Mr. CLAVDE's ANSWER TO Monsieur de MEAVX's BOOK INTITULED A Conference with Mr. CLAUDE WITH HIS LETTER to a FRIEND WHEREIN He Answers a Discourse of M. de Condom now Bishop of Meaux concerning the Church IMPRIMATUR Junii 18. 1687. GVIL. NEEDHAM LONDON Printed for T. Dring at the Harrow in Fleetstreet at Chancery-Lane-end MDCLXXXVII THE Author's Preface AMONG all the Points in Controversy betwixt us and the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion it is plain there is not any one wherein they think better of their Cause than this which hath been started since our Reformation Concerning the Church and yet perhaps there is not any one wherein they have less reason to think so Were this groundless confidence observed to be predominant among the Vulgar only who seldom look beyond the prejudices of their Infancy or among the busy men of intrigue in the Age who are ever raising their worldly Advantages as a Bulwark against the Truth there would be no great reason to be surprised at it But the most amazing thing of all is that we continually meet with the same Opinion in persons that want neither Understanding nor sound Sense and Judgment and which otherwise seem men of Integrity and Sincerity so that there is scarce any question to be made but that they are verily perswaded of the thing as a certain undoubted Truth Now for the undeceiving these Persons it will in my opinion be convenient not only to set their own Conceptions before them but also to go back as far as the ground and original of those Conceptions that so they themselves may plese to make such Reflexions upon them as they shall judg fit and necessary The ground then of all this mistake is that upon pretence of the Churches being a Society they immediately suffer themselves to be possest at first with an Opinion That we are to judg of it almost in the same manner that we do of a Civil Society and so never give themselves the trouble of enquiring into the differences by which these two are distinguisht from one another Hence they have fancied that the Essence of the Church consists intirely in something External and that as a man need do no more to become a true Member of a Civil Society than only live in an outward observance of the Laws so to become a true Member of the Church no more was required than barely an outward Profession of the Faith and Religion and that there was no necessity at all of any inward Virtues such as Faith Hope and Charity This is the very thing that hath made the Definitions of most of their modern Divines who place it in a meer outward Profession be entertained with Approbation and Applause And when once these Definitions are received they are under a necessity of looking upon not any one part of these Professors to be the true Church of Jesus Christ but in general the whole Body of Professors whether they be good or bad men just or unjust hypocrites or sincere Believers From hence by another unavoidable consequence they are forced to conceive of the Church not only as an exterior and visible Body but as a Body distinctly and certainly visible to such a degree I mean that a man might point out without any danger of mistake the particular men of whom it is composed as plainly and distinctly as you can point the Persons that make up any other Society and declare without the least fear of mistaking your men such and such are members of it Such a visibility of the Church as this it is that Bellarmin hath explained thus The Church is a company of Men as visible and as palpable as the Citizens of Rome the Kingdom of France or the Republick of Venice So that his meaning is that as the French the Romans and Venetians may plainly and particularly be singled out so likewise may the Persons that make the Body of the Church be as particularly and with the same degree of certainty that they were Indeed if there be nothing besides a bare outward Profession required to make men truly Members of the Church This Profession is a thing discernable by the eye in every single person and thus the Church will be visible so as that particular men may be plainly distinguished to be of it By another necessary and unavoidable Consequence they were constrained to apply all the Promises made by God to his Church whether in the Old or New Testament to this visible and exteriour Body And being these Promises include the Churches perpetuity that they might keep as close to their first Notions as they could there was a necessity of explaining the Churches subsistence in this sense That the Church must always subsist after the manner of a sensible and palpable body so as to be the object of our sight and discernable by all the World even to a plain and positive distinction of particular persons Hence it is that they have drawn their so much boasted Succession and which all their disputes run so much upon Whereby they understand a continued train of Priests one after another in the same Episcopal Sees and a continued train of people making up the same Congregations so as that both People and Priests always make profession of the same Religion without any change or alteration except it be perhaps in matters of Discipline which are things that may very well admit of a change without making the Church to differ from what it was before Then carrying these Conceptions of theirs still further they fancied that as in order to the preservation of the Civil Society an absolute Supreme Authority to which all must bend is necessary because without such a one there would be no possible means of composing differences or preventing Domestick quarrels the same was likewise necessary in the Church That in this one Supreme and Absolute Tribunal must be acknowledged upon Earth that without this and an intire obedience paid to it even in matters of Conscience Dispute would never be ended nor Unity preserved but at last things would come to such a pass that there would start up as many Churches and different Religions as Families And this gave birth to their pretentions to Infallibility and a blind implicite obedience to the determinations of Councils without presuming to examine them at all Lastly It is by all these prejudicate opinions that the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion suppose themselves able to overthrow the Protestant-Cause and make that of their own Church impregnable The pretended Reformed Church say they cannot be this exterior body always visible and palpable which must have continued in this state of visibility and that without any alteration ever since Jesus Christ and the Apostles time down to ours because this is not above a hundred or sixscore years old Therefore it is not the Church of Christ This cannot shew a continued succession of Priests and People Assemblies and Episcopal Sees nor a profession of
one and the same Religion without any variation which is exactly what Christ promised Therefore this is not the Church of Jesus Christ This Church hath forsaken the Supreme Authority and Infallibility of the Church of Rome and refused to pay obedience to her decisions on the contrary the hath taken upon her to examine those Decisions and hath done all that in her lay utterly to subvert this Tribunal which is so necessary to the subsistence of the true Church Therefore she is not the Church of Jesus Christ Of these Objections especially hath M. de Meaux made his Book to consist and because this of mine is made publick only with a design to answer that it is not fit I should prevent the reading of it in this Preface nor forestal the judgment men may make of my Answers when they see them at large I shall think it therefore sufficient to say in general by way of preparation That all these pretended Principles which the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion take the freedom to suppose are every one of them false and sophistical and capable of being confuted more ways than one because all built upon a false and vain foundation For in truth what greater vanity can there be than to go about to form an Idea of the Church after the pattern of a Civil Society The Civil Society is a humane contrivance that owes its birth to natural instinct under the Government of a General Providence and is kept up and preserved by Rules of Justice and humane Policy The Church is a Divine and Supernatural work born only of the Blood of the Son of God and animated only by his Spirit His hands have made it and his particular Providence watches over it and preserves it The Laws of the Civil Society do not properly respect any more than the outward man they never make it any part of their End or business to regulate mens hearts or alter the inclinations or inward motions there all within they leave perfectly free and are satisfied with an outward observation which comes within the reach of man's power The Laws of the Church do chiefly regard the inward man their design is to sanctifie the heart and fix themselves especially in the soul which are effects above any power of man and can belong to none but God only The matters in which the Civil Society is imployed are meerly temporal such as we call the Goods of Fortune Honour Trade the Exercise of Arts and Sciences and other things of this kind which may be cognisable by men and brought under their Jurisdiction But the matters in which the Society of the Church is concerned consist in Mysteries conveyed to us by a Supernatural Revelation in Laws imposed upon the Conscience in the internal and external practice of Christian Vertues Now all these things are Heavenly Spiritual unchangeable having no dependance upon the will authority or declaration of men but solely and immediately upon the will of God and his declaring them to be such To make a man a true member of the Civil Society there is no more required than to seem so in the eyes of the world who can pass a judgment only on the outward appearance without being able to dive into the heart To be a member of the Church it is required that a man be so not in the eyes of men only but of God too who aâ— the Scripture expresses it trieth the very hearts and reins and will not be satisfied with a pare outside The design of Civil Societies is that every man may according to his quality and station enjoy the publick Priviledges that his Personal Rights and Properties may be preserved intire that each particular person may live quietly and peaceably under the protection of the whole Body and these are Advantages not out of the power of men to give The end for which the Church is designed is everlasting Salvation a Heavenly Paradise the happiness of a life to come which are all Advantages not within the power of men to confer In the Civil Society private men ought rather to suffer injuries that are put upon them than disturb the peace of the whole Body because such injuries may be endured and yet not approved and besides if they do it the evil is not past all redress for God who protects the innocent and oppressed is able to right them and recompence their losses with interest In the Church it is far otherwise where the Conscience must acquiesce and a quiet submission cannot be given to a lye an error or an unjust thing without approving it and when it is approved the evil is past redress for God will avenge that fault and nothing can make us amends for the loss of our Eternal Salvation Besides that the peace we hereby allow the whole Body is so far from a Blessing that it is the worst of Evils being in truth no better than a War against God I repeat it therefore once again That there is not in the World a greater falsity nor a more sophistical imposture than the framing such a notion of the Church after the model of Civil Societies The case standing thus who does not perceive that all the conclusions from this false supposition fall to the ground and utterly vanish A man must not after this fancy the Church to be a Body merely external nor that all its essence consists in a bare Profession nor that these Definitions given us of it which run upon an outward profession of the same Faith a participation of the same Sacraments a submission to the same Pope without allowing internal Graces any share are good and valid definitions nor that wicked men worldlings and hypocrites are Members of Jesus Christ's true Church All this would do if the question were concerning a Body or contrivance merely humane as the Civil Society is But when we discourse of a thing that is the work and contrivance of God and must bear some proportion to the excellency of its Author we must affirm that Faith Hope and Charity and in one word all the parts of true Regeneration are essential to it and that this consists of the Faithful and Elect only excluding thence the Hypocrites and Reprobate We must not afterwards fancy the Church so be a body or company of men visible at the same rate that Kingdoms and Commonwealths are Liâ—â—an so as to distinguish plainly and without danger of mistake the very persons whereof it is composed This were allowable provided the Church consisted in an outward appearance and bare profession only But we must affirm it to be visible in the midst of dissemblers as honest men are visible when mixt with those that act otherwise or to make use of a Scripture instance as the good Corn is visible tho mingled in the same field with Tares that look like it The Promises of Jesus Christ must no longer be applied to all the exterior Body made up of a mere profession nor must
triumphant in Heaven that which is now militant on Earth and that which is not yet in the world but shall be in succeeding Ages All these three Churches do really make but one because united together in the eternal purpose of God appointed to know one and the same Word to partake of one and the same Spirit and to inherit one and the same Glory They are but one Family for they have the same Father the same Rights and Priviledges the same Hopes and are called to the same Duties They are but one body under the protection and Guidance of Jesus Christ their only Head who is as the Scripture says The same yesterday to day and for ever And this is our sense of the Church called in the Creed Catholick or Universal The Latitude we here take the Church in hath displeased M. de Condom he says we put a wrong sense upon the Article and to understand it thus is in effect to reject it He is of opinion it should be confined to this part upon Earth which he defines A Society making profession to believe c. But in the first place M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that Saint Augustine however hath taught us to explain the Church in our Creed after this manner That Father indeed went farther than we do for he hath not scrupled to include in this notion the Angels confirmed in Grace Here says he and 't is in his very Exposition of the Creed that he says it we must take the Church whole and entire not only for that part of it upon earth which praises the name of God from the rising of the Sun unto the going down thereof singing to God a new Song since their deliverance from their former Captivity but also for that other part which is in Heaven and never was separated from the Divine presence the Blessed and Holy Angels The Body of Christ says he in another place is the Church not this or that Church but which is diffused over the whole world not that which is made up of men now alive but consisting of those which have been before us and those which shall come after us even to the end of the world For the whole Church being composed of all the Faithful in as much as all the Faithful are the Members of Jesus Christ 〈◊〉 Jesus Christ for its Head and this Head though exalted high in the Heavens does notwithstanding still continue to govern his body M. de Condom must likewise allow us to tell him that the Catechism of the Council of Trent hath given this sense of the Church in our Creed The Church it says and 't is in the very Explication of this Article hath two parts one of which is called Triumphant the other Militant The Triumphant is that illustrious assembly of the Blessed and all those who have vanquished and triumph'd over the World the Flesh and the Devil and who being now delivered from the miseries of this life enjoy everlasting rest and felicity The Church Militant is the company of all the Faithful yet alive upon earth which is therefore called Militant because they are engaged in a perpetual war with these most deadly enemies Satan the World and the Flesh Yet must we not from hence imagine that they are two distinct Churches but as was said two parts of one and the same Church one of which is gone before and already possest of its Heavenly Country The other daily following after till at length being united with our Saviour it shall rest above in Eternal happiness Again We must desire M. de Condom's leave to say that the very Title of Catholick or Vniversal used in the Creed does lead us to this extended notion of the Church This to me seems evident for two reasons First that this Title is given the Church to distinguish it from all false Churches which do neither exist always nor every where but spring up and die away in some particular places and at some certain times as having no sound nor lasting principle Secondly that this Title was to distinguish it from particular Churches which are but members of this great Body collected by Christ and separated from the world that he might sanctifie it to himself Whence it follows that when we say the Vniversal or Catholick Church by this is plainly meant the Church intire and at large without exception or limitation either as to time or place Lastly M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that we are brought to this notion by what follows in the Creed The Communion of Saints which terms explain this of the Catholick Church For the Saints are not only persons now living upon Earth but those also that reign in Heaven and those which shall be to the worlds end and 't is with all these that we are in Communion If the Communion of Saints were to be understood of such only as make profession to believe in Jesus Christ and govern themselves by his word This could be no other than an external Communion by living under the same Ministry and partaking of the same Sacraments which good and bad men enjoy equally And certainly this would fall far short of so great so Majestick an expression and consequently could not deserve a room in our Creed But says M. de Condom in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of faith this term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians I own it must be taken in its most proper and most natural sense but even this supplies us with a fresh argument against him it being certain that the most proper and most natural sense is to take the Vniversal Church for the company of all those that are truly the faithful separated from the world by the Word and Holy Spirit of God according to the purpose of his Election from the beginning to the end of all things I acknowledg the word Church when used in a Civil sense as for instance when spoken of the people of Israel does most properly signifie an external and visible company and so far I am of M. de Condom's mind both as to what he urges out of the Acts and from the Septuagint Translation But still I assert that this word when applied to a Christian Society does not properly denote a visible Congregation or an outward profession of the Faith and no more but chiefly an inward calling a spiritual communion and such as that outward is only a consequence of and does depend upon A man must be utterly ignorant of Christianity to deny this truth The Church then is a name for something within and not barely to signifie what passes without so that implying an inward communion when the Title of Vniversal is put to it it must needs mean the whole body of true and faithful Christians By the same reason I affirm this to be its most natural
