then came it neyther from the Papistes nor yet from the Gentils But whensoeuer this began or from whom soeuer it was taken the baptizing of infantes hath alwayes bene thought necessarie in the Church by all such as haue not deuided themselues by any Schisme or Heresie from the same Chap. 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 4. Now I returne to the example of Sephora and say that the vnlawfulnesse of that facte doth appeare sufficiently in that she did it (*) Mose by reson of sicknesse was not able to do it himselfe before hir husbande Moses which was a Prophete of the Lorde and (a) This is contrary to that he hath Pag. 17 Sect. 1. to whome that office of circumcision did appertayne so that vnlesse M. Doctor would haue midwiues baptise in the presence of the Bishop or the minister there is no cause why he shoulde alleage this place besides that she did cut of the fore skinne of the Infante not of minde to obey the commaundement of God or for the saluation of the chylde but in a choler onely to the ende that hir husbande might be eased and haue release which minde appeareth in hir both by hir woordes and by casting away in anger the foreskinne which she had cut of And if it be sayde that the euent declared that the acte pleased God bycause that Moses forthwith waxed better and was recouered of his sickenesse I haue shewed before how if we measure things by the euent we shall oftentymes iustifie the wicked and take the rightuousnesse of the rightuous from them Io. Whitgifte In the. 170. Page of your booke you say that God toke the Priesthode from Moses Pag. 170. Sect. 1. and gaue it to Aaron and nowe you séeme to affirme the contrarie in saying that Moses was a Prophete of the Lorde to whome that office of circumcision did apperteyne for hereby you do insinuate that Moses was a Prieste Moreouer Moses at this tyme was extréemely sicke and therefore could not execute that office himselfe And in the Geneua Bible there is this note that it was extraordinarie for Moses was sore sicke and God euen then required it Sephora therefore did circumcise in a poynt of extremitie Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred and not wilfully or of purpose that circumcision was a true circumcision though it were not done ordinarily euen so Baptisme is true Baptisme though it be sometimes ministred by such as be not ordinarie ministers The euent doth oftentimes declare the thing Exitus acta probat though not necessarily but this is certayne that these euentes are better reasons to iustifie the fact than you can she we any out of that place to the contrarie Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. vlt. Pag. 114. Sect. 1. An other reason he hath which is that the dignitie of the sacramentes doth not depende vpon the man whether he be minister or no minister good or euill In deede vpon this poynt whether he be good or an euill minister it dependeth not but on this poynt whether he be a minister or no dependeth not onely the dignitie but also (a) A straunge as sertiō auouched without proofe the beyng of the Sacrament so that I take the baptisme of women to be nomore the holy Sacrament of baptisme than I take any other dayly or ordinarie washing of the childe neyther let any man thinke that I haue at vnwares slipped into this asseueration or that I haue forgotten that soone after the tymes of the Apostles it was the vse of certayne Churches that Deacons shoulde baptize in the tyme of necessitie as they call it for as for the Baptisme of Deacons I holde it to be lawfull for bycause although as it is with vs they giue him the name of Deacon (*) Vrge hoc c. yet in deede he is as he then was in the elder tymes a minister and not a Deacon And although he did then provide for the poore and so had two functions which was not meete yet his office ought to be esteemed of the principall parte of his function which was preachyng and ministring of the Sacramentes in certayne cases And as for the baptising by laye men considering that it is not onely agaynst the woorde of God but also founded vpon a false grounde and vpon an imagined necessitie which is none in deede it moueth me nothing at all although it be very auncient for so muche as the substance of the Sacrament dependeth chiefly of the institution and woorde of God whiche is the forme and as it were the lyfe of the sacrament of which institution this is one and of the chiefe partes that it should be celebrated by a minister Io. Whitgifte If this be true and sounde doctrine then is there many that go vnder the name The inconuenience of the Repliers doctrine of Christians whiche were neuer baptized for besides diuerse that haue bene baptized by women some there are and not a fewe that haue bene