Brother because an Oâ—pring was then begotteÌ„ of that former Mariadg to wit the daughter of Herodiades who so pleased the King with dansing that she obtayned the heade of S. Iohn Baptist That this daughter was the daughter of Herodiades begotte by the Brother of Herod is acknowledged by the testimony of Chrisostome Secondly I further answeare to this example of Herod that the sinne of Herod was not only Incest but also adultery since Herod did marye the wyfe of his Brother he being yet liuing as S. Ierom witnesseth out of auncient historyes and Iosephus auerreth the same Thus far then of this poynt to show that all the Precepts of Leâ—iticus touching the prohibited degrees in Mariadg are not commanded by the law of Nature and that they do not oblige Christians by diuine Law for the euer obseruing of them But that some of them are in themselfs dispensable And consequently that the Church of Christ may vpon most vrgent Occasions sometymes dispense with some of the said Precepts Now heare then appeareth the inconsidrate and rash obloqâ—y of our Aduersaries charging the Pope that he teaching Mariadg to be a Sacrament consequently by his owne doctrine vndertaketh and presumeth to alter the Matter or Essentiall parts of a Sacrament which was first instituted by Christ and therefore inaltorable by Man To which false aspertion I answeare that neither the Pope nor the Church can change the essentiall parts of this or any other Sacrament for we are heare to conceaue that the Matter of this Sacrament is not the ioyning together of euery Man or woman since then this Sacrament might be perfected betweene the Father and the Daughter but only the ioyning together of Lawfull persons Now which are lawfull persons for Mariadg Christ did not appoint or set downe but only a humane Contract betweene lawfull persons being presupposed Christ himselfe did aduance this coniunction to the dignity of a Sacrament Therefore the Church or the Pope doth only determine who are to be accounted Lawfull Persons for the contracting of mariadge And in this sort the Church doth only prepare the Matter or foundation fitting for this Sacrament But doth not nor can alter and change the essentiall parts of the Sacrament of Mariadge And herewith I conclude this short discours touching this subiect That the Catholicks do not expunge out of Gods writ or reiect those words in the Decalogue Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. But that they willingly acknowledge them as part of the Decalogue howsoeuer they be not sometymes set downe in Cathechisâ—es and Primars VVHereas the Protestants do charge the Catholicks to conceale through their affected fraud in their Catechisâ—nes and Primars one commandement and so to expunge it out of Holy Writ To wit Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image nor the likenesse of anything aboue in Heauen or on earth beneath neyther of those things which are in the waters vnder the earth Thou shalt nor adore them or worship them c. This I say is eyther a fraudulent or an ignorant mistaking of our Aduersaries For the truth is those words heere recited do but make one and the same Commandement with those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me these later being but a more full explication of the first words and consequently may be omitted sometimes in a short numbering or setting downe of the Commandements This is thus prooued Euery Image is not prohibited in the Decalogue or ten Commandements but only that which may be truly called an Idoll that is an Image which is taken for God or which representeth God to be that thing which God is not Therefore when it is sayd Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. the exteriour Act of Idolatry is forbidden But in those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me the internall Act of Idolatry is prohibited Of which point most at large Saint Austin discourseth Now that Images are not absolutely forbidden by the law of God appeareth in that the Scripture telleth vs that God himselfe commanded Images to be made According heere to we reade in the booke of Kings that God commanded the Images of the Cherubins Lyons and Oxen to be made In the Booke of Numbers the brazen serpent And in Exodus the Images of the Cherubin to be made From whence we may infallibly conclude that the making of Images is not absolutely forbidden by God as a distinct precept from the first but only so farre forth as the Images be taken for God and consequently that as is aboue said these words forbidding the making of Images do but make one the same Commandement with the first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me And therefore the Catholicks do not fraudulently conceale one of the ten Commandements as our Aduersaryes do in their Pulpits tragically complaine Againe Yf all Images should be absolutly prohibited in the former words of the Decalogue then should it follow that the Precepts of the Decalogue should not be only ten but eleuen or twelue an inference incompatible with the Scripture it selfe which in expresse words teacheth that there are but ten Commandements The necessity of this Inference is thus prooued It is granted on all sides that those words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me is one Precept That thou shalt not take the name of God in vayne is an other A third Thou shalt keepe holy the Saboath day A fourth Honour thy Father and thy Mother A fift Thou shalt not kill A sixt Thou shalt not commit adultery A seauenth Thou shalt not steale An eight Thou shalt not beare falfe witnesse against thy neighbour A ninth Thou shalt noâ— couet c. Now that Thou shalt not couet c. is eyther to be deuyded into two precepts so as the ninth Precept shal be Thou shalt not couet thy neighbours wife the tenth Thou shalt not coâ—ct thy neighbours Oxe nor his Asse nor any thing that is his Or els those word Thou shalt not couet c. with all the words following to wit his Wife his Oxe his Asse or any thing that is his do make but one precept or Commandement Yf they ought to be deuided into two then followeth it that those words Thou shalt not make any grauen â—mage c. shal be the eleuenth Commandement contrary to the Scripture or that this is not a distinct precept froÌ„ the first videlicet Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me As Clemens Alexander Saint Austin all schoolemen and Latin Catechismes do teach And then it followeth that not euery grauen Image is forbidden in these words but only that which is taken for an other God Now if supposing further that that thou shalt not couet c. be only one Precept as some other fathers do hould then to make vp the tenth Commandement all those words Thou shalt not