signification When we say in plain terms the Vniversal Church nothing can be more natural than to understand the whole company of Gods children as opposed to the men of the world and children of this generation Nothing more natural to Faith and especially a Confession of Faith than to interpret a term expressing the object of Faith not in a restrained sense which gives only a partial Idea of the thing nor in an ambiguous sense which gives a confused and doubtful one but in a sense that shall be perspicuous and full As to the common use of the word M. de Condom must pardon me if I say there is a fallacy in his argument For supposing it true which really it is not that all Christians of this and some ages last past had confined the term Vniversal Church to the Church at present upon Earth suppose the pretended Reformed to use M. de Condom's own expression did commonly understand this term so yet still 't is a trick to attempt to adjust the sense of the Creed by that which some latter ages have fixt upon it 'T is just as if I should go about to explain the terms of our language by what will be in vogue two or three hundred years hence For who does not see that the acceptation alters and words are mightily removed from their first and genuine signification What I have alledged from St. Austin and the Trent-Catechism plainly convict M. de Condom of a mistake either in matter of fact or point of right If the matter of fact deposited before be true That all Christians understand by the Church a Society making profession c. He is out in point of right for St. Austin and the Trent-Catechism shew that the Church in our Creed is to be otherwise understood But if this Rule hold that the word in the Creed must be taken in such a sence as is most in use among Christians he errs in matter of fact for St. Austin and the Catechism taking it as we see 't is manifest the Christians of their times did not understand it as M. de Condom does of a Society making profession to believe c. It is questionless more reasonable to say that the term Vniversal Church in our Creed should be interpreted in a way most agreeable to Scripture stile but this very thing quite overthrows M. de Condom's pretensions For the Scripture when speaking of the Church as the Creed does with regard to its Universality does always mean the whole body of the Faithful and not one part only Thus St. Paul hath taken it in that excellent passage God hath given Jesus Christ to be the Head of the Church which is his body the fulness of him that filleth all in all In the fifth Chapter of that Epistle he repeats it no less than six times in the same sense The husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the Church The Church is subject to Christ as the wife is to her husband Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might present it to himself a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle Christ nourisheth and cherisheth the Church This is a great mystery concerning Christ and the Church Thus again Col. 1. Christ is the head of the body the Church who is the beginning the first-born from the dead So lastly Heb. 12. Ye are come to Mount Sion the city of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem and to an innumerable company of Angels to the general assembly and Church of the first-born which are written in Heaven For the Apostle does not mean the Church Triumphant only as M. de Condom would perswade us but the whole body of those whom God hath enrolled in the Book of his Predestination whether already taken up to Glory or such as are already justify'd and sanctified upon Earth but not yet glorify'd or those whom he will call effectually hereafter and justifie in order to their Glorification I conclude this Question with one observation which ought not to give M. de Condom any offence because the greatest demonstration of respect to an adversary is the removing every little objection made by him I observe then that his Argument which contains all this part of his Discourse neither does nor according to the rules of reasoning can conclude any thing at all He would know the meaning of Vniversal Church in our Creed We must take this term says he in the most proper signification and such as is most in use among Christians I grant it Now all Christians as he goes on by the name of Church understand a society c. and for this I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reform'd themselves Who does not perceive that this concludes nothing He should have said All Christians understand by the Church Vniversal a society c. and of this I desire no other witnesses c. Thus he should have delivered himself if he would argue regularly All this while M. de Condom's proof all through the sequel of his discourse runs not upon the term in his Proposition The Vniversal Church but on that single term the Church between which there is a wide difference for the Church may well be taken in a sense that the Vniversal Church can by no means admit of Indeed had M. de Condom said All Christians by the Church Vniversal understand a Society making profession c. and of this I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves we should have answered him That the Pretended Reform'd never understood by the Vniversal Church a Society making profession to believe c. because according to their Tenets the Church Universal rose a great way further than this Society making profession c. So that we should immediately have put a stop to his Argument and he could never have effected what he hoped for from it Quest 2. Whether M. de Condom's be a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word By this decision of our first question I think Sir it appears that M. de Condom had no ground for accusing us of taking that Article of our Creed concerning the Vniversal Church in a wrong sense Let us now proceed to the second Enquiry whether M. de Condom have given a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth in calling it A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word Now this Question being of such mighty importance that upon the determination oâ— it the whole Controversie betwixt us and the Romaâ—â—â—â—â— touching the Church does entirely depend I was amazed to see 〈◊〉 he did not think fit to clear it either to Mademoiselle de Duras or 〈◊〉 other Proselytes for whom the perusal of this Discourse was 〈◊〉 Methinks when men go
being reduced to a bare external profession Would God have sent us a new Jerusalem a new Sion a new City from above and make this up of Righteous and Wicked Hypocrites and true Believers indifferently Does not the Apostle understand it so when he says that Jerusalem is free that her children are not in bondage i. e. those who are the Children by promise that they shall not be cast out like Children of the bondwoman but shall be Heirs and that there is the same difference between this and the other Jerusalem that was between the two Wives of Abraham Sarah and Agar Would God make him a new Tabernacle a new House a new Temple and build it of holy and profane materials indifferently St. Peter did not intend it so You says he as lively stones are built up a spiritual house Would God separate to himself a new people a new Israel a new Nation from all other Nations and require from it no more than an outward profession which alone works no regeneration at all To shew that God himself never intended this observe how himself speaks This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days saith the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be my people We must take notice that all these names above mentioned are derived from the old figures of the Mosaical dispensation this the very reading of them plainly testifies Now this very thing makes directly against M. de Condom's definition For as it is essential to a figure to consist of something External and Corporeal so is it equally essential to the thing figured to consist of something Internal and Spiritual The Church therefore is no longer a Jerusalem an Israel a people linked together by outward bands only this would correspond well enough with the figures of the old Law but it is a people an Israel a Jerusalem united and compacted by the inward hands of the same Faith and the same Sanctification This very term the Church is of it self sufficient to confirm this truth M. de Condom acknowledges the Christians had it from the Jews which is true He says the Jews made use of it to signify the visible Society of God's people the Assembly which makes profession to serve him I agree with him in that too He adds That the Christians have kept it in the same sense I am not of that opinion This word when applied to the figure can signify no more than a visible outward Assembly but when to the thing figured it must of necessity imply something more it must denote an inward community a company not of Bodies only but Souls too for it is not enough that a confession be made with the mouth men must also believe with the heart unto Righteousness III. This will be yet more evident if you reflect on some other applelations given to the Church with relation to Jesus Christ For it is called His flock his sheep his spouse his sister his dove his well-beloved his body a Body whereof He is the head a Body that is his flesh and his bones a house built upon him as upon a Corner-stone the sanctified in Jesus Christ the Children which God hath given him and other expressions like these Now who can ever imagine these glorious Titles should import no more than an outward profession or that profane persons and reprobates can have any share in them It is his flock but what flock Fear not little flock for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom They are his sheep but how My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand It is his Spouse and his Sister but in what respect Thou hast ravished my heart my sister my spouse thou hast ravished my heart It is his Dove but why his Dove My dove my undefiled is but one the daughters saw her and blessed her She is his well-beloved but Wherefore his Well-beloved As the lilly among therns so is my beloved among the daughters It is his Body but how his body The edifying of the body of Christ till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God unto a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ He is its Head but what sort of Head From him the whole body fitly joyned together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth maketh increase of the body to the edifying of it self in love It is his flesh and his bones but how these No man ever hateth his own flesh but nourisheth and cherisheth it even as the Lord the Church It is a structure built upon him but how In him all the building fitly framed together groweth into an holy temple in the Lord. They are the sanctified in Jesus Christ but how sanctsied They are such as in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. They are the Epistle of Jesus Christ but in what regard the Epistle Written not with Ink but with the spirit of the living God not in tables of stone but in fleshy tables of the heart It is his People but what kind of people Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power in the beauties of holiness They are the Children which God hath given him But wherefore were they given him To exhibit them one day saying Behold I and the children which thou hast given me Thou hast given me power over all flesh that I should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given me Can any man after all this grant that the Church should be defined A Society making profession to believe c. or imagine that Hypocrites belong to this mystical Divine Body IV. If we search the Scripture yet further we shall find other Arguments in confirmation of this Truth Among these I reckon the predictions concerning the Church of Christ to be met with in the Prophets Thus it is described by Moses The Lord thy God will circumcise thy heart and the heart of thy seed to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul that thou mayest live There shall be saith Isaiah a high-way and a way it shall be called the way of holiness the unclean shall not pass over it but it shall be for those the wayfaring men tho fools shall not err therein No lion shall be there nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon it shall not be found there but the redeemed shall walk there And in another place All thy children shall be taught of the Lord and great shall be the peace of thy children In righteousness
of the Church The Church is the Body of Jesus Christ according to that of the Apostle for His body the Church whence it is evident that such as are not accounted his Members cannot obtain Salvation Now the Members of Jesus Christ are united by Love both to one another and to him their Head A little further answering the Donatists Cavils against the Catholicks for having persecuted them for having burnt their Bibles for having sacrificed to Idols I return the same answer says he which I have often done already That what you say either is not true or if it be it concerns not Christ's good Corn but the Chaff The Church does not perish for this which shall be throughly purged from these men at the last exact judgment I enquire after the true Church That is where she is that hears the words of Jesus Christ and does them that builds upon a Rock that thus hearing and doing does yet bear with those that hear and do not and so build upon the Sand. I enquire where the Corn is which must grow among Tares till the Harvest Matt. 13. not what the Tares have done or do I enquire where Christ's Well-beloved is she who is among the wicked Daughters as the Lily among Thorns Cant. 2. not what the Thorns have done or now do I enquire where the good Fish are Matt. 13. which till they are drawn to shore must be content to lye in the same Net with bad ones not what the bad Fish have done or now do Afterwards again Seeing both good and bad administer and receive the Sacrament of Baptism and the good only are spiritually regenerated become his true Members and make up the building of Christ's Body 't is plain that Church consists of the good only to which it was said As the lily among thorns so is my beloved among the daughters Cant. 2. For it consists of those that build upon a Rock that is that hear the Word of God and do it For this Reason when St. Peter acknowledged Jesus to be the Christ the Son of God he said unto him Matt. 16. And upon this Rock will I build my Church This is not therefore those who build upon the Sand i. e. they that hear Christ's Words and do them not For the same Christ hath said Matt. 7. He that heareth my words and doth them I will liken him to a wise man that built his house upon a rock And a little before the end of the Book There are many who communicate with the Church in the Sacraments yet are not in the Church Else if when one is excommunicated visibly he be then only separated from the Church when he is restored to the Communion we must say that he is actually stated in the Church again But suppose his return be hypocritical That he bring a heart inveterate against the Truth and the Church must we own that such a one is perfectly reconciled and become a true member of Jesus Christ because the outward formalities of receiving him in have past upon him God forbid As therefore he is not really of the Church tho readmitted into the Communion so if before Excommunication he had a Soul at enmity with the Truth he was in truth separated even then And thus it is that the good and I bad seed grow together in the same common Field until Harvest that is the Children of the Kingdom and the Children of the wicked one If after all this M. de Condom shall still maintain that an outward profession and participation of the Sacraments are sufficient to make men members of the Church we may take the confidence to tell him that his Authority is not yet advanced so far with us as to be reckon'd of equal weight with St. Augustin's In his Book against Cresconiâ—s Good and bad men he says may baptize but God alone who is eternally good can purifie the conscience The wicked are condemned of Christ without the Churches knowledg as having an evil and a polluted conscience and are not even now in Christ's body the Church For Christ cannot have such for his members as are condemned and therefore they Baptize even while they are out of the Church themselves God forbid such monsters should be reckoned among the members of the only Dove God forbid such should enter into the inclosed garden whose keeper can never be imposed upon In like manner does this holy Father speak in his Book of the Christian Doctrine Tichonius the Donatist haveing busied himself in laying down some Rules for the understanding of Scripture St. Augustine takes them into examination and this is what he says to the second of them His second Rule concerns the twofold Body of Christ that is an improper term for in reality none are his body who shall not continue with him for ever He should rather have exprest it concerning our Lords true or mixt body or true and counterfeit or some such like term For though hypocrites seem to be of the Church they are so far from being with him to all eternity that they are really not with him now He might then be allowed to lay down this Rule but he should have phrased it concerning the mixt Church And afterwards Tichonius his seventh and last Rule is concerning the Devil and his body For the Devil is the head of the wicked and they in some sort his members appointed to undergo with him the punishment of everlasting fire as Christ is the head of the Church which is his body and appointed to eternal glory with him As therefore in the first Rule entituled Of the Lord and his body when the Scripture speaks of one and the same person we must distinguish carefully what belongs to the Head and what to the Body so as to this last Rule we shall find things spoken of the Devil which do not so much belong to Him and his Body Now that Body of his is composed not only of such as are visibly without but those also who though in truth they belong to him yet continue for a time mixed with the Church I make no doubt but so many passages of St. Augustine together with those other proofs I instanced in before for the resolving this question may make M. de Condom a little uneasie though he think never so well of his own principle But in short it concerns not only this Bishop but all others that take this dispute into consideration to know once for all what mighty difficulties they must overcome before they can establish the pretended Authority of their Church That is to say in one word it is fit they know that in order to compass this design they must triumph over Scripture triumph over Reason triumph over the Fathers but above all they must declare open war with St. Austin particularly The Throne of Rome's Hierarchy is never capable of being set up but upon these foundations or to speak more properly upon
these ruins Qu. 3. Whether the Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether both together considered in a different sense and under different respects Thus much I think Sir may suffice to give a resolution of the second question which was whether the Bishop of Condom's definition of the Church upon Earth was a good and sufficient definition viz. A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word or whether it was defective and required something else to be added to it You see the necessity of handling this subject with some exactness for it being our business to know what Society we must be of to obtain Salvation and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church being it concerns us to know to what Society the Promises of Jesus Christ are to be applied and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church The first thing in reason to be done is to form an abstracted Idea of the true Church before it be applied to any particular subject that so this may serve for a Rule and direct us to know at least what that true Church is which we enquire after We know in general that there is one true Church we know also that this Church is a Religious Society but when we come to define it particularly every one knows his own method of doing it This therefore is the first thing to be determined not only to avoid equivocation but to prevent a continual deviation which may otherwise happen through the whole dispute by means of a mistake in the beginning and this having given occasion to the second question the dispatching that already will mightily facilitate our enquiry into the third The thing then to be examined is whether the Society of true believers who only are the Church be visible or invisible or whether both in some senses and respects For the resolution of this Query I shall not say that this true Church being a Society of men and so a body that hath its external order as all other Societies have hath likewise consequent to that a visibility common to it with all other bodies Thus much is necessarily supposed for the Believers are not Angels nor invisible Spirits but in this respect like the rest of mankind But this visibility being supposed we must further enquire Whether there be not yet another which gives it the Character of Jesus Christ's true Church so that a man may say That the body we see and which is the object of our senses as the true Church of Christ In this there would not be the least difficulty had not God's design as to his Church been disturbed by the enemy of our Salvation For since God calls true Believers only and since as we have already shewn such alone constitute the Church were it not for what happens from some other thing there would not be among the outward Professors of Christianity either Hypocrites or Hereticks or Superstitious or worldly or profane persons And thus none but such as are truly the faithful being to be found among them this outward profession would be a sure means and an univocal Character to know the true Faith and Regeneration by and consequently to know the true Church of Jesus Christ as such So that we need say only thus much That although the Church were not immediately visible by its inward and cssential form because none can immediately see mens hearts but God only yet it would be visible by its external form as by a sure distinguishing Character For it might be seen by its Ministery and profession of Faith in Christ and known to such a degree that a man might infallibly and positively say That is the Church But we all know that is Jesus Christ sowed his good seed in the field of the world so to use the expressions in the Parable the enemy hath likewise sown Tares That is that with the true Believers are intermixt vast numbers of men who 〈◊〉 no more than the appearance and outside of Christianity and so make the outward profession to be a note subject to mighty uncertainties and equivocation This God hath permitted for reasons known to his own wisdom and hence have risen on one side false Churches and on the other false members of the true I mean whole Communities who have wrongfully assumed to themselves the title of a Church and single persons who wrongfully assumed the title of the Faithful So that the Church now like all other things liable to hypocrisy and dissimulation cannot be truly known without much difficulty And whereas according to the nature of the thing the Churches visibility and invisibility ought to lye here that its essential and internal from cannot be seen immediately and of it self but may by the mediation of its external form instead of this they do now consist further in a discerning between true and false a distinguishing betwixt that which is real and sincere and that which is counterfeit We must therefore examine how this distinction is to be made because in it consists the visibility or invisibility of the true Church Whether we must make it between several external bodies differing from one another or between several persons externally incorporated into the same Body I bâ—gin with the former and affirm that the discerning between several bodies depends upon some certain marks or characters whereby that body on whose side the true Church is may be distinguished from another where it is not I shall not now shew what those Characters are for this is another dispute between the Church of Rome and us which we need not here engage our selves in It is enough we are all agreed that such marks there are and that by them this distinction must be made That which most concerns us to take notice of and which I desire you would observe with a very particular attention is that after we have found this Body or external Society on whose side the true Church is we may and in reality do form to our selves two notions of it one proceeding from a mere Judgment of Charity the other from a Judgment of Reflection By the Judgment of Charity we look upon all within the Body to be true Believers indifferently For the searching of hearts being not in our power but peculiar to God Charity makes no distinctions but supposes that things are in truth what they should be and upon this supposition we call all that society the visible Church speaking simply and absolutely By the Judgment of Reflection having consulted the Rules of Scripture and the light of Experience we come to know that there are Tares mixed with the Wheat and that it is past a doubt that among these outward Professours are abundance of hypocritical superstitious ambitious and prophane people Hence we correct our first notion and term this Society a visible mixt Church Thus in the same external body we distinguish two different Bodies one of true
