Selected quad for the lemma: book_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
book_n	according_a	common_a	prayer_n	2,718	5	6.1677	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41334	A sober reply to the sober answer of Reverend Mr. Cawdrey, to A serious question propounded viz. whether the ministers of England are bound by the word of God to baptise the children of all such parents, which say they believe in Jesus Christ, but are grosly ignorant, scandalous in their conversations, scoffers at godliness, and refuse to submit to church dicipline ... : also, the question of Reverend Mr. Hooker concerning the baptisme of infants : with a post-script to Reverend Mr. Blake / by G.I. Firmin ...	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; Hooker, Thomas, 1586-1647. Covenant of grace opened.	1653 (1653)	Wing F966; ESTC R16401	67,656	64

state This is the Call and what have we now but divers ignorant so●s sent into these places to read a booke of Common prayer and this is their profession this is strange making of Churches this was not so in the times when Churches were first constituted Such Churches they were at their first constitution according to Mr. Cawdric Papge 7. who doth not regard what they were before this time so from first to last it is hard to say of divers Parishes that there have been so many visible Saints as might make a Church In the same Page you tell us That some people received the Gospell after the Example of Kings and were Baptized for company as Simon Magus it seemes but stay sir the Text saith he believed I know not in truth and continued with Philip● his conversation was such as for ought I can see till Peter came downe they had good opinion of him 8 Act. 13. Reverend Calvin upon the Text doth not judge so slightly as you here expresse and your selfe Pape 17. speake more clearly of Simon Magus then you doe here and neerer the truth Now sir you say though the People thus follow onely for company though the case was otherwise here for the People would not have changed had they been left to their own Libertie but the seare of a King or a Queen compelled them Yet if they take upon them an outward profession that was sufficient to give a right to themselves and their children for Baptisme and consequently they were a true Church though not a perfect and pure Church But sir you are speaking of the first Title to Baptisme what a strange Profession doe you make here to give Title how much different from what you have said before is required to make a Church-member You say Page 7. it is a true Church how will you predicate Truth of an effect when it wants the essentiall cause to predicate verum or vere of ●us is good but how is here the entity of a Church when the materiall cause is wanting and if the materiall be wanting the formall is also The formall cause suppose the materiall which it doth informe and distinguish c. I should further have objected against the Separatists what will you make of those Parishes are they Infidells They would answer let them be what they will they are not nor ever were that we know or others fit matter for Churches if the Presbyterians will stand to their own Definition but they would say againe they are State-christians made such by the power of the Civill Sword not Church-christians made by the spirituall Sword And this shewes it that in their Religion they will not go one step beyond what the State commands and had the State let them alone they would still have held to their Popery And talke to them of any other Church but the place they met in they understand you not Had I said But they are Baptized they would answer if men will abuse Baptisme as if a Minister should go and Baptize Indians must we needs say therefore they are a Church Baptisme doth not make a Church for it presupposeth a Church The sum is I saw so much difficulty that I did rather avoid that so undertooke to prove that many Congregations were true Churches besides those which you call Independent Churches In this therefore I desire satisfaction and hope I shall see something by this occasion but I am sure it would trouble holy Ministers to goe into such places and Administer Baptisme to the people abiding as now they are And now sir I come to examine your answer and the many faults you finde with me I shall take the Booke as it lies and goe over every page as briesly as I can First Page 1. your question whether I meane that all these meete in one person Ignorant Scandalous c. or singly of any of them Sir I was thinking of it my selfe but I did suppose the Reader would understand me to meane singly if men were grossely ignorant and would continue so wilfully though they are intreated and assistance offered to helpe but will not as is the case with us such deserve Excommunication and you affirme as much P. 17 19. For Scandalous conversations Scoffing at godlinesse I supposed no question would be made of it For Submitting to Church-Discipline Page 2. though I know some few Erastins did deny it yet the bulke of Christians would never question it being so plaine but however you finde afterward that I speake of such as are convinced of it which was my case but because I did not put it into the question though I expresse it afterwards you take advantage against me p. 18 19 20.25 no lesse then soure times to make it serve for an answer torne Well Sir I perceive your minde is not to make any favourable construction though you have my minde cleared in another place onely you lye on the catch Come on then Sir since this is your spirit let us see whether this will give you such an advantage the question is whether Ministers are bound to baptize Children of Parents groslyignorant c. Yes saith Mr. C. the Parents are Church-members and though notoriously scandalous they are Members to all Ordinances while they are tolerated tolerated say I what meane you by that you answer the Church hath not proceeded to Censure and Excommunicate for till excommunicated they are Church-members yea and then also by your Doctrine but then say I for excommunication I know no such thing nor any Church-discipline you say there are godly ones not covinced of this Ordinance and if godly ones then not wicked ones sure enough they may as well renounce it thus Discipline is rejected by all so then non-excommunication non-censuring doth not help one whit but their grosse ignorance c. is sufficient for me for Excommunication there is no such thing so my arguments stand the stronger unlesse there be a way to help by the pro-parent and Adoption which are your notions I see Sir you will plead any thing to make an answer and seeme to shake hands with the Erastians but if you and other Ministers as I perceive some such be so favourable to the opinion then never open your mouths more for Church government O say you and others there are godly people of the opinion well Sir what then put case Master Caw is not of the opinion but his Members are suppose there were some scandalous Member to be excommuicated you would doe it and you exhort the body to consent to you in it to doe it renitente plebe is a poore thin they rise up no sir wee will not consent to you in it for wee know no such Ordinance wee will hold Communion with him these are godly persons now what will you doe what brave worke we make in pleading for opinions For the explicite Church-Covenant you speake of in this page I will let it alone till p.