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
either the places by your inâ—ertions and additions are corrupted or that you haue violated them by diuorcing the words from their true intended Sense Which sense of their no doubt is different from that meaning and Construction which you haue imposed vpon them But to confes my ignorance I haue not at any ty 〈…〉 râ—d the former Authours And therefore I must refer this poynt for my fuller satisfaction to the iudgment of M. Vice Chancelour here present MICHAEAS I do assure your 〈◊〉 in all sincerity that the testymonyes of the former Protestaâ—ts are truly aledged without any s 〈…〉 〈…〉 ertion either of the Words or sense And hearein I appeale euen to M. Vice-Chancelour owne iudgment who if he can change me with any such willfull imposture but in any one of the passages aboue I will acknowledge my selfe guilty in all Besydes all the former Authours are long since departed out of this World and therefore my fault if any such were should be far more odious and insupportable since Christian Charity teacheth vs to treade gently vpon the graues of the deade VICE-CHANCELOVR Suppose Michaeas that we should grant that all the former Protestants did teach as you haue produced them for to speak the truth I cannot take any iust exception against your allegations and the lesse seeing I find some of our owne Brethren by you alledged and particularly D. Bancroft and D. Succlif to acknowledge with discontent their said sentences Yet seeing they were but certaine Metaphysicall and aery speculations only of Schollars men vnapt for a mes and Rebellions and not of any acting spirits Their doctrinall Comminations therefore as neuer being accompanied with any externall Acts of disloyalty are to be reputed the lesse dangerous to Princes and Magistrats And thus in regard hereof it may be truly said that the errour of those former Protestants hearein was but small though the poynt about the which they erred was great But the Case is far otherwyse with you Papists who do not only teach and warrant rebellion by your doctrine but also haue actually practized the same with greate effusion of innocent bloud to the amazement of all Christendom and irreparable dishonour of your owne Religion MICHEAS I will here speake with the Poët M. Vice Ch. mutatio nomine de te fabula narratur Since these your words do â—ustly recoyle vpon your selfe and your Religion And therefore euen to choake you irreplyably hearein I will present to your view the tragicall deplorable face of many stats and Countryes in Christendom ingendred from the former Protestants Principles In the contemplation whereof we shall find it a Mistery euer peculiar to diuers Protestant stats to cast of their loyalty and obedience that so either by one meanes or other they would either fynd right or make right to violate the bond of all souerainty as men speake of Hercules breaking Gorgons knot with whom it hath beene vsuall to grow wanton in shading of bloud for the more speedy establishment of their Gospell to the end then that these former doctrinal Theorems of Rebellion shall not become meare aery as it pleseth you M. Vice-Ch to tearme them I will truly and really incorporate them in diuers most lamentable Insurrections and outrages perpetracted by Protestant subiects against their Catholicke Princes Many of which Rebellions did receaue their first Conception and after their byrth euen from the violent incitemeÌ„ts and instigations made by diuers of the afore alledged Protestants Wryters in the mynds of the subiects against their Catholicke Leige Lords And in showing this I will first begine with England then Scotland and so I will passe to other more remote Countryes Now touching England Do wee not find that the aforenamed L. Archbishop D. Bancroft speaking of the attempts made in Q. Maryes tyme for aduancing of the Protestants Religion thus wryteth Sundry Englishmen did wryte hither meaning from Geneua sundry letters and books of this subiect That the Councellours of Q. Maries tyme Noblemen Inferiour Magistrats and rather then fayle the very People were bound before God to ouerthrowe superstition and reforme Religion whether Q Mary would or no yea Though it were by putting her to death And according herto we thus reade in the former booke of Obedience By Gods law and Mans lawe Q. Mary ought to be put to death as being a Tyrant a Monster and a cruell beast O poore and titulary soueraignty that is forced in these mens iudgments to be thus subiect to it owne subiects and to endure those opprobrious and contumelious tearmes from any one obscure Superintendent which ciuill Conuersation forbiddeth amonge Men of the meanest ranke and quality No supreme domination and rule whearewith Princes are inuested is lyke to hym from whom it selfe originally first streameth that is Absolute and independent and brooketh not the controule of any such whom God hath subiugated to it by lawfull subiection But to proceede from these former and other such elements and Principles