ReuelatioÌ„s of the holy spirite which are most certaine and of no lesse assurance And so lastly touching our Answeres to be out of the first matter or spéeche If they be so so also are the Demaundes Obiection The Conclusion is whether euery one ought to be beléeued saying he hath a particulare Reuelation of the holy spirite without Declaration otherwayes that there be holy Scriptures and that there is difference betwéene the same Let euery one be iudge whether the Demaundes and Aunsweres be pertinent to this difficultie or not like as also whether the one importe more credite and beléefe than the other as the one béeing a newe Doctrine shewes not any proofe more than the other of their particular inspiration Aunswere In our former Answers we haue declared howe the Reuelations supposed by particulare persons ought to be examined by suche meanes as they may be discerned whether they be of Gods spirite or not Héere Doctor Vigor intercepted his further spéeche saying that in the discourse aforesaide he vnderstoode muche matter in the mynisters Aunswers to be against the woorde of God as where it is sayde that first the Sonne must be honored afore the father which Spyna mainteined to be vndoutedly true alleaging that proposition to haue his ground and authoritie on the holy scriptures as in the gospel and first Catholike of S Iohn Whervnto Vigor Replies that in the saide places is not founde this woorde firste albeit in respecte not to incident the matters alleaged in the beginning of the conference he wil forbeare for the present to enter into Confutation reseruing that charge til the ende of al the conference Aunswere Spyna requires Doctor Vigor to coate the places of scripture which he pretendes to be contrary to the contentes of his Aunswere And to iustifie his opinion to glorifie first the Sonne afore the Father according to the testimonie of the textes afore noted he preferres this reason grounded and drawne out of the Scriptures we can not knowe the Father onlesse we haue knowne the Sonne we can not glorifie the Father onlesse we haue knowne him by which the consequence foloweth that the knowledge and glorie of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glorie of the Father which being referred by Vigor to be more amplie debated in the conclusion of the whole conference Spina was also content Obiection Vigor Obiectes without entring further into this disputation that by the selfe same reason inferred by Spina it foloweth that we must honoure the Father afore the Sonne for by the Father we come to the knowledge of the Sonne as appeareth by the woordes of our Lord to S. Peter Caro sanguis noÌ„ reuelauit tibi sed pater meê° qui in coelis est The same aduouching manifestly that the heauenly Father reuealed to S Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon Vigor argues in this sorte whether the reason of Spina be vaileable by the Father we knowe the Sonne therefore muste we firste honoure the Father afore the Sonne Aunsvvere To followe the order of the knowledge which we oughte to haue of Iesus Christe and his Father propouned to vs in S Iohn we must begin by the Sonne and from the Sonne to the Father For S. Philip desiring him once to shew to him and his companions his Father He answered Philip who hath seene me hath also séene my Father the same teaching that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is a former knoweledge of the Sonne which may be also approued by the Authorities of other places where Iesus Christe saithe that none knoweth the Father but the Sonne and he to whome the Sonne wil reueale him And to aunsweare the Authoritie of S Mathewe alledged by Vigor Spina saithe that the place by him produced contained no mention of the knowledge of the Father nor the meane to come thereunto but only of the Reuelation which was made by the grace of God and his holy spirite to S. Peter and his other companions to know Iesus Christ and in him his Father Whereupon Vigor calles vppon the iudgemente of the Auditorie whether this be an Answere to his Obiection reseruing notwithstanding till an other conference to handle this pointe more largely if he wil mainteine it as not now to incident that which hath bene proponed whereunto Spina consentes Vigor addes further vpon an Answere made by Spina where he vsed a difference betweene the Reuelation certaine by the Lorde to a particulare man and the holy Scripture in which Aunswere he seemes to put a maruell the rather for that there is no Faithe giuen to holye Scripture but only that the Lorde is the Author thereof who can not lie euen so if a particular man be assured that a Reuelation is made to him by the Lord or that a persone be assured of the Reuelation made to an other be bound asmuch to giue faith to the Reuelation as to the scripture the which matter also he will not as he may amplie handle and deduce but falles eftsoones vpon the first Question which as yet hathe not bene resolued to the which he prayes Spina to aduaunce and prepare himselfe Aunswere The cause of Vigors maruell touching the Reuelation of the Lorde and the woorde to be thinges differing produced in one of Spinas Answeres moues in that he conceiues not the sense and meaning of the spéeche For Spina wil not put a difference touching the certaintie betweene the true Reuelations of the Lorde and the woorde whiche proceeding from him is no lesse true than the Reuelation and the Reuelation of Reciprocal Faithe with the woorde and yet it followes not for all that that the woorde and Reuelations of Goddes spirite by whiche we may be ledde to the vnderstanding of the woorde be not things differente and that the one goeth not afore the other And touching Vigors request to prepare to the pointe he Aunswereth that he can not frame or draw his Answers from other grounde than the Demaundes that are made him To this Vigor Replied that touching the sense he layeth him selfe vpon the contentes of Spinas Aunswere And where he saithe that the woorde goeth afore the Reuelation that deserues not to set a difference vppon the question propouned And touching the matter of the pointe Vigor Demaundes if a persone may be assured that he hath the Reuelation of the Lord or that a Booke be a Booke of holy scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inwarde inspiration And lastly how he may assertaine any of this inspiration which he hath of the Lord. Aunswere The first Article of the last demaunde is not a thing impertinent to distinguishe the scripture from the interpretation of the same seeing they are matters diuers and sundry giftes of the lord And to answer that part of the demaund how a particulare man hauing in his heart the Reuelation and inwarde witnesse of Gods spirite may knowe that it is Canonical the spirite of God is
Neuers made request that after their Obiections and Aunsweres they would procéede to Resolution on both sides touching the conference the day before According to which motion the Doctors say that to iudge of a Booke whether it be written of the holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a Canonicall Booke from an Apocriphal or Ecclesiastical we must not rest vpon a priuate or particulare inspiration because a singulare persone can not haue any ordinarie certaintie that it is a true Reuelation of the holy spirite but stay vpon the common consent and accorde of the vniuersal churche And also that God notwithstanding he might haue reuealed to euery one the true knowledge necessary to saluation yet he hathe ordained a certaine meane to attaine to faithe which is a truthe reuealed meaning by the hearing of Gods woord preached by lawfull ministers sent by the pastors of the true churche as appeareth by the â—exte of S. Paule to the Romaines .10 and Ephes 4. So that if they meane to haue faithe and inwarde Reuelation of the knowledge of saluation come by the hearing of Gods woorde lawfully preached by the ministers of the same according to the ordinarie meane of assurance that we haue the inwarde Reuelation it must necessarily be assured that the woorde by which faithe is gotten hath bene preached by the lawfull ministers of the true church so by consequence be assured of the church afore the inward Reuelation obseruing the meane which Iesus Christe folowed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inwarde Reuelation is when it is referred to the common consente of the church And that of the contrary euery preteÌ„ded inward inspiration particulare or priuate is a false persuasion if it differ from the common accorde of the churche for Gods spirite is not particulare but common They say also that to take a false Doctrine we must examine it to know whether it be priuate or common like as our Lord in S. Iohn 8. hathe giuen a true marke saying Qui de se loquitur mendatium loquitur he that saith any thing of himselfe and his proper inspiration is a lier In like sorte it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man Prophecie against the Prophetes of Israel which Prophecie say to suche as Prophecie in their heart heare the woorde of the Lorde So saithe the Lord cursse be vpon the false Prophets who follow their spirite and haue seene nothing And a little after they sée vaine things and a Diuination ful of dreames saying the Lord saythe and the Lord sent them not and yet they haue giuen assuraunce to confirme the woorde of their Prophesie which false Prophets said they had 〈◊〉 inwarde Reuelation and the woorde of God. They woulde also that it be well wayed and considered that the stay of religion grounded and assured vppon an inwarde inspiration is the foundation of many sectes of our time as Anabaptistes and Swinfeldiens who lay their Doctrines vpon priuate â—â—â—elations alleaging proper places to serue them as a grounde of their Doctrine which the ministers inferred yesterday as Ieremie in the .3 Chap. Ioel. 2. and S. Paule 1. Cor. 2. The which being considered by Brentius and Bucer they haue confessed that by the only tradition of the church we were ascertained of the Bookes of the holy scripture according to the Doctrine of the auncientes as S. Ierome who confesseth to haue receiued by tradition of the churche and by the same to haue knowne that there be foure gospels Origen also saithe asmuch who reciting the Canonical Bookes of the newe Testament saith I haue learned by tradition that there be foure gospels neither is there fouÌ„d any auncient catholike that hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of Bookes vpon his only priuate and particulare inspiration And S. August lib. confess ca. 25 â—seth these woordes Veritas tua Domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admouensne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur ca. And touching the Bookes of the olde Testament whiche the Ministers will not receiue as Canonical by the iudgement of their inwarde Reuelation the Doctors auouche that before S. Augustines time or at the least in his time in the vniuersall churche all the Bookes contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued as Canonicall according to the testimonie of the Councel of Carthage where S Augustine was present and also the Councell Laodicene the Doctors also saie that if by inwarde inspiration we must iudge of Bookes the Fathers that assisted those Councels had it or at leaste might persuade them selues to haue it with more assurance than many others But where the Ministers saie that by theire inwarde Reuelation they iudge that they are not Canonicall 〈◊〉 Doctors referre to iudgemente who oughte soonest to bâ—â—â—â—eued either the inspiration of the Auncientes receiued by the Churche by so many hundred yeres vntil this time or the priuate and particulare inspiration of the newe Ministers They saie further that they offer to proue that the Aunciente Fathers euen suche as wâ—â—e neare the Apostles time as Irenaeus S. Cyprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others vse testimonies of Bookes reiected by the Ministers euen in the proofe of the Doctrine against Heretikes yea S. Augustine him selfe in the seconde Booke of Christian Doctrine Chap. 2. puttes all those Bookes amongeste the Canonicalles as also Damascene in the fourthe Booke De Orthodoxa Fide Chap. 18. So that to knowe if a man haue the spirite of God to discerne and iudge of the Bookes of the Scripture it behooues to reste vpon the common consente and accorde of the Churche as being the ordinarie meane of God lefte for that effecte experience also whiche maie be made is a sufficiente Argumente to conuince that the Faithfull by the inwarde inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall Bookes from the pretended Apocryphall which mighte be easily verefied if there were here at this presente euen somme of the Religion pretended reformed to whom not hauing bene as yet instructed in the diuision of Bookes if those Bookes were presented whiche the Ministers holde for Apocryphal they would not distinguish them in any sort from the other Bookes of the holy Bible And vpon all they conclude that if a man haue Goddes sprite c. vt supra Aunswere Touching the firste Article the Ministers were neuer of opinion as appeares in their former aunsweres that their Religion was grounded vppon theire particulare Reuelations but vpon the woorde of God according as it is sette foorthe in the Writinges of the Prophetes and Apostles the truthe of whiche they saide was moste principally assured by the testimonie and Reuelation of the holy Sprite They saie also that Faithe is not the Truthe in proper speache but the persuasion of the Truthe whiche is taughte vs in the Scripture Like as also this Faithe is not of our owne getting but a pure
