this that the church may ordaine certaine thyngs according to the word of God. But if this epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the boke of Common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as I can not vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniurie whych go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them which we can neither heare nor see being kept close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouerty and nakednes of it being faine to ransake rifie vp euery darke corner to finde some thing to couer it with Therefore it were good before you toke any benefite of them to let thē come forth and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and ful out For now you geue men occasion to thinke that there are some other things in their Epistles whych you would be lothe the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is no man that fayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the church where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no mā seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hath left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other thyngs to vse that whych shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the church and constrined by the Prince And whereas you haue euer hitherto geuen the ordering of these thyngs to the churche howe come you nowe to ascribe it to the Bishops you meane I am sure the Bishops as we call Bishops heere in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the papists vnwares which when they haue spoken many things of the churche magnifically at the last they bring it nowe to the Doctors of the church nowe to byshops As forme although I doute not but there be many good men of the Byshoppes and very learned also and therfore very meete to be admitted into that consultation wherin it shal be cōsidered what things are good in the church yet in respect of that office and calling of a bishop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister pastor of the churche hath more interest and right in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any bishop or archbishop in the realme for as muche as he hath an ordinarie calling of God function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how thys authoritie pertaining to the whole church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certaine number that confusion may be auoyded and wyth the consent also of the churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery churche and of the communion and societie or participation and entercommuning of the churches togither by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Answere till the Admonition from the beginning of the 30. page VNto the places of Deuteronomic whych proue that nothyng oughte to be done in the churche but that whych God commaundeth and that nothyng should be added nor diminished First you answere that that was a precept geuen to the Iewes for that time whych had all things euen the least prescribed vnto them I see it is true whych is sayd that one absurditie graūted a hundred follow For to make good that things ought to be done besides the scripture and worde of God you are driuen to runne into parte of the error of the Manichees whych say that the olde Testament pertaineth not vnto vs nor bindeth not vs For what is it else then to say that these two places serued for the Iewes time and vnder the lawe For surely if these two places agree not vnto vs in time of the gospell I knowe none in all the olde Testament whych doe agree and I praye you what is heere sayde whych S. Iohn in the * Apocalipse saythe not where he shutteth vp the newe Testament in thys sorte I protest vnto euery mā whych heareth the prophecie of thys boke that whosoeuer addeth any thing to it the Lorde shall adde vnto him the plagues whych are wrytten in it and whosoeuer taketh away any thing from it the Lord shall take away his portion out of the boke of life and out of the things that are wrytten in it which admonition if you say pertaineth to that boke of the Apocalipse only yet you must remember that the same may be as truely sayd of any other boke of the scripture Then you are driuen to saye that the Iewes vnder the lawe had a more certaine direction and consequently a readyer waye then we haue in the time of the gospell of the whych time the Prophet sayeth that then a man shoulde not teache his neighbor they shal be so taught of God as if he should say that they that liue vnder the gospel should be all in comparison of that whych were vnder the lawe Doctors And Esay sayth that in the dayes of the gospell the people shall not stande in the outward courtes but he will bring them into the sanctuarie that is to say that they shoulde be all for their knowledge as learned as the Leuites and Priestes whych only had entraunce into it Now if the Iewes had precepts of euery the least action whych told them precisely how they should walke how is not their case in that poynt better then oures whych because we haue in many things but generall rules are to seeke oftentimes what is the will of God whych we should follow But let vs examine their lawes and compare them with oures in the matters pertaining to the church for whereas the question is of the gouernment of the church it is very impertinent that you speake of the iudicialies as though you had not yet learned to distinguishe betweene the Church and common wealth To the ordering and gouerning of the church they had only the moral and ceremoniall law we haue the same morall that they had what speciall direction therfore they enioy by the benefite of that we haue We haue no ceremonies but two the ceremonies or sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper we haue as certaine a direction to celebrate them as they had to celebrate their ceremonies and fewer and les difficulties can rise of oures then of theirs and we haue more plaine and expres doctrine to decide our cōtrouersies then they had for theirs What houre had they for their ordinarie and daily sacrifices was it not left to the order of the church what places were apointed in their seuerall dwellings to heare the woorde of God preached continually when they came not to Ierusalem the word was commaunded to be preached but no mention made what
A REPLYE TO AN answere made of M. Doctor VVhitegifre AGAINSTE THE ADMONITION to the Parliament By T. C. ISAIE 61. ver 1. For Syons sake I will not holde my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not rest vntill the righteousnes therof breake forthe as the lighte and the saluation thereof be as a burning lampâ— Ver. 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers keepe not silence and geue hym no rest vntill he repayre and set vp Ierusalem the prayse of the world The Printer to the Reader SOme perhaps will maruel at the newe impression of thys boke and so muche the more will they wonder because they shall see that with great confidence boldnes notwythstanding our most gracious Princes late published proclamation procured rather by the Byshops then willingly sought for by her maiestie whose mildnes is such that she were easyer led to yelde to the proclamation of the highest then drawne to proclaime any thing against hym were it not for the subtil perswasions and wicked dealings of thys horned generation as by their false doctrine and cruell practises is to bee seene and by the speciall motion of Gods spirite and hys protection it hath bene both attempted and ended But cease to muse good christian reader whosoeuer thou art and learne to know that no lawes were they neuer so hard and seuere can put out the force of Gods spirite in hys children nor any cruelty though it stretched it selfe so far as to sheding of bloud from which kynde of dealing the Byshops are not cleare as the Prysons in London the Gatehouse at Westminster c. can witnesse the Lord for geue them and vs our sinnes can discharge the sayntes and seruauntes of the Lord from going forwarde in that which is good For the profite therefore of the godly and their instruction haue we hazarded our selues and as it were cast our selues into suche daungers and troubles as shal be layed vpon vs if we come into the haÌ„ds of the persecuting Bishops From the which pray the Lord if it be hys will to delyuer vs if not yet that it woulde please hym to geue vs both patience to beare what so euer he shall geue them power and lyberty to lay vpon vs and constancy also to contynue in hys truth and the profession thereof vnto our lyues end Farewell in the Lord and prayse God for thys worke I. S. Faultes escaped Page 2. line 14. for arme read army pa. 60. line 30. for thys spirite read hys spirite Page 39. line 41. for when read whom pa. 39. line 47. for against them read agaynst hym Page 26. line 37. for appose read oppose pa. 23. line 31. for ioipon read loipon and for proegoron read proegoros pa. 10. li. 41. for kairoutiche read kairou tyche pa. 69. for dioceris diocesis Page 9. line 16. put a comma at speache and a full poynt at vse Page 106. line 12. for to breake read doe breake Page 118. line 31. in the ende therof adde whych thyng also M. Doctor graunteth Page 127. line 6. for I beleue read I wil beleue page 127. line 8. For the apostles read For the false Apostles page 129. line 51. for and more in the read and more to in the. Page 130. line 41. for sole meditation read sole mediation page 137. line 49. for and that it is read and it is page 138. line 4. for ingenium read ingenuum page 138. line 14. for necessary read necessarily page 141. line 15. for there is greater read there is a greater Page 142. line 32. for and other read an other page 144. line 7. for herevpon read herevnto Page 144. line 51. for celebrating in one kinde read celebrating it in one kinde Page 146. line 18. for the other vsed in the other vsed only in pa. 160. li. 23. for tute read true Page 163. line 43. for there were many read there were very many page 174. line 3. for Ambose read Ambrose page 188. line 29. for in England or in Ireland read and in England Page 189. line 8. for vicarse read vicares page 1â—8 in the margent for Concil Valense reade Concil Vasense page 201. in the margent adde to that of August lib. 2. de consolatione mortuorum cap. 5. page 207. line 42. read for catexochen read cathexochen Page 205. line 21. for possessed read dysposesssed Page 210. line 46. and other thyngs and do other thyngs pa. 214. li. 15. for iabon read labon Page 215. line 20. for or so much deceyued of read or so much as deceiued A short Table of the princypall poyntes entreated of in thys boke made according to the order of the Alphabet A  M. Doctors Anacletus counterfait 92. M. Doctors Anicetus counterfait 92. There are now no Apostles 63. The churche was established in the Apostles tymes 51. Apostles appoynted no archbyshoppes but byshoppes 92. Corruptions entred into the church immediatly after the times of the apostles 96. Apparell of the mynisters 71. c. Apparell of mourners is either hypocriticall or els daungerous to prouoke excessiue sorrow 201. Archbyshops archdeacons names vnlawfull 82. c. Archbyshops names are not so auncient as they be supposed 88. c. Archbyshops and archdeacons offyces vnlawfull 83. c. Archbishops offices as they were in times past haue now no place with vs and of the small prerogatiue which they had then aboue other byshops 122. c. Archbyshops not spoken of by Cyprian nor bishops such as oures is but of S. Paules bishops 98. c. Archdeacons in times past how much they differed from oures now 96. Arguments of authority negatiuely or affirmatiuely out of the scripture good the vse of theÌ„ when they be drawne from men 25. B  QuestioÌ„s about Baptisme answered 172. c. QuestioÌ„s ministred to infaÌ„ts in Baptisme 169 Crossing in Baptisme wherof it rose 170. c Basile a poore Metropolitane 94. Byshops in tymes past most vnlike oure byshops now 106. c. General faults of the Boke of coÌ„mon prayer 131. Prescript forme of prayer at Burials inconuenient 200. Les lamenting the dead and les charges about Burials permitted vnto vs then to those vnder the law 200. c. Buryall sermons inconuenient 201. c. Buryall places where they were in the olde churches 69. C  Cathedral churches in times past those which are now greatly differ 204. Cathedral churches rightly called dens do hurt the good which they might do if they were conuerted into colledges or houses of study 205. â— â–ª Ceremonies must be tried by rules in the scripture and by which 27. Ceremonies making in the church belongeth vnto Ecclesiasticall persons 192. Difference betwene placing Ceremonies in the church which were not besâ—â—e tollerating those which are already placed 25. Chauncelers iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Church hath not power to ordayne whether preaching or ministring of the sacramentes shal be priuate or publike 28. Church must not be framed vnto the common wealth but the