of Treason it came to passe that one Wiltin Thomas with others conspyred to murther Q Mary for which offence he was hanged drawne and quartered that D. Crammer Archbishop of Canterbury partly for spreading seditious Books and cheifly vnder pretext of Religion for ayding the D. of Northumberland with horse and Men was sent to the Tower arraigned in the starrchamber attaynted of High Treason Finally that S. Thomas Wyat seconded with the D. of Suffoch attempted his treason against the said Q Mary only vnder the colour of erecting Protestancy But to leaue England and to come to Scotland Who is ignorant that Knox being instructed in this Art at Geneua returned into Scotland attempting to reforme Religion euen by open rebellion and force of armes and murthering the Cardinall in his bedchamber at S. Andrewes was conuented to appeare before the Queene Regent and for not appearing was proclaymed Rebell In like sort D. Bancroft thus further wryteth of Knox and his Confederats and followers They kept the field two months and tooke away to themselues the coyning irons and iustifyed the same c. They gaue the Queene the lye diuers tymes and vsed her with most despiâ—full speeches and reâ—ounced their obedience vnto her and depryued her of all further regiment by formall Act penned by Knoâ— The said D. Bancroft thus further enlargeth himselfe touching Knox and hi followers saying By the perswasion of Knox in his Sermon they did cast downe and destroy â—t S. Andrews both the houses of the Eryars and the Abbeys in that towne So dealâ— they with the Abbey of Scone the Fryars at Steâ—cling Luâ—quo and Edenburrough the Queene being fled thence for feare Thus D. Bancroft of these mens proceedings who not content in afflicting the said Queene in such rebellious a manner further extended their malice and Disloyalty in so high a degree to the last Queene of Scotland as that his deceased Maiesty her Sonne thus complayned thereof How
vs at what times some sensible degrees and increase of this supposed change did happen and the manifestatioÌ„ of these degrees is to be made by naming the time and person when by whoÌ„ such and such a particular poynt or article of our present Roman Religion was first sensibly introduced into the Church of Rome The which not any Protestant notwithstanding all his exquisite and precise search of Ecclesiasticall Histories hath bin able yet to perform And thus farre M. Doctour of these your similitudes which you see in a true ballancing of them do become rather hurtfull then beneficiall to your Cause and therfore they had ben better forborne by you then vrged D. WHITAKERS Indeede I grant that there are no Histories or Records at this day out of which we can certainly collect the change of Religion in the Roman Church But no doubt such Records there were though now wholy extinguished made away by the vigilancy and carefulnes of former Pâ—pes who to preserue the honour of their Church as free and exeÌ„pt from all change and innouation did deliberately purposely cause all Coppies of such writings and narrations to be for euer suppressed and buried in obliuion eyther by fire or otherwise CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour this is a meare groundles Phantasie If you haue any graue testimonies warranting a generall suppression of all such records then all of them were not extinguished since the testimonies which affirme so much are yet extant If you produce no authority witnessing so much then why should we beleiue your bare and naked affirmation herein But to examine more punctually this poore refuge And first wheras you teach that this change of Faith in the Roman Church came in by degrees now by innouating one point of the ancient true Fayth now another supposing for the time this to be true how can it be conceiued that all the Coppies of such particular changes in Faith already dispersed throughout all Christendome in the handes of infinite Protestants as you maÌ„taine though vntruly that in those times they were could be gathered suppressed without any remembrance thereof to all posterity It is most absurd but to furmise such an impossibility Furthermore do we not see that the liues of such Popes which can be lesse warranted were recorded in histories yet extant to this very houre as else where is intimated Neither the narrations of them either were or could euer be suppressed How then can we be persuaded that the memory of this supposed great chang could by any such meanes be cancelled in a perpetuall forgetfulnes Since certaine it is that the Popes if possible they could would haue caused all narrations touching the personall faults of their Predecessours to haue beene vtterly extinguished considering that such their lesse iustifiable liues might be reputed by many to be no smale blemisne to the Church of Rome Such an improbability this your euasion M. Doctour inuolues in its selfe D. WHITAKERS My Lord It seemes you are very dexterous in warding all our instances and other arguments aboue produced to prooue the former presumed change But imagine for the time that we cannot alleadge out of any now extant authorized history examples of any knowne innouation imagine also that we cannot shew at what particular time and season the parcels of these changes did happen imagine lastly that there were neuer any records testimonies or writings in which these changes were registred yet how are you able to put by the sharp-poynted weapon of Scripture wherwith your religion is mortally foyled We know that the Fayth of the present Roman Religion is repugnant to the holy Scriptures to which only wee appeale and whose â—autarceia and all sufficiency is defended by vs Protestants the sacred Scripture being to vs more then decaplês apologia a tenfould shield of our fayth This I say we know and consequently we further know that the fayth of the Romish Church is not