of a contrary and dubious opinion concerning these treasons either upon the statutes of 25. E. 3. and 18. H. 6. or at the Common Law My Lords if all these five should faile they have given me further in command to declare to your Lordships some of their reasons why they conceive that in this case the meere Legaslative power may be exercised Their reasons are taken from these three grounds 1. From the nature and quality of the offence 2. From the frame and constitution of the Parliament wherein this Law is made 3. From practices and usages of former times The horridnesse of the offence in endeavouring the overthrowing the Lawes and present government hath been fully opened to your Lordships heretofore The Parliament is the representation of the whole Kingdome wherein the King as Head your Lordships as the more noble and the Commons the other members are knit together in one body politick This dissolves the arteries and ligaments that hold the Body together the Lawes He that takes away the Lawes takes not away the allegeance of one subject alone but of the whole Kingdome It was made Treason by the statute of 13. El. for her time to affirme That the Lawes of the Realme doe not bind the descent of the Crowne no Law no descent at all No Lawes no Peerage no ranks or degrees of men the same condition to all It 's treason to kill a Judge upon the Bench this kills not Iudicem sed Iudicium He that borrowed Apelles and gave bond to return again Apelles the Painter sent him home after he had cut off his right hand his bond was broken Apelles was sent but not the Painter There be twelve men but no law there 's never a Judge amongst them It s felony to embezill any one of the judiciall records of the Kingdome this at once sweepes them all away and from all It s treason to counter feit a twenty shilling peece here 's a counterfeiting of the Law we can call neither the counterfeit nor true coyne our owne It s treason to counterfeit the great Seale for an acre of land no property hereby is left to any land at all Nothing treason now either against King or Kingdome no Law to punish it My Lords If the question were asked in Westminster Hall whether this were a crime punishable in starre-chamber or in the Kings Bench by fine or imprisonment they would say it went higher If whether felony they would say That 's for an offence onely against the life or goods of some one or few persons It would I beleeve be answered by the Judges as it was by the chiefe Justice Thirning in 21. R. 2. That though he could judge the case treason there before him yet if he were a Peere in Parliament he would so adjudge it My Lords if it be too big for those Courts we hope it s in the right way here 2. The second consideration is from the frame and constitution of the Parliament the Parliament is the great body politicke it comprehends all from the King to the begger if so my Lords as the naturall so this body it hath power over it selfe and every one of the members for the preservation of the whole It s both the Physitian and the patient if the body be distempered it hath power to open a veine to let out the corrupt blood for curing of it selfe if one member be poysoned and gangren'd it hath power to cut it off for the preservation of the rest But my Lords it hath been often inculcated that Law-makers should imitate their supreme Law-giver who commonly warnes before he strikes the Law was promulged before the judgement of death for gathering of sticks no Law no transgression My Lords to this the rule of Law is Frustra Legis auxilium invocat qui in Legem committit from the Lex talionis he that would not have had others to have law why should he have any himselfe why should not that be done to him that himself would have done to others It 's true we give law to Hares and Deers because they be beasts of Chase it was never accounted either cruelty or foule play to knock Foxes and Wolves on the head as they can be found because these be beasts of prey The Warrener sets traps for Powlcats and other Vermine for preservation of the Warren Further my Lords most dangerous diseases if not taken in time they kill Errors in great things as Warre and Marriage they allow no time for repentance it would have been too late to make a law when there had been no law My Lords for further answer to this objection he hath offended a law a law within the endeavouring to subvert the lawes and polity of the State wherein he lived which had so long and with such faithfulnesse protected his Ancestry himselfe and his whole family it was not malum quia prohibitum it was malum in se against the dictates of the dullest conscience against the light of nature they not having the law were a law to themselves Besides this he knew a law without that the Parliament in cases of this nature had potestatem vitae necis Nay he well knew that he offended the promulged and ordinary rules of law Crimes against Law have been proved have been confessed so that the question is not