hys Prophetes often and ernestly commaundeth the King c. To wryte out the booke of the Lawe for hym selfe Ye bring this place to proue Conf. 303 that temporal Princes haue as much to doe with Religion as Bishoppes and Priestes For the Kinge saye you muste write out the Lawe Deut. 17. But whie leaue ye out that whiche foloweth accipiens exemplar takynge the Copie of the Priestes of the Trybe of Leuie By which woordes it is clearlie perceyued that it is not in the Kynges handes to meddle with Scriptures but as he receaueth them of his betters in that authoritie the Priestes King Ioas bridled the riot and arrogancie of the Priestes Apol. We finde no such wordes in the text Conf. 307 4. Reg. 12. Iosue receiued coÌ„maundements Apolo specially touching religion We haue readen the whole Chapiter Iosue 1. Confut. .305 and we find no suche specialities there but onelie that he shoulde passe ouer Iordane And diuide the lande of Promise and be of good cumforte and strength with other lyke woordes all to the Temporall Gouernement of the â—eople but of Religion Sacrifice Praying for the people expounding the Law c. no one sentence Yea rather as it appereth in the first setting of him in his office the scripture saieth expressly 〈◊〉 any thing be to be done for this Iosue Eleazar the Priest shal aske counsel 〈◊〉 the Lorde Nu 27. At his worde vndoubtedly at the Priests he shal goe furth and come in c. Which of the two then 〈◊〉 nerer to God aÌ„d worthier by his office He that speaketh himselfe with God or he that heareth God his word by any interpretatour He which geaueth the commaundement or he which must obey it Doe no more so with the scriptures aÌ„d if none shal let you to make your own sense vpon them yet neuer take so much vpon you to put in the text it self which is not of the Scripture And further consider whether this be not to adde and take awaie from the Scripture to make that of the plural nuÌ„ber which is of the singular only To suppresse those wordes which being put in doe dissolue the knoâ— of the question To put that in whiche is not at al in the text To alleage sayinges that can not be found And to misconstrue sentences that are founde And then when you haue considered all this conferre therewith that which ye finde in the Apocalipse of S. Iohn that If any man adde vnto these things Apo vl God shal lay vpon him the plagues that are written in this booke And if anie man diminishe of the wordes of the booke of this prophecy God shal take his part out of the booke of life and out of the holy Citie and from these things which are writteÌ„ in this booke The 7. Chapiter conteining the flat lyes of the Apologie There haue ben wittely procured by the Bishop of Rome certaine persons of eloquence enough Apolog. not vnlcarned neither which should put their helpe to his cause now almost desperate NAme the Pope which hath procured them Confut. 9 Name the Persone which haue ben procured and ye shal either confesse your faultes or stand gyltie for two lyes Proue also that he wylely procured ani meÌ„ to help his cause because this word wylely maketh your lye aÌ„d slauÌ„der more greeuous For either you meane that he did it in dâ—de and that he would not be sene to doe it either that he did it boldly and manifestly but yet vsed a witty and subtil meane vnto it ConcerniÌ„g the first he neded not to be ashamed to defend his cause He might boldly without reproch choose any of the lerned aÌ„d eloqueÌ„t Catholiks for that purpose For the faith which the whole Churche opeÌ„ly coÌ„fesseth â–ª what dishonesty at al is it to coÌ„maund aloud that the best lerned shuld declare it and by declaring of it coÌ„meÌ„d it that wheÌ„ iust cause is geueÌ„ of it it mai be knoweÌ„ for a truth sufficieÌ„tly pued ConcerniÌ„g the second it were a small part of policy to labour by a fancy to perswade the whole world in a falsitie Princes desirous to restrain the gospel sought many wayes Apolog. but preuailed nothing now almost the whole world doth begyn to opeÌ„ their eies to behold yâ— light What place hath your gospel in Spain Conf. 1â— What place in Italy What successe hath your gospel in France WheÌ„ Lady Marie was once proclaimed Queene how preuailed your preachiÌ„g Did ye not flee beyond sea into free Cities And why into those more thaÌ„ into ani other but because ye preuaile not with Princes but such as cal you to their fauour of whoÌ„ yet ther are so few and so weak in al ChristeÌ„dom that in the rekning they make a litle somme And now say you the whole world almost doth begyn to open their eyes A worshipful begining after xvâ— yearis But why say ye not without almost that al the whole world begiÌ„neth to opeÌ„ their eyes You haue a coÌ„science I trow in making a lye and therfore you add almost How much theÌ„ lacketh I pray you If Loâ—aÌ„ Paris Bonony Padua SalamaÌ„ca CoÌ„pluâ—uÌ„ and other great Vniuersities but smal â—ortioÌ„s of the whole if these were lightened by your gospel would ye put out your almost What meane ye by this almoste Perchance all is ouercomed with you sauing Rome itselfe and the small Cities about it Nay haue ye not greate and Princely states as of Florence Vrbine Genua Ferrara Millaine Venice Treuers Mentes Colone Salisburg and the Catholike Cantones And sundrie Countries as Bauarie Sauoy Burgundie Loraine Brabrant Flaunders Holland Artoys Henaut Friseland Guelderland Cleueland Prussia Carinthia And many Ilandes as Sicilia Corsica Sardinia Maltha and the ZelaÌ„ds And many kingdoms as Naples FraÌ„ce Spaine Pole Bohemie Hungary and Portugale and the Empire it selfe which see well enough how darke your gospel is But no matter for these small peeces What say you then to the new Indians which alone are greater than all whom we haue rekened If you lacke but them alone haue you all the world all most No This is so great a lye that â— might turne it backeward and say the whole world almost doth defie your Gospel All theyr trauayle hath in a manner come to naught Apolog. How say you to the late general CouÌ„cel Conf. 15 â–ª which had so woÌ„derful good successe and which is so executed in Rome it selfe that not only the Bishopes but Cardinals also are sent to theyr cures and goe obediently vnto them No bodye driuing it forwarde and without anie wordly helpe King Harry the eygth then is no body with you the Duke of Saxonie Lantgraue of Hesse King Edwarde the sixth the Villaines of Boheme the Hugonites of France c. Al these then are no body On the other syde our cause againste the wil of Emperours If Charles alone had not geuen more to clemencie which ouercommeth most of all noble personages