the same which was planted in Rome by the Apostles Here is our fortresse here is our strength and this place to you Romanists is maccessible Here we haue Tò retòn the Word epi tèn dianeian tóùr etóù to the true meaning of the Word all Controuersies are to be referred And with this Word we are able to inflict Cairian pâ—etèn deadly to wound your popish Religion And we are so truely impatrônized of the holy Scripture as that wee dare pronounce with the Apostle If an Angell reach any other Ghosple vnto you then that which wee haue preached let him be Anathema For to vs it is sufficient by comparing the Popish Opinious with the Scripture to discouer the disparity of Fayth betweene them and vs and as for Historiographers Wee giue them liberty to write what they will seeing this aplóùs lógos tes ' aletheias this simple Word of truth is able to refute any thing brought to the contrary And therfâ—re my Lord Cardinall I must say to you here with Archidamus ' èt è◠dynamei próstheis ' e tóù phronématos ' ypheis either maÌ„taine your Religion with the force of Scripture or else wisely cease from the further defence thereof CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour before I come to ballance this your last argument you must pardon me if I smile to my selle to obserue how affectedly and ambitiously you haue rioted in your Greeke throughout this whole discourse and especially in this your last close besprinkling diuers passages thereof as it were with some Greeke word or other Which in my iudgment beare with me if I misconster your meaning is but to beare your ignorant followers in hand what jolly men and great Clarkes you Protestants are And according hereto we commonly find the bookes writen either by English French or German Protestants euen to swell with Greeke phrases or sentences But who seeth not how forced this is it being a point of ostentation and vanity thus to braue it forth in a froath of strange wordes We all know the tongues are but the porters of learning in which the Catholicks though with more cession modesty are most skilfull and that he who is a learned man indeede is euer presumed afore hand to be expert in them as being meanes conducing to the perfection of learning Thus the want of Greeke is a great defect the enioying of it but a necessary furniture of a scholar Therefore who vanteth hereof or is become fond of a few greeke words being commonly ignorant of the riches contayned in that tongue as many Protestants are is like to that man who taketh delight in a litle Mother of Pearle he reioiceth he hauing no interest to the Pearle within contayned I speake not this but that it is lawfull sometime to make vse of Greeke phrases and sentences but this chiefly when the QuestioÌ„ is touching translations out of that tongue and that we are to recurre to the Greeke being the originall for the cleering of that point Or when the
Greeke word or phrase carieth with it a greater grace emphecy and force then the same in Latin or English will beare But this I euer auerre that to be ready vpon euery little occasion to prostitute or staule forth ones Greeke a disteÌ„perature peculiar to Protestants as if he tooke a pride in that he is skilfull in coniugating of typtò This man I say deserues to be verberated throughout all the moodes and tences of the word for such his folly This course being among all graue learned men iustly censured for an exploded vanity But now M. Doctour to descend to your reason touched aboue and drawne from the authority of the holy Scripture Here I say you haue taken your last Sanctuary not in that the Scripture maketh for you and against vs but that by this meanes you may the better reiect all other authorities though neuer so forcible reduce the triall of all coÌ„trouersies to your owne priuat Iudgments since you will acknowledge no other seÌ„ce of the scripture theÌ„ what the Genius of ProtestaÌ„cy doth vouchsafe to impose vpon the Letter thus by your faire pretended Glosse of the Scripture in this your last extremity you Protestants well reseÌ„ble that Man who being ready to fall thinketh not how to preuent the fall but how to fall in the fayrest and easiest place The like I say you do vnder the priuiledge of the reuealing spirit interpreting the Scripture the vaine fluctuating vncertainty of which Spirit to discouer though this place be not capable therof were indeed to cut in sunder the cheife Artery which giueth life to the huge Body of Heresie since once take away this Priuate Spirit Heresie is but like a dying laÌ„pe which hath no oyle to feede it Only I will here pronouÌ„ce that as some haue thus left written That must be good which Nero persecuteth so here I do iustify by the contrary that it must be euill and false which the Priuate Spirit affecteth and manteineth But let vs proceed herein further and dissect the veine of this your last most despayring tergiuersation First then wee are to call to minde that it hath euer beene the very countenance and eye of all innouation in religion to seeke to support it selfe by misapplyed and racked Texts of Scripture a practise so anciently vsed though in these later dayes it hath receaued more full groath as that it was obserued by Augustine Hierome Tertullian and finally by old Vincentius Lyrinensis who thus expressely writeth not only of his owne times but euen in a presaging spirit of our times An Haeretici diuinis Scripturae testimoniis vtantur Viuntur planè vehementer quidem Sed tantò magis cauendi suâ—â— Now this being so you are forced M. Doctour for your last retire and refuge to compart in practise with all ancient and moderne Hereticks Secondly the Scripture cannot prooue it selfe to be scripture and consequently it is not able to decide all controuersies which assertion of mine is warranted by your prime men M. Hooker thus teaching Of things necessary the very cheifest is to