cause In the. 240. page he reasoneth thus that the surplice c. be notes and notes of good ministers therefore they be good notes of ministers which is a fallacion of compositiō when a man thinketh that whatsoeuer is sayd of a thing by it selfe may be sayd of it when it is ioyned with an other In the. 149. page he reasoneth thus those which authorised the booke of Common prayer were studious of peace building the churche therefore those which finde fault with it are pullers downe of the church and disturbers of the peace which is a fallacion of the Accident when a man thinketh that euery thing which is verified of the Subiect may be likewise verefied of that which is annexed vnto it The further confutation of which arguments I refer vnto their places There be diuers other which he hath which are so farre from iust conclusions as they haue not so muche as any colour of likelyhode of argument which I can not tell where to lodge vnles I put them in the common Inne which is that which is called the ignorance of the Elench as in the. 69. page when he concludeth thus that Cyprian speaketh not of the bishop of Rome ergo he speaketh of an archbyshop And in the. 71. page There must be superioures ergo one minister must be superiour vnto an other There must be degrees therfore there must be one archbyshop ouer a prouince And in the. 73. there was one ouer euery congregation therefore there was one ouer all the ministers in the prouince These and a number like vnto these M. Doctor hath scattered throughout his boke which as Nero sayd of his master Senecas works cleaue together like sand thus let it be sene whose arguments are most iustly concluded those of the admonition or these of M. Doctors An answere to the exhortation to the eyuill Magistrates IT is more thē I thought could haue hapned vnto you once to admit into your mynde thys opinion of Anabaptisme of your brethren which haue alwayes had it in as great detestatiō as your selfe preached against it as much as your selfe hated of the folowers fauourers of it as much as your selfe And it is yet more strange that you haue not doubted to geue out such slaunderous reports of them but dare to present such accusations to the holy and sacred seat of iustice thereby so much as in you lyeth to corrupt it to call for the sword vpon the innocent which is geuen for their mayntenance and safetie that as it is a boldnes vntollerable so could I hardly haue thought that it could haue fallen into any that had caryed but the countenaunce and name of a professor of the gospell much les of a doctor of dyuinitie Before you will ioyne with vs in this cause you wil place vs whether we wil or no in the campe of the Anabaptistes to the ende you myght thereby bothe withdraw all from ayding vs which are godly minded as for the you fearing as it semeth the insufficiencie of your pen myght haue the sword to supply your want other wayes And if we be found in theyr campe or be such disturbers of the quiet estate of the church defacers of such as be in authoritie maintayners of licenciousnes and lewde lybertie as you do seme to charge vs with we refuse not to go vnder those punishmentes that some of that wicked sect receiued for iust recompence of their demerites You say you will not accuse any I know it is for want of no good wil that you do not accuse them of whose condemnation and extreame punishment we myght be sure if your hand were as strong as your hart But you suspect the authors of the admonition and their fautors * Charitie is not suspitious Let vs therefore see whether there be iust matter to beare out and to vphold this suspition You wil beare men in hand that if we be not already full Anabaptistes yet we are in the way thither the footesteps whereby you trace vs must be considered To the first article It is all true you here alleage of the Anabaptistes God be praysed there is nothing of it true in vs If through these questions moued the church be disquieted the disquietnes riseth in that the truth and sinceritie which is offered is not receyued VVe seeke it in no tumultuous manner but by humble sute vnto them to whome the redresse of thinges pertayne and by teaching as our callinges wil suffer If all those are to be counted in the way to Anabaptisme which moue controuersies when the gospell is preached Then those that taught that the Gentilles were to be preached vnto when as the most of the beleuing Iewes which likewise preached the gospell thought otherwise are to be counted in the way to Anabaptisme Likewise those that preached that circumcision was not necessary vnto saluation when as a great number of Christians at the first thought it necessary Then maister Zuinglius Oecolampadius smelled of Anabaptisme which went about to ouerthrow dyuerse things which maister Luther helde I could goe further with thys but I content my selfe wyth these examples If any be brought in doubt or hatred of the truth hereby or any man take occasion to be contentious it is not in the nature of the doctrine which is taught but in the corruption of their myndes nor it is not offence geuen but taken nor thys doctryne can be no more charged then the rest of the gospell which is a * sworde that cutteth a citie or kingdome in sunder and setteth a * fire where there was none and putteth contention betwene the father and the sonne But what is to geue an incurable offence vnto the simple and matter to the enemie to reioyce in to all good Christyans of teares and weeping if thys be not to make the world thinke that numbers of those which professe the gospell are infected wyth the poison of Anabaptisme whych can not be touched wyth the smallest poynt of it As for the magistrate and authority we acknowledge the lawfulnes necessity and singular commodity of it we commēd it in our sermons to others we pray for them as for those of whose good or euill estate hangeth the flourishing or decay of the common wealth and church both We loue them as our fathers and mothers we feare them as our Lords and maisters and we obay thē in the Lord and for the lord If there be any thyng wherin we do not according to that which is commaunded it is because we can not be persuaded in our consciences that we may so doe wherof we are ready to render a reason out of the word of God and if that wil not serue forthwith to submit our selues to that punishment that shall be awarded against vs And herein we first cal the Lord God to witnes of our meaning and then we referre our selues to the consciences of all men in the sight of God. To the second Article There
we teach nothing les thē that there is no true church but in Englande If the churches be considered in the partes whether minister or people there is none pure vnspotted and this is the faith of the true Church and not of the Donatistes If it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outward pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I know if men would labor to purge it The Donatists vaūted them selues to be exempted from sinne and what likelyhode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansy of the Donatists To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of religion denying it to be true I reserue the further answer to another place To the next section Salomon sayth the the beginning of the words of an vnwise mā is folishnes but the later end of thē is mere madnes euen so it falleth out by you for whilest you suffer your self to be caryed hedlong of your affections you hurle you know not what nor at whome what so euer commeth first to hande speake things that the eyes and eares of all men heare see to be otherwise Whilest you compare them to Anabaptists Donatists some frend of yours myght thinke you said truely because such alwayes seking darke and solitary places might happely haue some fauorers whych are not knowen But when you ioyne them with y papists which are commonly knowne to all men whose doctrine they impugne as wel as you whose marks badges they can les away with then you whose company they flie more then you whose punishment they haue called for more then you for your part haue done and therfore are condemned of them as cruell when you oftentimes cary away the name of mildnes and moderation whych forsothe knowe as you haue professed no commaundement in the scrypture to put heretikes to death when I say you ioyne them thus with papistes you do not only leese your credite in these vntrue surmises wherein I trust with the indifferent reader you neuer had any but you make all other thyngs suspected whych you affirme so that you geue men occasion to take vp the common prouer be against you I will trust you no further then I see you After you haue thus yoked them wyth the papistes you go about to shew wherin they draw wyth them Wherin first I aske of you if all they that affirm or do any thing that the enemies of the church do are forthwith ioyned and conspired wyth them against the church what say you to s Paule that ioyned with the * Pharisies in the resurrection with the false apostles in taking no * wages of the Corinthians to oure sauioure Christe which spake against the Iewes whych were then the only people of God as the Gentils did whych were their ennemies wil you say therfore that either S. Paule ioyned with the Pharisies or false Apostles against the church or that our sauioure Christ ioyned against the Iewes wyth the Gentiles but let vs see your slaunders particularly To the first They do not deny but there is a visible church of God in England therfore your saying of them y they do almost in plaine and flat termes say that we haue not so much as any outward face shew of the true church argueth that you haue almost no loue in you which vpon one word once vttered contrary to the tenure of their boke course of their whole life surmise this of thē and how truly you conclude of that word skarce it shall appeare when we come to that place To the second I haue answered this in the 2. article of Anabaptisme the you charge vs with To the third Thys also is answered in the thirde To the fourth I answer that they do not condemne it wholely but finde fault with it as in some poynts disagreeing wyth the word of God. To the fifth All men shall perceiue when I come to that place howe you haue racked their words to an other sense then they spake them In the meane season it is enough that they confes that reading in the church is godly To the sixth I haue answeared in the tenth Article of Anabaptisme To the seuenth I answer that * Doeg when he sayd that Dauid came to Abimelech said nothing but truth and when they that witnessed against Christe that he sayde * destroy the temple and in three dayes I will build it vp againe sayde nothing but that our sauior Christ sayd But yet Doeg was a slaunderer and the other false witnesses because the one spake it of minde to hurt the other vnderstode it of an other temple then oure sauioure Christ ment it So although you doe in parte rehearse their wordes yet taking them contrary to their meaning whych myght easely appeare by the circumstances I see not howe you can be free from these faultes vnles it be done ignorantly whych I wishe were true for your owne sake And here I wil desire thee gentle reader to marke with what conscience this man sayth that they are ioyned and confederate with papists against the church The papistes mislyke of the boke of common prayer for nothing els but because it swarueth from their masse boke and is not in all poynts like vnto it And these men mislike it for nothyng els but because it hath too much likelyhode vnto it And iudge whether they be more ioyned wyth the papists whych would haue no communion nor felowship wyth them neither in ceremonies nor doctrine nor gouernment or they whych forsaking their doctrine retaine parte of their ceremonies and almost their whole gouernment that is they that seperate them selues by three walles or by one they that would be parted by the brode sea from them or which would be deuided by narowe water where they may make a bridge to come in againe and displace the truthe of the gospell as they haue done in times past They that would not only vnhorse the Pope but also take away the stirrops whereby he should neuer get into the saddle agayne or they which being content wyth that that he is vnhorsed leaue his ceremonies hys gouernment especially as stirrops whereby he may leape vp againe when as occasion serueth They that are content only to haue cut the armes and body of the tree of antichristianitie or they which wold haue stumpe and roote all vp The last section After you haue all to be blacked and grimed wyth the inke of Anabaptisme Donatisme and Papisme those whome you found cleare from the least spot or specke of any of them you whet the sword and blow the fire and you will haue the godly magistrate minister of your choler and therfore in stead of feare of leesing the multitude of your liuings forgoing your pompe and pride of men and delicacy of fare vnlawfull iurisdiction which you haue and heereafter loke for conscience religion and
