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book_n	aaron_n	call_v	order_n	16	3	5.5566	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45157	A second discourse about re-ordination being an answer to two or three books come out against this subject, in behalf of the many concern'd at this season, who for the sake of their ministry, and upon necessity, do yield to it, in defence of their submission / by John Humfrey, min. ; together, with his testimony, which from the good hand of the Lord, is laid upon himself, to bear, in this generation, against the evil, and to prevent, or repress (as much as by him may be possible) the danger, of the imposition.	Humfrey, John, 1621-1719.	1662 (1662)	Wing H3709; ESTC R9881	127,714	152

about it it appears to me that both what this author sayes may be fully answered and what I have is for the main not touched or in the weight not impaired I can but be sorry my ability hath been no more to serve those I have desired and be content such as I have to lay out yet once more in their behalf and my own though I must needs say with such a heavie and weakned spirit in good earnest that I have more need to crave their prayers unto God and be supported my self then to offer fresh support and furthersatisfaction to others He giveth power to the saint and to them that have no might he encreaseth strength A hard task it is upon me unto him I look up and I cannot well tell from whence to derive my discourse which is sure to meet with so much prejudicate interest and opinion It is Custom I know and the common apprehension that rules the many and while their heads run shallow it is not enough for a man to embark in a sound bottom unlesse we have something of the tide also and stream with us I remember what a strange thing the Antipodes seem to Lactantius as others of the Fathers and to beleeve any habitable land beyond the Ocean was to the antient Clemens another world 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is enough certainly to make truth it self seem a crime if it appears but singular and if Paul himself but offers to bring some new thing they will determin it before-hand to be babbling though it was the spread doctrine of the Christian Religion And yet is not this all but there are the several engagements of mens spirits and concernments to bee met with also wherein one must look to run the fate of such who are engaged in arbitrations who when they have most carefully discharged their trust doe reap but ill will on both sides and only have left them the testimony of their own conscience that though both parties that are extream be displeased yet both have cause to be content Hee persued and possed safely even by the way that he had not gone with his feet There is a School adage well applyed to the Intellect Intus existens prohibet alienum and I perceive indeed here that the common notion which lies upprrmost hath so filled the minds of most that Orders makes us Ministers which should bee rightly understood and that we are Ministers already that they have no thoughts hardly left them free born for the discussion of this matter It is besides the Original humour of man to be apt to think of himself more high then he ought to think as the Apostle speaks and not soberly according to the measure God hath dealt him and hereupon is the Ordainer ready to beleeve that in Orders he conferrs no lesse then the holy Ghost it self his grace or gifts or the spiritual power at least of the Ministry which all are indeed the prerogative I take it alone of Jesus Christ and does argue both the pride of some mens understandings that dare assume so much without Gods word and the lownesse of others to take it up upon trust as if our Protestants all as well as the Papists were of that opinion A large presumption that lying at the bottom of this dispute does require some of our first and most serious thoughts about it as introductory to our businesse I said I will answer also my part I also will shew my opinion To fetch this matter from the beginning Let us look unto the Priests under the Law and observe what God almighty hath said in the first place Exod. 29.9 The priests office shall be Aarons and his sonnes for a perpetual statute I gather from hence that the Right power dignity office of Priesthood did flow immediately upon the priests under the law from this statute which is undoubtedly Gods will appointing of it If the spiritual power or authority of the priest as our Book of Orders calls us came only by such a delegation that conveighes the same through mans hands then was the priests under the law no priests or had no power for they were not ordained priests but born priests and this right and power of priesthood was theirs we see expresly by this statute for ever We read indeed of the priests sanctifying themselves often to some particular work as to carry the Ark to cleanse the Sanctuary and the like but we read not that they were to be consecrate to their office as I yet finde We read indeed that the high Priest as he succeeded was to be consecrate and annointed and so Aarons garments were kept on purpose but forasmuch as this dignity it self of the high priesthood came also by birth it is apparent that their annointing and consecration did not give them their right and office but only solemnize and confirm it