Believers which we look upon as the true Church of Jesus Christ the other of hypocrites and worldlings who have only the shadow and shell of Faith and Regeneration and consequently do not belong to Jesus Christ's true Church This is the original of all that ambiguity betwixt the Romanists and us M. de Condom according to the principles of Cardinal Bellarmin and Perron and most of the Doctors of his Communion does in this Dispute judge of the true visible Church by that notion of Charity which without making any difference includes bad and good true and false Believers And we judge of the true visible Church by that other termed the notion of Reflection which excludes hypocrites and worldlings and confines it self to true Believers only He supposes without offering any proof for it that there is no other visible Church than this whole Body of Professors and that That of the true Believers is invisible which we deny He proves that the true Church of Christ to whom the promises belong is a visible Church which we grant We must take leave therefore to tell him that he supposes what he should prove and proves what he ought to suppose which must needs entangle the matter in dispute and render it mighty intricate and obscure But what great matter is it you 'l say as to this Dispute whether a man judges of the true visible Church by the notion of Charity or that of Reflection I answer if the matter had concerned only the Duties incumbent on the Church or exhorting and instructing men in those Duties it would signify very little which of these two notions we followed For the duties incumbent on beth good and had are much the same they all hear the same Word partake of the same Sacraments and are all under the same Obligations But the present controversy does not concern the duties and exhortations to them but the investing the Church in some particular rights and priviledges allowed her and applying to her the promises of Jesus Christ So that it highly concerns us in this case not to follow a notion which may lead us into mistakes and give away these priviledges and promises to men that have no manner of right to them It nearly concerns us not to follow a notion which may occasion our falling into errour under pretence of that name the Church There is an absolute necessity of clearing an ambiguity which if not cleared may prejudice our Conscience and put our Salvation upon a hazard Now Sir let us see I beseech you whether of these two notions is rather to be received in this dispute And this will easily appear if we consider That the notion followed by M. de Condom is grosly false in one of its parts as taking for true Believers persons who really are not so and can pretend to truth no further than as it is conformable to this second notion That it is not grounded upon an exact knowledg of its object but merely upon a charitable supposition which if niecly look'd into is not true it self And so there can be no robable argument for allowing evil men and hypocrites a part in Christ's Promises Those false plants which our heavenly father hath not planted Those tares which the Lord hath not sown in his field but the enemy râ—se by night to cast in privily Men not at all concerned in that Idea of the true Church which Scripture gives us and consequently not of it In a word this will easily appear that the notion we follow is the most exact the most certain the most agreeable to the Idea's given in Scripture and the only one that can bear any proportion to the Promises of Jesus Christ and the dignity of the true Church But it may be said Was not M. de Condom in the right to say there was not actually any visible Church but that which he defâ—â—es A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word And so no other than that which comprehends good and bad true Believers and Hypocrites And was it not fair then to make use of this notion in the Controversy I answer the true Church consisting of true Believers only is not indeed visible by any certain and distinct sight we can have of it so as to affirm positively and personally such or such are of the true Church When we would carry on this distinction to particular men disguise and hypocrisie put a stop to it so that in this sence the true Church will always continue invisible till Jesus Christ come to make a full and perfect separation betwixt his own Corn and the Enemies Tares which shall not be done till the end of the World Thus it is not visible not only immediately by its internal form in mens hearts but even by these external Characters as to certain and distinct visibility because dissimulation and deceit often makes these marks to be doubtful All this I grant But for all this we may and must say that the true Church is visible truly visible in other senses and respects For first of all it cannot be denied that it is visible at least materially as they say because the true Believers that appear visibly in publick Assemblies partake of the same Sacraments and live in the same external Order The faithful do not conceal themselves nor decline the Holy Exercises of Religion but on the contrary frequent them and shew themselves more than other men remembring that of St. Paul Not forsaking the assembling of our selves together Besides It is plain that tho the true Church be mixt with wicked men in the same profession yet is it visible in this very mixture as the wheat is visible tho in the same field with the tares and the good fish in the same net with the bad according to the parables in the Gospel or as true Friends are visible tho mixt with dissemblers and flatterers This mixture indeed hinders us from an exact distinction of persons but still we may with great certainty distinguish and discern two sorts of persons We are not sure which particular men are true Believers and which Hypocrites but we are sure that there are true Belivers as well as Hypocrites and this is enough to prove the Church visible according to the Scriptures and t. Austin's Hypothesis Nay I will go further yet for 't is true that upon some occasions Hypocrites do plainly distinguish themselves from true Believers and upon some other occasions true Believers do plainly make a personal distinction of themselves from Hypocrites For instance when we see men drowned in vices inconsistent with true Faith when we see them throw themselves into Superstitions and Errors that are contrary to the true Doctrine and Worship of God tho they abide still in the same Congregations with others and communicate in the same Sacraments yet this makes a negative distinction so as we may say these are not the true
Believers that is not of the true Church On the other side when we see men undergo long sharp tryals without being removed either from the profession of the true Doctrine and Worship or from that of Righteousness and Holiness in this respect here is made a positive distinction and such as makes us acknowledg that these persons are of the true Church of Jesus Christ I confess these distinctions are not always either so certain as never to admit of mistakes nor so universal as not to confound one with another For a man may judg rashly of both sorts either for want of knowing mens particular circumstances and the motives they went upon or some other way and it is never seen that all Hypocrites discover themselves at once But however there is great use to be made of this distinction and such a visibility of the true Church results from it as is in some sort personal according to our Hypothesis Now Sir you see whether M. de Condom was in the right to take it for granted as if it were a certain truth that there was no visible Church but such a one as he defined that comprehends good and bad true Believers and Worldlings contrary to the Scriptures and St. Augustin's sense You see too whether he was in the right to maintain in this first part of his discourse that we deny the Churches visibility The Pretended Reform'd says he will not have the visible Church to be that which is called Jesus Christ's Body Which is then that Body where God hath established some Apostles c. Which is that Body where God hath placed several Members and different Graces the Grace of Ministry the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church We never denied the visible Church upon Earth to be Christ's Body not the whole Body indeed for there is one part of it collected in Heaven and another not yet in being but still that part upon Earth is Jesus Christ's Body so the Scripture calls it and we are so far from thinking as he saies that quite contrary we prove Hypocrites and Worldlings to be really no part of the true visible Church by this very Argument that it is called in Scripture the Body of Jesus Christ For this reason the visible Church is thus defined in the 27th Article of our Confession of Faith The company of the Faithful agreeing to follow the Word of God and that pure Religion grounded thereon and who constantly make proficiency therein Now this Company of the Faithful thus described is and is called the Body of Jesus Christ If M. de Condom had been at the pains to read Calvin he would find him speaking of the visible Church in the 4th Book of his Institutions Chap. 1. thus It is no ordinary commendation the Scripture gives it when 't is said Ephes 5. 26 27. that Christ hath chosen it and separated it for his spouse to make her without spot and wrinkle his body and his fullness M. Mestrezzat speaking of the visible Church in the same sense says The instruments made use of by God to build his Church are the Pastors and Ministers of his Gospel Ephes 1. 23. according to that of St. Paul Ephes 4. He hath given some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the gathering together the Saints for the work of the Ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ And a little after The same Body of Christ which is invisible as to the Election of God and inward sanctification of the heart enjoys the visible Ministry of the Word and from it brings forth fruit unto salvation For we must not look for the Church of God out of this visible state of the Ministry of the Word The same thing I say with relation to that other passage of St. Paul where he says Ephes 5. 25 26 27. Jesus Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word That he might present it to himself a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle They will not have it possible says M. de Condom Conference Page 5. for this place to be understood of the visible Church not yet of the Church on Earth He must pardon me if I say he is mistaken for tho we understand by this the Church already in Heaven yet do we besides understand the visible Church upon Earth and M. Mestrezzat speaking of this passage saies expresly That St. Paul there sets forth the Church as one and the same Body receiving Grace and Glory and makes Glory to be the perfection and accomplishment of Grace It is evident then that the visible Church is in our Opinion Jesus Christ's Body or which comes all to one that the Body of Christ which is the true Church upon Earth is visible I should now conclude my Third Enquiry did I not think my self under an obligation to remove some difficulties which may be started upon it For it may be said the Ministry is common to good and bad and consequently it makes a Church composed of good men and bad I answer that the Ministry and the use of it is common both to good and bad comes to pass only by accident and from the treachery of the Enemy Of right it belongs to true Believers only and its genuine design was for them Jesus Christ gave it for the assembling of the Saints and instituted it to increase and cultivate his good Corn. If the Tares use it or to speak more truly abuse it this is contrary to his intention For his hand never sowed these but the enemy's who rose by night for that purpose It is sure then that the Ministry of it self does not make up a Church composed of good and bad men because such only as it was intended to gather are to be reckoned of his visible Church Now the Ministry is designed to gather the true Believers and truly Righteous not the worldlings and hypocrites in the least If they thrust themselves into the Assemblies it is not the Ministry that calls them but the spirit of the world that sends them thither An invincible argument that there is no other visible Church but what consists of true Believers because they are the only persons call'd to Religious Assemblies and it is not Jesus Christ but Jesus Christ's enemy that thrusts others into them To give you yet further satisfaction as to this Point permit me Sir to interpose between M. de Condom and St. Augustin not to set them at difference but endeavour to reconcile them M. de Condom assures me that Jesus Christ in that passage Tell it the Church spoke of a visible Church a Church visible by the exercise of the Ministry St. Augustin on the other side assuâ—es me that he speaks of
of Jesus Christ ceases to be visible but he would not be well-pleased for that reason to be taxed with saying he ceases to be there at all But however let M. de Condom put what sense he please upon our words it is certain we acknowledg the Church to be perpetually visible in the meaning I explain'd just now And M. de Condom could never have spent his time to less purpose than in taking such pains to confute an opinion which we never held against him Quest 4. What Church the Promises of Jesus Christ belong to whether that defined by M. de Condom a Society making profession to believe c. or that which we define A Society which making profession to govern it self by Christ's Word does really govern it self by it M. de Condom speaking of us in one place of his Discourse says They have not the Consolation which the Catholicks have to see Jesus Christ's promise visibly accomplisht and maintain'd during so many Ages They cannot shew a Church which has ever been since Jesus Christ came to build it on the Rock and to save his word they are obliged to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate which neither themselves nor any else can shew After having cleared the perpetual visibility of the Church as you lately saw judg you Sir what ground there is for his sayings we have not the consolation of seeing Jesus Christ's Promise visibly accomplish'd and maintain'd during so many Ages and whether we have not more than it is possible to have according to the Church of Romes principle M. de Condom according to his Principle sees the duration of a Church whose whole essence consists in an outward profession What is there in this more than human We see the duration of a Church whose essence consists in true Faith and Regeneration What is there in this that is not all Divine M. de Condom sees the duration of a Church supported by politick methods by paying a blind obedience to the injunctions of great men and those perhaps Hypocrites too What is there in this more than human We see the duration of a Church preserved in spight of confusion and all the froward malice of men What is there in this less than Divine They cannot says he shew a Church which hath ever been since Jesus Christ came to build it on the Rock Yes we shew this Church built on the Rock for when we shew the Body in which God nourishes and breeds up his true Believers we shew at the same time those true Believers which are his Church built on the Rock tho mixt with such as build on the Sand. When we shew the held where Jesus Christ sowed his good Seed we shew the Wheat tho there be Tares among it But let M. de Condom tell us if he think fit how he can shew us a Church built on the Rock making as he does the essence of the Church to consist entirely in an outward profession If he call this a Church upon the Rock Jesus Christ himself will reply for that such only are built upon a Rock who hear this word and do it whereas all besides are built upon the Sand. To save Christ's Word continues he they are obliged to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate Does M. de Condom blame us for seeking the accomplishment of Jesus Christ's Promises in the body of his Elect and true Believers Pray where should we look for it else In a croud of Hypocrites and Reprobates that have no Faith no Holiness no Piety but in outward appearance only Such as God never call'd and Jesus Christ shall one day tell he never knew them Is not this of Cardinal Bellarmin's Perron's and M. de Condoms a curious Church to the constituting whereof no inward virtue is necessarily required but merely an outward profession of Faith and communicating in the Sacraments A Church whose Unity the formal essence of it is that of an external Vocation not that of Predestination nor internal Faith nor a Vnion of Souls by the works of Love In a word a Church defined not by believing and governing it self by God's word but by making profession to believe and govern it self by God's VVord Is not this putting a mighty value upon Jesus Christ's Promises to apply them not only to profane and worldly men as well as the Saints and regenerate but to such a Church as would remain entire tho there were no true believers nor righteous men in it and not cease to be the true Church of Christ tho it were composed of Hypocrites and none else Thus far Sir there is no great perspicacity required to discern that the question in hand resolves it self there being little probability that Jesus Christ was so lavish of his Promises But however let us examine the matter a little more closely The first passage M. de Condom presents us with is that of St. Paul Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might cleanse it with the washing of Water by the Word that he might make it a glorious Church having neither spot nor wrinkle nor any such thing but that it might be holy and without blemish And a little after No man hateth his own flesh but nourisheth and cherisheth it even as the Lord the Church For we are members of his body of his flesh and of his bones We see in these words the obligation Jesus Christ put himself under to sanctify his Church to make it a glorious Church without spot or wrinkle holy and without blemish to nourish and cherish it as his own flesh and bones Our business is to know whether this obligation can upon any pretence whatever respect Hypocrites and wicked men And who will be perswaded it does This Church M. do Condom says is glorious because she glorifies God because she declares to all the Earth the Glory of Jesus Christ's Gospel and Cross Now as to the wicked of whom we are here treating there need but this one word be added That they glorify God and the Gospel in hypocrisy and dissimulation but in their hearts deny it Then see what God himself hath spoken as to this matter Vnto the ungodly said God why dost thou preach my laws and takest my Covenant in thy mouth This Church M. de Condom tells us is holy because she always constantly and without varying teaches the Holy Doctrine Add here But as for the wicked if they teach the holy Doctrine this is but with their lips and in shew only then see what St. Paul says They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof from such turn away This Church according to M. de Condom hath neither spot nor wrinkle because she hath neither any evil Error nor any evil Maxim and because she instructs and contains in her bosom the Elect of God Add But as for sinners They follow Truth and Right only in pretence Then see what