plaied at dice neuer so much The Popes would needes make 〈◊〉 the realme triâ—utary to them Apolog. Ergo 〈◊〉 most iustly haue forsaken them It is not for Diuines to alleage anâ— such temporal cause Confut. â—49 of mony mater 〈◊〉 their defence in departiÌ„g froÌ„ the churcâ—â— For seeing that the Popes Authority â—â—meth froÌ„ God what discharge of my 〈◊〉 is that to me if he do more than 〈◊〉 shuld by right and Conscience Do noâ— temporal princes somtimes oppresse theiâ— Subiectes and yet continew in their place and authority aboue their subiectsâ— Your Argument therefore and fact is naught And if the argument were true yet haue you no occasion to depart from the See of Rome vnto which in Quene Maries time you were reconciled considering that no tribute was required of you no not so much as the restitution of the Abbey landes The Second Chapter conteining certaine Absurdities of the English Apologie They be not mad at this day Apolog. so many free cities so many Kings so many Princes which haue falleÌ„ away from the seate of Rome and haue rather ioyned themselues to the Gospell of Christ. HOW thinke you then Confut. .16 by coÌ„mon reason May any Protestant say that AL free Cities AL Kinges AL Princes and AL Christen men and womeÌ„ froÌ„ the highest to the lowest were mad in these last ix hundred yeares in which yow disdaine and yet confesse the Pope to haue ben obeied of all Christendome and him selfe in so saying be nothing madde Or can you reproue your Aduersaries if they be so vnmannerly and hasty in their termes as to call yours so many free Cities c. madde where your selues iudge that all your Forefathers for hundred of yeares together haue bene madde when they all folowe â–ª with one consent Papistrie If it were a synne in the Heluetianâ— to deliuer their own countrie from foreâ— gouernment Apolog. specially wheÌ„ they were 〈◊〉 proudly and tyranniously oppressed yet to burthen vs with other mens faultes or them with the faultes of theire forefathers it is against all right and reason Why then do you obiect against the Catholiques the euill liues and deedes of Popes Confut. 177. Cardinalles Monkes Friers Priestes which may be founde in anie sorte or condition of men after some continuance of tyme and age And why tel you abiding in Englande tales vppon Italy Spayne or other countries of Aloisios Casios Diasios and others to burthen thereby the knowen and auncient Church In tymes past Apolog. where the first Christians our forefathers in making their prayers to God did tourne them selues towardes the Easte there were that sayed they worshipped the Sunne and reckened it as God And you Confut. .191 to proue your selues the sweete Sonnes and exacte folowers of Antiquitie haue altered the olde maner and custom of the Catholike Church by charginge your Ministers to praye towardes the sowth and that in the chiefest tyme and place of all your deuotion and Religion If you knew whether to turne your selues after the putting awaye of the olde faith and ceremonies thereof why chose you the south rather than the East And why remembred ye not the first Christians vsage Except notwithstanding the remembrance of it you regarded not what they had don and practised How absurdly then cal you them the first Christians and your forefathers whom ye disdain or be ashamed to folow in the maner of their praying That old Father Augustine denyeth it to be leefull for a monke to spende his tyme slouthfully Apolog. and vnder pretensed holinesse to liue all vpon others And who so thus liueth an olde father Apollonius likeneth him to a theefe See the pity which these men take of the old Fathers Confut. 239. because their sayinges are not regarded and see the pityful absurdity in which themselues are taken whiles they would seeme to alowe the old Fathers S. Augustine liketh not the idlenes of Monkes but ydlenes put away did he not alow the order of them His booke is De opere Monachorum of the labour of Monkes prouing that none of them must so thinke hym selfe addicted to the seruice of God in praying reading or in spirituall exercises that he should not sette his handes to corporal labour And he maketh it not a case of necessitie that euerie Monke must labour but he impugneth theyr sayinges which made a necessitie of it not to labour wyth the bodie for theyr lyuing but to serue God and man by the labour of mynd only as in praying preaching and such like Nowe therefore if S. Augustine would haue had the very Order it selfe and profession of Monkes destroyed he should haue made short and saied not that such monks as wold hold the opinioÌ„ that they should not labour bodily ought to be sette therevnto but simplie and plainly he would haue concluded that all Munkerie should be taken away And then how could he make a whole Booke De opere Monachorum of the labour of Monkes except he would find some what where nothing is and build a house without labourers But you whom the idlenes of Monkes offendeth and the neglecting of the old Fathers orders shew to vs I pray you your refourmed Monasteries Let Heretikes shevv their monasteries And if your factes haue declared before and yet hytherto your rayling tongues can testifie that ye hate the verie Order and Rule of Monkes nor would abide a laboriouse and a vertuous Monke in your companie how vnsensiblie doe you confesse the olde Fathers to haue spoken againste idle Monkes whereby they signifie no abhomination to be in the Order it selfe your selues allwayes so mockingly and spitefully handeling not distinctly idle Monkes but without all addition Monkes As maye appeare by Iohn Foxes no litle booke of Actes and MonumeÌ„ts to name one for all and by your great muse in the next sentence folowing these words of which I speake where you wote not whether to name them droues or heardes of Monks as though no other title might be geuen vnto them besides that which is proper for brute beastes Concerning the old Father Apollonius if idle Monkes be theeues what call you them which doe robb and spoile not only the idle but the laborious and holy Monkes And robbe them not of their house land and goodes only but of their fame and estimation and robbe againe not only the Monkes but the iust and true owners of such goodes as were bestowed vpon Monasteries But put the case al Monks had bene theeues He that robbeth a theefe is he not him selfe a theefe And if by stelth a true mans landes be taken from him should it not returne in conscience vnto him againe if truth and Iustice were sought for and not gaine or priuate lust How well therefore your Procedinges agree with truth and honestie Apolog. lette it be iudged by the spoyle of Monkes and Monasteries The old Councell at Carthage commaunded nothing to be readde in Christ hys Congregation