as princes who are so by birth cannot have the regal office conveighed but declared and ratified by their inauguration As for the rest of the priests we read of one consecration only by Moses at once for all of them Lev. 8. Exod. 29. And certainly we may conceive if God did intend that the Ministerial power should be conveighed ordinarily through the hands of man any otherwise then as the signifiers of his will then should not one consecration it is like have sufficed for all but he would have commanded every one of them to be particularly consecrate or set apart for the receiving that power by man in their generations Besides when Aarons sonnes are consecrate at once by Moses this is all you shall find in it An Investiture by several ceremonies you may see Lev. 8. which all are manifestly without the least word or form of conferring power by the way onely of external solemnization and an Attonement made by sacrafice for them because else they might not approach the holy God in their fins and therefore is is said This shalt thou do to hallow them to minister in their office Exod. 29.1 It is not said This thou shalt do to give them their office Their office was conferred by Gods appointment and the hallowing them is only to the work that they might stand before the Lord to execute their service in the holy place And now let us come to look also under the Gospel All power sayes Christ is given me in heaven and earth Go preach and baptize Here we see from whence the authority of the Ministry is derived and that is from him only who is the Master of discipline and fountain of power And does he say this to his Apostles only No it followes And lo I am with you alway even to the end of the world Again when he ascended and gave gifts to men as he gave some to be apostles so he gave some to be pastors and teachers Eph. 4 It is he then gives the office putting us in the Ministry as Paul speaks 1 Tim. 1.12 In Mat. 9.38 It is the father

in the sanctifying or separating a person to him without reference at all otherwise to the Church or people As for this though the thing be conspicuous in its own nature and solemnity let us suppose untill it appears farther it were so and then must we take into consideration what this separating or sanctifying a man unto God is Under the Law it is plain there were sacrafices appointed and by these the Priests and Levites were clensed that they might draw nigh to God Under the Gospel there is no Sacrafice but only there are Prayers and consequently the commending a man to the grace of God for his work by Prayer is all that sanctification there can be in this matter and as for the imposition of Hands it self it is nothing but the expresse designation of the person upon whose head we crave the discention of his blessing To which purpose Calvin in his institutions tell us that this rite was taken from Jacobs blessing his Grand-children which was by Prayer Gen. 48.15 16. And Grotius is quoted by Mr. Stilling fleet speaking about the Jews ordaining their Elders Epi. ad Gal. Tunc orabant ut sic Dei efficacia esset super illum sicut manus efficaciae Symbolum ei imponebatur By this Dei efficacia we must not understand the authority or power of the Ministry as if in our taking Orders we did pray to God to give us that as my Antagonist thinks strangely often for Grotius himself in his Book de Imp. before quoted acurately tells us that comes not by Orders Christ 〈◊〉 procul dubio is est à quo jus illud praedicandi sacrament a exhibendi clavibus utendi oritur vim suam accipit but we must understand thereby the solemn invocation of the divine presence and assistance to be upon or with the person upon whom the hands are laid to use the words of that Learned Author which may be repeated I hope if need be without question To proceed here while we are upon it In a form of Church policy presented in a Convention at Edenbourgh anno 1560. I read in Spotswood p. 156. Other ceremonies then the publick approbation of the people and the declaration of the chief Minister that the person there presented is appointed to serve that Church we cannot approve for albeit the Apostles used imposition of hands yet seeing the miracle is ceased the using the ceremony we judge not to be necessary In another anno 1578. presented to the Parliament Ordination is the separation and sanctifying of the person appointed by God and the Church after he is well tryed and found qualified The ceremonies are Fasting Prayer and Imposition of hands of the Eldership p. 292. This notion of Ordination is that I suppose is like to passe with the Presbyterian and perhaps one may think though a double approbation or declaration draws in it no absurdity yet a Consecration of a thing or person to the Lord more then once may seem hainous Let us know therefore that there is really no more in the thing under this conception then under the other This Learned man my Adversary himself does well quote Mason and another who holding with him that the Office of a Bishop and Presbyter is the same differing only gradu not ordine answer their new investiture with this that our Church calls it not an Ordering but Consecration so that a double Consecration in the same Office is not to be accounted belike any matter they themselves being judges The Temple under the Law we find new consecrated by Hezekiah The Priests at the same time do new consecrate themselves 2 Chron. 