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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20964	The waters of Siloe To quench the fire of purgatory and to drowne the traditions, limboes, mans satisfactions and all popish indulgences, against the reasons and allegations of a Portugall frier of the order of St. Frances, supported by three treatises. The one written by the same Franciscan and entituled The fierie torrent, &c. The other two by two doctors of Sorbon. The one intituled The burning furnasse. The other The fire of Helie. By Peter Du Moulin minister of Gods word. Faithfully translated out of French by I.B.; Accroissement des eaux de Siloé. English	Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658.; Barnes, John, fl. 1600-1621, attributed name.; I. B., fl. 1612.	1612 (1612)	STC 7343; ESTC S111086	158,344	552

at libertie because some friend of his hath scourged himselfe or fasted for him 3. Whether the pardons that the Pope giueth without enioining any penance be of any force as also those which he giueth with conditiō to work some wickednesse as in the yeares 1587 and 1588. when hee gaue seven yeares of pardon to every one that would ioine with the holy Vnion that is to say that would rebell against their king yet he a Roman Catholike 4. Againe In as much as these superabundant satisfactions of Saints are gathered together into the Popes treasurie because God will haue nothing lost how haue the superabundant satisfactions of such holy men as died vnder the old Testamēt as Moses Abraham c. beene husbanded be those also in the Popes treasury But where were they laid vp before the Pope had them Did they lie lurking in some corner two or three thousand yeares vntill the Pope gathered them together and found meanes to employ thē It were not amisse also to enquire the reason why the world in the yeare of Iubile maketh such hast to Rome cōsidering that at Rome they may at all times obtaine millions of yeares of Indulgences and full remission of sinnes and some six hundred thousand yeares of plenary pardon Aboue all we would gladly know when a man that needeth ten thousand yeares of pardon doth purchase enough for fiftie thousand yeares what becommeth of the fortie thousand yeares that remaineth Cayer saith that they returne into the treasurie for the good of others but because his companions doe despise disgrace him wee would willingly bee taught by some substantiall Doctor the rather for that at Rome and in one selfe place a man may obtaine besides the plenary pardon certaine thousands of yeares of surplussage To what end may that surplussage serue wil the Pope therewith pardon sins giue Indulgences by provision CAP. 6. That all the passages of holy Scripture by our adversaries quoted for prayer for the dead and for Purgatory are either false or vnprofitable IN all the Premises wee may see that our enimies fight but faintly that they are armed but with strawes against the force of the truth how much lesse shall they be able to do any thing when they shall be quite stripped and that little armour that is left them be cleane taken away This is it which in this Chapter wee will with Gods helpe performe My adversaries therfore whose desire of gaine induceth them to practise Pyrotechny doe heape together stubble good store that is to say simple proofs to kindle this fire of Purgatory Of these proofes some concerne prayer for the dead and some Purgatory some taken out of the old some out of the new Testament we will then without dissimulation propound them all and for my part I will deale with thē with as much equitie and sinceritie as they haue dealt with me with fraud vniustice which consisteth in suppressing my best obiections and corrupting the rest Passages produced by these three Doctors to proue prayer for the dead All that my adversaries doe alleage concerning prayer for the dead is groūded vpon a false principle namely that who so prayeth for a dead body presupposeth that there is a Purgatory but in the last Chapter wee will shew that the prayers for the dead which some of the ancients did vse were even against Purgatorie Here might we dispense for answering hereto the rather for that albeit they should obtaine their desires yet had they gained nothing toward the establishment of their Purgatory Howbeit we will doe them thus much more then right that nowe receaving their principle we wil lay open the falshood and impertinencie of their proofes therevpon 1. Cayers passages p. 24. A falshood Cayer shall haue the credit to march foremost as the most skilfull His words are these It is said Numbers 16. v. 47. 