gifte of God. They saie further that the lawfull Ministers oughte to he sente not of Pastors pretended and whiche haue nothing of Pastors but the Title and name onely but of God as appeares in Ieremie where this marke is sette foorthe to knowe and marke a false Pastor when he insinuates him selfe or is sente of other than of God. Touching the Article folowing they saie that the true marke by which we maie iudge certainely of a Reuelation is rather the woorde of God than the consente of many bicause it happeneth many times that the multitude in the Churche declining from the woorde doothe wholy swarne and goe astraie as in the time of Micheas Iesus Christe and since in the time of Constance the Emperour Touching those Prophetes who folow and are ledde by their sprite as they that leauing Goddes woorde reste vpon the commaundementes and traditions of men or the vanity of their braine it is not to be douted that suche are not false Prophetes and to be eschewed and reiected onely wée muste vse greate difference betwene the Reuelations and testimonies of Goddes sprite and the vaine imaginations of the minde of men To that the Doctors alleaged that Heretikes as Anabaptistes and others serue theire turne to confirme theire errors with those places of scripture whiche the Ministers haue produced they denie not but it maie be so for that the Scripture being common maye be alleaged of euery one Neither oughte wée to staie vppon that whiche is produced but to weighe and examine howe and to what ende and pourpose it is alleaged by whiche will appeare the difference that is betwene the Ministers and heretikes Touching that whiche was inferred of Brentius and Bucers opinion that by the onely tradition of the Churche the Canonical Bookes maye be discerned from the Apocryphal the Doctoures séeme to miâ—â—erue their purpose with that seing they mainteine that all the Bookes of the Bible are Canonical and yet by their reporte of Brentius and Bucer it appeares that both the one and the other according to the Tradition as they saie do put a distinction calling the one Canonical and the other Apocryphall To the Article folowing wherein the Doctors alleage certaine places of the auncients to take away the difference betwéene the Canonical and Apocriphal Bokes the Ministers answere that as they haue alleaged certaine to proue it so also they are able to produce of the same for the disproofe as S. Ierome in his Prologue named Chaleatus and in an other which beginnes prater Ambrosiuâ— to whome writing the summe of euery Booke of the Bible he makes no mention but of those which the ministers call Canonicall They are able also to alledge two or three Cataloges recited in Eusebius who receiue not for Canonical Bookes but suche as the ministers them selues approue The Councell of Laodicen alleaged by the Doctors speakes for the ministers as not comprehending that wherof there is question and touching experience they Aunswere that it is a question de facto as being better to be alleaged againste the Doctors than the ministers Lastly to the ende no more time be spente in so often repetition of one selfe thing and that we prepare to conferre the pointes of the Confession which the Doctors wil debate the ministers declare that the .xxiiij. Bookes of the olde Testament which are in the Canon of the Hebrues with all the Bookes of the newe Testament be approued Canonical of the one and other parte and they are sufficiente to decide wholy all the pointes of their Confession and generally all that belonges to true religion neither haue they occasion by the meanes of that to delay any more the conference in respecte of difference betwéene the two parties touching the distinction of the Canonical and Apocriphal Bookes Obiection Notwithstanding the Ministers say their religion is fouÌ„ded vpon the woorde of God yet they grounde Gods woorde vpon inward Reuelation so that Reuelation is the ground of the woorde and consequently of their religion for they receiue for the woorde but that which they thinke to be particularely reuealed vnto them Touching the other Article where they resiste the opinion of the Doctoures that Faithe is gotten by the hearing of Goddes woorde it séemes they offer to â—â—umble vppon small blockes as not to enter into the principall And where they alleage that faithe is a gifte of God and therfore not gotten it is moste manifest by many ordinarie textes of Scripture that it dothe not differ one thing to be giuen and gotten as the kingdom of heauen which is giuen to the blessed and yet we doe get it hauing true Faithe woorking by charitie the scripture also calles it the rewarde and recompence of good woorkes and S. Paule saithe that by liberalitie and almes men gaine the grace of God Yea there can be none other vnderstanding of S. Paules speache Fides ex auditu but that Faith comes by hearing Goddes woorde which is the obteining of the same by the meane of hearing it preached albeit it be a gifte of god They vse the like subteltie in going about to rebuke the opinion that Faithe is the truthe reuealed as putting a great difference betwéene the truthe reuealed and the Reuelation of truthe which subtiltie shoulde be of force against S. Paule who sayeth Panis quem frangimus nonne communicatio corporis Domini est which is as much as panis fractio nonne c. And therefore to speake properly the text of S. Paule must néedes lie subiecte to suche rebukes So that touching this Article to the ende not to incidente notwithstanding the Replie of the Ministers the Doctors will dispute no more of it as being a matter too muche impertinent séeing that in the ende it would procure spéeche of merito and so from one to another It gréeues them to enter vpon the vocation of the lawfull Ministers of the churche and therefore to auoide that question they will not alleage which they might without any superfluous discourse that afore their Doctrine be receiued they muste be examined whether they were lawfull ministers sent of the true church to preach Gods woord and to be heard of the people in their sermones according to S. Paules place alleaged heere before which if they of the newe Religion had well considered they might haue a moste sufficient argument not to receiue their Doctrine bicause it is no lesse cleare than the day that they are no Ministers sent by the Pastoures of the Churche but haue foisted in themselues to Preache and are not able to shewe any signe of their vocation either from men and muche lesse from GOD And if it were lawefull to euery one that saithe he is sent to Preache the woorde it were to raise infinite Sectes as wee see happeneth in this time and so they cease further spéeche in this Argument least they giue a greater heate to the matter Touching the Article declaring howe we may knowe a Reuelation to be of God which the ministers hold is
to pray to God in their beginning as they had desired were not taken awaye meanes for good order established the better to brydle the confusion of popular showtes and voyces as happen ordinarily in the Schooles of Sophisters and people inclyned to cauell Thys spéeche of the Lord Admirall kindled such a sense of reason in the Lorde of Neuers that induced chiefly by the spirite of God and partly by an heroycall instinct of heart laboring in desire to aspire to the direct truth of things hée became a sutor to their Maiesties that by their authoritie and suffraunce the sayde disputation might procéede and be eftsoones restored wherein as he preuayled to the full effect of his request and purpose so after he had ymparted wyth the Lorde Admirall the disposition of the King and Quéene they ioyned in deuise touching the order to be obserued in the sayd conference naming the sayde Lorde of Neuers and the Duke of Buyllon as Presidents of the place wyth certaine numbers of Gentlemen mutuall assistauntes to recorde and witnesse the manner of their procéedings prouyding lastly two Notaries of Parys for eyther side to subsigne and set downe in wryting the true discourse of eyther seuerall parties These condicions thus determined by the Lordes were also receyued of the Doctors Vigor and De sainctes for the Papistes and De spina and Sureau Ministers Assembling according to the appointment the ninth of Iuly at the Lorde of Neuers house where in hys presence and hearing of the reast of the assistants after the Ministers had prayed which the Doctors did shonne as retyring elsewhere till they had done Doctor Vigor vndertooke the first spéeche with protestation that neyther he nor his companion came thyther to enter argument with the Ministers in any néede or meaning to be instructed in pointes of religion and much lesse to impugne in any sort the counsels and specially that of Trent by which they were forbidden to dispute with Heretikes Assuring resolutely for themselues to abyde constantly in the fayth of the Church of Rome onely such was the request of the Lorde of Montpensier who to reclaime his daughter the Lady of Buyllon had procured that conference as they were the rather drawne thyther aswell to satisfie hym as also to declare their holy zeale to séeke and bring agayne to their flock such as were gone astray The Ministers for their partes protested lykewise not to be enforced to conference by any doubt they made in anye article of their confession as knowing the same to consent simplie and fully with the perfite worde of God but rather to strengthen and defende it agaynst the Sophistries of such as séeke to impugne it pretending also to kéepe and establish the sayde vertuous Ladie of Buyllon in that state and holye institution which Gods grace had happily instilled into hir These protestations thus mutually alledged the Ministers looked that the Doctors according to the meaning of the Lorde of Montpensier and desire of his daughter woulde beginne their disputation with the matter of the supper and the Masse albeit vsing the example and pollicy of such as pretending the siege and batterie of a towne beginne to raise their Trenches a farre off so they the better to prepare themselues to decyde and consult in the sayde two poyntes began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the church vpon the which they sought to establishe the certaintie of the articles of fayth and generally of all the holye scripture And so the demaundes and obiections passing from the Doctors and aunswers returned by the Ministers De sainctes began and Despina aunswered as followeth Question Vpon what doe you establishe your religion Aunswere Vpon Gods worde Question What vnderstande or meane you by Gods worde Aunswere The wrytings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doe ye receyue by their wrytinges all the bookes of the Byble as well of the olde as newe Testament gyuing to them all an equall authoritie Aunswere No but according to the instruction of antiquitie we vse distinction betwéene the Canonical and Apocryphall bookes calling such canonicall vpon whose doctrine both faith and all christian religion is founded and the other we name apocryphall as vpon whose authoritie we cannot establishe any article of fayth onely they are proper in respect of their notable sentences to instruct the state of lyfe and maners of christians Question Howe know you that the one are canonicall and the other apocryphall Aunswere By the spirite of God which is a spirite of discretion gyuing lyght to all such to whom it is communicated to make them capable of power to iudge discerne spirituall things and comprehende the truth when it is propounded to them by the testimonie and assuraunce which he kindles in their hearts wherein as we discerne the light and darkenesse by the facultie of the sight that is in our eye euen so being furnished with Gods spirite and guyded by the lyght which he kindles in our hartes may we easily deuyde and knowe the truth from deceyt and generally all other thinges which may contayne falshoode absurditie doubt or difference Question But some may vaunt to haue the spirite of God which haue him not lyke as we finde by the hystories that all the heretikes thought assuredly to haue the truth on their sides studying to authorize their doctrine by the inwarde reuelations which they fayned to receyue of Gods spirite by which may appeare what daunger it were to reappose or commyt the censure of a booke or doctrine to the testimonie of Gods spirite which a priuate man perswades or faynes to haue receyued in his hart Aunswere This perill is easily auoyded by the aduise of the Euangelist Iohn in his first Catholike as not to settle an indifferent beliefe to al spirites but rather to prooue and examine them diligently afore we admit them and then allow what they propownde wherein the examination which we ought to make in thys case is to consider first the ende of the doctrine that shall be pronounced purpose of any booke presented to vs For if it tende to rayse and establishe the glorie of God it is true according to the woordes of Iesus Christ in Iohn hee that searcheth Gods glorie is true and there is no iniustice in him in this viewe and examination we haue also to consider that if it consent with the proportion and analogie of fayth as Paule sayth it agrées fully with the chiefe groundes of religion Question All men say and may saye as much but for this reason it is an argument insufficient tyll I be warranted by effect and other proofes how I may rest and stay my selfe vppon it Besides this aunswere excéedes the lymites of the proposition as presupposing the scripture to be knowne to be the grounde of religion and the proposition was layde to giue the reason to assure me that the scripture was of God and that we must put a distinction betwéene the bookes of the same Aunswere