would haue had him to surrender the Empire And taking his Father prisoner he committed hym to straight custodie without anie motion of the Pope therevnto as with whome also he was at Variance Then as touching the Shearing or thrusting him into A Moâ—asterie or famishing of Henrie the fourth lette hym that made these shamefull lyes shewe his Authour and defende hym selfe Who Apolog. so ilfauouredlie and monstrouslie put the Emperour Frederikes necke vnder hys feete and as thoughe that were not suffyciente added further thys Texte out of the Psalmes Thou shalt goe vppon the Adder and Cockatrice and shalt tread the Lyon and Dragon vnder thy feete Who this should be Conf. 188 your selues can not tell whiche are the onelie mainteiners of the tale For sometymes ye laie it to Innocentius the thyrde sometymes to Innocentius the eyght sometymes to Alexander the thyrde And the fact being so strainge and singular that it coulde not be but notorious yet ye haue so litle certeintie thereof that ye knowe not who should haue done it But the trueth is no graue writer maketh any mention of such behauiour of the Pope The Emperour Theodosius 〈◊〉 as Socraâ—es sayth did not only sit emongs the Bishopes but also ordered the whole arguiâ—g of the cause Here you speake of sitting 〈…〉 as though Thâ—odâ—sius had then ben at some General Councel You speake also of ordering the whole arguing of the cause as though him selfe had ben a moderatour of some disputation The plaine storie is Hist. 〈◊〉 9 ca. 19 Theodosius conâ—erred familiarly in his owne palace with the Bishope of Constantinople howe his people might be brought to an vnitie in faith And when the heretikes refused one good way which was to be tried by the testimonies of Auncient Fathers he went an other waie to worke with theÌ„ whiche was that eche of them should bring furthe in writing that which he had to say for his faith Which being don the Emperour read ouer theyr writings aÌ„d reiected the ArriaÌ„s MacedoniaÌ„s and Eunomians heresies and embraced and commended the iudgement of the Nicene Councel touching the consubstantiality of God the Sonne with his Father So that this historie serueth nothing to the mater of a General Councel nor proueth that an Emperour may sit there as Iudge emong the Bishops nor that Theodosius did vpon his owne heade and as Supreme Gouernour that which Socrates here reporteth of him but that he folowed the Councel of his Bishope Nectarius and the former decrees of the Nicene Councel Iustinian put doun from theyr Papal Throne two Popes Apolog. Syluerius and Vigilius notwithstaÌ„ding thei were Peters successours and Christes Uicars No Conf. 3. it was not Iustinian but his Ladie Theodora which was a great mainteiner of heretikes and when women theyr husbandes being alyue be so ferueÌ„t in sprite that they must haue such Popes as please them selues no wounder if Peters Successours be shamefullie handeled Charles the greate being Emperour held a prouincial Councel in Germanie Apolog. for putting awaye Images contrary to the second Councel at Nice This is so false Confut. 327 that the contrarie is most true For whereas the heretikes named Imagebreakers Abbas Vrsper Anselm Ryd PeÌ„cerus Carion Pantalâ—o had holden a CouÌ„cel at Constantinople for abrogating of Images directly against this impietie of theyrs Pope Adrian and Charles the greate held an other Councell at Frankeford in Germanie So muche it lacketh that Charles the greate should be a fauourer of Imagebreakers The fourth Chapiter conteinyng the lies made vpon the Auncient Fathers and other VVriters S. Augustin Apolog. wheÌ„ he disputed against PetiliaÌ„ an heretik of the side of the Donatistes let not these words Aug. de vnitate Eccl. c 30 quod he be heard betwen vs I say or you say let vs rather speake in this wise thus sayth the Lord there let vs seeke the Church there let vs boult out the cause THe question betwene S. Augustine aÌ„d the Donatistes was this Conf. 29. wher the Church should be Now to proue that the Church was not with the Catholiks the Donatistes were busie alwaies in rehersing how the Catholikes had burned the holie bokes aÌ„d had offred incense to Idols and had persequuted InnoceÌ„tes like as the protestaÌ„tes in these daies wheÌ„ the questioÌ„ is of the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome thei vse to make a long tale how such a Pope was a NecromaÌ„cer and such a one a leacheroâ—s man and some other proude and ambitious Now although S. Augustine mighâ— and did also in sundry places say truelyâ— that the obiections of the Donatisteâ— were false Augu. de vnit Eccles ca. 2. IdeÌ„ lib. 2. coÌ„t epist. petil c. 8. and though he might brinâ— furth against them also greater examples of their faults yet considering thaâ— such oiections taken out of the euill life of the one side or the other doe not perteine to the question proponed And seeing that altercation and strife only waâ— mainteined thereby whiles eche partâ— would say â–ª the other lied and would noâ— ceasse to tell what they could one of thâ— other being not credited yet one of thâ— other S. Augustine therefore not desirous to chide but earnest to proue thâ— Churche to be on his side vseth thesâ— wordes De vnit Eccl. c. â— Let vs not heare This I saie or This thou saiest but let vs heare this saieth our Lord â–ª After which wordes these folowe whiche the Apologiâ— should not haue omitted Truly ther bâ— extant our Lordes bookes the authoritie of which we both do agree with al we both beleue we both serue and obey There let vs seeke the Church there vs boult out our cause For the Church it self to proue it selfe by her owne wordes is not conuenient And to credit her at the reporte and coÌ„meÌ„dation of a baser aÌ„d vnworthier witnes then her self is very dishonorable It remaineth therefore that her cause be examined by the Scriptures as whiche haue so great authority and are so generally receiued And truly it is exceading wel prouided of God that in theyr seueral causes the Church sâ—ould declare the scriptures and the scriptures the church And so wheÌ„ any maÌ„ beleueth the church and striueth with me vpon a text of the scripture I would say vnto him let vs haue no more these words I saie or you say but let vs heare rather this saieth the Church On the other side when one beleueth the scriptures as heretikes thinke they do and would reason with me about the Church where it should be I would answer Let not these wordes be hearâ— among vs I say or you say but let vs heare This saith the Scripture Therefore in this principall question betwene the Catholikes and the Donatists which was where the Church should be the best waye was only to appeale to Scriptures Againe the Donatistes admitteâ— the Scriptures but other thinges which S. Augustine alleaged out of laufull recordes either of the