de culpâ sed de poenâ what degree of punishment those faults deserve we must differ from him in opinion that twenty felonies cannot make a treason if it be meant of equality in the use of the Legislative power for hee that deserves death for one of these felonies alone deserves a death more painfull and more ignominious for all together Every felony is punished with losse of life lands and goods a felony may be aggravated with those circumstances as that the Parliament with good reason may adde to the circumstances of punishment as was done in the case of John Hall in the Parliament H. 4. who for a barbarous murder committed upon the Duke of Glocester stifling him between two feather-beds at Calice was adjudged to be hanged drawn and quartered Batteries by Law are punishable only by fine and single dammages to the party wounded In the Parliament held in 1. H. 4. cap. 6. one Savadge committed a Battery upon one Chedder servant to Sir Iohn Brook a Knight of the Parliament for Somersetshire It 's there enacted that he shall pay double dammages and stand convicted if he render not himselfe by such a time The manner of proceedings quickned the penalty doubled the circumstances were considered it concerned the Common-wealth it was Battery with breach of priviledge of Parliament This made a perpetuall Act no warning to the first offender and in the Kings Bench as appeares by the book case of 9. H. 4. the first leafe double dammages were recovered My Lords in this of the Bill the offence is high and generall against the King and the Common-wealth against all and the best of all
Lords That nothing might be left here for an exception that is that in treasons felonies and other capitall offences concerning life the Irish lawes are not the same as here Therefore it is enacted in a Parliament held in England in the 14. yeere of Edward the second it is not in print neither but is in the Parliament booke That the Lawes concerning life and member shall be the same in Ireland as in England And that no exception might yet remaine in a Parliament held in England the fifth yeere of Edward the third It is enacted quod una eadem Lex fiat tam Hibernicis quam Anglicis This act is enrolled in the Patent rolls of the fifth yeere of Ed. the 3. part 1. membr 25. The Irish therefore receiving their Lawes from hence they send their Students at Law to the Innes of Courts in England where they receive their degree and of them and of the common Lawyers of this kingdome are the Judges made The petitions have been many from Ireland to send from hence some Judges more learned in the Lawes then those they had there It hath been frequent in cases of difficulty there to send some times to the Parliament here sometimes to the King by advice from the Judges here to send them resolutions of their doubts Amongst many I 'll cite your Lordships onely one because it is in a case of treason upon an Irish statute and therefore full to this point By a Statute there made in the fifth yeere of Edward the fourth there is provision made for such as upon suggestions are committed to prison for Treason that the party committed if he can procure 24. Compurgators shall be bailed and let out of prison Two Citizens of Dublin were by a grand Jury presented to have committed Treason They desired the benefit of this statute that they might be let out of prison upon tender of their Compurgators The words of the Statute of the 5. yeere of Ed. the fourth in Ireland being obscure the Judges there not being satisfied what to doe sent the case over to the Queene desired the opinion of the Judges here which was done accordingly The Judges here sent over their opinion which I have out of the Book of Justice Anderson one of the Judges consulted withall The Judges here delivered opinion upon an Irish Statute in case of Treason If it be objected That in this case the Judges here did not judge upon the party their opinions were only ad informandam conscientiam of the Judges in Ireland that the judgement belonged to the Judges there My Lords with submission this and the other Authorities prove that for which they were cited that is That no absurdity no failer of justice would ensue if this great Judicatory should judge of Treason so made by an Irish Statute The common Law the rule of judging upon an Irish Statute the Pleas of the Crowne for things of life and death are the same here and there This is all that hath yet beene offered For the second point That England hath no power of Judicature for things done in Ireland My Lords the constant practice of ages proves the contrary Writs of errour in Pleas of the Crowne as well as in civill causes have in all Kings reignes been brought here even in the inferiour Courts of Westminster Hall upon judgements given in the courts of Ireland The practice is so frequent and so well known as that I shall cite none of them to your Lordships no president will I beleeve bee produced to your Lordships that ever the case was remanded