48. that Aaron reconciled the people both the quick and the dead A passage false and by him invented for as well in the Hebrew as in the translations even in the Roman it is thus Aaron standing vpright betweene the dead and the living besought God for the people and the plague ceased 2. In the third book of Kings cap. 8. v. 38. There is a manner of prayer for the dead saith Cayer in these words Every prayer and supplication made by any man for the wound of his heart in the Church it shall be acceptable to God Also in the 33. verse it is said If the people fall before their enimies in praying to God they shal be heard Were not this passage falsified yet shew me one word in it that importeth praying for the dead 3. Againe he saith that in the 57. of Esay the Prophet complaineth that they did not pray for the dead This also is false neither is there any such speech throughout all the Chapter Looke also what wee haue already said in the third Chapter and third Argument 4. He goeth on and saith that in the third Chapter of Baruch it is set downe in expresse words Heare o Lord God the prayer of the dead Israelits and of their children that haue sinned before thee And soone after Remember not the iniquitie of our Fathers First the booke is Apocriphall secondly In these wordes of Israell are comprised all the people of Israell who in those daies through the extremitie of their captivitie misery were as if they lived not as it appeareth in the eleventh verse where it is said Israell is counted with them that go downe to the graue Tearming those dead after the ordinary phrase of the Scripture that are oppressed with affliction and as it were within two inches of death As David in the 88. Psalme albeit aliue counteth himselfe among the dead and those that goe downe to the pit so also in the 18. Psalme v. 5. 6. and in the 116. Psalme v. 3. hee saith that he is environed and surprised with the snares of death and with the bonds of the sepulcher Also in the 18. Psalme v. 19. the faithfull doe desire of God that he would restore them to life as if they had beene dead and already brought to the graue Thirdly to what purpose doth hee come in with a prayer of the dead considering that our question cōcerneth only the prayer of the living for the dead Fourthly as concerning these words Remember not the iniquitie of our fathers hee prayeth that the threats of the lawe which denounce that God will visit the iniquitie of the Fathers vpon the children be not executed vpon them hee therefore prayeth that the sinnes of the fathers be no cause to prolong their captivitie as plainely appeareth in the eight verse Cayer produceth yet another passage out of the second of the Machabes but that you shal find among the passages of the other two 5. The Frier having discharged all his anger vpon M. Calvin and charged that good man with infinit slanders wresting the Interpretion of sundry his

wheeles of this great frame of the Roman hierarchie For as a beast deadly wounded springeth forth with an extraordinarie force even so these Doctors doe excessiuely storme when you touch them in their best feeling that is in the belly in Avarice and in Idlenesse Of all the rest this Portugal Monk is the most ridiculously violent hee speaketh with a barbarous impetuositie with such a pride as hardly agreeth with his habit yet did I forbeare his honour and abstaine from all iniuries and bravadoes albeit I had a large field open before me and many proofes of his ignorance But I seeke not to dishonor any man only the glory of God do I aime at To these books thus stuffed with civilitie haue these reverend Doctors imposed Capriccious titles after the manner of those that hang out scurrilous tables over the forefronts of the houses where they act their enterludes or as such as carue Cyclops and Satyres vpon the frontispice of their buildings CAYER Marke then the title of Cayers booke The burning fornace or oven of reverberate c. And in his booke his speech runneth all vpon Limbecks firing evaporating recalcining c. All words of his art and of all this he maketh an Amalgame cōtaining more moon then sunne The other treadeth the same path and entituleth his booke The fire of Helie to drie vp the waters of Siloe VAL. Luke 9. You wot not by what spirit you be led The FRIER The Frier was loath to bee behind his fellowes or to vse a lesse ridiculous title then his writing is so to procure an vniformity wherein he proceeded with great discreation and this is his title The Torrent of fire proceeding from the face of God to drie vp the waters of Mara enclosed in the causey of the Mill of Ablon O frock garnished with elegācie Who was able on this side the Pirinean mountaines to attaine to such gallant conceptions and so well polished This Frier minor entendeth to haue all his pollutions and vncleannes that he spueth out throughout his whole booke to come forth from the face of God that is to say to bee expelled out of Gods presence Which neverthelesse hee armeth with autoritie entituling himselfe The Reverend Father Iames Observantin Doctor Preacher c. And in his preface braggeth that he writeth succinctly and strongly yet had it beene good hee had expected other mens commendations but he had more desire to ease them of that labour At the first blush therefore seeing so fierie bookes such hot furnaces Torrents of fire I feared to come neere thē but plucking vp my spirits and being a little way entred into the reading of the same I grew into farre greater admiration considering that these three friers were as farre discordant among themselues as fire and water and that these Doctors did most fiercely bang each other and yet were all signed and approved by the Doctors of Sorbone Yea so hot was this contention among them that one of them namely Cayer after hee had beene well displaid and hardly entreated was finally