Ecclesiasticall or the Temporall Court to encounter them withal they did not belieue And so I say and thou sayest went to and fro betwene them without anie conclusion or profite To driue therefore the mater to some Issue let vs heare no more saieth he I saie or thou sayest but this sayeth our Lorde his bookes we both belieue we both obey there let vs seeke the Church Now in other Kyndes of question as of fasting receiuing the SacrameÌ„ts keping of holy dayes and other traditions S. Augustine wold neuer bind vs to Scripture onlie him selfe saying of these and the like in his Epistle ad Ianuarium August â— epist. 116. ad â—anuarium What so euer the whole Church thorough the worlde dothe kepe thereof to dispute it is a most insolent madnes Likewise also towarde such kynde of Aduersaries as woulde be tried hy testimonies of olde Fathers togeather with Scriptures or without expresse Scripture he would neuer charge vs to vse these wordes onelie This saieth our Lorde but well would haue bene contented that we should saie â–ª this saieth Cyprian Ambrose Basile c. him selfe speakinge of Auncient Fathers before and in his tyme after this fasshion Quod credunt Contra IulianuÌ„ PelagianuÌ„ lib. 1. ca. 2. credo that whiche they beleue I beleue that whiche they say I say c. Therefore ye haue abused very muche your Reader and S. Augustine bothe making the one to thinke the other to testifie that we should not fight against Heretikes but with expresse Scripture onelie Fulgentius ad Thrasimundum saith Apolog. that Christ thoâ—gh he be absent from vs concerning his manhode yet is euer present with vs concerning his Godhead The forme of a seruant is one thing Confut. 3â— and manhood is an other The forme perteineth to shape and figure which couereth our substance and maketh it visible the manhood perteineth to the inwarde nature and is only intelligible The first is not graunted nor taught of the Catholikes that Christ is with vs now in earth after the forme of a seruant The second yet they confesse and belieue that he is with vs really in his manhood The first is Fulgentius true sayeng to the king Thrasimund The second is your deprauing of Fulgentius in face of the worlde Sozomenus saieth of Spiridion Apolog. and Nazianzene saieth of his owne Father that a good and diligent Bishoppe doth serue in the ministery neuer the worse for that he is maried but rather the better and with more hablenes to doe good It will neuer I feare be better with you Confut. 76. but alwaies worse and worse Would ye make Gregorie Nazianzene contrarie to the Apostle And S. Paule so expresselie pronouncyng that he which hath a wyfe is carefull for the thinges of the world 1. Cor. 7. and is diuided thinke you that any Auncient Father or writer whose testimonie your selfe doe trust were likely to say that a Bishop dothe serue the better in the ministery for that he is maried I am glad ye geue credit to Sozomenus and Nazianzene vsing them for witnesses that we may see whether ye wil regard their owne very wordes and crie them mercy for abusiug them Sozomenus saith thus speaking of SpiridioÌ„ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 1. c. â—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This Spiridion waâ— an husband man hauyng wyfe anâ— chyldren but he was not therefore the worse to Godward How thinke you then doth he praise Mariage Doth he saie He serued God the better and wyth more hablenes by reason thereof Doth he not rather note it as a rare and a singular grace in him that hauing such occasions of diuidyng and distracting his mind he neuerthelesse was nothing abated in his diligence and attention towardes God Nazianzene likewyse speaketh of S. Basiles Fathers perfect life in mariage with A but yet saying Although he put himself in bondes of mariage yet he liued so therein as he was letted no whyt therefore from the attaining of perfect vertue and folowing of wisedome As who should say it commeth most times so to passe that when students or holy men are maried they looke but seldome on their bookes but wait vpon the busines of the world yet was it otherwyse with Basiles Father For he although he put himself in bonds of mariage yet he was no whit letted therefore c. In which words he coÌ„mendeth his vertue and geueth no exaÌ„ple to vnmaried Priests that if they wil be furthered to perfectioÌ„ they should not be without a bedfelow nomore thaÌ„ he which should report of an other that he sitteth at a table ful of delicats and yet neuer surfeiteth vpon them that proue that it is a right waye to temperance alwaies to be at many and fine dishes Whereas contrariwise in all things that are delectable vnto the senses and hurtfull by excesse vnto morall vertues the safest way is to flee from occasions of euill vntil by longe custome an habite be obteined in the vertue And then as it is an argument of greate perfection to liue with a woman and nothing to be hindred in deuotion by her so it is so rare a vertue and needelesse thoughe it be in a man to be practised that as it may sometimes come to passe that one is not the worse yet there was neuer yet any man so blind and vnsensible which would thinke it to be a preferment toward perfection to be at bed and at borde with a woman The more you haue then to answer for which haue fathered such a sense on S. Gregory Nazianzene S. Hierome Al these things saith he which without the testimony of the Scriptures Apolog. are holdeÌ„ as deliuered from the Apostles be throughly smitten doune by the sword of Gods worde He saith not generally al those things Conf. 30 oiÌ„a but In â—rinâ—uÌ„ cap. Aggaei Sed alia that is and other thinges also And he saith not which are holden asseruÌ„tur but which they find and fâ—ncie meaning heretikes of whom onely he speaketh in that place And therefore he maketh not a generall rule against Traditions but a special prouision against the deceits of heretikes It was ryghtly said by Pius the second a bishop of Rome Apolog that he sawe many causes why wiues should be taken away from Priests but many moe and more weighty causes why they ought to be restored to them againe His wordes Conf. â—0 as Platina reporteth are these that mariage hath bene takeÌ„ froÌ„ Priestes with great reason And that it semeth it were to be restored again with greater Note it semeth not it ought and note greater reaâ—on and not manie moe and more weyghtie And if he had so ernestly spoken as you suppose yet dothe he not allowe the mariage of priestes whiche he confesseth to haue bene taken away for greate cause but so muche he seemeth to be greaued with the loosenes of theÌ„ in his time that he thought the causes why they might be permited to
