shal be content to punysshe our selfe And that fastyng is one of the good workes that bysyde other good great godly purpose serueth for satisfaccyoÌ„ of synne procuryng of remyssyon grace and pardone that it serueth not onely for the tamynge of the flesshe as Tyndale here wolde haue it seme ye shall se to manyfestly proued by many playne placys in euery parte of scrypture Fyrst the fastes that Moyses fasted fyrst for the law and after for the synne of the peple and the synne of Aaron also were thefe fastes for nothynge but for to tame his flesshe Item in .xxi. chapiter of the thryde boke of kynges wheÌ„ Achab had herd these wordes he tare his garmeÌ„tis and put on his bodye a shyrte of here he fasted and slept in a sacke and went hangynge his hede lowe done and our lorde sayd to Helyas Thesbites hast thow not sene how Achab hathe humbled hym before me And therfore bycause he hath humbled hym selfe for my sake I wyll brynge no euyll in dutynge his lyfe Doth yt not manyfestly appere by these wordes that kyng Achab fasted not for tamyng of his flessh tâ— kepe yt from wyldnes but he fasted for the selfe same cause for whych he ware here and slepte in a sacke that is to wyt to humble him selfe afore the face of god and to do penauÌ„ce in punyshynge hym selfe for his synne to moue thereby almyghty god to mercy to the wythdrawyng of his hyghe punyshement whyche ellys he fered wolde fall vppon hys hede whych punishement god at the respecte of the kynges humble penaunce and payne of fastynge and other afliccyoÌ„ wyllyngly taken by hym selfe dyd mercyfully wythdrawe from hym so that in all his dayes he suffred hym to fele no parte thereof And so may ye se this place of scripture euydent playne agaynste Tyndale and that very repentaunce requyreth of the repentaunte person not onely tamynge of the flesshe agaynste the synne immynent or to come but also punyshement by fastynge and other afflyccyon for the synne all redy done And now Cryste hath to cristen men promysed of our synnes forgyuenes and of our payne releace by vertue of hys payne but this meaneth he to them that set not theyr owne synnes at so lyght after his great kyndnes shewed but that theyr own selfe shewe by theyr owne wylfâ—ll punyshement worthy to suffre payne also them selfe therfore and then his payne hath gyuen theyr payne the lyfe that maketh yt quycke and auaylable not entâ—ndynge yet that hym selfe so sholde take payne that the synners them selfe sholde synne at theyr pleasure and be saued all wyth ease as Tyndale Luther wolde make vs wene For that were the way to make men wanton and wax very bolde in synne Forthermore in the fyrste boke of Esdras and the .viii. chapyter yt is wryten thus in the person of the people we haue fasted and prayed to god for this that is to wyt for helpe agaynst our enymyes yt is comen prosperousely to passe ye may here clerely se this pestylent opinyon of Tyndale wyth few wordes confuted For this faste was not for tamynge of the flesshe but for auoydynge of theyr paâ—ell Agayne in the seconde boke of Esdras and the fyrste chapiter thus sayd Nehemias wheÌ„ I had herd such tydynges that is to wyt how the walles of Hierusalem were throwen done the yates burnt and the chyldern of Israel in great affliccyon and mysery I sat downe and wepte and mornyd many dayes I fasted also and prayed afore the face of the god of heuen Lo this faste was not for to tame the flesshe for the man was in heuynes far from such wanton thynges but he fasted as he wept and mornyd to moue god to mercy Also the great preste of god Eliachym sayth in the .iiii. of Iudith Knowe ye that our lorde shall heare your prayers yf ye contynue in fastynge and prayng in the syght of hym I suppose no man is of so symple wyt vnderstandyng but he may at the bare rehersall of this brief texte well perceyue that Eliachim dyd not esteme fastyng as Tyndale doth nother toke yt not onely for a tamynge of the flesshe but for a meane also to purchace grace wyth remyssyon pardon and also to obteyne ayde and helpe of god in that great necessyte Is not the .iiii. of Hester also clene contrarye to the doctryne of these deuelyshe prechers of fleshly liberty Go and assemble sayth that good quene all the Iewes that thow fyndest in Susan and praye ye for me Eate ye not nether drynke not in .iii. dayes and .iii. nyghtes And I lykewyse wyll fast wyth my maydens wolde she that they sholde forbere mete and drynk to the intent that by theyr fastynge they myght tame her flesshe nay nor for the tamynge of theyr own neyther But that by theyr deuoute fastynge and her maydens and her own they myght prouoke our lorde to pytyâ— them and preserue them from that immynent parell that they were then all in what sayth Toby Prayer sayth he ioyned with fastyng is good He sayth not this onely for yâ—ng lusty folke for tamyng of theyr flesshe in auoydyng of inteÌ„perauÌ„ce for good crysten fastynge goeth sometyme farre aboue the naturall temperaunce but he teacheth all men that may wythoute harme to ioyne wyth prayer that payne of fastyng as a thyng pleasaunt vnto god in such wyse as the prayer is and yt is a secrete inwarde effectuall prayer when the payne of all the bodye repentynge and punyshynge the synne cryeth to god for mercy wyth voyce of the mouth In the .xxxiiii. chapytâ—r of Ecclesiasticus yt is wrytten The man that fasteth for his synnes and agayn commyteth the selfe same synnes what auayleth hym this humilytye wherby yt is well vnderstanden that he whych fasteth amendeth hym selfe his faste auayâ—eth and is profâ—table And wherfore not onely for tamyng of his flesshe for that may be tame inough and yet the man bad inough but yt auayleth for remyssyon of synne and for meryte in heuen For as holy saynte Austayne saythe To saye that the faste of a crysten man shall haue no rewarde in heuen is not the opynyon of a true crysten man but of an heretyque The prophete Iohel in the secoÌ„de chapyter And therefore now sayth the lorde turne to me wyth all your herte in fastynge wepynge and weylynge Tere your hertes not your garmentes and so forth Lo here the prophete exhorteth to fastynge as he doth to harty mornynge and wepyng not for a couÌ„tenaunce of sorow but to be sorofull to take payne in dede not in theyr clothes where they fele yt not but in theyr bodyes and inwardely in theyr hertes where they fele yt thorowly so that they may therby not onely tame theyr flesshe but also turne agayne to god that he may take pytye vppon theÌ„ and turne agayne to them Rede we not in the thyrde chapitre of the ê“phete Ionas that god seynge the Niniuytes chastyse and punyshe them selfe wyth fastynge and
agayne Then haue we by Tyndale also the answere to my dyâ—loge wherof I shall nothynge nâ—w nedeto saye bycâ—â—â—â— the confutacyon of that answere is the mater of my present booâ—e Then haue we also the boke of Fryth agaynste purgatorye therrours of whyche boke I shall hereafter god wyllynge declare you Then haue ye a boke of Luther translated into englyshe in the name of Bryghtwell but as I am enformed the boke was translated by Fryth a boke of suche sorte as Tyndale neuer made a more folyshe nor more full of false lyes And surely Frythes prologe yf yt be his as yt ys sayde ys ryght sutely and a very mete couer for suche a cuppe as bryngeth the people a draught of dedely poysen Then haue we the practyse of prelates wherin Tyndale had wente to haue made a specyall shewe of hys hygh worldely wytte and that men sholde haue sene therin that there were nothynge done amonge prynces but that he was fully aduertysed of all the secretes and that so farreforth that he knew the pryuy practyse made betwene the kynges hyghnes and the late lorde cardynall and the reuerende father Cuthbert then bishoppe of London and me that yt was dyuysed wylyly that the cardynall sholde leue the chauncellourshyppe to me and the byshopryche of DurhmÌ„ to my sayde lorde of London for a whyle tyll he lyste hym selfe to take them both agayne was not this a wyly dryft trow you whyche whyle euery man well seeth there was no man so madde to tell Tyndale no man dowteth but that Tyndale dyuysed yt of his owne imagynacyon and then nedeth no man to doute what maner a brayne Tyndale hath that dremeth suche frantyque dryftes Then haue we now come forth the boke of frere Barns somtyme doctour in Camdrydge whyche was for heresye byfore this tyme abiured and is at this daye comen to the realme by saufe conducte whyche at his humble suyte the kynges hyghnesse of his blessed disposycyon condescended to grauÌ„te hym to th ende that yf there myght yet any sparke of grace be founden in hym yt myghte be kepte kyndeled and encreaced rather then the man to be caste away whyche manner of crysten zele and pryncely benygnyte hys grace hadde byfore vsed both to Rycharde Bayfeld and George Constantine whych came ouer hyther wythout saufe conducte vppon the onely truste of his gracyouse forgyuenesse and had yt And theruppon to by and by both twayne deceyptefully dyd abuse his goodnesse brought in agayn mo of Tyndales bokes and false heresyes a freshe whereof as god hath of his iustyce synnys requytte the tone so mote his mercy by grace amende the tother But to speke of frere Barns booke surely of all theyr bookes that yet came abrode in englysshe of all whych was neuer one wyse nor good was neuer none yet so bad so folysshe nor so false as hys as it hath synnes hys comynge ben playnely proued in hys face and that in such wyse that when the bokes that he cyteth and alledgeth in hys booke were brought forth before hym and hys ignorauÌ„ce shewed hym hym selfe dyd in dyuerse thynges confesse hys ouersyghteâ— and clerely knowleged that he had myssetaken and wronge vnderstanden the places And was in suche wyse fynally confounded wyth shame that he was in a mameryng whyther he wolde retourne agayne ouer the see or tary styll here and renounce hys heresyes agayne and tourne agayn to Crystes catholyke chyrche And therfore he desyred that he myghte haue a lerned man then present assygned vnto hym for the ferther instruccyon of hys conscyence whyche hys request was grauÌ„ted hym and what wyll ferther come theron god knoweth If god gyue hym the grace to amende euery good maÌ„ wyll be glad therof If he haue so farre gone agaynste goddes trewth therby greued god in such wyse that god haue all redy gyuen hym ouer for euer or ellys that though god offer hys grace agayne the malyce of the mannes wyll wythstande it yet and reiecte it it is not then to be dowted but god wyll fynde a tyme for hym well inough to shew his iustyce on hym as he hath done vppon such other namely of late in Swycherland vppon zuinglius which was the fyrst that brought Barns heresye thyther concernyng the sacrament of the aulter But as for hense he shall I am sure haue leue to departe saufe accordynge to the kynges saufe conducte And yet hath he so demeaned hym selfe synnys hys comynge hyther that he hath clerely broken forfayted hys saufe conducte and lawfully myghte be burned for hys heresyes yf we wolde laye his heresyes and his demeanure syth hys comynge hyther both twayne vnto his charge But lette hym go thys ones for god shall fynde hys tyme full well Then haue we ferther yet besyde Barns boke the a b c for chyldren And bycause there is no grace therin left we shold lakke prayours we haue the prymer and the ploughmans prayour and a boke of other small deuocyons and then the hole psalter to After the psalter chyldren were wont to go to theyr Donat theyr Accydence but now they go strayte to scrypture And therto haue we as a Donat the boke of yâ— pathwaye to scrypture and for an Accidence bycause we sholde be good scolers shortely and be sone spedde we haue the whole summe of scrypture in a lytle boke so that after these bokes well lerned we be mete for Tyndales pentateukes and Tyndales testament and all the tother hygh he resyes that he and Iay and Fryth and frere Barns teche in all theyr bokes bysyde of all whyche heresyes the seed is sowen and pretyly sprongen vppe in these lytle bokes byfore For the Prymer and Psalter prayours all were traÌ„slated and made in this maneâ— by none other but heretykes The Psalter was translated by George Iay the presteâ— that is wedded now and I here say the Prymer to wherein the seuen psalmes be set in wythout the lateny leste folke shold pray to sayntes And the Dirige is leste out clene lefte a man myght happe to pray theron for hys fathers soule In theyr calendar byfore theyr deuout prayers they haue sette vs a new saynt syr Thomas Hitton the heretyke that was burned in kent of whom I shall tell you more after Hym haue they set in on saynt Mathy is euen be the name of saynt Thomas the martyr A longe worke wold yt be to reherse you all theyr bokes for there be yet mo then I know Agaynste all whyche the kynges hygh wysedome polytyquely prouyded in that his hyghnes by his proclamacions forbode any maner englysh bokes prented byionde yâ— see to be brought into this realme or any to be solde prentedâ— wythin this realme but yf the name of the prenter and his dwellynge place were sette vppon the boke But yet so is yt as I sayde byfore that of these vngracyouse bokes full of pestylent poysened heresyes that haue in other realmes all redy kylled by scysmes and warre