sette downe hys iudgement before needed not to haue repeated it here agayne But the Greeke wordes you say catakyrieuousin kai catexousiazousin doe signifie to rule wyth oppression and why may not I saye that thys preposition cata doth not signifie heere a peruersnesse of rule but an absolutenesse and a full power and iurisdiction as catamathein catalambanein is not to learne or to perceyue euilly and peruersly but to learne exactly and to perceiue throughly and perfectly but what neede we to followe coniectures in so playne a matter when as Saint Luke vseth the simple wordes without any composition of exousiazein Kai Kyrieuein doe you not perceyue that the preposition wherein you put so great confidēce deceiueth you besides the manifest vntruth you commit in saying that all three Euangelistes haue katexousiazousin katakyrieuousin Furthermore you say that our sauioure Christ sayeth not that no man shall be great amongst them but he that desireth to be great amongst them He had sayd so before when he had sayd it shall not be so amongst you and therefore needed not to repeate it and yet an other Euangelist sayeth not he that desireth to be great but let the greatest among you be as the least VVherby he doth not reprehend only the desire of being great but will not haue them to be one aboue an other To the last reason Last of all you conclude that our sauiour Christ in the 20. of Mathew reproueth the ambition of the sonnes of zebede and in the 22. of S. Luke all the rest of the Apostles I graunte you he dothe so and that coulde not be done better then in tellyng them that they desired things not meete for them and which woulde not stande with their calling And if as you say the ambition only was reprehended and the desire of rule to oppresse others wyth the answere you attribute to our sauioure is not so fitte For they myght haue replyed and sayde that he forbad tyrannicall rule and oppression of their inferioures but they desired that which was a moderate and well ruled gouernment And semeth it vnto you a probable thing that S. Luke meaneth tyrantes and oppressors when as he sayth they are called beneficiall or gracious Lordes men doe not vse to call oppressors liberall or bountifull Lordes Neyther is it to be thought of all the Apostles that they desired rule one ouer an other to the ende that they would vse crueltie or tyrannie or oppression one ouer an other for that were to doe them great iniurie Besides that it is sayde that the rest of the disciples disdayned at the two brethren whyche they would not haue done if they had had any purpose or mynde to haue oppressed them For then they would haue contemned them rather then haue disdayned them if they had broken out into suche grose faultes For Aristotle teacheth that nemesis which is the same that aganactesis is the verbe whereof the Euangelist vseth is agaynst those that are supposed of them that beare the disdayne to be lifted vp higher and into better estate then they are worthy of whych agreeth wyth that interpretation whyche I haue alleaged and can not agree wyth the other whych you set downe For who speaking properly would speake after thys sort The residue of the Apostles disdayned at the two brethren or thought them vnworthy that they should beare tyrannicall rule ouer them To the section that beginneth touching the place in 23. of Mathew and so vntill howe aptly Concerning the exposition and sence of that place I agree with you and suppose that it is quoted of the authors of the admonition rather to note the ambition of certayne which gape greedely at these byshopprickes which we haue to the ende they mighte be saluted by the name of Lordes and honoures then to proue that one minister should not haue dominion ouer an other And therefore although these places be agaynst no lawfull authoritie of any estate or condition of men yet as they are aptly alledged against the bishop of Rome the one against his estate and authoritie simply the other agaynst hys tyrannie and euill vsage of hym selfe in that authoritie so it may be aptly alleaged agaynst any other which shall fall into the like fault of the byshop of Rome The purenesse that we boast of is the innocencie of our sauioure Christ who shall couer all our vnpurenesse not impute it vnto vs And for so much as fayth * purifyeth the hart we doubt not but God of his goodnes hath begon our sanctification and hope that he will make an ende of it euen vntill the day of our Lord Iesus Albeit we holde dyuers poyntes more purely then they doe which impugne them yet I know none that by comparison hath eyther sayd or written that all those that thinke as we doe in those poyntes are more holy and more vnblameable in life then any of those that thinke otherwise If we say that in those poynts which we holde from them we thinke soundlier then they doe we are ready to proue it If we say also that we lyue not so offensiuely to the world commonly by getting so many lyuinges into our handes as would finde foure or fiue good learned able ministers all the worlde will beare vs witnes Other purenes we take not vpon vs And therefore as the name was first by the Papistes maliciously inuented so is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed Whereas you say that they are Puritanes which suppose the church which they haue deuised to be without all impuritie if you meane without sinne you doe notably slaunder them and it is already answered If you meane that those are Puritanes or Catharans which do set forth a true and perfect patern or platforme of reforming the church then the marke of thys heresy reacheth vnto those which made the booke of common prayer which you say is a perfect and absolute rule to gouerne this church wherein nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer nor too much As for the Catharans which were the same that are otherwise called Nouatians I know no suche opynion they had they whome you charge are as farre from their corruption as you be An answere to that which is contayned in the. 20. 21. and 22. page vntill Now if eyther godly Councels YOu geue occasion of suspition that your end will be skarce good which haue made so euill a beginning For whereas you had gathered out of the Admonition that nothing should be placed in the Church but that God hath in hys word commaunded as though the wordes were not playne enough you wil geue them some light by your exposition And what is that you answere that it is as much as though they would say nothing is to be tollerated in the church of Christe touching eyther doctryne order ceremonies disciplyne or gouernment except it be expressed in the word of god Is thys to interprete is it all one to say nothing
God as also as S. Paule teacheth a declaration and profession that wee are at one with oure brethren so that it is fyrst a sacrament of the knitting of all the body generally and of euery member particularly with the heade and then of the members of the body one with an other Now therefore seeing that euery particular church and body of Gods people is a representation and as it were a liuely portraiture of the whole church and body of Christ it followeth that that which we can not doe with all the church scattered throughout the whole world for the distances of places whereby we are seuered we ought to doe with that church whereunto God hath raunged vs as much as possibly or conueniently may be The departing therefore of the rest of the church from those three or fower is an open profession that they haue no communion fellowshippe nor vnitie with them that doe communicate and lykewise of those three or foure that they haue none with the rest that ioyne not them selues thereunto when as both by the many grapes making one cuppe and cornes making one loafe that whole church being many parsons are called as to the vnitie which they haue one with an other and altogether amongst them selues so to the declaration and profession of it by receiuing one with an other and altogether amongst them selues And as if so be that we do not celebrate as we may possibly and conueniently the supper of the Lord we thereby vtter our want of loue towardes the Lord which hath redeemed vs so if we doe not communicate together with the churche so farre forth as we may do conueniently we betray the want of our loue that we haue one towardes an other And therefore S. Paul dryuing heereunto willeth that one shoulde tary for an other reprehending that when one preuenteth and commeth before an other saying that that is to take euery man hys owne supper and not to celebrate the Lords supper Not that so many men or women as there came so many tables were for that had not bene possible in so great assemblyes but that they sorted them selues into certayne companyes and that they came scattering one after an other and that in stead of making one supper of the Lord they dyd make dyuers These things being considered the reason which the Admonition vseth in the 185. page where thys matter is spoken of which is drinke you all of thys is not so rydiculous as M. Doctor maketh it For although that it doe neyther proue that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessitie receyue yet it proueth that as all they which were present dyd communicate And so as many as in the church are fit to receiue the sacraments or may conueniently receiue them together shoulde follow that example in celebrating the supper together And it is probably to be thought that if our sauiour Christ had not bene restrayned by the law of God touching the passeouer vnto hys owne family and to as many onely as would serue to eate vppe a Lambe by them selues that he would haue celebrated hys supper amongst other of hys disciples and professoures of hys doctryne But for so muche as it was meete that hee shoulde celebrate hys supper there and then where and when hee dyd celebrate hys passeouer for the cause before by me alleaged it pleased hym to keepe hys first supper with the fewer for that the law of communication vnto the passeouer which was ioyned wyth the supper woulde not admit any greater number of communicants then was sufficient to eate vp the passeouer And althoughe it be cleare and playne that when it is sayde drincke ye all of thys and tary one for an other these sayinges are ment of that particulare congregation or assembly which assemble themselues together to be taught by one mouth of the mynister yet I haue therefore put thys caution as muche as may be possyble least any man shoulde cauill as though I would haue no communion vntill all the godly through the world should meete together Likewise I haue put thys caution as much as may be conueniently for although it be possible that a perticulare church may communicate at one table in one day and together yet maye the same be inconuenient for dyuers causes As if the number should be very great so that to haue them all communicate together it would require suche a long tyme as the tarying out of the whole action would hazarde eyther the lyfe or at least the health of dyuers there Agayne for as much as other some being at the churche it is meete that other should be at home vppon occasyon of infantes and suche lyke thinges as require the presence of some to tary at home In these cases and suche lyke the inconueniences doe delyuer vs from the gilte of vncharitablenes and forsaking the fellowship of the church for that wee doe not heere seuere oure selues but are by good and iust causes seuered which gilte wee shall neuer escape if beside suche necessarye causes wee pretende those that are not or hauing not so muche as a pretence yet notwythstanding seperate our selues as the dayly practise thorough out the church doth shew But it may be obiected that in thys poynt the booke of Common prayer is not in fault which doth not only not forbid that all the church should receiue together but also by a good godly exhortation moueth those that be present that they should not departe but communicate altogether It is true that it doth not forbid and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose but that I say is not enough for neither should it suffer that three or foure should haue a communion by them selues so many being in the church meete to receiue and to whom the supper of the Lord doth of right appertaine it ought to prouide that those whych woulde wythdrawe them selues shoulde be by Ecclesiasticall discipline at all times and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment brought to communicate wyth their brethren And thys is the law of God and thys is now and hath bene heeretofore the practise of churches reformed All men vnderstand that the passeouer was a figure of the Lords supper and that there should be as straight bonds to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliuerance as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egipt But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time when the passeouer was eaten was excommunicated as it may appeare in the boke of Numbers where he sayeth that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane his soule should be cut off from amongst the people of god Therfore thys neglect or contempt rather of the Lordes supper ought to be punished wyth no les punishment especially when as after the church hath proceeded in that order whych our sauior Christ appoynteth of admonishing they be not sory for their fault and promise