could heartily have wisht that M. de Condom would have reflected a little upon the use St. Paul made of this instance of Israel in Elijah's time because it is exactly the same with what the Protestant Ministers make of it now It was objected to the Apostle that from his Principles it would follow that God had cast away his people in as much as the whole Body of that people had crucified Jesus Christ and walked contrary to his new Religion if therefore he would undertake to maintain his new Religion was the Right he must at the same time own that God had forsaken his Church No says he God hath not cast away his people for there is a remnant through the election of Grace and hereupon he alledges what happened to Israel heretofore in Elijah's time when God reserved to himself Seven thousand men in secret that had not bowed the knee to Baal What can be more exactly parallel than the use he makes of this passage and that the Protestants make 'T is objected to us that from our Principles it follows God hath cast away his Church because the whole Body of that Church condemns our Reformation and walks contrary to our new Religion They teach that this visible exterior Church may cease to be upon Earth says M. de Condom No such matter say we God hath not deserted his Church there is a remnant according to the Election of Grace and in proof of this we urge the instance of Israel heretofore in Elijah's time If to charge the Protestants with unsincerity for alledging this were at the same time to charge St. Paul If the exception of Judah where the worship in Elias his time was in great lustre were good and to be admitted against us the same was also good and to be admitted against the Apostle For what do we more than he did or what do we say but what we have learnt from Him ought to be said in this Case Let St. Paul then acquit himself and he shall in doing so acquit us Now this is done without any difficulty for he need only Answer that the exception does not make at all against him The business is to know which is the true people of God his true Church which he never forsakes Now it is plain by God's answer to Elijah that this is not the Croud the vast Number not the party of greatest strength or which makes most noise in the World but some persons reserved a remnant according to the election of Grace these are his true people and his true Church Tho Judah had still maintain'd the Divine Worship in its greatest lustre yet does not this detract from the truth of God's declaration made to Elias viz. that his true people his true Church consists of this Remnant or these Persons reserved This is all St. Paul desires this is likewise all the Protestants desire to make of it Lord says Elijah they have broken down thine Altars and slain thy Prophets with the sword and I only am left Had God made his Church to consist in an exterior Body of men who should preserve his worship in a constant uninterrupted purity what could have been more natural than to return this answer Wherefore dost thou complain have I not still my Church in Judah The Cardinal du Perron would have replied exactly thus and from him it is that M. de Condom hath borrowed this shift Yet God answers in a very different manner he fixes his true Church not in the exterior Body but in the Persons he had reserved The Apostle takes the advantage of an Argument against what the Jews in his time objected and we in like manner take the same advantage against what is objected to us now Afterward M. de Condom frames to himself an Objection drawn from the Disorders and horrible Corruptions predominant in Judah during the Reign of Ahaz who shut up the Temple of God and caused Vrijah the Priest to sacrifice unto Idols and afterward under Manasseh whose Impieties transcended those of Ahaz To which he answers first That Isaiah who lived during all the Reign of Ahaz for all these abominations of the King of the Priest Urijah and almost all the People never separated from the Communion of Judah which shews that there is always a People of God from whose Communion 't is never lawful to separate Laying aside for one minute the business of Separation we must in the mean time of necessity grant that this exterior Society called the People of God were prodigiously corrupted in matters of Faith and Worship that their Corruption was publick and general diffused not among some private Persons only but through the whole Body of the ordinary Ministry So that the true Church that to which the Promises of God belong that which must not be interrupted nor totally fail must be acknowledged to consist not in the whole Body of this exterior Society but merely in the Body of true Believers who it is possible may sometimes be reduced to a very inconsiderable number of this Society and scarce make any Figure at all in it We must likewise acknowledge it possible for such an universal Corruption to happen in this Society that there shall be no longer any thing perfectly sound and entire in it that is nothing in the publick Worship without some tincture of impurity For at the same time that Ahaz Reigned in Judah and the Corruption was general there Pekah was King in Isreal who says the Scripture did evil in the sight of the Lord and departed not from the sins of Jeroboam who made Israel to sin So that the publick Worship was then corrupted every where as well in Israel as Judah What then became of M. de Condom's exterior Church which he says can never err in her Determinations Where was then that Church which does not only maintain some truth but teaches and maintains all truth Well but still M. de Condom tells us Isaiah never separated from the Communion of this People no more than did the rest of the Prophets Now this very thing strengthens our Argument and renders it impregnable because from hence it necessarily follows that there was not in any place of the World besides any publick Worship nor any Exterior Body at all little or great that served God in perfect Purity So that we must inevitably allow one of these two things Either that the Church was at that time utterly extinct or that it was preserved in this Remnant which we see God spoke of to Elijah The first of these destroys the Promises of God the second establishes our Opinion and quite overthrows that of the Romanists Let us now examine how Isaiah and the other Prophets not separating from the Body of the People is to be understood Can we suppose them to have been partakers of the Wickednesses that then prevailed in the publick Worship By no means These Prophets M. de Condom says
reprehended and detested the impieties of the People but separated not from the Communion The meaning of which is that they separated negatively tho not positively they refused to partake of the Impieties in the publick Worship but they did not set up another sort of publick Worship distinct by themselves I grant it But then we must also grant that when the Worship is corrupted the Church may subsist by means of such a Negative Separation and that this is sufficient for its preservation Now this is exactly what we are of Opinion was done during the Corruptions of the Latin Ministry all along before the Reformation But still it may be said These Prophets never proceeded so far as a positive Separation and you have I answer The Reason they never separated positively was peculiar to themselves as M. de Condom himself acknowledges to wit that over and above the real and spiritual Covenant God had entred into with such as were true Believers among that People there was besides another Exterior and Temporal one in which the whole Nation were concern'd founded upon their being the Blood and Progeny of Abraham and all bearing about them the Mark of this Covenant to wit Circumcision in their Flesh so that the true Believers were obliged upon this account to continue in Communion with the People and could not separate from them positively by reason of that common Covenant which they might not break But the case is otherwise with the Christian Church which hath but one Covenant with God and that a real and spiritual one of true Faith and sincere Regeneration when therefore we can no longer maintain this Covenant by living amongst a People and under a Ministry which is become contrary thereto there lies a necessity upon us of separating by a positive Separation And yet M. de Condom pretends to make some advantage of this very thing He says The Succession of that Ancient People was kept up by carnal Generation and so tho the Priests and almost all the People should have prevaricated the State of Gods People subsisted always in an exterior Form whether they would or no. But 't is not so with the new People whose exterior Form consists in nothing but the Profession of Jesus Christ's Doctrine So that if the Confession of the true Faith should be extinct for one only moment the Church which has no Succession but by the Continuance of this Profession would be wholly extinct without any possibility of ever rising again either in its People or Pastors but by a new Mission I confess That carnal Generation was in that Ancient People enough to keep up their Succession in Quality of Gods People with Relation to that temporal Covenant common to them all Tho it be true too that this Quality was but very imperfectly discerned in times of general Prevarications because if they were then Gods temporal People they were a vicious and prevaricating People But I say that carnal Generation was not enough to maintain among them a Succession with respect to the spiritual Covenant because the Succession here could be preserved no other way but by a Participation of the same Faith and the same Charity Now the Covenant in which the new People live is not any longer a carnal one but purely and solely Spiritual and consequently the Succession in it can only consist in this perpetual Participation of one and the same Faith and one and the same Charity In this particular the Condition of both old and new People are alike As therefore in that Ancient People there did still continue a Succession of Faith and Charity tho the publick Worship and ordinary Ministry were full of strange Corruptions in like manner hath such a Succession always continued in the new even in the midst of all Corruptions God had then his methods of teaching the reserved and keeping them from partaking in the publick Prevarications the same he hath still and useth to the same purpose altho the Ministry and publick Worship have not preserved their Purity I confess should a full and perfect desertion of Christianity ever have happened throughout all the Christian World and not one true Believer be left upon the face of the Earth a man might say the Church had been utterly extinct But blessed be God it never came to that We acknowledg that God hath all along preserved his Remnant according to the Election of Grace We acknowledg too that the publick Ministry was never so totally corrupted but still all that was necessary for the Instruction of Believers was so far kept up that the spiritual Succession was always preserved intire by receiving from the Ministers hands nourishment sufficient unto spiritual Life on the one hand and casting away all the evil and impure Mixtures of the Ministry on the other hand and this is that negative Separation we spoke of before The exterior Form of Jesus Christs true Church does not so absolutely consist in the Ministries making profession of Faith pure and void of Error that it cannot otherwise subsist any longer I confess when this is done the Church is in a happy Condition and if I may so say a Condition of Health But when this is not done the exterior Form does not presently perish upon that account because this consists in our being able to say That is the Body where God nourishes and cherishes his true Believers as I have already shewn when treating of my second question Could we no longer say thus the Church would have lost its external Form and its Succession have ceased to be visible But this might at all times be said even when the Ministry and publick Worship was most corrupted and so the Churches visible Succession was never quite lost It hath indeed been mightily lessened and obscured in Proportion to the Errors that prevailed in the Ministry and this was the Churches Condition of Misery it 's sick and languishing Condition which nevertheless went not so far as to hinder this Succession M. de Condom goes on I will not say the true Faith and true Worship of God could be wholly abolisht in the People of Israel so as that God had no more any true Servants on Earth But I find on the contrary 't is clear that maugre the Corruption God still reserved to himself a sufficient number of Servants who participated not in the Idolarty Herein we agree for neither do we say That the true Faith and true Worship could ever have been wholly abolisht among Christians but on the contrary that maugre the Corruption God hath always reserved to himself a sufficient number of Servants who have not participated in the Prevarications of the rest So far the case is the same 'T is not to be imagined proceeds he that Gods Servants and the true Faith were preserved only in secret but that in all the Succession of the Ancient People the true Doctrine always shone forth For there was a continual Succession of Prophets
who instead of adhering to the Peoples Errors or dissembling them rose up against them with force and this Succession was so constant that the Holy Ghost fears not to say That God rose up Night and Morning and daily admonisht the People by the Mouth of his Prophets M. de Condom must give us leave to make some Observations upon this Passage The first of which is that in the Corruptions of Israel heretofore when the publick Worship and ordinary Ministry suffered such Depravation there was not any where in the World another publick Worship or another Ministry that was preserved in Purity and Perfection So that if men must needs have lookt for the Church in the Body of the Peoples living under their ordinary Pastors and in the publick worship as he is of opinion we now must under the Gospel there could not have been any longer a Church upon Earth because his own Principle maintains that if this visible and exteriour Church composed of Pastors and People do not keep and teach all truth that is if She teach any thing that is false She is not the Church I observe secondly That in the very same place where God is said to rise up Night and Morning and daily admonish the People by the Mouth of his Prophets it is also said That all the chief of the Priests and the People trespassed wonderfully according to all the Abominations of the Heathen and polluted the House of the Lord which he had sanctified in Jerusalem It is said further too That they mocked the Messengers of God and despised his Words and misused his Prophets Which shews that both People and Priests were generally corrupted and the Church reduced to a Remnant I confess some certain Persons of this Remnant did not keep silence but instead of adhering to or dissembling the Peoples Errors opposed them strongly But besides that a great many more no question sighed in secret for these things it is manifest that this Remnant did not make a separate Body by themselves nor exercise any publick Worship different from the rest And consequently the Churches visibility tho not wholly extinct yet was mightily darkned and diminished and that is all we would infer from hence My third Observation is That there was indeed in that Ancient People a continued Succession of Prophets and as M. de Condom says a Prophetical Ministry ordinary with the People where the Prophets made an Order always subsisting whence God continually drew Divine Men by whose Mouth he spake loudly and publickly to all his People But then we must say withal that the Body of this Order of Prophets were every whit as corrupt as the Priests and People This cannot be denied for the Scripture affirms it expresly The Priests said not where is the Lord and they that should Minister the Law knew me not the Pastors also offended against me and the Prophets prophesied in Baal The Prophets prohesie lies and the Priests bear rule by their means and my People love to have it so I have heard what the Prophets said that Prophesie lies in my Name saying I have dreamed How long shall this be in the hearts of the Prophets that Prophesie lies Yea they are Prophets of the deceit of their own heart Which think to cause my People to forget my Name by their Dreams which they tell every Man to his Neighbour as their Fathers have forgotten my Name for Baal And a vast number of Passages to the like purpose So that we cannot say there was at that time any visible Body that opposed the Corruptions or maintained the Worship of God in its genuine Purity The Prophets by whom God spoke so loudly and publickly were only lookt upon as private Persons of an Opinion different from the generality of the Society And therefore how loudly and publickly soever they spoke if in order to the constituting a Visible Church it be necessary to find a Body or Society of Men making Profession of pure Doctrine M. de Condom must acknowledg that there was not then any Visible Church in the World And now Sir give me leave I beseech you to ask with what pretence to Reason men can still cavil at this instance of the Corruptions in Israel heretofore and not own it for a sensible Proof that confirms most of the Truths established in the former part of this Letter In it you see the several Bodies that made up the ordinary Ministry all of them ensnared in Idolatry and false Worship In it you see the whole Body of the People blindly following the exorbitancies of their Guides In it you see the true Church of God subsisting not in an exterior Society enjoying its Ministers Assemblies and publick Worship peculiar to its self but in some reserved Persons that still maintained their Integrity in the midst of all these Confusions In it you see God himself and after him St. Paul making his true People to consist in these Persons so reserved All this proves and proclaims to the World That the true Church consists of true Believers only That this Church is not otherwise visible but as mixt with wicked Men and Reprobates That this mixture does sometimes so obscure it that it is very difficult to come to a knowledg of it That it does nevertheless still subsist even in that state of obscurity And that in these true Believers and Persons whom God has reserved he does fulfil the Promises of Perpetuity made to the Church I close this Letter with sincere Protestations That it is much to my dissatisfaction that I find my self obliged to put Pen to paper in a Dispute against M. de Condom I have all along had and ever shall have not only all the Respect for him which is due to his Quality and Station but more especially I esteem his Virtue so universally acknowedged and admire his Perfections and the excellent Gifts God hath imparted to him as they really deserve In our Conference I observed in him a Wit lively and piercing a clear Apprehension a proper and easy way of Expression and especially an extraordinary Candour and Civility of Behaviour He maintain'd his Principles with all the strength and advantage imaginable made them look as fair and specious as it was possible for any man and managed them with abundance of Skill and Address In a word I was strangely taken with the Accomplishments of his Person and did often feel such kind Inclinations and Wishes as Men should do upon such Occasions My Sentiments of Honour and Respect for him are sincere but the more they are so the more frequent I must complain of one thing inserted by him in his Discourse with Mademoiselle de Duras and that is That in our Religion we believe there is a point of time when a Christian is obliged to doubt whether the Scripture was inspired by God whether the Gospel is a Truth or a Fable whether Jesus Christ was a Deceiver or a
the perpetuity of the Church be imagined to mean a continuance of this exterior Body in the same condition without undergoing any alteration or a constant equal succession of Priests People Sees and Councils This might be admitted if all this exterior body were the true Church of Jesus Christ if that were not mixt with worldlings and wicked men who change the Church as to outward appearances or if it's Ministry were sure to be always intrusted in the hands of good men But the case being otherwise these Promises must be confined to the true Believers and the Church conceived to subsist for ever in this mixture of wicked persons and consequently that it shall subsist sometimes among the publick corruptions of the Ministry to which Almighty God sets bounds as his wisdom sees fit for the preservation of his Children We must not any longer believe a supream visible and speaking authority in the Church to be necessary for putting an end to differences and disputes nor upon this pretence allow Ecclesiastical Assemblies to be infallible or forbid the faithful to examine their determinations This might pass if the Church were I reserved as Civil Societies are by rules of humane policy or if some temporal advantages were the only thing enquired after or if the matters so determined required only an outward compliance as those in Civil Societies do But now that the Church is under a protection infinitely more effectual than all the wisdom of Man now that Salvation is the thing in question and a submission of Conscience the thing required it must be confest that since Divine Revelation ceased there is no further need of any other supreme infallible Authority besides that of the Scripture which is the Churches Law its Oracle and perpetual Rule a Rule plain and clear in what it expresses in all things necessary to be believed plain and clear in its silence with relation to other things not necessary to be believed It must be owned that since God does not call men to Ministerial functions immediately and by himself it may happen that these Functions may generally be exercised by Reprobates and to suppose that such people as these who can challenge no share in God's Promises to his Church are infallible would be the most palpable absurdity in the World We must acknowledg that since it is so uncertain whether the men that make up these Assemblies are themselves really of Jesus Christ's Church it would be not only rash but wicked to receive their Decrees implicitly and submit to them without any Examination at all because this were really to put our Salvation upon the venture which ought to be infinitely dearer to us than any thing in the World and which if once lost can never be made amends for again Lastly we must not upon these pretended Principles take up Prejudices against the Protestant Churches nor tax them with Novelty because they are not united to this visible exterior Body which was before the Reformation or because they do not shew that uniform succession of Sees and Councils and the profession of the same Religion without any alteration at all and every thing as was practised before nor pretend they have subverted a Tribunal necessary for the subsistence of the true Church because they refuse to acknowledg the Church of Rome's Authority and to comply with her determinations These several charges upon us might be tolerably well laid if a man could assert that the Church consists of all this exterior body as it might be asserted if a Civil Society were the matter in question But being that body must be distinguished into two parts the one consisting of good the other of ill men the one of good Corn the other of Tares the Protestant Church cannot be called new if it only oppose this latter part which had gotten possession of all the outward advantages to wit the Ministry the Sees the Churches the Councils the Schools and in one word the Exterior Profession and which had changed and corrupted all these For is there any necessity that a Church should groan under the same oppression in order to being the same with a Church that was before Is there a necessity of lying under the Tares that choak'd and encompassed the Corn in order to being of the Corn And are not men the same Children of Jacob without being among the same strangers among whom that Family hath been The Protestants have not one jot the less really and truly a succession of Sees of Councils and the profession of Religion for not having that part of them which was earthly and unclean I acknowledg they have given quite another aspect and appearance to the House of God by this cleansing but still there is the same Ministry the same Sees the same Assemblies the same Profession not with respect to the corruptions that appeared in them but in regard of the Christian Order which still continued under all this filth and nastiness The vessels of the Temple are still the same only they are washed made clean and restored to their natural use And as for that pretended Tribunal of the Romish Church which the Reformation has subverted it never having any more foundation than what was imaginary and merely humane there is no reason to complain of the Protestants for not submitting to it because they would thereby have done wrong to that of the Scripture which is Jesus Christ's true Tribunal fixed and to continue for ever in the midst of his people But this shewing the many differences between the Church and Civil Societies is not the only method of confuting these Gentlemen's Principles Take which way you will their falsity and weakness is easily discovered and they are likewise attended with this inconvenience that as soon as one of them is overthrown all the rest fall with it Overthrow for instance but that one principle that the true Church must be an exterior visible Body even to the pointing out of the particular persons whereof it is composed and at the same time you overthrow all those definitions they give of it which include bad men as well as good and make reprobates to be no less members than the Elect you overthrow their application of God's Promises to this whole Body you overthrow its perpetuity in this Condition by virtue of those Promises you overthrow the necessity of this pretended external Succession upon which they lay such mighty stress you evacuate the supreme Authority and Infallibility of Church Assemblies and the blind obedience required to their determinations The case is the same with all their other principles particularly which must of necessity either all stand or all fall together I might truly say that you can no where observe a Systeme more effectually destroyed in the several parts of it than this is in the Book now published by me For there is not any one of the propositions that help to make that Systeme but I have confuted it substantially by Arguments that