abyde the gloryâ— He wolde not be a knowen that hym selfe was preste but sayed that he had by the space of .ix. yeres ben beyonde the see and there lyued by the ioyners crafte How be it he sayd that he had allwaye as hys leysour wolde gyue hym leue and as he coude fynde oportunyte in places where he came taught the gospell of god after hys owne mynde and hys owne opynyoÌ„ not forcyng of the determynacion of the chyrch sayd that he intended to hys power so to perceuerstyll Of his techyng these thinges were parte Fyrst as for baptysme he agreed it for a sacrament necessarye to saluacyon how be it euery lay person he sayd myght as well baptise as a preste were the chyld in necessyte or not and that the forme of baptysyng vsed in the chyrch were mych better yf it were spoken in englysshe Of matrymony whyther it were a sacrament or not he sayed he wyste nere But he sayed yet that it was a thynge necessary and of crysten people to be obserued and kepte How be it as for the solempnysacyon of maryage at chyrche he agreed it for goodâ— but sayd it neded not The man ment by lykelyhed that it was good inough to wed vppon a cusshyon when the dogges be a bedde as theyr prestes wedde I wene where theyr persons be knowen For ellys they let not to wedde openly at chyrche and take the hole parysshe for wytnesses of theyr bestely bychery The extreme vnccyon or anelynge and confyrmacyon he sayed be no sacramentes of the chyrche nor be nothynge necessarye to the soule The sacrament of order he sayed is no sacrament of the chyrche nor was neuer ordeyned by god in the new testament but onely by man The masse he sayed sholde neuer be sayed For he sayed that to saye masse after the maner of the chyrche is rather synne then vertue As for confessyon made to a preste he sayed nothynge profyteth the soule nor penaunce enioyned of the preste vnto the penytent confessed is nothynge necessary Purgatory he denyed â—ayed also that neyther prayour nor fastynge for yâ— soules departed can do them any good To vow and entre into any relygyon approued by the law he sayed auayleth not but he sayed that all that entre into relygyon synne in so doynge He helde also that no man hath any fre wyll after that he hath onys synned He held that to say any diuyne seruyce after the ordynauÌ„ce of the chyrche auayleth nothynge and that all dyuyne seruyce maye be lefte vnsayed wythout any synne He helde that all the images of Cryste and hys sayntes sholde be throwen out of the chyrche He helde also that what so euer the 〈◊〉 or the generall conÌ„sayle make besyde that that is expressely commaunded in scrypture euery man may lawfully breke it without any maner synne at all mortall or venyall eyther He held also that yt is not lawfull neyther for the kynge of England nor for any other cristeÌ„ prince to make any law or statute for the punyshemeÌ„t of any thefte or any other cryme by whyche lawe any man sholde suffer deth For he sayde that all suche lawes be contrarye to the gospell whyche wyll no man to dye As touchynge the blessed sacrament of the auter he sayd yt is a necessary sacrament but he helde that after the consecracyon there was none other thynge therin but onely that very substaunce of materyall brede wyne and so he sayde he fermely byleued and that he wolde holde that opynyon to the deth Fynally holdyng all these abomynable heresyes wyth yet dyuerse other mo of lyke sewte sorte he sayd that he was very certayne and sure that he hadde the grace of god with hym and that the holy goost was wythin hym And so was he after myche fauour shewed hym myche labour charytably taken for the sauynge of hym delyuered in conclusyon for his obstinacye to the seculare handes and burned vppe in hys false fayth and heresyes wherof he lerned the great parte of Tyndales holy bokes and nowe the spiryte of errour and lyenge hath taken his wreched soule wyth hym strayte from the shorte fyre to the fyre euerlastyng And this is â—o syr Thymas Hytton the dyuyls stynkyng martyr of whose burnynge Tyndale maketh boste wherfore syth Tyndale aloweth his cause he must nedes defend his artycles And now wote I â—ell that some of those artycles Tyndale hath hym self geueÌ„ ouer at laste for shame as the artycle agaynst images and the artycle agaynst yâ— lybertye of mannys fre wyll wherin he bereth me in hande in his answere to my dyaloge that I bylye Luther But when I shall come to the place I shall lette you se Luthers owne wordes in that poynte so playne that ye shall not meruayle though Tyndale were ashamed of hys mayster And yet shall ye meruayle that Tyndale was so shamelesse to denye the thynge whyche ye shall se so playnely proued But ye se that of thys holy martyr Tyndale hath not so great cause to glorye but that he may scrape out hys name agayne out of the caleÌ„dare and restore the blessed byshoppe saynte Policarpus agayne into his place Then haue ye hadde here burned synnys at London of late Rycharde Bayfelde late a monke and a preste whyche fell to heresye and was abiured and after that lyke a dogge returnynge to his vomyte and beynge fledde ouer the see and sendynge from thense Tyndales heresyes hyther wyth many myscheuouse sortes of bokes hadde yet the kynges gracyouse forgyuenes as yt was after proued bothe by other mennys and his owne confessyon to was occupyed aboute two thynges at ones that is to wyt both in sewyng for remyssyon and perdon of hys offence for bryngynge in those bokes therwith also in sellyng theÌ„ here styll secretely sendyng ouer for mo with whych at last he was taken And to reherse his heresyes nedeth lytle the bokes that he brought well sheweth them and his holy lyfe well declareth them whenâ— beynge both a preste and a monke he went about two wyues one in Brabande a nother in Englande what he ment I can not make you sure whyther he wold be sure of the tone yf the tother sholde happe refuse hyâ— or that he wolde haue them both the tone here the tother there or ellys both in one place the tone bycause he was preste the tother bycause he was monke Of Bayfeldes burnynge hath Tyndale no great cause to glory For though Tyndales bokes brought hym to burnynge yet was he not so constante in his euangelycall doâ—tryne but that after that he was taken all the whyle that he was not in vtter dyspayre of perdon he was well contente to haue forsworen yt agayne and letted not to vtter hys euangelicall brethern both it England and ellys where causynge some of them to be taken as George Constantyne ere he escaped was redy to haue in worde at the leste wyse abiured all that holy doctryne what his herte was god and he know
please god then man But when Tyndale that ys an heretyke putteth for a rule of the peoples obedyence to a good crysten prynce that they be bounden to obay hys teranny yf yt be not agaynste his fayth I say that this his rule of obedyence ys a playne exhortacyon to dysobedyence and rebellion For euery man well seeth that Tyndale amonge many other abhominable heresyes techeth for the ryght faith that freres may lawfully wedde nuÌ„nys and that no man is bounden to the kepynge of any fastyng day or holyday made by the chyrch and that no man sholde pray to any saynte nor pray for all crysten soules and that yt is great synne to do any wurshyppe to crystys precyouse body in the blessed sacramente of the awter and wolde the people sholde kepe hys false translacyon of scrypture for mayntenance of these heresyes And therfore yf any prynce make a lawe againste Tyndales heresyes in any of these poyntes or suche other lyke Tyndale here teacheth thaâ— the people are not bouÌ„den to obay yt but may and must wythstande suche tyranny Or at the leste wyse though they be bouÌ„den peraduenture openly to obaye theyr pryncis tyranny in forberynge fleshe on good fryday or coÌ„mynge to goddes seruyce on whytsone sonday or freres in forberynge open weddynge with noÌ„nes in all which thinges they be yet by Tindales godly gospell at theyr euangelycall lybertie secretely to do what they liste theym selfe where no peace is brokeÌ„ nor any weke coÌ„science offended yet for any law or coÌ„mauÌ„demeÌ„t eyther of prynce or pope or generall counsayle of all crysten nacyons or of any angell that wolde come out of heuen to commaunde in goddys name yâ— coÌ„trary euery maÌ„ must kepe still Tyndales false translacyon of scrypture and abyde by hys other false bokes made for the mayntenaunce of hys manyfolde false heresyes And no man muste for no law nor commaundement pray to any saynt nor for any soule in purgatory nor kysse any relyque nor crepe to Crystes crosse nor do any worshyppe to Crystes blessed body and bloode in the holy sacrament of the aulter But yf any prynce wolde by any lawe or commaundement compelle hys people to any of those thynges then Tyndale here playnely teacheth them that they maye and muste styffely wythstande hys tyranny So that fynally coÌ„cernynge obedyence Tyndales holy doctryne is that the people sholde in the defence of hys false heresyes not let to dysobaye but stubernly to wythstande theyr prynce whych yf any man were so mad to do then were therfore in theyr obstynacye burned or otherwyse in theyr rebellyon slayne there were the tryumphe the greate reste and glory of Tyndales deuelysh prowde dyspytuouse harte to delyte and reioyce in the effusyon of suche peoples blode as his poysened bokes had myserably bywyched and from trew crysten folke turned into false wycked wreches Now to th entent that ye maye the more clerely perceyue the malycyouse mynde of these men and that theyr pestyleÌ„t bokes be bothe odyouse to god and dedely contagyouse to men and so myche the more perylouse in that theyr false he relyes wylyly walke forth vnder the counterfayt vysage of the trew crysten fayth thys is the cause and purpose of my present labour wherby god wyllyng I shall so pull of theyr gaye payâ—ted vysours that euery man lystyng to loke theron shall playnely perceyue and byholde the bare vgly gargyle facys of theyr abomynable heresye And for bycause the mater is longe and my leysour seld shorte I can not as I fayne wolde sende out all at ones but yf I sholde kepe styll all togyther by me lenger then me thynketh conuenyeâ—t I sende out now therfore of thys present worke these thre bookes fyrste In the fyrst of whyche I answere Tyndales preface made before his answere to my dyaloge whiche preface of hys is in a maner an introduccyoÌ„ into all his heresyes The seconde boke is agaynst hys defence of hys translacyon of the new testament The thyrde agaynst two chapyters of Tyndales answere the tone whythet the word were afore the chyrche or the chyrche afore the worde the tother whyther the apostles lefte any thynge vnwryten necessary to saluacyon wheruppon greate parte of all hys heresyes hange Now shall I god wyllyng at my nexte leysor go ferther in hys booke and come to the very brest of all this batayle that is to wyt the questyon whyche is the chyrche For that is the poynt that all these heretyke by all the meanes they may labour to make so darke that by theyr wyllys no man sholde wyt what they meane But I truste to drawe the serpent out of hys darke denne and as the poetes fayne that Hercules drew vppe Cerberus the mastyffe of hell into the lyght where hys eyen dased so shall I wyth the grace of that lyght whych illumyneth euery man that cometh in to this worlde make you that mater so lyghtsome and so clere to euery man that I shall leue Tyndale neuer a darke corner to crepe into able to hyde hys hed Then after that I haue so clerely confuted Tyndale coÌ„cernynge that poynt and shall haue playnely proued you the sure and stedfaste authoryte of Crystes catholyke knowen chyrche agaynste all Tyndales tryflynge sophystycacyons whyche he wold sholde seme so solempne subtyle insolubles whyche ye shall se proued very frantyke folyes after thys done I say before I go ferther wyth Tyndale I purpose to answere good yong father Fryth whych now sodaynly commeth forth so sagely that .iii. olde men my brother Rastell the bysshoppe of Rochester I matched wyth father Fryth alone be now but very babys and as he calleth vs insipientes But thus goth the worlde forth bytwene Fryth and vs. He encreaceth I se well as fast as we decay For ones I wene the yongeste of vs thre thre dayes ere father Fryth was borne had lerned within a lytle as mych as father Fryth hath now How be it I shall leue yonge father Fryth in his pryde glory for the whyle But wheÌ„ Tindale is ones in yâ— article touchyng the chyrch coÌ„futed theÌ„ hath Frith alredy concernynge purgatory clerely lost the felde and all hys welbeloued boke is not worth a bâ—ton though it were all as trew as it is false For then is the fayth of the chyrche in that poynt infallyble or at the lest vnculpable were there scrypture therfore or not And no scrypture can there proue the very trew chyrch to holde an artycle as trew fayth that were in dede dampnably false And yet shall I for all that go ferther wyth yonge father Fryth and to wch yf god wyll euery parte of hys freshe paynted boke and so shall I plukke of I truste the moste gloryouse fethers from hys gaye pecoks tayle that I shall seue hym yf he haue wyt and grace a lytell lesse delyghte lykynge in hym selfe then he semeth now to haue whyche thynge hath hytherto made hym for to stande not a lytell in hys owne lyght I praye