back againe into Ireland because the question rose upon an Irish Statute or custome Object But it will bee said That writs of errour are onely upon a failer of justice in Ireland and that suits cannot originally bee commenced here for things done in Ireland because the Kings writ runs not in Ireland Answ This might be a good plea in the Kings Bench and inferiour Courts at Westminster Hall the question is whether it bee so in Parliament The Kings writ runs not within the County Palatine of Chester and Durham nor within the five Ports neither did it in Wales before the union in Henry the eighth's time after the Lawes of England were brought into Wales in King Edward the first 's time suits were not originally commenced in Westminster Hall for things done in them yet this never excluded the Parliament suits for life lands and goods within those jurisdictions are determinable in Parliament as well as in any other parts of the Realme Ireland as appeares by the statute of the thirtieth yeere of Henry the third before mentioned is united to the Crowne of England By the Statute of the eight and twenty yeere of Henry the sixth in Ireland it is declared in these words That Ireland is the proper Dominion of England and united to the Crown of England which Crowne of England is of it selfe and by it self fully wholly and entirely endowed with all power and authority sufficient to yeeld to the subjects of the same full and plenary remedy in all debates and suits whatsoever By the Statute of the 33. yeere of Henry the eighth the first Chapter when the Kings of England first assumed the title of King of Ireland it is there enacted That Ireland still is to bee held as a Crowne annexed and united to the Crowne of England So that by the same reason from this that the Kings writ runs not in Ireland it might aswell be held that the Parliament cannot originally hold plea of things done within the County Palatine of Chester and Durham nor within the five Ports and Wales Ireland is part of the Realme of England as appeares by those statutes as well as any of them This is made good by constant practice In all the Parment rolls from the first to the last there are receivers and tryers of petitions appointed for Ireland For the Irish to come so farre with their petitions for justice and the Parliament not to have cognizance when from time to time they had in the beginning of the Parliament appointed receivers and tryers of them is a thing not to be presumed An appeale in Ireland brought by William Lord Vescye against Iohn Fitz Thomas for treasonable words there spoken before any Judgement given in the case there was removed into the Parliament in England and there the defendant acquitted as appeares in the Parliament pleas of the two and twentieth yeere of Edward the first The suits for lands offices and goods originally begun here are many and if question grew upon matter in fact a Jury usually ordered to try it and the verdict returned into Parliament as in the case of one Balliben in the Parliament of the five and thirtieth yeere of Edward the first If doubt arose upon a matter tryable by Record a writ went to the Officers in whose custody the Record remained to certifie the Record as was in the case of Robert Bagot the
same Parliament of the five and thirtieth yeere of Edward the first where the writs went to the Treasurer and Barons of the Exchequer Sometimes they gave judgement here in Parliament and commanded the Judges there in Ireland to doe execution as in the great case of Partition betweene the copartners of the Earle Marshall in the Parliament of the 33. yeere of Edward the first where the writ was awarded to the Treasurer of Ireland My Lords The Lawes of Ireland were introduced by the Parliaments of England as appeares by three Acts of Parliament before cited It is of higher jurisdiction dare Leges then to judge by them The Parliaments of England doe binde in Ireland if Ireland be particularly mentioned as is resolved in the Book case of the first yeere of Henry the seventh Cokes seventh Report Calvins case and by the Judges in Trinity Terme in the three and thirtieth yeere of Queene Elizabeth The Statute of the eighth yeere of Edward the fourth the first Chapter in Ireland recites that it was doubted amongst the judges whether all the English Statutes though not naming Ireland were in force there if named no doubt From King Henry the third his time downward to the eighth yeere of Queene Elizabeth by which statute it is made felony to carry sheepe from Ireland beyond seas in almost all these Kings reignes there be statutes made concerning Ireland The exercising of the Legislative power there over their lives and estates is higher then of the Judiciall in question Vntill the nine and twentieth yeere of Edward the third erroneous judgements given in Ireland were determinable no where but in England no not in the Parliaments of Ireland as it appeares in the close rolls in the Tower In the nine and