amount even to a Demonstration Which way can any one maintain that Definition of the Church which goes upon a bare outward profession and makes it consist of bad as well as good men and which Stapleton Bellarmin Cardinal du Perron and some other Controversial Divines look upon as a principal point after having observed what I have written on this subject in the second question of the Letter to my Friend and the Examination of M. de Meaux's ninth Reflection What pretence can men have for carrying on the Churches visibility so far as to a plain particular and constant designation of mens persons that help to make up that Body after having considered what is said to this purpose in my Third Question and in the Examination of M. de Meaux's Eleventh Reflection How can men fancy that Jesus Christ's Promises belong to this exterior Body composed of good and bad men promiscuously after what I have written to this purpose upon the fourth Question and the Examination of the Twelfth Reflection Which way can the External Succession be defended in the sense these Gentlemen understand it after having weighed my answer to the Second Part of M. de Condom 's Discourse and compared it with my Examination of the Eighth and Thirteenth Reflection What can be sâ—â—d in behalf of the Supreme Authority Church Assemblies pretend to and the ready Obedience to them without any trying their decisions which these Gentlemen would make us believe ought to be paid them after having compared the Relation of our Conference with what I have written on the Six first Reflections I must confess the strength of my Reasons may possibly receive some disadvantage from the manner of my delivering them and that it required a more skilful hand than mine which might have spoke with all the elegance and address of my renowned Adversary But yet I dare aver that even in my plain way and in the midst of all my bluntness there will be found enough to satisfy and convince my Readers That the Systeme treated of is upon many accounts quite destroyed both as to the whole and as to each of its parts I am sensible this Systeme is a thing contrived with abundance of cunning and skill that it was never the invention of one single Brain that they have made it look as specious as the thing could possibly bear But all the skill and cunning in the World can never give a thing so great a lustre as Truth and it is plain that That Systeme can never be true which is repugnant to the evidence both of Scripture and Reason I may add too that notwithstanding all the pains taken to contrive it as strong as might be they are forced to leave it with many weaknesses which it was impossible for them to conceal Nay such a Systeme particularly is This which contradicts experience and contradicts it so far too that were the Church of Rome it self for whose advantage it was first establish'd to be tryed by these Principles that compose it she could not make her party good Let us if you please venture an experiment upon that principle which asserts the perpetuity of the same Exterior Body Will you take the confidence to call that of the three first Ages the same Body with the modern Church of Rome where there is not the least tittle to be found of direct Invocation of Saints and Angels in the publick service of the Church where there is not the least addressing to Images and Pictures in their worship where there is no prohibition of the Cup to the Laity nor of the use of Scripture in the vulgar Tongue without leave granted by the Ordinary nor of Praying in a Language which the people do not understand where we find nothing to the contrary but that the Scripture is the only and the sufficient Rule of Faith in all things necessary to Salvation where we meet with no such number of Sacraments as seven no use made of Papal Indulgences no necessity of Auricular Confession no Elevation of the Host that the people may prostrate themselves in adoration to it no Transubstantiation nor Real presence made Doctrines no mention of the Church of Rome's being the Mother and Mistress of all other Churches nor of I know not how many things besides which are of very considerable importance Will you call the Church of Rome as it stands at this day as it looks upon the opinion of the Mâ—llenaries to be erroneous as it prohibits giving the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper to little Children as it believes the beatifick vision of God antecedent to the last Judgment as it forbids the Clergy to Marry will you call this I say the same Exterior Body with the Primitive Church which believed and practised directly the contrary To call this the same Body is like Theseus his Ship which was always called the same Ship tho there was scarce a Plank in it all that had not been changed A Second experiment may be made in that Principle which relates to the Succession in Episcopal Sees as these Gentlemen are pleased to understand it For how can they ever maintain this Succession in the See of Rome which they look upon as the very Original and Centre of Church-Unity while they agree as they do that many of those Popes were intruders against all Law and Custom and consequently false Popes such as Baronius calls Violent seizers of the Apostolick See unlawful Vsurpers of the Papal Name and Chair False Popes which only served to make the times they lived in notorious And now seeing this intrusion continued for almost one whole Age and the call to all Ecclesiastical Functions depends upon the See of Rome what must we think of those which proceeded from these false Popes and those that followed after them How can they make good this Succession in the person of Vigilius who by their own confession was an Usurper of the See over Sylverius and a Schismatick excommunicated he and all his party that adhered to him by Sylverius the rightful Pope Which adherents were not only all the Clergy of Rome but all the Archbishops and Bishops of the Empire excepting only four Bishops that were banisht with Sylverius and joyned with him in signing the sentence of Excommunication Sylverius dyed Vigilius kept the Papacy still and yet the Excommunication was not taken off It is acknowledged to be a just and valid sentence and yet from these excommunicated persons are all the Popes Patriarchs Primates Archbishops and Bishops descended ever since Baronius in the relation of this Accident endeavours all he can to deprive us of the Conclusions we draw from it He tells us therefore that he guesses Vigilius acted a part all that while and that being informed of Sylverius his death he of his own accord resigned the Popedom usurped by him before and at the same time got the Clergy of Rome to chuse him into it again This conjecture he grounds upon four
few by preserving the true Faith will also preserve all the Priviledges of Jesus Christs Church All this is exactly what we assert in this case The Abbot of Palermo's opinion was likewise common to many of the Schools Occam a famous Doctor among the Schoolmen of the fourteenth Age hath composed a Dialogue on this Subject where among other questions he discusses these six principal ones 1. Whether a Pope that is Canonically chosen can afterwards turn Heretick 2. Whether the Colledg of Cardinals may fall into Heresie 3. Whether it be possible for the Pope and Cardinals together to fall into it 4. Whether it be so for the Church of Rome and Apostolick See to fall into it 5. Whether a General Council may fall into it 6. Whether even the Body of Christians may fall into it He affirms that as many held the Negative in these Points so there were a great many too that held the affirmative and he gives you the reasons urged by both sides for their several opinions I know very well that he was engaged in that silly quarrel between John the 22 d and the Franciscan Friers which took up almost the whole life of that Pope to know whether the Friers had any proper right to the bread they eat or only the bare use of it and whether Jesus Christ and his Apostles had likewise any proper right to the things they used But this is no argument why such an Authors Testimony should not be unexceptionable when he asserts as matter of fact that the six forementioned questions were disputed pro and con among the Learned men of his time There is likewise a testimony of John Francis Picus Mirandula which flourished in the beginning of the Fifteenth Age which he gives us in his Theoremes concerning the Faith After having said something to their opinion who make either a Pope or a Council Infallible he adds these words Others there are that oppose this opinion by saying that Councils may err and actually bave erred as for instance the Council of Arimini the second Council of Ephesus that of Constantinople concerning Images and that of Aix la Chapelle about the marriage of Virgins that were forced And if these say they have erred others may err as well as they whereupon some hold that such General Councils as the Pope does not preside in by his Authority may err but those where he does cannot To which others return that the Council of Ephesus was lawfully convened that the Pope's Legates presided in it and yet the Faith was subverted there and the regulation of this very matter was it that moved Pope Leo to call the Council of Chalcedon They say further that their pretending to find out remedies for knowing when two Councils clash whether of the two a man ought to hold to is an evident sign that General Councils may err It is certain then that the Doctrine we now assert when we affirm that even the most numerous Assemblies are liable to error that they may consist of such men as shall not be of the true Church and consequently may fall off from their function is neither a new Doctrine nor any opinion we are driven to for the justfying our Reformation but an old Doctrine which the evidence of Truth hath always suggested to sincere and unbiassed men So that if M. de Meaux had but pleased to reflect a little upon this he would not have said as he did That it was a Monster the birth whereof was reserved for the time of the New Reformation It is convenient sometimes to be a little more advised and sparing in passing ones judgment It would questionless be very foul to conclude form what hath been just now said against the absolute Authority and Infallibility of Ecclesiastical Assemblies that we quite cast off all these humane Orders for the external guidance and government of the Church To six any such opinions as this upon us would be the unjustest thing in the world Our Confessions of Faith our Discipline and the Writings of our Authors as well as our constant practice in all places are a vindication of us in this particular beyond all scruple or exception First then we hold the Ministry to be of Divine Institution and consequently become necessary by the necessity of a Command and that tho the use of it is not absolutely necessary by the necessity of the means for the Existence of the Church it is however of such excellent use and advantage in order to the preserving and propagating of the Church that to go about to take it away would be a manifest impiety Secondly We are of opinion that in matters of Discipline relating to the publick such as the manner and form of Religious Assemblies of Administring the Sacraments and others of this kind these should be left to the determination of Ecclesiastical Assemblies and provided they bring in no Rite offensive to the Conscience or contrary to the nature of the Evangelical Worship an absolute obedience is due to them Further yet We allow these Ecclesiastical Assemblies a power of Censuring private persons and proceeding to the last and highest Censure that of Excommunication And although we make no question at all but this power may sometimes be abused by them and unjust sentences pronounced yet we think that out of veneration for the Order a man ought to suffer such to be executed upon him provided this do not engage us in any thing that may wound a good conscience As for matters of Faith Worship and general Rules for ordering mens Manners we are perswaded that these Assemblies continuing the subordination to one another may not only attain to the knowledg of them by the Word of God but that they must and ought to do so for preventing the encrease of error and the preserving Gods truth in its genuine purity It is part of their office and business to restrain the exorbitances of mens minds to help the weak and to the utmost of their power cherish and maintain publick peace in the midst of this Society But because on one hand the persons making these Assemblies are neither inspired nor infallible nor have any power over mens consciences and on the other hand because no body can be sure that they are good men and will discharge their duty faithfully there being so many several sorts of by-respects that influence men when the Spirit of God does not guide them we think it a very faulty indifference and a manifest slighting a man's own salvation to reveive their decisions blindfold and upon trust without any trial or examination of them at all But still though we think this examination highly just and indispensably necessary yet we think withal it is to be used with abundance of caution Besides that it must be undertaken in the fear of God and with a disposition full of modesty and Christian humility besides that we must beg for grace from above and not presume upon our own
abilities besides that we must bring along with us not only charitable but reverent and respectful thoughts of such Assemblies and judg favourably of them till we have manifest conviction of the contrary Besides all this I say the ignorant sort of people must not be too rash in offering to interpose their judgments about matters which either are not plainly exprest in Scripture or naturally and necessarily deduced from thence They must satisfie themselves with using these two ways The Scriptures being silent And the clear and plain instructions to be met with there From its being silent they must learn to reject what it does not teach for strange and novel Doctrines For whatever is not in Scripture is not of Divine Revelation and nothing that is not revealed by God can be the object of Faith By the clear and plain Instructions to be met with there they must learn to embrace the Doctrines necessary for Salvation and to reject all things contrary to the same as dangerous and destructive Errors And this is sufficient for the more ignorant sort of people As for other particulars for which no certain rule can be given neither from the Scriptures being silent nor from the plain and clear instructions contained in it nor by natural inferences deduced from thence before they either receive them or condemn them they must endeavour to get information by such means as God hath discovered and established in his Church and in the mean time entertain a good opinion of the Assemblies determinations Thus they will preserve their Faith incorrupt and sufficient for Salvation they will pay to Assemblies their due respects and keep themselves in the peace and unity of the Church If the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion are not content with this but still would have us believe whatever such Assemblies may determine blindfold we must beg of them to consider That to exclude thus all manner of amendment is to open a mighty inlet to Error and Superstition 't is an exposing believers to a manifest danger of having their Faith corrupted and themselves damned in a word 't is perfectly to ruine Christianity unless the goodness of God interpose with some remedy Will not these Gentlemen who are so ready at exclaiming against the inconveniencies that may possibly proceed from our principle at last open their eyes and take a view of what their own hath actually produced already Transubstantiation Purgatory Indulgences Merit of Good-works worshipping of Images and Relicks Service in an unknown Tongue and a thousand other devotions which have no great appearance of wisdom in them These are the products of their pretended Infallibility and all this they are forced to defend now because they would not lose the point of an implicit obedience And now if I were speaking any thing here concerning the occasion of this dispute between the Bishop of Meaux and me or the Circumstances that went before or followed after our Conference the world will easily perceive I do it because this Bishop hath already been at the trouble of giving the publick a sufficient account of them One word only I must say which respects one of our Auditors Mr. Cotton who no doubt would have received a better Character from M. de Meaux had he been so happy as to be known to him more particularly Mr. Cotton is a Gentleman of great honour and wants neither apprehension nor judgment he understands his Religion and though dispute be no part of his business is well versed in the main Controversies between us If his modesty or some other considerations prevailed upon him to say something that lookt like declining to engage in dispute with M. de Meaux I do not think he ought to have taken his words in their strict and literal sense As for the difference between our two Relations I leave it as M. de Meaux hath done to the Reader 's judgment He hath observed very wisely that let him say what he would of me it was in my power to say the same of him That all our Auditors were interested on one side or other and that the world hath nothing at all to do with our proceedings To all which let me add that I will not give any occasion for any private quarrel with a person I honour to that degree that I do M. de Meaux The only thing I need say more is concerning the method I have observed in this Book It is divided into Two Parts The first contains an Answer to the Instruction given Mademoiselle de Duras by this Bishop the day before our Conference together with an Examination of his Reflexions upon that Answer beginning at the ninth and going on to the thirteenth inclusively The second part contains a Relation of what past in our Conference with an Examination of M. de Meaux's Reflexions thereupon which are his eight first This method in my opinion is very natural And now as I have made it my business to be very exact and past nothing in his whole Book over without giving a direct Answer to it so I hope that when he shall think fit to set Pen to Paper against me next he will be as exact and apply himself as close to the pinch of the Question and not imagine as men commonly do that provided they can but pick up here and there some loose passages and from thence start a few difficulties and objections there need no more be done and this must go for a full Answer I beseech God to shed forth his Blessing upon an undertaking wherein the only Ends I proposed to my self were his Glory and the Illustration of the Truth Thus much I am encouraged to hope from his mercy and that as he hath hitherto preserved his little Ship the Church in the midst of the billows and storms of the world he will still continue to preserve her as he hath promised even to the end of the world AN ADVERTISEMENT FROM THE TRANSLATOR TO THE READER WHEN persons of M. de Meaux's and Mr. Claude's Character engage and in a Controversy so important too as that between the Church of Rome and those who have separated from her Men must naturally be desirous to know the management and issue of such a debate For besides what expectations the reputation of their Learning and Judgment might raise This is a Cause that scarce any body in our part of the World can be supposed perfectly indifferent in Every Reader must look on These not only as Disputants but Advocates and even they who design no more than the gratifying their curiosity by perusing such Conferences do yet insensibly find themselves affected with some degree of Concern The particular Argument insisted upon here is likewise of the highest consequence for it cannot but be a mighty help and direction to know exactly how far we are obliged to comply with the Churches Decisions in matters of Faith In what Cases we may venture to depend upon our own Collections from Reason and