baptized by suche as haue taken vpon them the ministerie not beyng therevnto eyther ordinarily or extraordinarily called and it may so be that T. C. hath hereby proued himselfe to be no Christian. And surely if you peruse all the writinges of the auncient Fathers and of the The assertion hath no sufficiēt patrones late wryters in lyke manner I beléeue that you shall not finde the lyke proposition affirmed for although diuers bothe olde and newe do not allowe that Lay men shoulde be suffred to baptise yet is there none of them suche onely excepted as erre in rebaptisation that thinke the beyng of the sacrament so to depende vpon the minister that Baptisme by lay men Tertull. Ambrose Hierome Augustine Zuinglius it is no sacrament if it be not celebrated by a minister Tertull. in his booke De Baptismo sayth That laye men may Baptise Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephes. sayeth that in the beginning it was lawfull for all menne to Baptise Ierome ad Luciferianos affirmeth that it is lawfull for Laye men to Baptise if necessitie do requyre And herevnto also dothe S. Augustine agrée in his 2. Booke agaynst the Epistle of Parmenian the. 13. Chapter M. Zuinglius in the place before by me alleaged VVriteth that the seconde errour in the circumstances of Baptisme is aboute the person bycause they thinke that Baptisme can not be gyuen of any but of a Prieste onely whereas if necessitie do requyre any man may do it And a little after he sayeth That this and such lyke circumstances are not De ipsa Baptismi essentia Not of the beyng of the Sacrament Whiche is directly contrary to your assertion M. Caluine also in his Institutions Cap. 17. Sect. 16. doth sufficiently Caluine confute this errour in these woordes Nowe if it be true that we haue set downe the Sacrament is not to be esteemed of his hande by whome it is ministred but as it were of the
such words there do signify that God will gather the Gentiles and straungers into his Church and make no distinction betwixt them and the Iewes in the time of the Gospell but how you shoulde gather of that place that the people should be as learned as the Priests and Leuites I cannot coniecture Neither truly do I know to what purpose this texte is alleadged except it be alittle by the way to flatter the people and to claw them Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 21. Sect. 4. 5. Now if the Iewes had precepts of euery the least action which told them precisely how they should walke how is not their case in that poynt better than ours which bycause we haue in many things but generall rules are to seeke often times what is the will of God which we should followe But let vs examine their lawes and compare them with ours in the matters perteyning to the Church for whereas the question is of the gouernmente of the Churche it is very impertinent that you speake of the iudicialls as though you had not yet learned to distinguish betweene the Church and common welth To the ordering and gouerning of the Church they had only the morall and ceremoniall lawe we haue the same morall that they had what speciall direction therefore they inioy by the benefyte of that we haue Io. Whitgifte The Iewes as it is confessed by learned men had their lawes more particularly Why the Iewes had their ceremonies particularly prescribed prescribed vnto them and especially touching Ceremonies not onely bycause they were prone to Idolatrie but also oftentimes in subiection to Idolatrous princes where they had occasion offered vnto them to worship their false Gods Therefore a learned interpreter saith Fateor in multis ceremonijs diuinitùs mandatis fuisse occupatos ne alias appeterent I confesse that they were occupied in many ceremonies commaunded of Cal. in barmo in pentateuc God least they should desire other This then was one though not the only cause of their ceremoniall lawes and in this respecte their case was not better but indéede much more seruile and worse than ours who are deliuered from that yoke of ceremonies and bound only to two as Aug. Epist. 118. ad Ianuar. saithe most easily to be obserued Aug. epist. 118 and most excellent in signification that is the supper of the Lord and Baptisme So that you are much deceiued if you thinke vs to be in worse case than they were bycause we haue not so many particular rules for ceremonies as they had for we are deliuered from the bondage of Ceremonies as the Apostle declareth to the Galat. 5. Galat. 