disclaimed in all their Pulpits blasted with perpetuall infamie All which they could never haue compassed but they must likewise taxe those Doctors that subscribed and allowed his booke Well did I knowe that the opinions of the Romish doctors doe agree but badly Herein is the Councel of Basil contrary to the Coūcel of Florence One saith that the pope cannot teach false doctrine another that hee can One that the Pope is aboue the Councell another that the Councell is aboue the Pope Misteria Mislae lib. 3. cap 9. Causa 15. Cā Alius Can. Nos sanctorū quaest 7 Extravag vnā sanctam de Maiorib Oleo One that Invocation of Saints is necessarie as Pope Innocent the 3. and Cayer in his conference advowed subscribed by the Doctors of Sorbone The others as the Lord of Eureux that it may wel enough be forborne and it is no matter of necessitie The Iesuits and such as in their hearts are more soundly nailed to the Papall sea doe advow that the Pope may giue and take away kingdomes that hee can absolue subiects from their oaths and fidelitie allegance to their Princes and this power haue the Popes of late assumed to themselues doe now put in practise Others that hold their iudgements somewhat more at liberty doe affirme all this to be meere vsurpation The most strictest orders of Friers and such soules as they haue brought into captivitie doe beleeue that the Church of Rome cannot erre in any point of doctrine and doe defend even the most grosse absurdities other more smooth tongued but withall more white livered doe say that there bee indeed grosse absurdities That they beleeue not any Purgatorie That the Iubile is but a kind of Marchandize That the fraternitie of the Corde is but superstition That the hallowed graines are but prophane trumperies That we might very well forbeare the portraying of God the taking of the cup in the Supper from the lay people the baptizing of bells the singing of Masses for horses corne hogges c. Yet for all this that wee must not separate our selues and the reason that vnder hand they giue out is this It is good for vs. All this passeth smoothly away so long as we speake not hardly of his holinesse and that the Church Profits be not deminished To be briefe these people are like twinnes whose heads being devided the bellies are neverthelesse knit together Surely this is the course whereby the vnitie of the Romish Church is vpholden Nether were wee vtterly ignorant of this discord yet should I never haue imagined that they would haue published their contradictions or produced these Doctors to the stage there to haue given them so rude a bastinado But drinke yee together Doctors agree among your selues for surely the same God that confounded the languages of the builders of Babylon doth still suffer divisiō to molest those that build it againe Now that which we speak of concerneth not Cayer alone for the Frier likewise gainesayeth his two cōpanions albeit he hath both seene their bookes out of them borrowed some part of his writings So as that which in the sixteenth of Genesis was spoken of Ismael His hand shall be against every mā and every mans hand against him doth very well agree with every of them whereof in this Treatise I will shewe you sundry examples These contradictions are somwhat hard of disgestiō but much more their slanders wherein they impose vpon vs most horrible and wicked opiniōs infinitely estranged from our beliefe As thus that we beleeue fiue mansions for the soules that our drift is to deny the Immortalitie of the soule that wee make al sinnes alike equal that we hold that the soules doe sleep from the day of their decease to the day of iudgmēt that wee would haue I wot not what Synode that never was to passe for an article of faith

his word cleere the peoples minds from all doubts or difficulties withal cut of the pathes that lead to this trafficke How vniustly the Frier and his fellowes doe make vse of the example of the primitiue Church in matter of Indulgences In the times of persecutions the primitiue Church sought all meanes possible to honour martyrdome and to encourage the Christians thereto Amōg other meanes they had taken vp a custome that such as for any notorious offence were cut of from the Church for some long time did resort to the prisons wherein such as suffered for the gospel were detained there besought these Martyres to make intercession to the Church that the time of their pennance and excommunication might be abridged and thus did the Bishops vse at the intercessions of these prisoners appointed to martyrdome to readmit the penitent into the Congregation S. Cyprian in his sermon of the fallen also in the second Epistle of his fourth booke and Tertullian in his booke De pudicitia doe disallow this custome thinke thay they yeeld too much to these imprisoned Martyrs Yea Tertullian speaketh thereof in his book of the Martyrs cap. 1. Our adversaries like the Israelites that gathered straw vnder the bondage of Pharao for want of more substantiall proofes doe make vse of this custome in their establishing of the Popes Indulgences and in the distribution of the overplus workes and superabundant satisfactions of the Saints collected into the Popes treasurie and converted into paimentes for others