous to blind your Reader as when the fault is shewed you yet you wil not onely not accknowledg it but lay the blame vpon him that would draw you to see it This in deed is not to stumble at a straw but wilfully to fall downe when you might be holpen vp Now although you be vnworthy of any further help Yet because I I would haue you see it I wil once againe labour to make it plaine vnto you if I can beat it into your head You make but one Syllogisme and in it you conclude your publique Assemblies to be true Churches Now you know I suppose that alwaies in a good Argument whatsoeuer is in the Conclusion must needes be in one of the premisses before But in yours it is not so Your conclusion is of your publique assemblies and yet you neuer spake of them before in either of the premisses Can you by this perceive how extremely faulty and vnsound your Argument is But you think to help your self by saying you meant so much Sure you are neare driuen M. Iacob For what wrangler could not so help out any matter Yet here you stay not Euen your words you say imply as much And do they indeed Tell me then whether here you include and defend all the publique Assemblies of the Land as they now stand or but some of them whether those that haue dumbe Ministers aswell as those that haue Preachers whether those that haue non residents aswell as those that haue their Incumbents whether the Cathedral Churches aswell as the Parishes For all these are by Law Churches among you the Cathedrall the Parishionall those that haue non residents or humbe dogs with fower Sermons a yeare Pluralities c. Then tell me whether all these Assemblies of yours be companies by Lavv gathered together in that profession practise wherof you speak Besides where the words in your Proposition were of companies so gathered together c. and you in your addition to the Assumption haue in steed thereof companies gathered together in the doctrines c. why are you so vnconstant and fearefull in your words why do you not keep the same termes why made you not the addition as was showed you it ought to haue ben Did you think that then I would and might the more call vpon you for proof thereof That belike was the matter For in deed I do and must needs so much the more cal for it And how will you ever prove it that your Assemblies are companies so gathered together that is by a free voluntary profession of the truths among you * Act. 2.41 11.24 Psal 110.3 Esa 44.5 2 Cor. 6.17.18 and 9.13 Zach. 8.21 23. 1 Thes 1.6 such as is in true CHRIstians and in the manner of gathering euery true Church when as you are by Lavv compelled so to professe or rather to submit to that profession Yea and by compulsion of Lavv are gathered not only in and vnto those truths but in and to Antichristian errors which cannot stand therewithall I pray you M. Iacob iustifie by the Scriptures such profession to be that which is in true Christians and such gathering to be that which is in true Churches Next where you charge me with strange dealing for saying your vvriting declared that you so took the Proposition as vvhatsoeuer ‡ These vvords among them Mr. Iacob leaueth out among you be iointly together held ioyned vvith that vvhich othervvise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notvvithstanding you are so to be reputed as if there vvere no such additions or commixtures First speak plainely whether you doe so take your Proposition or not Whatsoeuer you aunswer it will be against your self and manifest the weaknes of your Argument as I haue declared a litle before Secondly why wrote you not all my words but left out som of them was it because you thought that would haue cleared me of strange dealing and left it vpoÌ„ your own head Thirdly where you say in all your vvriting you haue no such vvord no syllable no letter sounding to that sence Lift vp your eares Mr Iacob and tel me how these wordes of yours do sound in your hearing †M Iacobs 1. Reply to the 1. Reason follovving Christ and some outward ceremonies and orders of Antichrist are joined together among vs vvhich things yet vve think to be Christs ovvne Againe The ‡ His 1. Reply to the 4. Reason fâ—llovving outvvard manner of calling to the Ministery and some outvvard ceremonies vsed by Mahomet and the Pope doe not destroy faith true Christianity And yet more plainely when you say *
His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and
doctrine Now if you cannot prooue your Assemblies to be such you may see your own witnesses euen your owne doctrine and book giue verdict against you If you can prooue them to be such where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in this your owne description of a visible Church H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 1. Excep THis your first Exception is the 19. Article of this very book vvhich vvee alleadge vvherein a visible Church is described to be a Congregation where the pure word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all those things that of necessitie are requisite Novv this description you reiect not but our practise say you is contrary and therefore vve haue no true visible Churches nor Christians I ansvver vvherein is it contrarie in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite doth not all this Christian vvorld see and confesse that our publique practise is agreeable to our profession in that book Nay say you but proue you your assemblies to be such and if you can proue them where and what are your proofs if you doe not you are confuted A vvorthy confutation sure and very Clerklike As if my Tenaunt should denie me rent for my house and land yea and goe to Lavv vvith me for the fee simple vvhich he hath holden in ferme of me these 40. yeares and I haue hetherto quietly enioyed from my Auncestors time out of minde Novv he suing me at lavv for that vvhich I thus possesse saith proue your right to this land vvhich you haue if you can vvhat and vvhere be your proofes let me see them Or els I your Tenaunt vvill haue it This vvere goodly dealing vvere it not and very lavvfull EueÌ„ so doe you asking proofes of vs for that vvhich vve possesse haue possessed before you made any question about it nay you your selues held part of this possession of vs and vvith vs till yesterday vvhen you began first to lay claime in this sorte to the vvhole Novv your reason is let vs prooue it to be ours where be our proofs Or els you will not accknowledg vs any longer see I pray you your owne equity If this suffice not to make you desist I leaue it to the Iudges to giue sentence Secondly note further Our Article saith A Church is where the word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all things that of necessitie are requisite Where vveâ— plainly insinuate that many errours may be added and truthes wanting in a visible Church but nothing which is absolutely necessarie Now what doth our practize in Preaching or Sacraments want that is absolutely necessarie without which there cannot be any true preaching or Sacraments at all shevv it vs because vve see it not our selues I assure you vntil then your first reason hath no reason in it Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply vpon the 1. Excep HOw fit or vnfit the description is I neither did nor doe examine Onely because it is your owne profession and your practise is coÌ„trary vnto it I did from hence take the first Exception requiring of you to proue your Assemblies to be such or els to know that your owne doctrine is a witnes against your selues Now in your Reply haue you according to the particulers of that description iustified your Church assemblies Nothing lesse Let this therefore be first obserued But what then haue you done First pretending as if you repeated our exception and your owne description you leaue out diuers particulers of speciall moment there expressed As first where the visible Church is described to be a congregation of faithfull men you leaue out these wordes of faithfull men belike knowing that your Congregations which are holds of all foule spirits and cages of euery vncleane and hatefull bird Reuel 18.2 cannot therefore iustly be accounted congregations of faithfull men Secondly where the description speaketh of the Sacraments to be duely ministred you leaue out this word duely because it crosseth your womens Baptisme priuate Communion receiuing of the most prophane and their seed among you c. Lastly where in the description it is required both for preaching the pure word and due administration of the Sacraments that they be don according to Christes ordinance you leaue out these words according to Christes ordinance belike because this clause quite overthroweth both your Antichristian Prelacy from whih al the inferior Ministers among you receiue power and authority to preach and minister the SacrameÌ„ts and your Preisthood and Deaconry wherein you all administer and your stinted imposed prayers exhortations crosses in the forehead questions to Infantes vse of the same wordes in English in ministring the Lords Supper which the Papists vsed and still vse in Latine not retaining the words of Christes institution and such like Thus hauing left out such particulers as were of speciall moment against you yet you demaund vvherein your paactize is contrary to your profession and description of a visible Church in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite We aunswer in all the particulers of that description aforesayd For first your Church-assemblies are not congregations of faithfull men but a confusion of all manner of people though neuer so wicked and prophane The ‡ D. VVâ—iâ—g booke pag 176. and 178 Prelates and Formalists affirm that your Church is full of Atheistes Papistes Idolaters Drunkards Whoremongers and such like The * Sermon on Rom. 12 pag. 65. and 66. Demonstration in the preface forward Preachers likewise that in your Church are svvarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erronious and heretical Sectaries Witches Charmers Sorcerers Murtherers Theeues Adulterers Lyars c. Finally that a man may be any thing among you sauing a sound Christian These things being so as both your estate and writings beare witnes iudge your selues whether your Assemblies can be accounted Congregations of faithfull men or no which is the first point of the description aforesaid Secondly in the same description is required That the pure vvord of God be preached according to Christes ordinance But with you are allowed besides the word of God the Apocrypha books and in steed of preching the word the reading of Homilies as may appeare in that ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1502. book of Articles alledged by your self Yet who knoweth not that in those bookes are diuers vntruths errors contradictions blasphemies and such like So farre are they from being the pure word of God or agreeing therewith Moreouer when and where the word is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ And the Ministers that preach it do in your constitution alway stand subiect to be silenced suspended excommunicated and degraded by the Prelates and Ordinaries to whom when you are made Priests you promise and when you enter vpon a benefice you sweare Canonicall obedience Neither are you suffered any further to preach the word and truth of God then agreeth
with the Articles IniuÌ„etioÌ„s Aduerticements and Caueates in that behalf prouided If any preach the word of God any further they are subiect to be sileÌ„ced banished and put to death That these things accord with the ordinaÌ„ce of Christ or with your owne description of a visible Church I suppose your self will not for shame affirme it Lastly in your description it is required That the Sacramentes be duely ministred according to the ordinance of Christ in all things that of necessity are requisite to the same Now by the ordinance of Christ in the administration of the Sacraments there are necessarily required 1. A lawfull Minister 2. A lawfull people 3. A lawfull administratioÌ„ according to the Testament of Christ In al which your practise is contrary to the ordinance of Christ and your owne description aforesayd Your Ministers all of them are either Prelates Priestes or Deacons which among you is a step to the Priesthood none of which Christ hath ordeyned in his Testament for the work of his Ministerie Your people are not separated from the world See Iohn 15.19 17.14 1â— but stand in confusion with it and in subiection to the Antichristian Prelates and Prelacie and therefore cannot be deemed a true Church of God and the people of Christ vnto whome in such estate the SacrameÌ„ts which are seales of the couenant of grace doe apperteine and may be administred 1 Iob. 4 â— 5 Act 2 40. and 19 9. Rev. 18.4 and 14.9 Finally your administration is according to the inventions and precepts of men with sâ—inted prayers exhortations Epistles and Gospels and besides these in Baptisme crossing on the forehead and questions to the infant in the Lords supper translating and vsing out of the Masse book other words theÌ„ the words of Christes institution and such like as may be seen at large in your book of common prayer which is picked and culled out of the Masse book full of abominations as * Admonition to the Parlament your selues haue confessed heretofore These things we haue ben forced thus to mention at large both because you twise demaund as if you knew not your selves wherein your practise is contrarie to that description aforesaid and because you blush not to affirme that all the ChristiaÌ„ world seeth and confesseth your practise to be agreable to your profession in that book Whereas the contrarie is most true Touching which what your selues haue heretofore written to the contrarie See in the Admonitions to the Parliament Replies of T. C. against D. Whitgist Demonstration of Discipline c. And what the reformed Churches professe to the contrarie see in the French Belgicke and Heluetian Churches in the Harmonie of confessions SeÌ„ct 10.11 Thus also appeareth what iust cause we had to put you to proue your assemblies to be such as your selues describe visible Churches to bee Which seeing you haue not yet done and seeing your practise is contrary to your profession as now at your request we haue shewed in the particulars aforesayd If you still be minded as before we do also still aske where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in your owne description of a visible Church Your similitude of a Landlord and Tenaunt is against your selues so worthy and Clerklike is your Reply If any haue vsurped or otherwise made a false claime never so long to a peece of land or other possession may they not iustly be called vpoÌ„ to shew their title and bring forth their euidence Let the Iudges giue sentence If you deny your claime to be such shew your euidence from the Apostles writings Let vs froÌ„ thence see your evidence for the offices of Archbs Lord bs Archdeacons Priests ParsoÌ„s Vicars c. For your entrance into these offices according to your Canons and book of ordering Priests c. For your administration by your scinted imposed Leiturgy and by your Popish Canons Officers proceedings c. For your maintenance by Tythes Chrisomes Offerings c. For your confused communion of all sortes of people though never so wicked in the body of your Church c. Let vs I say see evidence for these from the Apostles writings if you denie your claime to be such as we haue noted Otherwise if you speake not according to this word ‡ Esay 8. â—â— it is because there is no light in you neither any right to that you challendge Where you say vve held part of your possessioÌ„ vvith you hertofore If you meane that we with you receiued the beastes mark and drunke of the cup of Babels abominations we deny it not but acknowledg Gods mercy that passing ouer our sinnes hath giuen vs grace and strength “ Rev 18.4 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Act. 2.40 at his coÌ„maundement to forsake that way of Antichrist and to come out of that spirituall Babylon to the saluation of our soules Which mercy we wish also to you that being saued from that froward generation you may become the sonnes and daughters of the Lord almighty Touching your Article Preaching Sacraments MinistratioÌ„ c Ynough is said before Onely where you say you see not your selues vvherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary It is too impudent vntruth as your ‡ AdmonitioÌ„ to the Parlament T. C. his replies in defeÌ„ce thereof DemoÌ„stration of discipline Defence of Ecclesiasticall discipline c. former writings doe and will alwaies testifie to your face which we will not stand here to relate That shall suffice which we haue touched before which till it be aunswered the Exception hath both reason and weight in it whatsoever you doe or can pretend to the contrary H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 1. Excep HEre is much adoe to no purpose You obserue 4. pointes in our Article omitted by me wherein our practise is contrarie to our profession First our Article requireth a visible Church to be an assemblie of faithfull men But our ossemblies say you are not so This is false they are so you shall neuer proue in vs the contrary more then appeareth was in the Church of the Iewes both Auncient and in the time of Christ and yet they than were the true Church As I haue elswhere in this book sufficiently proued and shewed against you That which you bring of D. VVhitgift and other writers amongst vs of the prophanesse of many in our assemblies you depraue their meaninges vtterly for though they graunt very many such to be amongst vs yet they say not that all our assemblies are such nor our whole assemblies Neither denie they our assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be separated from Nay the contrary do they euen that onely they ought to be reformed Therefore you too grosly abuse them Secondly The Article requireth the pure word of God to be preached But say you the Apocrypha books and reading of Homilies and other errors are allowed in our practise Yea surely and in our profession too as your self obserueth