haue ecclesia thorow out the new testament translated by thys word câ—â—â—che yâ— then Tyndale in all hys gay tale telleth vs nothyâ—â—e to purpose But that argument is now lyke as yf he wolde haue argued thus If mayster More wyll graunâ—â— me that euery horse is a goose then must he nedys grâ—â—nte me that euery mare must haue a gander to get her 〈◊〉 â—ole For I nede not to graunte hym the thyâ—â—â— that he â—â—pposeth Now tell I Tyndale that in no wyse I â—yll not haue it so and that I neuer tolde hym that 〈…〉 haue so â—uâ— I saye playnely that yf he shâ—lâ—e thoâ—â—â—oâ—t 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 stament translate thys worde eâ—clesia by thys worde 〈◊〉 I saye that he sholde translate it very naught And for bycause that Tyndale eyther euyll perceyueth my wordes or elles euyll remeÌ„bred them or fynally which is moste lykely wolde wyllyngly make the reader to take them wronge I wyll desyre the reader to loke vppon the place hym selfe which is yâ— .viii. chapyter of the thyrd boke and there shall he fynde that I fynde the faute not in that he translateth this worde ecclesia sometyme in to this worde congregacyon but that he chaungeth this worde chyrch in to this worde congregacyon that is to say that he translateth this worde ecclesia in to this worde coÌ„gregacyon in such places as he shold haue traÌ„slated yt in to this word chyrch that is where so euer he hath put this worde congregacyon for the companye of crysten people for that companye is in englyshe sygnyfyed and of olde hath ben by this holy word chyrche and neuer by this worde congregacyon This is the faute that I fynde and tell Tyndale in that chapyter good and playne causes wherfore whyche Tyndale here letteth slyppe But I wolde in no wyse that as Tyndale taketh me ecclesia sholde alwaye be translated by this worde chyrche for that were also wrong For trewth it is that ecclesia sygnifyeth in the greke tonge a congregacyon wythout respecte of eyther good or bad crysten or vncrysten For Tyndale sayth therin trewth that the worde ecclesia was vsed a thousande yere before crystendome byganne as the bokes proue But yt wyll be hard to proue warraunt that this word chyrch was vsed for any congregacyon byfore criâ—tendome began or yâ— euer it sygnifyed any cogregacioÌ„ other then crysteÌ„ And therfore his reason grouÌ„ded vppoÌ„ this worde ecclesia is lytle worth syth it procedeth not in lykewyse in this word chyrch And yet touÌ„chynge this worde ecclesia as connynge as Tyndale wold seme therin wyth his greke all he semeth buâ— porely to perceyue yt For ye shall vnderstand that this worde ecclesia in the greke tonge dyd not sygnyfye euery man â—â—â—â—â—â—upany or congregacyon nor sygnyfyed not all the cytesayâ—â— of aâ—y cytye wyth that respecte that they were cyteâ—â—â—â—â—s of â—hatâ—yty or that they were gathered for playeng or 〈…〉 any such other caâ—se but onely these congrâ—gaâ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 â—ere gatherâ—d to gâ—ther to coÌ„men vppon 〈…〉 eyther aboute the comen 〈…〉 peace or waâ—re or some other commodyte or for pryuate folkes besynes in such places as all the comen people were iudges as mych was vsed in Grece and sometyme in Rome to and was as ye wolde saye the assemblye of the court or the comen counsayle Now for as myche as crysten people dyd resort to gether amonge them selfe to prayour and preachyng and makyng of good ordynaunces delyuered them by the apostles thys name of ecclesia was applyed vnto yâ— coÌ„gregacyon of the crysten company And though yt beganne of such assembles together yet afterwarde yt obtayned also bothe amonge the Grekes and Latines crystened to sygnyfye the crysten folk whyther they were at chyrch or at home and to sygnyfye also the vnyuersall nomber of all crysten people thorow oute all the world where as it sygnifyed no such maner of thyng among the paynyms byfore but onely theyr seuerall assembles such as I byfore descrybed you and whych was in laten called concio And yet toke the laten chirch the greke word ecclesia of the greke chyrch that beganne byfore them and neuer vsed this worde concio whych sygnyfyed amonge the latine paynyms both the congregacyon or assembly and the oracyon also that any man pronounced among them in the same assembly Now may ye perceyue that Tyndale wyth all his greke tolde you but a lame tale For he telleth you not what manner of congregacyon ecclesia dyd sygnyfye in the greke but mysse taketh yt to sygnyfye euery manner of congregacyon at auenture And by this ye maye also perceyue how lytle yt maketh for his purpose that saynte Luke wherof Tyndale so bosteth calleth ecclesia thryes in one chapyter of the actes the coÌ„gregacyon that was gathered in Ephese agaynste saynte Paule For that was suche a congregacyon as I tell you that ecclesia properly sygnifyed amonge yâ— paynyms sauyng that they gathered to gether vppon a rumour and not after theyr customable callynge Now though the chyrch was then newly bygonne to be called by the same name of ecclesia and that after thexample of the tother assembly and the name not taken from the tother assemblye nor theyâ— assembly for suche maters called by none other how wolde Tyndale haue had saynte Luke tell the tale but by suche wordes as then represented the mater But that maketh nothynge for his purpose but 〈◊〉 agaynste yt For syth that this worde ecclesia dyd there sygnyfy that congregacyon of the Ephesyans whyche were paynyms and therfore in that place ought not to be translated by this word chyrch whych sygnifyeth onely a cristen coÌ„gregacyon and not a coÌ„gregacyon of paynyms so shuld ecclesia in lyke wyse whereso euer yt sygnyfyeth a crysten congregacyon be translated by this worde chyrch whyche is euer hath ben the worde that synnes crystendome fyrste beganne amonge englyshe men hath alway serued therfore not be translated by this worde coÌ„gregacyon whych word of congregacyon is a worde of latine and sygnyfyeth a sort gathered to gether in to one floke as they speke in gregem oui uin gregem gruum gregem anserum And so wheÌ„ Tyndale hath all sayed and all done this worde congregacion excepte some specyall places where they haue by custome appoynted it to sygnyfye some sorte of men as in some vnyuersyties yt sygnifyeth theyr assembles ellys where no such custome hath appropred yt to any specyall manner of congregacyon the terme congregacyon absolutely sette sygnifyeth no more a companye of crysten men then a fayre flokke of vncrysten geese But yet the chaunge of the worde yf Tyndale had done it eyther of chaunce or of purpose for hys pleasure and for none euyll purpose I wolde neuer haue spoken worde agaynst it But for as mych as I perceyue yâ— he hath ben with Luther and was to at the same tyme when he so translated it and that I knewe well the malycyouse heresyes that Luther began to brynge forth therfore muste I
chyrch vsed in theyr langage presbyteros But as for this word eldeâ— which Tindale sayth is the old latyne translacyoÌ„ he were lyke to pore out his eyen vppâ—â— latyne boke ere he fynde yâ— englyshe word elder thâ—â—◠〈…〉 he cause yt to be wryten in hym selfe And yet he layeth lyke textes .iii. or foure some in the pystles of saynt IohnÌ„ some in the Actes where he fyndeth in stede of presbyteros this word seniores and natu maiores and alwaye he setteth thereto lo here is presbyteros called an elder and an elder in byrth as though this latine word seniores or natu maiores were this englysh word elder where he sayth that presbyteros is called elder in the olde traÌ„slacyon whych as ye se muste nedes be false but yf this englyshe worde be in that latine boke and that he make englyshe latine and latine englyshe But now leste he call the redargucyon of his foly sophystycacyon lette vs diuine for hym what he myght meane He wyll happely say that he meaneth that this greke word prâ—sâ—yteros is in the texte that he hath alleged called by the olde translatour seniores and seniores sygnyfyeth elder or elders And so though this worde elder be not in the latine traÌ„slacyon yet syth that latine worde is there that sygnyfyeth in laten the same thynge that this worde elder sygnyfyeth in englyshe we can not blame hym for translatynge presbyteros in to thys worde elder but yf we blame in lyke wyse the translatour for translatynge presbyteros in to this worde seniores Fyrste yf I sayed that the olde translacyon were in that poynt not so well as yt myght haue ben I sholde not saye so alone And Erasmê° whom Tyndale calleth my derlyng and whom hym selfe doth for all that in his own traÌ„sâ—acyon preferre byfore the olde doth as well in the sayed pystle of saynt Peter as in the sayd .xx. chapiter of thapostles Actes not onely kepe styll the greke worde presbyteros but sheweth also that the old translatour translated it not well bycause he translated there thys worde presbyteros into thys worde sâ—niores and in the tother place into maiores natu but sayth that he shold rather haue kepte styll the worde presbyteros vnchaunged bycause that worde is yt that sygnyfyeth authoryte wyth the grekes where senioreâ— in latine sygnyfyeth but theyr age and all were not olde as appered by Timothe And for that cause in the sayed place of saynte Peter his pystle saynt Hierome amendeth that olde translacyon and kepeth presbyteros styll recitynge saynte Peter in this wyse Presbyteros qui sunt â—n vobis obsecro ego compresbyter wherein saynt Hierome was rather contâ—â—â— to ioyne the latine coÌ„iunccyon with the greke word and â—all yâ— compresbyter then to chaunge that worde sygnyfyenge the 〈◊〉 in to seniâ—res and consenâ—or sygnifyeng but the age For amonge the latines senior sygnyfyed none other but amonge the grekes presbyteri was the name that many tymes sygnyfyed rulers and gouernours Now yf we lyste we may yet excuse the olde translatour whych how sone after Crystes deth he translated it who can tell And then when the latine chyrche had no laten worde for the crysten prestes all redy receyued vsed what blame was he worthy that toke that worde not contynually but amonge whyche of all the latine wordes semed to hym to go nexte the sygnifycacyon of presbyteros at that tyme. And that was as hym thought seniores in whych word yet the chyrch neuer folowed hym though but though they redde his traÌ„slacion openly in diuine seruyce yet neyther in theyr wrytynge nor preachynge wold they take vp that worde and call a preest seniour as appereth by the bokes and sermons of all holy doctours synnys And therfore Tyndale is wythoute excuse whyche hath translated presbyteros by this englyshe worde elders a worde vnknowen amonge englyshe men to sygnyfye prestes and amonge whom this word preste was the proper englesh word well knowen and had serued in that sygnifycacyon so many hundred yere afore Tyndale was borne Also go me to the place whych Tyndale alledgeth in the fyrste pystle of saynt Petre Seniores qui sunt in vobis obsecro ego consenior pascite qui in vobis est grezem Christi whych place I take for ensample For where he layeth two places of the pystles of saynt IohnÌ„ and one in the .xx. of the Actes all be for one purpose and this one place answerd answereth them all I saye therfore that Tyndale hath euen here in this his newe boke translated that same place wronge and all the remanaunt in lyke wyse And that wyll I proue partely by Tyndales owne wordes whych in this boke folowe the translacyon of those wordes The elders that are amonge you I beche whych am an elder also that ye â—ede the flocke of Cryste whych is amonge you There is presbyteros calleâ— an elder And in that he sayth fede Cristes flocke he meaneth euen the ministers that were chosen to teache the people and to enforme them in goddâ—â— worde and â—â— saye persones More Lo Tyndale here shewed hym selfe that by this worde seâ—niores be there vnderstanden the minysters that were châ—â—â— to teache peple Then say I that yf this word seniores 〈◊〉 in that sygnyfycacyon there Tyndale sholde not translate yt in to this englysh worde elder whych sygnifyeth not the offyce but the age here And this is I say trew all were it so that Tyndales false heresy were trew that holy orders were no sacrament at all but a bare offyce For yf yt were but in a prophane comen storye in whych men maye boldely be in the translacyon at myche more lybertye then in holy scrypture yet were he a noughtye transâ—atour that wolde translate a thynge in to suche a worde as in the tonge in to whyche he translateth is not vnderstanden in that sygnyfycacyon As yf percase a man wolde translate a latine cronycle in to englyshe in whyche were mencyon made of some thynge done in London yf he founde in that cronycle the aldermen called by the name of senatores or peradueÌ„ture seniores he shold yet in his englyshe translacyon call them not senatours nor elders neyther syth neyther of those two wordes is in englyshe the name by whych the aldermen of London be knowen but he muste therfore translate senatores and seniores also in to aldermen in his englyshe translacyon And ferther yf he there founde this worde senatus Londinensis he shold not traÌ„site yt in to this worde senate but eyther into mayre and aldernâ—en or percase yf the circuÌ„staunce of the mater so lede hym to yt in to mayre aldermen and comen counsayle And therfore as ye playnely se Tyndales defence of his translatynge presbyteros in to elders is as feble to stykke to as is an olde roten elder stykke though yt were but in a prophane storye Now where yt is in the holy storye of Crystes gospell what manner a thyng is it
he sayth that Cryste and his apostles dyd coÌ„fyrme euery sermone with a sondry miracle For tyll he proue me that by scrypture I denye yt playnely For syth neyther scrypture teacheth yt nor the catholyke chyrch preacheth yt nor any reason proueth yt I maye well and boldely denye yt and so I do For I se well his falsed for whych he fayneth yt He seeth miracles wrought by god plentuousely in hys chyrche and that thereby his chyrche and the fayth therof is confermed and therfore to brynge at the lestewyse some parte therof in questyon he wold saye that we fynde not specyall miracles done for euery poynte But I say no more dyd the apostles neyther nor Tyndale shall neuer proue yt For yf he wyll proue me that he muste proue me trew not onely the thyng that hym selfe sayth whych is more then euer he shall proue trew that is to wyt that they proued euery sermon wyth a sondry miracle but also that eyther they neuer preched but one artycle in one sermone Or yf they preached many he muste then proue me two thynges one that they coÌ„fyrmed that sermon wyth as many miracles as they preached poyntes a nother that they shewed the people that the miracles whyche they then dyd was so many miracles for so many poyntes for ellys myght all those myracles be done for the profe of one of those poyntes and all the remanaunt vnproued For yf Tyndale wyll say that thinge neded not for as mych as any one miracle suffysed to proue them all syth yt proued hym a trew preacher then shall Tyndale say â—o the thynge that I wolde haue hym saye for then hym selfe proueth that it neded not that they sholde proue euery sermone wyth a seuerall myracle made amonge one people nor peraduenture any one sermone neyther otherwyse then as by miracles shewed at other occasions bysyde theyr sermons they proued them selfe holy men and goddes messengers For we fynde many miracles done by them at suche tymes as they were not makynge of sermons And yet when they dyd them in Crystes name we finde not alway that they added a specyall artycle of oure faith whyche specyaltye they wolde haue by that miracle confermed And thus ye se that hâ—re he affermeth one thinge that he shall neuer proue whych thynge yet I wolde not vouche safe to speke of sauynge that he doth it of an euill purpose For hys mayster Martyne Luther when Erasmus layed