Tertullian calleth thē appointed Martyrs wherein I suppose they haue no intent that men should beleeue them so farre from all apparance doe they speake 1. These Martyrs that S. Cyprian spak of were yet aliue those that our adversaries spake of are dead 2. Wee cannot finde that ever the paine of any sinner was abridged by the merits and superabundant sufferings of these Martyres who would never haue vndergon those torments had they not beleeved that God called them thereto and consequently that they were bound to endure them so it followeth that they neither did nor suffered any thing supererogatory for they could not doe otherwise vnlesse they would haue denied the Gospell 3. These imprisoned Martyrs commended to the Church this or that penitent and besought that they might be receaued into the Communion but they neither paid for them nor redeemed them as our adversaries doe say that the Saints by their sufferings are in some sort our redeemers 4. These Martyrs entreated only that the sinner might bee admitted to the Communion not that he might be exempt from Purgatory 5. In those daies there was no speech of this worthie treasure of the Church composed of the superabundant satisfactions of Iesus Christ and his Saints 6. Every Bishop imposed or abridged the pains or excommunications in his owne flocke without expecting either advice or buls from the Bishop of Rome 7. In those daies men knew not the meaning of pardons hanged vpon certain Churches by his holinesse autoritie O what a goodly sight it would haue beene in those daies to haue seene such buls set vp and fixed vpon the Church dores or some one that might haue instructed the people in this new Gospell namely that his Papall holinesse having in his treasury all the superabundant satisfactions of Iesus Christ his Saints doth giue ten thousande or fiftie thousande yeares of plenary pardon and as many quarentines with the third of all their sinnes or even full Indulgence to every one that shall say a stinted number of Paters or Avees or his rosary or beads or weare or kisse some halowed grains or contribute some peece of mony or that shall ioine himselfe to the fraternitie of the Corde likewise that such a stinted number of Masses said vpon a certaine priviledged altar shal fetch out of Purgatory any one soule even such a one as he shall chuse that must pay for it also that such venerable pardons are to be purchased in such a Church vpon such a day even vntill sun set besides that he that shall buy these pardōs may chuse him a ghostly father such a one as in the houre of death shall absolue him from all his sinnes both frō the paine and from the fault Surely I say if any man in the primitiue Church should shaue preached so prodigious a doctrine even the little children would haue hissed after him or the Phisitians would haue felt his pulse so to haue learned the cause of his frensey and to purge his hypochondriall humour for as yet it was not the custome to burne any man for heresie Now in our enterview the Frier alleaged vnto me this intercession of the Martyrs for the penitent to defend papall Indulgences I answered that that intercession had no resemblance with the Popes Indulgences besides that that custome did Tertullian condemne Then did he take me vp in a most impudent manner saying that I was deceaued also that I tooke Tertullian for S. Cyprian but I told him that both the one and the other condemned this custome howbeit wee wanted bookes to satisfie the assistants vpon this point This did not the Frier forget in his booke and therefore marke his words pag. 12. The Minister should remember what a Novice be shewd himselfe in the reading of the fathers how hee mistooke himselfe in citing them quoting Tertullian for S. Cyprian But let him nowe learne that which he yet knewe not so confesse himselfe to be the Novice Tertullian in his book de Pudicitia cap. 22 complaineth of this custome at large even so farre forth as to say That diverse procured their own imprisonment that so they might be Intercessors for some of their friends or that they might commit folly with women detained in the same prison Violantur viri feminae in tenebris plane ex vsu libidinum notis Et pacem ab his quaerunt paenitentes qui de sua periclitantur In the end hee concludeth thus Sufficiat Martyri propria delicta purgasse Ingrati vel superbi est in alios quoque spargere quod pro magno fuerit consequutus Quis alienam mortem sua soluit nisi solus Dei filius c. that is to say Let it suffise the Martyr that hee hath purged his owne sinnes It is the part of an vnthankfull and proud person to seeke to impart to others that which hath beene granted to himselfe for a great grace What man did ever by his owne death satisfie for anothers death but the only sonne of God In al this appeareth both the Monks ignorance in commō matters as also his assurāce in speaking that which he knoweth not besides his childish waunting of prevailing in so slight a cause For had I named Tertullian for Cyprian can the weakenesse of my braine amend his cause but it is memory that fayleth him or rather knowledge but especially conscience Note in the meane time how well these Indulgences are vnderpropped with antiquitie for my adversaries in