in the book of Artic. yet then our profession practise differ not as you charg our Churches But these pointes are not the pure word of God Neither doth the Article meane that in a visible Church euery iot and title both of our profession and practise must needs be out of the pure word They knew that euery visible Church might and did erre in somewhat Onely it meaneth that a visible Church might not erre in any poinct that of necessity is requisite as their words expresse It resteth then that you shew that the pure word is not preached in our assemblies by law sufficiently to salvation which yet you do not nor can doe Therefore you say nothing For I for my part knovv wel that our Churches faile from the pure word in sundry lesser points which though they be errors yet are they not Fundamentall neither doe they in their owne nature abolish from Christ Thirdly the Article hath according to Christes ordinance But you say that we preach in strange and false functions such as are not Christes ordinances This is false too Our ordinary Preachers are true Pastours as touching the substance of Pastorall calling as I haue often aunswered you albeit they haue a wrong ordination from the Prelacie See my defence of this poinct as also of that concerning the confusion of our people in my other vvriting long since deliuered to you touching the * In my avnsvver to the 1. reason of that treatise follovving in the eâ—de of this book comparing of the condition of a Ministerie vvith Mariadge Novv this ordinance of Christ to haue a true Pastor to a faithfull people is sufficient for the being of a true Church though not for the perfection of it Contrary to the vvhich you haue nothing but vvords Lastly the Article requireth due administration of Sacraments But our practize say you herein is not due or inâ—ier because there concurre diuers corruptions withall as â—â—inted prayers exhortations Epistles Gospels crossing in Baptisme c. I aunsvver all these simply of them selues do not abolish our Sacraments If you think they do say so and you shall be refuted If nay then this verie Article signifieth so much That corruptions and faults might be in the Sacraments but nothing amisse that of necessitie is requisite Novv all these 4. poinctes I haue omitted say you True in vvords I haue but in sence I expresse them all and euerie one vvhen for breuities sake I comprehended all in this generall clause of this Article according to all that is of necessitie requisite Hovv say you haue I not herein contained and signified all these your exceptions and that according to the meaning of the Article If I haue as it is most true then doe you vnconscionably abuse me in saying I pretended to repeate our description in the Article and yet leaue out diuers particulars of speciall moment And let this therefore be first obserued I haue omitted nothing materiall in that Article Yea let this be here noted that in all this you haue most fondly abused yout penne and tounge Yet vyill you still demaund how our practise agreeth with our profession in that 19. Article Still I annsvver you vvith that similitude of a foolish and importunate Tenaunt against his Landlord If I haue held possession and my auncestors before me time out of minde indeed rhe King laying claime to it he may call for my euidence because ‡ Time prescribeth not against the Prince nullum tempus occurrit Regi But against my fellovv subiects possession inheritance so long vvithout interruption is of it self euidence in lavv good inough except the plaintif can bring better to the coÌ„trary Therefore it vvere absurd and sencelesse before any Iudge in England for a Tenaunt to put such a Landlord to shevv his euidence in such a case Euen so as absurd it is for you seeing at first you vvere of vs and novv are gone out from vs to put vs to proue our selues to be such as heretofore you neuer doubted of If now you doubt and contradict it shew you your reason as better euidence or els all men wil condempne your folly VVhere you put me to proue all our offices of the Hyerarchie their ceremonies c. What needeth it I neuer tooke it vpon me Except you doe shew that these corruptions all or any of them absolutely in their owne nature do abolish vs al cleane from Christ make vs vnpossible to be saued which vntill you doe still I say I see not any peece of reason in all your words And Lastly where you say it is an impudent vntruth that I say we see not that anything necessarie is wanting in our Church And to this end you quote to conuince me The Admonition T. C. his Replies Demonstration Declaration and the Defence of Discipline c. This is indeed too bold an vntruth a wilfull peruerting of all your allegations None of all these do gtaunt any thing to be wanting with vs that is necessarie to the being of a Church simply nor to the being of a true Ministery or Sacraments But onely to their vvell and conuenient being Hovv honest then are you to falsifie your ovvne vvitnesses so openly Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply vpon the 1. Excep I Haue often heard such things M. Iacob Yet they are but words of wynd And now belike you tell vs here aforehand what we are to look for in this and the rest of your Replies following even much adoe to no purpose First where your Article describeth a visible Church to be a CoÌ„gregation of faithfull men you say yours are so I did and do denie it Now therefore must you proue it who made the first Argument and still continew to reply If you know not this you know little or nothing either of the rules or of the vse of sound reasoning Let any that haue knowledg judge Secondly whereas you would I should proue the contrary although in putting this over to me you manifest your owne ignorance and weaknes yet know that both “ Mr. Barrovves Refutation of M. Giffâ—rd The Discouery The Conferences published c. others of vs and †In the aunsvvers to M. A. H. to M. T. C. to M. VV. Smith and to your self my self haue done it sundrie times and taken away the obiections drawen from the corruptions in the Ievvish or any other Churches Vnto which who is there of you that ever gave vs sound aunswer Thirdly I take the whole Land to witnes against you that it is most false which here you are not ashamed with such boldnes to affirme viz. that your Church-assemblies are Congregations of faithfull men But by this may all men see you make no conscience what you affirme or denie so you may seeme to say somewhat Fourthly your owne men of all sorts confesse it to be as I have said and shewed in my former aunswer Vnto which I might adde an hundred mo
Iewes * Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13 Amos. 4.4.5 Esa 1.12.13 polluted the table of the Lord and made their oblations to be in vaine yea if the abuses in Corinth about the Sacrament made that ‡ 1 Cor. 11.20 it was not the eating of the Lords supper what then shal be thought of the heynous abominations of Antichrist retained among you in the Sacraments Your distinction of simply abolishing is but leaven of your owne borrowed from your Prelates and by them from the Papists We plainely affirme that your abuses and corruptions are such as the Sacraments among you are not duely administred according to Christs ordinance and that it cannot be showed by the word of God that they seale vp Gods covenant of grace to your Church and the members thereof in that estate Now see that according to your promise you refute this And prove that notwithstanding all your corruptions mentioned yet Christ acknowledgeth your Sacramēts for his also that the good things and ordinances of Christ wanting among you are not of necessitie requisite In the meane time know that none can partake in the administration of your Sacraments but they must needs withall partake in your sinnes before rehearsed Which the Lord hath most straitly forbidden Rev. 18.4 and 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Psal 119.21 Mal. 1.7.8.13.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Amos. 4.4.5 and 5.5 Ephes 5.11 The particulars of your Article you say you omitted for breuities sake Let others beleev you that will for mine owne part I neither do nor can beleev it You have here taken paines to write an whole book and in it a multitude of words to no purpose Is it likely then that for brevity sake you would omit the most speciall points of the Article which may be written in a line or two at the most Nay M. Iacob these clauses of faithfull men duely according to Christs ordinance are so ful and pregnant against you as you thouht it no wisdome to mention them at all but rather in silence to bury them vnder some generall terme or as your self speak to comprehend them in a generall clause This in deed was the best way to darken the truth and help your self if any way you could But any that mind your manner of dealing may easily see that if these clauses had made but a tenth part so much for you as they are fully against you then you would have ben so far from omitting thē as we should have had them noted downe in greater letters then the rest For your Article it self if the meaning of it were to comprehend those points in your generall clause why then did it so particularly mention them besides Were the framers of your Article so ignorant or carelesse think you as in a brief descriptiō of such a waighty matter they would commit so many vaine and needles tantologies Nay rather they judged all these particulars absolutely needfull specially that Christs ordinance be had and observed and that also in all things of necessitie requisite How say you is not this the meaning of the Article How fondly then and how vnconscionably have you abused not onely your pen and tounge but even your Church and book of Articles whereon you seeme for to rely How just cause also have I then still to demaund where and what your proofes be touching the particulars of your owne description of a visible Church Your parable of a Landlord and a Tenaunt besides that it is popish and against your selues as hath ben shewed it is also false You have not had possession time out of minde as you pretend It is but yesterday since this your Samaritane and misceline religion began viz since King Henry the eight Now also Christ the King and Lord of his Church doth by his servants lay claime to his owne right and disclaimeth your false worship and Ministerie So your owne saying is against your self Nullum tempus occurrit Regi No time doth preiudice the King If you plead your right by any more auncient date as from Christ and his Apostles the evidence may soone be shewed from their writings If you doe it not all men of wisdome will not onely condemne your folly who take vpon you the defence of so bad a cause but will also perceive the impietie of your Churches estate for which no warrant can be shewed frō Apostolik writ For our going out from among you when before we had held part of possession with you I brought warrant from the worde of God which you touch not at all That it lieth vpon you yea and that your self have taken it vpon you to approve your Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion of people c. appeareth not onely by the title of your book which is called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England but by reason also that you began the first Argument and continew to replie Wherevpon you are bound to proue what is denied or in this case put vnto you to be proved We then in aunswer to your Argument noting the falshood of your Hierarchy worship c. it is your part now to approve them by the word of God or to convince that they abolish not your constitution from being Christs If you cannot doe this confesse it and give glory to God That your case is thus hath ben often shewed by vs both in other writings and in these aunswers to your self And of this point there will be occasion afterward to speak againe Touching the impudent vntruth wherewith you were charged first you sayd your selves see not wherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary I alledged your owne men as witnesses to convince you therein The Admonition T. C. his replies the Demonstration c. Now you aunswer that none of all these do graunt any thing to be wanting vvith you that is necessary to the being of a Church simply nor to the being of a true Ministery or Sacraments but onely to their vvell and convenient being By which bold assertion of yours you both prove and persist in the impudent vntruth laid to your charge For hearken now and you shall heare themselves testifie thus much The first Admonition in the Preface sayeth thus In a fevv vvordes to speake vvhat vve meane Either must vve have a right Ministery of God Admonitiō to the Parliam first and second and a right government of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp both vvhich vve lack or els there can be no right Religion nor yet for contempt thereof can Gods plagues be from vs any vvhile differred And againe in the treatise it self are these words We in England are not yet come to the outvvard face of a Church agreable to Gods vvord Or as it is written in the margent of divers of those books we are scarce come to the outvvard face of a Church c. Take which of these you please the best is bad ynough Touching the Ministerie in particular the same book and men say thus We have an
* Act and Mon. edi◠5. p. 581. ◠He neither denied their popish transubstantion neither spake against the authority of the Church of Rome if it vvere vvell governed nor yet the 7. Sacraments and also sayd Masse himself and almost in all their popish opinions vvas a Papist vvith them Thus hath that book word for word What say you now vnto it What think you of these particulars and of that conclusion that not onely in these but almost in all their opinions He vvas a Papist vvith them Againe in the same book Hierom of Prage another Martyr speaking of Iohn Hus saith ‡ Ibid. pag. 584. b. he never maintained any doctrine against the Church of Rome but onely spake against their naughty life To which purpose may be minded also that the Hussites in Bohemia so called to this day for following Iohn Hus are for trausubstantiation and most of the popish errors and worship as grosse as the Papists themselves And to give an instance of our owne countreymen the same history speaking of Thomas Bilney who was burnt at Norwich hath thus * Ibid. pa. 921. b. As touching the Masse and Sacrament of the Altar as he never varyed frō himself so he never differed therein frō the most grossest Catholicks Mark these words he differed not therein from the most grossest How now will this and your speach agree who blush not to say that the book of Acts and Monuments affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Besides this bold vntruth of yours let the Reader mind how plainely you insinuate that if your Church had the Masse and the Popes supremacy so it were not in the largest and grossest sort you could defend their case aswell then as you do now by bearing the world in hand that these things might stand vvith Christ crucified c. Let the Reader mind and remember it I say no more It remaineth that now I cleare M. Hus and the rest of the Martyrs from your rash censure You judge if any of them held any errors that be fundamentall they are no holy Martyrs but abolished from Christ This I denie And you to proue it should from the Scriptures have showed first what it is to be fundamētall or of the foundation then that whosoever holdeth such error is abolished from Christ But you have done neither I know that here and everie where you give vs your bare word and obtrude vnto vs your owne fancies But your words are no Oracles nor your fācies rules for any to follow Handle these things therefore more soundly in your next And what you speak speak it frō the word of God In the meane time for better clearing of the truth and Martyrs I will show you my mind being ready notwithstanding to heare any that can show better from the word of God And so I pray you take this and all my writings First the word foundation is vsed in the scripture and therefore is of vs to be considered divers waies One is in respect of God and his election Of the foundation and fundamental points or of his Church and people called and sanctified in Christ 2. Tim. 2.19 Psal 87. Pro. 10.25 Another is in respect of the onely ground of all true faith and Churches which is Iesus Christ or of the first principles and speciall heads of Christian religion Mat. 16.15.16.17.18 1 Cor. 3.11 Esa 26.16 1 Pet. 2.6 with Heb. 6.1.2 A third is in respect of the Apostles and Prophets doctrine concerning Christ or of our receiving it and building therevpon Ephes 2.20 Rev. 21.14 1 Cor. 3 10-15 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Luk. 6.48.49 Now which way soever you take it there is no question but the Martyrs although they erred through ignorance of that time in some waightie points of Christs Religion which you call fundamentall yet were notwithstanding holy Martyrs For touching the first of the exceptions aforesaid Gods foundation remained sure and sealed vnto them so as the Lord knew them to be his and they also were sanctified both to witnes vnto death the truth then called in question and to depart from the contrarie iniquitie Touching the second and third they both beleeved in Iesus Christ as it pleased God to reveale him in their age by the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles and they built firmely therevpon not stumbling at the word and disobeying it as is the manner of most now a daies but obeying and holding it forth vnto death So as when the stormes and floods of persecution beat vpon them they were not shaken from the truth they testified but remained constant to the end even when the politick Statutes of Princes the subtill arguments of the learned the earnest perswasion of their friends the great losse of their goods liberty estimation in the world finally the most cruell vsage and tirannie of the Adversaries as it were so many waves and tempests stronglie assailed to drive them a contrarie course Thus were they faithfull to God and loved not their lives vnto death as their Martyrdome proclaimeth to all the world howsoever you could be content it seemeth for any the more advantage to your selves to lay their honour in the dust Secondly in this question we are to discerne betweeen the errors them selves and between the persons that hold them The errours may in their nature be fundamentall as you speak and yet the persons erring therein of ignorance not striving against the light revealed but indevoring to walk faithfully in the truth they see may through Gods mercie in Christ be saved For example some of the Corinthians that denied * 1 Cor. 15.12 the resurrection of the body and some of the Galatians that erred about “ Gal. 4.9.10.21 5.2.3.10 and 6.12.13.15 Circumcision the Law although the errors were in their owne nature fundamentall as you will not deme yet might they that dyed in them before Paules epistles came to those Churches thereabout be saved of God As we * 1 Cor. 11.30.31.32 read that some were dead and chastised of God a-about their abuse of the Sacrament yet not condemned with the world Likewise of Abijah the sonne of Ieroboam that made Israell to sinne the ‡ 1 King 14.1.13 Scripture recordeth that God shewed him mercie because in him was found some goodnes toward the Lord God of Israell Where marke those words some goodnes By which appeareth that although he were as the rest in that generall apostasie of Israell which your self account fundamētal yet having some goodnes in him towards the Lord he found mercie at his hands Furthermore at this day concerning the errors of the Lutherans about cōsubstantiation and the person of Christ of the Anabaptists about Christs humanitie and denying Baptisme to the seed of the faithfull of the Papistes about trāsubstantiation the Popes supremacie c. I suppose that you will graunt both that these errors be fundamentall as touching the nature of the errors thēselves and that yet