as oure lyfe is a continuall meditation of death it is not salfe to vse thys custome for that it tyeth our cogitation to so short a tyme as the tyme of buryall is which ought to be extended to the whole course of our lyfe But I answere that it may be well done wythout any such funerall sermons when the minister taketh occasion of the death of any whych is lately departed to speake of the vanity of the life of man Whether M. doctor lyketh the reformation or no so it is in the church where M. Caluin was pastor hath ben for these many yeres And although the Englishe church in Geneua had that in the boke of common prayer yet as I haue heard of those whych were there present it was not so vsed And if it had bene yet therby it is not proued that M. Caluin allowed of it For wyth thyngs wherin ther was no great and manifest disorder M. Caluin dyd beare that whych he lyked not of And there being no papists in all the city and al being wel instructed there was no such danger in a funerall sermon there as is here amongst vs where there is many papists and mo ignorant I will say nothyng of the great abuse of those whych hauing otherwyse to lyue on of the church take nobles for euery such sermon and sometime a mourning gowne whych causeth the papistes to open their mouthes wide and to say that the marchandise of sermons is much dearer then of the masse for that they might haue for a grote or six pence and the sermon they cannot haue vnder a roūder sum That must be remembred whych I had almost forgotten howe vntruely and slaunderously M. doctor sayth that the authors of the admonition do compare the sermon wyth a trentall or a masse For whē I say in stead of the masse we haue the holy Communion doe I compare or lyken the communion to the masse and yet this is M. doctors charitable collection which gathereth thyngs whych no man letteth fall Touching the place of buryall I haue spoken before And although it be not to be mislyked that there should be a cōmon place to bury in yet the places whych M. doctor poynteth vs vnto proue the cleane contrary For by the story of Abrahams place of buryall it appeareth that the manner was that euery one was buryed in hys owne seuerall groūd as may appeare also by that that the euangelist sayth that there was a field bought to bury the strangers in whych had no place of their owne whych was also vsed sometimes in the churches vnder the gospell as appeareth by the story of Theodoret whych I haue before recited in the later end of a funeral oratien which Gregory Nazianzene made of the death of hys brother Cesarius And so by this reason M. doctor wold haue euery one buryed in hys owne possession To the next section I haue answeared before where I haue entreated of churchyng women and of prayer it foloweth to speake vnto that in the. 205. and. 206. pa. TO pas by the prophane prouerbe here vsed which matcheth mad men women children togither most vnsemely for a D. of diuinity especially handling diuine matters for the singing of psalmes by course and side after side although it be very auncient yet it is not commēdable and so much the more to be suspected for that the deuil hath gone about to get it so great authority partly by deriuing it from Ignatius time and partly in making the world beleue that thys came from heauen and that the angels were heard to sing after thys sorte whych as it is a mere fable so is it confuted by hystoriographers whereof some ascribe the begynning of thys to Damasus some other vnto Flauianus Diodorus Frō whēce so euer it came it can not be good considering that when it is graūted y all the people may praise God as it is in singing of psalmes there this ought not to be restrained vnto a few wher it is lawful both with hart and voyce to sing the whole psalme there it is not mete that they should sing but the one halfe wyth their heart and voice and the other with their heart only For where they may both wyth heart and voice sing there the heart is not enough Therfore besides the incommodity whych commeth thys way in that being tossed after thys sort men can not vnderstande what is song these other two inconueniences come of thys forme of singing and therfore is banyshed in all reformed churches Vnto two very good reasons whych the admonition vseth to shewe the inconnenience of making curtesy and stāding at the name of Iesus and at the gospell rather then at other names of God and the rest of the scripture wherof the one is that it is against decencye and good order whych is broken by scraping of the feete and the other y it may brede a dangerous opinion of the inequality either of the sonne of God with the other persons or of the gospels with other scriptures M. doctor sayth y it is an indifferent thyng and neyther taketh away their reasons nor setteth down any of hys own thys is a slēder defence And it is no malicious dealing to note those faults whych are so generall so open yet notwithstanding vncorrected or vnreformed by those by whom M. d. wold make vs beleue that the church is best gouerned But I pray you tel me why do you cōdemn the seruing of two cures the alow the hauing of two benefices If it be no fault to haue two benefices how is it one to haue two cures for the curate is better able to read hys seruice in .ij. places thē the pastor to discharge his office in .ij. churches As for the speche of the cathedral churches either it is nothing or els it is fals For if he say y ther is either in al those cathedral churches one or in euery of those 12. churches one which is able to cōfute papists c. what great thing saith he which sayeth no more of all these churches then is to be found in one poore house of the vniuersity whose rents are skarce three hundred pound by yeare yea what hath he sayd of them whych was not to be founde in them euen in Queenes Maryes tyme when there was yet some one almoste in euerye Churche whych for feare dissemblyng was able notwythstanding to confute the Papistes Anabaptistes Puritanes And if he meane that in those .xij. houses the worst of the Prebendaries are hable to defend the truth agaynst all Papists c. all men do know the vntruthe of it so that althoughe thys sentence be very doubtfully put forthe yet how so euer it be taken it is as M. Doctor hath ryghtly termed it a mere brag And yet I doubt not and am well assured that there be diuers godly learned men whych haue lyuings in those places but for all that they cease not therefore
many meete and where be the examples of the olde church which had besydes the temple at Ierusalem erected vppe synagogues in euery towne to heare the worde of God and mynister the cyrcumcysion what is become of the commaundement of our sauioure Christ whych * wylled his discyples that they should preache openly and vpon the house toppes that which they heard in the eare of hym and secreately and howe doe we obserue the example of our sauyour Christ who to delyuer hys doctryne from all suspytion of tumultes and other dysorders sayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the synagogues albeit the same were very daungerous vnto hym the example of the * Apostles that dyd the same For as for the tyme of persecution when the church dare not nor is not meete that it should shewe it selfe to the ennemy no not then is the word of God nor the sacraments priuately preached or ministred neyther yet ought to be For althoughe they be done in the house of priuate man yet because they are ought to be ministred in the presence of the congregation there is neyther priuate preaching nor priuate baptisme For like as where so euer the Queenes maiestie lyeth there is the Courte althoughe it be in a Gentleman hys house so wheresoeuer the churche meeteth that place is not to be holden priuate as touching the prayers preachings and sacraments that shal be there ministred So that I denye vnto you that the churche hathe power to ordaine at her pleasure whether preaching or ministring of sacramentes should be priuate or publicke when they ought not to be but where the church is and the church ought not to assemble if it be not letted by persecution but in open places And when it is driuen from them those places where it gathereth it selfe togither although they be otherwise priuate yet are they for the time that the churches doe there assemble and for respect of the worde and sacraments that are there ministred in the presence of the church publike places And so you see those whome you charge slaunderously wyth conuenticles are faine to glase vp the windowes that you open to secreate and priuate conuenticles The Answere from Nowe if either godly councels vnto I trust M. Caluins iudgement will weigh HEere are brought in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and councels as dumme persons in the stage only to make a shewe and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersye there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strength of hys cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustin whych was a great time after them And if the godly councels coulde haue helped heere it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of mē the credite of many is better then of one and that thys is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is loked vnto in a matter of debate more then theirs of the common sorte so the iudgement of a councell where many learned men be gathered together caryeth more likelyhode of truthe wyth it then the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall councell much more then if it be a generall and therfore you do your cause great iniurie if you could alledge them and do not Thys is once to be obserued of the reader throughout your whole boke that you haue well prouided that you would not be taken in the trip for misalledging the scriptures for that onles it be in one or two poynts we heare continually instead of Esay and Ieremy S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the Prophets and Apostles S. Augustin and S. Ambrose kai to en te phake myron Dionysius Areopagita Clement c. And therfore I can not tell wyth what face we can call the papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures who in the controuersies whych rise amongst our selues flie so farre from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if thys be a sufficient proofe of things to say suche a Doctor sayde so suche a councell decreed so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faith may be shaken And therfore because you haue no proofe in the worde of God we comfort our selues assured that for so muche as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Bishops and of other things which are in question be not in heauen that they wil fall and come to the ground from whence they were taken Nowe it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earthe and that they are of men and not of God The answearer goeth about to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtained yet he may well know that it is no good argument to proue that they are good For as the best earth bringeth forth weedes so do the best men bring forth lies and errors But let vs heare what is brought that if thys visarde and shewe of truthe be taken away all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the first place of S. Augustine there is nothing against any thing whych we hold for thys that the church may haue thyngs not expressed in the scripture is not againste that it oughte to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the scripture whych are not by plaine termes expressed in the scripture But against you it maketh muche ouerturneth all your building in this boke For if in those things whych are not expressed in the scripture that is to be obserued of the Church whych is the custome of the people of God and decree of oure forefathers then howe can these things be varyed according to time place persons whych you say should be when as that is to be retained which the people of God hath vsed the decrees of the forefathers haue ordained And thē also how can we do safelier then to folow the apostles customes and the churches in their time which we are sure are our for fathers the people of god Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I wil not enter now to discus whether it were wel done to fast in al places according to the custome of the place