not different of him selfe and abiding in a particular man he shall alwayes acknowledge the Scripture that comes of him and which beares his markes And touching the second demaund we say also that the same spirite being in a third man shal acknowledge that aswell the woorde as the Reuelation are of him by the reasons alledged that is that Gods spirite in diuers persones is alwayes equal and like to himselfe Obiection This dothe not satisfie the firste Question proponed which conteined a demaunde how any man can iudge in him selfe that he hath the holy spirit to discerne and iudge a boke to be of the holy Scripture and an other not to be but Apocryphall and lastly how he can make demonstration to an other that he is possessed with this inspiration of God. Aunswere The spirite of God is called a seale in the Scripture for that the firste effecte he bringes forthe in the heart of him to whom he is communicated is to assure him of his presence And to assure a second of the Reuelation which we haue receiued of Gods spirite it is also easie for that the spirite of God which openeth the mouth of one to speake openeth also the eares of an other to heare his woorde the heart to beléeue him and himselfe to persuade it so that betwéene the maister and disciple the Doctor and the hearer being bothe furnished and lightened by Gods spirite there is also a mutuall concorde to knowe one an other Obiection Suche a certaintie is a great incertaintie neither is there any of what secte so euer he be who doth not assure him selfe to haue the holy spirite and truthe of his side which is a fond presumption howe may a man distinguishe a presumption from a true inspiration Aunswere S. Iohn Chrysostome saith that in vaine doth a man vaūte himselfe to haue the spirite withoute the woorde which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies and to iudge all matters that the heretikes and others would propounde vnder the authoritie and title of Gods spirite For as by this spirite we knowe the true sense of the woord euen so do we discerne mutually by the woord who they be that haue the spirite of God and who not Obiection This is no Aunswere to the Demaunde for there is no Question to examine the doctrine by the woord but to know that it be the woorde of God by whiche we wil examine the doctrine and approue it and how a man shall iudge assuredly that he hath a Reuelation of the Lord and that it be Gods woorde Aunsvvere If he be one of the faithfull he may iudge by Gods spirite that is in him as in him that telles it him And if he be of the vnfaithfull it is as impossible that he iudge as a blinde man to discerne coloures laid afore him bicause as S Paule saith it is by the spirite of God by whom we knowe and iudge the things that are of God. Obiection This Aunswere is yet insufficient to the Question produced wherof let the iudgement rest among the hearers and Readers But now wée put foorth an other demaund whether wee are certaine by Gods woorde that the Lord assistes his Churche and will assiste it vntill the consummation of the worlde And whether there be not more assurance to staie vpon the consentes and iudgement of the Church touching the determination of the Canonical Bookes of the holy Scripture and the distinction of the same from the Apocryphall than to rest vpon singular iudgement esteeming it to be an inwarde inspiration of the whiche there can be no proofe made but only by opinion that wee haue the holy sprite Aunswere The Doctors confuse the opinions of the fantastical sort with the testimonies and Reuelations of the Holy Sprite notwithstanding there is asmuch distinction betwene them two as from heauen to earth And touching the consente of the Churche supposed to procéede of the Sprite of God it is infallible and of no lesse certaintie than the particulare Reuelations of Esay and other Prophetes And because both the one and the other procéede of one Authour whiche is the Sprite of Truth the certeintie of the Reuelations of Gods Sprite made to al the Church in generall to euery particular member of the same conteine one self poyse weight Obiection The Ministers cannot conceale from the Catholikes or others but that they are fantastike as making no proofe of the Reuelation of the Holy Sprite made to them no more than other sectes doo And touching that pointe supposed that it proceedes of Gods sprit they seeme to dout of the assistance of the Holy sprite in Gods Church which as S Paule saith Est columna firmamentum Veritatis Wherein is to be wel considered that they hold them more certaine of the assistaunce of the Lorde in particulare than in the vniuersall Church by which the conclusion may folowe that aswel the particular faithful can neuer straie as also that he is a piller of truth no lesse than the vniuersal Churche besides in laying the particular Reuelations in equal ballaunce weight with the iudgement of the Church they doo openly impugne their confession of faith in the fourth Article wher it is thus written Wée know these Bookes to be Canonical a most certaine rule of our faith not so much by the common accord consent of the Church as the testimonies and inward persuasion of the holy sprite who makes vs discerne them from the other ecclesiastical Bookes By the said Article it is seene howe muche they doo attribute to them selues more than to the whole vniuersal Church which Article they doo now resist giuing asmuch to the one as to the other yea in the confession of faithe lastly printed the saide Article was taken awaye as appeareth by that whiche this daye Spyna hathe broughte hither printed at Geneua 1564. by whiche may be séene that they retracte them selues as confessing that it behooues more te staie vpon the common consents of the church than vpon particulare the same being reasonable séeing the holy sprite is promised to the vniuersal Churche and not to euery particulars man. Aunswere If the Ministers may be thoughte fantasticke notwithstanding they haue Gods woorde with better proofe the Doctors maie be holden such in matters which they mainteine and defende both without against Gods woorde touching the seconde pointe reprouing the Ministers that they dout of the assistaunce of the sprite of God to the Church your aunswere is that the dout is not there but to know which is the true Church For the third point where the Doctors allege that it maie be inferred that particular menne cannot erre the consequence is nothing woorthe bicause the Sprite of God maye sommetime departe from menne in whiche case they maye faile and erre as Dauid confesseth did happen to him To the fourthe pointe the Ministers aunswere that they impugne not in any sorte the Article alleaged of their confession bicause the Aunswere
to the nature of God and of the parte of the body doth implie no contradiction Then God can do it or else so God cannot do it then it foloweth that God is not almightie in this sorte is proponed the reason and deduction of the antecedent and consequent and also the proofe of the assumption or seconde preposition for it is proued that there is no contradiction in saying that one body may be in two places that it doth not impugne the nature of God whereof the proofe hathe bene made by the Example of like things as God may bring to passe that two bodies may be in one place with other like reasons which are deduced in the Obiection And where they say the Doctoures doe argue euil from a particulare to an vniuersal it seemes vnder correction they haue forgotten the rules of Dialectice as being most certaine that this rule hathe place in the affirmatiue and not in the negatiue But of the contrary when there is any thing affirmed generally and the default is proued in particular as say the Dialecticians Ad negationem perticularis sequitur negatio eius quod vniuersaliter affirmatum est In like sorte when any thing is affirmed of the whole which hath many partes and the default be proued in one parte the destruction of the whole foloweth As if one would say all the body is whole who would proue one part of that body diseased shuld proue this proposition false all the body is whole such is the manner of arguing which the Doctors haue made that is that if God can not do a particulare thing as to bring to passe that one body be in two places then he can not doe all things or if he can doe all things he can also doe that They are sory to be referred to their Dialecticke as consisidering none other end than to make the antecedent graunted which is that God can not bring to passe that one body be in two places wherein for their partes they are glad to vnderstand the Resolution of the Ministers vpon this Article which is that God can not bring to passe nor cā not wil that one body be in two places bicause it implies cōtradiction And where the Ministers say that the Doctors by their reasons can not inferre the truthe of the antecedent the Doctors confesse it by which the ministers also perceiue that the reasōs which they haue brought foorth are nothing woorth to the confirmation of the Antecedent which is their resolution But the Doctoures say that those reasons albeit they were not vailable yet were they brought forthe by the ministers to this end to proue the impossibilitie of God to bring to passe that one body should be in two places For the Article beginning touching the authorities c the Doctoures Obiecte that the Auncientes neuer thoughts to make any exception of any thing which is not subiecte to the power of God for as it is manifest he that saith all excepteth nothing so when the scripture saithe that God is almightie hir meaning is clear that there is no exception and to giue exception in this should be no lesse to gainesay many places of Gods woorde than to blaspheme his power But the Doctoures say that the Auncientes haue interpreted the omnipotencie of God not to comprehend that which toucheth the perfection of his nature but onely that which concerneth creatures So that there be not to manifest contradiction repugnancie of their parte The present Question importes not that there is not contradiction that one body be a body and that at one instant it be in diuers places For of the essence of bodies speaking of one body hauing his dimensions according to the phrase of the Philosophers de predicamenio quantitatis it is certaine that the Dimensions be of the essence of a body but to be circumscript and enclosed in a place is accidentall The same being declared by Philosophie for the moste high heauen according to his whole is a body and yet it is not in place according to his whole And therefore it is not a thing essentiall to a body to be enclosed in one place Wherein to speake of the present matter the Ministers should be muche encombred to proue that the body of Iesus Christe is in one place in Heauen séeing it is written in the fourthe of the Ephesians he is mounted aboue all the Heauens oute of the which there is no place as they speake of places in regarde of bodies according to nature And if it were so that it were essentiall to one body to be in one place according to the rule which the Ministers giue there wold followe an other blasphemie againste the omnipotencie of God that God could not make one body and bestow it aboue all the Heauens and to speake more vniuersally that God could not make a body without place equal to his greatnesse Touching the Allegations proponed by the Ministers of certaine Auncient authoures the Doctoures Obiecte that those Allegations make against themselues bicause to be enclosed in one place depends not of the essence of the body nor his dimensions as appeareth by the Authorities produced making mention of the Aungels who haue no bodies it it is not then an essentiall reason that the dimension of one body be contained in one place Neither dothe all this blonderment of Authorities make any thing to purpose séeing they tend not but to shew that the natural propertie of creatures is different from the nature Diuine as saithe S. Basile expressely in the place alleaged by the Ministers as S. Ambrose in the first Booke of the holy Ghost Chap. 7. where the saide Authoures declare that God of his nature may be euerywhere as his creatures by their natures not neither doo the said Authors pretend that God by his omnipotencie can not make one body to be in diuers places séeing euen very they or their like when they come to speake of the power of God in the holy sacrament affirme that Christes body is in heauen and in the holy Sacramente inueighing also by the same power that the Aungels and soules of the blessed may be in many places and the Doctours wil recite in their Resolution Where the Ministers saye that a Body muste be circumscripte of the place according to his essentiall propertie that hath bene declared false héere before And the Ministers confounde the name of a body which signifieth sometimes substance sometimes quantitie hauing his dimensions largenesse length and profoūdnesse which dimensions are essentiall in a body taking body for fourme of quantitie and not in a substantial body for then it is accidentall It is most certaine that God may seperate the accidents of a body make a substance without accidents otherwayes would folow an other blasphemie that God coulde not seperate the accident from a subiect and substance And where the Ministers say that by a violent mouing a stone may be throwne on highe it is not Aunswered to