29.30 34. In the Gospel too we read again of Festum Encaeniorum Jo. 10.22 But there is one instance alone does satisfie me in this thing beyond exception and that is of Solomon whom we read not only to be annointed which is consecrated but it is said expresly to the Lord that makes it sacred a second time If there was any native evil or absurdity in the thing it self to have a double consecration or investiture unto the same Office or work how comes this to passe that holy David and his most wise Son with the Fathers and Elders of all Israel should make no scruple at all at it There is this one Text much wanting therefore in my former sheets which I now offer further to my case 1 Chron. 29.22 where I note three things 1. That Ordination makes a man a Minister I count as they are said in the words to make Solomon King We none deny but Orders make a Minister only let it be understood from hence Perfectivè Complementally by way of Declaration or Solemnization 2. That a double investiture or consecration to the same Office is expresly exemplified in Scripture for which I quote this place and why it should be more to be Re-ordained then Re-annointed no Protestant I believe can tell So that where I have compared Ordaining in my Book still to a double Marrying I wish I had rather put in Annointing to make the simile the more sure 3 That it is probable what Mr. Rosse Pans p. 8. tell us that this Zadock was High-priest at the end of Sauls reign but David favouring Abiathar preferred him and retained them both and consequently that he was annointed the second time Priest as Solomon the second time King So I close my first generall And they made Solomon King the second time and annointed him to the Lord to be chief Governour and Zadock to be Priest SECTION III. FOr the second generall The Form which the Bishop uses I will confesse it freely to be so compiled to the ordinary conception of Orders as is most proper for such as are made ex non Ministris Ministri as he speaks yet let not my tender Brethren be troubled at this seeing that hinders not but it may serve too for those that are only declared to be Ministri and confirmed or regularly legally canonically made what they were truly in the sighs of God before It is the offence of mens minds makes this so grievous There is no Ordination indeed is any more then a Declaration and Allowance before the Church of a mans call from God and let a man read the Forme quite over one may rather wonder at it as a happinesse there is no more incongruity to our case then complain there is so much as if it were compiled with some tender regard hereto that if any were ordained before as beyond Sea otherwise they might not scruple for all that if they thought good to submit to it The words Ordered and Admined is the worst this sober man himself can pick out which when I see in the instruments of our Orders as it were purposely interpreted for us secundum ritus Ecclesiae Anglicanae admissimus Legitimè Canonicè ordinavimus I cannot but conclude what I have said and say that it is well this form indeed is no worse I mean more improper seeing

humbly lay two charges upon them The first is that they do throughly ponder the Book of Orders and every thing besides that will be required of them before-hand and if they be not perswaded in their minds that it is lawful for them let them not do i● I charge them for the worl● I will not be guilty of wounding their Souls but tell them if they do it and doubt if they act not in faith it is sin unto them that is sure The second then is if they be satisfied themselves that yet if they do but imagine any of their Brethren like to follow them wi●h a Conscience unsatisfied they take special care to prevent it which else doth put in a barr to them whereas if they go to them and satisfie them with their reasons or else warn them to forbear so that they understand from them that they are not like to do it for their example till satisfied the passage is open And let them then be sure they have a sincere heart in the main I humbly hope as they act in faith so they may with co●fort an● success And the Priest said unto them go in peace befo●● the Lord is your way wherein you go SECTION VIII IN my fourth Section I come to a second Objection Ordination is that which according to Divines does give the Ministerial Offices This is the end they account hereof Now when a man is a Minister already there is not this end and consequently the Ordinance taken in vain Thus have I laid it down and my Answer to it is this There is more ends than one in Ordination as in Baptism and other Institutions It is not necessary to the using an Ordinance that a man be capable of all its ends but of some right end of the same We have had the Objection in hand before as the main Argument of this Authors Book and there you have therefore my full and compleat Answer to it That which I have to do here is only the maintaining this present Solution Unto which then thus he replies We grant this but then a man must take it in such a form of words as is expressive only of that end whereof he is capable As in Aged Marriage the Prayer for Issue must not be used But let this Gentleman hold a little for he goes on upon a supposal that in our Orders there are Prayers