bowes because the Paganes dyd vse so and that they should not rest from their laboures those dayes that the paganes dyd that they should not keepe the first day of euery moneth as they dyd * An other councell decreed that the christians should not celebrate feastes on the birth dayes of the Martyrs because it was the maner of the heathen whereby it appeareth that both of singulare men and of councels in making or abolyshing of Ceremonies heede hath beene taken that the Christians shoulde not be lyke vnto the Idolaters no not in those things which of them selues are most indifferent to be vsed or not vsed It were not harde to shewe the same considerations in the seuerall things which are mentioned of in thys admonition as for example in the ceremonies of prayer which is heere to bee handled wee reade that Tertullian would not haue the Christians sitte after they had prayed because the idolaters dyd so but hauing shewed thys in generall to be the pollicy of God first and of hys people afterwarde to put as muche difference as can be commodiously betwene the people of God and others whych are not I shal not neede to shewe the same in the particulares Furthermore as the wisedome of God hathe thoughte it the best way to keepe hys people from infection of idolatry to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to kepe hys people in the vnity of the truth there is no better way then that they should be moste like one to an other and that as much as possibly may be they shuld haue all the same ceremonies And therfore S. Paule to establishe this order in the church of Corinth that they shoulde make their gatherings for the pore vpon the firste day of the Saboth whych is our sunday alleageth thys for a reason that he had so ordained in other churches so that as children of one father and seruauntes of one family he will haue all the churches not only haue one diet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuery in vsing the same ceremonies Thys rule did the great councell of Nice follow when it ordained y where certaine at the feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason wherof is added whych is that one custome oughte to be kepte throughout all the churches It is true that the diuersity of ceremonies ought not to cause the churches to dissent one wyth an other but yet it maketh much to the auoyding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnity not only in doctrine but also in Ceremonies Nowe we see plainely that as the forme of oure seruice and Leyturgie commeth to neare that of the papistes so it is farre different from that of other churches reformed and therfore in bothe these respectes to be amended An other faulte there is in the whole seruice or Lyturgie of Englande for that it maintaineth an vnpreaching ministery and so consequently an vnlawfull ministery I say it maintaineth not so muche in that it appoynteth a number of psalmes and other prayers and chapters to be red whych may occupye the time whych is to be spent in preaching wherin notwythstanding it ought to haue bene more wary considering that the deuil vnder this coloure of long prayer did thus in the kingdome of antichriste banish preaching I say not so much in that poynt as for that it requireth necessarily nothyng to be done by the minister whych a childe of ten yeare olde can not doe as well and as lawfully as that man wherewyth the boke contenteth it selfe Neyther can it be shifted in saying this is done for want of able men to be ministers for it may be easely answeared that first the want of sufficient ministers ought to be no cause for men to breake the vnchāgeable lawes of God whych be that none maye be made minister of the churche whych can not teache that none minister the sacraments whych do not preache For althoughe it might be graunted whych thing I woulde not denye no not when there are enough sufficient ministers that they may appoynt some godly graue man whych can do nothing else but reade to be a reader in the churche yet that may not be graunted that they maye make of one that can doe nothyng but reade a minister of the gospell or one whych may haue power to minister the sacramentes Besides that howe can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers when as there be put out of the ministerye men that be able to serue God in that calling and those put in their roumes whych are not able when there are numbers also whych are fit to serue and neuer sought for nor once required to take any ministery vpon them If therfore it were lawfull to plead want of able ministers for this dumbe ministery whych is altogither vnlawfull yet woulde thys plea neuer be good vntill suche time as bothe those were restored whych are put out and all other sought forth and called vpon whych are fit for that purpose Againe it can not be sayde iustly that they haue taken these reading ministers vntill suche time as better may be gotten for if the church could procure able ministers and should desire that they mighte be ordained ouer them they can not obtaine that considering that these reading ministers haue a free hold and an estate for terme of their liues in those churches of the whych they are such ministers so that by thys meanes the sheepe are not only committed to an idoll shepheard I might say a wolfe and speake no otherwise then Aug. speaketh in that a not preaching minister hath entrance into the church but the dore also is shutte vpon him and sparred against any able minister that might haply be found oute There is a third fault whych likewise appeareth almost in the whole body of this seruice and Liturgie of England and that is that the profit whych might haue come by it vnto the people is not reaped Whereof the cause is for that he whych readeth is not in some places heard and in the most places not vnderstāded of the people through the distance of place betweene the people and the minister so that a great part of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hathe curssed them or blessed them whether he hath red in Latine or in English all the whych riseth vpon the words of the boke of seruice whych are that the minister should stand in the accustomed place For therevpon the minister in saying morning and euening prayer sitteth in the chauncell wyth hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secreate talke wyth God whych the people myghte not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after morning prayer for saying a nother number of prayers he climeth vp to the further end of the chauncel and runneth as farre from the people as the wall wil
let him as though there were some variance betwene the people and the minister or as though he were afraide of some infection of plage And in dede it renueth the memory of the Leuitical priesthode whych did withdrawe himselfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinnes of the people Likewise for Mariage he cometh backe againe into the body of the church and for baptisme vnto the church dore what comelines what decency what edifying is thys Decencie I say in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and after that sort where he can worst be harde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the primitiue church both the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sitting amongste the rest to the ende he myght be the better heard rose not that only but that he stode in the midst of the people that his voyce might as much as might be come indifferently to all their eares and so standing both prayed and preached Now if it be said for the chapters Letany there is commaundement geuen that they shuld be red in the body of the church in deede it is true and therof is easely perceiued this disorder whych is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end and partly in the further end of the chauncell For seeing that those are red in the body of the church that the people may both heare and vnderstand what is red what shuld be the cause why the rest should be red farther of vnles it be that either those things are not to be heard of them or at the least not so necessary for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or midst of the church And if it be further sayd that the boke leaueth that to the discretion of the ordinarye and that he may reforme it if there be any thing amis then it is easely answered again that besides that it is against reason that the commoditye and edifying of the church should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduise and discretion it should be well or euell wyth the church Besides this I say we see by experience of the disorders whych are in many churches and dioceses in thys behalfe how that if it were lawfull to commit such authority vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill quitten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience wherof being so easely sene and so easely reformed there is notwythstanding so greate and so generall an abuse And the end of the order in the boke is to be obserued which is to kepe the praiers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell whych how maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole Liturgy or in the most part of it both that I may haue no nede to repete the same in the particulares and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so ofte as M. Doctor sayeth very vnskilfully and vnlike a deuine whence so euer thys or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the church of Christ Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whych is prescribed wherin the authors of the admonition declare that their meaning is not to disalow of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys forme that we haue For they expound themselues in the additions vnto the first part of the admonition It is not to any purpose that M. Doctor setteth himselfe to proue that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Iustine Martyrs testimony which notwithstanding hath not one word of prescript forme of prayers only he sayth there were prayers He sayth in dede the auncient fathers say that there hathe bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the churches although they do say so yet all men may vnderstand easely that M. doctor speaketh thys rather by coniecture or that he hath heard other mē say so for so much as that Doctor whych he hathe chosen out to speake for all the rest hath no such thing as he fathereth on him He sayeth that after they haue baptised they pray for them selues for hym that is baptised and for all men that they may be mete to learne the truth and to expres it in their honest conuersation and that they be found to kepe the commaundements that they may attaine to eternal life but is this to say the there was a prescript forme of prayer when he sheweth nothing els but the chefe poynts vpon the whych they conceiued their prayers If you had alleaged thys to proue what were the matters or principall poyntes that the primitiue church vsed to pray for you had alleaged thys to purpose but to alleage it for a profe of a prescript forme of prayer when there is not there mētioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer whych is the asking of our petitions in the name and through the intercession of our sauior Christ without the whych there is not nor cannot be any prayer argueth that either you litle know what the forme of prayer is or that you thought as you charge the authors of the admonition so often that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination But for as muche as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the church let that go thys that I haue sayd is to shew that when M. Doctor hapneth of a good cause whych is very seldome in this boke yet then he marreth it in the handling After he affirmeth that there can be nothing shewed in the whole boke whych is not agreeable vnto the word of God. I am very lothe to enter into this field albeit M. Doctor dothe thus prouoke me bothe because the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking when they vnderstand that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynte as for that some fewe professors of the gospell being priuate men boldened vpon such treatises take such wayes sometimes and breake forth into such speaches as are not meete nor conuenient Notwythstanding my duetie of defending the truthe and loue whych I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrey constraineth me being thus prouoked to speake a fewe woordes more particularly of the fourme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof doe appeare it may please the Queenes maiestie and her honourable Councell wyth those of the Parliamente whome the Lorde hathe vsed as singulare instrumentes to deliuer thys realme from the hotte furnaice and iron yoke of the popishe Egipte to procure also that the corruptions whych we haue broughte from them as those wysh whych we being so deepely dide and stained haue not so easely shaken
