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book_n	add_v	holy_a	scripture_n	1,651	5	5.5616	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93887	Zerubbabel to Sanballat and Tobiah: or, The first part of the duply to M.S. alias Two brethren. By Adam Steuart. Whereunto is added, the judgement of the reformed churches of France, Switzerland, Geneva, &c. concerning independants, who condemne them with an unanimous consent. Published by David Steuart. March 17. 1644. Imprimatur Ja: Cranford.; Duply to M.S. alias Two brethren. Part 1	Steuart, Adam.; Steuart, David, fl. 1644.	1645 (1645)	Wing S5494; Thomason E274_14; ESTC R209896	100,836	110

yet promiseth an Answer M.S. his first Answer is that the Five Ministers ayme at no separation but as their Brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction A.S. If it be only from Prelaticall coaction wherefore separate they themselves from their Brethren the Scots their Sacramentall Communion and the Scots from theirs if they separate not themselves from us wherefore are they suitors for a Toleration or approbation of their Religion since ours is already tolerated and approved as appeareth in the French Italian and Spanish Churches in this Kingdome Neither are you compelled to be Actors in any thing against your Consciences as your Brethren were by Bishops M.S. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme Defects yet saith he those Defects are but pretended A.S. Our meaning is to reforme Defects if any there be such as we acknowledge to be in manners as amongst you also or in the administration of Discipline as may be amongst us all But as for any Defects in the principall parts of our Ecclesiasticall Discipline we see none as yet that we travell not to reforme but believe such as hee objects us in them to be rather pretended then Reall Neither can we or shall we judge them to be any other thing but pretended till he make it appeare that they are Reall Will He that we beleeve them to be Reall because that he only sayes so but it is not the first untruth has falne from his pen. M.S. He would have the Five Ministers quit the Assembly A.S. This M.S. supposes that this last Proposition crosseth my Supposition But they may stay in the Church to reforme Abuses if there be any really as it is pretended by the Independents and live out of the Assembly as many others who are no wayes their Inferiours Neither said I that I wished them to be out of the Assembly only I propounded a question whether in consequence of the publishing of their Apologie they should not resolve themselves to quit the Assembly Now courtcous and conscientious Reader be thou judge I pray thee whether this man hath answered any of my Questions yea or not which are all the main points here to be debated Quest I. Whether it had not been honester and fairer dealing to have added the Author and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke then to have omitted them I Affirme it 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity especially in these Times 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world that it is not a Libel 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book if he be either learned or honest and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it and bring discredit unto it especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added 5. Because when it is suppressed and the Book a Libell it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author to censure and punish him condignly according to his demerits 6. Because the Holy Writers did so and if their Names be omitted in some Books we know not whether it was with their consent or whether they did not put to their names howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture or peradventure it was because they were not the Authors but as it were Gods Secretaries or Scribes for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books buy them and afterward find nothing worth their money 8. The adding of the name of the Author and of the Licencer with the Licence will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books So that this being confidered this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book Quest II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid and Answer to the Libell c. I Susteine the first part of the Question and deny the second As for the first it is evident 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word as we shall see hereafter 2. Because that Answer is nothing else but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches 3. Because it containeth nothing contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England or any other true Reformed Churches only it hath some new Sectaries for Enemies 4. Because the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Reformed Churches that were ruled by that Discipline and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments 5. Because that a Bishop and the rest of the Commissioners from England at the Synod of Dordrecht approved that Discipline in the name of the Church of England 6. Because in England it selfe it hath been evermore approved by the King and Parliament who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches in this very City of London and sundry other parts of this Kingdome 7. At this present Episcopall Government being put down it standeth by Law approved both by State and Church as conforme unto Gods word 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments 1. Because it maintaineth a Discipline that is not conforme to Gods word which hath not one word of particular Churches Independent one from another of particular Church-Covenants distinct from that of Grace of not Baptizing Christians Children of not admission of Faithfull men and women who are without Scandall unto the Lords Table c. 2. Because the Discipline it maintaineth is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed yea of all Christian Churches 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England as they confesse themselves 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Communion with any Church ruled by that Discipline 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament 7. It hath never been put up here nor standeth here Legally as the other And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced and the other could not be Licenced QUEST 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods before the Synods Determination M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod To the contrary I conceive that herein I have done nothing amisse But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe 1. That there are two sorts of Questions some that are already determined in Gods Word and his Church also Others that are not 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority as Lawes Statutes Ecclesiasticall Canons c. and others particular proceeding

shall shew hereafter that ye are not Separatistae nominales but reales If the Church lie now gasping as you complain who I pray can be the cause of it but your selves that vex and torment her more then Papists Arminians Anabaptists Socinians and all other Sects and Heresies besides ever yet did P. 2. sect 4. Thou art a strange Divine that consultest Astrologues about the Horoscope of my Book But to that I say no more but what the Prophet saith Stand up with thine enchantments and with the multitude of thy sorceries if so be thou maiest prevaile Let now the Astrologers the Star-gazers the monethly Prognesticators stand up Jer. 10.12 I am not dismayed at the signe of the heaven for the Heathen are dismaid at them I tell thee with all thy Chaldeans and Sorcerers I feare you not all Christians feare not such Prophets God hath raised us up a Prophet like to Moyses whom we must heare and Moyses tels thee that they who doe these things that thou doest are an abomination to the Lord Deut. 18.10 11 12 13 14 15. After this sect 6. in the same pag. he giveth out his judgement upon the title of my Book but without the least judgement or reason at all P. 3. Sect. 1. He accuseth me to be too peremptorious in determining the question and so anticipating the judgement of the Assembly Answ 1. If I anticipate so I must tell him does he with the rest of the Sectaries of his Faction in determining the question for his party 2. particular mens Determinations cannot anticipate the judgement of the Assembly or take it out of their hands as most ignorantly hee pretends for particular mens private Determinations are evermore subject to publike Determination 3. Neither is it necessary that when ever Sects or Heresies creepe into the Church wee should presently all begin to suspend our judgements in things revealed in Gods word and already determined by the Church as this is as we shall God willing hereafter make appeare and so stand ever gaping after new Decisions I should doe my selfe wrong to answer the 2 Sect. Which conteineth only his unreasonable judgement against me who say nothing of Independents but what I prove by evident Reasons And the judgements of Protestant Churches abroad here printed will decide this Controversie But what he saith from the rest of the third page till page the 6. Sect 3. it shall be an swered in a particular question P. 4. Sect. 2. A.S. his Observations are like a man with a Pole-ax knocking a man on the head to kill a fly lighting on his heard Answ What this man meaneth by his Pole-axe I know not I strike at no mans head If I strike at any fly it must be some Wasp and then either a Hornet that stingeth to death the Horse of whose dung it is bred or a Wasp with which Tertullian not unfitly compareth Sectaries faciunt favos vespae faciunt Ecclesias Marcionite quid ni Donatista P. 6. Sect. 3. He propounds himselfe for a pattern to me in writing But hee must excuse me if I tell him plainly I hold him not worthy the imitating neither may I ever so much reverence any of his party as to quit my Christian liberty to refute their extravagancies where ever I meet with them especially when they appeare to be of so pernicious a consequence As for the title of Most revenend that I gave them I learn't it in part of themselves that they are reverend and since their reverence is independent what else could I take it for but most reverend that acknowledge no superiour Reverence Sect. 5. Howsoever of his liberality hee bestow the lie on me I must pray him permit me to return it home again for what I said before by his good leave I must say again it is most true that in your particular Opinions ye differ from all true reformed Churches at least so far forth as they are distinguished from Conventicles and Schismaticall Assemblies And as for your Reformed Churches in England viz. Independent from which ye differ not 1. they are invisible 2. they are Schismaticall 3. and erected without the Civill Magistrates consent and such Churches your selves hold unlawfull turbulent Schismaticall and punishable in N.E. And if in N.E. wherefore I pray not in old England also Sect. 6. And as for that his conjecture that I wil object some Manuscripts and Master Parkers letter from N.E. and another from Zeland it is his mistake for it was not my intention to dispute in a liminary Epistle only I say of Master Parker since he puts me upon this subject that if he were at his liberty in O.E. as he is in servitude under that oppression of N.E. he might happily say more then he will be allowed to say there P. 7. Sect. 1. It is also a great mistake in him to think that their Discipline can be abused to ill it cannot be abused but to good P. 8 Sect. 1. It is an abominable accusation and a black calumnie that hee layeth upon the Reformed Churches of Zeland viz. that there are in their letters many high passages seeming so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy that it justifieth that of the Apologie 2. for that letter speaketh not at all of the Magistrate or Magistracy of England 2. It speaketh only of their own wherof this little Independent Minister is too bold to thinke himselfe a competent Judge Neither will they depend of him howbeit he should a spire to be as Independent as Lucifer himself 3. They speak not of all their Magistrates but of some and especially of those who joyned with the Arminian Sect The Arminians crying up their authority in the Spirituall government of the Church and these unworthy Magistrates crying down the Doctrine 4. Because the Government of Holland and the Magistrates power there is not like to that of England the one being Monarchicall or rather mixt of Monarchicall Aristocraticall and Democraticall as it is commonly holden here and the other Aristocraticall or mixt of Aristocracy and Democracy and therefore the rules of the one Government cannot be well drawn in consequence for the other 5. This M.S. cognomento Calumniator in this matter should have done well and gone more honestly to work if he had cited those high passages so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy but he shewes himselfe more cunning then so to discover his calumny 6. As for his sententious conclusion of this point with Verbum sapienti sat est a man very well affectioned to the Zelanders in reading of it added in the margin of the Book sed non insipientis nedum decipientis It is as great pitty so good men should have harboured so ill and so unthankfull Guests P. 9. Sect. 3. He speaketh as if he were a Prophet sent to reforme all the Churches of the world so did Bur Jesu and bringeth us in I know not what a Master Davenport like another Salomon in the way of N.E. casting out his