know what bookes wee are bound to esteeme holy which poynt is confessed impossible for the scripture it selfe to teach And according hereto you Protestants do not agree which Bookes be Canonicall Scripture which Apocriphall For doth not Luther and diuers of the Lutherans recite as apocriphall the booke of Iob Ecclesiastes the Epistle of S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the secoÌ„d Epistle of Peter the secoÌ„d and third of Iohn and finally the Apocalipes All which bookes are neuerthelesse acknowledged by Caluin and the Caluenists for canonicall Scripture Thirdly euen of those bookes which all Protestants ioyntly receiue as Canonicall Scripture the Protestants doe coÌ„demne as most false and corrupt not only the present originals but also all Translations of the said bookes whether they be made in Greeke Latin or English as apeareth from the reciprocall condemnations of one anothers Translation for the more full discouery of which point I referre you M. Doctour to the perusing of a booke some few yeares since written by a Catholicke Priest and Doctour of diuinity entituled The Pseudoscripturists Fourthly the very text and letter of such bookes as you all acknowledg for Canonicall Scripture are more cleere for our Catholicke Faith and in that sence are expounded by the ancient Fathers then any the Countertexts are which you produce to impunge our doctrine For some tast I will exemplify the perspicuity of the letter in some few points And first for the Primacy of Peter we alleadge Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I will build my Church c. expounded With vâ—by Augustine Hierome Cyprian others For the Reall Presence we insist in our Sauiours words This is my Body this is my Blood taken in our sense by Theophilact Chrysostome the Cyrils Ambrose and indeed by all the ancient Fathers without exception For Priests remitting of sinnes we vrge that whose sinnes you shall renut they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes you shall reteine are reteyned which passage is interpreted in our Catholicke sence by Hierome Chrisostome Augustine and others For Necessity of Baptisme Except a a Man be borne againe of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdome of Heauen Of which our Catholicke exposition see Augustine Chrisostome Ambrose Hierome Cyprian c. For Iustification by works Do you see because of works a man is Iustisied and not by Faith only expounded with vs to omit all others for breuity by Augustine Lastly to auoid prolixitie for vnwritten Traditions we vsually alleadge those words of the Apostle Therefore Brethren hold the Traditions which you haue receiued either by steach or by Epistle interpreted with vs Catholicks by Damâ—scene Basill Chrysostome c. Thus farre for a â—ast herein in which Texts and diuers others omitted you are to note M. Doctour first that the Texts themselues are so plaine and literall that the very Thesis or Conclusion it selfe mantained by vs is conteined in the Words of the said Texts and therefore you Protestants are forced by way of answere commonly to expound those texts figuratiuely Secondly you are to be aduertised here that as we can produce many Fathers expounding these and other like places in our Catholicke sence so you are not able to alleadge any one approoued Father among so many interpreting but any one of the said passages of scripture in your Protestant Construction Thirdly and lastly you are to obserue that such texts as the Protestants vrge against these other Catholicke Articles defended by vs are nothing so literall plaine and naturall for their purpose but for the most part are vrged by them by way of inference and deduction which kinde of proofs is often false and sometimes but probable Neither can you or
say as of the halfeblood to a Protestant so little affinity there is betweene the Protestants Religion and these Mens religion I grant that some Protestants and these but very few and of meane esteeme do instance through their security of better examples in these your mentioned men but how coldy and weakly we will now discouer And first touching the Booke written against Images in the name of Carolus Magnus I say first that booke concerneth only but one point of Religion and consequently it can giue no proofe of Protestancy in those dayes Secondly I auer that it was forged by some Heretike that denyed the doctrine of Images perhapps in those dayes but neuer made or allowed by Carolus Magnus This I prooue first because Carolus Magnus was wholy addicted and deuoted to the Church of Rome and it fayth in generall And therefore the lesse probable it is that he should wrâ—t or suffer to be written in his name any booke inpugning but any one point of that Religion I will relate the words of Hospinian the Protestant touching his affection to the Catholicke fayth Thus be sayth Carolus Magnus nonsolum publicis edictis c. Charles the Great did not only command by publike Edicts that the Ceremonyes rites the Latin Masse of the Church of Rome and other decresse and Instituts of the Pope of Rome should be obserued through out the whole Empyre but also himselfe did force the Churches to these obseruations vnder payne of impresonments and other kinds of punishments with whom also conspireth in iudgment herein Crispinus M. Cowper and Osiander Secondly in that it is acknowledged by learned writers that Carolus Magnus was an enemy to those who impugned Images For Paulus Aemilius witnesseth that Carolus did send twelue Bishops vnto a Councel houlden at Rome vnder Pope Steuen in confutation of the errour of the Grecians against Images The same doctrine of Images as defended by Carolus is further confessed by the Centurists D. Cowper and by Ioannes Aurelianensis who liued in the tyme of Carolus Magnus Thirdly and lastly there are suspicious of the forgery of that Booke For it appeareth out