he penetrate the grosse walles or great barre of woode that was betwene bothe It is moste true he entred without fiction or deceite Lette thy reason folowe and consider his Entrie and thy vnderstanding enter into the shutte house with him Thou seest that all is sounde and faste at the Locke and yet he was in the middest of his Disciples but that is bicause all things are open to him by his Omnipotencie Thou blamest things inuisible I aske thée againe the reason of that thing visible From the Walles or Gates firme nothing recules or giues place And yet I see of the contrarie the woode and stones by their nature cannot receiue suche entrie The Lordes Body was not vnmade to be made againe of nothing then from whence comes it that he was in the middest withoute opening the doore The sense and the woorde faile in this and the truthe of the acte is aboue mannes reason so that as wee are abused of the byrthe of the Sonne of God so doo wée also lye of that Entrie wée saie the facte is false and that it did not so happen bicause we are not able to vnderstande the reason and bicause our sense and iudgemente faile wée saie there was no suche facte but the Faithe beliefe of the facte conuinceth our dreame the Lorde was amidde his Apostles the house being shutte and the Sonne of God was borne of his Father doo not denie that he entred thus bicause by the infirmitie of the spirite thou arte not able to comprehende this manner of entrie I coulde amplifie like factes in all his creatures but the Lord hath wel forséene in him selfe to haue vs conteined in necessitie and modestie by the nature of our bodyes wée declare sufficiently that we woulde be an other God if wee had the power and bicause we cannot by the audacitie of our wicked will reuerse the nature of truthe at the leaste wée gainesaie it and raise warre with the woordes of God. S. Ambrose in his seconde Booke vppon S Luke the 24. Chapter saithe Throughe the doores S Chrysostome vppon S. Iohn proues by suche entrie that Iesus Christe was so borne of the Virgyn that shée remained a Virgyn in her deliuery and after without any breaking concluding that bothe the one and the other facte procéede of the omnipotencie of god The same Chrysostome in his seconde Homilie vpon the Symbol of the Apostles vseth these woordes how is it that Christe entred the gates being shutte c. bicause suche things are aboue vs and we cannot yeelde a reason of this miracle we holde it by Faithe S Ierome in his firste Booke against Iouinian and in his Epistle to Pammachius against the errours of Iohn Ierosolymitan who saide that Iesus had not a true Bodye after his resurrectiō bicause it was impossible a true body shoulde passe throughe the doores and that he was in the same place with an other body answeres that the same letted not that the nature of the body did not remaine bicause the acte procéeded of the almightinesse of God He vseth also these speaches tell me thou subtil disputer whiche is the greatest either to hang all the weighte and greatnesse of the earthe vppon nothing ballaunce it aboue the freighte of the waters or that God passe by a doore shutte and the Creature obeye his Creatour That whiche is the greatest thou wilt agrée vnto easily and whiche is the leaste thou reprochest S. Augustie in his thirtéenth Epistle for an example of Goddes Omnipotencie recites also this facte as in declaration aswell that our Lorde was borne by the Virgyn withoute any breaking of her Bodye as also that Goddes Almightinesse is greater than wée can comprehende S. Augustine also recites the same Facte in his Booke de Agone Christiano againste the Valentinians and others that denyed the true Substaunce of the Bodye of Iesus Christe bicause contrarie to the nature of Bodyes he did so passe and enter Amphilochius and Theodoret in the seconde Dialogue disputing of this deede againste Eutyches who helde also that after the Resurrection Christes Humanitie was transnatured into his Diuinitie bicause that against the nature of bodyes he passed in that order through the doores being shutte aunswere with the others that suche an effecte importes not contradiction to the nature of the bodye as procéeding of the Omnipotencie of God and not of the nature of the bodye Cyri◠in the 12. Booke vppon S. Iohn rebukes also suche as séeke to compasse the myracles and dooings of God according to their iudgements and propertie of creatures against whom he vseth sharpe speache S. Augustine recites in his firste Booke againste Iulian Chap. 2. that Iouinian was an Heretike in that he saide the Virgyns wombe was disclosed in her deliuery whiche he saide so for feare to fall into the Heresie of the Manicheans whose opinion was that Iesus had not a true body bicause he was borne without breaking of his mother so that to eschue this Heresie he did rather denie that the Virgyn remained a Virgyn This kinde of Heresie was also laide vppon Origen like as also some alleage that the Ancientes as Tertullian was of this opinion By these testimonies the Doctoures conclude that twoo bodyes to be penetrated and be in one selfe place by the Diuine vertue implies no contradiction whiche places if they were wel considered men would receiue no newe interpretation againste the expresse woorde of God seeing the texte beares simply that Christe came to his Disciples the doores being shutte It maye be séene easily howe Caluin in his Institution hathe depraued the sense of this place of S. Iohn with other like saying what so euer the worlde alleageth againe that Christe issued out of the Graue not opened it entred to his disciples the Chamber doore being shut is nothing woorth any more to mainteine theire erroure For as the water serued to Iesus Christe as a firme pauemente to walke vpon the Lake so we ought not thinke it strange if the hardenesse of the stone became softe to giue him place Beza also in his seconde Dialogue againste Hesshusius saithe The Stone became nothing to the ende the Lorde mighte passe to his Resurrection and then after God refashioned it It foloweth also in the texte of Caluin that to enter into a Chamber the doores being shutte is not to saie he pierced the woode but onely he made opening by his Diuine vertue in sorte that in a woonderfull manner he was in the middest of his Disciples notwithstanding the doores were shutte He saithe further whiche they bring in of S. Luke that he vanished suddainely from his Disciples whiche wente to Emaus it serues them for nothing and applies to our advauntage For to take awaye the sighte of his Body he is not made inuisible but onely is vanished as also the saide Euangeliste dothe witnesse when he walked he was not transfigured nor disguised as to be inuisible but he gouerned and helde their eies These friuolous and vaine expositions
firste place they alleage that God can not do a thing to derogate the order which he hath established in the world in the seconde that it were to establishe mutabilitie and chaunge in Gods councels to confesse that he is able to doe any thing contrary to the said order established in the world in the third that if it were so there should be contradiction in his will whereof should folow that he were a lier And for the fourth blasphemie that the power of God is his will and likewise his not power his not wil And for the fifth they pretende that God would haue a body which in one instant might haue bene in many places afore they beleue that God could haue made it otherwayes they meane to infer that he neither hath could nor can make it by which the Ministers will acknowledge nothing of Gods power but so muche as he shewes by effect for which matter they alleage Tertullian All these blasphemies are drawne out of the propre woordes of the first Article of the Ministers Touching the firste that God can not doe a thing to derogate the order he hath established in the worlde it is proued an apparant blasphemie by the Scripture who in infinite places makes mention of Gods works aboue nature which the Ministers call order established in the world the Scripture teacheth in proper termes the God can do infinite things aboue the order established in the world As the wife of Lot which was conuerted into a piller of Salte that a barraine woman in hir last age hauing an olde husband had a childe That a Vine all drie hathe flourished A shée Asse hath spoken that the Sunne stayed and went backe againe with other innumerable Examples contained in the olde Testament And for the new Testament that a virgin brought forth a childe That a body hath walked vpon the Sea and mounted to heauen and generally all the miracles done by Christ and his Apostles aboue nature the same being contrary to the order established in the worlde From this blasphemie growes an other that God séeing he hathe established his order in the world hath not done nor coulde nor can doe any miracle But to proue by the Authoritie of the scripture that God can do against the order established in the world it is writteÌ„ in Esay 50. My hand which is my power is it abridged that I can not redéeme buy againe is there no more power in me to deliuer Behold by threates I wil make dry the sea wil put the fluddes into the deserte so that the fishes shal perishe for wante of water and shal die of thirste I apparel the heauens with darkenesse and putte a sacke for their couer But more expressely in the newe Testamente where it is saide by S. Iohn that God can raise children to Abraham of the stones Which place albeit may be expounded Allegorically yet by the literall sense S. Iohn declares it was possible to God the Deuil knewe and hath confessed that if Christe were the true sonne of God he might transeforme stones into breade The same notwithstanding contrary to the order established in the worlde And we haue to note that there is no lesse impossibilitie that bread be turned into Flesh by Gods omnipotencie than a stone transnatured into bread Wherin for such as denie this last done by the power of God they declare that they beleeue lesse of the almightinesse than Deuilles The confuting of the seconde blasphemie dependes vpon the disproofe of the first for albeit God contrary to the order established in the world hath done many miracles as hathe bene recited héere before yet there is no mutabilitie or chaÌ„ge in his Councell Touching the third blasphemie that if God did any thing contrary to the order established in the worlde there shoulde be contradiction in his will and therfore he should be a lier The Doctoures Obiecte that it would folowe that suche should be the will of God neuer to doe any thing against the order established in the world and that he wold haue stayed and declared that to be his will by his woorde For otherwayes it coulde not haue bene knowne what was Gods will. And as the ministers neither haue nor can make appeare by Gods woorde that suche is Gods wil as not to do any thing against the order established in the world so they must firste teache and instructe that suche is Gods will afore they conclude that if God made one body to be in two places or other thing against the order of Nature established in the world he should be a lier Touching the fourth blasphemie that Gods power is his will and that his impower is his vnwill According to the sense which the ministers giue it if God can not doe but what he will to be an Heresie of the Heretikes called Monarchians in the primitiue Church against whom Tertullian writes in his Booke aduersus praxeam and since renued by one Petrus Abaillardus and continued by one VVickleffe they in déede measured Gods power according to his will the same contrary to the expresse woord of God which oftentimes declars many things to be possible to God which notwithstanding he wil not doe as appeareth in Sap. 2 where it is recited that God could sende many sortes of afflictions to the children of Israell to chastise them but he would not doe it hauing disposed all things by measure number and ballance and that he might destroy suche as had offended him but he would not but vsed mercy to them In the gospel our Lorde saide to S. Peter Thinkest not thou that I can pray to my Father and he will sende me more than twelue legions of Aungels and yet as he would not pray to him so his Father did not send them although he was able to haue done it in the persone of his sonne Christe might haue let his enimies to haue taken away his life but he would not And the Father might haue saued him from corporall Deathe saithe S. Paule by his power but neither the one nor other would doe it which albeit the ministers might say was foreordained yet the Scripture holdes expressely that he might haue done it notwithstanding it was foreordained And touching the authoritie of Tertullian the Doctoures are glad they produce it as making altogither for the truthe againste their blasphemies and yet they haue omitted many of his woordes and sentences to confute their erroure as the text it selfe heere witnesseth Nihil Deo difficile Quis hoc nesciat in possibilia apud seculum possibilia apud deum qâ—is ignorat Et stulta mundi elegit Deus vt confundat sapientia Ergo inquiunt heretici monarchiani scilicet difficile non fuit Deo ipsum se patrem filium facere aduersus traditam formam rebus humanis Nam sterilem parere contra naturam difficile Deo non fuit sicut nec virginem planè nihil Deo difficile sed si tam abruptè in