put up for us to be made Ministers to use his own words p. 68. which if it vvere true it would indeed be just alike with us here as to pray for the blessing of Children upon a cou●le that are pass'd it But he may soon know the Church hath no such odd Prayer inconsistent with the reason of the form it self He adds One that is ordained already and so a Minister may be ordained again in order to the free exercise of his Ministry but not ordained with that Ordination whose chief end it to give the Ministerial Commission and Authority Unto this as his whole strength I have spoken at first in my two generals about the form and supposition of the nature of Orders That I have now to take notice of and cannot pass without injury both to ingenuity and my self is the Candour and Integrity of my A●versary He is pleased to grant me here the Question I dispute for My Question is Whether and how a Minister ordained by the Presbitery may take Ordination also by the Bishop and I determine it though he cannot be ordained again to his Ministry he may as to the free use of it in the English Church Now my Adversary does directly yield this I desire If my Brethren to see and own it Nevertheless in th● q●●stion included how this may be done he is a ●i●tle more ●●iff than I am He supposes the form that is used is impro●er to our case I have therefore proposed my Desire p. 92 in my sheets for another Thus we agree still but then w● part here if this cannot be had he thinks the substance unlawful for the shadows sake and I am apt to think that for the substance sake being lawful the shadow may be born if indeed it cannot be help'd I proceed The common and general and of Baptism was for remission of sinns yet was Jesus Christ baptized who was not capable of that end He answers Let Mr. H. if he can prove that in the Baptism of Christ any words were used by John expressive of such an end as Christ was not capable of But what a poor come off is this when he hath spoken so like a Scholar and judicious man besides That Christ was baptized we know That Baptism was for remission of sinns whereof Christ was uncapable we know likewise and consequently that an Ordinance may be used by a man who is not capable of its grand end but some other is proved But with what form of words whether any or none John baptized Jesus with neither I nor he do know I argue then from what I know This Author answers in what he does not know and that is very neer he knows not what to answer And here I find next he hath made a great skip for when I have said there are more ends than one in Orders I open my self Ordination gives a man his Commission according to others and installs him in it it makes a man a Minister and also signifies him to be such before men it gives the Office and also makes him received at such in the Church where he is sent It is true a man who is ordained already is not capable of the one end but he is of the other He that was a Minister before cannot be made so now as to have the Office given him but he may have the same Office declared or signified I hope more then once as in the Inauguration of Princes when there is need for the better execution thereof and acceptation with the people This my Opponent should not have pasied as also that I am wary still of the first of these ends to say I do suppose it only and not grant it It may suffice that I have in my first work maintained my question notwithstanding that supposition without which many of my Brethren perhaps would scarce have received it into their thoughts to digest it But now the light I will conceive may have broken in at least something upon their minds through the cranies I have there I may follow the same here more o●enly and if this Supposition also belaid aside there is no remora lest in the business But to follow him where he please he produces after this my chief Instance which is such I must confess that I dare a●one venture all my whole Cause upon it Paul is made a Minister by Christ himself Act. 26.16 17 18. yet was he Ordained af●er by the hands of men Act. 13. These words of mine he quotes where I shall take in by the way a passage from Chemnitius upon the same

in the nature of the thing it self and yet so long as this particular reason could not endure any longer than the interval wherein Baptism was administred into Christ to come which is now ceased I am not Trapan'd into Re-baptization as this man Non satis quidem ingenuo vultu does speak but may dis-approve of the same now together with the Catholick Church as well as any other Arg 9. From Christs own Re-ordaining his Apostles To this he speaks p. 111. ad 115. And this indeed I do stand upon and have there fully already prevented all that I think can be opposed and what he hath else may pass only for illustration I suppose he himself will not expect I should add any more See p. 76. ad 80. Arg. 10. From the double 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 upon Timothy mentioned in two Texts in the two Epistles Upon which this Author hath spoken methinks so setly gravely and deliberatively that all I can say is that he hath made me to believe something more probable of that which I took before as possible only And as for the two Authorities of mine he farther quotes here in the end I have not the Books at hand where I am to examine them