new proverbiall Sentences viz. a. Classicall Presbyterie is 13. Bishops O witty and weighty Sentence if any man understood it worthy only such an Ecclesiastes as himself to be Register of What praise merite ye not both Vunlo tu dignus ille In the the end of this sect he giveth out his metaphorical judgement to grinde the Idol of half Reformation to powder and yet professeth that he will not or which a man would rather beleeve cannot tell what it is O how ridiculous a Judge is this without judgement Only this I will say that 1. if it be Episcopacy as this new Master of Sentences C.C. say 2. if an Idol that must be grinded into powder as M.S. saith and 3. if Episcopal Government must be extirpated as the Covenant saith and as we all in swearing the Covenant say sure then the Scots are come in upon very worshipfull termes to assist the Independents viz. upon this Condition that when they have fought for them they shall extirpate them and grinde them all into powder Is not this a very quick Independent conception and yet notwithstanding all this which is worthy the noting these good men in taking the Covenant have sworn the preservation of the reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government i.e. according to their judgement good Prelacy or Episcopacy jura perjura And here like a little Pope he telleth us that all Churches generally purtly by Tyranny and partly by security are grown so corrupt that to apologise for a through Reformation seems to reprove all and so all will be offended None it seems shall be reformed unless they become Independent so that they and they alone may vaunt themselves Et nos ergo manum ferulae subduximus nos Consilium dedimus Syllae To his 4. Sect. I maintain that Independents dissent from all Christian Churches since no Christian Church holds it selfe Independent but yours and whether they be any Churches that are not Protestant we shall see in a particular Question howbeit it be an untruth that ever I said that Papists were Christian Churches He and his fellows doe well to dissent from Papists but not in dependency His Observations are false where he sayes that we run to the Popish markes of visibility succession and universality and I have refuted this calumny in my Answer to C.C. When I argue from visibility and number I doe as the Apostle doth in bringing many visible Saints as a great number of witnesses of our Doctrine Heb. 11. and not as Essentiall markes of our Church P. 10. Because I say that the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers are but men as I am and that they may erre out of this hee inferreth that I thinke I have more knowledge then they since they are not yet condemned by the Assembly Answ I deny the consequence for by the same reason every particular man that condemneth Anabaptisme and other Schismes and Heresies before they be condemned by the Synod should thinke themselves learneder then they are But is it such a crime to say that they are but men that may erre I pray you sir if ye be any other thing then men what are ye if ye be men who pretend ye cannot erre you must either be Sancta Mater Ecclesia Romana or els lead by Anabaptisticall Enthusiasines as with an ignis fatuus And pretend ye that by reason of your great learning ye are priviledged from errour I tell thee man that amongst the very Angels Lucifer and amongst men Adam in the state of integrity and since the Fall Achitophel and Salomon erred and yet every one of them were learneder then ye all I hope there is no man maketh the least question but the meanest of them was learneder then any of you yea then you all in cumulo And therefore vaunt not so much of your learning No learning but visio beatifica which ye want can priviledge a man from errour according to Schoole-men P. 11. Sect. 1. I have answer'd it is no Popish Argument when I oppose so great a number of Witnesses unto him for then the Apostles Argument Heb. 11. should be Popish what is thy mopish argument I know not for I never read mopish in the Index of my Bible nor amongst the termes of Divinity or Philosophy whether it be an injury or not I know not and care as little 2. It is an untruth to say that I would conjure him to yeeld any thing upon plurality of voyces for I have learned of some of his own party that they are no wayes minded upon plurality of voyces to submit themselves unto the venerable Assembly of Divines neither can it well agree with the independent Spirits of their Divinity that the spirits of Prophets be subject to Prophets They will that all be subject unto them Sect. 4. Neither are his 4. silly Arguments which are but one drawn up ab Exemplo of notorious Sinners Malignants Papists and Prelates who argue from the multitude of those of their way to the verity and equity of it any thing to the purpose First we cite but a number of reformed Divines and reformed Churches which hee acknowledges with us to be such so does not he of his Examples 2. And if I have erred in this wherefore did the Apologists shew me the way in citing the Examples of those of N.E. c 3. My Argument concludeth ad Hominem since they argue so 4. I ground not my selfe on this Argument alone but on a great number of others in my book whereuuto hee answers not nor can answer P. 17. Sect. 1. What he tells us of the number of their Churches they are but Churches of Sectaries and Schismaticall since they have cut off themselves and are separated from all Protestant Churches union and communion as I have often-times declared and I speak not of such Churches Sect. 3. He sayes that W.R. condemns the Apologists for agreeing with the Churches of N.E. and A.S. condemneth them for dissenting from them He should have done well to have coted the places of our Books and to have told at the same time in what points we condemne them in their consent and dissent for W.R. may condemne them for their consent in one thing and A.S. for their dissent in another If I condemne them for any dissent I may safely swear that either I have read it in their Books or heard it of Independents themselves What I say p. 17. sect 4. I say it again in my conscience that I verily beleeve that Independency cannot but prove the root of all Schismes and Heresies yea I adde that by consequence it is much worse then Popery And all this I have sufficiently proved in my Book whereunto he answers nothing And whereas he sayes I would do well to confer with some of them I write against I had thought I had sufficiently declared my readiness in that kind formerly and I again now declare unto you Sir in particular that I