ready to diminsh the numbre of Ceremonies that the greatest papist in the world would not aske more fauor in the questioÌ„ aÌ„d cause of theÌ„ First if the Scripture doth alow anie order or fashioÌ„ it is not vaine If the whole Church hath generally receiued ani it is not vaine If it be but a particular Ceremony of one couÌ„trie and be not agaiÌ„st the faith or good maners it is not vaine Yea if anie thing be in it which helpeth to amendement of life it is not vaine By so many waies and for so many causes a ceremony maie wel continue as ye shal finde in that verie epistle of S. Augustin Epi. 119. c. 18. 19. And had you the face so to alleage this holy Doctours complaining of ceremonies as though he would haue as few as you What Sacrament haue you about which ye doe occupie oile What thinke you of the fast of lent What of Alleluia betwixt Easter and Witsontide What vse haue you of any Octaues Cap. 7. 15. 18. Yet of these Ceremonies he maketh mentioÌ„ in the foresaied Epistle and reckoneth that they are to be vsed and regarded Gregory c. if the Church saieth he shall depend vppon one man Apolog. it will at once fal doune to the ground Ye belie him shamfully he hath no such words at al. Conf. 203 Yet the protestaÌ„t may think this impossible that you should haue no more regarde of your honestye Let him seeke then if he be learned and iudge by his owne senses whether any such proposition is ther to be found But is there not a like vnto it Ye as so like as Rome is to Constantinople or Gregorie S. Peters successour to Nestorius of Constantinople an heretike For if a man should seeke for his life to find in that epistle but some resemblance of that which the Apology reporteth he findeth no more but this which I shal declare for th'vnlerned sake Iohn Bishope of Constantinople affected the title of Vniuersal Bishope S. Gregorie then Pope of Rome coÌ„plaineth thereof to Mauritius the Emperour declaring good causes aÌ„d reasons why such presumptioÌ„ should not be suffred Emong other he maketh this argument Lib. 4. epist. 3â— Surely we haue knoweÌ„ manie Prelats of the Church of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople to haue falleÌ„ into the goulfe of heresie and to haue ben not only heretiks but archeheretikes also Nowe for example he nameth Nestorius and Macedonius then bringeth he in therevpon this conclusion If therefore in that church vndoubtedly of Constantinople anie pul vnto himself that name of Vniuersal Bishope ergo which hath ben the iudgement of all good men the whole church which God forbid falleth froÌ„ her state wheÌ„ he falleth which is called Vniuersall An excellent argument vndoubtedly For if the only or Vniuersall Bishope should be at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople that see hauing no priuilege of coÌ„tinuing stil in the right faith as appereth by the archeheretikes which sate ther and al the world being bound to obey the Vniuersal Bishope this one absurditie grauÌ„ted a thousand would folow and that one Bishoppe erring all the whole Church should go a straie Loe this is al that may seme to geue any occasioÌ„ of reporting that which the Apologie hath attributed to S. Gregorie And wher find we here that if the church depeÌ„d vpon one maÌ„ â–ª it must at once fal doune to the ground Wil they yet defend theyr lying Or dare they yet stil abuse the old fathers â—s the Church aÌ„d that Church al one in coÌ„cluding Is depeÌ„ding vpon one man and that man al a like The successor of S. Peter and Bishop in that chaire in which neuer yet was fouÌ„d any archeheretike to set furth naughty doctrin is he al one with a Bishope of ConstaÌ„tinople â–ª which neither succedeth any Apostle and hath bene a defender of heresies let vs see now therfore whether you wil coÌ„fesse your errour in mistaking S. Gregorie Or mainteine your impudencie in misusing of him The bishâ—ps sayth Bernard who now haue yâ— charge of Gods church Apolog. ar not teachers but deceauers they are not feders but begilers thei are not prelats but pilates These words spake Bernard of yâ— B. who nameth him self the highest Bishop of al of yâ— other Bishops likwise which then had the place of gouernement How then Confut. Did S. Bernard forsake al papistrie and abandon the Pope because of those faâ—ltes which he fouÌ„d If he did why taried he in his moÌ„kes cote vnto his death If he did not what vnwise meÌ„ be you to for sake the Church for euil maners sake But coÌ„sider further WhoÌ„ called he deceauers â–ª begâ—â—ers pilats Al the whole order of Bishopes and gouernoures of the Church froÌ„ the Pope dounward Or spake he of some certain only If he noted but some certain aÌ„d â—heÌ„ worthely those other some which were not infected might wel preserue the state of the Church in truth of maners and doctrine that ye need not to feare an vtter destruction 〈◊〉 it and so through wretched foly depart out of it If he spake generally of al then wil I coÌ„fesse that ye are not so much to be blamed for your departing from that Church nor for anie your applieyng of S. Bernardes Authorie to that purpose But because I am sure this is false therefore I charge you and blame you How proue I this I proue it by those very bookes in which as you saie the foresaid wordes against the Pope and Bishopes are For concerning Eugenius him selfe he saieth in the third boke after much complaint or reproufe made of the euil maners of the Court of Rome Haec ad te Berna de CoÌ„s lib â–ª 3 noÌ„ de te scribo I writ this vnto thee not of thee And immediatly he declareth by example how Eugenius refused bagges of monie which came out of Germany and condemned a greate riche bisshop by likelyhode notwithstaÌ„ding his mony And how he gaue of his own vnto an other poore bisshop to geue vnto the officers in the Court least the bisshop should seeme niggish and vncourteous if he should haue nothing rewarded them Now Doth it greaue thee to heare this And I ê™ S. Bernard doe tell it so muche the more gladly by how much thou hearest it the more greauously The Pope theâ— him selfe was none of those deceauers begilers or pilates whom you mention Furth then were al the Cardinalles and Bishops deceiuers c. No neither al they as you may reade it proued in the fourth boke of that worke by the exaÌ„ples of two great Legats The one was Cardinal Martine Cardinal Martin which being sent legate into Dacia a countrie ful of gold and siluer returned yet so poore that for lacke of mony and horses he coulde scarse reach vnto Florence The Bishope of which place gaue him an horse without mention making of any mater to be done for it Yet the legat aÌ„d Cardinal Martin was 〈◊〉 soner at Rome but the bishop of Florence