the curiosity you have to see what I wrote upon the same subject the next day after our Interview M. de Condom having profest it was not his desire that what past between him and me should be publickly talked of I thought my self under an obligation to confine what I had written to my own Study And this hath been hitherto very punctually observed by me But now since he hath thought fit to give out Copies of his I have reason to believe that in this respect he leaves me perfectly to my liberty and is well satisfied I should do the same thing with mine I have too great an opinion of M. de Condom's Wisdom not to follow his Example in this particular and I promise my self from his Equity that he will not find fault with me for treading in his steps But because he hath been pleased to impart to us that Discourse also which he had with Mademoiselle de Duâ—as in private the day before our Conference you will think it convenient that before I transcribe my Relation I should first make some reflections upon That Were this a discourse of such a nature as common occasions or accidents are used to produce where a man speaks without preparation or design and delivers himself with all the freedom imaginable I confess it were unjust to examine it strictly and by rule But seeing this was composed by M. de Condom with a prospect of obliging Mademoiselle de Duras to change her Religion and which seems a studied piece a Discourse which he hath joyned to the account of our Conference as a considerable part of what past in this matter Lastly a Discourse committed to Writing upon supposal that it may be useful to others and for that purpose made in some measure publick I cannot forbear looking upon it as a work of premeditation and returning some answer to it accordingly Besides that you and I are concerned as to what Mademoiselle de Duras hath done to desire to know whether she had sufficient reasons to forsake your Communion and embrace the Romish and the examination of this Discourse will be a very proper means of clearing that point to us Now it may be reduced to two principal Parts In the first M. de Condom makes it his business to shew that the Catholick or Universal Church which we profess to believe in the Creed is a Church thus defined A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Whence he infers That it is a visible Society He pretends also to make it appear that to this Church thus defin'd belong all the promises found in Scripture In the Second He labours to answer an Objection drawn from what happened to the Church of Israel heretofore in which we often see the true Worship of God to have been changed and corrupted and both the People and their Guides to have fallen into Idolatry These two Parts Sir we will prosecute in order and by applying our selves to what is most material in them will endeavour by the assistance of God's Grace to make the Truth so evident as shall remove all difficulties The first Part of M. de Condom's discourse examin'd Instead of granting the Ministers says M. de Condom to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the mouth I believe the Catholick or Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians say with the mouth I believe in Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholick Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important an Article of the Creed You must know then what is meant by this expression The Catholick or Universal Church and upon this I lay for my ground That in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians Now all Christians by the name of the Church understand a Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this is the proper and genuine signification of the word Church such as is known by every one and used in common discourse I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves The sequel will declare whether the scandal of dealing with that Article of the Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians do would not better agree with the Character of such as follow M. de Condom's Opinion than the Reformed Ministers This we shall presently be able to judge of and to that purpose four Questions must be examined The first is Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther Secondly Whether this be a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Thirdly Whether this Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether it be both considered in a different sense and different respects Fourthly To what Church the Promises of Jesus Christ do belong whether to that defined by M. de Condom or to that which we are about to define These four Questions will include not only all the plausible things M. de Condom hath said in this first part of his Discourse but likewise all the other sophistical Objections that are usually put to us upon this subject Quest 1. Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther In order to resolving the first Question you will please Sir to give me leave to explain briefly that Article of our Creed concerning the Catholick or Universal Church and how we understand it that so you may be able to judge whether M. de Condom had reason to accuse us of not taking it in its true sense And this I shall immediately enter upon We think then this being such a profession of Faith as ought to embrace its object entire and in the utmost extent and not in any one part only that by the Vniversal Church must be understood not barely the visible body or company of the Faithful at present upon Earth but that body or company of all the Faithful which have been are or at any time shall be from the beginning to the end of the World Thus the Universal Church is That which is already
about to make Converts they ought 〈…〉 pretence of saving them a little trouble to decline any instructiâ—â—◠〈◊〉 may be necessary for their satisfaction and being perswaded 〈…〉 Church of Rome's pretensions are just should not fear to have the Grounds of them examined but suppose they will be found strong and impregnable How comes it to pass then that M. de Condom was pleased to pass by so fundamental a Question And how could be satisfy himself with barely propounding his definition and saying only that This was what all Christians understand by the name of a Church However I shall be bold to say that this is neither all nor indeed the main part of what Christians do or ought to understand by it and that his definition is defective by at least one half to which therefore I shall oppose another which I assert to be what all Christians ought to understand by the name of Church viz. A Society of such persons as making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ do truly and effectually believe it and making profession to govern themselves by his word do really and effectually govern themselves by it Our business now is to know which of these two is a good and lawful definition whether that given us by M. de Condom in agreement with the Doctors of his Communion or this of mine in agreement with all Protestants That is to say we are concerned to know whether the nature and essence of the Church consist barely in externals and appearances or whether something of reality be not required whether Hypocrisy and superficial Cheats can make men true members of the Church or whether something of truth be not necessary also to know whether wicked men worldlings and reprobates provided they make an outward profession and can but dissemble handsomely are real members of Christ's mystical body or whether this priviledge do not belong to those that are truly the Faithful Here lies the pinch of the Question which in my opinion would have resolved it self had but M. de Condom propounded it fairly For methinks 't is very hard to acquiesce so far in his definition But not to insist on this first prejudice let us examine the matter throughly I. The Scripture represents the Church to us as the product and execution of God's eternal decree of Predestination or Election and besides it teaches us that God in electing and predestinating men does it not to a mere outward profession of Faith and Holiness but to an effectual Faith and true Holiness And consequently effectual Faith and Holiness are of the nature and essence of the Church and not an outward profession only The consequence is manifest For the best way to discover the nature and essence of any thing is to take it according to its own Author's first Idea and design supposing that he does not as we are all agreed God does not swerve at all from his design in the execution of it The Church then being God's own work the surest means to discern what that is will be to inform our selves of God's design if we can but find out that Now this we find in the Election Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ says St. Paul in the name of the whole Church who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world And a little after He gathers together in one all things in Christ both which are in heaven and which are in earth even in him In whom we have obtain'd an inheritance being predestinated according to the purpose of him c. To this relates that saying of Christ I pray not for the world but for them which thou hast given me for they are thine Where by opposing the world for which he does not pray to those whom his father had given him 't is plain he understands the Church and his meaning is that the Father hath given them to Jesus Christ because it was his by his purpose of Election This appears further from the words that immediately follow And all mine are thine and thine are mine for this mutual reciprocation of Good between his Father and Him if I may so term it is capable of no other sense but this in the sequel of his discourse My Church are thine Elect and thy Elect are my Church they who are mine as my people are thine as thy Elect my Communion and thy Election have the same measures the same extent and do both comprehend the same persons So that the Election is nothing else but God's design and project of the Church and the constituting of a Church is the putting that design of Election in Execution Blessed says David is the man whom thou chusest and causest to approach unto thee that he may dwell in thy courts These Courts are the Church of God and men enter into them only by vertue of God's Election God hath saved us says the Apostle and called us with an holy calling not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began We must therefore come to the knowledg of the Church by his Eternal purpose and to know that we must consult his Holy Word He hath chosen us says St. Paul that we should be holy and without blame before him in love Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself and that we should be to the praise of the glory of his grace He does not say a bare profession of Holiness but a real Holiness he does not say an appearance of adoption but a true adoption he does not say an external conversion but an internal That is such as may illustrate the glory of God God hath predestinated us to a true Faith and not an appearance of Faith to a sincere and substantial Regeneration not to a shadow or colour of it 'T is past a doubt then that a mere outward profession cannot give us a full definition of the Church but true Faith and Regeneration are necessary parts of the Idea we have of it II. The Scripture when speaking of the Church with reference to God gives it such appellations as can by no means be restrain'd to a more profession or allow us to think it can be composed of wicked persons It calls the Church Jerusalem which is above the Heavenly Jerusalem the City of the living God the Holy Hill of Sion the Israel of God A Holy Nation a peculiar people the inheritance of God the habitation of God through the spirit the house of God the temple of God His holy Priesthood His spiritual house His royal Priesthood His purchased possession the people of God Tell me now I pray if the energy of these expressions is not admirably answered by
shalt thou be established In the same sense Jeremiah speaks of it They shall teach no more every man his neighbour and every man his brother saying Know the Lord for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them for I will forgive their inquity and I will remember their sin no more Ezekiel says as much I will sprinkle clean water upon you and ye shall be clean I will give you a new heart and a new spirit will I put within you and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh And I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and ye shall keep my judgements In like manner Joel Then says he shall Jerusalem be holy and there shall no strangers pass through it any more Likewise Zechariah In that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts What can all these great and wonderful promises mean This Circumcision of Heart This way of Holiness where the unclean shall not pass over This keeping out of Lions and ravenous beasts This being taught of God This universal knowledg joyned with a pardon of sins This pouring out of the spirit which shall take away the hearts of stone and change them for hearts of flesh This Holiness of Jerusalem so as to suffer no stranger nor Canaanite in the midst of her I say What signifies all this if the form and essence of a Church consist in a bare profession and if this Communion can be composed of unjust as well as just of Bad as well as Good men V. St. Paul in his first Epistle to the Corinthians endeavours to make us apprehend the Church aright by resembling it to a man's body As the body says he is one and hath many members and all the members of that one body being many are one body so also is Christ For by one spirit are we all haptized into one body whether we be Jews or Gentiles whether we be bond or free and have all been made to drink into one spirit I need not here observe that by Christ he means the Mystical body of Christ That is his Church this is manifest of it self and he explains himself so afterwards You says he are the body of Christ and members in particular All we have to do is to enquire what he makes to be the principle and â—and of this unity here attributed to the Church and with respect to which he likens it to the body of a Man And this is easily understood for in his opinion it is the spirit and consequently not a bare profession But still it may be doubtful what Spirit this is Is it a spirit of direction only that attends upon the Clergy and prevents their giving erroneous determinations and publickly professing any such how wicked sover the persons exercising this Authority be By no means It is the spirit which the faithful receive and whereof Baptism is a sign For says the Apostle we are all haptized into one body whether we be Jews or Gentiles whether we be bond or free and have all been made to drink into one spirit Thus you see the band and principle of the Churches Unity The evident consequence whereof is that inward regeneration is essential to it and that as many as have not been washed by nor made to drink into this heavenly spirit cannot be parts of this body VI. But the Apostle carries on his Argument yet further for he takes notice that although God had put a difference between the members as there is likewise in those of the Church yet he had so qualified this difference That there should be says he no schism or division in the body but that the members should have the same care one of another so that whether one member suffers all the members suffer with it or one member be honoured all the members rejoyce with it From hence it is plain that according to St. Paul there is as real an agreement between the members of the body of the Church as there is between those of a humane body without any contrariety or discord and that this good correspondence is founded on that Unity which makes each part to have one and the same common interest Now what true agreement or common concern can there ever be between the members of Christ and members of the Devil Or in St. Paul's own phrase What fellowship between light and darkness What continual enmity on the contrary must there needs lurk under the Covert of such an untoward seeming Peace as a bare outward profession may make Every one aims at advancing his own Master's honour so that the sentiments designs and methods of the Servants must of necessity carry as great opposition as there is between the Masters they serve VII In his Epistle to the Galatians he gives us another description of the Church very like this As many says he as have been baptizeed into Christ have put on Christ There is neither Jew nor Greek there is neither bond nor free there is neither male nor female for ye are all one in Christ Jesus Thus far respects Communion with the same Christ which is the very thing that constitutes the Unity of the Church and is the essential form of it so that persons out of this Communion are not of the Church because they have no part in the Churches Unity If you would now Know what kind of Communion this is attend to what follows If ye be Christ's Ye are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise So that St. Paul does not treat of a Communnion consisting in a bare outward profession but such a one as makes men Mystical Children of Abraham and heirs of God VIII In his Epistle to the Romans he thought it not enough to say They that are in Christ Jesus walk not after the flesh but after the spirit which yet is intimation sufficient what nature that Communion is of that makes this Mystical Body of Christ the Church but he goes further and is express afterwards If any man have not the spirit of Christ he is none of his Words of such strength as will not allow us to acknowledg wicked men belong to the Church unless we should make a Church that is not Christ's If the Church formally and as such be Christ's this must be true of all that are of the Church and participate of that which constitutes it such Now according to M. de Condom's definition wicked men and reprobates may be of the Church therefore in his opinion they may be Christ's Notwithstanding St. Paul avers that they that are Christ's live not according to the flesh and that as many as have not Christ's spirit are none of his so that he is of a judgement different from M. de Condom's If an outward profession alone be the common
band and that which constitutes the Church we are driven to maintain one of these three things Either that such a profession does confer the spirit of Christ Or without Christ's spirit one may still be his Or that the things which make it to be a Church do not yet make it to be Christ's The first of these would be absurd For what more so than to assert ' That a bare profession of Christianity confers the Spirit of Christ At this rate every Hypocrite is a partaker of that Holy Spirit The second That one without Christ's Spirit may still be his directly contradicts Saint Paul's assertion which positively declares That he who hath not Christ's Spirit is not his And for the third That the things which make it to be a Church do not yet make it to be Christ's it may be M. de Condom may not like this himself I for my part look upon it as a very strange position For can one say that what precisely constitutes the Church does not make it Christ's This is as much as to say that the Church is not his Body nor his Spouse nor his well-beloved nor any of all those things the Scripture calls it In a word 't is to say that it is not considered in this quality any part of his concern If M. de Condom frame to himself such a Church as this let him at least give us leave to enquire why he does afterwards appropriate the promises to it For what right can the Church have to these if as such it be not Christ's nor hath Communion with him These two Propositions are evidently destructive of one another If the Church as such be not Christ's it has no share in his promises if it hath then it is his as a Church Let him chuse which he please if the first our Controversie is at an end for to what purpose should we disspute of a Church which he says is Jesus Christ's and yet is not his nor hath any title to the promises If the second let him not talk any more of a Church considered as such being constituted by a bare outward profession For this not conferring Christ's Spirit cannot make the Church his or if it can St. Paul does not say true when he tells us expresly That if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his IX The sundry passages of Scripture concerning Hypocrites who cloak themselves with such an outward profession abundantly prove them not to be of Christ's Church He that saith he is in the light and hateth his brother is in darkness And a little after In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the Devil whosover doth not righteousness is not God neither he that loveth not his brother Again afterwards He that loveth not knoweth not God for God is love St. Jude speaking of these Hypocrites calls them Spots in our feasts of charity clouds without water trees without fruit twice dead plucked up by the Roots Jesus Christ himself says In the last day he will profess unto them he never knew them What colour then have we for making such members of the Church which is Christ's Body But that place of St. John removes all the difficulty They went out from us but they were of us for if they had been of us they would no doubt have continued with us but that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us What a plain difference is here made between being among us and being of us being among us is proper for Hypocrites that are mixed with the Faithful and joyn in the same profession Being with us is sincerely and truly to be of the Church for which something more than an outward profession is requisite X. We read in Scripture of a twofold Call one by the meer Preaching of the Word commonly termed an outward Call the other by the Preaching of the Word and the Holy Spirit both stiled an inward Call Of the first our Saviour speaks when he says Many are called but few chosen Of the second St. Paul Whom he did predestinate them he also cased and whom he called them he also justified Now the Church whose very name implies a Call must needs have been the effect of one of these two just mentioned But if defined by a bare profession it cannot refer to one or other of these nor can it answer the design of either It does not fulfil the end of the first for the Preaching of the Gospel does not call men to a meer Profession of believing Jesus Christ's Doctrine A Hypocrite is so far from complying with this Call that he rejects and mocks at it It does not refer to the second Call because the Spirit which calls with the Word is a Spirit of Regeneration and not bare profession What Call shall we refer it to then I know not any third the Scripture mentions not any and the nature of the thing will not admit of any We can consider God in such a case but according to two different capacities either as a Law-giver commanding exhorting promising and threating or as an absolute disposer of Events and so bringing to pass in us the thing he commands us But whether commanding us or whether working in to he never stops at a bare profession he goes on to the truth of Holiness and Faith his Word enjoyns it his Spirit produces it So that whether soever of these two Calls you suppose the Church to obey it must either proceed to a true Conversion or be no Church for the proper and natural signification of the word is a Called Society but no one ever called it to an outward profession and no more XI I suppose it is a maxim among all Christians That Jesus Christ hath no more Churches than one and that this on Earth together with that in Heaven make but that one thus much we learn from the Trent-Catcchisin it self A sure method then of discovering the true nature and essence of the Church upon Earth would be to search into that in Heaven for it is plain were these of different natures they would be no longer one but two Churches of a several species Thus much I think must be granted and so likewise must the Conclusion I deduce from it viz. That either the nature of the Church Triumphant must exist in a bare profession or that of the Church Militant cannot If the Churches Unity here below be a Unity of Profession an external Unity only and the internal one be but accidental then the Unity of the Church above must be External too and no more and that Internal one resulting from the agreement of hearts and wills no more essential to it than to this below Otherwise as was said before they must be two different Churches Let them be so kind then to clear this Point Whether we must believe that a true Piety true Regeneration and true Holiness are