against it the estate of such to be damnable It is high time then for you M. Iacob and for D. B. who made the preface to your book and for all such whose consciences are convicted of the Antichristianitie of your Prelates and the rest of your abominations as divers times in this book your self accknowledge it is high time I say for you and all such to be warned by Corahs destruction And we now have as good warrant by your owne graunt to separate from you and all such as the Israelites had from Corah and his companie Except peradventure you thinke the Ministerie and ordinances of Christ to be of lesse moment then those of Moses or Christ the Sonne to be worthy lesse honour then Moses the servant But see more yet hereof in the 6. Reason following After this you turne back to somewhat handled in the entrance of this Exception Thus you runne in and out a man cannot tell where to have you For the point you speak of I leave it to the Reader to iudge comparing your writing and mine togeather whether I have not iustly charged you for going about to iustifie your estate by the example of Cranmer Ridley c. Now I am glad to see you acknowledge the matters controverted betweene vs to be your errours For by this it followeth that you see the contrarie truth which discovereth these to be errours And then your self I trust will not denie but that you are bound vtterlie to forsake these and to walke in the truth revealed vnto you vnles you had rather erre with Antichrist to destruction then follow Christ to salvation But you trust it is sound to iustifie by the example of the Martyrs that these corruptions abolish not you from Christ as theirs did not them Nay Mr. Iacob it is very vnsound for you or any the like to reason thus For besides the many differences betwene you and the Martyrs alreadie declared tell me your self if the Hussites so called should at this day reason after this manner viz. Although we retaine the Masse transubstantiation seven Sacraments Auricular confession and such like yet these corruptions abolish vs not from Christ any more then they did Iohn Hus and the other Martyrs that held and vsed them If I say they should now reason thus for themselves would not your self say their reason were vnsound But further if the Martyrs you speak of had seen these things to be errors and continewed in them pursued those that reproved them and against the knowen truth sought to have dawbed vp their erroneous building as you Mr. Iacob and the like among you do at this day we could not then have so esteemed them as now we do This therefore will help you nothing at all We have better hope in this respect of such in England as to this day have not discerned the Antichristian abominations among you then of you and the like strugling Pharisees for whome we feare it will be harder in the day of iudgment then for them At length you come to look at my severall aūswers To look at them I say For finding them all to heavie to lift you leave them as you found them that is firme and strong against your Churches estate For the first you would in it deceaue the Reader thus In your former Replie to this Exception you said * Pag. 28. you held Christs ordinances to be of two sorts written or vnvvritten the first necessary the second arbitrary c. and that you thought no Scripture vvas against this but rather for it In my aunswer herevnto first I asked ‡ Pag. 30. vvhat Scripture you had for this that is for this opinion of yours touching Christs ordinances Now so besides that you bring no Scripture for it you would make the Reader beleev that I asked for Scriptures to approve those orders vvhich you expresly called errors But who seeth not that I demaunded Scripture for that opinion of your Church against which you were perswaded there was not any And how then will those two stand together vnles you would have vs thinke you are so sottish as to beleeve there is no Scriptures against errors The like follie and evill dealing you shew againe in your Reply to the second When you said you thought no Scripture vvas against your foresayd opinion of Christs ordinances but rather for it was it not meet that of so many as are against it I should at least mention some Now it had ben your part either to have renoūced that false opinion with acknowledgment that the Scripture is against it or els to have aunswered the Scriptures by me alleadged But I easily beleev they load you and are to heavie for you to beare or withstand I◠your Reply to the third let all men iudge if you deale not exceeding vnconscionably Are not these your owne words which you vse in your first Reply to this Exceptio◠‡ Before in pag. 28. This we generally professe and practise We hold Christs ordināces to be of two sorts Such we hold all outward governement and ceremonies to be Thus we hold and thus we practise c. When you do so often say We professe We hold We practise Will not the Reader vnderstand your self to be one with the rest that do so hold professe and practise Againe when you say Thus we practise is it your meaning that the State doth practise thus but not your self How is it then that you preach by vertue of your Priesthood receyued from the Prelates that you are silent at their pleasure that you appeare before them at their Courts and appoyntment that you administer and receive the Sacraments with them according to their book c. Or if your meaning be in these words thus we practise to include your self with the rest why should we not also take you to be included in the other when you say thus we hold thus we professe c. Would you have vs think that in these things your iudgement is one and your practtse another Fy of such halting Howsoeuer you blind the eyes of men be sure God is not mocked He seeth and will bring vpon you that wretched hypocrisy if you still persist Further it is to be mynded that now you disclayme your Churches opinion towching Christs ordinances and consequently towching his Prophecy Priesthood Kingdome as he is there receyved Why can you not then endure that we should do likewise Or how is it that you have pleaded for it all this tyme and now leave it without help when it needeth most But by this is evident that your Churches estate is a ‡ Mat. 12.25 Kingdome divided against it self and therefore ruinous not like long to endure The state holdeth one thing you another a third sort agrees with neither Babylon †Rev. 16.19 the great city when it is readie to fall shall be devided in three parts To conclude by this opinion and practise you make your state to stand
in such case as Ieroboams was who altered but the outward ordinances of the Church as taking them to be things arbitrary at the pleasure of man Some of them I doubt not wil think you do them foule iniurie And if anie be done vnto you it is done by your self I say no more In the fourth likewise who is it of your owne Church that will not think you offer yet more iniurie both to the State and your self To the State in that you make them maintainers of Popish shifts To your self in that thus you bewray you are at a Non plus and yet yeeld not to the truth Did not your self in your first Replie vse these as good and soūd reasons And now they are convinced to be Popish have not a word to speak in defence of them but put vs over to the State for an aūswer Babell is sore wounded when all her best Physitians do thus give her over For the fift you referre vs to the first point of your explication before Which is aunswered For the sixt you referre vs to the second Which also is aunswered Neither is there any thing of waight in either of the places whither you send vs for aunswer of the particulars here conteined Let others mind if you will not what I said in the fifth and sixth aunswer before and see if your explications have any thing against them to any purpose The seventh you confesse to be against the state of your Church This I wish the Reader to marke And then having minded what I aunswered in the * pag. 34 seaventh place let him consider how wofull the estate of your Church is But now M. Iacob why defēd you not your Church seeing this is against the verie state of it by your owne confessiō Is not your book called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Why do you not then performe what the title of your book doth promise A worthie Champion sure you are to defend a Church that leave it thus in extream miserie without anie succour at all At first you seemed as if you would strike all downe afore you in defence of your Churches and Ministerie Now lo you can be content to leave them on the plaine field to shift for themselves so your self may have hope to scape by running away Before you told vs of the defence of your Churches Now you think it inough to say It is against the state of our Church and not against me Yet tell vs Mr. Iacob are you not a member of that Church And is not that then which is against the state of your Church also against you Otherwise it must needs be that your Church hath a strange estate or that you are a straunge member thereof Can the hand or eye say I am not of the bodie Or that which is against the state of the bodie yet is not against me Yet such is your aunswer as sencelesse as absurd Besides that thus whiles you think to pull your owne neck out of the collar you plunge both your self and your Church deeper in And note withall Howsoever you and such like disagree from the state of your Church in anie thing yet in this you can all agree well ynough to conspire against Christ and against his Church But so it hath ben of old Manasseh * Esa 9.20 21. and Ephraim though they were each against other were both against Iudah The Pharises and Sadducees though adversaries one to another yet ‡ Mat. 2◠15.23 Act. 5.17 handed togeather both of them against the Lord Iesus Hitherto of the seaven particulars I obiected Which all of them remaine vntaken away And thus far of the second exception and your Replies against it In which I have staied the longer because the discussing hereof will more plainelie and without all question end the controversie between vs. Chap. 6. The third Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforseid Fr. Iohnson Thirdly shew by Scripture how the 36. Article of your doctrine and book alledged agreeth with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitie The wordes of the Article are these as followeth The Book of consecration of Archbishops and Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons doth conteine all things necessary to such consecration and ordering neither hath it any thing that of it self is superstitious or vngodly And therefore whosoever are consecrated or ordered according to the Rytes of that book we decree all such to be rightly orderly and lawfully consecrated and ordered Also how it agreeth with the Gospell and true Christianitie That the Apocrypha books and Homilies are enioined to be read in the Church by the Ministers diligently and distinctly As may be seen in Art 6 and 35. of that doctrine and book aforesaid H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur third Exception is this That the 36. Article of ordaining Bishops Priests and Deacons Also the reading of Apocrypha bookes and Homilies in the Church agree not with true Christianitie Ergo the Assumption aboue is false that is the vvhole doctrine of that booke of Articles is not sufficient to make vs true Christians I aunsvver you should have said those poincts destroy vtterly true Christianity Ergo c. Els the Argument follovveth not But then vve denie flatly the Antecedent or first part of the Reason But your Reason you vvill say shall goe as you have put it Then marke these reasons even as good as yours and all one An Ethiopian is vvhite of his teeth therefore he is a vvhite man A Svvanne is black of his bill Fr. Io. therefore a Svvann is black * Note that Mr. Iacob hath added this since he received aunswer to the former It was not in the copy before Such also are almost all his notes in the Margent and some alteration in his Replies specially in his first Reply to the Seaventh Reason following Let the Reader observe this dealing My Brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a vvodden legge therefore my brother is no true man Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Excep VVHat the third Exception is you see Have you now as was before required of you shewed these things by the Scriptures Not at all First then marke that although wee call neuer so much for proof and evidence from the Scripture yet you neuer bring it but labour to put it off with other shifts and deuices As if our consciences were to be built vpō your fancies and not vpō the written word of God But what do you say to our demaund First you tell vs these thinges do not vtterly destroy true Christianitie Next you graunt notwithstanding that they agree with it as black doeth with white that is they are cleane contrarie vnto it For this your similitudes doe import Where you alledge That these things destroy not true Christianity we answer that euen that Hierarchy worship cōstitution and gouernement which you professe and practise as appeareth
of them But seeing we are here constreyned vnto it by your slie and colourable answer therefore can we not but doe it for the clearer manifestation of the trueth and better discouering of your deceipt In which respects we entreat the Reader to take in good part and duely to weigh the rehearsall following Antichristian abominations yet reteyned in England 1. The coÌ„fusion of all sorts of people in the body of the Church even the most profane and their seed being members thereof 2. The retaining and vsing in their publique worship the Apocrypha books which have in theÌ„ much error vntruth blasphemie Magick contradiction to the Canonicall Scriptures 3. Their stinted prayers and Leiturgie taken out of the Masse Book with the same order of Psalmes Lessons Collects Pater nosters Epistles Gospels Versicles Respondes c. 4. The forbidding of Marriage in Lent Advent Ember daies Rogation week c. Which the Apostle calleth a Doctrine of divels 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 5. Forbidding of meats as of flesh to be eateÌ„ in Lent Ember daies Saints Evens Frydayes and Saturdayes throughout the yeare Another doctrine of divels noted in the scripture aforesaid 1 Tim. 4.1.3 6. The oath ex officio in the Ecclesiasticall courts making men sweare to accuse themselves 7. Their Pontificall or booke of consecrating Bishops and of ordeining Priests and Deacons taken out of the Popes Pontifical Antichrist corruptions yet had in the Church of England 8. Their intolerable abuse of the word of God therein 9. Their making and being made Priests with blasphemie the Prelates saying to everie one of them whom they make Priests Receiue the holy Ghost vvhose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven c. And they that are made Priests then humbly kneeling vpon their knees at the Prelates feet 10. Their confounding of civil and Ecclesiastical offices and authoritie in Ecclesiasticall persons 11. The offices callings of Archbishops 12. Lord-Bishops 13. Suffraganes 14. Priests 15. Half Priestes or Deacons as they call them 16. Subdeacons 17. Archdeacons 18. Parsons 19. Vicars 20. Curates 21. Vagrant and Mercenary Preachers 22. Church-wardens 23. Chauncellors to the Prelates 24. Deanes 25. Subdeanes 26. Prebendaries 27. Canons and Peticanons 28. Chaunters and Virgerers 29. Epistlers and Gosplers 30. Queristers men and boyes 31. Organ-players and blowers 32. Clerks and Sertous 33. Chapleines and House-priests 34. Doctors of Divinitie 35. Bachelours of Diuinitie 36. Doctors of the Arches 37. Proctours in the Prelates courtes 38. Commissaries 39. Officials 40. Registers 41. Summoners with the rest of that Antichristian and viperous generation 42. Their Ministration of the Word Sacraments Church-governement by vertue of the officer aforesaid 43. The titles of Primate Metropolitane Lords grace Lordship c. ascribed to the Prelates 44. The inferior Prelates swearing obedience to the MetropolitaÌ„ Seas of Canterbury and York 45. The inferiour Ministers wheÌ„ they enter into the Ministerie promising obedience to the Prelates their Ordinaries and wheÌ„ they are inducted to Benefices confirming it with their oath of Canonicall obedience 46. The preseÌ„tatioÌ„ of the Priests and Deacons to the Prelate by the Archdeacon when they are made Ministers 47. Their receiving of Orders at the hands of the Prelates or their Suffraganes 48. The Prelates Confirmation or Bishoping of childreÌ„ to assure them of Gods favour by a signe of mans devising Which is to malte a new Sacrament 49. The Crosse in Baptisme of like nature 50. The hallowed Font. 51. Questions at Baptisme to the infants that can neyther speak nor vnderstand 52. Godfathers Godmothers Their promising that the child doth beleev forsake the Divell and all his workes c. 53. Womens baptising of childreÌ„ Which mainteyneth that heresy That the Children are damned which dy vnbaptised 54. Their houssing of the sicke ministring the Communion to one alone 55. Their giuing it for two pence to all commers 56. Their ministering of it not with the words of Christs institution but with other taken out of the Popes Portuis 57. The receiving of it kneeling Which teacheth still to make it an Idoll and nourisheth that popish heresy of worshipping it receiving their maker c. 58. The King in mariage making it a SacrameÌ„tall signe mariage an Ecclesiasticall action thereby nourishing the Popish heresy that Matrimony is a Sacrament 59. Their Churching or purifying of women Which sauoreth of Iudaisme 60. The standing at the Gospell reading The putting of the cap and making a legge when the word Iesus is read 61. Their Saints Angels and Apostles dayes With their fasts and prescript service 62. The Gang-week praying then over the corne and grasse c. 63. Their praying over the dead at buriall So nourishing the Popish error of prayer for the dead 64. Buriall and the solemnizatioÌ„ of mariage c. made part of the Ministers duty 65. Their absolving the dead dying excommunicate before they can have as they call it Christian-buriall 66. The ring of peales at burials 67. Beadmen at burials and hyred Mourners in mourning apparell 68. The hanging of Churches and heerses with black to help forward theyr popish show off mourning at burials 69. The Idol Temples retayned vsed for the worship of God 70. The popish vestments as Rotchet Square-cappe Tippet Sâ—rplus in Parish-Churches and Coap in Cathedrall 71. The visitations of theyr Lord-Bishops and Archdeacons 72. The Court of Facultyes From wâ—eace are had dispensations Licences Tolerations c. 73 Dispensations to eat flesh at theyr tymes forbidden Which dispeÌ„satioÌ„s also haue this clause sana conscientia that is with a safe conscience plainely shewing that they make it a matter of conscience 74. DispeÌ„satioÌ„s likewise to marty in theyr tymes forbidden 75. Licences from the Prelates to marry in places exempt By meanes of which dispensations aÌ„d Licences is mainteyned that wicked practise that many are maryed without their Parents knowledge or consent Yea many ofteÌ„ stollen froÌ„ theyr frends and so marryed 76. Dispensations for boyes and ignorant fooles to haue Benefices and charge of soules 77. Dispensations for Non-residents 78. And plurality of benefices As the having of two three fower or mo even tot quot as many as a man will haue and can get 79. Patronages of and presentations to Benefices with buying and selling of advowsons 80. Theyr Iustitutions Inductions Prories c. 81. The Prelates Chauncelours CoÌ„missaryes Officials courts c. 82. Their power to excommunicate alone and likewise to absolve 83. Theyr Penance in a white sheet 84. Theyr commutation of Penance and absolving one man for another 85. Theyr Suspensions Deprivations Degradations c. 86. The Prelates Lordly dominion revenewes and retinew 87. The Priests maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. 88. The Popes accursed Canon Law 89. And the Prelates like Articles Canons Injunctions c. from tyme to tyme newly devised and published for the Lawes ruling of theyr Church according vnto them 90. The Church-wardens oath to present to the Prelates and theyr Courts all