of the booke of Pope Adrian to Carolus Magnus which booke was purposely written against that booke diuulged in Carolus his name that the said booke was then written by some secret enemy of Images a point so euident that Caluin intimateth the vncertainty of the Authour of that Booke thus saying Eâ—tat refutatorius liber sub Caroli Magni nomine c. There is extant a booke of refutation vnder the name of Carolus Magnus which we may easily gather to be made about that tyme so doubtfully and irresolutly Calum writeth of the authour of that Booke Touching the supposed booke of Beriram written de Corpore Sanguine Domine and dedicated to Charle the Bawld as said to impugne the doctrine of the Reall Presence in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist Which booke some thinke to haue bene forged by Oeculampadius in the name of Bertram I say M. D. first this booke writeth so doubtfully and intricatly of the Reall Presence vsing the words figure spirituall and Mystery with such qualifications as that no strong Argument against the Reall Presence can be drawne from thence yea which is more this booke so much fauoreth the Reall Presence as that the Centurists do thus censure of it Transubstantiationis semina habet Bertramus The booke of Bertram hath in it the seedes of Transubstantiation Secondly the Catholicke wryters of those tymes as Hospinian relateth at large did honour Bertram as a holy Martyr of the Catholicke Church How then is it probable that Bertram should wryte a booke against one of the cheifest Articles defended beleiued by the said Church Thus far of Bertram Touching Vlricke who was Bishop of Augusta who is vrged for a Protestant in that it is supposed he should wryte an Epistle to Pope Nicolas in behalfe of Priests Mariage and printed lately at Basill We reply that by force of all Reason this Epistle is but forged by some enemy of the Roman Church in his name and was written diuers yeares after Pope Nicolas was dead or before that Vlrick was borne For as Onuphrius writeth Pope Nicolas the first to whom it is supposed Vlrick should write was elected Pope anno 858. enioying the same nyne yeares and two months dyed anno 867. Whereas Vlrick was not made Bishop of Augusta till anno 924. Which was after the death of Pope Nicolas And he contemning Bishop fifty yeares dyed anno 973. Of which point we may reade Vspergensis Cytraeus Pantaleon D. REYNOLDS But what say you Michaeas touching Burengarius I hope it cannot be denyed but that he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation MICHAEAS I come to Burengarius who liued anno 1051. and was Archdeacon of Angiers who is challenged for a Protestant for his deniall of Transubstantiation in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist I answere first It is true that for a time he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation yet afterwards he recanted his Heresy therein and dyed most Catholicke in that Article Secondly I answere that this Heretick-Catholicke Berengarius did hould diuers errours euen in the iudgment of Oecolampadius the Protestant who thus writeth of him Berengarius non nulla affirmat aduersus Baptismum parnulorum coniugium Berengarius affirmeth diuers things against the Baptisme of Infants and Marriage And againe Damnata est Berengarij Opinio Sacerdotio Christiano parum minus tribuens The Opinion of Berengarius is condemned which ascribed ouer little to Christian Priesthood Also Papir Masson in his Annals of France writeth that Berengarius and his followers denyed the grace of Baptisme denyed that men committing mortall sinne could euer obtaine Pardon and further that Berengarius was an enemy to Mariage Thus much of Berengarius his owne and his followers Heresyes though himselfe before his death according to the iudgment of certaine Catholicke Writers recanted his Heresyes But M. D. and you Gentlemen I will conclude this passage with recurring to one obseruation aboue set downe suppose therefore for the tyme that these former bookes were doubtfull but truly penned by the Authours vnder whose name they go suppose also that Berengarius had neuer recanted his heresy in denying of Transubstantiation suppose finally that you may alledge diuers other sectaryes houlding this or that point of Protestancy yet what can all this conuince It can neuer proue any Visibility of the Protestant Church seeing all these thus admitted are but the Examples of one or other priuate Man who was originally Catholicke and after embraced some one or two points of Protestancy still remayning in all other articles wholy Catholicke And therefore I much commend the Ingenuity of D. Fulke herein who foreseing the impertinency of these Examples of Bertram Berergarius and those others reiecteth them in these
power of Magistrats doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases c. And further Beza m roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey hym that is Satans slâ—ue And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza he saith a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats To contract this poynt touchinge Beza Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his Pâ—rplaceâ— mihi c. It pleaseth me very much that you wryte that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe in the said epistle Si pijs semper expectandum putas dum lupi vltro cedant c. Yf you thinke we must stay the delayes of godly men till the woulâ—es do freely depart or are driuen away by publyke authority I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein c. And if we had made such delayes What Churches should wee haue had at this day Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt concerning both which in generall I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft passed vpon them both who thus wryteth He that shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war