5. and therefore M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabap. answering this reason of theirs There is more perfection required in the Church of Christ than there was among Cal. adue ana the Iewes and therefore Christians may not vse the sword or be magistrates saith on thys sort Hoc quidem verum est quod ad Ceremonias attinet This is true as touching ceremonies meaning that we are not now bound to so many lawes of ceremonies but haue fréedome and libertie therein I speake of accidentall ceremonies as well as of Sacramentes You say that whereas the question is of the gouernment of the Church c. wherein antiquum obtines For our present question is whither all things to be vsed in the Church are prescribed in the scripture And that which I speake of the iudiciall lawe I speake it by occasion of the interpretation of these places of Deuteronomie Howbeit I sée no such distance betwixt the Church and the common wealth but the lawes of the one doth and oughte to perteine to the other excepte you will do as the Papistes did that is seclude the ciuill magistrate altogither from medling in any ecclesiasticall matter And I am well assured that not onely the ceremoniall and morall lawe but the iudiciall also perteyned to the gouernmente of the Churche of the The iudiciall law perteyned to the gouernment of the Church Israelites and that these preceptes of not adding too or taking from perteyned to that lawe also M. Musculus in his common places Cap. de legibus deuideth the iudiciall lawe into two partes into ecclesiasticall and ciuill his wordes be these VVherefore these preceptes may not vnfitly he meaneth iudiciall be deuided Muscul. into two kyndes whereof some are ecclesiasticall and other ciuill M. Beza in lyke Beza manner in his booke de haereticis a magist puniend saith that the iudiciall law doth partly consist in the externall manner of worshipping God partly in the ciuill affaires of this lyfe And M. Caluine in his Harmo vpon the fyue bookes of Moses expounding this Caluine verse in the. 23. of Exod. Thou shalt vtterly ouerthrow them and breake in peeces their images Calleth it a politike lawe and yet notwithstanding an apendix to the firste precepte and added to confirme that which he had spoken before against Idolatrie Therefore to the ordering and gouerning of the Churche the Iewes had not only the morall and ceremoniall but the iudiciall law also Chap. 6. the fourth Diuision T. C. Page 21. Sect. vlt. We haue no ceremonies but two the ceremonies or sacramentes of Baptisme and of the Lords supper and we haue as certayne a direction to celebrate them as they had to celebrate their ceremonies and fewer and lesse difficulties can rise of ours than of theirs and we haue more playne and expresse doctrine to decide our controuersies than they had for theirs What houre had they for their ordinarie and dayly sacrifices was it not left to the order of the Church what places were appoynted in their seuerall dwellings to heare the worde of God preached continually when they came not to Ierusalem the word was commaunded to be preached but no mention made what manner of place they should haue where was pulpits commaunded or chaires and yet they had both Where any forme of buriall in the law and yet it is a thing perteyning to the Chnrch that the dead be after a comely sort buried where any order or forme of mariage and yet it is knowne they had It was which is more in the discretion of that Church vpon occasion of dearth or warre plagues or any other common calamitie to proclayme a fast Io. Whitgifte We haue no ceremonies which he sacraments but two and in them and for al things How we haue but two Ceremonies perteyning to their substance we haue as certeyne direction as they had for any of theyr sacraments But yet is not euery circumstance to be vsed about the celebrating of them so particularly nor so certainely prescribed vnto vs as was to them in theyr ceremonies sacramentes and sacrifices for they had euery particular circumstance to be vsed about their sacrifices sacramentes and ceremonies set downe vnto them as it is euident Exod. 12. 25. 26. c. and in Leuiticus We
moste pernicious I muste craue pardon of the Reader for making suche excursions out of the way Whether the Magistrate be bounde to obserue the Iudiciall law of Moses for I am compelled to followe you whiche interlace your booke with suche by ▪ matters and those so suspicious and daungerous that I can not safely passe them ouer with silence And euen nowe agayne do you enter into a straunge and dangerous opinion in my iudgement for you would haue the ciuill Magistrate bounde to obserue all the Iudiciall lawes of Moses excepte suche as were made in respect of the re gion where they were giuen and of the people to whome they were giuen Of the whiche lawes the Magistrate you say may onely chaunge the circumstances as the times and places and manners of the people shall require But you vtterly deni and are ready to proue if that perteyned to th s question that any