against all the transgressions thereof Or will it take hold of others and shall you staye free Howsoever your self seem careles what you say or do yet let others mynd their fearfull estate in that Church which retaineth such a multitude of Antichristian corruptions here graunted by your self to be against the Second commaundement the breach whereof God hath threatned to punish most severely And let it be observed that you who have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches and Ministery yet cannot deny that to be your estate Behold then to what issue your Defence is come in the end And now that you see hovv much I have made of this point at your request forget not to thank me for it in your next Reply The Scripture here alledged you would turne away from your selves by saying it is of Saul a presumptuous offender 1 Sam. 15.23 But that Scripture is not for Saul onely but for “ 1 Cor. 10.11 Rom. 15.4 others likewise And how will you shew that Saul was a more presumptuous and wilfull offender then your self and your Church Nay how will you shew that his sinne was meerly of presumption and wilfulnes The Scripture mentioneth two other causeâ— alledged by himself ‡ 1 Sam. 15.15 an intent to sacrifice to the Lord and †vers 24. feare of the people 〈◊〉 and your Church can hardly yeeld like reasons for your selvâ—s â—et if you could they 〈◊〉 not sâ—â—nd before God as this Scripture witnesseth Your clause of making your whole Churches so importeth that you take the case of some the 〈◊〉 not of all among you to be as Sauls was Then take you heed Mr. Iacob and the rest of like iudgement and practise as you â—re What I think of your whole Churches as towching their constitution I have often shewed before 3. For the third I meane it of the Antichristian abominations remayning among you and the like Neither could you be ignorant hereof seing I had a litle ♣ Pag. 63.64.65 before reckned vp so many of them in particular But you would not seem to know it because you can not prove the contrarie against it For proof of my assertion I alledg these Scriptures Exod. 20. 〈◊〉 compared with 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 Col. 2.8 Revel 1â— â—0 10.11 with ver 4. ver 12. Revel 17 1-6 with Hos 2.2 Prou. 6.27 28.32 7.22.23.27 9 13-18 2 Thes 23-12 2 Ioh. vers 9.10.11 Your inwrapping of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I have vnfolded before Pag. 8.41 Of all the reasons and differences which I named concerning you and them you picke out but one or two and the rest you passe by Now of them which you except against the first is that they suffred to death for the truth they saw Which my words you have altered thus that they for seeke all the corruptions they saw But beside the alteration your answer also is to be noted I alledged hat the Martyrs suffred to death for the truth they saw you answer this belongeth to many thousands in England no lesse then to them Can you now iustifie either your dealing or your answer Or can you shew seme hundreds of your Church in stead of your manie thousands For myne owne part if you had thousands of such I wish they were many millions But I feare that the contrarie of your speach is to true viz that there are many thousands in England so far from suffring death for the truth they see like those Martyrs as they will not 〈◊〉 imprisoÌ„ment bannishement losse of goods or the like for that truth which they do not onely see but which themselues have heretofore professed preached sued for to the Parliament c. So far are they from for â—alâ—ing all the corruption they see that I may vse your owne words Yea who can think otherwise by their estate and practise but if a Queâ—â— Mary came againe which God for did the 〈◊〉 of the Land would 〈◊〉 as the Prince beleveth and be ready to receive againe the points of Poperie now reiected as it was heretofore after King Edwards decease Marke that I speake of the face of the Land generally not of ever it particular person therein Of divers among you I have better hope as I have shewed before pag. 7. Yet for your generall state as the questioÌ„ is who can say but you are readie to receive any religion or any thing in religion to go forward or backward even as pleaseth the Prince and best fitteth your turne for avoiding of trouble and enioying your ease wealth safety c. And where then be the many thousaÌ„ds you speak of Or may wee think this is to forsake corruption and hold forth the truth as the Martyrs did Nay Mr. Iacob it is far from it And this you may note as a great difference between your estate and the Martyrs and ioyne it to the other mentioned before pag. 40.41 Now where you say there are infinite of your Church that know not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignorant of redemption by Christ c. How shew you this to be true Although if it be it is no great commendation to your Church considering what meanes of further knowledg God hath vouchsafed since that tyme. But of this point I will not stand so much I aunswer that to make your comparison hold you must compare with those learned men the learned among you and with the vnlearned then the vnlearned of yours now So shall your self and others see how vntrue your speach is Although I doubt not but even many of the vnlearned among you who have knowledge of redemption by Christ know also more of the corruptions aforesaid then those learned men did Towching that you speak of my self I have aunswered before Pag. 41. The second thing you except against concerning the Martyrs is that I said the things now controverted were not then so called in question and coÌ„vinced against them by the Scriptures as now they haue ben against you So I sayd Now speak you were they or not If they were shew it If not yeeld it But you would have me to meane this towching some few among you and not of all If it were but so yet then the thing is done more synce then in those daies But in deed the calling in question and conviction of these things hath not ben onely to some few as you would perswade The Admonitions have ben to the whole Parliament which are as the body of the whole Land and gathered from all the quarters thereof Your preaching likewise against those corruptions hath gone throughout the whole Realme So have your books written and printed against them Finally our testimony by word writing imprisomnent exile death is knowen throughout the Land Why then would you have me speak this of some few that here and there might be picked out And whereas you cannot deny but the case of some among
whither you refer vs for it though there the Reader shall finde you aunswer not the severall Scriptures here alledged for proof of it In the meane time let this be noted that here againe you graunt your Church corruptions are against the Second commaundement Therefore may none that feare God and will be assured to escape his wrath bow downe vnto them Exod. 20.5.6 Deut. 5.9.10 and 6.10.11 and 28.15.16 c. Psal 106.29 Next where I speak of your breach of the second coÌ„maundement as being spirituall whoredome you except against it as if I mismatched things otherwise then they are in deed But how can that be seing the Scriptures ‡ Pag. 68. there alledged prove that which I said Or will you say your case is not spirituall whoredome which God in that commaundement hath straitlie forbidden and severelie threatned to punish This then being so it is your self Mr Iacob that mismatch things otherwise then in deed they are For your case is not as you would pretend by your similitude like a wanton word a light gesture or contenaunce or an immodest thought of a woman But I will tell you what it is like Even as when a woman vnfaithfull to her husband is found to commit filthynes with other men after whom she goeth a whoring Now such a one whatsoever smooth speach countenance or excuse she pretend yet is in deed an whore and for this cause to be divorced That your case is such your going a whoring after Antichrist whose ordinances Hierarchie worship confusion c. are retained among you testifies to your faces Fitly therefore do we applie the Scriptures against you and your selves it is that sinne against the Third commaundement in misapplying of them as I shewed sufficientlie in my former answer against which you can say nothing To the proof of the Assumption you yeeld now at length Neither can I otherwise thinke of your aunswer seing I have proved my speach to be proper and the Scriptures fitly alledged and you refuse to iustify your owne Articles and estate Yet least you should againe cavill and delude the Reader I aske you Have I not concluded the question in a Syllogisme Why then do you not aunswer directlie to some part of it Have I not proved the Proposition by Scripture and the Assumption by your owne Writings and practise The Conclusion then must needs be true vnles one of the Propositions could be disproved which you are so far from as you never go about to do it The marginall note then is no scoffe but a iust reproof of your ignorance which in deed deserveth much more But I spare you and leave it to others to iudge whether you do any thing els in all you say but winde in and out to hide the truth and blinde the Reader if you could The Scriptures which I alledged for proof of the Proposition you handle as if I had brought them for proof of the Assumption Who is it now think you that is in a dreame Agayne your owne Books profession and practise by which I proved the Assumption you towch not at all Nay you say plainely it is no part of your mynd to iustify them Whether it be for that you see they can not possibly be iustifyed or because you want skill in your self or charity towards your Church for the doing of it let others inquire Sure I am that thus you give the cause For this belongs directly vnto it as all may see that have any vnderstanding and your self I suppose will not deny when you have called your wits a litle better togeather Chap. 8. The second Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THat which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine that cannot make either true Christians or true Churches But the doctrine publikely professed and practized by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God in vaine Therefore c. Of the trueth of the Proposition none can doubt And the Assumption is thus proved That which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God by the precepts of Man that appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine This Christ affirmeth out of Esay the Prophet Mat. 15.9 with Esay 29.13 But the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in EnglaÌ„d appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God by the precepts of man This appeareth by the 35. and 36. Articles of the book alledged and by their other books of Articles Canons Iniunctions Common prayer their Holy dayes Fasting dayes Censures Hierarchy c. All which are the precepts of men and authorised by Law in England Therefore the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine And consequently cannot make a particuler man a true Christian nor the assemblies so gathered together true Churches H. IACOB his 1. Replie to the 2. Reason THis your Second Reason is This booke and others appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine Ergo c. 1. This also hath answere in the third Exception Pag 57. 2. Also note I pray you this Scripture Mat. 15. is verified of such as were then of the true visible ♣ Marke his open contrariety with hiÌ„self granting this in Reas 6 Church with vvhom Christ and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometimes ioyne and communicate This therefore maketh for vs and against you most notably FR. Io. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Reason THe Reason is as you see it propounded before Nâ—w what propositioÌ„ do you deny Not any at all What defence then bring you of your book of Common prayer and the particulars therein of your books of Articles and Iniunctions of your Prelacy and other Ministery receyved froÌ„ then according to your popish Pontificall of your Canons and Excommunications c. Surely none neyther What then do you answer Not a word but that you refer vs to your answer before in the last Exception whither also we refer the Reader with this note that there he shall finde nothing either for answer of any proposition of this argument or for defence of your worship Prelacy Ministery and Church gouernement called into question Is not this then a worthie and Clerck like answer Have you not may we thinke good proof for your present estate and Church-constitution which thus leave it altogeather without defence even when it most needeth and as it were beggeth your help and succor if you could affoard it any Yet now having no aunswer to any part of the Argument you bid vs note that this Scripture Mat. 15. here alledged is verifyed of such as were then of the true visible Church with whom Christ himself and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometyme ioine and communicate This therefore you say maketh for you and against vs most notably 1 But first tell vs if ‡ As that of Lev. 10.1.2.3 Num. 16 1.
any should pray to be delivered from the Bishop of Rome and all his derestable enormityes If you will have your reason go for currant then let this also go with it hand in hand Now because you would here persuade vs that the publik ordinance of your Church sheweth you hold your faith and doctrine by the word professedly I will further prove vnto you that it is the faith or in deed an heresy of your Church that Christs soule went downe into Hell while his body was in the grave First the third Article of ‡ Book of Artic published 1562. your faith agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. hath this title Of the going downe of Christ into Hell Then the words of the Article follow thus As Christ dyed for vs and was buryed so also it is to be beleeved that he went downe into Hell Your translating and chaunging of the words of the Article otherwise then they do themselves as I noted before sheweth not their meaning but your perverting thereof I omit that in your aunswer to D. Bilson you set not the words of the Article of K. Edwards tyme in English at all Belike you saw it would sooner have discovered your fraude Secondly M. Nowell in his †On the Artic of the Creed He descended into Hel. Catechisme saith as much as your Article doth And this Catechisme is authorised in an whole * Syn. Lond. Anno. 1571. Synod and cōmāded to be taught throughout the Land Thirdly to put the matter out of all doubt the singing Psalmes printed with priviledge and authorised to be sung in all your Churches ♣ In the Psal beginning thus All my belief and cōfidence c. have it expressely thus And so he dyed in the flesh but quickned in the spirit His body then was buried as is our vse and right His spirit did after this descend into the lower parts To them that long in darknes were the true light of their harts Note also that the title of this Psalme is The 12. Articles of Christian faith Is not this then your Churches expresse faith and doctrine Yea is not that also expressed here which in the Article in K. Edwards tyme was mentioned How badly then and sophistically do you plead about your Churches faith and ordinance herein Towching which I meane the ordinance of your Church you may see D. Bilson hath the better of you though otherwise by the word of God it is plaine he hath the worse and standeth in a detestable error both against all proportion of faith and against the expresse evidence of these Scriptures Luk. 23.46 with Psal 31.5 Ioh. 19.30 Luk. 23.43 with 2 Cor. 12.2.4 Rev. 2.7 3.21 Heb. 12.23 Col. 2.14.15 Eph. 4.8.9.10 1 Pet. 3.18.19.20 2 Cor. 13.4 Psal 16.8.9.10.11 with Gen. 5.24 37.35 2 King 2.1.11 Eccles 12.7 Act. 7.59 Luk. 16.26 But tell me now Mr Iacob what power of Christ your Church hath and in whose hands it is to excommunicate D. Bilson for teaching and mainteining this or any other false doctrine a mong you Your self are a member of that Church together with him You haue written against him and by the word of God convinced him He notwithstanding persisteth and leaveneth others as much as he can Now if you be the Church of Christ as you would beare vs in hand why do you not proceed with him by the †Mat. 18.17 1 Cor. 5.4.5.6.7.11.12.13 rule and power of Christ Or if your Church haue not that power of Christ as all may see why do you not confesse it to be none of Christs Even by this then if you note it well you may perceive what your Churches faith and ordinance is Not to speak here of other most erroneous doctrines and filthy abominations mainteined among you In the third place I proved the Samaritans sinne to be against the second commaundement inasmuch as worshipping the true God they did it in and by the Images they framed Now your aunswer is that they worshipped the Idols of the Heathen and sacrificed to them and accompted them to be Gods aswell as the God of Israel and so brake the first commaundement And to prove this assertion of yours true and myne false you alledge 2 King 17.29.30.31 Where it is said Every nation made their Gods c. But are you no better divine then so Mr Iacob Are you a teacher in this light of the Gospell and vnderstand not yet this phrase of Scripture Know you not that the Lord “ accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances Images Altars places Ministeryes rites ceremonies c. are kept and observed though it be for his worship and service Or mynd you not that †2 King 17.29.30.31 these and the like speaches in the Scripture are sacramentall “ Deut. 12.30.31 Iudg. 17. chap. 2 King 16 10-16 with 2 Chron. 28.23 2 King 17.7.8 c. Hos 2.16 Ezec. 14.3.4.5 c. 20.39.40 Exo. 32.4.5 When the ‡ Exod. 32.4 Iewes and ♣ 1 King 12.28 Ieroboam said of their golden calves These be thy Gods ô Israell which brought thee out of the Land of Egypt Do you think they meant those golden Idols now made by them selves were in deed the God of Israell that brought them out of Egypt Or do you not thus vnderstand it that they made and vsed those only for signes and representations of that God That this was their purpose appeareth both by the * occasion of making them and by their ‡ Exod. 32.4 vse of them being made wheras still they intended their feasts and worship before them and by them to be to Iehovah the true God * Exod. 32.1 1 King 12.26.27.28 ‡ Exod. 32.4 Exod. 32.5 1 King 12.28.32.33 with Amos. 4.4.5 5.22.23 8.14 Micah 6.6.7 The same may be seen in Michahs example of mount Ephraim and in his mother Iudg. 17. In her that when she made a graven Image even then she prayed to Iehovah the true God and dedicated to him the silver whereof she made that Image Iudg. 17.2.3.4 †Iudg. 17.5.10 In Michah himself that he ‡ Exod. 32.4 made an Ephod and Teraphim and had an house of Gods and took first one of his owne sonnes then a Levite for his Priest Yet by all these intended the worship onelie of the true God As appeareth both by his owne speach Iudg. 17.13 when he †said Now I know that the Lord Iehovah not Idols will be good vnto me seeing I haue a Levite to my Priest and by the historie following Iudg. 18.5.6 Yea of the Samaritans themselves of whom the question is when they had made their Gods and put them in the houses of the hy places the Scripture here cited by your self saith Thus they feared Iehovah the Lord and appointed out Priests c. 2 King 17.32 The words then when it is said they made Gods c. are not literallie to be taken but sacramentallie attributing that in