This he discourses p. 116. ad 122. Where he ends his Animadversions After all then in both these Authors there is the Objection of the Covenant which though I would fain wave as extrinsical to Re-ordination it self for my own part being not concerned in it yet does it still recurr to my mind so that I doubt I shall hardly be found faithful to my Brethren in the Case if I speak not something at least to that also before I leave Unto this therefore I t is considerable first whether that which is said ordinarily by the Presbyterian that the Bishop does not Ordain quâ Prelate but quâ Presbyter See 1 Tim. 4.14 express with 2 Tim. 1.6 or quâ President at most of that Presbytery is not only that which is true but gives allay also to this matter If it does not or not what is sufficient yet taking this in however let us know next There are some things which may be unlawful at one time to do or to be done and at another be unlawful to be omitted and not done Let me ask a person every way else disposed whether he does not think it his duty to follow his Ministry and unlawful for him to forsake the same were it not for this only If he thinks so it follows that though so long as he could use his Ministry without Episcopal Orders he might judge himself bound against taking of them Yet now when without these Orders he cannot use his Ministry if the times prove indeed still so hard and so to refuse the same is by consequence to do that which he judges as to him is sin to wit the quitting the Ministry he is engaged in Here if he thinks that he stands bound by his Covenant still supposing him satisfied of Re-ordination otherwise for therefore do I put this Objection last when all else is done he makes that sacred Engagement intended by him only to Piety to become to him a Bond of Iniquity in which case I think all Divines are clear in their Solution The matter of an Oath no doubt must be a thing lawful if a thing then lawful to be done or omitted before become now unlawful the matter of the Oath does cease and cessante materia cessat obligatio I dare not tender this but with all due serious caution tenderness and submission Let the concern'd look more to it In his fifth Chapter he hath liberally proposed his Concessions which above all he hath besides is worthy to be regarded He will yield to Examination from 1 Pet. 3.15 To the Bishops Approbation upon the same To a Licence from Act. 21.37 39. To a Benediction from Act. 20 32. To Imposition of hands as a Sign of consent Levit. 24.14 And all this both upon a mans undertaking a new Charge and also upon the dissolution of his legal title in the same Nay let me add his own words in the cloze There is nothing that I can devise about Re●ordination in thesi the Right Reverend Bishop can demand but it shall be yielded except only the formal investiture with Ministerial Power Loe here how frankly he deass with us which cannot but bring to mind what the former Author hath yielded also before him who in the fourth page of his Book will first like well of a Confirmation of our first Orders as being not exactly Canonical And secondly Not dislike a second Ordination 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the Bishop upon the remove of a man unto a new Charge Upon which if this fresh Author yields a little farther it is not without the same Foundation For if the Work and Office or the Work of the Office in general and a particular Charge may be distinguished as to a new place why not also as to the old when it is necessity puts them upon the distinction in either These Concessions I take therefore from both as to the main upon the matter to be what I have contended for I desire none to make use of me that have not need of me as such more particularly have who enter or have entred a new place And when any do it I humbly lay this charge on them that they look on this matter no otherwise but as a legal establishment or the Canonical Stamp of allowance as I have expressed it of their former Vocation which they may pardon the rather because that Orders it self as I account considered aright comes to nothing in the nature of it otherwise than this And as for this investiture with power as they call it which does so stick As I judge with both these Authors that it is in this point indeed the summ of our dispute does lye and the bent of my discourse therefore hath been driven thereat So am I perswaded that what I have said really may satisfie the unpraeocupated in judgement And I must add that though there be some Circumstances about the ordering otherwise which have been to me very sore and do require care in the prevention and good satisfaction according to a mans temper before-hand yet as to this particular meerly it seems to me as I understand the same and the words are not our part to have so little hurt in it truly that of all the rest I know of to molest I could methinks be soonest satisfied in this And if these Authors do indeed stick at all the rest for the sake of this only they are huge Conformists methinks I may say that stick at nothing However this be while we see how tenderly these candid Brethren do offer towards Submission in point of Conscience in the thing there is all the reason in the world that our Church Rulers who have the same thoughts of this investiture as they should come to composition with them