if kneeling be so void of all fault as M. Doctor wold make vs beleue howe came it to passe that in King Edwardes dayes there was a protestation added in the boke of prayer to cleare that gesture from adoration An other reason why kneeling should be taken away is for that sitting agreeth better wyth the action of the supper whervnto M. Doctor taketh exception bothe in thys place and where he speaketh againe of it that for so much as thys sacrament is a sacrament of thankes geuing and thankes geuing a prayer therfore kneeling to be most fit as that whych we vse ordinarily when we pray But he shuld haue remembred that that thanks geuing may wel come after we haue receyued the sacrament and that whilest we receyue the bread and wine of the sacramēt we are not then most fit to speake they being in our mouths and during the time we receyue them our minde is occupied in consydering the inestimable benefite whych the Lorde hathe bestowed vpon vs and to meditate of the frute whych we receiue thereby by the Analogie and comparison betwene the bodely nourishment and the spirituall that by these considerations our minds may be more enflamed and sette on fire and our mouthes may be filled wyth the praise of God after we haue receyued And further if thys be a good reason that therefore it is meete we shoulde kneele at the supper for as muche as we geue thanks then it foloweth that when so euer we haue supped or dined it is meete that we should kneele when as yet we do say grace sitting And by thys he accuseth our sauioure Christe and hys Apostles as those whych did not vse the whych was most fitte for in hys iudgement he sayeth kneeling is the fittest site or position of the body which can be and if our sauioure Christ had bene of that iudgement vndoubtedly he wold haue also kneeled and caused hys Apostles so to do In the. 181. page vnto the admonition saying that sitting is most fitte because it betokeneth rest and accomplishment of the ceremonies in our sauioure Christe M. doctor sayth it is a papisticall reason and triumpheth ouer the authors of the admonition because they allegory when as notwythstanding the surplice before crossing and rings c. afterwards are defended by nothing but wyth vain allegories whych haue nothing so good groūds as thys hath But let it be that thys is not so sound a reason as in deede for my part I wil not defend it and the authors them selues haue corrected it yet M. doctor might haue dealt easlier with all then to callit a papisticall reason which is far from popery and the reason of two notable learned zealous men Iohannes Alasco and of M. Hooper in hys commentary vpon the Prophet Ionas For the rest whych he hath heere or in the. 180. and. 181. page it is either answered before as that the danger of adoration may be taken away or hath no matter worthy the answearing I only admonish the reader that sitting at the communion is not holdē to be necessary but only that I thinke that kneling is very dāgerous for the causes before aledged Vnto the .iij. next sections contained in the .100 and .101 page I haue spoken already when as I shewed the generall faultes of the seruice boke only that is to be noted that M. doctor stil priuely pincheth or euer he be aware at our sauior Christes action in the first of these sections when as he commendeth rather thys forme of speaking take thou then that whych our sauior Christ vsed in saying take yee And if it be a good argument to proue that therfore we must rather say take thou then take yee because the sacrament is an application of the benefites of Christ then for as much as preaching is the applying of the benefites of Christ it behoueth that the preacher should direct hys admonitions particularly one after an other vnto all those whych heare hys sermon whych is a thyng absurde And therefore besides that it is good to leaue the popish forme in those thyngs whych we may so conueniently do it is best to come as neare y maner of celebration of the supper whych our sauyor Christ vsed as may be To the next section contained in the. 102. page When as many receiue they know not what some other wythout any examination eyther of them selues or by others how they come wyth what faith in Christ wyth what loue towardes their brethren I see not against what rule of our sauioure Christe it is or what rashe iudgement to say that they come rather of custome then of conscience when neyther they speake generally of all nor singularly of any one particulare person To the next section contained in the. 102. and a peece of the. 103. page IF the place of the. 5. to the Corinths do forbid that we should haue any familiarity wyth notorious offenders it doth much more forbid that they should be receyued to the communion And therfore papists being such as which are notoriously knowne to hold hereticall opinions ought not to be admitted much les compelled to the supper For seeing that our sauioure Christe did institute hys supper amongst hys disciples and those only whych were as S. Paule speaketh wythin it is euident that the papistes being wythout and foreiners and straungers from the church of God ought not to be receiued if they woulde offer them selues and that minister that shall geue the supper of the Lord to hym whych is knowne to be a papist and whych hath neuer made any cleare renouncing of popery with which he hath ben defiled doth prophane the table of the Lord doth geue the meat that is prepared for the children to dogges and he bryngeth into the pasture whych is prouided for the sheepe swine and vncleane beasts contrary to the faith and trust that ought to be in a stewarde of the Lordes house as he is For albeit that I doubt not but many of those whych are now papists pertaine to the election of God whych God also in hys good time will call to the knowledge of hys truthe yet notwythstanding they ought to be vnto the minister and vnto the church touching the ministring of the sacramentes as straungers and as vncleane beastes And as for the papists howsoeuer they receiue it whether as their popish breaden God as some doe or as common and ordinary bread as other some do or as a thing they know not what as some other they do nothing els but eat and drinke their owne condemnation the waight wherof they shall one day assuredly feele vnles they do repeat them of such horrible prophaning of the Lords most holy mysteries And if thys be to gratify the papists to shewe that they ought not to be compelled to receiue the supper of the Lorde as long as they continue in their popery I am well content to shewe them thys pleasure so that bothe they and you forget not
those lawes of discipline whiche hee hath prescribed And whereas M. Doctor woulde bring vs into a foolish paradise of oure selues as though we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce Scotland he should haue vnderstanded that as we haue bene vnto them in example haue prouoked them to follow vs so the Lord will haue vs also profite and be prouoked by their example and so be mutuall helpes one to an other and stirre vp our selues with the admonition that our sauiour Christ stirred vp hys apostles that oftentimes those that are first are not forwardest but are ouerrun of others that come after And whereas he would priuely pinch at the reformation there for so much as the Lord hath humbled the one and exerciseth the other by cyuill warres and troubles he should haue in steade of rocking vs a sleepe in our securitie put vs in remembraunce of Gods scourges which hang ouer vs and of Gods great pacience that still taryeth for our repentaunce and that if hee haue punyshed that people of hys which haue suffered so much for the profession of the Gospell and which went with so strayght a foote in it with an vniuersall hazarde of their goodes and lyues that wee shall not escape vnlesse wee repent spedely of our coldnes and halting in relygion and vnwillingnes I will not say to hazarde to put our lyues in daunger but not to leese some of our wealth and honor for the obtayning of a through reformation of the churche and aduauncement of the glory of the Lord. Finally he would rather haue put vs in remembrance of the sermon which our sauiour Christ maketh where he sheweth that those cyties are not alwares the greatest sinners or those whome God is most angry with which haue the heauiest iudgementes executed vpon them but that thereby the Lord calleth vs to repentance otherwyse that we shall lykewise pearish Thys had bene more fit forourestate to haue bene sayd then to haue after a sort insulted vpon the afflicted daubed vp our eyes that we should not see our mysery and our nakednes In all the rest M. Doctor hath nothing but wordes of reproch agaynst the authors of the Admonition and calling still as hys manner is for more punishment for them which I will not bestow the answere of The reply vnto the section in the. 146. 147. 148. pages Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti Deus bone quam te illud non decet Heere M. Doctor was disposed to make hym selfe and hys reader mery but it is with the bagpipe or countrey mirth not with the Harpe or Lute which the learned were wont to handle For he hath packed vp together the olde tale of the curst wyfe and of the theefe that toke away the priestes purse very familiar homely geare It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hop about the house but the learned the wyse can not daunce by thys instrument It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their lyuings without iust cause to heretickes curst wiues and to theeues but all men do vnderstand how rightly What hys troubles be within and in hys conscience the Lord God and hee knoweth best but as for the outwarde persecution which he suffereth it is not such as he neede thus to stoupe or to grone and to blow vnderneath it as though he had some great burthen vpon hys shoulders And if he complayne of the persecution of the tong to let passe hys immoderate heate of speach which he vseth with those that he hath to doe with all the tong which is more intemperate then hys is in all hys booke shall hardly be founde And although it be vnreasonable enough that he should not geue men leaue to complayne of their troubles when he gloryeth in troubling them yet that of all is most vntollerable that besides the iniury which he doth thē he is angry the they wil not lay hands of thē selues by casting thē selues out of their lyuings or euer they bee cast out by hym Tullie maketh mētiō of one C. Funbria which whē he had caused Q. Sceloua a singular in ā to be wounded saw that he dyed not of it conuēted hym before the iudges being asked what he had to accuse hym of answeared for that he dyd not suffer the whole weapon wherewith he was stricken to enter into hys body euen so M. Doctor contenteth not hym selfe only to doe iniuries vnto men but accuseth them also that they wil not do it vnto thē selues or that they would not willingly suffer hys weapons enter so farre as he would haue them What conscience is there that bindeth a man to depart from hys lyuing in that place where he lyketh not of all the orders which are there vsed is it not enough to abstayne from thē if there be any euill in them or to declare the vnlawfulnes of them if hys calling do suffer hym when as the reformation is not in hys power And if eyther of this abstayning or declaration of thys vnlawfulnes of them troubles be moued there is no more cause why they should geue place then the other which lyke of those disorders yea there is lesse cause for that they are not the causes of trouble but the other and for that by their departure out of theyr places roume is made for those whiche will lyke of those disorders which the other mislyked which is to the hurt of that company or congregation in such places And as for M. Doctors easynes to depart from hys lyuing rather then he would cause any trouble hee geueth men great cause to doubt of which hauing dyuers great lyuinges and amongst them a benefice is very loth to goe from troubling of others to doe hys duety at any of them It is true that the church of England may haue an order whereunto it may iustly require the subscription of the mynisters in Englande And so is it likewyse vntrue that we desire that euery one should haue hys own fansy and lyue as hym listeth for we also desire an vniforme order but such and in such sort as we haue before declared As for the olde accusation of Anabaptisme and confusion it is answeared before therefore according to my promise I will leaue your wordes and if you haue any matter I will speake to that Vnto the. 149. and. 150. pages THe Admonition hath no such thing as M. Doctor chargeth the authors thereof with that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice It sayeth they bare with it and vsed it so farre as they might and therefore now when it came to the approuing of it by subscription they refused there is no man which can not vnderstand that it is one thing to beare with a thing and an other to approue it and therefore to beare and to vse it so farre as might be may we ll agree with their refusall of subscription so that M. Doctors note is