came also thither And seeking the fauâ—â— of his frinds in a certain cause of his owâ— at length he coÌ„meth to Cardinal Martin Yea sayth he Decepisti me Nesciebâ—tibi imminere negotiuÌ„ tolle equuÌ„ tuuÌ„â— ecce in stabulo est you haue deceued me I knew not ye had any sute in haÌ„d Take your horse to you loe yonder he is in the stable This is one and he I truste no deceauer or Pilate An other Cardinal Gauâ—rid is Gaudfridus Bishope of Cartres which many yeres together was at his own charges Embassadour and legat froÌ„ the Pope in the costs of Gascoigne Of whoÌ„ he telleth that ther was a sturgeoÌ„ brought vnto him by a certain priest but I wil not take him sayd the Cardinall except I pay for him Againe a Ladie of the towne where he lodged brought vnto him for deuotioÌ„ and good wil three treen disshes with a towel he behâ—ld theÌ„ he praised theÌ„ but in any case he would not take them And at both these tymes S. Bernard was present And saieth herevpoÌ„ vnto Eugenius O that we might haue store of such meÌ„ geueÌ„ vnto vs as thes were whoÌ„ I brefly haue spokeÌ„ of If therefore the Pope him selfe was good and some Cardinalles and Bishopes were holie men how can you withoâ— impudencie drawe S. Bernard to such 〈◊〉 sense as thoughe he should condemâ—â— the whole See and Church of Romeâ— And if as I saied before you thinke him not to speake generally what helpeth it your cause in departing from the Church to proue that some Prelates be Pilats Secondly I might wel and truely say that S. Bernard speaketh against the maners of the Court of Rome and not against the faith of the Church of Rome And though he should name the Pope for his euill behauiour which he doth not a Pilate yet concerning his Authoritie and office he geueth vnto him all the titles of excellencie that are found in the Scriptures from Abel to Christ. Affirming besides him to be the shepheard not only of shâ—pe but of all other Shepheardes also â–ª and Others to haue bene called to take parte of the cure but hym to haue fulnes of power with other such wordes more of like sense Thirdly I aunswere he neuer spake so vnreuerentlie of the Pope in all hys workes And that the testimony which you alleage is not in the bookes ad Eugenium The old Father Epiphanius saieth Apolog. it is an horrible wickednes Epiph. and a sinne not to be suffred Haere 61. for any man to set vp any picture of Christ him selfe See how these felowes caÌ„ amplifie and â—et furth a lie Confut. â—35 Epiphanius they thinke â—aketh for theÌ„ and therfore they dresse â—im in their own colours Ye find not in hiÌ„â—either these greauous and mightie terâ—es horrible wickednes and Synne â—ot to be suffred Neither these precise â—onclusions that any man shal not set â—p anie picture Neither this aggrauaâ—ing additioÌ„ of Christ him self He speaâ—eth quietly and he speaketh not geneâ—ally but against a certaine kind of Imaâ—es or honor done to them as appeareth by the words istiusmodi vela such kinâ— of veiles And he prescribeth nothinâ— against the Image of our Sauiour Christâ— If ye wil not leaue this place but proâ—â— that it maketh against Images Pluckâ—â— out first these lies and repaire the testimonie making it neither better neither worse then Epiphanius doth permit you and then shal you be otherwise answered The old fathers Origen Chriysosâ—â— exhort yâ— people to reade the scriptures Apolog. to bye them bookes to reason at home betwixt theÌ„selues of diuine maters wiâ—es with their husbaÌ„ds parents with their childreÌ„ These men condeÌ„ne yâ— scriptures as deade â—lemeÌ„ts And as much as eueâ— they may barre the people from them Ye ioyne these two Fathers togeather as though they both confirmed your lyes Confut. 236. But Origene neither speaketh of byeing bookes Ho. 9. in Leuit ca. â—16 nsither of reasoning at home 〈◊〉 the scriptures but of comiÌ„g to church aÌ„â— heariÌ„g the scriptures and of thinking afterwardes at home vpon the keping of them in mynde and folâ—wing them Then as concerning S. Chrysostome he speaketh agaynst suche as neglected the reading of Scriptures and thought this to he a sufficient excuse for them that they were no Monkes Ho. 2. in Matth. as who shuld saâ—e we haue wife children and household with other things besides to thinke vpon and therefore it is not our vocation to looke in the lawe of God and by that to amende our liues He speaketh likewise against other which loued to haue faier and trym books of the Gospel for ostentation sake not to reade them and profit by them Of which sort ther may be found at this preseÌ„t som in the world which liuing loosly and regarding their soules health slenderly cary yet the testameÌ„t or some parte thereof bouÌ„d vp in goldeÌ„ forel and hang it about their necks like a Iewel But as for the biyng of Scriptures he spaketh it by occasioÌ„ oÌ„ly in reprouiÌ„g such as had books in their cupbords aÌ„d no vnderstaÌ„ding or sense of them in their mind For after he had saied Hom. 3â— in loan This hauing of bookes coÌ„meth of the Iewish ambition and craking vnto whom the coÌ„maundementes were geuen in letters and vnto vs not so but in the tables of our hart which are of fleash least he shuld sem to derogate somwhat hereby vnto the written Scriptures he addeth yet I do not forbid it to gette books yea rather I pray you most ernestly get them but so that we maie repere often in our minde both the letters and sence the of them He was not therefore so careful of it that euery man shoulde bye the scripture but this he studied for that euery man should be diligeÌ„t in bearing away of the scriptures readen â–ª or preached in the open church Proue ye now that S. Chrysostome exhorted all and singular of his people to bye them bookes especially in the vulgar tounge And iudge ye whether he had so little discretion to moâ—e al therevnto which verie few could bring to passe the raritie and pryce of the written bookes being considered Nowe as concerning the other lie that wiues at home with theyr husbandes or children with theyr parentes should reason betwixt themselues of diuine maters either I vnderstand not your englishe or els ye abuse S. Chrysostom most shamefully For if ye meane that al that reasoniÌ„g which you imagin signifieth no more but that the father shuld instruct his sonne aÌ„d the wife geue eare to her husbandes good counsel then surely you must pardoÌ„ me I neuer vnderstood this much before that reasoning of diuine maters should haue so litle question in it But if reasoning betwixt parties doth importe an argueing to aÌ„d fro with obiections solutions replies resolutions diuises suppositioÌ„s c. And if reasoning of diuine maters doth signifie the questioÌ„ proponed not to be of so smal