Magistrate can saue the lyfe of blasphemers contemptuous and stubbo ne Idolaters murderers adulterous persons and suche like whiche God by his Iudiciall lawe hathe commaunded to be put to death Howesoeuer you passe this matter ouer as impertinent to this question yet for as The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the asser tion of T. C. muche as you haue héere set it downe and I am fully persuaded that it is vntrue I minde to touche it something and to vtter the reasons of my persuasions I leaue it to the consideration of those that knowe the lawes and state of the Realne and especially suche as haue the chiefe gouernment and care of the same what lieth hidde vnder this your opinion First all the lawes of this land that be contrarie to these Iudiciall lawes of Moses must be abrogated The Prince must be abridged of that prerogatiue which she hath in pardoning suche as by the lawe be condemned to dye the punishments of death for fellonie must be mitigated according to Moses law whiche doth by other meanes punish the same Exod. 22. To be short al things must be transformed Exod. 22. Lawyers must cast away their huge volumes and multitude of cases and content them selues with the bookes of Moses we of the Cleargie would be the best Iudges and they must require the lawe at our handes Deutero 17. verse 8. And so Deut. 17. while we make them beléeue that we séeke for equalitie among our selues we séeke in déede regall dominion ouer them Looke Deuter. 17. verse 12. But to omit all these considerations whiche I leaue to those to whom they do especially perteyne I wyll shew as briefly as I can how farre this opinion is from true diuinitie First besides all those places of Scripture whiche make generally for the abrogation The Iudiciall lawe abrogat of the whole lawe we haue especiall places for the Iudiciall lawe and namely those where Christ maketh lawes of deuorcement for adultrie Math. 5. and. 19. which Mat. 5. 19. were altogither néedlesse if she that is takē in adultrie should of necessitie be stoned to death according to y e law of Moses Aug. ad Pollentiū de adult coniug li. 2. cap. 6. 7. 8. 14. Augustine proueth by that whiche is written of Christ. Iohn 8. touching the woman deprehended Iohn 8. in adultrie and brought vnto him by the Scribes Pharisies that the wife taken in adultrie ought not to be punished with death but suffred to liue that she mighte be reconciled to hir husbande or at the least repent Cyril also vpon the. 11. of Leuit. saith that though the punishment of death was according to the law of Moses appoynted for adultrie Cyrill and certayne other crimes yet among Christians there is no suche commaundement in force Musculus in his common places tit de legib speaking of the law sayth thus Muscul. They aske the question whether the whole lawe be abrogated we answere if whole Moses gaue place to Christ then hathe his whole lawe giuen place to the lawe of Christe And a little after The commaundementes of the lawe are Morall Iudiciall Ceremoniall That the Ceremoniall commaundementes haue ceassed it is euident forsomuche as the Priesthoode of the lawe to the which the ceremonies were annexed is abrogated by the Priesthoode of Christ according to the order of Melchizedech and that the Iudicials also are ceassed it dothe herein appeare for that the whole order of gouernment of Israell which was requisite vnto the inhabiting of the lande of promise hath from that time ceassed wh as they beeing expelled began to dwell amongst the Gentiles without a king without gouernours without a Priest and without a lawe Hemingius in his Encber is of the same iudgement his words be these There is also Hemingius the Iudiciall law which expired with the common wealth of Moses so that it dothe not binde any man of necessitie but so farre onely as some portion of it dothe perteyne to the law of nature as the law agaynst incestuous mariages Leuit. 18. and so much of it lykewise as the ciuill Magistrate shall admit for pollicie I omit that place of M. Caluin which is written in his Harmonie vpō the. 5. bookes Caluin of Moses where he speaking of these lawes Exod. 23. Deut. 12. Num. 3 which were giuen for the breaking of Images destroying of places where idolatrie was cōmitted c. saith that they were but temporall exercises to kéepe the people in obedience c. And in the same booke speaking of the. 7 ▪ of Deut. The grauē Images of their Gods shall Deut. 7. ye burne with fire and couet not the siluer and golde that is on them c. saith Althoughe this was a politike lawe and giuen onely to the auncient people for a time yet hereby we may gather how detestable Idolatrie is c. But of all other places that is moste euident which he hathe in his Institu Cap. 20. Sect. 13. 