iudgement of M. Bucer And wheras M. doctor vpon that s. Peter willeth the husbands to geue honor to their wiues wold approue this manner of speach in matrimony wyth my body I thee worshyp he must vnderstaÌ„d that it is one thing wyth vs to worship and an other thing to honor For we honor men whych we do not worshyp and besides that S. Peter speaketh of the honor of the mynde wherby the husband shuld be moued to beare wyth the infirmities of his wife therfore it is vnfitly alleaged to proue that he may worship her with his body As for the receiuing of the Communion when they be marryed that it is not to be suffered onles there be a generall receiuing I haue before at large declared and as for the reason that is fathered of M. Bucer whych is that those that be Christians maye not be ioyned in maryage but in Christe It is verye slender and cold as if the sacrament of the supper were instituted to declare any such thyng or they could not declare their ioyning togither in Christ by no meanes but by receyuing the supper of the Lorde To the next section in the. 197. page TEll me M. doctor why there should be any such confirmation in the church being brought in by the fained Decretall Epistles of the Popes and no one tittle therof being once found in the scrypture and seeing that it hath bene so horribly abused and not necessary why ought it not to be vtterly abolyshed and thirdly thys confirmation hath very dangerous poynts in it The first steppe of popery in thys confirmation is the laying on of hands vpon the head of the childe wherby the opinion of it that it is a sacrament is confirmed especially when as the prayer dothe saye that it is done according to the example of the Apostles whych is a manifest vntruthe and taken in deede from the popish confirmation The seconde is for that the byshop as he is called must be the only minister of it wherby the popishe opinion whych esteemeth it aboue baptisme is confirmed For whilest baptisme may be ministred of the minister and not coÌ„firmation but only of the byshop there is great cause of suspition geuen to thinke that baptisme is not so precious a thing as confirmation seeing thys was one of the principall reasons wherby that wicked opinion was establyshed in popery I do not heere speake of the inconuenience that meÌ„ are constrained with charges to bryng their childreÌ„ oftentimes halfe a score miles for that which if it were nedeful might be as wel done at home in their owne parishes The thirde is for y â— â—â— the allegation of the seconde cause of the vsing of the confirmation the boke sayeth that by the imposition of hands and prayer the chyldren may receyue strengthe and defence agaynst all temptations whereas there is no promyse that by the laying on of hands vpon chyldren any suche gyfte shall be geuen and it maintayneth the popyshe distinction that the spirite of God is geuen at baptisme vnto the remissyon of synnes and in confirmation vnto strength the whych very worde strength the booke alledgeth and all thys M. Doctor confuteth by callyng of the authors of the admonition peeuish and arrogant To the next section contained in the. 198. 199. 200. 201. pages LEast M. Doctor as hys common fashyon is when the corruption of anye thyng is spoken agaynst say that we condemne buryall I would haue hym vnderstand that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried and that it is mete that for that cause some reasonable numbre of those whych be the frends and neyghbors about should accompany the corps to the place of buryall We hold it also lawfull to lament the dead and if the dignity of the persone so require we thynke it not vnlawfull to vse some way about the buriall wherby that may appeare but yet so that there be a measure kepte bothe in the weepyng and in the charges consydering that whereas immoderate eyther weepyng or pompe was neuer no not in the tyme of the lawe allowed nowe in the time of the gospell all that is not lawfull whych was permitted in the time of the law For vnto the people of God vnder the law weeping was by so much more permitted vnto them then vnto vs by howe muche they had not so cleare a reuelation and plaine syght of the resurrection as we haue whych was y cause also why it was lawfull for them to vse more cost in the embaulmyng of the dead therby to nouryshe and to helpe their hope touchyng the resurrection wherof we haue a greater pledge by the resurrection of our sauyor Christ then they had Nowe for the thyngs whych the admonition findeth fault wyth and thereof bryngeth reason M. Doctor of hys bare credite wythout any reason or scrypture or any thyng els commendeth them vnto vs sayeth they be good And thys you shall marke to be M. doctors symple shyft throughoute hys booke that when he hath no coloure of scripture nor of reason no name nor title of doctor theÌ„ to make vp some thyng he varyeth hys affirmation by all the figures he can as in saying simplye that it is so and then in askyng whether it be not so and after in askyng whether there is any other man will thynke that it is not so as if the woulde make vs beleeue that he setteth vs dyuers kindes of meates because he bryngeth the same in dyuers dyshes For besydes these reasons he hathe no reason eyther to proue that it is meete to haue prescript forme of seruice for the dead or that the minister should be drawne to thys charge Surely if the order be so good and conuenient it hath met with a very barren patron whych can say nothing for it And although there be enough sayd by the admonition yet because thys bold and hardy speache is enough to lead the simpler away to make them thinke that M. doctor hathe a good cause therfore I wil also say somthyng of these rites of buryal And first of all as thys almost is a generall fault in them all that they maintayne in the mindes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead so is thys also a nother general fault that these ceremonyes are taken vp without any example either of the churches vnder the law or of the purest churches vnder the gospel that is of the churches in the apostles times For when the scripture descrybeth the ceremonies or rites of buryall amongste the people of God so dilygently that it maketh mention of the smallest thyngs there is no doubte but the holy Ghoste doth therby shew vs a paterne wherevnto we should also frame oure buryalles And therfore for so much as neyther the church vnder the law nor vnder the gospell when it was in the greatest puritye dyd euer vse any prescript forme of seruice in the buryall of theyr dead it coulde not be but daungerous
But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to run ouer hys bootes And last of all to proue that byshoppes may haue prisons hee citeth Peter which punyshed Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor must vnderstand that thys was Ecclesiasticall power and was done by vertue of that function which S. Paule calleth dynamin which is one of those functions that the Lord placed in hys church for a tyme But is thys a good argument because S. Peter punished with the word therefore the mynister may punyshe with the sworde And because S. Peter dyd so once therefore the byshop may doe so alway because S. Peter dyd that which appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate and which no ciuill magistrate by any meanes may or can doe therefore the mynister may doe that which appertayneth vnto the ciuill magistrate For if there had bene a ciuill magistrate the same could not haue punyshed thys fault of dissimulation which was not knowen nor declared it selfe by any outwarde action So that if thys example proue any thing it proueth that the mynister may doe that no man may doe but the Lord only which is to punysh faultes that are hyd and vnknowne If thys be ignoraunce it is very grosse if it be agaynst knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determyned with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor hys outcries and declamations and if I should haue vsed them as often as he geueth occasion there would be no end of wryting The Lord geue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Vnto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that pope Eugenius brought in prysons into the church as also vnto three or foure such like demaunds which hee maketh in thys booke the authors of the Admonition answeare at once that thys and the other are sounde in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Heere I will take in that whych the byshop of Salesbury hath in the last page of hys halfe sheete touching thys matter And first of all I wel agree that he sayth that to geue vnto sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an Ecclesiasticall person by reprehensyon or putting hym out of the ministerye if the case so require is meere ecclesiasticall and not ciuill and that those thyngs ought to be done of the offycers of the church Thys only I deny that the ministers ought to meddle wyth ciuill offyces For proofe whereof the B. alledgeth the example of Augustine whych as Possidonius wryteth was troubled wyth the hearing determinyng of causes Wherin Possidonius sayeth nothyng but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister wyth the elders ought bothe to heare and determine of causes but of suche causes as pertaine vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidonius ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustin as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that whych he wryteth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certen in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accompted of thys as of compulsyon and restraint from hys better busynesses whereby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not wyth those worldly affaires further then by waye of giuing counsell whych is not vnlawful for a minister to do as one friend vnto an other so that hys mynisterye be not thereby hindered And for the truthe of thys matter that ministers ought not to meddle wyth ciuill affaires I will appeale to no other then to the byshop hym selfe who dothe affirme plainly the same that the admonition heere affirmeth And therfore I conclude that for so much as bothe the holy scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill offyces and reason and the practise of the church doe confirme it that they ought to kepe thēselues within the limites of the ministerye and Ecclesiasticall functions least whilest they breake forthe into the calling of a magistrate in steade of shewing themselues episcopous that is ouerseers they be found to declare themselues * allotriopiscopous that is busy bodyes medling in thyngs whych belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whych they knowe well enoughe that they ought cosman sparten hen elachon that is to say studye to adorne that charge whych they take in hande and doe professe I leaue to speake any further of thys matter Vnto the two next sections I haue spoken in that whych hathe bene sayde touchyng excommunication canons and prebendaries c. and vnto that whych is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsons and vicars be a great plague vnto this church and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Lykewise vnto the two next sectiōs I haue answeared before in speaking against the spirituall courts whych are now vsed and vnto the next after that in speaking of the ordayning of ministers And vnto that whych is contained in the later ende of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the church shall iudge of the aptnes or vnaptnes of our reasons and albeit we do finde fault with diuers thyngs in the booke yet we neyther oppugne as enemyes nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puretanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs And to the prayer agaynst disturbers of the churche I say wyth all my heart Amen Vnto the next section I haue answeared in the treatise of the apparell And vnto the next after in the treatise whych declareth to whome it doth appertaine to make ceremonyes and orders of the church And vnto the section contained in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of Oynions answeareth of garlike For the authors of the admonition desyring that it myght be as lawful for them to publishe by Printe their mindes or to be heard dispute or that theyr minde put in wryting myghte be openly debated maister D. answeareth wyth Augustines sentence whych he hath made the foote of hys song nothing to the purpose of that whych they said the performance of which promise we wil notwythstanding wayte for Vnto the section contayned in the. 245. and. 246. pages HEre maister Doctor contrary to the protestation of the authors of the Admonition whych declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe sayth that therfore they will not subscribe because they are required by lawfull authoritye Whych howe bothe presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whych hath bene declared And where maister Doctor wold vpon the marginall note proue that we haue good discipline because we haue good doctrine and thervpon doth wonderfully tryumphe he playeth as he of whome it is sayde meden labon cratei carteros that is hauyng gotten nothyng holdeth it fast For can M. doctor be so ignorant that thys manner of speach doctrine and discipline