twentieth yeere of Ed. the third mem 12. Power to examine and reverse erroneous judgements in the Parliaments of Ireland is granted from hence Writs of errour lie in the Parliament here upon erroneous judgements after that time given in the Parliaments of Ireland as appeares in the Parliament rolls of the eighth yeere of Henry the sixth membra 70. in the case of the Prior of Lenthan It is true the case is not determined there for it 's the last thing that came into the Parliament and could not be determined for want of time but no exception at all is taken to the jurisdiction The Acts of Parliament made in Ireland have been confirmed in the Parliaments of England as appeares by the close rolls in the Tower in the 42. yeere of Edward the 3. membra 20. dorso where the Parliament in Ireland for the preservation of the Countrey from the Irish who had almost destroyed it made an Act that all the land-owners that were English should reside upon their lands or else they were to be forfeited this was here confirmed In the Parliament of the 4. yeere of H. the 5. chap. 6. Acts of Parliament in Ireland are confirmed and some privileges of the Peeres in the Parliaments there are regulated Power to repeale Irish Statutes power to confirme them cannot be by the Parliament here if it hath not cognizance of their Parliaments unlesse it besaid That the Parliament may doe it knowes not what Garnesey and Jersey are under the Kings subjection but are not parcels of the Crown of England but of the dutchy of Normandy they are not governed by the lawes of England as Ireland is and yet Parliaments in England have usually held plea of and determined all causes concerning land or goods In the Parliament of 33. E. 1. there be placita de Insula Iernesey and so in the Parliament 14. E. 2. and so for Normandy and Gascoyne and alwayes as long as any part of France was in subjection to the Crown of England there were at the beginning of Parliaments receivers and tryers of petitions for those parts appointed I beleeve your Lordships will have no cases shewed of any plea to the jurisdiction of the Parliaments of England in any thing done in any parts wheresoever in subjection to the Crown of England The last thing I shall offer to your Lordships is the case of 19. El. in my Lord Dyer 306. and Judge Comptons book of the jurisdiction of Courts fol. 23. The opinion of both these books is that an Irish Peere is not triable here It 's true a Scotish or French Nobleman is triable here as a common person the Law takes no notice of their Nobility because those Countryes are not governed by the Lawes of England but Ireland being governed by the same Lawes the Peeres there are triable according to the Law of England onely per pares By the same reason the Earle of Strafford not being a peere of Ireland is not triable by the Peeres of Ireland so that if he be not triable here he is triable no where My Lords In case there be a Treason and a Traitor within the statute and that he be not triable here for it in the ordinary way of judicatory if that jurisdiction failes this by way of Bill doth not Attainders of Treason in Parliament are as legall as usuall by Act of Parliament as by Judgement I have now done with the statutes of 25. E. 3 and 18. H. 6. My Lord of Strafford hath offended against both the Kingdomes and is guilty of high Treason by the Lawes of both 5 My Lords In the fifth place I am come to the Treasons at the common Law the endevouring to subvert the fundamentall Lawes and government of the Kingdome and to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannycall government In this I shall not at all labour to prove that the endevouring by words counsells and actions to subvert the Lawes is treason at the common Law if there be any common-Law-treasons at all left nothing treason if this not to make a Kingdome no Kingdome take the politie and government away England's but a peece of earth wherein so many men have their commorancy and abode without rancks or distinction of men without property in any thing further then possession no Law to punish the murdering or robbing one another That of 33 H. 8. of introducing the Imperiall Law sticks not with your Lordships It was in case of an appeal to Rome These appeals in cases of marriages and other causes counted Ecclesiasticall had been frequent had in most Kings reignes been tollerated some in times of popery put a conscience upon them the statutes had limitted the penally to a Premunire only Neither was that a totall subversion only an appeal from the Ecclesiasticall Court here in a single cause to the Court at Rome and if treason or not that case proves not a treason may be punished as a felony a felony as a trespasse if his Majesty so please the greater includes the lesser In the case of Premunire in the Irish reports that which is there declared to be treason proceeded upon onely as a Premunire The thing most considerable in this is whether the treasons at common Law be taken