14. 15. and therfore I wil rehearse it more at large Sunt qui rectè compositam rempub negent c. There are certaine which denie that Caluinus common welth to be well ordered which omitting the politike lawes of Moses is ruled by the common lawes of the Gentiles The which opinion how dangerous and seditious it is ☞ let other men cōsider it is inough for me to haue declared that it is both false foolish But that vsuall diuision is to be obserued which deuideth the whole law of God deliuered by Moses into maners ceremonies iudgements and euery part therof is diligently to be considered that we may vnderstande what perteyneth vnto vs thereof and what dothe not In the meane time let no man be troubled with this that both the Iudicials ceremonies did apperteyne vnto maners for the ancient fathers the inuentors of this diuisiō although they were not ignorant that these two latter parts were occupied about maners yet bycause they might be altered and abrogated without any preiudice vnto maners they called
them not morall They called that first part properly by that name moral without the which the true holynesse of maners and the immutable rule of liuing could not well consist And agayne The law of God forbiddeth to steale what punishment was appoynted for thefte in the pollicie of the Iewes appeareth ▪ in Exod. The moste auncient lawes of other nations Exod. 22. punished theft with double they which followed afterwarde made a difference betwixte open theft and that which was secret others condemned the theeues with exile banishment others adiudged them to be whipped and last of all others to be put to death False witnesse amongst the Iewes was punished with equal payne in respect of the hurt in other places onely with infamie in other places with hanging c. All lawes ioyntly do reuenge murder with bloud but yet with diuers kindes of death In some places there are greeuouser paynes appoynted for adulterers in other places those which are more easie yet we see how they al by this diuersitie of punishment tende to one ende for they al with one consent do giue sentence of punishment agaynst those offences which are condemned by the eternall law of God to wit murder theft ad ltrie false witnesse but they agree not all in the maner of the punishment Neyther truly is it necessarie or expedient that they shoulde agree herein ☞ There is a countrey which should out of hande be destroyed with theeues and slaughter if it did not with horrible example deale very sharpely with murderers There is a so some time which requireth the augmentation of the sharpnesse of punishment and some people very prone vnto some certayne sinne except they be with great rigour kepte in awe He is then very euill affected and enuieth the publike commoditie that is offended with thys diuersitie which is most meete to reteyne the obseruatiō of the law of God For that which some men obiect that by this meanes iniurie is done to the lawe of God whiles it beeing abrogated other lawes are preferred before it is most vaine For other lawes are not preferred before it but allowed not by any simple comparison in respect of Gods law but according to the condition of time place and nation neither can that be sayde to be abrogated ☞ which was neuer prescribed vnto vs for God deliuered it by the handes of Moses not for all natiōs but particularly for the Iewes c. M. Beza likewise in his booke de haer Magist. puniend of this matter writeth thus VVe acknowledge those politike lawes to be prescribed Beza onely to the countrey of the Iewes neither are we so vnskilfull that we woulde haue Moses common wealth or gouernment called backe agayne as though it were not lawfull for euery Magistrate within his owne dominion to make lawes in ciuill matters And a little after The Iudiciall lawes were framed only for one nation Therefore seeing they were neuer written for vs they can not be sayd to be abrogated And agayne Onely the Israelites were bound to the Iudiciall lawes that is those that dwell in Iurie bicause they were made fit for that common wealth onely And after that he hath shewed by an example of the lawe for theft that that maner kinde of punishment did onely binde the Israelites that other Magistrates in their countreys for good causes maye appoynt a sharper kinde of punishment for the same he cōcludeth thus Lex enim illa Mosis Idem quatenùs poenae modū praescribit alijs gentibus neque vnquā fuit posita neque nūc est propriè abrogata That lawe of Moses in so muche as it prescribeth the maner of punishment was neyther ☜ at any time giuen to other nations neither is it now properly abrogated So that now they that be disposed may perceyue howe this doctrine of yours not onely tendeth to the ouerthrowing of