Repentance John required Repentance yea say you at first constitution he and Apostles did But Sir You know Tertullians minde concerning Adulterers 2.1 De pudicitid And Cyprian te's us it was the practise of some not to receive such againe Ep. 52. Synop pur Disp. 48. Tb. 31. shall persons now be as vile and worse for the continuance in the Church aggravates their ignorance and scandall then at the first constitution and shall I not now require Repentance of such before I Baptize by vertue of them yea and that the Repentance may in judgement of Charity give hopes of a true Repentance and if any will grant it for this one scandall I know not but the same Rule will reach for other Scandalls If you will Baptize all these ignorant ones and the Scandalous ones without any more a doe but to presse the Covenant which they know not on them as you say do if you please To conclude this Head of Selfe confutation I am not yet beaten off but that passage of the Leyden Professors doe a little favour me the question was whether if there be a great number in the Church who off●nd in Doctrine of Life may we now use Excommunication The answer is If men be openly and contumaciously corrupt Let the multitude be great yet to such godly Pastours ought not nor may give the Sacraments of Divine Grace but with one consent they must be denyed and commit the event to God because godly Pastours may not communicate the Signes of Grace to them to whom Christ doth openly deny them and forbids the Communicating of them Here I observe they doe not stand for the Excommunication of a multitude for these words Sacraments and Signes of Grace if there be Enallage numeri that they should meane onely the Lords Supper I should marvell at it that there should be so much paines taken in solving of the question and then to come and tell us onely of Suspension fromthe Supper which is so common a thing But for their reason I would make use of that and when they have brought me the Scripturall ground where Christ forbids the Ministers to give the Parent one Signe of Grace I will see if the same ground will not ●eny us to give the Child the other signe of Grace by vertue of this Parent For your Pro-parent and Adoption that comes in to be confidered in another place I must now answer to selfe-confucation Dr. Ames speakes something for me Conse l. 4. c. 27. Sect. 6. Qui aliquo modo in professione sua ad Ecclesiam pertinent sed foedus tamen Des apert● violant corum Infantes cum aliquo discrimine debent Baptizari it a scilicèt ut quod foedus requirit in ipfis deest per aliquos quantum fieri potest suppleatur 1. Nam distinctio aliqua inter puros impuros debet in sacris omnibus observari ad bonorum consolationem correctionem malorum omnium adificationem 2. Instituta Dei non possunt aliter ab omni pollutione couservari The Doctor I suppose would have Sureties joyned but if these Sureties cannot bee proved to be an appointment of God then hee is yet stronger for mee By this time I hope I have cleared my selfe in the Judgement of an indifferent Reader from Selfe-confutation I knew this Church-membership was the strongest Argument that could be brought and therefore mentioned it that Church-members might challenge any Ordinance while let alone I could not thinke otherwise but that therefore I was bound to administer the Seals as if their challenging which comes onely by reason of their Toleration in the Church would make my Administration warrantable though they are never so wicked and tolerated sinfully this I could not believe So that my Selfe confutation ariseth from something you put upon mee which I owne not the great strength then of your Booke against me I hope is weakned and all those answers from hence which you make great use of are no answers Before I passe to a further examination of your Answer let me propound one thing more wherein I heartily desire satisfaction from you being not cleare in the thing my selfe viz. Whether all the People in England under which we comprehend Wales be Members of true Churches for if it can be proved that all the Congregations in England are not true Churches then I should have an Argument strong enough against you but sir I am not so satisfied to say they are not nor yet so cleare to say they are Therefore I desire to learne In my Booke P. 43. I said I did but faintly acknowledge such a thing that all are Church members but afterward when I came to write in defence of the godly Presbyteriall Ministers whom I honour and reverence against the Separatists I said I dare not undertake to prove all the Congregations in England to be true Churches so that I doe not fly back because of your Booke Page 4. it was done long before seriously debating with my selfe what the Separatists would urge against me thus I phansied they would argue A Church is a company of those who are called and this call must be answered or else it is nothin To the visible profession of Faith in Christ and obedience unto Christ Ius Divin p. 37 according to the Gospell This is the Preybyterians definition say they But divers of the Congregations in the North of England and Wales and other places are not such Companies c. Ergo they are no Churches Definitio constat ex essentialibus and definitions if true are eternally true Now how can there be the effect where there is not the essentiall cause according to their own grant I would have answered if you speake of a pure visible Church you say right but there may be a true Church visible though divers corrupt Members as in Corinth Sardis c. To this I conceived they would reply thus as for Corinth Sardis c. We doe not deny it for there were reall Christians and visible Christians also though there were corrupt ones and these held up the essentiall cause of the Church but in divers of these Parishes we shall not sinde foure it may be so much as visible Saints if we take in knowledge and what that definition and Mr Cawdrys qualifications require for a visible Saint Besides what Corinth and Sardis had Ibidem was only by way of Calling as say the London Ministers but what ours are was and is by the Sword of the Magistrate King Henry the highth he left us Popish King Edward the sixth he takes away the mass-Masse-booke and sends the booke o● common-Common-prayer though the people love the other way yet if the King will have it so it must be so Queene Mary comes and shee turnes about againe the people follow her Queene Elizabeth shee takes away Masse againe if it were ten times in a yeare saith Mr. Rogers Fox Mart. vol. 3. the people will turne with the