agaynste hym for mannys fre wyll the doctryâ—e of the olde holy saynts whose fayth was approued by miracles layed agaynst hym agayne that though they dyd myracles Erasmus yet coulde not proue that any of them dyd a myracle specyally for that artycle and therfore he wolde haue that artycle seme vnproued as for any myracle And this way taketh Tyndale now for the selfe same â—â—tâ—nt therfore fayneth that the apostles confermed euery sermone wyth a sondrye myracle But I dowte not but that yf we sholde bydde Tyndale here or Luther hym selfe proue vs euery artycle of his fayth whych he wolde we sholde wene were the fayth that the apostles preached yf we sholde I say dyd them proue vs that the apoâ—â—les confâ—â—med euery artycle therof by a sondry myracle they shold seeke in scrypture tyll theyr eyen were â—â—â—ete they â—â—â—â—de it Moreâ—â—er Tyndales wordes fyghte to gether and one 〈◊〉 can not agre wyth an other For yf these wordes â—â— trew that they preued euery sermon with a sondry myracle 〈…〉 false that he sayth here also that is to wyt of â—â—racles 〈…〉 be wryten as nedeth 〈…〉 that Tyndale sayâ—h that thapoâ—â—le◠〈◊〉 〈…〉 miracle yt foloweth that euery necessary poynte that they preached they dyd proue by miracle Then ferther yf euery necessary poynte that they preached they preued by miracle bycause yt was nedefull that yt sholde be for credence to be geuen to that point for our soules helth it was nedefull then for the coÌ„seruacion of the same credence yf the credeÌ„ce coulde not be kepte wythout wrytynge that of euery suche necessary poynt of fayth and necessarye doctryne of theyrs wythout whych byleued we canne not be saued there were one miracle wryten at the leste But there ys not of euery suche artycle one miracle wrytyn ergo yt is not trewe that Tyndale goth aboute to proue that the miracles as many be wryten as nede and that euery necessary thynge is wryten And veryly yf euery thynge that we sholde necessaryly byleue had ben th entent of god to haue it put in wrytynge and that yt hadde ben also necessary that euery poynt were preued by one miracle and not suffycyent that the prechers were proued by miracles them selfe therby their doctrine to be byleued yt were very probable then both that the wryters wolde haue wryten some thinges mych more open and playne theÌ„ they â—aue done and also that of euery necessary poynte of fayth they wolde haue wryten one miracle at the leste But now syth god entended not to gyue his new lawe by bokes but specyally by the necessary poyntes therof wryten in mennys hartes wherof hym selfe wolde be the specyall inwarde mayster he hath prouyded that scrypture to serue for parte but not to serue alone for all And syth suche myracles as be wryten therin suffyse to proue the apostles goddes trew preachers and therfore neded not myracles to be wrytenâ—for euery poynte of theyr preachynge no more neded there to be myracles done for euery poynt of theyr preaâ—â—â—ge And for farther profe therof hew many thynges preacâ—ed the apostles by theyr pystles wyth whyche we rede not that they sente by the messengere for euery poynte a myracle And thus good readers here ye se fyrste that thys poynâ— of Tyndales preachynge muste be better proued whyche poynt thus reproued answereth and reproueth clerely dyâ—â—â—â— other places of hys boke hereafter But yet is i◠〈◊〉 â—o â—e consydered wayed in hys wordes that he sayth 〈…〉 substauâ—ce in generall of euerythynge â—â—â—â—ssary to 〈◊〉 soules hesth both of what we ought to byleue and what we ought to do 〈◊〉 wryten So that what so euer we ought to byleue or do that same is wryten expressely or drawen of that whyche is wryten More In these wordes though I fynde lakke of trouth yet I sumwhat alow hys wyt as our sauyour sayed by the wykked bayly Lucae 15 whyche though he played the false shrewe for hys mayster prouyded yet wylyly sumwhat for hym selfe And so playeth Tyndale here For now that he playnely perceyueth that the doctryne is playnely false whyche hys mayster Luther hym selfe to haue taught so playnely bytwen them all thys whyle that is to wyt that there is no necessary trouth to be byleued but yf it be proued by playne euydent scrypture now cometh Tyndale and seeth that they shall be put to flyghte and fayne to runne awaye and therfore wylyly prouydeth a startynge hole steppynge from playne and euydent scrypture theyr old specyall playne euydent wordes vnto darke
amonge the people More Grete cause haue we to gyue thanke to god whose goodnesse wresteth the tonges of heretyques and maketh them there speke most agaynst theÌ„ selfe where they wene to speke for them selfe the beste as he serueth Tyndale here For these be the wordes that I wolde haue wysshed hym to say For where he meaneth that all must be wryten bycause that ellys there were nothynge that coude confounde false prophetes that sholde come and shewe false myracles excepte the trewe prechers sholde shewe trewe myracles agaynste them I answere to Tyndale two thynges The fyrste is that it is playne false that Tyndale taketh for a playne truth that is to wyt that the trewe prechers coude haue no thynge to confounde the false prophetes that sholde come wyth false myracles but yf all the trouth were wryten in scrypture autentyque amonge the people And that yf it so were then the trewe precheours had inough wythout trew myracles to confounde the false prophetes bryngynge false myracles The seconde thynge that I answere hym wyth is thys that yf it were trewe that he sayeth that wythout myracles nothynge wolde suffycyently serue in suche case excepte that euery necessary thynge were wryten in auten +tyque scrypture yet syth hym selfe confesseth that trewe myracles myghte in suche case suffycyently serue the trewe precheour and confounde the false and saue the fayth vp ryghte and that he can not saye but that god is able to do them when so euer he lyste and wyll neuer leue hys chyrche destytute of helpe and comforte necessary and therfore in suche necessyte wyll not fayle to do them Tyndale must nedes agre be he neuer so lothe to comme to it that god hath no necessyte for auoydynge of suche parell to prouyde that hys chyrche sholde haue euery necessary thynge delyuered vnto them and euer more kepte wyth them in autentyke scrypture whyle hym selfe by hys promyse wolde euer dwelle wyth them and hadde for the profe of theyr fayth agaynste false prophetes and theyr false myracles the myghtye meane of trew myracles and oute of measure greter in his owne hande whyche meane of miracles for the trew profe of his worde among mortall menne is and hath bene and euer shall be the fynall peremptorye stoppe agaynste all contradyccyon This secunde answere is open and playne inough in yt selfe And for as mych as the fyrste appereth not peraduenture so fully playne at the fyrste syght I shall make yt clerer when Tyndale sayth that excepte all were wryten that we be bounden to byleue or to do there were ellys nothyng saue miracles to confouÌ„de false prophetes that sholde come with false miracles ye perceyue well that he prosupposeth that yf euery such thyng be wryten in autentique scripture then wythout myracles the mater is saue inough and the trew preachers able inough to coÌ„founde the false by the scripture alone For but yf he saye so he sayth no more for the alledgyng of scrypture then for the alledgynge of the fayth wythout scrypture Now Tyndale tellynge vs thus we muste fyrst wyt of hym whych false ê“phetes he meaneth Paynyms Turkes or heretikes If he meane Panynyms or Turkes theÌ„ goeth he very farre wyde for the trew preachers can not coÌ„founde them wyth our autentyke scrypture for yt is not autentyke amonge them but they saye that yt is false If he meane heretykes he goth almoste as farre wyde for they wyll also when they lyste denye for holy scrypture any parte of holy scrypture that proueth agaynste theyr purpose as they denye the boke of Machabees bycause yt proueth purgatory and prayours for them that are dede and denye the pystle of saynte Iamys bycause yt reproueth a bare fayth wythout good workes Now yf they admytte the scrypture for scrypture yet are ye neuer the nere for they wyll denye the trew sense therof and obstynately defende a false sâ— that the trew preacher and that false prophete shall be styll as farre a sonder as yf they denyed the very scrypture yt selfe Now when he speketh of confoundynge them we must wyt of hym what he meaneth by coÌ„foundyng them whether he meane that the trewe preacher shall make the false prophete ashamed or that he shall make the people perceyue theyr doctryne for false As for makyng the false prophetes ashamed ye se your selfe they be so shamelesse that yt wyll not be for ye se they wedde nonnes openly And when they be not ashamed to loke folke in the face after that shameful sacrylege and abomynable bychery whereof wyll they be ashamed Now if he meane that the trewe preacher shall by thautenque wrytyng make the people perceyue the false prophete false I saye that shall he not do by scrypture any thyng more largely then he shall do the same by the worde of god vnwryten whyche worde Tyndale wolde haue no man by leue For the perceyuynge wherof suppose me now that the trew preacher and the false prophete came to gether to dyspute the trouth in a great audyence of people vppon some suche artycle as the false prophete wolde teache agaynst the comen fayth of the catholyque chyrche As let me se for ensample whether freres may wedde nonnes Tut nay that can serue for no sample yt is to clere and to farre vndysputable for any false prophete to fynde any reasonynge therin as the thynge whych neuer syth the world was pepled could haue founden any maÌ„ to thynke yt lawfull tyll now nor yet now neythe fyndeth any that so thynketh as many wreches as so sayth and so dothe nor yt were not possyble for the false prophete to fynde any colour therin but such as all the world wolde wonder at excepte suche bestes as luste to seyt so for hatered and despyght of honestye But let vs take therfore for ensample some suche heresye as hath bene holden dysputed of olde And what rather then one of the greattest that is to wyt that heresye that Arrius held and his great coÌ„pany that our sauyour Cryste was not one egall god wyth his father Suppose me therfore I saye that some false prophete were so deuelyshe as to preache that poynt agayne and that he hadde by false preachynge wonne vnto hym as Arrius had in his tyme myche people all redy of euery state and degre and that he sholde then come in an open audieÌ„ce of a mayne multytude to dyspute wyth any trew preacher that wolde offer hym self to defende in that poynte the parte and bylefe of the catholyque chyrche Now when the trew preacher and the false prophete were comen to gether and fallen iu dyspycyons in two pulpettes on hygh that all the people myght here them and that the tone alledged dyuerse textes of scrypture for the trouth the tother as many for the false parte and eche of them glose agaynst glose when the trew preacher wolde laye therto the consente of all the olde douctours of all the catholyque chyrch of Cryste this fyftene hundred yere the false prophete
speke or the blessed sacrament to blede to detecte theyr dyspyghtfull dealynge and make them be burned therfore where as they shall neuer fynde in scrypture that euer god suffred false miracle eyther by man or deuyll to be done to the confusyon of his trew prophete And therfore yt is playne yet agayne that tâ—e catholyke chyrch is the trew chyrche and all these heretykes congregacyons false Tyndale And beyonde that god wrote his testament vnto them allway both what to do and what to byleue euen in sacrameÌ„tes 〈◊〉 the sacrifices whych god 〈◊〉 Adams sonnes were no dumme popetrye or superstycyouse mahoâ—etâ—ye but sygnes of the testament of god and in them they red the worde of god as we do in bokes More Tyndale telleth vs here a nother fayre tale But in thys I say as I sayed byfore in the tother that hys tale lakketh but all that yt sholde haue that is to 〈◊〉 the profe For ye shall here now how he wolde seme to proue yt Tyndale The testament whyche god made wyth Noe that he wolde no moâ—e drowne the worlde wyth water he wrote in the sacrament of the raynebowe And the appoyntement made betwene hym and Abraam he wrote in the sacrament of cyrcumcysyon And therfore sayed Steuen Actes .vij. he gaue them the testament of cyrcumcysyon not that the outwarde cyrcumcysyon was the hole testament but the sacrament or sygne therof For cyrcumcysyon preached goddys worde vnto them as I haue in other places declared More Is not this well proued now He sheweth vs of sacrifices of cyrcumcisyon and of the raynebowe whyche he coupleth wyth sacryfyces and circumcysyon and calleth yt a sacrament lyke the tother bycause he wolde haue vs wene that no sacrament eyther then dyd or now doth any more profyt the soule then doth the raynebowe whyche raynebow whether god made new to make men sure of his promyse by the meruelouse new syght therof or that it beynge but an apparaunce naturall by the reflexyon of the sonne I wyll not dyspute bycause of other mennys wrytynge But thys I wote well I se no man wryte therof that euer saw yt a fore Nor yf it hadde neuer be sene yet there wolde I wene for all the naturall reasons that men make now therfore neuer a man haue myssed yt But as I saye were yt the tone were yt the tother god eyther made yt or appoynted yt but for a sygne of bodely helth and the worlde to be preserued from vnyuersall flode where as sacryfyces and cyrcumcysyon mych more the blessed sacramentes of Crystes chyrche perteyne to the soule helth not as bare sygnes but as thynges well helpyng there vnto as prayour doth and all reuerent maner and deuout fashyon vsed by man therein But thys is all Tyndales purpose to pull down the sacramentes and haue them taken for bare symple sygnes For surely to couple the sacryfyce of Abâ—ll or the sacrament of circumcysyon wyth the sygne of the raynebow is almoste as well lykened as to lyken the matens that men synge at chyrche or the blessed sacrament at the masse to the sygne of the sarasons hed But now coÌ„syder