not neede But because the world is now come to that Infirmity aÌ„d curiositie that maters must be defended against al obiections of heretikes and brought againe vnto examination after they haue ben already determined and beleued therefore hath the charitie and wisedom of the Popeâ— stoode to the charges of calling a general Councell which facte of his doth not proue that he may erre which the holy Ghost wil not suffer for his presence sake in the Church but that he doth so reasonably and discreetly order those maters that shal concerne our Faith that he wil not erre as much as mans wit can prouide but haue also the Aduise Consent and Iudgement of other which are of most authoritie and lerning in the Church of Christ. Let the Bishope of Rome alone Apol. be aboue al Councells Ergo one parte is greater than the whole No Syr Confut. 284 not parte greater than the whole but parte shall be greater than parte and one member worthier than an other The bodie and heade togeather make the whole and take away the head ye take away a parte of the whole Ye can not therfore make a diuisioÌ„ of the church into the whole and the heade but into the head and the reast of the partes of the whole And then it is no absurditie at all that the heade should be greater in price and honor than al the other members beside Athanasius denied to come to yâ— councell at Cesarea Apolog. Athanasius went away from the CouÌ„cell at Syrmium IhoÌ„ Chrysostom kept himself at home although the Emperour commaunded him to come to the Arrians Councel Maximus and Paphnutius depaâ—ted from the Councell at Palestine The Bishops of the East would not come to the Councel of Heretiks named Patropassians Paulinus and many others moe refused to come to the CouÌ„cell at Milane Ergo we are not to be blamed for not comming to the Councel at Trent You mutiply examples al in vaine Confut. 293. aÌ„d there is no proportion at al betwene the holy Fathers constancy and your disobedieÌ„ce For they refused to be at the commaundent of heretikes and their Fauourers but you contempne the lawfull Authority of Catholike Bishops If ye could truly say it that the Fathers gathered of late at Trent were ArriaÌ„s PatropassiaÌ„s or heretikes of any sort then might you laufully vse the examples of Athanasius Chrysostome Maximus Paphnutius and other But for as much as it is impossible that they could be heretikes which held no strainge and singular opinioÌ„s contrary to the Catholike coÌ„mon and receiued faith in the whole world you haue no excuse left for your pride aÌ„d disobedieÌ„ce That Cathalike Bishopes haue refused to come to the conspiracies of heretikes ye neuer neede to haue proued it But if ye can shew by any example that euer any good man yet did refuse to come to a CouÌ„cel lawfully called by the Pope then may that example make for you but there is none suche to be founde None of vs can be suffered to sit in yâ— Councell Apolog. The Popes Legats Patriarchs Archebishopes Bishopes and Abbates do conspire togeather sit alone by them selues and haue power alone to geue theyâ— consente And they wil haue al theyr opinions to be iudged at the will and pleasure of the Pope Princes and Embassadoures are but vsed as mocking stockes Ergo leâ—â—e not the wise and good maruaile if we haue those rather to sit at home then to iourney to the Conucel The Apostles neuer made such argumentes Confut. 294 And you if ye had in dede the holy ghost and if ye were chosen vesselles to cary the name of God abrode ye would neuer so childishely either without causâ— feare or if ye had a iust cause complainâ— and whine that you shal not sit whenâ— you come to the general Councel or that then ye shal haue a number of Bishopeâ— and Abbates against you or that al shalâ— be referred to the Pope or that they wilâ— mocke you if ye goe thither For none of all these thinges should haue letted you from telling your opinionâ— and for the rest you should haue referred al to the will of God what successe your words should haue had But either ye be so prowde that except you maie be of the chiefest you wil not come into the presence of reuereÌ„d and lerned Fathers or ye be so fainteharted that except the Prince be on your syde ye dare non trust the warrant of a safeconduct A Christian Prince hath the charge of both tables committed vnto him Apolog. Ergo not only temporal maters but Ecclesiastical also pertaine to his office He hath the Charge of both tables so far foorth Confut. .303 that he must defend the external geauing of due honour vnto God and outwarde exhibiting of charitie towards our neighbour But to offer vp Sacrifice to minister Sacramentes or to iudge of Murder Adultery Theft or any thing that is coÌ„mitted only in hart hath he any power Euery man seeth that worldly Princes meddle not with suche maters And therefore theyr charge is baser and narower thaÌ„ the charge of Bishopes and Priestes whom God hath appointed to be his Officers in the inward Courte of Conscience The prophets of God coÌ„maunded the Kinges to breake doune altars of Idols Apolog. and to write out the books of yâ— Law for them selues Ergo Ecclesiastical maters perteine to the iurisdiction of Kinges You see Confut. 303. then that the Princes are not Supreme but that betwene them and God the Prophete is the greater Officer For the Prophets coÌ„mauÌ„d the priÌ„ces obey The Prophets geaue charge the princes doe execute it The prophetes declare what an Idol is the Princes destroie it according to the prophetes instruction Moyses â— Ciuile Magistrate recieued from God Apolog. and delyuered to the people al the order for religion and sacrifices and gaue Aaron a sore rebuke for making the golden calfe Ergo ecclesiastical matters perteyne to the office of princes This example agreeth not Confut. 05. because Moyses was not a Ciuile magistrate only but also a priest And he was made also by God the supreme gouernour and captaine ouer al the number of the children of Israel were they temporal or Spiritual persons in figure of Christ. If ye can shew that our Sauiour left any such power vnto any king in the world and that his Apostles were not immediatly next vnto hiÌ„ the chiefe gouernors of his church then shal that temporal King haue the power whach ye labour to geaue him Iosue receyued commaundementes towchinge Religion and the seruice of God Apolog. Ergo Ecclesiasticall maters perteyne to theyr Iurisdiction He receyued commaundement Confut. 305. to meditate in the boke of the law which God had geauen by Moyses and to keepe it But this was so sar of from a Supremacy in maters Ecclesiasticall that it is expressly sayd in the boke of Numeri Cap. 17. that Eleazar the