God Almighty as being able without exception to doo what so euer he will and that there is no power neither in Heauen nor Earthe which may hinder change or delay in any sort the effect and perfecte execution of his eternal and immoueable councelles yet his Omnipotencie ought not to be stretched without discretion or distinction to all things generally that men maye conceiue and imagine in their fonde fansies but to those onely whiche neither are nor can be contrary to his iustice bountie wisedome nor by consequence againste his holy and eternall will wisedome and truthe which is and shal be for euer to doo al things wel and wisely with number weight and measure without any iniquitie disorder or contradiction in any thing he doothe All whiche things being well vnderstande and considered are able to cleare the Ministers to all indifferent people of the slaunderous imposition of the Doctours raised and falsly pronounced by them to make vs hateful to the worlde And to proue it by degrées and set a truth of their slaunders they chaunge and alter almoste al the speaches of the Ministers either by additions or retractions as knowing that without that policie they were without meane both to grounde their saide reproches and giue them any colour of likelyhoode whiche shal nowe appeare by the deduction and particulare confutation of their pretended blasphemies against vs. Firste they accuse vs as to haue saide that Gods Omnipotencie oughte not to be measured but by the onely things which are conformable to his will and not to derogate his wisedome his truthe his nature or the order which he hath established in the worlde Wherein to verifie their accusation and slaunder they choppe and hacke this sentence taking the laste parte of it onely whiche they haue separated from the rest and which the Ministers had limit to the whole for a more expresse and cleare declaration howe Goddes Almightinesse ought to be knowne beleued and woorshipped of al the worlde neither haue they vnderstande the terme of order according to the sense and meaning of the Ministers who signifie thereby the estate and disposition whiche God hath established conserues and enterteines in all things by his eternall prouidence and immoueable will onely to intercept that no confusion happen in his workes according to the Diffinition of S. Augustine in his Bookes de Ordine and himselfe hathe vsed in the fifth Booke of his Confessions the which being not vnderstande by the Doctours they haue translated the opinion of the Ministers to the ordinary and accustomed course of Nature and to the mouing of the creatures whiche be in this worlde Wherein to procure a more exception to the Doctrine aforesaide they obiecte the myracles that God did aboue nature inferring thereby that God doothe and maye doo againste his Order established To the whiche the Ministers aunswere that albeit the myracles be done ouer and aboue the ordinary course of nature yet they are not done contrary to the Order aforesaid bicause al things referred to the prouidence and ordinaunce of God be well done and rightely disposed notwithstanding theire reason and Order be many times vnknowne to men according to the opinion of Salomon God doothe all things in their time to the whiche maye be appropriate a testimonie out of the Sentences of S. Augustine 283. and 284. God who is the Creatour and Conseruer of Natures doothe nothing in his myracles contrary to nature Neither doothe it followe that that whiche is newe in custome is contrary to reason c. whereof if the Doctours will knowe further lette them reade the seconde Booke made by the saide Holy Personage of the Order and likewise what he writes of the myracles in the fifth and sixth Chapter of the thirde Booke of the Trinitie This aunswere may suffise to confute the twoo other pretended blasphemies which folowe in the obiection of the Doctours And touching the fourth wée aunswere that the will of God maye be considered in twoo sortes as the Diuines teache which is as it is declared to men by woordes signes and effectes and according as it is retained and hidde in himselfe the one is called Wil knowne by signes and the other the Will of the good pleasure of god For the regarde of the firste consideration the Ministers confesse as heretofore they haue said to the doctors that God can doo many things which he wil not But to the other we saie his wil is equal with his power as also his power in that regard is equal to his wil According to which consideration ought to be vnderstanded and interpreted the sentence of Tertullian alleaged by vs and euill applied by the Doctours to the Monarchians as beste may iudge all suche as heedefully reade that place produced by vs who to aunswere an other reproche of the saide Doctoures accusing vs of wrong to the Auncientes as to accepte some matter of the Omnipotencie of God are here enforced to reiterate Theodorete in his thirde Dialogue who writes as foloweth Wée muste not saie without some determination that all things are possible to God for who so holdes suche absolute opinion comprehendes all things aswell good as euill whiche oughte not in any sorte be attributed to God. By whiche maye appeare that neither this good Authour nor the others before alleaged by vs woulde not submitte all things indifferently to Goddes power But doo excepte what so euer is contrary to his will and essence To be shorte to qualifie the difference betwéene the Ministers who holde it impossible one body to be in diuerse places at one instant and the Doctours which affirme the contrary there is but one meane which is that the Doctours without entring into so long a circuit and wasting of speache in alleaging so many superfluous matters doo proue summarily by one onely place of the Scripture that God wil doo it To knowe whether the Ministers haue wel or euil alleaged S. Augustine as to proue that a body cannot be withoute place and measures and also whether they haue well or euill defended that the Quantity is essential in a body and not accidental as the Doctours holde they laie themselues vppon the vpright iudgement of the Readers of the Acts of this conference Touching that which foloweth in the writing of the Doctours that there is no place aboue the Heauens wherein Iesus Christ is not comprehended conteined that the Bodies and Sprites are therein differently without any distinction and distaunce of place The Ministers saie that touching all those pointes they rather beleue the Scripture expresse woorde of God which they haue alleaged than all the suttleties and Sophistries which the Doctoures or others are able to bring foorthe of their vaine Philosophy Besides the same is expressely conteined and taught in one of the Articles of our faithe in this phrase From thence shal he come to iudge both the quicke the deade By whiche muste be noted that there is Vnde which is an Aduerbe signifying
bicause the one is a miracle of Gods power in nature and the other a wonder againste nature and contrary to Gods will. In the Article folowing the Doctoures doe falsly impose vppon vs an opinion that it was a thing impossible to God that a Camel passe thorow the eie of an néedle séeing in our former Aunsweres we neuer touched that pointe but only that part of the sentence speaking of rich men But now to Answer the Obiection and fully resolue it we say the euen as God may saue a riche man by chaunging him and purging his heart of all vaine trust and presumption wherewith being infected he is incapable to enter into the kingdome of heauen euen so it is no lesse easie for him to make a Camel passe by the creuise of a néedle hauing circonsised and digged the greatnesse of the same with other things which mighte let him to passe In the first place that the Supper which is celebrated in the reformed Churche is the true institution and ordinance of the true Sonne of God. And after that the end for the which it was instituted is to assure the Faithfull of the true participation which they haue in the fleshe of Iesus Christe crucified for their saluation and in the bloud shedde for remission of their sinnes and lastly for the confirmation of the newe aliance which God hath contracted with his people Thirdly we say it is necessary that the breade and wine remaine in their propre substance yea after the Consecration and that other wayes they could not be sacraments of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ Finally we say that the vnfaithfull presenting themselues to the supper can not by meane of their infidelitie receiue other thing than the outward signes of bread and wine and that to their iudgement and condemnation On the other side we propone to the Doctoures touching their Masse that as it is celebrated at this day in the Romishe churche it is nothing but an inuention and tradition of man. That it is a corruption and prophanation aswell of the holy supper of our Lord Iesus Christ as of the true and lawfull vse of the same That it is an abuse of the sacrificature of the Papistes priestes and that in the newe Testament there is no other sacrificature ordained to procure and obtaine remission of sinnes nor also to intercesse either by prayers or merites to obtaine the fauor of God than the onely sacrificature of Iesus Christe We say moreouer that the sacrifice of the Romish priests is a blasphemie and Sacrilege and that there is none other Oblation than that which Iesus Christe hathe once made in the Crosse of his body by which the ire of God might be appaesed his iustice satisfied sinners reconciled to God sinne pardoned and the bonde of eternall deathe cancelled and made nothing We say the seperation of the priest in the Masse from the rest of the people is a defacing to the Communion of the supper and by consequence damnable afore God. It is an intollerable Idolatrie to worship breade wine whether it be in the Masse or out of the Masse There rest yet two pointes in the wrytings of the Doctoures wherof we admonishe them the one is that we neuer found in the scripture that faith was a humaine worke but that it is a woorke of God and a gifte which he giues to his chosen The other is that we confesse not to be able to produce any Auncient author which hathe saide in plaine termes that one body cannot be in one instant in diuers places bicause the contrary séemes so absurde and straunge and so contrary to reason and faith which all faithful men ought to haue that we thought such opinion could neuer find place in the hart of any professing to be a Christian To ende this Aunswere we could with greater delite entreat vppon the questions aforesaide than dispute vppon the opening of the doores the sepulchre and the heauens as to our gréefe we haue done those dayes passed and that for two reasons The one bicause the decision and resolution of such questions can not be drawne and gathered of the scripture And the seconde bicause it can not muche serue either to the aduauncement of the honoure and glory of God or to the reléefe and instruction of his Churche Thursday 25. of Iulie the yeare aforesaide The Replie of the Doctors to the vvriting of the Ministers sent vnto them by the Duke of Neuers the .25 of Julie 1566. about .8 of the clocke in the Euening WHere the ministers complain of their wrong to be called blasphemers as making themselues innocent with Iesus Christe S. Stephen and Naboth vppon whome suche crime was falsly imposed the Doctoures say that in this they folowe the good Donatistes who stoode alwayes vpon complaint of the great wrongs and iniuries which they saide they endured of the Catholikes And yet the Histories stande as witnesses of their conformitie with Iesus Christe S. Stephen and Naboth and also howe néerely these ministers resemble those holy examples The Anabaptistes might haue saide no lesse to them of the reformed churche when they call them Heretikes And so muche also might haue sayd and did say Seruet who for his blasphemies was burned at Geneua estéeming himselfe happie to be iudged by Caluine a blasphemer for his Doctrine and to endure the sentence and paine of death Therfore we must not beléeue the Minysters to be other than the blasphemers though they shake of that name no lesse impudently than any other heretike But it behoues to examine whether their Doctrine import blasphemie or not we say there is no blasphemie more worthy of greater cursse than to denie the almightinesse of God which is no lesse than to denie simplie that God is not which deniall containes a Theme For to take from God that which is proper to him according to his nature is as much to say he is not God according to S. Basile in an Homelie of his intituled God is not author of euil He writes that it is no lesse blasphemie to say God is Author of euill than to say that God is not God bicause that to take from God his bountie which is naturall to him is wholely to spoile him of his Diuinitie wherein the like may be saide of his omnipotencie which who so denieth or diminisheth denieth also his Diuinitie The question then is to knowe if the ministers will abolishe the omnipotencie of God not in propre termes for they séeme to confesse it but in affirming that his almightinesse is measured according to his wil so that he cannot doe but that he wil with other suche like propositions contained in their former Answeres which whether we haue proued or not to containe blasphemies we lay vs vpon euery sound iudgement which hath any way serched the holy scriptures or the bookes of the Auncient Christians which as they may also be knowne by the friuolous Aunswers of the ministers to