how well these thynges proue his goostly purpose He sayth that froÌ„ Adam to Moyses god taught them in sacrameÌ„tes alwaye both what they shold do what they sholde byleue and he proueth yt bycause god dyd so in thre And so this is hys argument god dyd so â—hryes ergo he dyd so aâ—way god dyd s◠〈◊〉 thre ergo he dyd so in al god in sacramentes taught them some thynges ergo in sacramentes he taught them all thynges where fyndeth Tyndale that god taught Abraam what thynge the cyrcumcysyon sholde sygnyfye or wherfore he sholde do yt other then that he wolde haue hym and all hys do yt what morall vertue he shold vnderstande therby as the cuttynge of and caâ—tynge awaye of all superfluouse carnall thynges or any suche other thynge what dyd he teche hym Or where fyndeth he that to the people was any suche thynge preached therby when the circumcisyon was geuen and commaunded In the sacryfyce of Abell in kyllynge and offerynge the bestes where fyndeth Tyndale that there was taught vnto Abell or any man ellys that yt sholde sygnyfye the kyllyng of fleshely lustes or any suche other thynges sauynge that they sholde serue god in that maner whyche yet we rather gather by reason then fynde yt wryten in scrypture where fyndeth he that Abraam was taught that in offerynge vppe his sonne Isaac and then the shepe in hys stede yt sholde sygnyfye the offerynge of Cryste vppon the crosse or any thyng ellys but his thankfull obedyence and profe of his faste fayth and hope in god And though yt may appere in euery sacryfyce and in euery prayour vnto god that men sholde loue god aboue all thynge yet in what sacrifyce were they lerned to loue theyr neyghboure Thys is a vayne tale of Tyndale whyche he shall neuer proue whyle he lyueth And yet the better he proueth it yf he coulde proue yt the worse sholde he make his mater For if sacramentes were wyth them in all that tyme able to be profytable wythout scrypture then so may oures be now profytable wythout scrypture excepte he fynde therfore a prohybycyon in scrypture whyche neyther he nor none of hys felowes euer founde yet nor neuer shall fynde whyle they lyue For where as they lay for a prohybycyon the wordes of Moyses in the Deuteronomy commaundynge that no man shall adde nor mynysheâ— they that laye that texte for a prohybycyon of oure sacramentes vnwryten be as I shall shew you afterwarde surely to madde to lyue Now seeth Tyndale this to be very trouth hym self thâ—â— yf sacrameÌ„tes were wythout scrypture profytable vnto theÌ„ and stode them in the stede of scrypture yt myght be by the same reason in lykewyse profytable to vs and stande vs instede whyche thynge destroyeth all his whole purpose And therfore to answere that wythall he sayth that so yt myght in dede yf that the wykked pope hadde not taken away the sygnyfycacyons of our sacramentes from vs as he hath robbed vs sayth Tyndale of the treÌ„w sence of all the scrypture Tyndale muste here tell vs whyche pope hath taken froÌ„ vs the sygnyfycacyon of the sacramentes and robbed from vs the trew sence of the scrypture If any pope this .viii. huÌ„derd yere by all whych tyme Tyndale sayth they haue ben all nought haue done any thyng therin contrary to the old popes yâ— were by the space of .vii. hundred yere nexte byfore that which popes he denyeth not for good nor caÌ„ not deny let hym tell whyche and wherin and wherby he can proue yt But that am I sure he shall neuer shew whyle he lyueth For I wote well that the olde holy workes that haue bene made as well by olde holy popes as saynte Gregory saynt Leo and other as by the olde holy doctours as saynt Hyerom saynt Austayneâ— and other concernynge as well the sygnyfycacyons of sacrameÌ„tes
hath all thynges necessary to be byleued wryten in scrypture whyche thynge is as false and reason yt is that yt be false when he concludeth yt vppon false But Tyndale perceyuyng well hym selfe how fals his fundacyon is how feble hys byeldynge is that he setteth theruppon hath therfore to make yt stande the surer vndershoren vnderpropped it wyth certayne other stronge postes made of roten redys One is that all thynges be now bysyde the olde testameÌ„t opened rychely in the new testameÌ„t that byfore were promysed Thys vnderpropper is not very proper for to bere vppe his byldynge for yt is the selfe same thynge that is in questyon For we saye that yf he take the new testament for the boke of that scrypture wryten he muste not onely saye but also proue that euery thynge is opened therein that of necessyte for our soule helth is to be byleued or done this is the thynge selfe that is in debate And therfore whyle he doth but tell vs and proue it not and so vnderproppeth his assercyon wyth yt selfe he sheweth hym self as wyse as one that leste his roten house sholde fall wold go about to take downe the roefe and pull vppe the grouÌ„dsell to vndershore the sydes wyth the same Then setteth he to yt a nother shorer that all thynge is in the new testament fulfylled that was promysed byfore also that there is no promise byhynde of ought to be sheâ—ed more saue the resurreccyon Nowe this shorer ys so surely sette that yt is shortely blowen downe quyte yf a man say no more but what than For bysydes that as there laye mo promyses in the olde testament then euery man well vnderstode so maye there yet peraduenture lye mo promyses vnperceyued yet eyther by Tyndale or me both in the old and in the new But I saye bysydes this and bysyde this also that Tyndale sayth here vntrew for bysyde the resurreccion there are yet vnfulfylled as well dyuerse promyses of tokeÌ„s thynges that shall come byfore the resurreccyon all those thynges perde that are promised to come after as the iudgement yt selfe and blesse or payne euerlastynge to the iudged bodyes but yet I saye bysyde all this what yf all the promyses be fulfylled sauynge the resurreccyon dothe that proue that there coulde be nothynge of necessyte byleued wythoute scrypture Is there nothynge to be byleued but promyses If god tell me a thynge or byd me do a thynge am I not bounde to byleue the tone nor to do the tother bycause they be no promyses If Tyndale speke wysely in thys I muste nedes confesse my foly for in good fayth I can se no wyt therein But fynally he setteth to a myghty stronge poste able to bere downe all when he sayth that Cryste and all hys apostles and all the angellys of heuen coulde preache no more then is preached of necessyte to our soules And therforeâ— and for all the wyse and well framed reasons whyche I haue reproued and proued vnresonable byfore he sayth that to receyue a new artycle of fayth wythout scrypture were as profytable for our soules as smoke for sore yies This is a substauncy all shorer lo and very surely set I assure you For fyrste I myght agre all that he sayeth and his purpose neuer the more proued For where he sayeth yâ— all is all redy preached that is necessary or can be necessarie to the soule yf I wold answere and say that is very trew all suche thynges is all redy preached but all suche preachyng is not wryten where were now Tyndales coÌ„clusyon But I wyll not be so madde to grauÌ„te hym that all is eyther writen or preached eyther that can be of necessyte to mannes soule For who wolde be so madde to thynke that god knoweth not many thynges that we know not and that he can yf yt please hym reuele and shew vs any of those and commaunde vs to byleue them when so euer he lyste And when he so wold do theÌ„ were they of necessyte to our soules saluacyon to be byleued And he maye when yt please hym commaunde vs to do some other thynges that he hath not commaunded yet and then sholde we be bouÌ„de to do them And he maye commaunde to leue vndone some thynges that he hath byfore commaunded to be done and then shâ—ldâ— we be bounden to leue them vndone And this is so playne and euydent to euery man that hath any sparke of reason in his hedde that I wonder where Tyndale hadde lefte his wyt when he wrote thys And this was also a wyse temperaunce of the mater that he sayeth for these wyse causes that yt were as holsome for our soules as smoke for sore yies yf we receyued any newe artycles of fayth wythout scripture If the yien of his soule were not sore blered or starke blynde wyth the smoâ—e oâ— the smoky fyre of hell he wolde sone haue sene wyth hys two yien hys two folyes in these few wordes For he sayth if we receyued a new artycle wythout scrypture wherby he confesseth that yf god wyll geue vs a new artycle in scrypture as he gaue Moyses yt were not vnholesome And what caÌ„ he then saye but yf god gyue yt wythout scrypture he must be byleued but yf Tyndale dare saye that the treâ—th of god do depende vpon his wrytynge and yâ— his worde be nought worth tyll yt be wryten A nother folâ— is thys that he sayth yf we receyue a new article and then all the samplesâ— that he putteth be olde and we shall putte hym some other as old Tyndale What holpe yt me to byleue that our ladyes bodye is in heuen More If thys be a new byleued artycle lette Tyndale tell wheÌ„ thys bylyef beganne he shall fynde that yt hath ben thus byleued euen froÌ„ the tyme of her deceace And now the thyng that almoste .xv. C. yere hath ben byleued he calleth a neâ— artycle But now how lyke is thys bylyef of this newe artycle of .xv. hundâ—ed yere olde vnto hys ensample of smoke sore yies For fyrste yf yt holpe hym not yet at the leste yt huâ—ted hym not as smâ—ke doth sore yies But syth it is trew and taught vnto the chyrche by the spyrytâ—â—f god whyche ledeth the chyrche intâ— euery troâ—th and â—hâ—â—hyrche growâ— into the consent and argument theâ—of by the same spiryte ofâ— concorde and agrement whych maketh all the house of onâ— myâ—de and though the bylefe therof were very new yet yt helpeth hym and doth hym good to byleue yt as yt helpeth hym and doth hym good yf he byleue other trouthes whych god hath reueled and shewed by wrytynge byfore excepte Tyndale trust not god vppon his word but yf he geue hym his wrytynge there vppon and his letters patentes vnder his great seale For ellys why sholde yt not helpe hym as mych to byleue that our ladyes body and soule is in heuen syth god hath taught his chyrche so to byleue as yt helpeth hym to byleue
that Enoch or Hely is bodye soule in paradyse syth he maye do the tone that doth the tother And he sayth the tone that sayth the tother though he saye them not bothe in one maner but the tone by wrytynge the tother by mouth For the inwarde inspiracyon of hys spyryte is his mouth vnto his resonable creatures How be yt he sayth and speketh in dede the tone thynge and the tother bothe of one fashyon For yf he speke he but inspyreth his worde in to some creature that speketh yt out And as he speketh he wryteth And therfore who so better byleueth the word of god wryten theÌ„ the worde of god vnwryteÌ„ that is to wyt the scripture then the inspyracyon he byleueth better the creature that wrote it then god hym self that inspyred yt If Tyndale wyll auoyde thys and say nay but I byleue better these men that wrote the tone of Enoch and Hely then I beleue thâ—se men that tell me the tother of our lady then muste Tyndale tell vs why he better byleueth those then these wherin what hath he to saye but that those that wrote it in the scrypture were inspyred of god and so he byleueth it as the worde not of men but of god Then answere we agayne that they that tell me the tother of our lady were inspyred of god and therfore it helpeth hym to byleue it as the worde not of menne but of god If he aske how shall he know that god inspyred the men that tell hym the tale of our lady we must aske hym agayne how knoweth he that god inspyred them that wrote the tale of Enoch or Hely If he say that he knoweth it bycause it is holy scrypture we then shall aske hym ferther how he knoweth that it is holy scrypture And then is he dreuen to the poynt that when he hath all doâ—â— he muste be fayne to fle to the chyrche and say that he knowâ—â—h â—â— by the chyrche And when he shall shewe you by whychâ— chyrche he knoweth it he muste nedys shew you some chyrchâ— whyche hym self â— may knowe for ellys how sholde any suche chyrche tell it hym as hym selfe knoweth not And when he sheweth you any knowen chyrche he is dowble confounded For bothe he destroyeth hys heresye that no chyrche sholde be byleued but electes and also shall be dreuen to confesse that he knoweth the scrypture by our chyrche that is to wyt Crystes catholyke chyrche whych he refuseth And then shall we ferther tell hym for hys thyrde confusyon that by the same selfe chyrche doeth he knowe that god hath inspyred that other artycle of our lady And yet for his fourth confusyon we shall tell hym ferther that the selfe same scrypture whyche hym selfe by the meane of the chyrches techynge byleueth to be the worde of god techeth hym also to byleue that thys thynge whyche yt byleueth of our lady is eyther good to byleue or at the lestewyse not euyll nor lyke smoke to sore eyes syth our sauyour hym selfe in the same scrypture sayth that the spyryte of god shall teche them all trouth and lede them into euery trouth and that for euer syth hym selfe there promyseth that he wyll not leue them but be wyth them for euer vnto the worldes ende And thus good crysten â—eaders ye se to what wourshypfull conclusyon wyth a fourfolde confusyon Tyndale hath brought hym selfe wyth layenge thys artycle wherby he wolde mynysshe the wourshyppe of our most blessed lady But lykewyse as he speketh here of the assumpcyon of our lady the bylefe wherof he wolde sholde seme to serue of nought the same sayth he in dyuerse places of the bylefe of the perpetuall vyrgynyte of our lady sayenge that it is nothynge pertaynynge to the saluacyon of our soule But I saye that the catholyke chyrche of Cryste byleueth that the bylefe therof beynge as it is and from the begynnyng hath ben taught by the holy goost so perteyneth to the saluacion of our soules that the contrary bylefe perteyneth to the dampnacyon of our soules yf heresye be dampnable And that thys is no new artycle well appereth by that that the olde holy doctour saynt Hierome so ferforth rekened it for heresye that he wrote an hole boke