erected visible Idols 1 Kin. 12.28 and very filthy ones even calves and brute beasts The same you might alledge of the Israelites with Aaron Exod. 32.4 whose sinne notwithstanding was directlie against the Second commandement as you confesse yours also is Besides Mr Iacob have not you and your Church too your visible Idols What els I pray you are your Service book your books of Canons and Homilies your Book of ordering Priests and Prelates taken out of the Popes pontificall your Idoll-shepheards Zach. 11.17 even the Prelates and Priests themselves such as to whom for any sound knowledge they have in themselves or good instruction they give or receive of others may fitly be applied that saying of the Prophet concerning Idols They have a mouth and speak not they have eyes and see not Psal 115.5.6 they have eares and heare not c. Where in the next place to lessen your sinne in respect of Ieroboās you say you professe your Ecclesiasticall orders to be but indifferent things for order and comelines onely how absurd againe and shameles is your pretence Do you in deed professe that your Book of common prayer with the other aforsaid are but indifferēt things for order and comelines only If so then are they not the true worship and service of God commāded in his word to be observed of his Church For that is not an indifferent thing but straitlie enjoined to be kept without spot or chaunge vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Exod. 20.4.5.6 1 Tim. 6.13.14 Col. 2.8.22.23 Rev. 22.18.19 Againe do you professe the confusion of all maner people in the body of your Church to be an indifferent thing for order and comelines onely If so then you might aswell tell vs you professe darkenes to be light disorder and confusion to be order and comelines c. Or do you professe that your Archbishops and other Prelates and Priests with their offices and callings taken out of the cup of Babylon your forbidding of meats and mariage called by the Apostle doctrines of Divels your retaining the Apocrypha Books in your publik worship Pag 63. c which have many lyes and great blasphemy in them Do you I say professe that these with the rest of your abominations ‡ before rehearsed are but indifferent things onely for order and comelines And is this in deed the profession of your generall State as ‡ here you note in the margent Then sure you are not far behind Ieroboam Pag. 110. if not far worse in some respects And by this it is evident to note it by the way that your generall State is conuinced of great impietie inasmuch as howsoever it stood for the controversy otherwise yet none can be so grosse as to deny but thus far you are convinced that these are not indifferent things c. You had need also look well about you what to aunswer for speaking in such maner of your generall State Now for Ieroboam what will you say if he also held this as the chief and mayne thing ♣ that the true God who is infinite and every where present be worshipped but whether at Ierusalem or at Dan Ioseph Antiq Iud. lib. 8. cap. 3. whether in Salomons Temple or at the Calves which he had now made whether by the Levites or by others consecrated to that service c. that these and the like he accounted and vsed as indifferent things as might seem best to serve for the opportunity of their dwelling for that estate c. See Iosephus Antiquityes if he do not testify thus much concerning him affirming further that by these meanes he deceyved the people and drew them from the true worship of God which in the end was the cause of their vtter ruine Lo here the fruit and yssue of such pretences Further you alledge 2 Chron. 11.15 Where Ieroboam is said to appoint Priests for the high places and for Divels and for the Calves he had made So have you also appointed Priests such as God never ordeined and that for your high places and Calves that is for your Idols Temples and Service the places and maner of your publik worship to this day Of which three points viz your Priesthood Idoll-temples A treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England and false worship I have written in another treatise to which I refer you Where it is said Ieroboā appointed Priests for Divels you are to know if already you do not that this is spoken mystically in respect of Gods account and as it was in deed not that Ieroboam and the people did so think and esteem it themselves And that you may have lesse preiudice of this which I say heare it of Peter Martyr who writeth thus of it Ieroboam and his complices said they worshipped not the Calves but Iehovah in that figure visible signe but the Scripture in the Chronicles witnesseth their imagination to be frustrate because in deed they did that service not to Iehovah but to Divels P. M. Lo. com p. 1130. Epist ad Eccles peregrin Lond. I will also help you to vnderstand this point by a like example to which I suppose you will yeeld The Papists in Gods account are worshippers of Divels Rev. 9.20 Yet in their owne judgement they do not so but pretend to worship God himself Even so it was with Ieroboam Further for the more clearing of this matter see what it is in deed thus to worship Divels And heare it of Mr Iunius whose judgement I know in this case you will judge lesse partiall He in his notes vpon Lev. 17.7 saith thus Men sacrifice to Divels if they sacrifice eyther in other place or after other rite and maner then the Lord hath prescribed See Deut. 32.17 1 Cor. 10.20 And this he sheweth was the sinne of the Iewes both in Egypt and in the wildernes first by Exod. 32. chapter then by ‡ Lev. 17.7 this verse where the word hereafter or no more is vsed and lastly by Stephens testimony Act. 7.42 Ieroboam then worshipped Divels not in his owne purpose and judgement but in Gods account because his worship of God was in other place and after other maner then the Lord had apppointed Now seing you graunt this here to be true of Ieroboam how will you denie it either for the Papists from whom you have borrowed your worship or for your selves the children of their fornications And that you may see it is a thing needfull to be mynded in your Church-constitution note for your selves that * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 the erroneous doctrines of Antichrist are by the Lord accounted and in the Scripture called doctrines of Divels †Rev. 9.20 the worship of Antichrist the worship of Divels ♣ Rev. 16.13.14 the Ministers of Antichrist the spirits of Divels ‡ Rev. 18.2 the confusion of all prophane people and abomination in the body of Antichrists Church and religion the habitation of Divels c.
discover error as it was at first to reveale the truth You pretend also 2 the opinion of many auncient and late learned godly Christiās and 3 their expositiō of the Scriptures so as herein they cary ambiguity in infinite Thousands iudgment To both which I answer 1. That great antiquity was alledged by the Samaritans Ezra 4.2 Ioh. 4.20 and is also by the Papists at this day for their Prelacy Priesthood worship and other their errors of Purgatory Masse Prayer for the dead mixing water and wine in the Cup Iustification by works Extreme vnction Transubstantiation c. And the Scriptures too are so expoūded as they carry no small ambiguity in these points in the judgement of infinite Thousands Pag. 44. 45. 2. I have also shewed before how even some of the Martyrs learned and godly Christians held divers of these popish errors vnto death And therefore doubtles so took and expounded the Scriptures as vpholding them 3. And be sure whensoeuer you bring the many auncient and late learned and godly Christians you speak of for your assertion that as many such if not far mo both auncient and new may he brought to the contrary And what then are you the nearer 4. But in deed I deny this which you say There is not testimony from such antiquity as you speak of for your Prelacy and the rest of your abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. If you can therefore shew it in your next And mynd as for the rest so for the Prelacy in particular that you shew it to be such as yours in office entrance administration maintenance c. For although ♣ the mystery of iniquity began to work betimes yet it was both withheld a while from being revealed 2 Thes 2.3.6 7.8 with Rev. 13.11 and coming vp out of the earth it appeared and was exalted not all at once but by degrees So as it was a long season in this rising of Antichrist ere the Prelacy came to that height which now it hath with you and in Rome the mother thereof Search and see if it be not thus And in the meane tyme because I know you haue a prejudice of whatsoever I say heare a litle what Mr Cartwright one of your selves hath written of your Prelacy against D. Whitgift now Archb. of Canterbury Our Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons c. saith he besides the names have almost nothing common vvith those of elder tymes Againe If those Bishops vvere alive they vvould not knovv ech other For that they vvould think ours Princes and ours would esteeme them as hedge Priests not vvorthy of their acquaintance or fellovvship T. C. first Rep. Pag. 124. c. and his 2. Rep. Pag. 660. And in the same place comparing them togeather he sheweth vnanswerably in many particulars how farre they differ the one from the other So as your Archbishop in this poynt also hath ever since ben at a Non plus Now if you please you may take your Archbishops quarrell in hand and strive with as good successe as he for these and the rest of your Romish traditions 5. Finallie remember on the one hand how our grandmother Eue at the first entring of sinne into the world insinuated ambiguity in the word of God which yet in deed was most cleare and plaine Gen. 3.3 with Gen. 2.17 And mynd well on the other hand if at this day the Papists themselves bring not greater show of Scripture for their grossest heresies of “ Iam. 2.21.24.25 Dan. 4.24 Mat. 25 35.36 Iustification by works †Mat. 26.26 Ioh. 6.51.53 Trāsubstantiation “ Iam. 5.14 Extreem vnction * 1 Tim. 3.15 Ioh. 14.26 16.13 Impossibilitie of the Church to erre c. then you or any other either have brought or can bring for your Prelacy and other impietyes before mentioned Shall we therefore conclude as you do that they are not easily convicted though they be mistaken in these things God having so disposed in his providence to suffer this among Christians so long and so vniversally God forbid Or shall we think that Ieroboam and the Iewes of whō you speak had not their pretences and excuses aswell as you and the Papists I have shewed before that they had Besides also as Moses and the Prophets were plaine against their corruptions so are both they and the Apostles as playne against yours As for example that there should be no forbidding of meats or mariage no read or stinted prayer no mens inventions to worship God by no Priests in office of Ministery neither any Lord Bishops but Christ onely no baptizing by women no Idoll Temples no Apocrypha books or prescribed Homilyes for the worship of God no Popes Canon Lavv or Prelates decrees to rule the Church by c. Compare now with these the Calves Images Priests and places whereof you speak and see if the word of God condemne not the one aswell as the other Mind also how against these Gods voice hath sounded in your eares by the testimony of his seruants from tyme to tyme and how his hand hath fearfully smitten you with hardnes of heart and given you over to false worship and persecution of the truth besides all other impietyes raigning among you Then which what greater judgement can there be in this life Consider also the example of Corah and his companions whom the earth swallowed vp and fyer devoured from heaven Num. 16. chap. 26.9.10 Whose case although it be handled and compared with yours in the Second Exception before Pag. 33. 52. 55. 3. yet because of the childish excuses which you shame not still to plead vnder pretence of vvant of conviction darkenes of the vvord vnto you c. and because ‡ Before Pag. 37. your self also do judge their case to be most wretched and altogeather inexcusable therefore will I here againe put you in mynd to consider well with your selves and to examine by the word of God whether your sinne may not be esteemed in some respects greater then theirs 1. The Office and function which they vsurped was a true one Numb 16.10 Yours false 2. The things which they took and offred were such as God had cōmanded vers 18. Yours such as man prescribeth 3. The people to whom they would administer were a true Church vers 2.3 Yours a false 4. The reasons which they alledged divers of them were more seeming-good then any you bring vers 3.14 5. They thought they did well and as was meet vers 3.13.14.18.19 You at least manie of you know and have professed that your Ministery and worship is Antichristian and therefore evill and abominable 6. They had not the written word so as you have vers 5.7.9.10.28 c. Lev. 8. 9. chap. wiih Heb. 1.1.2 2.2.3 7. They sinned in one thing vers 10. You in an hundred 8. They were twise or thrice admonished and reproved vers 4.5.8 c. You ten tymes 9. They stood vp against Moses and Aaron vers 3 You
against Iesus Christ 10. They as they pretended for the liberty and service of the Israel of God vers 3.13 You as your selves do know and acknowledge many of you for * Rev. 13.16 17.4.5.6 18.3 the slaverie and abominations of the Whore of Babylon Of which see before Pag. 63. c. Now your case being thus Mr Iacob it is high tyme for you to lay it to heart and to look vnto it betymes Or if you will not yet let such among you as feare God and tremble at his word be warned by this example of Corah and his partakers that they do with speed depart from the tents of such vngodlie men and that they towch nothing of yours least they perish in all your sinnes Numb 16.26 with Rev. 18.4 Neither need you or anie among you flatter your selves in this as it seemeth you do that the punishements of sinne are not now vnder the Gospell so outward and miraculous with Gods hand from heaven as they were then vnder the Law For first this argueth the more clearenes of the word now revealed as lesse needing such outward work to be joined withall for help thereof Which is contrary to that you spake before of greater darkenes in the word for our vnderstanding and vse now then for theirs then Secondly the judgements that then came vpon them were for ensamples and are written to admonish vs vpon whom the ends of the world are come 1 Cor. 10.11 with Num. 26.10 Thirdly even since the tyme of the Gospell there are some examples in the Scripture though not so manie as in the tyme of the Law of Gods miraculous hand smiting both †Act. 5 1-11 hypocrites in the Church and ‡ Act. 13 6-11 oppugners of the truth without Which should teach all men to take heed to their wayes aswell as if there were a thousand mo besides Not to speak here of such examples as the Elclesiasticall storyes in all ages older ond later do abundantlie afford Fourthlie the lesse outward punishment is now in this life brought vpon Idolaters persecutors despisers of the truth c. the greater is reserved for them in the world to come Els the Papists and the most prophane might pretend this for themselves aswell as you And yet too In the yeare 1593. c. take heed you forget not * the great plague and famine by which God hath pleaded against England alreadie Neither do you know what other judgement he hath in store for you even in this life if you still persist in your Antichristian estate and will not be reclaymed Finally for full aunswer of all you say here read and mynd well that which is written Eccles 8.11.12.13 9.1.2.3 12.13.14 Towching the estate of Ieroboam and the Israelites compared with yours I have spoken ynough before Pag. 110. c. I wish your case were not in divers respects worse then theirs Where I said this cause hath ben made manifest to the consciences of men to the high Court of Parliament c. you graunt in this I say well If so then your self have done ill in resisting it so long But now it is well you yeeld it at length Yet behold as if you feared to yeeld to much to the truth at once you do by and by except that it is not made manifest to the consciences of all men or the most no not of them that know and feare God among you c. 1. If it be not where is the fault In the maner of conviction or in your selves That it is not in the conviction your self testify seing you graunt it is such as thereby to some mens consciēces the cause is made manifest Why then should it not be likewise to the rest if your owne blyndnes or wilfulnes through the just judgement of God were not the hindrance When Paul at Rome testifyed to the Iewes the kingdome of God c. some were perswaded with the things that were spoken but some beleeved not Act. 28.24.25 c. Had it now ben any exception of waight to have said as you do here it is made manifest to the consciences of some but not of all c. Nay the Apostle so rests telling such as were not perswaded that this came to passe through their owne wilfull blindnes and hardnes of heart by the just hand of God vpon them And to this end he alledged against them that saying of Esay the Prophet Esay 6.9.10 Which you in this case of yours may fitlie also applie vnto your selues 2. Further you can not deny but it hath to the Parliament ben made manifest Now that being gathered out of all the parts of the Land and representing the whole body thereof as I noted in my former aunswer by this is evident that the whole body of the Land have had it manifested vnto them Exod 3.16.18 Deut. 21.2.6.7.8 2 Sam. 5.1.3 1 Chron. 13.1 2.4 28.1 2. Act. 28.17 And this in such cases is sufficient yea the best course that can be taken for the generall State Of which the question is In the place before alledged we fynd that Paul judged it the best course and sufficient to call together but the chief of the Iewes and to testify his cause vnto them Act. 28.17 c. And otherwise how will you prove the Religion now mainteined among you to be the profession and consent of the whole Land Do all and every one that is member of your Assemblies so professe Nay do they so much as know what it or anie Religion is As then it stands for your profession so must it for your conviction that what is done by or to the Parliament it is reputed as done by or to the whole Land 3. The books also that are published and our testimony otherwise not onely by word and practise of vs all but as is come to passe in many even by death exise imprisonment c. are offred to all alike and knowen so to be throughout the Land If anie then be ignorant or vnconvinced it lyeth vpō themselves who either beleev not what they know or might know further if they would Ier. 9.6 But we may feare it is with you as Ieremy said that in deceit you refuse to know the Lord and his truth Beware therefore least that come vpon you which is spoken of in the Prophets Behold ye despisers and wonder and vanish away for I worke a worke in your dayes a worke which ye will not beleev if any declare it vnto you Hab. 1.5 with Act. 13.40.41 4. Finallie can you give vs a rule or instance of such conuiction as you insinuate Would you have vs go to all your parishes and Assemblies one after another yea to every Prelate and Priest man and womā old and young high and low bond and free throughout the Land and conuince them in particular If you meane so all men surelie will eyther pitty your simplicity or laugh at your follie I omit that