not really esseential parts of the Church in Heaven for to this hour I never heard any such thing maintained XII Those who desire to be informed what the Church and its Unity is need only consider what Jesus Christ says in that admirable Prayer related by St. John Neither pray I for these alone his Apostles but for them also which shall believe on me through their word That they may be one as thou Father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us The Glory which thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one even as we are one The Churches Unity is formed after the pattern of that between the Father and the Son This is a kind of resemblance a draught of that which hath some of the strokes though not all the liveliness and perfection It is therefore a Real Internal Unity a Unity not of outward Profession only but in some sort of nature and essence a Unity of Regeneration a Unity of the same Faith and the same Righteousness and to restrain this to a meer External Union such as is common to both good and bad men would not only weaken but utterly evacuate the force of Jesus Christ's expression XIII To all that hath been now alledged might be added almost innumerable passages of the Primitive Fathers who whenever they spoke of the Church in its true and genuine sense did always deliver themselves as we do I will here instance in some of them S. Cypr. in his 55 Ep. hath this passage Lord says St. Peter to whom shall we go thou hast the words of eternal life and we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ the Son of the living God Shewing hereby that such as depart from Christ perish through their own default but the Church which believes in him and constantly perseveres in the Truths she hath received does never depart from him and such as continue in the House of God are his Church Such as want the substance and solidity of good corn and are scattered abroad with the breath of the Enemy like chaff with the wind are not of Gods planting With relation to whom it is that St. John in his Epistle says They went out from us but they were not of us for if they had been of us they would no doubt have continued with us In another place having said before that the water mixt with their winc in the Eucharist represented the people as the wine did the Blood of Christ he adds When therefore the water is mixed with the wine in the Chalice the people are united to Jesus Christ and the company of believers joined to him on whom they believe Now this water and wine are so mixt in the Cup that they cannot be parted any more Whence it follows that nothing can separate between Christ and his Church that is the persons that are in the Church constantly and closely adhering to what they have believed nor break off the inviolable love they bear to one another So that wicked men and Hypocrites are not of the Body of the Church seeing an outward profession is not sufficient to make men such St. Jerom says the very same thing The Church of Christ is a glorious Church having neither spot nor wrinkle nor any such thing He therefore that is a sinner and stained with any pollution cannot be said to be of Christ's Church nor in subjection to Christ It may happen indeed that as the Church which had heretofare its spots and wrinkles was after restored to youth and purity so a sinner may come to the Physician for those that be well need not a Physician but those that be sick and so having his maladies healed be made a member of the Church which is Christs Body St. Ambrose explaining those words of the 36 th Psalm Let not the hand of the ungodly cast me down says As the Saints are members of Jesus Christ so wicked men are members of the Devil Let not the hand of the ungodly remove me that is Let not the actions of Sinners tempt me to depart from the way of righteousness for we are apt to slip when we see the prosperity of Sinners and so the hand of Sinners does in some sort shake and loosen us from the root of vertue If wicked men are members of the Devil there little probability that hypocrisie should be able to make them members of Jesus Christ But of all the Fathers there is not any that treats of this Subject with such exactness and perspicuity as St. Austin does a Man might compile a whole Volume of what he hath written about it This Father explaining that of St. Jehn They went out from us but they were not of us They went out from us says he we lament the loss But hear the comfort they were not of us All Hereticks and Schismaticks go out from us That is depart from the Church but were they truly any of outs they would not have departed They were not therefore out members even before they went out and if so then there are many within who tho they have not yet gone out are Antichrists May we dare to essert this Yes why not Let every man consult his own Conscience to know if he be not Anticrist The meaning of Anticrist is contrary to Christ Whence it is clear that none but Antichrists can go out for such as are not contrary to Christ will by no means do so for they continue in the body and are reckoned among the members of Christ The Members are never contrary to one another The intire composition of a body consuis in having all its members and you know what the Apostle says upon this matual agreement of the Members If one member suffer all the members suffer with it and if one be honoured all shall rejoyce with it Now if all the Members suffer in the grief of one and rejoyce at the honour done to one there is nothing that savours of Antichrist in this mutual agreement Those that are within are the body of our Lord Jesus Christ For this body is still in a state of healing and will never enjoy perfect health and sandness till the resurrection of the dead These Antichrists are in the body of Christ like ill humours the voiding of which eases the body Thus when the wicked go out the Church finds refreshment and when the body throws them out she says these noxious humours are gone out of me but they were no part of me that is they were not cut away from my flesh or substance but opprest my stomach while they lay there They are gone from us then but be not troubled at it they were not ours But how do you prove this St. John says If they had been of us they would have continued with us So that you see many people receive the Sacraments with us which yet are not any part of us
They have Baptism administred to them they receive that benediction which the saithful are sensible they receive truly and effectually the Eucharist and whatever is in the Sacraments They communicate of the same Altar with us and yet are no parts of us Templation discovers them to be none When that arises they are carried away as with a strong wind because they are not the true solid Corn. Nothing can be more express Evil men tho within the pale of the Church That is making an outward profession yet are not of his Body nor ought to be reckoned among his Members These are distempered humours within the Body but not at all of the substance of the Body such as do but annoy the Body and must be evacuated in order to give its relief So that St. Augustine's sense of the Church was That it consisted only of Righteous persons and true Believers and that inward vertues were essential to it and ought to make a part of its definition Observe again what he delivers in his Treatise of Baptism against the Donatists Whether evil men be seemingly within the Church or evidently out of it still that which is flesh is flesh Whether the barren Chaff continue in the floor or be scattered by the blast of temptation it is still but Chaff Carnal and obdurate persons tho they mix with the Saints in the same Assemblies are still separated from the Unity of that Church which is without spot or wrinkle Yet must we not despair of any either such as being within the pale passes for Friends or such as being without betrays a more manifest contraricty to us And lower in the same Treatise Baptism it self cannot be corrupted tho administred to corrupt persons any more than the church which is incorruptible chast and innocent To which Covetous persons Robbers and Usurers do not belong such as Cyprian in many of his Epistles says are not only without but even within the pale Presently after Such as live contrary to Christ that is in the breach of his Commandments tho they seem to be in the Church are not really so We must not imagine they belong to that Church which Jesus Christ cleanses by the washing of water and the word to make of it a glorious Church without spot or wrinkle And if they be not of that Church whose members they are not then neither are they of that concerning which it is said My dove is but one the only one of her mother For this is she that is without spot or wrinkle and let them shew us how these are members of this Dove who have renounced the World in words only and not in works And a little after that I would ask with respect to every man's present condition whether such men are now to be reckoned for members of that Church which is the Dove the Spouse without spot or wrinkle as Cyprian describes in his Epistle Men that kept not to the way of the Lord nor the Heavenly receptes given for their Salvation that did not perform the Will of God but wholly addicted themselves to worldly gain proud envious contentious persons that neglected Hoonesty and Faith renounced the World in words only not in deeds every one studying his own pleasure and the dissatisfaction of all others If this Dove refuse to own such for her Members if God shall one day say to such wretches that continue in their perverse courses I know you not depart from me ye workers of iniquity tho they seem never so much to be in the Church they are not in truth of the Church but act in direct contrariety to her And in another place of the same Treatise Such as oppose brotherly love whether they are plainly without or whether seemingly within are divided from that invisible Assembly which Charity knits together Therefore St. John says They went out from us but they were not of us for if they had been of us they would no doubt have continued with us He does not say they alienated themselves by going out but that they were aliens and that this was the reason why they went out Thus far this Father does not dissemble his opinion He will by no means own any but the Saints to be Members of the Church he totally excludes wicked men and hypocrites he uses no such nice distinctions between dead and living members as our modern Controvertists do in the contrary he explains what he said That wicked men were in the Church by saying that they seem to be in it but they only seem to be so for in very deed they are more foreigners and such as the Church does not acknowledg for hers In the fifth Book of the same Treatise he says The Church is described in the Book of Canticles as Christ's Garden inclosed his Sister his Spouse his sealed Fountain his Well of living waters his Orchard of Pomegranates This I dare understand of none but the Saints and Righteous persons not of the Covetous the Defrauders the Extortioners the Usurers the Drunkards and the Envious which have indeed the same common Baptism with the just but not the same Charity Let them tell me how the men that have renounced the world in words only and not in deeds got in to this inclosed Garden this sealed Fountain For if these men are really in it if these are the Spouse of Christ how can that Spouse be without blemish or without spot How can she be the beautiful Dove when stained with such a parcel of Members as these Are not these the Thorns in the midst of which she as the Lilies according to that expression in the Canticles In what respect then she is a Lilly in the same is she an inclosed Garden a sealed Fountain That is with regard to those just men who are Jews inwardly by the Circumcision of the heart For the King's daughter is all glorious within and among these are the set number of Saints predestinated before the foundation of the World But for that multitude of Thorns whether their separation be undiscerned or whether it be open they are added over and above as the Scripture says they are multiplied above measure This number therefore of the just called according to the Election of God these of whom it is said The Lord knoweth them that be his They are his inclosed Garden his sealed Fountain his Well of Living Waters This Holy Doctor thought it not enough to allow wicked men and hypocrites no place in his notion of the Church and to make it up of just men only but he does besides shew wherein the very essential form that Unity which constitutes a Church does consist to wit not in any thing external but in the internal graces In the Circumcision of the heart and the Glory within He goes farther still and makes the Church to consist of the predestinated only The number says he of God's Elect are his inclosed Garden and sealed
the Church consisting of true Believers only I reconcile these two by inferring That the Church of true Believers only is a Church made visible by the Exercise of the Ministry M. de Condom tells me St. Paul speaks of a Church visible by the use of the Ministry when he says Christ loved it and cleansed it with the washing of water by the word St. Augustin tells me The Church of true Believers only is spoken of in this passage I can reconcile these two no other way than by concluding that then the Church of true Believers only is a Church visible by the use of the Ministry M. de Condom teaches me that in this passage Thou art Peter and upon this rock will I build my Church Jesus Christ denotes a Church visible by the Exercise of an External Ministry St. Augustin instructs me that it denotes the Church of true Believers How shall these two be made agree but by concluding that the Church of true Believers then is a visible Church exercising an external Ministry If you still desire an Argument of more strongth remember that the visibility attributed to the Church in Scripture cannot possibly be any other than that we assign it For as on the one hand we are taught there that the true Church consists of true Believers only so do we learn there also that true Believers are mixt with wicked men and hypocrites It is there we find the similitudes of Chaff amongst the good Corn of bad Fishes jumbled together with the good of Tares sown among the good Wheat Now whatever we deliver concerning the Churches visibility and invisibility is grounded entirely upon these two principles The second difficulty that may be siarted is whether the visibility we assign to the Church be sufficient to maintain Christian Fellowship to comfort the Faithful and bring them to Salvation I answer that this would not be sufficient indeed to establiâ—h the Church of Romes pretensions such as absolute authority over mens Consciences Infallibility of Councils a blind obedience to their Determinations and this very insufficiency as to that shews us the injustice of such pretensions But I say that in its kind this visibility is sufficient either for the maintenance of external Communion or for the joy and consolation of the Faithful and the bringing them to Salvation In order to that we need only know ourselves to be in Communion with the truly Faithful For tho we know that there is a mixture of ill men among these yet shall we still continue in the external Communion with them out of respect to God's Elect We shall still bear the disorders and offences given by others patiently we shall still receive the same Sacraments and partake of other fruits of the Ministry with comfort as knowing that the efficacy of these acts does not depend upon the wicked but are blessings that belong to the righteous And our not being able to make certain and personal distinctions of men will add to our caution that we suffer not our selves to be surprised into any superstitions and errors that would insinuate themselves under the plausible title of the Church And thus the visibility we allow the Church is abundantly sufficient It might further be demanded whether it can so happen that the Church may at any time lose the visibility of its Assemblies and so become in this respect perfectly invisible I answer that although we acknowledg Almighty God can whenever he pleases utterly disperse the persons of the Faithful and still keep them in this wretched condition by the methods of his own Providence yet we do not think this ever did so happen The Christian Church hath lain under great persecutions but tho they were never so great she hath constantly had some where or other some Assemblies and some exercise of the Ministry publick or private and however her Martyrs and Confessors have all along made her visible so that she cannot be said absolutely ever to have disappeared quite from the sight of men Yet we must own that in this respect there have been several degrees of her visibility that is the Church hath been more or less visible as her Assemblies have been held and her Ministry exercised with more or less freedom We must own too that not any particular Church upon Earth can promise it self a perpetual visibility no nor so much as a perpetual subsistence God removes his Candlestick from the midst of a people at his pleasure and he does it then when he hath no more Elect to call there There have been many instances of this in the World particularly in the Churches of Africa once so beautiful and flourishing but these are only the puttings out of some particular light and do not at all prejudice either the subsistence or visibility of the Christian Church in general The last difficulty to be urged is whether the Church can at any time lose the visibility of its Characters I mean that visibility whereby without descending to personal distinctions we are enabled to conclude that there are true Believers in this mixed Society so far as that we can not judge whether such be there or no I answer It not only may but often hath happened that the Characters by which we should in this respect come to know the true Church have been so mightily obscured that a man could not without much trouble and difficulty affirm that In this particular body it was that God nourished and sustained his true Believers and we shall find hereafter that M. de Condom himself owns enough to establish the truth of this assertion But still tho this be uncontestable as proved to be plain matter of fact we do notwithstanding acknowledg that the Church did never absolutely and entirely lose their visibility in this respect because as was said in answer to the Prejudices we do not think that ever so total an Eclipse happen'd that it could not in some measure be said This is the Society wherein God preserves some true Believers And here I cannot but complain of what M. de Condom does afterwards in his Discourse accuse us of saying that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be They are constrained says he to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon Earth And in another place This is the Church which your Ministers know not They teach you that this visible and exteriour Church may cease to be upon Earth But this is urging his charge against us too far So far are we from believing the visible Church ceases to be that we do not so much as say it ever absolutely ceases to be visible And yet there would be a mighty difference between saying she ceases to be visible and that she ceases to be at all The Sun the most visible thing in the World is often not visible to our eyes but yet he ceases not to be In the point of Real presence M. de Condom will own that the Body