month shal we kil them Muttons or Béeffes which may suffice them Or shal we gather all the Fishes of the sea to content them God answered to Moyses the hand of the Lord is it shortned thou shalt sée now whether my woorde wil come to passe or not In like manner as often as we reade in the Scriptures that the multitude or other particular sort fel into infidelitie or distrust of the aide and succors of God we shall finde that ordinarily it moued in respecte they rested vppon the nature and disposition of humaine things and did not comprehende sufficiently the power of God and of the contrary to confirme them we finde that this power was put before their eies wherof we haue héere before produced certaine Examples of Esay and Ierome In the newe Testamente the Virgine séemed to make some doubte of the meane of hir Conception as hauing regarde to the naturall manner of conceiuing For shée sayde howe may this be séeing I know no man But the Aungell Aunswered nothing is impossible to God drawing her by that from the imagination of naturall propreties which is the roote of infidelitie exhorted hir to aspire to the almightinesse of God as being the first stone and rocke wherupon is builded true religion This being considered and so to resolue with the Ministers for this conference we say that by good right gods almightines obteines expressely the first place amongest the Articles of the Apostles Créede as being the same by the which the other Articles of Faith and dooings of God aboue nature are beleued and mainteined against all contradiction and repugnancie of nature or reason that may be pretended or alleaged and without the which neither Article of the Faithe or any dooings of God surpassing nature and conteined in the Scripture can be defended against the malice and deprauation of humaine Sprite which tendes alwayes to infidelitie and disobedience to God and is prompt and suttle from his byrth to depraue and reproche the woord and commaundement of the same by meane whereof wée say that so much the more euery good Christian oughte to enforce himselfe to hold preserue this Article whole without either suffering any exception or to restraine it to our single pleasure or purpose vnder colour of incertaine pretended repugnances of Creatures mouing in the Sprites of men for want of direct vnderstanding comprehending the greatnesse of God for as the Scripture giues to vs alwayes this Omnipotency in generall without any restrainte in regarde of creatures and dooings of God so it teacheth vs that creatures are vnder his obedience as the Clay in the handes of the Potter to receiue such chaunge and forme as he thinks best without that they can say why doo you this to me or why chaunge you me such similitude of speach vse the Prophet Esay Ierome and S. Paule Wée say further that so much lesse ought it to be licenced to men to limit and bound the said power according to the contradictions which they imagyn in their fansies of the nature wisedome or eternall will of God séeing the expresse sentence of the Scripture is that as God can doo more than wée vnderstand so he smiles at such as wil meddle with his nature wisedome eternal wil as if they were his Counsellers and knewe further of his iudgements and ordinaunces than his owne woord dooth pronounce and in the ende all sprites created are constrained with S. Paule to cry out confessing their ignorance of the power wisedome of God and of his dooings Oh depth of Riches of the knowledge wisedome of God Oh that his iudgementes are incomprehensible and his wayes impossible to finde For who is he that hath knowne the intent of the Lord or who hath bene his Counseller Wherewith wée may also note vpon this pointe a godly sentence of S. Augustine in an Epistle of his to Volusianus Wée confesse that God can doo something which in searching wée cannot finde meaning that as God can doo something so albeit in our naturall iudgemente wée thinke it impossible yet let vs hold it possible only the capacity of our sprite is not able to comprehende it Wée say further that by suche licence and meane to exempt from Goddes power at our pleasure vnder colour of certaine impossibilities of nature or repugnancy supposed by our owne iudgement in the nature wisedome or will of God euery one may study to faine the like in all matters of Faith wherein suche things may be easily inuented or disguised And that it be so if all the Heresies be obserued that haue withstād it in euery time from the first Article of the Creede euen to the laste it will appeare that they al haue kept this way and methode to shake euery Article of the Faith as impossible to God considering the impossibility of the facte according to nature and certaine pretended inconueniences against nature wisedome will and glory of god To this effecte also wée apply the twoo firste Bookes of Tertullian whereof the one is of the Incarnation of Iesus Christe and the other of the Resurrection of his Fleshe againste the Marcionistes wherein the Christian Reader shall reade like Argumentes of the saide Marcionistes labouring to exempt the Incarnation of our Sauiour and Resurrection of his Fleshe from the Omnipotency of God. Nowe to conclude this pointe wée speake it to all good Christians that to the ende to adde nothing to the Scriptures whose speache is alwayes of the power of God to his Creatures withoute any lymitation and to the ende to glorifie the infinite power wisedome and eternall will of our Creatour and Redéemer and also not to open the vessell of the secretes of God to euery impudent who of his owne folie will sette Lawes to men but to the power wisedome and eternal wil of God. And lastely to the ende not to bring into the worlde all Heresies onely but also an Atheisme who according to his sense and fansie may and will oppose and gainesay the infinite power of the true liuing and eternall God. Wée affirme eftsoones that it is necessary to beleue confesse and mainteine that our God is the Almighty Lorde without ende to whom as nothing is impossible so euen the least of his woorkes standing daily afore our eies cannot be comprehended And in plaine speache he is no more a Christian nor a faithfull man who restraines or drawes into any lymit the power of God for thereby he reuerseth the maintenaunce of the Faithe which ought to be generall as to the which no exception can be giuen But as the Omnipotency ought to be kepte in his generalitie and perfection so our opinion is that it is not inough to say that God is almighty and hath the vertue to doo any thing as to inferre that it is done for all that our Lorde can doo he hath not yet done nor neuer wil do bicause his power is infinite But the knowledge of this omnipotency serues to confesse magnifie
which euer hath bin in the world laying the worshipping of Images the inuocation intercession to Saincts the veneration of relikes other like impieties to the honor of God persuading the ignorante that al the was done to aduance him Vnder pretence likewise of his seruice he hath brought in all the contradictions and inuentions of men and chaunged with the time the true and lawfull seruice of God whiche consistes in the obedience of his Holy wil as he hathe declared it to vs in his Lawe and his woorde into obseruation of their commaundementes ceremonies by them inuented vnder pretence and colour of the Sacramentes ordeined by God for confirmation exercise and nourtour of the Faithe of his Churche there is crepte in the Masse which is not the ruine and absolute subuersion of the supper but also an abolishment of al the benefites of Iesus Christe and by consequent of the Faith of all true Religion vnder colour shadowe of Holinesse and vnder shadowe of chaste shamefast and honest conuersation whiche is principally required in the Ministers and Pastours of the Churche he hath established serilitie or singlenesse and hath taken from them al libertie of Marriage which hathe bene the occasion of muche Filthinesse Infamies stinking execrable Whooredomes Lechery which are amongst the Papists seene vnder colour of Praiers which wée are commaunded to make one for an other and Charitie by the which wee are bounde to succour the poore and néedy he hathe broughte in Suffrages whiche haue bene sung for the Dead Merites and Woorkes of Supererogation and other like Abominations vnder colour of the day of Reste which God hathe chosen and assigned to the sanctifying of his Holy name to the contemplation of his Woorkes to the recording and preaching of his benefites and fauours he hath brought foorth infinite prophane Holy dayes in whiche Goddes name is blasphemed his Ordinaunces corrupted and his Alliance violated Yea who can number the wicked abominations whiche were committed in those dayes vnder the pretence of the Keies and Discipline of the Church wherof the Administration and vse was giuen to the Ministers of lawful vocatiō as to haue a meane to preserue the Doctrine pure to enterteine a good order in the Churche and to withstande the slaunders which mighte happen by the insolencie of others he hathe established a tyranny whereof is happened an entyre dissipation of the Church of God a corruption of all estates and the diminishing of the lawful authority which God hath giuē to Kings Princes and Magistrates of whom some haue bene wholy spoiled aswel touching their goodes as dignities by the Pope and his Bishoppes and others so weakened that they are constrained in many places to bowe their neckes and lay it vnder their yoke and power To be shorte this may be noted and obserued in al the enterprises and actions of the Diuel that as he is a Serpent so hath he alwaies ramped creeping as it were couertly vnder leaues and likelyhoodes of godlinesse into the house of God to sowe there the disorder confusion and destruction which he pretended wherein wee see at this day that continuing and folowing as it were his earnest he bringes in the almightinesse of God a title peaceable and fauourable to al the worlde to the ende that vnder the honour and light of such an occasion he may dimme the eies of the ignorant and nussel them stil in the opinion persuasion of their errours which haue no ground in Gods woorde Wee beseeche the Readers as all others also in whom remaines a feare to God and zeale to his honour that with greate wisedome they consider of the saide artificiall practises of the Diuell beleuing not all sprites afore they haue wel sounded and examined them neither let them approue all things that may be proponed to thē vnder the name of God which at the first may seeme to resemble and appertaine to his honor glory but let them remēber the aduise of the Apostle to trie and proue the sprites with diligente regarde to the ende and marke of suche as propone them such doctrines And if on any behalf part wée haue to stād vpon our garde againste suche suttleties and deceites whiche are snares cast out to entrappe the simple we haue special néede of singulare regarde in this matter of Gods Omnipotencie wherof the question lies at this present for we confesse that it oughte to be knowne beleued and woorshipped of al creatures vniuersally that are in Heauen and earth and that the faithful cannot haue a better grounde nor better bulworke to defende them aswell againste the force of the Diuell and the Worlde as their other enimies together with all other temptations wherewith they may be assaulted Wée say this Omnipotency is as the pointe of the Shield vpon the which the worlde and al his partes is turned and holden vp Wée confesse also that this Almightinesse is not onely to be reuerenced of the Angelles and happy Soules in Heauen and of the chosen and holy ones that are in earthe but also to be redoubted of the reprobate and Deuilles that are in Hell whereof the one sorte of frée will doo folowe it and submitte to it and the other are constrained to stoupe vnder it and obey Lastely wee confesse that it is infinite and of a greatenesse incomprehensible to all creatures as the wisedome bountie iustice truth and other vertues and properties of our God. This is it that which wée confesse and beleue of the Omnipotencie of God as also that which wée thinke al Christians ought to holde and beleue And nowe to vse rightly this Omnipotency and apply it as apperteineth wée must iudge of it according to his Wil and of his Wil according to his Woord so that we ought not to attribute indifferently to the power of God al things good euil ordered and disordered conuenient and contrary to his nature false and true things But the better to rule and leade the thoughtes and cogitations rising in our mindes of the Almightinesse of God wée muste measure them for our regarde according to his holy Wil beléeuing that it can not be limited staid or hindred by any other wil or power which wold or can be set against it which S. Augustine teacheth at large in many places as in the fifth Booke of the Citie of God Chapiter 10. where speaking of God he saithe that he calles him selfe Almighty bicause he dothe all that he wil and suffereth nothing onlesse he will it Also in his 21. Booke Chapter 17. he calles him selfe Almighty for none other reason than that onely he can doo all that he will. Also in the Booke of the Symboll and Catec Chapter 1. our God doothe all that he will and that is his Omnipotency Lastely in his Sermon 119. De Tempore he is almighty as dooing all things which he will and ordeines them to be done These sentences with many other like founde in the writings of this good Father and