prieste should aske councell of God if any thing were to be done for Iosue and that Iosue should goe furth and come in at the word of Eleazar And this one answer serueth all the Examples which ye bring in of King Dauid Salomon Ezechias Iosaphat Iosias Ioas Iehu By which ye wold proue that they had iurisdiction in maters Ecclesiastical For they dyd nomore then than Christian princes doe now euen those princes that are obedieÌ„t to the See of Rome For they buyld Churches and finde Singingmen and Priestes to keepe dayly seruyce they geaue Bishoprikes they put Bishoppes byside theyr offices as Queene Marie did put CraÌ„mer anâ— Ridly aÌ„d tweÌ„ty thiÌ„gs moe they do abouâ— maters of religioÌ„ not as Supreme Gouernours but as deuout and faithfull Princes being glad to doe for the Churche whatsoeuer the Spiritual heades thereof shal moue them vnto and being ready to defend the faith of the Churche as they shall learne it of their Bishops It remaineth then that you shew not that the kinges in the olde lawe did set furth the Seruice of God displace Priests commauÌ„ded the temple to be clensed destroyed Idols c but that they did these thiÌ„gs by their absolute power without askiÌ„g aduise leue or instructioÌ„ of the priests Constantine called the Councell at Nice Apolog. Theodosius the Councel at Constantinople Theodosius the second the CouÌ„cel at Ephesus Martian the Councel at ChalcedoÌ„ Ergo Ecclesiastical matters perteine to the Office of Princes They called these Councels Confut. .308 not by vertue of their supreme autority but by the asseÌ„t of the B. of Rome And so Princes haue to do with the maters of the Churche at the second hand only The Emperour ConstaÌ„tine gaue in yâ— CouÌ„cel of Nice his aduise to yâ— Bishops Apolog. how it was best to trie out the mater by yâ— Apostles Prophets writings Ergo he bare a great stroke with his Authority in their consultation As great stroke as he bare Confut. .313 he strake not the head of the Church froÌ„ the body nor made himself Supreme Euseâ—ius in vita Constant. lib. 3. Theodor. lib. 1. c. 7. But that ye may vnderstaÌ„d how litle he toke vpoÌ„ hiÌ„ he came in last into the Councel with a smal coÌ„pany and sate not doune before he had desired the Bishops to permit it and then also he sate but in a low chaire As for geuing of aduise how things were best to be done it is lauful for the least â—rier Abbate or Doctor in a Councel to do the like and yet euery Frier that speaketh in a general CouÌ„cel is not supreme head of the Church nor of the vocation and Authoritie to define or geaue sentence on any Canon In the third Councel at Conâ—â—antinople ConstaÌ„tine a Ciuile Magistrate did not only â—itte among the Bishoppes but did also subscribe with them In the Councel called Arausicanum Apolog. the Princes Embassadours gaue their consent and put to their handes Ergo ecclesâ—iastical matters pertein to Princes So likewise to subscribe vnto the Decrees of a Councel Confut. 316. and to geue their coÌ„sent vnto matters there determined it is and may be ê‘ermitted vnto meane layemen but to define determine decree and geue Authority vnto a Canon it is neither for Embassadours nor Ciuile Magistrates nor Emperours of the whole world but for Bisshops only whom God hath apointed to gouerne his Church Gods grace is promised to a good mind Apolog to one that fereeth him Ergo not to the Sees and Successours This would folow Confut. 334. if God vsed to geue but one kinde of Grace such as maketh the receauer good But now there is a Grace of faith hope and charitie and it is not an euil minde that hath it There is the grace of preaching working of miracles healing of diseases c. and he may be euill that hath it To be a Kinge it is by the grace of God and that grace continued vntil a certaine time in the Seed and Succession of Dauid yet were not all they of a good mynde that were kinges of Iuda By which it appeareth that your Argument is false and that the grace of Authoritie and continuance is geauen not only vnto the good but the euill that folow in the race and succession Peter when he was at Rome Apol. neuer taught the Gospell neuer fed the flocke c. sate him doune onely in his castle in S. Ihon Laterane aud poynted out with his fynger the spaces of Purgatorie gaue orders to say priuate Masses c. consecâ—ated wyth hys holie breath oyle wax wolle belles c. mainteyned warres set Princes togeather at variance c. Ergo Peter did all thinges like vnto the Pope Of whose deuising is this Argument Confut. 335. Vndoubtedly no Catholike hath the 〈◊〉 to make it Do the ProtestaÌ„ts then speakâ—â—â—â— al this of S. Peter in sad ernest ' â— thinkeâ—â— not so euill of them although they can beâ—â—â— sometimes desperat How then Doe they speake it but in sport and dalie only with theyr Aduersaries The cause is to great to vse in so large wise such mockery Set him vpon the Stage with a furd cap and a motly cote he wil plaie the vice without a vizarde and make gaie sporte to the cumpanie Men say Apolog. that one Cobilon a Lacedemonian when he was sent Embassador to treate of a league found by chaunce them of the Courte playing at dice he retourned straytewayes home againe leauing his message vndone For he sayd it should be a greate reproche to his Common wealth to make a league with dycers Ergo it should be a greate blot to our name to returne to the Pope CabiloÌ„ might be parchaunce a wisemaÌ„ in his own generation but in these daies Confutation 337. he should not be much better than an impatient or Solemne Fole For to play at 〈◊〉 it is not absolutely and in all tymes â—laces and persons euil And to let that â—vndone vpon priuate coÌ„ceipt and iudgeâ—eÌ„t which is put vpoÌ„ any maÌ„ by coÌ„mon coÌ„sent aÌ„d authoritie it is not in most cases alowable But such now is the ê‘fection of the new Gospellers they wil not be at any league with dycers or euill lyuers aÌ„d in theyr coÌ„gregatioÌ„s aÌ„d fraternities ther is I trow no blot of infamy to be feared With what countenance then loke they wheÌ„ they come into the Courtes of Princes or noblemen Do they fin dno dycing â—here and no euil lyuing I haue so good opinion of these mens holines that if the Pope with al his Cardinalles would take themselues to Wyues so to cal harlotes aÌ„d in other things doe accordingly to the forme of the new Gospel he should not only haue a league made with him but also be mainteined in his supremacy which he hath in Christendome And the Cobiâ—on that should be sent Embassadour for the purpose wold neuer returne again â—â—â—uinge his message vndon though 〈◊〉