agaynste the olde heretyke Heluidius for the confutacyon of the heresye In which vertuouse boke saynt Hierom neyther proueth nor goeth aboute to proue her perpetuall vyrgiâ—yte by sâ—rypture but onely proueth that the places of scryptâ—re whyche â—â—â—â—â—dius brought forth for the contrary were not effectuâ—â—◠〈◊〉 proue hys malycyouse purpose agaynste the comen râ—â—â—â—ued fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche Agaynste whyche we may be very sure that the scrypture neuer speketh in dede how apparent so euer an heretyke make it seme For lykewyse as though a sophyster wolde wyth a fonde argument proue vnto a symple soule that two egges were thre bycause that there is one and there be twayne and one and twayne make thre that symple vnlerned man though he lakke lernynge to soyle his fonde argumeÌ„t hath yet wyt inough to laugh thereat and to ete the two egges hym self and byd the sophyster take and ete the thyrde So is euery faythfull man as sure in the syghte of hys soule how apparently so euer an heretyke argue by scrypture to the contrary that the comen fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche is out of questyon trewe and that the scripture vnderstanden ryght is neuer therto contrary syth he woteth well bothe by hys fayth and by the scrypture that the chyrche is taught hys fayth by god and hys holy spyryte accordynge to Crystes promyse that can neuer be false and woteth well also that god neuer techeth agaynste the trouth nor wryteth agaynst hys worde but that the contraryete that semeth arryseth of heretykes malycyouse soteltye or as holy saynte Austayne sayth for lakke of well vnderstandyng whych mysse vnder staÌ„dynge may sone mysse lede yâ— man whych lyst to leue the fayth of Crystes catholyque chyrche and lene to the doctryne of a false heretyque or to the lykynge his owne wyt But for bycause Tyndale wyll when we haue all sayed stykke styll at one poynt and aske vs what shall profyte his soule to byleue that our ladye is in heuen bodye and soule of whyche he playnely â—yleueth the contrary bothe for her bodye and her soule for he byleueth wyth Luther that all soules slepe and slepe shall tyll the daye of dome and wyll aske vs also what profyteth hym to byleue that our ladye was a perpetuall virgyne and neuer hadde chylde but Cryste syth none of those both articles is proued by playne scrypture and we myght be saued well inough though our ladyes body cam not in heueÌ„ tyll domes day also though she hadde mo sonnes then one and mo husbaÌ„des to I wyll aske hym then agayne what profyteth hym to byleue that our sauyour hym selfe dyed a virgyne and neuer had wyfe nor chylde syth that artycle is not proued by very playne
hym all theyr sacrameÌ„tes coude not for theyr fynall saluacyoÌ„ serue them But when they began lytell lytell to fall from that fayth and began to truste in the law the â—â—orkes of the law alone leuynge of thys poynt of fayth which was of the law sacramentes ceremonyes and all theyr bodyly workes the soule then went they wronge And that is â—he thynge whiche saynt Poule so sore reproueth in theyr tâ—ust coÌ„fydence to be saued by the workes of the law where as yf they had not lefte of the force strength of fayth both workes of the law and the ceremonyes to had stande them in â—tede of heuen And therfore thys nothyng toucheth the chyrch of Cryste when they put truste in the sacramentes for they do it not wythout the fayth that all the force and strength of them cometh of Crystes passyâ—n for thys they beleue and thys they teche And it is no dowte but that the iewes neuer knew the specyall sygnyfycacyoÌ„s of all theyr sacramentes sacryfyces ceremonyes other then grace remyssyon of synnes or peraduentuâ—â— that they were fygures tokeÌ„s of thynges that shold fall not yet perceyued by them as we know our sacramentes 〈…〉 sygnes of grace And it is vndowted that both they we â—hich in fayâ—h hope cheâ—yte do any such thyng as god 〈…〉 〈…〉 such fashyon as he byddeth vâ— all though we knowâ— not why he wyll be serued in suche wyse no more then Abraam knew why god bad hym to serue hym wyth the sacryfysynge of hys owne sonne yet is that doynge of that dede done in that wyse pleasaunt acceptable to god and profyte to maÌ„nes soule what so euer Tyndale tell vs and hys mayster Martine to frere Huskyn also and take theyr wyse wyues wyth them And therfore all thys tale of Tyndale agaynst the sacrament is not worth the leste fether of a wylde gose wynge But yet consyder one thynge by the way that ye mysse take hym not nor be not by a fayre word ledde out of your way He calleth the sacrament of the auter the sacrament of the bodye blode of Cryste in which wordes he calleth it well but yet meaneth he not so well therby as good crysten men do nor as hym selfe wolde seme to do For he meaneth not that there is the very body blode of Cryst in dede though he saye there is the sacrament therof For by that meaneth he nothynge ellys but onely a bare sygne and token and a memoryall therof For the great heretyke Thorpe in his examynacyon calleth the sacrament a ryght and by the same name that Tyndale now doth so that â— man wold at the fyrst heryng fynd no faute therin but mysse take hym for a good crysten man But afterward he declareth hym selfe well and clerely that he meaneth lyke a naughty heretyke as Tyndale doth also in sondry places of his boke For he saith the sacrameÌ„t sygne and token be but thre names of one thynge and that the sacrament of the auter is very brede styll And he mokketh at them that teache it to be the very body of our sauyour hym selfe and he is woode wyth them that do it any honour And so in this poynt concernynge the blessed sacrament of the auter Tyndale is yet a mych more heretyke then Luther is hym selfe in hys wrytynge all though in dede it appereth well that he ment as mych in the begynnâ—ng tyll he wythdrew hym selfe for enuye of other that hasted forward and set forth that heresye byfore hym And of trouth I am ryght credebly enformed by a very vertuouse man whom god hath of his goodnesse illumined called home agayn out of the darke Egypte of theyr blynd heresyes that at suche tyme as frere Barons and Tyndale fyrste mette talked to gether beyonde the see after that he fledde out of the fâ—eres where he was enioyned to 〈…〉 his penaunce after he hadde borne his fagot Tyâ—dale â—nd he were of sondrye sectes For frere Barons was of zwynglius secte agaynste the sacrament of the auter byleuynge that it is nothynge but bare brede But Tyndale was yet at that tyme not fully fallen so farre in that poynt but though he were badde inough bysyde was yet not coÌ„tent with frere Barons for the holdynge of that heresye But wythin a whyle after as he that is fallyng is sone put ouer the frere made the fole mad out ryght and brought hym blyndfelde downe into the depeste dongeon of that deuylysshe heresye wherin he sytteth now as faste bounden in the chayre of pestylence wyth the chayne of pertynacyte as any of hys vnhappy felowes And this I geue you knowledge of bycause I wolde not in any wyse that ye were deceyued wyth hym where he speketh well yet meaneth nought But now lette vs yet farther consyder well hys wordes Thus he sayth Tyndale All the ceremonyes and sacramentes that were from Adam to Cryste hadde sygnyfycacyons and all that are made mencyon of in the new testament More Uppon this he concludeth after that except baptysme the sacrament of the auter all the remanaunt be no trewe sacramentes for lakke of sygnifycacyons But ere he can so conclude he muste fyrste proue not onely that all the sacramentes and ceremonyes from Adam to Cryste hadde sygnyfycacyons but also that all those sygnyfycacyons were theÌ„ to the people knowen and vnderstanden For ellys though god dyd sette thynges to sygnyfye and to be done yet yf he commaunded them to do it and tolde them not the sygnyfycacyons but wolde leue them to be shewed and dysclosed at suche tyme afterwarde as it sholde lyke hym selfe it was no synne for them in the meane whyle to do the thynges that god bode them do but greate meryte to them though they vnderstode not what the thynges sygnyfyed that they dyd no more then my â—eruaunt that can no more but wryte is worthy rebuke and blame in the wrytynge of a latyn booke at my byddynge wherof he woteth not what any one worde meaneth Now that all the sygnyfycacyons of all the sacramentes and ceremonyes from Adam to Cryste were vnderstanden of the people that shall not Tyndale proue me though he shuld lyue as many yeres as were betwene the creacyoÌ„ of Adam the â—â—rth of Cryst And therfore as many yeres must he nedes haue alsoâ— ere euer hâ— make hys coÌ„clusion folow and hys argument good For yf god gaue them ceremonyes and sacrameÌ„tes wherof he gaue them not the sygnyfycacyons then so myghte he lykewyse gyue vs yf it so please hym to do And farther yf they by the doynge of those not vnderstanden ceremonyes and sacramentes in obedyence of his byddynge dyd not synne but deserued thanke all suche I saye as dyd them in dew fayth of saluacyon by Cryste that was to come then maye we also by the obseruynge of sacramentes and ceremonyes hauyng some sygnyfycacyons farther then we perceyue for one generall sygnyfycacyon of them all we knowe
Tyndale feleth neyther fayth lernynge reason wyt nor grace I alledged in my dialoge the wordes of saynte Pâ—ule to the Corynthies where he wryteth vnto them of the holy howsell As our lorde hath delyuered yt to me so haue I delyuered yt to you To this doth Tyndale answere thus Tyndale And wheÌ„ he alledgeth Paule to the Corinthies I say that Paule neuer knewe of this worde masse neither can any man gather therof any straunge holy gestures but the playne contrary and that there was no nother vse there then to breke the brede among them at soper as Crist dyd A and therfore he calleth it Cristes super and not masse More Here goth Tyndale aboute to iugle but his gallys be to greate I layed those wordes for none other cause but to proue that the apostle byfore his wrytynge taught them that great mystery by mouth and shewed them the manner hym selfe byfore his pystle writeÌ„ which he wold not haue wryten vnto them at all yf he myght then coÌ„ueniently haue ben present wyth them And now where I sayed that yt was well lykely that of saynt Poule by his present tradycyon was receyued holy gestures as the chyrche vseth in the consecracyon he answereth me that there is no suche thynge there spoken in the pystle whyche I sayed not there was but I saye that he fyndeth no worde in the pystâ—e that proueth that saynt Poule therin wrote euery thyng that he presently spake or dyd But yt appereth well that saynt Poule speketh of that thynge in that chapyter not to put in wrytynge all thynge that he hadde byfore tolde them by mouth but onely to put them in remembraunce that the thyng whyche they there receyued in the forme of brede though yt were called brede was yet in dede the very blessed bodye of Cryste And for the more clere profe therof he put them in remembrauÌ„ce that as he hadde byfore shewed them our sauyour hym self told hym so And this he remeÌ„bred them of by wrytyng to make them vse them self there after the more reuereÌ„tly For lakke wherof he wryteth to them that sykenesse and deth by the vengeaunce of god fell amonge them bycause they dyd not vse suche reuerence honour as they sholde do to the precyouse body and blessed blood of Cryste And in that chapiter saynt Poule speketh but of certayne vnreuerent poyntes in specyall and concludeth sayeng caetera autem quum venero disponam the remanaunt or all the other thynges I wyll my self order at my commyng Here may we se what so euer Tyndale saye that saynte Poule bysyde thys that he wrote of the sacrament gaue the people other tradycyons thereof by mouth as I sayde in my dialoge pâ—cteynynge to the reuerence and honour therof and Tyndale sayeth here the contrarye But now let the boke be iudge and by that chapiter iudge also the false fayth of Tyndale that sayth yt is synne to do any honour to yt And where Tyndale sayth that saynt Poule neuer know thys worde masse I byleue that well inough for I neuer herd that he spake any word of englyshe But that he knew not the thynge that englyshe men call the masse Tyndale hath not proued yet nor wyll not do this weke For he must proue yt better then by that saynte Poule spake of goddes supper For we call the howselynge of the people goddes borde and Crystes table and yet we know the masse to for all that besyde And the apostles them selfe I dowte not sayd masse many a tyme oft before any gospell wryteÌ„ And holy saynte Chrysostheme sayeth that the apostles in the masse prayed for all crysten soules where as I sayd that of the apostles tradicyon was lerned the maner of coÌ„secracyon yâ— answereth Tyndale in this wise Tyndale A great dowte as though we coulde not gather of the scrypture how to do yt More Surely men settynge no more therby then Tyndale and his felowes do may gather out of the gospell or the pystle eyther or out of what they wyll the maner of the consecracyon saynge of the masse that shall serue them self â— whyle they say yt they care not how byleue they care not what whyle they byleue yt to be none oblacyon hoste nor sacryfyce nor the body nor blood of Criste to be in the sacrameÌ„t nor that the masse doth any man good at all saue onely to the preste him selfe For what care they how they say masse whyche the more synfull they be and the more encombred coÌ„scyence that they haue the more encombred the more boldely as Luther byddeth in Babilonicaâ— presume they to goddes borde But vndouted who so haue a reuerent care therof and ryght fayth of the sacrament well perceyâ—eth that how to saye masse hathe ben taught the apostles by the spiryte of god and by the apostles forth And yf Luther frere Huskyn zwinglius Tyâ—dale and Lambert hadde neuer knowen it afore but shold haue taken the scripture in theyr handes and eche of them deuyse a maner of sayng masse by hym selfe I dare well saye for all Tyndales boste eche of them sholde haue deuysed a sondry fashyon and yet neuer one of the ryght For profe wherof Luther hym self castyng awaye the holy canon of the masse frameth after his fonde fashyon a maner of consecracyon and saynge of the masse in hys boke of Babilonica whyche folyshe inuencyon of hys Rosseus impugneth and playnely proueth that sauyng for the tradycyon of the chyrche Luther coulde neuer tell how or in what wyse to consecrate or saye masse and that the way that Luther deuyseth is vnsuffycyeÌ„t and vncertayne by Luthers awne rule And I doute not but that Tyndale hathe redde both Rosseus and Luther in those places and therfore I meruayle so myche the more that he dare be so bolde to saye yt when beynge hym selfe but Luthers scoler he seeth his mayster made a fole therin all redy where as I in my dialoge alledge that the preste in the consecracyon putteth water in to the wyne where as the scrypture speketh but of wyne therto answereth Tyndale thus Tyndale A great dowte also and a perilouse case yf yt were lefte out For eyther yt was done to slake the hete of the wyne or put to after a ceremonye to signifye that as the water is chaunged into wyne so are we chaunged thorow fayth as yt were into Cryste and are one wyth hym How be yt all is to theyr owne shame that ought sholde be done or vsed amonge vs crysten wherof no man wiste the meanynge For yf I vnderstode not the meanynge yt helpeth me not one corne .1 Corinth 14. and as experience teacheth But yf our sheperdes had bene as wyllynge to â—ede as to shere we hadde neded no such dispycyeÌ„ce ner they to haue burnt so many as they haue More where Tyndale sayth in skorne as he gladly scorneth alway when he speketh of the sacrament that yt were a great doute and a perylouse case to leue