states of cōmon wealthes but is contrarie also to the truth and opinion of learned men and those especially of whome you your selfe make greatest accompt Therefore it is true that I haue sayde in my answere to the Admonition that is The Iudicial law to be left to the discretion of the Magistrate to adde to it or to take from it or to alter and chaunge it as shall be thought most fit for the time manner of the countrey and condition of the people as M. Caluin also very aptly noteth in the very ende of that 15. section before rehearsed Chap. 6. the 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 31. Lin. 21 ▪ So hath he lefte authoritie vnto his Churche to make lawes and appoynt orders ceremonies as shall from time to time be thought most expedient and profitable for the same so that nothing be done contrarie to his worde or repugnant to the same And this authoritie hath the Churche vsed euen from the Apostles time as it is manifest both by the scriptures Act. 6. Act. 15. 1. Cor. 11. other ecclesiasticall stories and auncient fathers as is before by me proued Iohn Whitgifte To this nothing is answered Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 31. Sect. 1. But to come to the wordes of Deuteronomie them selues what is it to adde to the worde of God or to take from it Truely to thinke otherwise or teache otherwise of God than he hathe in his worde reuealed Those take from the worde that beleeue lesse than in the worde is expressed those adde to the worde fyrste whiche teache or decree any thing eyther in matters of faythe or ceremonies contrarie to the worde Secondly those that make any thing necessarie vnto saluation not conteyned in the worde Thirdly such as make any religion or opiniō of merite in any thing that they themselues haue inuented besides the worde of God Last of all they adde to the word which forbid that for a thing of it selfe vnlawfull which Gods worde doth not forbid and make that sinne which Gods word doth not make sinne But such as truly sincerely imbrace the worde of God and admit nothing contrarie vnto it if in gouernment ceremonies without any wicked superstitious opinion they appoynt or retayne such as they know not to be agaynst the worde of God and profitable for the present state of the Church can not truly be sayd to adde any thing to the worde of God or take any thing from it though the same be not expressed in the worde T. C. Pag. 22. Sect. 3. After you define what it is to take from and put to the word of God wherin not to speake of your wonderfull * There is no great dexteritie required to performe this dexteritie in defining which can define two thinges and those contrarie putting to and taking fro with one difference which Zeno him self could neuer do you leaue out that which Moses especially ment to comprehende which is not to do more nor to do lesse than he hathe commanded And as for your diuision
by an Antichristian Pope it is first to be considered whether that be true or no. Then if it be true whether euery thing so inuented is of necessitie to be abolished T C. Page 55. Sect. 3. The matter lyeth (*) Then the ease is altered of late not in that whether these things were first inuented by Papistes or being deuised of others were after taken by the Papistes but the matter standeth in this that they haue bene vsed of the Papistes as notes and markes and sacraments of their abhominations Io. Whitgifte You alter the case as oft as it pleaseth you and libertie you haue to affirme or denie what you list when you list and where you list without controlement for hitherto I am sure your chiefe groundes against the apparell hath béen that the same was inuented by Popes and vsed by them But take your pleasure That which followeth in my Answere to the Admonition is directly against this your grounde also if you will stande to it and not shrinke Chap. 5. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 56. Sect. vlt. It is certaine that this apparell of ministers which you find your selues so much greeued with was appointed long before the church Stephanus a good Bishop inuented this apparell of Rome declined from the puritie of Christs Religion for Stephanus Bishop of Rome who liued the yeare of our Lord. 256. is sayde to be the first which did appoint this kinde of apparell for ministers neyther are you able to shewe that any Antichristian Pope inuented the same But admit it were so that this apparell was either borowed of the Iewes or taken from the Gentiles or inuented and vsed by Things inuented by euil men may be vsed of Christians some Antichristian Pope yet it followeth not but that the same may be well vsed of Christians in the Churche of Christ. Io. Whitgifte To this T. C. speaketh not one word good or