a light foote the Heades and Summes of things then to number the faultes which are almost as many as there are sentences in thys booke more I am sure then there are pages ACcording to my promise made in my boke I haue here set down the iudgement of the later wryters concerning these matters in controuersy betwene vs Wherein because I loue not to translate out of other mens workes whereby I might make myne to grow I haue kept thys moderation that I neither sette down all the wryters nor all their places that I could nor yet of euery singuler matter but the chefest wryters and other of the cheefest poyntes or else of those wherein they are alleadged agaynst vs by M. Doctor and one only place of eche as farre as I could iudge and choose out most direct to that wherefore I haue alleaged it For otherwyse if I would haue spoken of all the poyntes and of the iudgement of all the wryters and gathered all the places that I could they woulde haue bene sufficient matter of an other booke as bigge or rather bigger then thys I must also admonish the Reader that I haue for borne in certeine of these Titles to set downe the iudgements of M. Beza M. Bullinger and M. Gualter because they are comprehended in the Confessyon of the Churches And thus partly vpon those sentences which I haue alleaged in thys booke and partely vpon these Testimonies heere set downe I leaue to the consyderation of all men how truely and iustly it is sayde that the learned wryters of these tymes one or two onely excepted are agaynst vs. 1 That there ought now to be the same regiment of the Church which was in the Apostles tyme. THe confession of the Heluetian Tygurin Berne Geneua Polonia Hungary and Scotland with others in the. 18. chapter speaking of the equality of the ministers sayth that no man may iustly forbyd to returne to the old constitution of the church of God and to receiue it before the custome of man. M. Caluin in hys Institututions 4. booke 3. chapter and 8. section speaking of the auncientes which dyd assist the pastor in euery church sayth that experiēce teacheth that that order was not for one age that thys office of gouernment is necessary to all ages And in the. 12. chapter and first section of the same booke sayth as much of Excommunication and other Ecclesiasticall censures Peter Martyr vpon the third to the Rom. teacheth that although the common wealth chaunge her gouernment yet the church alwayes kepeth hers still Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ 15. chapter lamenteth that there were founde amongst those which are counted of the forwardest christians which woulde not haue the same disciplyne vsed now that was in the times of the Apostles obiecting the differences of tymes and of men 2. That one mynister ought not to haue any dominion ouer an other The foresayde Heluetian Confession c. in the seuententh Chapter sayeth that Christ dyd most seuerely prohibite vnto hys Apostles their successors primacy domynion in the 18. Chap. sayth that equall power function in geuen vnto all the mynisters of the church that from the beginning no one preferred him selfe to a nother sauing only the for order some one dyd call thē together propounde the matters that were to be consulted of gathered the voyces c. Musculus in hys Common places in the chap. of the offices of the mynisters of the word sayth that in the Apostolike church the ministers of the word were none aboue an other nor subiect to any heade or president mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree then an other And further he sayth vppon the second chap. of the second Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a byshop being taken from the rest of the mynisters and geuen to one was the first step to the papacie how so euer in other places he speaketh otherwyse 3. That the election of mynisters pertayneth not to one man. The foresayd Heluetian Confession c. in the. 18. Chapter sayth that the mynisters ought to be chosen of the church or by those which are lawfully deputed of the church and afterward ordayned with publike prayers M. Caluin in hys 4. booke of Institutions 3. chap. 15. section sheweth that the Church dyd chuse and that the Apostles dyd monderate the election and confuteth them which vpon the places of Titus and Timothe would proue that the election belongeth to one man. 4. That there ought now to be elders to gouerne the church with the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluin hath bene before declared in the first of these propositions M. Beza in hys booke of diuorces page 161. sayeth that the Eldershyp of the church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Touching Deacons M. Caluin 4. boke 3. chap. 9. section after that hee had described what deacons the churches had in the Apostles tymes sayeth that we after their example ought to haue the lyke M. Beza in the. 5. cap. and. 23. section of hys confessions sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the church is an ordinary function in a church lawfully constituted which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship P. Martyr vpon the. 12. to the Rom. speaking of the Elders which did asist the pastor in euery Church of the Deacons lamenteth that thys order is so fallen out of the church that the names of these functions do skarce remayne M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ for the auncientes of the Church sayeth that the number of the Elders of euery church ought to be encreased according to the multitude of the people and in the. 14. chap. of the same booke sayeth that thys order of Deaconshyppe was relygiously kept in the church vntill it was driuen out by Antichrist 5. That excommunication pertayneth not to any one man in the Church M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. booke and. 11. chap. and. 6. section teacheth that Excommunication pertayneth not to one man that it was too wicked a fact that one man taking the authoritie which was common to other to himselfe alone opened a way to tyranny tooke from the Church her right and abrogated the church Senate ordayned by the spirite of Christ And in the. 12. chap. and. 7. section hee sayeth further that it ought not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Church M. Beza in hys confessions 5. chap. 43. section sayeth that thys power of excommunicating is geuen to no one man except it please God to worke extraordinarily Peter Martyr vpon the. 1. to the Corinthes and. 5. chap. sayeth that it is very daungerous to permit so waighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and will of any one man And therfore both that tyranny might be auoyded and thys censure executed with greater frute
Thys is certaine that breuitie whych you pretend was in small commendation with you whych make so often repetitions stuffe in diuers sentences of Doctors and wryters to proue things that no man denyeth translate whole leaues to so small purpose vpon so light occasions make so often digressions sometimes against the vnlernednes sometimes against the malice sometimes against the intemperancie of speach of the authors of the admonition and euery hand while pulling out the sworde vpon them and throughout the whole boke sporting your selfe wyth the quotations in the margent so that if all these where taken out of your boke as winde out of a bladder we should haue had it in a narow roume whych is thus swelled into such a volume and in stead of a boke of .ij. s. we should haue had a pamfiet of two pence And whereas you say that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the libell but for the wise discrete humble and learned to them also I leaue it to consider vpon that whych is alledged by me First howe lyke a diuine it is to seeke for rules in the Doctors to measure the making of ceremonies by whych you mighte haue had in the scriptures there at the riuers heere at the fountaine vncerten there whych heere are certen there in parte false which are heere altogither true then to howe little purpose they serue you and last of all howe they make against you An answer to the ende of the. 29. page beginning at the. 25. at But I trust M. Caluins iudgement VVHy should you trust that M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh wyth them if they be Anabaptists as you accuse them if they be Donatists if Catharists if conspired wyth the Papistes howe can you thinke that they will so easely rest in M. Caluins iudgement whych hated and confuted all Anabaptisme Donatisme Catharisme and Papisme But it is true whych the prouerbe sayth memorem c. he that will speake an vntruthe had neede haue a good memorye and thys is the force of the truthe in the conscience of man that although he suppres it and pretend the contrary yet at vnwares it stealeth out For what greater testimonye coulde you haue geuen of them that they hate all those heresies which you lay to their charge then to say that you trust M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh wyth them Now in dede that you be not deceiued we receiue M. Caluin and weigh of him as of the notablest instrumēt that the Lord hath stirred vp for the purging of his churches and of the restoring of the plaine and sincere interpretation of the scriptures whych hath bene since the Apostles times And yet we do not so read his works that we beleeue any thyng to be true because he sayeth it but so farre as we can esteme that that whych he sayth dothe agree wyth the canonicall scriptures But what gather you out of M. Caluin First that all necessary thyngs to saluation are contained in the scripture who denyeth it In the second collection where you would geue to vnderstande that ceremonies and externall discipline are not prescribed particularly by the worde of God and therfore left to the order of the church you must vnderstande that all externall discipline is not left to the order of the churche being particularly prescribed in the scriptures no more then all ceremonies are left to the order of the church as the sacraments of baptisme and the supper of the Lord wheras vpon the indefinite speaking of M. Caluin saying ceremonies and externall discipline wythout adding all or some you goe about subtelly to make men beleeue that M. Caluin had placed the whole external discipline in the power and arbitrement of the churche For if all externall discipline were arbitrarie and in the choise of the church Excommunication also whych is a part of it might be cast away which I thinke you will not say But if that M. Caluin were aliue to heare hys sentences racked and wrythen to establishe those thyngs whych he stroue so mightely to ouerthrow and to ouerthrow those things that he laboured so sore to establishe what might he say and the iniurie which is done to him is nothing les because he is deade Concerning all the rest of your collections I haue not lightly knowne a man which taketh so much paine with so small gaine and which soweth his sede in the sea wherof there wil neuer rise encrease For I know none that euer denied those things vnles peraduenture you would make the reader beleeue that al those be contentions which moue any controuersy of things which they iudge to be amis and thē it is answered before And now I answer further that they that moue to reformation of things are no more to be blamed as authors of contention then the Phisition which geueth a purgation is to be blamed for the rumbling and stirre in the belly and other disquietnes of the body which should not haue bene if the euil humors and naughty disposition of it had not caused or procured thys purgation Wheras you conclude that these contentions woulde be sone ended if M. Caluins wordes were noted heere we will ioyne with you and will not refuse the iudgement of M. Caluin in any matter that we haue in controuersy with you Which I speake not therfore because I would call the decision of controuersies to men and their words which pertaine only to God and to his worde but because I know hys iudgement in these things to be cleane against you and especially for that you would beare men in hand that M. Caluin is on your side and against vs And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late wryters by citing of whom you wold geue to vnderstand that they are against vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter end of this boke their seuerall iudgements of the most of these things whych are in controuersy whereby it may appeare that if they haue spoken one word against vs they haue spoken two for vs And wheras they haue wrytten as it is sayde and alleaged in their priuate letters to their freendes againste some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their workes published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So y if they wrote any such thyngs they shall be founde not so much to haue dissented from vs as from them selues and therefore we appeale from them selues vnto them selues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike wrytings as more autenticall You labor still in the fire that is vnprofitably to bring M. Bucer hys Epistle to proue that the church may order things wherof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neither is thys saying that all things are to be done in the churche according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto