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book_n add_v holy_a scripture_n 1,651 5 5.5616 4 false
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A69535 The grand debate between the most reverend bishops and the Presbyterian divines appointed by His Sacred Majesty as commissioners for the review and alteration of the Book of common prayer, &c. : being an exact account of their whole proceedings : the most perfect copy. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.; Commission for the Review and Alteration of the Book of Common Prayer. 1661 (1661) Wing B1278A; Wing E3841; ESTC R7198 132,164 165

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be_v ancient_a so_o there_o want_v not_o a_o bign_n bellarm._n etc._n etc._n to_o tell_v we_o of_o s._n james_n his_o liturgy_n that_o mention_n the_o confessor_n the_o deiparam_fw-la the_o anchoret_n etc._n etc._n which_o make_v bellarm._n himself_o say_v de_fw-fr liturgia_fw-la jacobi_n sic_fw-la sentio_fw-la eam_fw-la aut_fw-la non_fw-la esse_fw-la ejus_fw-la aut_fw-la multa_fw-la à_fw-la posterioribus_fw-la eidem_fw-la addita_fw-la sunt_fw-la and_o must_v we_o prove_v the_o antiquity_n of_o liturgy_n by_o this_o or_o try_v we_o by_o it_o there_o want_v not_o a_o sainctetius_n a_o bellarm._n a_o valentia_n a_o peresius_n to_o predicate_v the_o liturgy_n of_o s._n basil_n as_o bear_v witness_n to_o transubstantiation_n for_o the_o sacrifice_n of_o the_o mass_n for_o pray_v to_o saint_n etc._n etc._n when_o yet_o the_o exceed_a disagreement_n of_o copy_n the_o difference_n of_o some_o form_n from_o basils_n ordinary_a form_n the_o prayer_n for_o the_o most_o pious_a and_o faithful_a 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we_o desire_v no_o other_o rule_n to_o decide_v the_o controversy_n by_o as_o to_o your_o citation_n 1_o socrat._v there_o tell_v we_o of_o the_o alternate_a sing_n of_o the_o aruians_n in_o the_o reproach_n of_o the_o orthodox_n and_o that_o chrysostome_n not_o a_o synod_n compile_v hymn_n to_o be_v sing_v in_o opposition_n to_o they_o in_o the_o street_n which_o come_v in_o the_o end_n to_o a_o tumult_n and_o bloodshed_n and_o hereupon_o he_o tell_v we_o of_o the_o original_n of_o alternate_a sing_n viz._n a_o pretend_a vision_n of_o ignatius_n that_o hear_v angel_n sing_v in_o that_o order_n and_o what_o be_v all_o this_o to_o alternate_a read_n and_o pray_v or_o to_o a_o divine_a institution_n when_o here_o be_v no_o mention_n of_o read_v or_o pray_v but_o of_o sing_v hymn_n and_o that_o not_o upon_o pretence_n of_o apostolical_a tradition_n but_o a_o vision_n of_o uncertain_a credit_n theodor._n also_o speak_v only_o of_o sing_v psalm_n alternate_o and_o not_o a_o word_n of_o 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liturgy_n which_o so_o much_o 1_o we_o seem_v to_o countenance_v the_o observation_n of_o lent_n as_o a_o religious_a fast_o and_o this_o as_o a_o expedient_a to_o peace_n which_o be_v in_o effect_n to_o desire_v that_o this_o our_o church_n may_v be_v contentious_a for_o peace_n sake_n and_o to_o divide_v from_o the_o church_n catholic_n that_o we_o may_v live_v at_o unity_n among_o ourselves_o for_o saint_n paul_n reckon_v they_o among_o the_o lover_n of_o contention_n who_o shall_v oppose_v themselves_o against_o the_o custom_n of_o the_o church_n of_o god_n that_o the_o religious_a observation_n of_o lent_n be_v a_o custom_n of_o the_o church_n of_o god_n appear_v by_o the_o testimony_n follow_v chrysost_n ser._n 11._o in_o heb._n 10._o cyrill_n catec_fw-la mist_n 5._o st._n august_n ep._n 119._o ut_fw-la 40._o dies_fw-la ante_fw-la pascha_fw-la observetur_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la consuetudo_fw-la roboravit_fw-la and_o st._n hierom_n ad_fw-la marcell_n say_v it_o be_v secundum_fw-la traditionem_fw-la apostolorum_fw-la this_o demand_v then_o tend_v not_o to_o peace_n but_o dissension_n the_o fast_v forty_o day_n may_v be_v in_o imitation_n of_o our_o saviour_n for_o all_o that_o be_v here_o say_v to_o the_o contrary_a for_o though_o we_o can_v arrive_v to_o his_o perfection_n abstain_v whole_o from_o meat_n so_o long_o yet_o we_o may_v fast_v forty_o day_n together_o either_o cornelius_n his_o fast_a till_o three_o of_o the_o clock_n afternoon_n or_o saint_n peter_n be_v fast_o till_o noon_n or_o at_o least_o daniel_n be_v fast_o abstain_v from_o meat_n and_o drink_n of_o delight_n and_o thus_o far_o imitate_v our_o lord_n reply_n if_o we_o have_v say_v that_o the_o church_n be_v contentious_a if_o it_o adore_v god_n in_o kneel_v on_o the_o lord_n day_n or_o use_v not_o the_o white_a garment_n milk_n and_o honey_n after_o baptism_n which_o have_v more_o pretence_n of_o apostolical_a tradition_n and_o be_v general_o use_v more_o ancient_o than_o lent_n will_v you_o not_o have_v think_v we_o wrong_v the_o church_n if_o the_o pure_a time_n of_o the_o church_n have_v one_o custom_n and_o late_a time_n a_o contrary_a which_o must_v we_o follow_v or_o must_v we_o necessary_o be_v contentious_a for_o not_o follow_v both_o or_o rather_o may_v we_o not_o by_o the_o example_n of_o the_o church_n that_o change_v they_o be_v allow_v to_o take_v such_o thing_n to_o be_v matter_n of_o liberty_n and_o not_o necessity_n if_o we_o must_v needs_o conform_v to_o the_o custom_n of_o other_o church_n in_o such_o thing_n or_o be_v contentious_a it_o be_v either_o because_o god_n have_v so_o command_v or_o because_o he_o have_v give_v those_o church_n authority_n to_o command_v it_o if_o the_o former_a than_o what_o church_n or_o what_o age_n must_v we_o conform_v to_o if_o all_o must_v concur_v to_o be_v our_o pattern_n it_o will_v be_v hard_a for_o we_o to_o be_v acquaint_v with_o they_o so_o far_o as_o to_o know_v of_o such_o concurrence_n and_o in_o our_o case_n we_o know_v that_o many_o do_v it_o not_o if_o it_o must_v be_v the_o most_o we_o will_v know_v where_o god_n command_v we_o to_o imitate_v the_o great_a number_n though_o the_o worse_o or_o have_v secure_v we_o that_o they_o shall_v not_o be_v the_o worst_a or_o why_o we_o be_v not_o tie_v rather_o to_o imitate_v the_o pure_a age_n than_o the_o more_o corrupt_a if_o it_o be_v say_v that_o the_o church_n have_v authority_n to_o command_v we_o we_o desire_v to_o know_v what_o church_n that_o be_v and_o where_o to_o be_v find_v and_o hear_v that_o may_v command_v england_n and_o all_o the_o church_n of_o his_o majesty_n dominion_n if_o it_o be_v say_v to_o be_v a_o general_n council_n 1._o no_o general_n council_n can_v pretend_v to_o more_o authority_n than_o that_o of_o nice_n who_o 20_o canon_n back_v with_o tradition_n and_o common_a pratice_fw-la now_o bind_v not_o we_o and_o be_v lay_v by_o without_o any_o repeal_n by_o follow_v council_n 2._o we_o know_v of_o no_o such_o thing_n 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be_v not_o govern_v with_o the_o spirit_n and_o word_n of_o god_n they_o may_v err_v and_o sometime_o have_v err_v even_o in_o thing_n pertain_v unto_o god_n therefore_o thing_n ordain_v by_o they_o as_o necessary_a to_o salvation_n have_v neither_o strength_n nor_o authority_n unless_o it_o may_v be_v declare_v that_o they_o be_v take_v out_o of_o the_o holy_a scripture_n and_o if_o they_o may_v err_v in_o thing_n pertain_v unto_o god_n and_o ordain_v by_o they_o as_o necessary_a to_o salvation_n much_o more_o in_o lesser_a thing_n and_o be_v we_o contentious_a if_o we_o err_v not_o with_o they_o our_o 39_o article_n determine_v this_o controversy_n say_v it_o be_v not_o necessary_a that_o tradition_n and_o ceremony_n be_v in_o all_o place_n one_o or_o utter_o like_a for_o at_o all_o time_n they_o have_v
whoredom_n perjury_n oppression_n yea_o infidelity_n or_o atheism_n etc._n etc._n but_o suppose_v we_o can_v be_v infallible_o certain_a that_o the_o man_n be_v damn_v because_o it_o be_v possible_a that_o he_o may_v repent_v though_o he_o never_o do_v express_v it_o will_v you_o therefore_o take_v he_o for_o a_o brother_n who_o soul_n be_v take_v to_o god_n in_o mercy_n you_o be_v not_o sure_a that_o a_o excommunicate_a person_n or_o a_o heathen_a do_v not_o true_o repent_v after_o he_o be_v speechless_a but_o will_v you_o therefore_o say_v that_o all_o such_o die_v thus_o happy_o this_o be_v a_o most_o delusory_a principle_n the_o church_n judge_v not_o of_o thing_n undiscovered_a non_fw-la esse_fw-la &_o non_fw-la apparere_fw-la be_v all_o one_o as_o to_o our_o judgement_n we_o conclude_v not_o peremptory_o because_o we_o pretend_v not_o here_o to_o infallibility_n as_o we_o be_v not_o sure_a that_o any_o man_n be_v true_o penitent_a that_o we_o give_v the_o sacrament_n to_o so_o we_o be_v not_o sure_a that_o any_o man_n die_v impenitent_o but_o yet_o we_o must_v use_v those_o as_o penitent_a that_o seem_v so_o to_o reason_n judge_v by_o ordinary_a mean_n and_o so_o must_v we_o judge_v those_o as_o impenitent_a that_o have_v declare_v their_o sin_n and_o never_o declare_v their_o repentance_n it_o seem_v by_o you_o that_o you_o will_v form_v your_o liturgy_n so_o as_o to_o say_v that_o every_o man_n be_v save_v that_o you_o be_v not_o sure_o be_v damn_v though_o he_o show_v you_o no_o repentance_n and_o so_o the_o church_n shall_v say_v that_o all_o thing_n be_v that_o be_v but_o possible_a if_o they_o conceit_v that_o charity_n require_v it_o but_o if_o the_o live_n by_o this_o be_v keep_v from_o conversion_n and_o flatter_v into_o hell_n will_v they_o there_o call_v it_o charity_n that_o bring_v they_o thither_o o_o lamentable_a charity_n that_o smoother_n man_n way_n to_o hell_n and_o keep_v they_o ignorant_a of_o their_o danger_n till_o they_o be_v past_a remedy_n million_o be_v now_o suffer_v for_o such_o a_o sort_n of_o charity_n lay_v this_o to_o the_o formentioned_a proposition_n and_o the_o world_n will_v see_v that_o indeed_o we_o differ_v in_o great_a thing_n than_o ceremony_n and_o form_n of_o prayer_n church_a woman_n it_o be_v fit_a that_o the_o woman_n perform_v especial_a service_n of_o thanksgiving_n shall_v 1_o have_v a_o special_a place_n for_o it_o where_o she_o may_v be_v perspicuous_a to_o the_o whole_a congregation_n and_o near_o the_o holy_a table_n in_o regard_n of_o the_o offer_n she_o be_v there_o to_o make_v they_o need_v not_o fear_v popery_n in_o this_o since_o in_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n she_o be_v to_o kneel_v at_o the_o church_n door_n reply_n those_o that_o be_v deliver_v from_o impenitency_n from_o sickness_n etc._n etc._n perform_v a_o special_a service_n of_o thanksgiving_n etc._n etc._n yet_o need_v not_o stand_v in_o a_o special_a place_n but_o if_o you_o will_v have_v all_o your_o ceremony_n why_o must_v all_o other_o be_v force_v to_o imitate_v you_o we_o mention_v not_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n the_o psalm_n 121._o be_v more_o fit_a and_o pertinent_a than_o those_o other_o name_v as_o 113_o 2._o 128._o and_o therefore_o not_o to_o be_v change_v reply_n we_o have_v popose_v to_o you_o what_o we_o think_v meet_a in_o our_o last_o page_n if_o you_o like_v your_o own_o better_a we_o pray_v you_o give_v we_o leave_v to_o think_v otherwise_o and_o to_o use_v what_o we_o propound_v if_o the_o woman_n be_v such_o as_o be_v here_o mention_v she_o be_v to_o do_v her_o penance_n before_o she_o 3_o be_v church_v reply_n that_o be_v if_o she_o be_v accuse_v prosecute_v and_o judge_v by_o the_o bishop_n court_n to_o do_v penance_n first_o which_o happen_v not_o to_o one_o of_o a_o multitude_n and_o what_o shall_v the_o minister_n do_v with_o all_o the_o rest_n all_o tend_v to_o take_v away_o the_o difference_n between_o the_o precious_a and_o the_o vile_a between_o those_o that_o fear_n god_n and_o that_o fear_v he_o not_o offering_n be_v require_v as_o well_o under_o the_o gospel_n as_o the_o law_n and_o among_o other_o time_n most_o fit_a it_o be_v that_o oblation_n shall_v be_v when_o we_o come_v to_o give_v thanks_o 4._o for_o some_o special_a blessing_n psal_n 76._o 10_o 11._o such_o be_v the_o deliverance_n in_o child-bearing_a reply_n oblation_n shall_v be_v free_a and_o not_o force_v to_o some_o special_a use_n and_o not_o to_o ostentation_n this_n be_v needless_a since_o the_o rubr._n and_o comm._n require_v that_o no_o notorious_a person_n 5._o be_v admit_v reply_n we_o glad_o accept_v so_o fair_a a_o interpretation_n as_o free_v the_o book_n from_o self-contradiction_n and_o we_o from_o trouble_n but_o we_o think_v it_o will_v do_v no_o hurt_n but_o good_a to_o be_v more_o express_a the_o concession_n we_o be_v willing_a that_o all_o the_o epistle_n and_o gospel_n be_v use_v according_a to_o 1_o the_o last_o translation_n reply_n we_o still_o beseech_v you_o that_o all_o the_o psalm_n and_o other_o scripture_n in_o the_o liturgy_n recite_v may_v for_o the_o same_o reason_n be_v use_v according_a to_o the_o last_o translation_n that_o when_o any_o thing_n be_v read_v for_o a_o epistle_n which_o be_v not_o in_o the_o epistle_n the_o superscription_n be_v for_o the_o epistle_n 2._o repl._n we_o beseech_v you_o speak_v as_o the_o vulgar_a may_v understand_v you_o for_o the_o epistle_n signify_v not_o plain_a enough_o to_o such_o that_o be_v indeed_o none_o of_o the_o epistle_n that_o the_o psalm_n be_v collate_v with_o the_o former_a translation_n mention_v in_o 3_o rubr._n and_o print_v according_a to_o it_o reply_n we_o understand_v not_o what_o translation_n or_o rubr._n you_o mean_v that_o the_o word_n this_o day_n both_o in_o the_o collect_v and_o preface_n be_v use_v only_o upon_o 4._o the_o day_n itself_o and_o for_o the_o follow_a day_n it_o be_v say_v as_o about_o this_o time_n reply_n and_o yet_o there_o be_v no_o certainty_n which_o be_v the_o day_n itself_o that_o a_o long_a time_n be_v require_v for_o signification_n of_o the_o name_n of_o the_o com._n and_o 5._o the_o word_n of_o the_o rubr._n be_v change_v into_o these_o at_o least_o some_o time_n the_o day_n before_o reply_n sometime_o the_o day_n before_o may_v be_v near_o or_o at_o night_n which_o will_v not_o allow_v any_o leisure_n at_o all_o to_o take_v notice_n of_o the_o proof_n of_o people_n scandal_n or_o to_o help_v they_o in_o preparation_n that_o the_o power_n of_o keep_v scandalous_a sinner_n from_o the_o communion_n may_v be_v 6._o express_v in_o the_o rubr._n according_a to_o the_o 26._o and_o 27._o canon_n so_o the_o minister_n be_v oblige_v to_o give_v a_o account_n of_o the_o same_o immediate_o after_o to_o the_o ordinary_a reply_n we_o be_v about_o return_v you_o our_o very_a great_a thanks_o for_o grant_v we_o the_o benefit_n of_o the_o 26._o canon_n as_o that_o which_o exceed_v all_o the_o rest_n of_o your_o concessious_a but_o we_o see_v you_o will_v not_o make_v we_o too_o much_o behold_v to_o you_o and_o poor_a christian_n that_o will_v not_o receive_v the_o sacrament_n contrary_a to_o the_o example_n of_o christ_n and_o his_o apostle_n and_o the_o custom_n of_o the_o catholic_n primitive_a church_n and_o the_o canon_n of_o general_a council_n must_v be_v also_o use_v as_o the_o notorious_a impenitent_a sinner_n but_o the_o canon_n require_v we_o not_o to_o signify_v the_o cause_n but_o upon_o complaint_n or_o be_v require_v by_o the_o ordinary_a that_o the_o whole_a preface_n be_v prefix_v to_o the_o commandment_n 7._o reply_n and_o why_o not_o the_o word_n sabbath_n day_n be_v put_v for_o the_o seven_o day_n in_o the_o end_n must_v not_o such_o a_o falsification_n be_v amend_v that_o the_o second_o exhortation_n be_v read_v some_o sunday_n or_o holiday_n before_o the_o 8._o celebration_n of_o the_o communion_n at_o the_o discretion_n of_o the_o minister_n that_o the_o general_a confession_n at_o the_o communion_n be_v pronounce_v by_o one_o of_o the_o 9_o minister_n the_o people_n say_v after_o he_o all_z kneeling_z humble_o upon_o their_o knee_n that_o the_o manner_n of_o consecrate_v the_o element_n may_v be_v make_v more_o explicit_a 10._o and_o express_v and_o to_o that_o purpose_n those_o word_n be_v put_v into_o the_o rub._n then_o shall_v he_o put_v his_o hand_n upon_o the_o bread_n &_o break_v it_o then_o shall_v he_o put_v his_o hand_n unto_o the_o cup._n that_o if_o the_o font_n be_v so_o place_v as_o the_o congregation_n can_v hear_v it_o may_v be_v refer_v to_o the_o ordinary_a to_o place_v it_o more_o convenient_o 11._o that_o those_o word_n yes_o they_o do_v perform_v they_o etc._n etc._n nay_o be_v alter_v thus_o because_o they_o promise_v they_o both_o by_o their_o surety_n etc._n etc._n 12._o that_o the_o word_n of_o the_o last_o rubr_n before_o the_o catechism_n may_v be_v thus_o alter_v that_o child_n be_v baptize_v have_v all_o thing_n necessary_a for_o their_o salvation_n and_o 13._o die_v before_o they_o commit_v any_o actual_a sin_n be_v undoubted_o save_v though_o they_o be_v not_o confirm_v that_o to_o the_o rubr._n after_o confirmation_n these_o word_n may_v be_v add_v or_o be_v ready_a and_o desirous_a to_o be_v confirm_v 14._o that_o those_o word_n with_o my_o body_n i_o thou_o worship_n may_v be_v alter_v thus_o with_o 15._o my_o body_n i_o thou_o honour_n that_o those_o word_n till_o death_n we_o depart_v be_v thus_o alter_v till_o death_n we_o do_v part_n 16._o that_o the_o word_n sure_a and_o certain_a may_v be_v leave_v out_o 17._o reply_n for_o all_o the_o rest_n we_o thank_v you_o but_o have_v give_v our_o reason_n against_o your_o sense_n express_v in_o sect._n 13._o before_o and_o for_o satisfactoriness_n of_o the_o last_o and_o we_o must_v say_v in_o the_o conclusion_n that_o if_o these_o be_v all_o the_o abatement_n and_o amendment_n you_o will_v admit_v you_o sell_v your_o innocency_n and_o the_o church_n peace_n for_o nothing_o finis_fw-la excep_v excep_v excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v 2._o exhor_n 3._o exhor_n excep_v rub._n before_o the_o confession_n excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v prayer_n before_o that_o which_o be_v at_o the_o consecration_n excep_v excep_v rub._n excep_v rub_v excep_v rub._n excep_v excep_v rub._n excep_v excep_v excep_v except_o excep_v excep_v excep_v excep_v excep_v excep_v excep_v rub._n except_o rub_v except_o except_o excep_v except_o except_o excep_v rub._n excep_v excep_v excep_v excep_v rub._n next_o rub._n excep_v collect._n excep_v rub._n lastrub_n excep_v rub._n rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v excep_v excep_v rub._n excep_v rub._n excep_v ans_fw-fr excep_v rub._n excep_v the_o same_o rubric_n excep_v sect._n 1_o sect._n 2._o sect._n 3_o sect_n 5._o sect._n 6._o prop._n u._n 1._o sect._n 5._o sect._n 2._o sect._n 3_o sect._n 4._o sect._n 2._o n._n 3_o 4._o socrat._v 1._o 6._o cap._n 8._o theodor._n 1._o 2._o c._n 24._o 2_o chron._n 7._o 1_o 4._o ezra_n 3._o 11._o n._n 5._o sect._n 1_o n._n 6._o n._n 7._o s._n 1._o s._n 2._o 4._o 3._o §._o 4._o §._o 5._o n._n 9_o n._n 10._o n._n 11._o n._n 1●_n n._n 17._o n._n 16._o §._o 1._o ●●_o §_o §._o 3._o n._n 17._o §._o 1._o exc._n 1_o §._o 2._o exc._n 2._o §._o 3._o §._o 7._o exc._n 3_o §._o 5._o exc._n 4._o §._o 6._o exc._n 5._o n._n 18._o §._o 1._o §._o 2._o cor._n 11._o 2._o see_v hooker_n li._n 3._o sect._n 4._o 3._o 4._o see_v hookli_n 4_o sect._n 1_o s._n 3._o r._n 1._o §._o 4._o rul_a 2._o §._o 5._o r._n l._n 3._o heb._n 13._o 17._o rom._n 13._o §._o 6._o rul_a 4._o §._o 7._o rul_a 5._o §._o 8._o answ_n 1._o 1._o cor._n 14._o §._o 9_o ●_o 2._o §._o 10._o a._n 3._o hooker_n l._n 5._o sect._n 6._o 8._o s._n aug._n ep._n 23._o sect_n 6._o pag._n 24._o sect._n 7._o pag_n 24._o tit._n 3._o 5._o sect_n 8._o sect_n 1._o p._n 2._o 26._o an._n 3._o sect._n a._n 2._o cor._n sect._n 4_o pag._n 27._o sect._n 5._o sect._n 6._o sect._n 7._o pa._n 28._o sect._n 1_o rub._n 1._o sect._n 2._o rubr._n sect._n 3_o ex._n 1_o sect._n 5._o p._n 30._o rub._n sect._n 6._o ex._n 1._o sect._n 7._o ex._n 2._o sect._n 8._o marriage_n the_o ring_n sect._n 1._o p._n 31._o sect._n 2._o p●_n 32._o ex._n 1._o sect._n 3_o se._n 4._o col._n se._n 5._o p._n 33._o rubr._n 18._o sect._n 1_o sect._n 2._o sect._n 3._o p._n 34_o exc._n 1_o sect._n 2._o p._n 2._o sect_n 3._o p._n 33._o sect._n 1._o p._n 36._o exc._n 1_o sect._n 2._o exc._n 2._o sect._n 3_o exc._n 3_o sect._n 4._o exc._n 4._o sect._n 5._o exc._n 5._o sect._n 1_o sect._n 2._o sect._n 3_o sect._n 4._o sect._n 5._o sect_n 6._o sect._n 7._o sect._n 8._o sect._n 9_o sect._n 10._o sect._n 11._o sect._n 12._o sect._n 13._o sect._n 14._o sect._n 15._o sect._n 16._o sect._n 17._o
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