go preache he wold make mych a do of his word byddynge theÌ„ go wryte But nowe ye shall se what answere he maketh what he bringeth for the shote ancre of all his shyfte to proue that they wrote euery necessary poynte Tyndale I answere that this precepte loue thy neyghbour as thy selfe and god aboue all thynge went wyth the apostles and compelled them to seke goddes honour in vs and to seke all meanes to coÌ„tinue the fayth vnto the worldes ende Now the apostles knew byfore that heresyes sholde come and therfore wrote that yt myght be a remedy agaynste heresyes as yt well appereth IohnÌ„ .xxi. where he sayth these are wryteÌ„ that ye byleue and thorow bylyfe haue lyfe And in the second of his first pistle he saith these I write bycause of them that deceyue you And Peter and Paule there to warne vs iÌ„ many place Wherfore it is manifeste that the same loue coÌ„pelled them to leue nothyng vnwriten that shold be necessarely requyred and that yf yt were lefte out sholde hurte the soule More Lo now haue ye herde his vttermost wherby he preueth vs that they wrote all to gether that is of necessite to be knowen whych he proueth not as ye se by any scrypture proper for the poynte as that any of them hadde any specyall commaundement to write but that theyr cheryte droue them to yt whyche he proueth by a deduccyon vppon this coÌ„maundement loue god aboue all thynge and thy neyghbour as thy selfe For theruppon as he deduced afore that women may synge masse and muste in tyme of nede so he deduceth now that the apostles were by the same cheryte dreuen by theyr wrytynge to prouyde agaynste heresyes whyche they saw sholde come and that coulde they not suffycyently do but yf they prouyded a lyke agaynste all heresyes ergo they wrote euery necessary trouth This argument is god wote full pore syke and sore myght syt at saynte Sauyons a beggynge wyth a dyshe and a clapper for any thynge that yt can helpe yt selfe yt is so blynde and lame lakketh so many lymmes yet hath it one the mo for me that Tyndale forgate to sette in But yet lakketh he bothe hys legges for all that and his yien and his handes and his brayne to For he muste sette in that they whych wrote knew well euery heresye that euer shold spryng after theyr days and this muste he proue by scrypture He muste also sette in that no mo of the apostles knewe that poynte but onely those that wrote or ellys that the tother coulde not wryte nor god coulde not teache them or fynally that eache of them redde others wrytynge and so saw that all was writen by theyr felowes then caried all theyr felowes writynge wyth them into the countres where them selfe preched and lefte yt there And this muste he proue me by scrypture for ellys he saueth not vpperyght the cheryte of saynte Andrew nor saynte Bartlemew that wrote nothynge at all nor of saynt Peter in wrytyng lesse then saynt Poule nor of saynt IohnÌ„ for leuynge out the consecracion at Crystes maundye He must also put in that they saw that wythout wrytyng god coude not kepe the poyntes of fayth amonge the people for ellys the cheryte strayned them not of necessyte so sore to put all togyther in wrytynge He muste also put in that all theyr wrytynge is kepte reserued saufe and euer shall tyll the daye of dome for ellys he seeth what foloweth And then knoweth he well that besyde corrupcyon of bokes myche therof is loâ—te but yf he wyll saye that in that scrypture was nothynge necessary but that it is in thys the remayneth And then must he proue me that by scrypture ere I beleue hym And ouer thys must he put in that they haue wryten all thynge as clere as they myghte haue done to answere all heretykes wythall for the thynge longed to cheryte to yf of cheryte theyr purpose was to wryte agaynste all heresyes And yet whyche I had almost forgoten he muste put in to thys argument also that they haue gyuen vs warnynge that they haue wryten all togyther that eyther than neded or at any tyme after shold nede to be byleued or done vppoÌ„ payne of dedely synne For thys is one of the very chyefe poyntes of all therfore thys muste he proue by scrypture For ellys they lefte vs in dauÌ„ger to byleue some other thynges mo then they wryte namely synnys the some wrote not so mych as theyr felowes sum confesse that they taught by mouth more then they wrote and some wrote nothynge at all and of that the other wrote good parte loste and of that wrytynge that remayneth some corrupted by writers some by prenters and mych so hard that no man vnderstandeth And fynally muste he put in to thys argument also that after theyr dayes Cryste wolde neuer shewe nor reuele any thynge to hys chyrche more nor byd any of them any other thynge byleue or do then was put in wrytynge all redy by hys apostles or ellys that though he wolde byd them any forther thynge at any tyme after eyther byleue or do yet wolde he neuer be angry wyth them though they wold neyther byleue that he told them nor do that he bode them but tell hym well and playnely to hys teth that yf he wolde be byleued or obayd he shold haue made his apostles wryte it Thys poynt specyally muste Tyndale amonge other proue me by playne and euydent scrypture For ellys were it ye wote well a great parell for any man to saye nay to goddys specyall byddynge though that specyall byddyng were not specyfyed in scrypture but yf god haue playnely spoken in scrypture that he wyll neuer whyle he lyueth eyther tell or bydde any other thynge then he hath all redy reueled or coÌ„maunded in scrypture Now se you good readers how syke how sore and how feble his argument is by whyche he wolde proue vs that the cheryte of the apostles droue them to put all necessary thynges in wrytynge But yet hadde there almoste one reason of hys passed me vnware whiche yf I hadde lefte vntowched Tyndale wolde haue sayed I hadde dissymyledâ— and lefte vnanswered his chyefe reason of all For where as his feble argument before touched was but the cause that droue the apostles to leue nothynge vnwryten he hath yet one that sheweth the cause why and wherfore god wolde hym selfe haue euery necessary thynge wryten and that ye wote well muste nedys be stronge and therfore what strength is in it ye shall here Thus he sayth Tyndale Now syr god hath made his lasie â—nd euerlastynge testament and no more byhynde then the apperynge of Cryst agayne And bycause he wyll not styrre vp euery daye a new prophete with a new myracle to coÌ„ferme new doctrine or to call agayne the olde that was forgoten therfore were all thynges necessary to saluacyon comprehended in scrypture euer to endure More If Tyndals bare worde be
but eyther Tyndales owne testament or the testament of hys mayster Antechryste And therfore that boke is coÌ„demned as it is well worthy and the condemnacyon therof is neyther openly nor pryuyly directely nor indirectely agaynst the worde of god nor tendeth not to the destruccion of the fayth but very coÌ„sonaunt wyth the worde of god auferte masum ex vobismet ipsis and greatly tendyng to the mayntenaunce of the fayth And concernynge that testament I haue both in my dialoge and in the secuÌ„de boke of thys wurke well proued this poynte wherunto when Tyndale weneth to fynde any farther defence let hym lay yt forth There is also no statute made by the chirch to forbyd any man to preache the worde of god hauyng no cause agaynst hym but theyr owne malycyouse suspycyon Nor god I dowte not wyll neuer suffer hys chyrche to fall so madde as to make suche a law If frere Barns fynde any law made of suche materâ— let hym reherse it and I waraunt you he shall fynde no suche wordes in it There is in dede a law made bothe by the chyrche and in thys realme by the parlyament to that no man shall be suffred to preache in any dyocyse agaynste the bysshoppes wyll And I wene that law be not agaynst goddes law nor agaynste reason neyther excepte eyther goddys lawe or good reason sholde suffer that one man sholde medle wyth another mannes charge magry his teeth to whom the charge bylongeth or ellys shold be suffred to sow shrewd seed of heresyes scysmes sedycyoÌ„s among the people fyrstâ— then be burned vp after at leysour Such folke I suppose were better prohybyted bytymes ere they be suffred longe to go forwarde to the parell of other mennes soules theyr owne to Such haue we had some prohybited here of late of whyche one was yet so sore set vppon euyll prechyng that after the prohybycyon abiuracyoÌ„ to yet wold he preche heresyes styll vntyll at the last god caused hym to be taken Tindals bokes with hym to both two burned togyder wyth more profyte vnto his soule theÌ„ had ben happely to haue lyued lenger after dyed in his bedde For in what mynde he sholde then haue dyed our lorde knoweth where as now we know well he dyed a good crysten man And when he wyste well his reuocacyon coude not saue his body yet reuoked he his heresyes and abhorred Tyndals bokes for to saue hys soule Now here serue well the wordes of saynte Austayne agaynst Barns whyche wordes Barns bryngeth for hym For when we here such a merceÌ„nary precher as these heretykes be for the tyme that we here them yf they say aught well and accordynge to the catholyke fayth as they can not for shame saye all nought at ones then take it But when we here them preache theyr owne heresyes for the rewarde of worldely prayse or delyte of theyr owne syngulare pryde and so seke theyr owne and not Crystes then here them not but putte them to sylence and prohybyte them to preache any more Thys allegorye wyll agre wyth the sayd wordes of saynt Austayne of Crystes wordes to And yet so mych the better in that these heretyques maye properly be called not onely mercennaryes of whom saynt Austayne speketh but also very scrybes and pharisees of wurse kynde then were those of whom Criste in that gospel speketh For these be false scribes that is to wytte wryters not wrytyng any trew bokes of scrypture but false gloses and contrary commentes vppon scrypture and erronyouse bokes of dyuelyshe heresyes dyuysed of they re owne frantyque braynes to the coloure wherof they abuse the scrypture and when they lyste they also denye the scrypture These be also the worst kynde of pharysees For these haue dyuyded them selfe not from the other people by any professyon of a more honest more vertuous lyuynge but haue dyuyded them selfe from the catholyque chirche of Cryste by abomynable heresyes and from all honeste people by the coÌ„tempte of all good wurkes and by the bestely professyon of freres nonnes lyuyng to gether in lechery preachyng theyr horedome foâ— honeste matrymony These be the thynges whyche we sholde not vouchsaufe to here these scrybes and theâ—e false pharysees preache For these be the deuyls deuyces and theyr owne For as for all that is preached consonaunte to the catholyque fayth ys very goddes law whyther yt be wryteÌ„ or not Nor saynt Austayn sayth not Here them in preachynge onely the scripture but goddes law he sayth wherein is comphended all that euer we be bouÌ„den to do or byleue wherof saynt Austayn doth hym selfe confesse that dyuerse thynges are vnwryten as for ensample the perpetuall virgynyte of our blessed ladye whyche who so byleueth not bycause yt is not wryten saynt Austayne calleth a falsâ— heretyque in hys boke wryten vnto Quod vult deus And so doth saynte Hierome to in hys boke agaynste Eluidius And all such thynges be therfore partes of the plantes whyche the father of heuen planteth by hym selfe hys apostles his holy spiryte and his owne sonne abydynge in hys chirche whyther they be wryten or not And thus ye se good reders that neyther those wordes of Cryste nor of saynt Austayne neyther do proue that the apostles haue lefte all necessarye thynges in wrytynge And therfore though Barns was so fonde to brynge in that text for this purpose yet Tyndale perceyued well that yt wold not serue and therfore lefte yt out yet layeth frere Barns a nother texte for thys purpose the wordes of saynt Poule wryten vnto Timothe the .iii. chapyter of the .ii. pystle where saynte Poule wryteth vnto hym in thys wyse Abyde thou in those thynges that thou hast lerned and that are betaken to the knowynge of whoÌ„ thou haste lerned them and that from thyn infancye thou haste knowen holy scrypture whyche maye instructe the to helth by the fayth that is in Cryste Iesu. All scrypture inspyred of god is profytable to teche to reproue to correcte to teache men in iustyce that the man of god maye be perfayte instructed to euery good worke I haue rehersed you saynt Poules wordes more full theÌ„ doth frere Barns bycause ye maye haue some gesse why he lefte the remanauÌ„t out For he reherseth no more but that the chyrche muste neyther make law nor statute nor nothynge do but onely preache and mynyster the worde of god and that nothynge addynge nor mynysshynge but as Poule sayth to Timothe abyde in those thynges that they haue lerned and that be commytted vnto them Now se ye well that saynte Poule speketh nothynge to Timothe agaynst addynge oâ— any good order or statute in hys chyrche but byddeth hym abyde faste by those thynges that he hath lerned of hym and that he hath lerned in scrypture ioynynge to the scrypture alwaye the ryght fayth of Cryste whyche he had lerned of saynt Poule And therfore agaynste makynge of any law thys texte serueth frere Barons a strawe