other Auncientes teache vs clearely the manner howe to make our profite of the Faithe wée haue in the Omnipotencie of God which is in referring it to his Will and iudging his Will by his Woorde and not by false imaginations whiche either our sprites maye conceiue or others woulde propone to vs as Sathan did to Iesus Christe whom he wente aboute to induce to throwe him selfe headlong vnder a vaine truste to be succoured by the Omnipotency of God. And likewise the Monarchians who vnder the colour and pretence of Gods almightinesse which thei gathered of other myracles would proue establish their Heresies and take away the personal distinction which is betwéene the Father and the Sonne saying that God being almighty might by that reason make him selfe Father and Sonne altogether There be also Anabaptistes in these later times who vnder a vaine assurance they repose in Gods almightinesse which hope that he can nourish them as he did the byrdes will not incline to trauel Many other such like or greater inconueniences may happen to al those who hauing such wandring dispersed thoughts of the omnipotency of God would not restraine nor refer them to his wil which we see is also happened to the Doctors who seeking to measure Gods almightinesse rather by their imaginations thaÌ„ by his wil woord are as S. Paule saith become vaine in their discourse their harts forsaken of vnderstanding are fillrd with darkenesse And as in seeking to behold the maiesty of God without the limits boundes which he hath appointed in his word they are becom ouerwhelmed engulphed in his glory so thei are also fallen into the which thei touched in their own resolution that bicause they haue not taken Goddes Woorde for theire guide nor followed the Pathes and footesteppes of his Holy Spirite they are swarued from Faythe whiche contrary to the opinion of the Doctours is not defaced nor reuersed by the consideration of creatures woorkes of God which are as mirrours of his glory and Diuinitie if not that by the same wée might be turned from the promisses of God by the which wée are assured of his wil and his Omnipotencie which doothe warrante and assure to vs the effectes and accomplishmentes of this his Holy will which maye be clearely seene and obserued in those that were sent by Moyses to espie and knowe the Lande of the Chananites twoo of the which Iosua and Caleb could neuer be drawne from the truste they had put in their God bicause that turning their mindes from the consideration of all such thinges as mighte kindle doubte in them as from the strength and munition of Townes the numbers force weapons and experience of the Countrie men they fixed their mindes vpon the onely remembraunce and contemplation of the promisses whiche God had made them where of the contrary others forgetting the saide promisses and considering nothing but what they sawe afore their eies fell and made to fal all the people with them into this cursed and damnable infidelitie for the which they were so graeeuously punished in the Deserte and shut out of the entry and ioy promised by God to their Auncestours And in the example of Abraham whose Faithe remained firme and stable chiefly by the consideration of the promise and will of God as S. Paule saith so that the consideration of Goddes Omnipotencie comes after to susteine and accompany that which he had of the promisse By these examples wée may sée what daunger there is to departe and fall from neuer so litle the woorde of God by which wee are guided to the knowledge of his Will and by the knowledge of his Will wée are drawne to the consideration and iudgemente wee oughte to haue of his Omnipotencie For wante whereof the Doctoures are fallen into the errours and madde fansies proponed to vs in their laste resolution that the Body of Iesus Christe at one instant may be in diuers places which as it is contrary to the faith we ought to haue and holde constantly of the wisdome prouidence and eternall truthe of God So likewise it is against the faith we ought to haue of the humanitie of our lord Neither doth that serue any thing to proue and coÌ„firme their error which they alleage chiefly of S. Ierome againste Vigilantius where his speeche importes no other matter than that the soules of the holy ones are inclosed in a certaine prisone as Vigilantius dreamed but doe accompanie the Lambe where so euer he goeth neither that which they alleage of S. Augustine in his Booke of the care we ought to haue of the deade séeing in the same Booke he himselfe confesseth that he standes doubtfull of that which the Doctoures assure and muche lesse the three authorities alleaged of S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ambrose and S. Augustine whose sentences ought to be vnderstande of the sacrament and not of the thing signified by the sacrament as we hope to vnfolde at large in the next conference We maruel much that the Doctors draw backe thus and will not enter but vnwillingly into the conference of their Masse to defende it as also of the supper celebrated in the reformed Churches to impugne it For seeing they holde it as the principall grounde of their Religion and propone it as a meane to saluation to all the world therefore in respecte not to be found seducers or light to beléeue or teach a thing which is not certaine nor well assured they ought to stand continually furnished with reasons bothe to proue and defend readily that which they beleeue and teache and also to conuince suche as would denie it But héere the worlde may discerne what is a wicked conscience who being feareful eschâ—es alwayes the light combate it is long since we haue vrged them with importunities to enter into conference of these two pointes and the rather to induce them to it we haue alleaged that it was the ende and purpose why the assembly was erected and that the Dutchesse of Buyllon in whose respect the companie mette had required it publikely once or twice like as also for oure partes we had often proâ—essed not to come thither in other regarde than to satisfie the Duchesse in that point and not to be examined by the Doctors as they falsly pretende For we delite not to go to such Doctors to be examined to be priests as also to be taught in pointes of religion and to knowe the truthe we would not choose suche maisters nor haunte their schooles to suche ende Notwithstanding all which declarations repeated so often by vs yet the Doctoures haue alwayes hitherto deferred to conferre of the sayde pointes exspecting as is most likely some occasion to dissolue and ende the said conference afore there be any beginning to speake of it albeit if they were ledde with any zeale to Gods honoure and the edifying of his churche they oughte to enforce by al their meanes that these two pointes mighte be wholy reuealed and resolued whether
table did not eate nor taste any thing of the meates there serued should he not doe dishonor wrong to him that inuited him had it not bene better for him not to haue come thither euen thus is it of thée For thou art come thou hast song Psalmes with the rest of the people thou hast confessed thy selfe to be of the number of the worthy and not departing from those that are vnwoorthy how then dost thou tary and not participate at the table of the Lord thou sayst I am vnwoorthy I answere thee that euen so arte thou also touching the Communion of Prayers Thirdly the gobbins and tronshons of the Gospels and Pistles the Creede Prayer and other péeces referred to the scripture altogither confused and shaken of pronounced to the people in a tong not vnderstand contrary to the expresse commaundemente of God and without any edifying of the multitude is no other thing than a vaine vsurpation of the name of God against the expresse defence made by the same which ornaments are too narow and short to couer the shame and horror of the Masse Fourthly what execrable abuse is it to say that the Masse serues not only to the liuing but also for the dead to obtaine remission of their sinnes wherin the priestes forgetting neither shame nor blasphemie deuide their ofte into three parts with this visor vppon it that one is for them that be in heauen an other for suche as liue on earth and the thirde serues for the soules that abide in purgatorie But the Sacrament which is not ordained but to confirme the faith of the word stretcheth no further then the ministerie and the ministerie no longer than this life so that if it be so that those that are in heuen such likewise as are fained to be in purgatorie be dead and departed this world we must necessarily conclude that as Gods woorde can not be preached vnto them so also they cannot pertake in the administration of the sacraments and if they be not administred to them they can nothing profite them The ende of the Resolution An Answer to the last Obiections proponed by the Doctoures touching the Supper WE say that there be many things in the sayde Obiections impertinente to the matter of the Question as where they demaund how many worlde 's the Doctrine hath remained pure bothe touching the supper and other articles of religion whereunto we Answer that euen in the time of the Apostles there were heretikes and Antichristes as Ebion Cerinthus Simon Magicien the Samaritanes and others who by their errors and heresies went aboute to shake euen the Apostolical Churches and corrupte the pure Doctrine of the same whome the Apostles resisted valiantly in all possible sorte reuoking and referring alwayes all things to their former institution and foūdations of the pure woord of God as we sée S. Paule did on the behalfe of the Corinthians and Galathians whose Churches albeit he had most well planted and licoured yet they were corrupted in his life time both in manners and doctrine And where the Doctors aske howe long time the puritie of the doctrine and Religion hath perseuered in the Churche of God after the decease of the Apostles as wel touching the Article of the supper as for others we Aunswere that the continuance hath bene euen so long time as Gods woorde hath bene folowed and preached Touching the Obiection of the Doctors folowing blasing the supper celebrated in the Reformed churches as that we shoulde abuse the Communicantes by giuing them no other thing than a nothing betwéene two platters we Aunswere that that blase doth more aptly become them than vs bicause they offer to suche as they summone to their Masses but the Accidents indiuidible waues and only the sighte of formes of breade and wine to féede them withall A litle after they call the sacrifice of their Masse most pretious wherin we cōdiscend with them and say they haue reason so to exalt it with a noble and most precious title bicause of the greate reuenues and riches which this pretious sacrifice brings them which we may say hath bene to them a fléece or mine of Golde more riche and plentifull than euer was that of Iason or all the mines of the Easte as hauing brought the world to beléeue and spetially the founders of Abbaies Priories and other benefices that their sacrifices were auaileable for the redemption remedie and reléefe of their soules Afterwards the Doctors without all shame call the supper of the Lord detestable bicause as they say we offer nothing there but common bread and wine wherunto we Answer that in our supper we offer in déede bread and wine to the people which after the consecration remain in their substance as before but we denie that for al that the said bread and wine are common bicause as hath bene héertofore amplie declared to the Doctors that both the one and the other by the preaching and pronoūcing of the ordinance of God is changed as is said in respecte of the vse but not touching the nature wher the doctors offer to charge vs with monopolides contributions conspiracies secrete practises against the state of our Prince vnder colour pretence of our supper we Answer that that is not to impugne our doctrine but impudently to despite slander vs for such hath ben the faith of the reformed religion as bisides that it hath ben proued with the losse of their bloud life yet the king in his councel by his edict hath declared vs his most faithful well affected subiects but it is not to be maruelled if the doctors heape these slaunders vpon the reformed churches seeing in al times the Christiās haue bene accused of such crimes by the enimies to the truth As appeareth by the Apologetike of Tertullian and S. Augustines Bookes of the Citie of God By the Treatise of S. Cyprian againste Demetrius and by the Booke of Arnobius which he wrote againste the Gentiles Onely we maruell howe the Doctoures are so euill aduised as to alleage the Suppers in the Refourmed Churches to verifie theyr accusatiōs séeing that as they are at this day publikely done euery where in the view and presence of so many as wil beholde them so there is nothing hid nor so hard as euery one if he wil may not easily be informed only it is the zeale great charitie of our masters the Doctors wherein héeretofore they haue protested euen by the Inuocation of the name of God that caries them without shame or likelihoode thus to slaunder vs whose iustice in this case is to Answere for vs bothe afore God and men And to proue and confirme their poynts afore recited the Doctors adde that it appertaines not to all men indifferently to Consecrate the matter of the sacramentes but to suche only as are ordained by imposition of the Romishe Bishops hands wherunto we Aunswer and confesse the first poynte as hauing saide in other places that the