but that still the reason deduced from thence is of force against you now you would have vs passe by you and not to apply it vnto you or your mother Church of Rome but to vnderstand it of Martion and Tatianus of whom you say that they absolutely condemning mariage and certen meats might indeed even therein vvholy fall from the faith somevvhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for having their consciences conuicted and seared vvith an hote iron And thus say you are they in no comparison vvith you of Englād But first if your former answer were of anie weight it might be asked why the followers of Martion and Tatianus might not likewise have defended them thus and said that their departure from the faith vvas but in some poincts not vvholy from all Secondly if this scripture was verifyed as you graunt in Martiō and Tatianus for their condemning of mariage and meats then we must needs think it verified also in the Romishe vvhore and her apostate childrē which are falne into the very same sinnes that are heer mentioned The Apostle nameth Martion and Tatianus no more then he doeth the whorish Babylon and the children of her fornication but comprehendeth heer all such who so ever they be as shall fall into this Apostasie And further if the wordes of this scripture be duly weighed and either other scriptures or the estate of the Romish harlot and her children cōpared therewith it will be found as lively to describe these as either Martion or any other that ever were in the world 1. First when the Apostle sayth that this shal be in the latter tymes who seeth not that it doeth most directlie point at the Romish Whore Though we doubt not but Martiō and Tatianus who lived 1400. yeares since or thereabout may also be cōprehended therein 2. Secondlie when it is said they shall departe from the faith thereby signifying that once they held the faith how playne is this of the Romish harlot which in the †Rom. 1.7 Apostles time was the spouse of God and since is falne into Apostasy and become the Mother of vvhoredomes and abominations of the earth 2. Thes 2.3 and Rev. 17.1.2.3.4.5 3. Thirdlie when it is said they shall give heed to spirits of errour and doctrines of Divels how fitly agreeth this to the Romish Babylon which as the scripture els where testifies is become the habitation of Divels hold of all soule spirits Rev. 18.2 4. Fourthlie when it is said they shall speake lyes through hypocrisy not to reckon vp the infinite particulars that might be alleadged for proof hereof how fitlie doth this describe the Religion and practise of the man of sinne the Romish Antichrist which the Scripture also calleth “ a mystery of iniquity as pretending to be with and for Christ and to draw men vnto him when indeed it is opposed against and exalted above the Lord Iesus and all his holy ordinances 2 Thes 2.4.7 5. Fiftlie when it is said they shall have their consciences seared vvith an hote iron how true is this found vpon the throne of the Beast and his Kingdome concerning which the scripture also testifieth †that vvhen the vials of Gods vvrath shal be povvred out vpon them and they conuinced of their jmpieties and abominations they shal be so farre from acknowledging and forsaking them as they shall gnavv their tongues for sorrovv and rather thē they will forsake their wickednes shall fight against God and his truth ‡ Let their raylings slāders Edicts Articles iniunctions finally their cōtinuall oppositiōs madnes against the truth people of God be witnesses of all this blaspheming the God of heaven for their paines for their sores and not repenting of their vvorkes Rev. 16.10.11 Lo here a seared cōscience in the Beastes kingdome 6. Finallie when the Spirit of God giveth here two particular instances of this apostasy 1. The forbidding of mariage 2. And the commaunding to absteine from meats vvhich God hath created to be received vvith thankesgiuing How directlie doeth he in both these as it were with the finger point at the Romish Babylon and her daughters In the one that is the forbidding of Mariage when as the Romish Babylon forbiddeth it to Priests Friers Nunnes and such like and the English her daughter to fellowes of Colleges and prētises and both these Churches to all men and women in Lent Advent Rogation vveek c. In the other that is the forbidding of meats when they forbid the eating of flesh on Fridayes Saturdayes Emberdayes Lent Saints eves c. Thus you see this Scripture which you would turne over to Martion and Tatianus doth most fitlie agree vnto and most plainlie describe the Romish Apostasy whether we apply it therevnto or compare this and other scriptures togeather speaking of the same Apostasy and defection By this also may appeare that as you say of Martion and Tatianus that they might be said wholy to fall from the faith somwhat like to Balaam Iudas those apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for having their cōsciences conuicted and seared with an hote iron So may be said also of the Romish Babylon and her daughters Touching which point see moreover what is said before in the sixt Reason Neyther will your marginall additions nor your new clauses in the Reply it self help eyther you or the Papists any whit They are all as foolish and as contradictorie to the Apostles expresse words as be those which you vsed before So the same answer may serve them all still And whereas in the margent you refer vs to your next Reply follovving thither also do I refer you for aunswer of whatsoever you can there alledge In the meane tyme let the Reader mynd here that both all your marginall notes and such clauses also in this Reply of yours as are now included in a parenthesis be newly added in your printed book and were not before in your written copy which I aunswered Your self belike do now see the folly and insufficiency of your former pretended distinctions and excuses This by the way I thought now to adde by reason of these your new additiōs Now if seeing the evidence of this Scripture so full and plaine against your selves you would therefore except 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 that in deed in the Romish Church it is so but not in yours of England First by this meanes you should overthrow your owne answer here who have denied it of the popish forbidding of meats and mariage and would turne it over from them to Martion and Tatianus Yea and feare not now againe to give the holy Ghost the lye when you pretend that the very Papists themselves if they erred in nothing els have not their consciences convicted nor seared with an hote iron which yet the Apostle affirmeth expressely of all such 1 Tim. 4.2.3 Secōdlie this would not hinder but that the consequent of the Proposition and the Assumption are good
142. If Papists were no worse but in these errors onely they might be true Christians notwithstanding A most false and hereticall assertion As if the doctrines of Divels were not bad ynough to make them Antichristians Or as if they could both be true Christians and yet depart from the faith of Christ give heed to spirits of error mainteine doctrines of Divels c. All which they do even in these errors as the Apostle saith expresselie 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Now then do you not thus still both contradict the Apostle and forget your self Will not the conclusions also which I gathered from your words still follow herevpon And who then is it Mr Iacob that speaketh straunge vntruth and is vnreasonable vnconscionable wilful c. Yet mynd further Whosoever say you do forbid mariage and meats they do depart from the faith But both the Papists Church and yours say I do forbid mariage and meats Therefore both the Papists Church and yours do depart from the faith What part of this Reason now do you deny The Proposition or first part is the * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Apostles saying and now at length yeelded vnto by yourself The Assumption or second part is the estate and practise both of your Church and the Papists As I have proved before and you have left vnaunswered being not able to speake one word in defence eyther of their Church or your owne The Conclusion or last part then is and must needs be true This all men know that know any thing in sound reasoning And yet behold to shew your self a notable Dunse you shame not to trie about the Conclusiō yea and to deny it whiles you say they are true Christians notwithstanding Which is as much as if you should say they do not depart from the faith notwithstanding And what is this els but to deny the Conclusion Lo here your Clerklike skill in Argumentation your Christian and conscionable disputing But you note that in departing from the faith some do it more some lesse What then They that do it least do they it not to much Because your case or the Papists is not worse then the Iewes Turks Arrians Manichees c. is it not therefore bad ynough Yet thus you reason There are that depart from the faith more then wee and the Papists Be it so What will you conclude thereby That the Papists case and yours is therefore good ynough 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 or that you are not within compasse of ‡ this Scripture Or not subiect to wrath in and for such estate of your Church If this be your meaning speak it out plainelie and fumble not still in the mouth as you do But then note for your learning * Mat. 11 20-24 Chorazin Bethsaida Capernaum had more great works of God done among them then Tyrus Sidon or Sodom had Yet these who had lesse perished notwithstanding in the wrath of God To what purpose then do you reason in this maner I will shew you a better way Either iustify by the word of God your estate that in it you depart not from the faith or els yeeld to the truth which all may see so dazels your eyes as you can not go on but are driuen to a flat Non plus Where you say Men depart from the faith Simply and Fundamentally two wayes Although I might yeeld to both and your case be never the better yet you must prove first that the Scripture teacheth this distinctiō of yours For els what waight is there in it 2. Prove that there are no mo nor other wayes of such departing but these two Els your division is vnperfect 3. Shew that such may be found as holding the foundation in doctrine sound yet do desperatly professe and teach somewhat els against the manifest light that is in them Which is one of the wayes you speak of and for example of it you bring Martion and Tatianus But in these you prove it not neither I think will you prove it by any other in hast For is it possible that anie should both hold the foundation in doctrine sound and yet desperatlie professe and teach somewhat els against the manifest light that is in them If this be not a Paradoxe what is 4. Yet mynd that now you graunt Men may hold the Foundation in doctrine sound and yet erre fundamentally other wayes Thus you are quite gone Mr Iacob For heretofore you bare vs in hand that you erre not fundamentally so long as you hold the foundation in doctrine sound Pag. 28. 91. 92. 109. 111. This also was the ground of your maine Argument from your book of Articles Which now your self have overthrowen 5. Your distinction and acception of Fundamētall errors here and every where is such as whosoever hold them are vtterly abolished from Christ and cannot possibly have a lively saving faith vvithall This you must prove by the word of God if you will have it receyved Your words and distinctions without such proof cannot settle the conscience I have shewed before that some of the Martyrs dyed in such errors as your self account Fundamentall Pag 44. c. Shall we therefore say as here you teach that they were vtterlie abolished from Christ and could not possiblie have a lively saving faith withall God forbid 1 Some may erre in fundamentall points and yet through the mercy of God in Christ be saved failing therein of ignorance and not striving against the light of truth but laboring to walk faithfully with God in that he hath revealed vnto them For proof hereof I have ‡ Pag. 44. 45. 46. before alledged not onelie the example of divers Martyrs but such also in the Churches of Corinth and Galatia as before they receyved admonition and better instruction dyed in their errors which †pag. 28. 92. you acknowledge to be fundamentall And the like among the Israelites that dyed in Egypt “ Ios 24.14 Ezech. 20.5.7 where they had and vsed Idols which ♣ pag. 105. 109. your self esteem to be a fundamentall sinne wholy destroying the truth in them that do so Yet dare I not say but some of these might be saved by the mercy and in the truth of God which they embraced notwithstanding and namelie such who erred and dyed before that admonition came to them as did to the rest whereof we read Ezech 20.5.7 1 Cor. 15. Gal. 5. chap. Much more may and ought we to think thus of Terah Abrahams father of whom Christ came according to the flesh Gen. 11.27 vvith Ios 24.2.14.15 Not to speak of Haran Bethuel Rachel and the like then who did all of them serve the Lord by Idols Yea though it had ben so that Rachel had dyed before as she did presentlie after that cōmaundement given by Iacob to his houshold and to all that were with him for putting away the straunge Gods or Idols that were among them Gen. 35.2.3.4.16.18 vvith Gen. 31.16.19.30.34 24.4.15.50 11.27.28 Ios 24.2.14.15.23.24 So far
thus in deed you do still shew your brasen forhead and seared conscience Towching Corah Dathan Abiram c. besides that I have aunswered to your Reply in the Second exception Pag. 53. I have also purposely in many particulars compared their case and yours together in the Sixt Reason Pag. 130. Which if you can you may refute in your next or by silence give place to the truth Where I proved by sundry other Scriptures compared with this to Timothy Pag. 139. 140 that the Romish harlot and her children are here properly and specially deciphered you aunswer not one word vnto it Nay you are so turned out of all your shifts as even now when you would shift it of to Martion and Tacianus you giue more evidēce that it resteth on your owne heads rather then on theirs And this I prove by comparing together your saying here with the Apostles there You say here that Martion and Tatianus did Fundamentally fall from the faith because they simply forbad those good ordinances of God Mariage and meats even against the light of conscience and nature presumptuously quenching the instinct thereof Now if this were so Mr Iacob then by your owne saying they did not speak falsehood in hypocrisy but in open and presumptuous blasphemie Whereas the Apostle noteth such expresselie as speak lyes in hypocrisy 1 Tim. 4.2.3 And such in very deed I proved your case and the Papists to be in my former aunswer Pag. 137. c. Against which you can bring nothing at all Yet you blush not to say you passe by my puestions and demaunds about the Papists and their errors as more vayne then pertinent Whereas in deed the truth is that the questions and reasons do so nearly concerne both the Papists and your selves as you dare not medle with them Otherwise if you could you should at least not onely have said but some way proued them to be vaine But this labour it may be your reserve to your next Reply If so then examine them in particular and shew the vanity of them from point to point Els know they are so pertinēt as here againe you are brought to a playne Non plus And because in my former aunswer I did but brieflie towch that point of your speaking lyes through hypocrisy I will for further evidence of this Scripture against you mention here some few particulars mo 1. It cannot be denyed but you worship God by a Service book taken out of the Popes portuis and by many other the inventions af men Yet you pretend that you worship God in spirit and truth according to his word A lye in hypocrisy 2. Your Churches Ministers and people stand subiect to other Archbishops and Lordbishops then Iesus Christ and to their Courts Canons Excommunications c. Yet you beare men in hād that you receive Christ only as Lord and King of the Church and obey his Lawes and ordinances Another lye in hypocrisy 3. Your Hierarchy and whole Ministery from the highest Archbishop to the lowest Priest is Antichristian in you offices entrance administration maintenance Yet who knoweth not that in all these you perswade the world you are the Ministers of Iesus Christ Falsehood in hypocrisy 4. You still banish and imprison vs because we separate from your Antichristian estate and endevour to keep the faith and ordinance of Christ Yet you give out that we suffer more then we need that we are iustlie punished as ennemyes to the State as Schismaticks Hereticks seditious c. Another lye in hypocrisy 5. Finallie even the truths which you teach and professe what are they els in your estate but the sheeps clothing of your wolvish Hierarchy and Priesthood by meanes whereof you deceive and devoure the more Lo here a tast of your speaking lyes in hypocrisy and if you will also of your consciences burnt vvith an hote yron Besides these in your Church note also in your self in particular how even here you do sclaunder me and yet pretend that it is I which sclaunder you Neither sufficeth it you in this one place to do it once as I shewed before Pag. 149. But here againe you will needs double it that we might the better note this propertie in your self which yet you shame not falsely to lay vpon me And because you will not seem to want colour for it you pretend this that I say the words of your first Reply imported such onely to depart from the faith as fall from it totally To depart from the faith I say so as in that estate they cannot by the word of God be estemed true Christians Reason 7. Pag. 135. For this was the point which I proved and you denyed Now towching this matter the case is so verie plaine as I neither need nor will do anie more for your conviction therein but set downe your owne words as they were at first and then with a note concerning your dealing synce leave the iudgement thereof to the Reader when he shall have compared together the words of your Reply and of my Aunsvver Neither of which you love to keep vnto For your words then thus it was When against your Church I had proved by the Apostles testimonie that forasmuch as all such depart from the faith as forbid Mariage and Meats therefore also your Church so doth vvhich not only forbiddeth these things the true Ministery vvorship of God vvithall but also commaundeth a false c. You did then answer thus word for word The Popish forbidding of Mariage and of Meats if they vvere no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy ceremonies simply Neither do they make vs the Protestans to be such The Papists fall from Christ in other points namely The Papall supremacy c. These were your words then The other clauses which now you have annexed in the Margent and Reply it self though they help you no whit neither yet were they added synce you receyved my Answer as I noted before Pag. 141. Let the Reader mynd this And withall these two things 1. That now you note in the margent both “ here and in the Eight Reason following Pag. 136. that you think the vvord fundamentally fitter to be here vsed then the word totally And why fitter I pray you but because this word totally implyeth that directlie which I inferred therevpon in my Answer Pag. 136. c. 2. That whereas you did at first annexe a clause concerning the Apostles meaning that in these points they depart from the faith not absolutly and vvholy this also is so far from helping you as it maketh altogether against you howsoever you would perswade otherwise in this your latter Reply both in the beginning and end thereof Pag. 141. 142. Which will yet more fully appeare even to the most simple whensoever you shall answer the particular questiōs and obiectiōs which I propounded in my former Answer concerning the Papists and your selves For which