whyche she hadde ben accustomed no daye myssynge to do seruyce from whyche she well knewe that holy sacryfyce to be dyspensed by whyche the oblygacyon that made agaynst vs was cancelled and by whyche was led as a captyue in triumphe that ennemy of ours that kepeth a rekenynge of our synnes and sekynge what he myght obiecte coulde in hym nothynge fynde in whom we haue had the vyctoryâ— who can shed hym agayne an innocent blood for hys who can restore hym agayne the raunson that he redeined vs wyth To the sacrament of whych raunson of ours thyne hand mayde hath bouÌ„de her soule with the bonde of fayth Let no man pull her froÌ„ thy proteccyoÌ„ Let neyther the lyon nor the dragon neyther byforce nor by false sleyght steppe in betwene her and the. She shall not answere that she oweth the naught lest she be therin conuynced and cast and that therby her suttle accuser get her But she shall answere that her dettes be forgyueÌ„ her whom no man is able to paye that he payed for vs when he owed naught for hym selfe In peace mote she be therfore and her husbonde to a fore whom and after whom she neuer maryed non whom she lyke a seruaunt obeyd bryngynge frute to the thorow her pacyent sufferaunce that she myght therby wynne hym to the to Inspyre good lorde my god inspyre thy seruauntes my bretherne thy chyldren my lordes whom both wyth worde and herte and wrytynge I serue that as many as rede thys may remember at thyn aulter thy seruaunt Monica with Patricius somtyme her husbande by whose flesh thou haste brought me into thys lyfe I can not tell howe Make them remember wyth a deuoute assercion them that were in thys transytory lyfe my father and mother vnder the my father and my mother the catholyke chyrche where my syster and brother and in the eternall Hierusalem shall be my neyghbours and cytesens whyche Hierusalem thy people from theyr goynge forth tyll theyr commyng home in all theyr pylgrymag longeth for and sygheth Good lord graunte thys that the thynge whych was the laste that euer she desyred of me she may the more plentuously obteyneâ— by the prayours of many mo The olde holy doctour saynte Chrysostome in his home lye wherin he sheweth that almes dede masses and diriges greatly profyte them that are dede among many other thynges wryteth in thys wyse It was not for naughte ordeyned by thapostles that in the dredfull mysteryes of the masse sholde commemoracyon be made for them that be dede For thapostles knewe that thereby cometh to the soules great auauntage and profyte For when all the people standeth to gether holdynge vppe theyr handes and the preste fulfyllâ—th hys obseruaunce and that dredfull sacrifyce set forth how can yt be but that then praynge for the soules â—e shall obteyne Now se you very playne good cristen readers that of the eldeste and the very beste that euer haue wryten vppon the scrypture of god in Crystes chirche and whyche bene holy sayntes in heuen and suche as sufferd persecucyon for goddes sake do testyfye for our parte that the thynges whych the catholyke chirche vnyuersally â—yleueth and vseth are nothynge to be douted of but to be byleued and vsed whyther they be founden in scrypture or not And ye se that they saye that the apostles taught and delyuered to the chyrche dyuerse thynges by mouth bysyde all that they wrote whyche thyng saynt Poule sayth also hym self and yet bysyde that we se that of his wrytynge there is parte soste ye se also that some suche thynges as Tyndale sayeth that the popes haue oflate fayned them selfe for theyr lucre as the masse and the paynes of purgatory both saynte Austayne and saynte Chrysostome and other holy sayntes saye that the thynges were byleued vsed and taught by the apostles them selfe 〈◊〉 as for the olde holy doctours ye se howe farre they 〈◊〉 Tyndale and therfore of Tyndale or theym byleue whom ye lyke â—este for me and consyder well wyth your selfe wyth whyther of those two were surer to sende your soules yet is there as old as any that I haue rehersed yet saynt Polycarpus the dyscyple of saynte IohnÌ„ whyche wrote a boke of the tradycyons geuen vnto the chyrche by the apostles whyche wolde playnely haue proued Tyndale a fole and a lyar both yf the boke hadde not ben loste And vndoutely god wolde neuer haue sufferd yt to be loste yf he coulde not haue kepte hys tradycyons without wrytynge How be yt what nede we better or elder then as I byfore haue sayde the authoryte of saynte IohnÌ„ hym selfe in hys laste chapyter of the gospell Many thynges were done that are not writen in this boke or of saynt Poule wrytyng hym selfe to the Corynthyes All other thynges I wyll ordeyne when I come my selfe and to the Thessalonycenses kepe you my preceptes or institucyons whych I haue geuen you eyther by worde or by my pystle By whych wordes yt appereth well that he had wryten vnto them byfore that then was holy scrypture and yet hadde â—en yf yt hadde ben kepte and preserued and was not wythout good thynges therin and necessarye wherof parte may be suche thynges as the heretykes now do barke at bycause the pystle is loste But god is not loste that preserueth styll the mater though he lette go the letter Saynte Poule also to Timothe wryteth of such vnwryten tradycyons well and playnely in his secunde pystle in these wordes Thou therfore my son Timothe be comforted in the grace that is Cryste Iesu and those thynges that thou haste herd of me by many wytnesses commyte theym vnto faythfull men such as shal be mete to teche them forth to other men Those wordes of saynt Poule do very playnely shew that some thynges there were whyche saynt Poule taught Timothe and that in presence of certayne good vertues wytnesse and whyche thynges were as saynt Ambrose sayth secrete mysteries whych thynges he there coÌ„maunded Timothe to commytte also to other faythfull men suche as shold be able and mete to teche to th entent that they myght teche the same thynges farther and whiche be some of such thynges as these heretyques now barke at that are comen fro mouth to mouth and from hande to hande from the apostles dayes vnto our owne It is a myche lesse thynge also to byleue our selfe to be bounden to do a thynge of necessyte wythout authoryte of scrypture then to thynke our selfe wythoute scrypture vnbounden and in no necessyte to do the thynge whyche we fynde commaunded in scrypture But we fynde commaunded in scrypture fyrst by the law of nature and after in the law wryten the olde law wyth a cause annexed for vyolatyng of nature and after agayne by the apostles as I haue rehersed in the new law the .xv. of the actes that men sholde abstayne from strangled and from bloode of whyche coÌ„maundement in scrypture we se no dyscharge but the custome of the catholyke chyrch yet hath Tyndale
hys owne holy spyryte shall dwell therwyth all dayes vnto the worldes ende then be we sure not onely whyche are the holy scryptures and the sure holsome exposycyons therof but also whych are the tradycyoÌ„s delyuered vnto the chyrche by god of whythe some were delyuered by the apostles them selfe and some by hys holy spyryte synnes And what so euer Tyndale bable to the contrary god is yet at as mych lybertye to teache hys chyrche forther what trouth he wyll hereafter and to delyuer it what tradycyon he wyll hereafter and to commaunde hys hole chyrche to byleue and obaye hym therm as well I saye hereafter as euer he was before For I wolde fayne wytte of Tyndale yf the hole chyrch shall neuer byleue nor do nothynge as of necessyte but that is all redy wryten in scrypture why shall any one man be bounden to byleue or do any thynge as of necessyte though god byd hym by mouth yf it be not wryten in scrypture And yf he wyll saye no more maye any one man be boundeÌ„ neyther then putteth he away quyte all reuelacyoÌ„s whych I neuer herd any man hytherto deny but that god maye reuele and man be bounden to byleue and obaye And surely yf he graunte that any one man maye be bounden therto so maye then for aught that I can se or aught that he can saye the hole chyrche in lyke wyse Fynally there is no dowte but that ere the new testameÌ„t was wryten men were bounden to byleue thynges without scrypture And then syth Tyndale wyll nothynge byleue vs wythout scrypture and he maye not loke of reason that we sholde any more byleue hym wythout scrypture then he vs let Tyndale now tell me therfore by whyche texte of scrypture in all that is wryten is that bond releaced and dyscharged And where are we eyther commaunded or lycenced nothyng to byleue but yf it be conteyned in that scrypture that is now wryten whyche thynge yf he can not shewe â—as he can not in dede then abydeth that bond styll to byleue the thynges that the catholyke chyrche techeth vs as the worde of god to be byleued and yet vnwryten as the same bonde stode and bounde vs before to byleue those necessary thynges that now be wryten Now yf Tyndale answere thys argument and saye that he nedeth not to laye forth any texte of scrypture dyschâ—rgynge vs of that bonde but that it is inough for hym to proue that all thynge that is of necessyte is by the apoâ—â—â—es wryten and that no suche thynge as we be bounden to â—â—leue or do is by them selfe vnwryten yf Tyndale answere vs thus then is he but wheâ—e he was For then shall we yet agayne do as he nedys muste and neuer may brynge in one texte of scrypture by whyche he maye proue that all suche thynges be wryten whyche thynge when he can not do yf he wyll then be playne and confesse the trouth that he can not proue hys owne parte but wyll then byd vs proue our owne parte and wyll tell vs that lyke as he sayth that the apostles dâ—d put all in wrytynge wherof he fayleth hys profe so we saye that they dyd leue dyuers thynges vnwryten and that of those be some of such thynges as the chyrche now byleueth and obserueth that are not wryten in scrypture and wyll byd vs go proue hym that for our parte and wyll saye that ellys he is no more bounden to byleue vs then we be to byleue hym yf Tyndale wyll as I saye confesse the trouth that he can not proue hys owne parte and therfore wyll byd vs go proue ours then shall we tell hym that we proue oures by the manyfolde playne textes of holy scrypture afore remembred bothe of saynt JohnÌ„ of saynt Poule myghte yet adde dyuers other wyth whyche Rosseus an englysshe man hath longe a go proued that poynte vnto Luther and that so clerely that as Tyndale knoweth Luther was neuer able to answere one worde agayne And I saye ferther that we proue our parte that is to wyt that the apostles gaue thynges vnto the chyrche wythout wrytynge whyche haue in the chyrche contynued besyde the scrypture thys I saye we proue to Tyndale by the selfe same meanys by whyche Tyndale proueth vs that he knoweth the scrypture to be the scryptureâ— For yf he wyll saye as he sayeth in hys boke agaynste meâ— that he knoweth the scrypture by the same meanes that the eagle knoweth her byrdes meanyng that as she knoweth theÌ„ by a secrete inwarde instincte of nature so he knoweth the scrypture by a secrete inwarde instyncte of the spiryte of god I saye that we know the tradycyons taught by god and hys apostles by the same secrete inwarde instyncte of the same spiryte But then saye we farther that the same spiryte dyd teache the chirche to know whych was the very scrypture byfore it dyd teche yâ— Tyndale And Tindale had not byleued that the scrypture was the scrypture yf the chirche hadde not tolde hym so Nor the holy spyryte hadde not wrought wyth Tyndale towarde the bylyefe therof yf Tyndale when the chyrche tolde hym so hadde done as he doth sette the chyrche at nought For synnes that he so hath done he not onely byleueth not the tradycyons of god geuen to his chyrche by his apostles and his worde vnwryten but also byleueth lesse of the scrypture then he dyd byfore And I saye that god by hys worde vnwryten dyd teache his chyrche to know his wordes wryten and his tradycions also whyche he taught the chyrche by his apostles and made the chyrche agre therin by his spyryte whiche maketh men of one mynde and one custome in the chyrche and whyche spiryte kepeth both the wordes wryten and the wordes vnwriten in perpetuall knowledge and obseruaunce in his chyrche accordynge as the very worde of god vnwryten that is hys naturall worde of hym selfe bygoten seeth necessarye abydynge wyth his chirche for euer accordynge to his owne promyse And now if Tyndale aske with which chyrche I saye wyth hys catholyque chyrche wyth hys chirche in whyche onely chirche he wurketh miracles wyth his chirche whyche he commauÌ„deth men to here and obay and fynally wyth the same chirche by whyche chirche Tyndale lerned to know whych is the scripture whych chirch lette Tyndale tell me why he shold not as well byleue when yt telleth hym these thynges the apostles dyd teache and dâ—lyuer wythout wrytynge as he byleueth yt when yt telleth hym these bokes the apostles dyd wryte If nothynge hadde be wryten Tyndale muste haue byleued the chirche in all to gether And why sholde he now for the wrytyng of parte for that all is wryten ye se well he can not proue byleue the chyrch the lesse in the remanaunt that remayneth yet vnwryten or for that that was wryten at one tyme byleue the chyrche the lesse in all that yt teacheth after vnwryten whyche thynge Tyndale doth and that so farre forth that where as god worketh mirycles