vocation is necessary to suche effecte But not that this vocation is the imposition which they pretend assuring our selues that our vocation is more lawfull and better grounded than that of the Doctors Where the Doctors in the Article folowing alleage that we haue not Answered them to their sufficient liking touching the partes of the sacrament and the woord required for the consecration of the matter in the same we Aunswer that in our wrytings is no ambiguitie no darke sense nor any inuolution but suche as the Doctors list to finde there wherin as we lay our selues vppon the iudgement of the vpright hearers So also it becomes no more straunge to vs that the doctors chalenge vs of darke wryting than it was to S. Paul that his gospell was hid and couered to those that perished whose vnderstandings the God of this world had blinded Touching the presence of Iesus Christe in the supper wherin they would vrge vs to declare more amplie than in our former Aunswer we say we haue Aunswered sufficient clearly notwithstanding the doctors rest not satisfied wherof we make no greate maruell as knowing that they haue seldome in custome to be contented onlesse we consent both to their demaundes and desires which we are not nowe setled to do and much lesse that our Aunswer excéede the limits and bounds of the scripture neither in this Article of the supper nor in others but onely to folow the phrases and manners of spéeche of the same as neere as we can possibly By meane wherof for a full and resolute Aunswer we acknowledge no other eating of the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christe whether in or out of the supper than that which Iesus Christ declares in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn who eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud he hath life euerlasting also he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloude he dwelles in me and I in him as the liuing Father hath sent me so I goe thither bicause of my father and he that shall eate me shall liue also bicause of me Vppon the last Article which is of the concomitance we Aunswer that the Doctors demaunde was not so harde that we conceiued it not only we dissembled it as not to lose time to speake and write of such dreames wherin also we iudged the Doctors of sufficient suttletie to vnderstande that in denying them Transubstantiation was not to approue their concomitance And nowe to satisfie them we make this addition not to seke to know more than that which Iesus Christ teacheth in his woord that in the supper to participate in his flesh crucified and blud shed for remission of sinnes we must take and eat the bread and drinke the wine which are administred and not deuide or separate them in any sort the same being also defended by the Canons De confecr dist 2. Cum omne crimen Wedensday the fourtenth of August the yeare aforesaide This wryting being dispatched and sent away the Ministers not long after went to the Lord of Neuers with declaration that for their parts they had at large handled this coÌ„ference as finding the doctors by their impertinent and vain questions hitherto to séeke only to winne time without any aduauncement at al of the solution of the supper the Masse And albeit they disguised their demaundes as necessarily to tend to a prepratiue for this disputation yet they contained no other purpose than not at all to enter the conference but rather to kéepe things in suspence vntil they grew weary by which meanes this holy purpose mighte altogither dissolue breake in the ends they besoughte him humbly to aduise the Doctors without vaine varietie or change of matter to auoide the difference and refute that which the Ministers had maintained of the supper and defend that which they had coÌ„demned of the Masse wherein they obtained his promisse which gaue them a hope of profitable matter héereafter and such as might serue to edifie the readers and purge the greatest abuse and error that then occupied the Romishe Church All this notwithstanding there ran immediately a brute thorow the towne that Vigor was falne into a dangerous sicknesse without likelihoode of spéedy recouery the same giuing a feare to the Ministers to be intercepted in their laste hope which they doubted so muche the more as at the instant they were told that Doctor Sainctes was also gone out of Paris to the Cardinal of Loraine by which they could not otherwayes presume than that they should be enforced to a long abode in Paris without any sette exercise to occupie the time as being come thither but by chance for Spyna but made it in his way to passe into Aufon and for the other being Minister to the Church of Orleans it was not long since he was taken out of prison whether he was led in Iune afore vpon a false imputation by the enimies of Gods Churche charging him to be Author of a most pernitious wicked Boke written against the obedience to Kings and Princes by which he founde it very inconuenient for him to tarie so long in the Towne whether he came not at the first willingly For these respects they resolued eftsones to returne to the Lord of Neuers and also to tel him that séeing doctor Sainctes who might haue taried and drawne to him in Vigors place some other at his plesure was departed without any aduertisement of his returne there was also no reason of their abode stil as wel in respect of the incertaintie of their businesse as also that their Churches had neede of them for the exercise of their charge as they desired notwithstaÌ„ding in the end they yelded to their propre incommoditie as to remaine there vntil the Lord of Neuers parted from Paris which shuld be vpon the ende of August being minded then to go to a Lordship of his called Conlomiers for then hauing neither the presence of the Lord of Neuers nor the company of the Doctors the Ministers were at a gaze as hauing nothing to doe nor any man to dispute withall Vpon these declarations the Lorde of Neuers deliuered them their pasport in wryting signed Lodouico de Gonzague with promisse to send vnto them the Answer of the Doctors that by the meane of the Lord de Buci S. Georg who vndertoke the charge of the businesse The Ministers for their parts promised also to be ready to returne to Paris either els to Answer from the place where they should remaine as often as the Doctors would wryte This businesse being thus setled the Ministers departed immediatly with expectation of some spéedie newes froÌ„ the Doctors from whom as yet they haue hard neither argumeÌ„t nor effect only they haue hard that thorow the citie of Paris there hathe bene publike sale of certaine wrytings within whose titles is included this woord of conference as to make séeme to the worlde that they contained matter touching the former disputations this policie was not without great profite to the Printers so vehemente was the desire of men to knowe the truthe for whose satisfying and contentment we thought good to spred abrode the matter as it passed in déede reseruing till an other time to publish that which the doctors would wryte against it if they will wryte at all and also the Ministers Answeres which shall neuer faile In the meane while let euery one make his profite of the present Contentes with prayer to the Father of all lighte to poure more and more the cleare lighte of his spirite vpon his Church in the true vnderstanding of his holy woorde for the restoring and aduauncement of the spirituall kingdom of Iesus Christe his Sonne our Lorde FINIS 2. Tim. 3. 2 Pet. Rom. 15. Iames 1. Luke 16. Luke 2. Sorbonae a College of Papists in Paris Cap. 7.18 Rom. 12.6 Cap 59. 21. Deut. 28. Rom. 8.9 Chap. 2.20.27 1. Tim 3 15 Psal. 30. Chap. 13. Hebrues 13. Rom. 10. Hebr. 11. Rom. 10. Iohn 24. Luk. 24. Hebr 12. Iohn 8. 1. Timo. 2 Hebr. 6. Actor 12. Actor 5. Luke 24 Lib. 4. Cap. 17. Sect. 29. Hebr. 4.14 Iohan. 12. Act. 7. King. 1.11 Iohn 6. Ephe. 2. Psal. 7.5.2.8 1. Cor. 15. 2. Cor. 6. 1. Cor. 1. Iohn 14 Ephe. 3. Iohn 17. 1. Cor. 4.13 Rom. 10. Iohn 6. 1. Cor. 10. Math. 26. 1. Cor. 11. Gene. 17. Exod. 12. Tit. 3. epist. â—3 â— Corrin 1. Cor. 1. In a Sermon of the supper Chap. 16. Hom. 17. epist. 29. Agaynst Faustine 1. Cor. 11. Sermo 3. ad Ephesi
our laste Obiections so for oure partes we maruell not much if they be deceiued in the nature of the almightinesse séeing they erre in the grounde as not knowing wherein it consists and why God is called almightie For they say they haue learned of the Scripture that God is omnipotent bicause he can doe all that he will and nothing can resist him the same being as a signe of the power of God but vnder correction it is not the matter wherein it consistes and therefore to knowe it it must be considered according to his Obiect that is according to things possible to doe so that there is nothing possible which God can not do All thing without exception is estéemed possible where is not founde contradiction to be and not to be and that comes not by the fault of the power of God who can doe al things but by the repugnācie of the thing that can not be which the Ministers in the beginning had perhappes put in some Aunswer were it not that bicause vpō certain interrogatories they Answered that Gods almightinesse must be measured according to his will and thinking to saue this error they are slipped into diuers others which they can not shift of without falling into an infinite absurditie as not to confesse to haue failed Wherin their offence is more in that they goe about to limite bound the power of God not suffer it to stretch to al things generally that the sprite of mā may conceiue imagine séeing of the contrary it is not to be douted that Gods power is great aboue the conceit and imaginations of mannes spirite yea it is infinite and incomprehensible as S Paule saith God can doe more than we eisher demaunde or vnderstande And where the ministers say that God can doe onely all things which are not contrary to his iustice his wisdome his bountie and truth and therfore he can not doe all things generally it hath bene already told them that to be able to do things contrary to the iustice bountie wisdome and truthe of God was not power but impower And by that also as S Augustine saithe in a place alleaged by vs in our former Obiection that he can not doe suche things it is an argument of his almightinesse and no restraint of the same And where the ministers inferre that bicause God cannot doe such things by consequence he cānot do any thing which is contrary to his wisdome and eternall will which is and shal be for euer to doe all things well and wisely with number poise and measure yea without that there be or shall be any iniquitie and contradiction in all that he dothe it may here be séene how the ministers disguise that which is in cōtrouersie concealing the matter of their former writing touching the order established in the worlde againste the which they said God could do nothing with other matters of blasphemie which as we did argue so they durste not reuiue them in their last answere as in respecte their conscience vrged them and kindled a knowledge that as such affirmatiōs could not be sustained so they could not auoide them but in denying to haue written them and so accuse vs of slaūder as to haue altered chaunged their matters by additions or retractions for our purgation wherin we send them to our last obiection where as the words are produced in the first Article so the said blasphemies are drawn out of the propre words of the first article of the ministers And we refer our selues to the collation of our said last writing with that of the ministers only it is as also most certainely it will be found the we haue faithfully recited the propre woordes of the ministers which as they wold not aduow in themselues so it wil be knowne at the laste that til now they haue mainteined propositions of blasphemie that therin wée haue done them no wrong as pardoning their persons and being content to speake our simple aduise of their Doctrine The Ministers to shewe their iuste cause to accuse vs of slaunder say in the first place that wée haue cut of their proposition whiche was suche that the almightinesse of God ought not to be measured but by the things which onely are conformable to his will and doo not derogate his wisedome his truthe his nature nor the order whiche he hath established in the worlde and that of this the laste parte onely is taken by the Doctors who for their purgation say that they haue alwaies considered what was put in cōtrouersi which is if God can bring to passe that one body be in twoo places And to examine the truth of this Question afore they committed it to writing they laid the whole with euery part of the Ministers proposition and haue thus argued that God can doo al things which are conformable to his wil the same neing knowne whē there is nothing that derogates either his wisedome his truthe his nature or the order whiche he hath established in the worlde as the Ministers holde one bodye to be in twoo places derogates not the wisedome of God séeing for all that God cannot be but wise it dothe not derogate his truth for he hath neuer said that he coulde not doo it neither yet his nature for if he shoulde he shoulde forbeare to be God th if there be any repugnancy it should be in this that it would derogate the order which God hath established in the world the same being the cause that they rest not but vpon the last Article And wée thinke sure the Ministers woulde not say that to be able to make a body to be in diuerse places were a thing repugnant either to the wisedome truthe or nature of God sauing in that they iudge it repugnes the order which God hath established in the worlde Besides the Ministers hauing laid the said proposition as a Rule to knowe what God can doo when they woulde accomodate this Rule to the matter in contention they oughte afterwardes to say so to what things repugne that whiche the Doctours preferre that one Body in one instant maye be in diuerse places but they saye and write onely what thing that is to saie Order c. whiche Relatiue cannot accorde but with his former Antecedent by which may clearly appeare that the Ministers incurre the crime of slaunder which falsely they obiecte to vs. And where they say wée take not the terme of the Order established in the worlde in the sense they meane it wée aunswere that wée haue construed the terme according to the vnderstanding whiche the Ministers haue giuen of it according to our iudgemente of their speaches and phrases thereof For when was question to bring in any myracle done by Iesus Christe contrary or aboue the nature of things created the Ministers had alwayes their recourse to the common order of nature as when speache was vttered of the doores shutte the comming foorth of the Graue the Virgyns wombe and of