And “ afterward vpon the 16. of the Revelation Ibid. vpon Rev. 16.12 expounding the drying vp of the waters of Euphrates to be this That the welthy Popes possessioÌ„s and pleasurs of the Clergy their false feates once known are and shal be cleerly taken away from them He saith thus In England by the ♣ Marke by this of vvhat time estate he speaketh even of such vvhen the Gospell vvas preched the Monasteries suppressed c. Gospell preaching have many of these waters bene dried vp in the suppression of the monasteries prioryes couents and Friers houses yet are not all things brought vnto Christs cleare institution A syncere Christian order cannot yet be seene there And a great cause why For all is not yet dried vp there The Bishops reigne still in asmuch vaine glorious pompe with as many Heathnish observations as ever they did as cruelly harted and as bloody mynded are they yet as ever they were afore No mischief vnsought to hold in the waters Marke how Winchester Durham Yorke London and Lincolne worke let vs also adde Canterburie with such other pleasant disposed Euphratines But be of good confort and pray in the meane tyme. For the holy Ghost promiseth heer that they shall wither away with all that the heaveÌ„ly Father hath not plaÌ„ted All which generatioÌ„ will the Lords breath coÌ„sume c. And to speake also of others in former tymes Iohn Wickleff held †Actes and Mon. 5. edit pag. 414. b. That Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons Officialls Deanes Canons c. be disciples of Antichrist William Swinderby said * Ibid. pag. 431. b. that what Pope Cardinal Bishop Prelate or Priest in manner of living or teaching or Lavves making contrary to Christs living his Lavves or any other ground put in ruling of the Church of christ but by Christ and his Lavves is very Antichrist adversarie to Iesus Christ and his Apostles Sir Iohn Oldcastle Lord Cobham witnessed ′ Ibid. â—ag 518. a. b. that the Bishops Priests Prelates and Monkes are the body of that great Antichrist And that the possessions and Lordships of the Clergy are the venime of Iudas shed into the Church Iohn Claidon burnt in Smithfield professed ‡ Ibid. pag. 588. b. that the Archbishops and Bishops speaking indifferently are the seats of the beast Antichrist when he sitteth in them and reigneth above other people in the darke Caves of errors and heresies And that the Bishops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the beast that is Antichrist Finally * In his treatises called The obedience of a Christian man The practise of prel William Tindall and “ In his Preface before his Antithesis betvveen Christ the pope Iohn Frith published That Archbishops Lordb. Archdeacons Deanes Officials Parsons Vicars and the rest of that sort are the disciples of Antichrist yea very Antichrists themselves These are the speaches and testimonies of the Martyrs in former ages wherevnto divers other such like might be added But these may suffice for the matter in hand Now compare therewith the publique profession and practise of England even as it is by law at this day and see whether your owne proofes be not so many witnesses against your selves But if it were so that the reformed Churches vve our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme gave allowance of your present estate and Church coÌ„stitution what would this help you when as the vvord of God condemneth you as we have shewed in the Reasons aforsaid and defence thereof Wherevnto if you will still iustifie your estate we require direct answer from point to point and that from the Scriptures which only can stablish the conscience Furthermore that the truth it self and your estate may better appeare what it is as also that you may not turne away or obscure the truth by your shiftes and evasions as your manner is I will here propound a few questions concerning the points now in controversie desiring your plaine and syncere answer therevnto by the word of God as you will answer to him at that day The questions are these Seven questions conteining the vvhole controversy betvveen vs yet vnansvvered 1. Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last testament given vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices with their Callings Workes and Maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guidance and service of his Church to the end of the world or no 2. Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Helpers be those offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as aforesaid Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops Lordbishops Suffragans Deanes Prebendaries Cannons Petticanons Priests Deacons Archdeacons Doctors of divinitie Batchelers of divinitie Chaplens or Housepriests Commissaries Officialls Proctors Apparitors Parsons Vicars Curates Vagrant or Mercenarie preachers Churchwardens Side men Clerkes Sextons and the rest now had in the Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies be those Offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as is aforsaid or no 3. Whether the Calling and entrance into these Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid their Administration and Maintenance now had and retained in England be the manner of calling administration maintenance which Christ hath appoincted for the offices of his Church above named or no 4. Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world and the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of God and ioined togeather in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ And whether the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies of this Land be such or no 5. Whether the Sacraments being seales of righteousnes which is by faith may be administred to anie other but to the faithfull and their seed or in anie other ministery and manner then is appoincted by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession And whether they be not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies of England at this day 6. Whether the Book of Common prayer with the Feastes Fasts Holy dayes stinted prayers and Leiturgy prescribed therein and vsed in these Assemblies be the true worspip of God commaunded in his word or the devise and invention of man for Gods worship and service 7. Whether all people and Churches without exception be not bound in Religion only to receive and submit vnto that Ministery Worship order which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appoincted to his Church Or whether any may receive and ioine vnto another devised by man for the service of God And consequentlie whether they which ioine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministery worship and order of the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies can be assured by the word of God that they ioine to the former ordeined by Christ and not to the latter devised vy man even the man of sinne for the
far separate from vs. Now you hold otherwise then the truth in all the particulars †before rehearsed towching your Prelacy Priesthood Sacraments Book of common prayer Pag. 63. c. confusion of people c. Thus far therefore you graunt we may and ought to separate from you And further we do not at all For there is not anie truth you hold which we also hold not with you So then in expresse words you yeeld vs the cause And yet further you yeeld it againe in that you do not defend by the Scripture your Hierarchy worship doctrines Canons Articles Iniunctions c. received and ioined vnto by all in your Church How absurd then and vngodlie is your denyall of so manifest a truth And how distempered is your brayne that can not perceive so plaine a contradiction with your self Your two fould sence of the Apostles words is a silly fiction of your owne head without anie ground or proof at all If you will have vs think otherwise bring warrant for the particulars of your distinction from the book of God But I pittie you Mr Iacob For I see you are brought to a low ebbe Who knowes not that this is the very last refuge of all ennemyes of the truth when they are pressed with evidence of Scripture so as they can not avoid it then to faine distinctions and to cast about for the sence as if that were hard and obscure which in deed is most plaine and easy Look in Bellarmine Bilson Whitgift Bridges and whosoever els have written against the truth if their dealing be not such This then doth not aunswer the Argument but proveth it rather to be vnaunswerable Tim. 6.5 As for the words The Apostle saying from such separate thy self if now you would know from whom Himself telleth it as plaine as may be If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines c. from such separate thy self vers 3. But such is your case in particular As hath ben proved in your Prelacy and the other abominations of Antichrist yet taught and mainteyned among you Therefore are we bound by this rule of the Apostle to separate our selves from you Els should we aunswer it to God at that day Of your continuall vayne distinctions of fundamentally wholy presumptuously simply c. ynough is said alreadie in the handling of the for mer Reasons As also of Mr Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs Whom here you set before vs againe as coleworts not twise but ten tymes sodden Leave this vsage of them Mr Iacob for they have left you long synce See before Pag. 40.41 Next you tell vs we may ioyne with you and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them Prove this and you say somewhat But I doubt we shall find you as slow in proving as you are rash in speaking Mind but these particulars following which I will name for example Can we receive your Priesthood from the Prelates or execute it vnder them Can we ioyne to your Service book or anie part of your worship and Ministery Can we receive the word or Sacraments from your Ministers in that constitution Can we remaine members of your confused Assemblyes Can we stand subiect to your Prelates and their Courts Canons censures c. Can we I say do these or anie of them and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them In your next Reply Mr Iacob declare vs this riddle if you can And in the meane tyme I will attribute it to your distempered conceit that you do thus every foot forget and contradict your self and yet discerne it not But what will you say too if such as ioyne with you in anie part of your worship suppose it be the best become thereby partakers of your whole worship and constitution even of the worst things that are among you therein To make it plaine and certaine vnto you mynd these proofs In Israell †1 Cor. 10.18 they that did eate of the sacrifices as “ 2 Sam. 1.4.5 the people might were thereby partakers of the whole Iewish religion yea even of the altar Vnto which yet they might not come at all but the Priest onelie Lev. 1. chap. c. Numb 18.7 Luc. 1.9.10 In Corinth the Christians that abhorred Idols and Idolatry yet when after the sacrifices were offred * 1 Cor. 10 14-22 8.4.10 they sate but in the Idol Temples to eat of the meats that had ben sacrificed which in †1 Cor. 10.25.26.27 other places they might have done became thereby partakers of the whole Idolatrous wprship though they were not present at it but as they thought abhorred it In like maner they which connnunicate in anie part of your worship become thereby partakers and guiltie of the whole though it may be neither you nor they so think So false it is which here you give out that we may ioine with some of your worship and Ministery and yet towch no part of your Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give them allowance For the Papists to omit that you aunswer not what I obiected you see and graunt readily that they are no true Christians but very Antichrists c. Yet for your selves though your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people false doctrines c. be meerlie Popish and Antichristian you will not see and acknowledge it Take heed least when you see yet you wink with your eyes and though you vnderstand yet you harden your heart because you will not be converted and healed Esa 6.9.10 Act. 28.26.27 For the question between vs let the Reader iudge how I have proved it and how you have quitted your self and your Churches Where you say the points of false doctrine in your Church are most falsly laid to your charge all may see here againe you have an hard forehead to deny anie thing and yet are so sottish you can prove nothing But you say you list not meddle with them at this present I easily beleev you They are so pregnant against you as it is no marvell if you have no list to do it Otherwise you shew list ynough to medle with anie thing that you think may cary any show against vs. But you must mynd the point is not what you list but what you ought to meddle withall You have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches in the estate wherein now they stand Therefore must you aunswer aswell for the false doctrines as for the true mainteined in your Church Els would the Papists iustify their case against you well ynough For this cause then must you aunswer aswell for your Book of cōmon prayer and other your books of Articles Canons Iniunctions c. as for that book of Articles which was published in the yeare 1562. For they conteine the doctrine and
prosperitie in the world yet the godly notwithstanding must learne neither to fret at them nor to faint in themselues but alway to walk faithfullie in the truth and to waite patientlie on the Lord looking for the great harvest of the world At which tyme God will for ever free his people from them all both casting the wicked into a furnace of vnquenchable fyer and making the righteous to shine as the sunne in the kingdome of their Father Mat. 13 37-43 compared with ver 47-50 Rev. 2 20.-26 7 14-17 10.7 11 15-19 14 14-20 17-22 chap. and with the other Scriptures noted before Pag. 158. 159. 173. The second is that besides the false doctrines mentioned before Pag. 157. 158. 159. 160. your Church hath also manie mo Some whereof I have noted in * another Treatise A treatise of the Minist of Engl. pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. to which I refer you for them So as if your list and leysure will serve in your next Reply you may let vs have your defence of them also Or els provide Mr Iacob that you chaunge the Title of your book and call it not anie longer A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND MINISTERY OF ENGLAND Now to proceed there followeth next the comparison between you and the Iewes from whom Paul separated Act. 19.9 Act. 19. To which you can not replie a word to anie one thing I aunswered Onelie you bring some new exceptions but not anie of them all worth a rush You might aswell except that Paul was an Apostle and a Iew we not that the people he dealt withall were in Asia you in Europe they at Ephesus you at London c. Such pretences as they are verie common among you so are they most absurd and frivolous not worthy the hearing or anie refutation at all Onelie note that the very Papists themselves may likewise alledge against anie that witnes the truth vnto them yea and do they not dailie thus pretend as you do viz that they be infinitely many mo then Paul had there to do withall 2. That Paul was better able to convince them c. then any such are the whole Popish Church 3. That there be many learned among them which have many probable and seeming reasons c. Where you say there be some of you that have published some reasons for the Prelacy against vs and are vnanswered it is most false Name but one Reason if you can to which we have not given aunswer to the stopping of all your mouths But in deed Mr Iacob you and your fellowes have let the * the Prelates and their proctours insult over you Bancroft Bilson Sutcliff c. with book vpon book and yet aunswer not a word You that ere while cryed out so earnestlie against dumbe dogs are now become dumbe your selves not moving the tounge against anie that writeth for the Hierarchy and leitourgy of Antichrist retained among you But to leave this to your selves to be better mynded hereafter tell me now if it were anie thing to the purpose though that you say here were true By your owne confession the Reasons which are published against vs are but probable and seeming not true and vndoubted And this also seeming so but to you not to vs. What matter then though they were never aunswered by vs Where you aske What if these speak evill of that which we hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme We aske againe Do not the Papists also say so vnto you Yea and did not the Iewes think you say so vnto Paul Why then are you so partiall against vs But for vs it skils not what you or they think of our cause vnles you speak according to the Law and testimony of God which is far from you Let the Reader also note here the maner of your speach You say that which we hold for truth they hold to be errors schisme They say you as speaking of others not of your self You belike do not so hold it as they do but are perswaded it is truth and not error Why then do you not obey and practise it Why are you become our ennemy for bearing witnes vnto it Why are you so partiall against vs in it Towching the estate of the Iewes Church I shewed three reasons why the Apostles neither did nor might wholy separate from them at first Against which you are not able to open your mouth Pag. 161. Petitio principii whereof you speak is the summe of all your Replies Shew otherwise if you can Do you not everie where beg and no where prove that you are separated from the world set in the way of Christ free from the defection of Antichrist c. So your self are guiltie of that wherewith you charge me falslie all that you say being nothing els but to beg the question and deny the Conclusion As for your short writing about the cōparisō of your Ministery with Mariage I did answer it * above three yeares since But you have not yet replied againe neither I think will in hast In the yeare 1596. When you first acquainted me with the purpose of publishing these things you know besides other things then spoken of I did in particular desier you to publish that aunswer of myne with the rest Therefore you have done me the greater wrong both in leaving it vnprinted and much more in giving out that I have not aunswered you these whole three yeares together and vpward But I perceive you will have your book sutable one part with another and therefore you will end as you ‡ began that is Pag. 5. with lies and vntruths Of that which you annexe of the Iewes Church in Christs tyme and after and of separation from them and communion with them I have alreadie spoken sufficientlie Pag. 161. Neither can you with anie Reason denie or stand against anie thing I have there said as I noted before Tell vs yet I pray you when and how that full experience of obstinate and malitious resistance of the truth whereof you speak may be had and discerned in anie either Ministers or people For your selves you cannot deny but this is your case that you resist and refuse the truth many times and sundrie wayes witnessed vnto you that you rayle and speake evill both of it and of vs that professe it that you persist in the errors and defection of Antichrist that you bereave vs of our lives libertie goods countrie c. And all these because we will not runne with you to the same excesse of impietie Now seing this is the case as your self I think will not denie of your Prelates and manie other of your Priests and people and seing all the rest of you stand with them in one bodie and estate of a Church cleaving vnto them in the same way worship Ministerie c. therefore even in this behalfe can we not possiblie separate from some of you but we must needs