of peace of subiection of reformation without staying for the Magistrate Thus he Next we will come to kâ—ox who thus teacheth Reformation of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes Princes for iust cause may be deposed Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words Yf Princes be tyraâ—ts against God and his Truth their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence Of all which passages of Knoâ—see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein for thus he teacheth The People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with â—at more debasing spyte he thus egurgiâ—ates his veâ—ome It were good that rewards were appointed by the People for such 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants as commonly there is for those which haue killed vulues Finally Bucanan affirmeth that People may arraigne their Prince Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester who in his Sermon at Pooles Church termeth these two men The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers yet no part thereof conceâ—neth the Church of England or it Members Our Church remayning most incontaminate fâ—ee and spotles from the lâ—ast tuch of disloyalty And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid concerneth vs litle you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs who wholy disclayme from the same MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Pardon me if I heere do say you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance For first are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther Swâ—nglius Caluin Beza and the others aboue mentioned If you be not then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being If you be of the same fayth must you not then confesse that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince Secondly it is ouer manifest that the Church of England I speake of some members thereof only not of all doth stand most chargeable with the same crime In proofe of which point I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury D. Bancroft who in one of his Books thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point saying I omit their desperate courses of deposing Princes and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation The generall summe was this That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it the Ministers the inferiour Magistrate the People c. might set it oâ— fooâ—e themselues Of these and such like arguments diuers bookes he meaning made by English protestants were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua to be there then printed in English and to be published in England c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme thus writeth Goodman Whitingam Gilby the authour of the booke of Obedience with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes urged all states by degrees rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues then to suffer such Idolatry Superstition remayne in the Land But to descend more particularly to this Goodman He was a forward Protestanâ— in Queene Maryes tyme did write a booke of this very subiect as D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe affirme Thus hereof he wryteth as D. Bancroft alleadgeth his sentences If Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes and commanâ— others to do the like then haue they loâ—â— honour and obedience and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats but to be examined accused condemned c. And more It is not sufficient for subiects not to obâ—y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes but to withstand them also And yet more plainly Euill Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect there was also in the said times an other Booke made against the authority of Princes and entituled Of Obedience Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe in which booke we thus read Kings haue their authority from the People and by occasion the People may take it away agayne And more By the word of God in a manifest defection meaning of fayth and Religion a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant Marke you not how he doth Rauiliac it And finally It is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants But I will wade no further in this argument For I much feare that the afore vnheard and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge Only I must note that among the aboue mentioned Protestants some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes others with aâ—â— contempt and disgrace yet all of them alledged do with one the same eye or countenance indifferently looke vpon this principle to wit That Princes in some cases may be deposed such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces we obserue great disproportion in one and the same proportion LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Michaeas I must confesse that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants touching the deposing of Princes are most strange and indeede distastfull vnto me But it well may be that