euill Chap. 5. the thirde Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 57. Sect. 1. Page 58. Sect. 1. Augustine in his Epistle ad Publicolam hathe this notable saying Augustinus Et cum templa idola luci si quid buiusmodi data potestate euertuntur quamuis manifestum est cum id agimus non ea nos honorare sed potius detestari ideò tamen in vsus nostros priuatos duntaxat proprios non debemus indè aliquid vsurpare vt appareat nos pietate ista destruere non auaritia Cum verò in vsus communes non proprios ac priuatos vel in honorem dei veri conuertuntur hoc de illis fit quod de ipsis hominibus cum ex sacrilegis impijs in veram religionem mutantur c. VVhen temples Idols groues and such like things by authoritie be ouerthrovvne althoughe it is manifest vvhen vvedoe that vve honour Priuate vse of idolatrous things forbidden them not but detest them yet for all that vve may not therefore conuert thē or vse them to our ovvne priuate vses onely and commoditie that it may appeare that vve destroy them for Religion sake and not for couetousnesse But vvhen they are conuerted not into priuate and our ovvne vse but into common vses or to the honor of the true God that is done and brought to passe in them vvhich is done and brought to passe in men them selues whē of Idolaters and vvicked persons they are chaunged into true Religiō This hath God himselfe taught in those testimonies vvhich thou thy selfe haste vsed vvhen as God himselfe commaunded that of that same groue vvhich vvas dedicated to straunge Gods there shoulde be wood taken for his sacrifices and of Hierico that all the Golde and Siluer and brasse shoulde be brought into the treasurie of the Lorde VVherefore that also vvhich is vvritten in Deutronomie thou shalt not couet their siluer nor their golde neyther shalt thou take any thing therof to thy selfe least thou offende bycause it is abhomination vnto the Lord thy God c. It manifestly appearreth that eyther priuate vses is forbydden in such things or that nothing should so be brought into thy house that it be honored for then it is abhomination c. Hetherto Augustine By these wordes it doth manifestly appeare that euen things altogether Idolatrous things turned to cōmon vse dedicated to Idols and vsed in Idolatrie may be conuerted to common vses and vsed in the seruice of God and to his honor but not to priuate vses nor superstitiously T. C. Pag. 55. Sect. 4. As for Augustine his place it is to be vnderstanded of such things as haue (*) This shift 〈◊〉 answered 〈◊〉 ward a necessarie vse and therefore may not be taken away from vs by the superstition of men For so we might also be depriued of the sunne which is as it were the life of the worlde bycause the sunne hath bene worshipped But that Saint Augustine did not like of this kinde of reteining ceremonies it maye (*) This shift 〈◊〉 answered 〈◊〉 ward appeare Do you aske saith he how the Paganes may be wonne how they may be brought to saluation August om 10. de verbis domini in Mattheum m. 9. forsake their solemnities let go their toyes and then if they agree not vnto our truth let thē be ashamed of their fewnesse whereby he sheweth that the nearest waye to gaine the Papistes is to forsake their ceremonies And yet I woulde be lothe to saye eyther with you or with Augustine that it is not lawfull for a man to make of a Popishe surplisse a shirte for himselfe or to take the golde of a Cope which he hath boughte and conuert it to his priuate vse And herein we do nothing disagree with Saint Augustine whiche graunt that surplesses and copes and tippets and cappes may be applyed to a good vse eyther common or priuate as they will best serue but we denie that that vse is in distinguishing either the ministers from other men or the ministers executing their ecclesiasticall function from themselues when they doe not exercise that office Io. Whitgifte The wordes of Augustine be plaine neyther can they be so shifted of And it maketh euidently against your distinction that he sayth such things may not be conuerted into priuate vses A man may cauill with the most manifest authorities either of scriptures or fathers that can be but euery shifte and cauill is not a sufficient answere This proposition is by these wordes of Augustine directly proued that things altogether dedicated to Idols and vsed in Idolatrie may be afterwarde vsed in the seruice of God and to his honour which is the state of our question And bycause this is a materiall poynt and peraduenture Saint Augustine his authoritie is not much regarded of you I will set downe M. Caluine his opinion also touching the same matter who in hys Harmonie vpon the bookes of Moyses vpon these words in the. 23. of Erodus ver 24. Thou shalt vtterly ouerthrowe and breake in