to the first accusation there You reason against people not capable of a Pastor And we speake of true Christians which are alwayes capable You do ill therfore in comparing this action to mariage betwene brother and sister who indeed can not marry Happely you may likelyer compare it to a couple that have lived both of them wantonly Afterwards they marrie togeather and this marriage it selfe they vse not soberly nor temperatly Howbeit for all this I professe these two are truly man and wife notwithstanding Now even so our Churches and Ministers c. Fr. Ioh. his Answer KNowing the question Mr Iacob you might well see if you were not blynd that this is directly vnto it And so in deed it is like the first Reason that is it sheweth the folly of your Comparison and is such as you can not aunswer True it is that we speak of people not capable of a Pastor that is of yours in your Church-constitution And if you speak as you say you do of true Christians which are alwayes capable then speak you not of your people or Assemblyes in your estate And so it is your self that fâ—â—ht with your shadow and towch not the question but still presume that which you should prove viz that standing in Antichristian bondage to the Prelates and their procedings yet notwithstanding you are by the word of God to be judged true Christians having the liberty and power given by Christ to his Church whereof he is the head Till you prove this we must needs think that the comparing of your chusing a Minister in your estate to a brother and sister or such like that can not lawfully marry togeather c. is good and pertinent Your owne comparing of it to a couple that have lived wantonly and afterwards marry together yet vse not their mariage soberly c. descryeth that your self see the wicked and vnlawfull estate of your Ministers and people as now they stand howsoever you labour to hide and excuse it as much as you can And besides if you would describe your estate as it is in deed you should compare it to such as both had and do still live wantonlie and wickedly in adultery and vncleannes whom God will judge Let all such therefore among you as feare God delay no longer but with speed forsake your adulterous wayes and turne vnto the Lord that by his grace you may be “ maryed to him in righteousnes and judgement in mercie and compassion Hos 2 19.2â— and not still run a whoring after your owne inventions and abominations of the man of sinne whom the Lord will destroy Rev. 17 1-6 2 Thes 2.3.4.8 Numb 15.39.40 Ier. 4.18 Chap. 6. The fift Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe Priests joyning of the parties doth not make them Man and wife at all but onely the parties mutuall consent But contrarily in the present ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ of England the Prelats ordinatioÌ„ maketh the Minister and not the peoples choyse at all H. Iacob his Reply THe second Proposition we here flatly deny It is answered in our last words against the 2. Reason Fr. Ioh. his Answer YOu have an hard forehead Mr Iacob that can flatly deny so cleare a truth But for proof thereof besides your Churches-constitution I cite your books of Articles CanoÌ„s IniunctioÌ„s Statutes togeather with the consent of your whole Church and your book of ordering Priests and Deacons c. All which are so many proofs of the second Proposition and witnesses of the truth which you shame not to deny Is it not your Churches expresse Law that no other be receyved for Ministers but such as are made Priests or Deacons by the Prelates Yea that every one must to this end have his Letters of Orders vnder the Prelates hand and seale that ordeined him Can anie among you though he have the consent of all your people be Parson or Vicar or as you speak one of your Pastors not having the Prelates ordination and institution On the contrarie having these of the Prelate is it not sufficient for him though all your people stand against him Yea must not all the people whether they will or not receive and joyne vnto his Ministery being by the Prelate so ordeined and instituted as aforesaid The truth hereof is so well knowen and yll practised through the whole land as it is straunge any man should have the face to deny it But what wil not Mr Iacob deny when he knoweth not what to aunswer and yet hath not an heart to yeeld to the truth It must needs be a weak and bad cause that can not otherwise be mainteined then by such impudent denyals Your Aunswer to the second Reason before is there taken away and proved to be both against your self and against the Law and constitution of your Church Mynd it better next tyme. Chap. 7. The Sixt Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF a woman consent to a man that is another womans husband they are not therefore Man and wife So if a people consent to a false Minister they are not therefore true Church and Minister H. Iacob his Reply THis is answered as before in the Fourth Reason It carrieth some likelyhood indeed and some reason against Pluralities but nothing any further Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer NEyther the fourth Reason nor this nor any other of them are yet answered Let others judge And now your self are driven to confesse that this hath both likelyhood and reason against your Pluralityes Which is in deed to yeeld vnto it For tell me if your Pluralitie-men have not as well as the rest among you both the some calling by the Prelates which your Church appointeth and like acceptance of your people who joyne vnto them and mainteine them as you alledged before Pag. 208. The ReasoÌ„ then hath waight not onely against your pluralists but against all your other Ministers too seing they have all of them one and the same false Ministery received from the Prelates and executed vnder them Vnto which you may adde that the Ministery of all among you is such as Christ never set in his Church whether you look at your Offices from the hyest Prelate to the lowest Priest or at your Entrance according to your Churches Canons and Book of ordinatioÌ„ or at your Ministration by your Book of common praier and other your Canons and Injunctions or finally at your maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. When you have well mynded these things you shall find this Argument reach a great deale further then to Pluralityes even to all the Ministers of your Church in your estate Make a tryal search the Testament of Christ throughout and if you can shew it to be otherwise If not give glorie to God and yeeld to the truth Chap. 8. The Seuenth Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson AS when a man and woman have consented each to other if the man do
the dead to make reconciliation for them thereby spoken of in the book of Machabees And according to your second sence of fundamentall that ‡ 2 Machab. 14.41.42 commending of vvilfull murther taught in the same book of Machabees Not to speak of the Magick in the “ Iob. 6.6 book of To bit for healing any that is troubled with a Divell or evill spirit by a perfume made of a fishes heart and liuer These sweet doctrines with other the like do those books affoord But it skils not so long as with a bold face notwithstanding you can beare it out and say still your errors are not fundamentall c. Is this your conscience Mr. Iacob Will you thus still plead for Baall But to proceed in the third place you speak of those words according to Christs ordinance Where first marke that these words in your Article are to be referred to all the particulars going before So as to maintaine your Argument you must proue your Assemblies to be so gathered the pure vvord so preached anh the Sacraments so administred among you as Christ hath ordeined Thus might you more perswade vs and defend your selues better in one half sheet of paper then in a thousand such frivolous pamphlets as you sparse abroad to no purpose at all except it be to lay open your owne nakednes so much the more Whereas I alledged that vvhen and vvhere the vvorde is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ this you say is false too Often have I heard you say so but never could I heare you proue it To help you therefore I will show you the way how to doe it if any such thing could be And that is thus first syncerely as before God to reckon vp all the offices of Ministery which your Church by Law enjoyeth and then to note the Scriptures which teach that Christ ordained those offices in his Church secondly to show the manner of entrance into your severall offices prescribed by Law and then to name the places of Scripture where such calling is appointed by Christ This you see is a plaine and ready way touching these two points to stablish the conscience and to confound your adversaries not with show of words but with substance of matter I hope it will do you some pleasure Mr. Iacob that I haue showed you so good a way All the thanks I aske for it is that you would walk vprightly in it Now if you list not take the paines or find the way all to hard for your Archbs Lordbs Archdeacons Parsons Vicars Stipendaries and the rest of your Priests and Deacons yet at least for your self show it in defence of your owne office and calling first when you were made Priest and Deacō by the Prelates and thē when you became an House-Priest in the countrey and since a Mercenary-Priest in the citty Now I heare your Lords the Prelates haue commaunded you silence and you as an obedient childe of such reverend Fathers do readily submit to their Antichristian authority Yet let this be no excuse to put of the clearing of the former matter but seeing you haue so much the more leasure do it the more soundly and speedily Doubtles it would give great light in this case Next you say your ordinarie Preachers are true Pastors as touching the substance of Pastorall calling but whom meane you by ordinary Preachers c. Your Prelates I remember are by Law your Ordinaries Doe you meane it of them your treatise shewes it not Tell vs then who they be of whom you speak 1. whether all or some onely of your Preachers 2. whether you have any extraordinarie Preachers that have some other office 3. what you judge of those that are not in the number of the ordinary Preachers you speak of whether they also be true Pastors 4. what you account according to the Scripture the substance of the Pastorall calling whereof you speak All these points you see must be cleared afore we can vnderstand what you speak or whereof you affirme So mysticall or rather in deed so fearefull and deceitfull is your manner of speach Touching the question what is substantiall in the Ministery if you put it over to me to declare as your manner is I have already showed my judgment and reasons in †A treatise of the Minist of the Churches of Engl. p. 83. 84. 85. another treatise Which you may either refute or approue your Ministery according to those particulars or if you can do neither of these yeeld to the truth against which you have so long strugled in vaine In vaine I say for proof whereof marke what followeth next in your Reply Your self confesse that even the Preachers for whome you plead have a wrong ordination from the Prelacy Thus your owne mouth M. Iacob is witnes against your self that al your labour is in vaine Shall I yet make it more plaine vnto you Marke then Your maine defence is from ‡ See before pag 3. and 6. the doctrine of your Church as it is publiquely professed and practised by Lavv. Now your Law admitteth no other ordination but that of the Prelacy And this your self here confesse is vvrong In what case now your Ministery standeth let others judge And take you heed you please not your self any longer in such vnrighteousnes The “ 2 The. 2.12 end thereof is fearefull But besides this estate of your Ministery you confesse here also for the body of your Church that you have a confusion of people that is in deed though you speak it not in word a spirituall Babylon For Babel is in English confusion Thus both for Ministery and people you give the cause having wearied your self in the defence of Babylon all in vaine Which is and will be the fruit of your and all other mens labours in this case So the * Ier. 51.58.64 Scripture hath foretold Your other writing ‡ See the next treatise follovving at the end of this touching the comparing of the condition of a Ministery vvith Mariage long since deliuered was also long since aunswered Vnto which I have not yet received any Reply not so much as words which is the most I look for from you at any time Where next you graunt it is Christs ordinance to haue a true Pastor to a faithfull people hold you there M. Iacob and you overthrow at once all your Churches and Ministery For you neither have proued neither ever will that so you have Begging of the question though you vse it never so often is nothing but words not any proof at all After this you come to that clause of your Article which requireth due administration of the Sacraments according to Christs ordinance First mynd that divers other particulars were related wherein you faile besides those you have here mentioned See them in my ‡ Before Pag 15. 16. 17. former aunswer Now if the corruptions of the
Antichristian Hierarchy and a popish ordering of Ministers strange from the vvord of God and the vse of all vvel reformed Churches in the vvorld And further Although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth comprised in the booke of God Then touching the Sacraments thus they write The Sacraments are vvickedly mangled and prophaned Also In the primitive Churches they administred the Sacrament simply as they received it from the Lord vve sinfully mixed vvith mans inventions and devises Yea they charge the Prelates that they doe superstitiously and vvickedly institute a nevv Sacrament vvhich is proper to Christ onely marking the child in the forehead vvith a Crosse in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ And of your book of coÌ„mon prayer according to which your Sacraments and other divine service is administred thus also they write we must needes say that this book is an vnperfit book culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse book full of all abominations To conclude withall thus they testifie concerning these things controverted betweene them and the Prelates Neyther is the controversy betvvixt them and vs as they vvould beare the vvorld in hand for a cap a tippet or a surplus but for greater matters concerning a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church according to the vvord Which things once established the other melt away of theÌ„selues Being once established say they Therefore yet they did not account they had them And whereof speak they All may see of a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church Now speak your self Mr. Iacob Do not these men testifie to your face that you have avouched a bold and impudent vntruth wilfully striving against the cleare light Yet I have cited but a few and those onely out of the Admonitions to the Parliament Out of which and the rest of their writings I might alledge a thousand mo to convince you herein But that would be too tedious And these I doubt not will cleare the point and suffice any that are indifferent and godly minded For your self I say no more but wish you had not verified the Orators saying He that once passeth the bounds of modestie becomes impudent out of measure Hitherto of the first Exception Chap. 5. The second Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforesayd Fran. Iohnson SEcondly tell vs whether you hold and professe Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other And if you do then shew vs how your practise agreeth with this profession H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 2. Excep TO this second Exception That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King I aunswere The Booke of Articles our Ministers now and Congregations generally do hold and professe the same our practise being answerable likewise therevnto euen as before time Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and such like with their Congregations did then viz. That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King and to be obeyed in his owne ordinances onely in no other This I say we generally professe and practise Hovvbeit this note vvith all vve hold Christs ordinance to be of tvvo sorts writteÌ„ or vnwritteÌ„ the first necessary the secoÌ„d arbitrary The first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the invvard opinion only such as these The doctrine of God his Nature his Persons his Properties of the Messias Christ Iesus of Iustification of Sanctification of the ResurrectioÌ„ c. Wherein standeth the †1 Cor. 3.12.13 foundation of saving faith All these must be in the vvritten vvord or els to be none of Christes The second touching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truely called and counted Christes ovvne also although particularly deuised and appointed by the Church vvhom Christ hath authorised therevnto euen as it shall be thought most fit and profitable for the preseÌ„t times places and persons such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies to be because they be not simply of the foundation neither written nor certen nor perpetuall but at the arbitrarie appointment of the Church and Magistrate and yet to be Christes ovvne neuerthelesse vvho hath left this libertie for the Church to vse Thus vve hold and thus vve practise and vve are persvvaded no Scripture to be against all this but rather for it I speak novv concerning our Ministers and Congregations generally that is our publique Church state If you say but there are divers amongst vs that thinke othervvise I aunsvver But this is the generall estate both of our Ministers and Churches hovvsoever one or tvvo amongst huÌ„dreths or thousands may thinke othervvise shevv the contrary if you can And our Churches they certenly must be deemed after their generall estate and constitution not as one or tvvo men thinke If you say this generall opinion and practise is an error Therfore they obey not Christs ordinances in truth herein though they thinke they do I aunsvver let it be so it is novv “ An error though not fundamentall the error of their iudgment as it vvas in Maister Cranmer Ridley c. Not pregnaunt rebellion and disobedience to Christ not a convicted or seared conscience so that their other “ 1 Cor. 3 1â—.15 truthes of the foundation are not frustrat nor Christ made to none effect in them And this is all our question whether they remaine Christians still for all these faultes yea or no. F. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Excep IN this Exception we demaunded first if you held Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other then how your practise agreeth with this profession One would have thought it had ben needfull if you could to have cleared this poinct by the Scriptures and from thence to have proved your Ministery worship Church gouernement c. which are called jn question to be no other then the Lord Iesus Christ that Prophet Priest and King of his Church hath in his Testament given and appointed therevnto But this you have not done And let the Reader note it But what then do you say First you tell vs That touching this poinct your profession and practise now is so as before time it vvas vvith M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer and their CoÌ„gregations But what of this Can the persons or age of these whom you name nay can any person or ages preiudice the truth Were not they subiect to error at all Or must their errors bind vs Did not Iohn Hus that champion of Christ and others also of the Martyrs in former times say and heare Masse even to their dying day See their historyes in the Acts and Monuments not seeing the abominations thereof And did not divers of them acknowledge some the Popes calling and Supremacy some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some