Churches is taught as true and warrantable doctrine by diuers learned Protestants as by Cempnitius by Luther and Brentius Iacobus Andreas c. But now I will conclude this discourse touching Images with a most authenticall and strange miracle wrought by the Image of Christ and recorded by Eusebius Theophilact and Zozemene all auncient graue Wryters whose authorityes herein if we reiect we reiect by the same reason the proofe of all other things recorded by auntient Historiographers It was this The woman whom our Sauiour cured of the bloody flux caused to be made a brazen Image of Christ at the foote whereof did spring a strange hearb the which hearbe after it did ascend so high as to touch the scirt of the Image it had vertue to cure all diseases Which vertue no doubt God would not haue imparted to the Hearbe but only in manifestation that due respect might lawfully be giuen to the Image of Christ And thus far touching the Catholicke doctrine of Images Touching Prayer to Saincts TOuchinge Prayer to Saincts I will deliuer the Catholicke doctryne thereof in certaine Propositions which Propositions may searue as certaine graduall stips or degrees of this Controuersye The first Proposition may be this It is not lawfull to pray to Saincts as authours or principall dispensours of diuine benefitts to obtaine from them either grace or glorye or the meanes of obtaining our Eternall felicitie much lesse the Crawne of glory or heauen it selfe Since in this sense to pray to them were according to the iudgment of S. Austin and all Catholicks to make Saincts Gods And therefore if at any time the words directed to Saincts should sound otherwyse as when we say Our Lady healpe me c. We are heare to insist in the sense not in the naked words That is Our Lady healpe me by her intercession and prayers to her sonne and no otherwyse Euen as we fynd that S. Paule saith of hymselfe If I may saue some of them meaning of the Gentills And againe the sayd Apostle saith of hymselfe To all Men I am become all things that I might saue all meaning to saue all not as God but only healping them and furthering their Saluation by his preaching to them and by his prayers for them Which words of the Apostle being truly vnderstoode may searâ—e well to stop the Mouths of the Protestant Ministers for their often mistaking and misinterpreting of the Catholicke Doctrine touching prayer to Saincts The second Proposition Saincts are not our immediate Mediatours by way of intercession with God But whatsoeuer they demande or obtayne of God for vs they demaund and obtayne it through Christ and his Merits And according hearto we find that all the Prayers of the Church which are made to Saincts end with this clause Per Christum Dominum nostrum For we willingly acknowledge that no Man coÌ„meth to the Father by the Sonne And that their is but one Mediatour of Redemption though all the Saincts may be tearmed our Mediatours by way of Intercession The third Proposition The Saincts which reigue with Christ do pray for vs and this not only in generall but in particular That is for particular Men and for the particular Necessityes of the same Men. This is proued first from those words in Ieremy If Moyses and Samuel shall stand before me my Soule is not towards this People From whence it is inferred that Moyses and Samuel then being dead might and were accustomed to pray for the People of Israel Secondly the same is proued from the Example of Angells who do pray for vs and haue a care of vs in particular as appeareth out of seuerall passages of Scripture But if the Angells do pray for vs then much more Saincts seing so far forth as appertayneth to this function nothing is wanting to the Saincts in Heauen which Angells haue for they are endued with Intelligence or Vnderstanding and with Will they are euer in the presence of God they loue vs vehemently and finally they are equall euen with Angells Besids some priuiledges they haue in this point which are wanting in Angells to wit that Saincts are more conioyned and vnited members of the body of the Church and that they haue tryed our dangers and Miseries which Angells haue not Thirdly the former Proposition is proued from the many apparitions of Saincts which haue euidently testified that they do pray for vs euen in particular Of diuers such particular Apparitions See Eusebius Austin Basill Gregory Nazianzene Gregory Nyslene and Theodoret all which testimonyes of so auncient and reuerend Fathers to reiect touching matter of fact by answearing that all such relations are fabulous is in effect and by necessarie inference to take away all authority of Ecclesiasticall and humane Historyes The fourth and last Proposition Saincts and Angells are religiously and profitably inuoked and prayed vnto by liuing Men. This is proued First Wee reade that Iacob blessing the sonns of Ioseph thus saith The Angell which hath deliured me from all Euill blesse these Children wheare we see that Iacob expressly inuoketh these Angell Againe we reade thus in Iob. Call if any will answeare thee and turne to some of the Saincts Wheare by the word Saincts he meaneth Angells according to the exposition of Sainct Austin Secondly this last Proposition is proued from that that in both the Testaments the Liuing were inuoked and prayed vnto by liuing as in the first Booke of the Kings and in the last of Iob. In lyke sort in the Epistle to the Romans S. Pauli thus saith Brethren I beseach you that you all healpe me in your prayers for me to God Which Kynd of prayer the Apostle vseth in the Epistle to the Ephesians in the first to the Thessalonians in the second to the Thessalonians in his epistle to the Colossians to the Hebrewes So familiar and vsuall was this to S. Paull Therefore from hence I conclude that now it is lawfull to inuoke and pray to the said Men being now Saincts and raigning with Christ This Inference is most necessarye demonstratiue For if it be not now lawfull to pray to them It is either because the Saincts now in Heauen will not healpe vs with their intercession to God But this is not so seing the Saincts in Heauen enioye greater Charity then they had heare vpon earth Or els in that the Saincts cannot healpe vs with their prayers And this lesse true for if they could afore healpe vs with their prayers they being then but Pilgrims much more now they being arryued into their Country Or els because they do not know what we pray or demaund of them But this is false for looke from whence the Angells do know the Conuersion of sinners for which they so much reioyce in Heauen as we reade in S. Luke from the same source or wellspring