purify her that she may be a peculiar people zealous of good works He will build her upon himself to be an holy Temple an habitation of God through the spirit He will wrde his laws in their hearts and engrave them in their minds He will take away the heart of stone and give them an heart of flesh a new heart and a new spirit How is it possible that nothing of all this should surprise the Doctors of the Romish Communion nor stagger their confidence of finding these Promises fulfilled as well in the bad as the good the just as well as unjust For in short if wicked men who have no more than external profession become by virtue of that profession really and truly Members of the Church the Promises concern them and they have a right to them in common with others for certainly they concern as many as make up the Body of Christ Now shall we say that notwithstanding these are drowned in vice Yet the Gates of Hell shall never prevail against them provided they can but counterfeit dexterously Shall we say that tho gangrened and putrified from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot it matters not They shall be without spot or wrinkle holy and without blemish so they do but continue in an external profession Shall we say that tho they have no Faith no Justice no Piety they need not trouble themselves Jesus Christ will be with them alway by the presence of his Holy Spirit provided they can but maintain a fair outside Shall we say that although they prostitute themselves to all wickedness and villany they need not be so much concerned Jesus Christ will not fail to redeem them from all iniquity and to make of them a peculiar people zealous of good works provided they be not wanting in dissimulation Here is no invidious aggravation in all this The Promises of Christ are plain matters of fact delivered expresly in Scripture in favour of the Church The defining of the Church by a bare external profession is another plain matter of fact to be seen through all the Writers of that Communion and particularly this discourse of M. de Condom The applying these Promises to the Church thus defined is what M. de Condom stitly contends for and makes it an inducement to peoples conversion So that I do not in the least exaggerate nor do I see what reply they can make To talk of two true Churches even in Christ's sight one to which the Promises belong as such viz. That of True Believers and another to which they do not belong as such viz. That whose essence consists in the external profession besides that it would be advancing a notion contrary to Scripture and Reason which inform us but of one true Church would be to argue to no purpose for wherefore should we argue about a Church to which the Promises of Jesus Christ have no relation Why should we invest with such glorious and divine priviledges a Church to which Christ hath promised nothing at all Or what reason have we with a blind obedience to submit to a Church where it may happen that wicked men and Enemies of God may get the upper hand and the Spirit of Christ bear no Rule in it To say we ought to distinguish between two kinds of Promises one such as respect inward Sanctification and Salvation the other respecting the perpetual Visibility of the Ministry and its Infallibility in the external profession of the Truth and that the first sort are peculiar to the Elect and true Believers in the Church but the other belong to the whole Body of that Society making Profession besides that this would be to start a Division of the Promises which the Scripture divided not for all made there are made to one and the same Body to one and the same Church without distinction besides that this would be to frame Promises that never were given such as a perpetual Infallibility of the Ministry in the external Profession of the Truth as we lately saw Besides this I say it is plainly to suppose that the Church as a Church hath no promises made her of Sanctification and Salvation and so consequently 't is to oppose Scripture which makes them to her formally under the name and title of a Church The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against my Church says Christ Christ loved the Church says St. Paul and gave himself for it that he might sanctifie it and present it to himself a glorious Church having neither spot nor wrinkle nor any such thing but that it should be holy and without blemish The Lord says the Apostle nourishes and cherishes the Church all these Promises imply Sanctification and Salvation What can we then with reason say to this matter except what was said upon the foregoing Question to wit That we sometimes form an Idea of the Church by a Judgment of Charity so looking upon all external Professors in general to be true Believers and by this Judgment we include in our Notion abundance of People who really and indeed are not of the Church and consequently have no title to the Promises of Jesus Christ But this Notion is rectified by a Judgment of Reflection Exactness and Truths formed from the Idea's which Scripture and right Reason give us of the true Church restraining it to true Believers only and that the Promises of Scripture must be applyed to it in this last true exact Notion only Add to this that this true Church being intermixt with the counterfeit is not indeed so distinctly visible that we can say with certainly this or that particular man is a true Believer for this is proper to God alone but that it is however visible in a sure though indistinct manner which will go so far as to affirm That there are true Pelievers in such an external Profession Add further that this Church thus visible becomes more or less so according as Corruptions and Disorders are more or less predominant in their exteriour Society and that sometimes it is mightily celipsed partly through the prevalence of worldly superstitious and such like Persons partly through the infirmities of most true Believers but still that it never was absolutely invisible Add once more that this Church now upon Earth together with that in Heaven and that which shall spring up in succeeding Ages are all three that Vniversal Church we profess to believe in our Creed Add I say these three last Propositions to the two foregoing and so you will comprise all I have advanced hitherto you will be furnished with certain uncontestable Principles grounded upon Scripture upon Reason upon the Fathers and upon experience by the help of which you will be able with great ease to throw off all those difficulties usually started by the Romanists upon this Subject This will be further evidenced by what I am in the next place about to say Natural and necessary Consequences of the
to receive implicitely whatever is delivered to them by their Ministry But reject this principle and there is no reason why the Faithful may not separate the good from the bad and why they may not subsist under such a Ministry by the help of that distinction which the Grace of God enables them to make And here Sir allow me to wonder a little at the pleasant double which the Doctors of the Romish Communion make when they dispute Our first and main question is whether we ought to acquiesce in the Council of Trent's Determinations Yes say they you must yield an implicit obedience to the Decrees of the Prelates assembled in a Body But why an Implicit Obedience Because say they the Church cannot subsist without it But why cannot it subsist without it Cannot it subsist by resuming the Ministry out of such hands and putting it into better Cannot it without going so far subsist by separating between good and bad food No they tell you it cannot because it is obliged to receive implicitely whatever the Prelates in a Body shall deliver What way of disputing call you this if it be not quite to swerve from good sense and reason and to be lost in an impertinent maze For is not this a perfect round first to prove an Implicite Obedience because the Church cannot otherwise subsist and then to prove the Church cannot otherwise subsist without this Obedience because men ought to obey implicitely VI. But let us proceed in drawing our Consequences And being we hit upon the point of the Implicit Obedience they exact to the decisions of Bishops and that Sovereign and Absolute Authority wherewith they would invest them let us try if this can agree with the Principles we have establish'd I meddle not now with those other reasons that might be made use of you will find them in part in the Book I quoted just now All I shall say is that since no man can have a distinct knowledg of the True Believers and that the True Church consists of such alone no man consequently can be secure that this Body of Prelates whether considered single or whether as convened in a Council are the true Church Yes but says one they represent the true Church I agree with you so far as the True Believers are still under their Ministry But representing the True Church does not presently endue them with its Opinions and Affections The true Church in conferring her Ministry upon men does not confer upon them withal either true Faith or true Regeneration much less perfect Infallibility Hence whatever determinations they give are still subject to an examination If these prove confermable to God's Word it is our duty not only to embrace them but further to respect â—he Body of Ministers as the true Church Representative because they have exprest her sense and Charity will carry us still further and incline us to esteem them true Believers because they have acted as such But when their divisions are found to disagree with God's Word we are to look upon them as men that have abused their ministry If this happen in things not plainly interesting the Conscience their ministry must be born with and the liberty of separating the clean from the unclean natural to every Believer made use of If they do interest the Conscience we groan under their ministry we pray to God we implore succors from above still using the Liberty of Conscience to refuse the Evil and retain the Good But if this Body of Prelates-proceed to violent taking away this necessary and indispensable Liberty of Conscience and reduce the faithful to this hard streight either to be damned for false Doctrine in slavishly following their Ministers errors or damn'd for dissimulation in pretending to follow them Then the true Believers ought to look upon them as men that have stript themselves of the right of the Ministry to oppose them to take it from them and repose the trust in other hands It is evident then the supreme Authority we contend about cannot take place because it is continually in danger of being invested in worldly men to whom it cannot in any case belong And so we should be continually in danger of mistaking That for the Church Representative which neither is really nor can possibly be so VII The seventh Use to be made of what we have advanced is the right apprehending of some expressions used by us viz. That the Church is corrupted that the state of the Church hath been interrupted and the like so as to reconcile these with Jesus Christ's Promises which import not only the perpetual existence but also the perpetual holiness and incorruption of the Church Now for that corruption attributed by us to the Church I say that whereas the Promises of Christ concern the true Church that is True Believers only our expression on the contrary respects the Church according to that Idea of Charity we form of it including all external Professors which are ordinarily call'd the Visible Church 'T is of the Church taken in this last notion that we say she is corrupted for the whole Body being made up as we have seen of good and bad man it hath come to pass that the wicked are mightily increased and the spirit of the World which is a spirit of error and superstition shewed it self in an eminent manner But we do not understand true Believers to be corrupted only so far forth as they may possibly have contracted some tincture of infirmity by conversing with the others And for that interruption of the state of the Church mentioned in our Confession of Faith where we say That the state of the Church being interrupted it was necessary it should be raised up again out of its ruines and desolation The meaning of those expressions is not what M. de Condom pretends that the true Church ceases to exist or that its Ministry was quite extinct in those times which we call times of desolation and ruine for we make a distinction between the Church and the state of the Church The Church is the true Believers making profession of Truth and Christian Piety and a real Holiness under a Ministry which dispenses all nourishment necessary for spiritual life without keeping back any It s natural and proper state is to be freed as much as its militant condition can admit from the impure mixture of prophane worldly men not to be covered over and as it were swallowed up with this Chaff and Tares to have a pure Ministry not incumbred with errors with false worship superstitious customs a Ministry in the hands of good men who are in possession of it by honest methods and set a good example to others This State is what we think hath been interrupted having seen strange opinions brought into Religion Superstitious propagated the Ministry invaded by men neither deserving nor capable of it and that were advanced by scandalous and unlawful methods having seen vices openly predominant among
Churchmen the Pulpits more zealous for Tales and Legends than the Word of God The Schools busying themselves with ridiculous Questions and Curiosities the Sacraments burdened with strange Ceremonies the instruction and edification of mens Souls wretchedly neglected and in a word the Gospel liberty changed into a temporal slavery This is what we mean by the state of the Church being interrupted this the ruine and desolation we bewail The Church hath not ceased to exist nor did she perfectly lose her visibility or her Ministry God forbid But both she and her Ministry have seen the natural state they ought to continue in changed and interrupted VIII Apply these principles now to our Reformation and then Sir you will discern that granting this supposition to be true that the Body of the Prelates invested in the ministry of the Church in our Fathers days and assembled in the Trent Council supposing I say that they delivered such determinations in points of Faith as are incompatible with Salvation Granting it to be true that they took away Christian Liberty by Anathematizing all who should refuse to believe and submit to those determinations as they did and by adding to all this violence and compulsion our Fathers had reason to look upon them as Ministers that had justly deprived themselves of all right to exercise their Ministry over them by such ill conduct and to give that power of the Ministry to others They had reason to look upon the party that adhered to these Prelates with such obstinate stiffness as a Body or Society of which a man could not positively say That is the particular Body wherein God nourishes and cherishes his Faithful and Elect. IX Hence likewise it follows that our Fathers are wrongfully charged with making a Schism and separating from the Church For it being sure that the Church consists of the Faithful only and besides that we are of opinion the Trent Bishops themselves broke the band of external Communion with sound Believers and brought things to such a pass that our Ancestors could not possibly joyn with them in the same Assemblies it is evident They were the Beginners of the Schism the Authors and makers of this lamentable division X. It signifies nothing to alledg that they were possest of the Ministry by an exterior and ordinary succession for the Ministry is not such a thing as men when once possest of can never forfeit their right to tho they abuse it never so much They enjoyed it by an external succession 't is confest but this succession with respect to mens persons continues no longer than we can say The faithful are under their Ministry When we cannot be sure of that any more from thenceforth the Prelates have lost their right and such a succession afterwards would be but as the succession of death to a disease or of night to twilight I do not say the Ministry it self is extinct God forbid but I say in such a case it devolves of right to that other part of the Society where the Faithful are The reason of which Truth is this That the Ministers are naturally the Church Representative And all their Authority is derived from the Body of the Faithful When therefore it happens that they break the band of external communion which joyns them to those Faithful it is plain they represent them no longer and the holding their Authority over them afterwards is a force and usurpation XI Lastly From the Principles we have established it appears how vain and ungrounded a scandal it is which the Controvertists of the Romish Communion are continually upbraiding us with of setting up a new Church For being the Church according to Scripture sound sense and the opinions of the Fathers is nothing else but the Society of true Believers To have set up a new Church we must have brought in a new Faith different from what Jesus Christ delivered to the World If they can convict us of being guilty in this point we are heartily content they should not only say we have formed a new Church but that we have formed a false perverse naughty Society and draw all the consequences against us that can be naturally drawn from that Concession But if we on the contrary have only rejected new Doctrines a worship that Christian Religion never was acquainted with and Errors brought into the Church since it was first established if we have only refined the Ministry and restored the Gospel to its natural lustre they ought to be just in acknowledgment that God hath made use of us for the preservation of his true Ancient Primitive Church and the rescuing it from oppression If it be true that the Trent Council have made Articles of Faith of such Doctrines and Practices as were never revealed to us by Christ may we not say that That hath set up a new Religion and consequently a new Church Let us judge of one another by this Rule of right reason and conscientiously examine the truth of what hath been done on both sides for upon such an examination the justice or injustice of taxing us with Novelty will depend THE SECOND PART OF Monsieur de CONDOM's Discourse EXAMINED THUS much I thought fit to say in Answer to the First part of M. de Condom's Discourse The Second will not detain us very long They made me says he some Objections concerning the frequent revolts of the people of Israel who had so often forsaken God the Kings and all the people as the Holy Scripture speaks during which the publick worship was so extinct that Elijah thought himself the only servant of God till he learnt from God himself that he had reserved to himself seven thousand men which had not bowed the knee unto Baal To this I answer'd proceeds he that for what regarded Elijah there was no difficulty since 't was apparent from the very words that it concern'd only Israel where Elijah prophesied and that the Divine Worship was so far from being at that time extinct in Judah that 't was there under the reign of Josaphat in the greatest lustre it had been since Solomon's time I shall not say here that the Divine Worship under the reign of Josaphat was not in such great lustre neither but that the Scripture informs us The high places were not taken away for the people offered still and burnt incense in the high places which was a worship forbidden by God But not to insist upon this I say in the first place This instance is a very good proof that the greatest part of this exteriour Society professing themselves to be the people of God that is ten tribes out of twelve were corrupted to that degree that Elijah complain'd he only was left Which shews that we must not always conclude Truth and Purity to be of that side where the number is most nor suppose it impossible for what we call the Visible Church to be corrupted at least as to the greatest part of Professors Secondly I
the wise and prudent and hast revealed them unto babes That the whole Jewish Church had in their Assemblies declared Jesus Christ a Deceiver That nevertheless this was not only a Church but the one sole Church in the World at that time invested with the Authority of God who had founded nourisht and brought it up till that time That God had taught it by his Prophets and depesited his Holy Oracles there That this Church laid a just claim to a succession of Two thousand years continuance and valued her self upon it That she held formal solemn Assemblies and such as Jesus Christ himself acknowledged They sit says he in Meses seat All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do And yet this very Church determin'd the greatest and most heinous Error that ever could be in the World even that Jesus Christ was to be rejected as a wicked man and a Deceiver That we cannot avoid affirming that at that time siâ—gle and private persons might understand the Scripture better than the whole Body of the Church met together and that in allowing M. de Condom's Principle to be true viz. That men ought to yield an absolute obedience to the decisions of Ecclesiastical Assemblies without taking upon them a right to examine what is so decided we do condemn Jesus Christ and as many as then believed in him For according to this principle Jesus Christ ought not any more to have taught the people publickly after the Church had past such decisions against him nor ought the people to have given him their attention any more because they were not suffered to examine those decisions And yet proceeded he Jesus Christ did not forbear Preaching to the people and converting many of them nor did they withdraw their attention not withstanding all the decisions given against him This principle then of a blind and implicit obedience is consequently false and contrary to the conduct of Jesus Christ and his Disciples To preclude this Argument by urging that Jesus Christ wrought such miracles as did evidence his Authority to be Divine is here of no significancy at all For there are two sorts of Miracles the one true the other false the one that men may believe a lye the other to convince them of the truth This distinction was made by God himself in the 13th Chapter of Deuteronomy where he tells the Israelites That if a Prophet give them a sign or a wonder and would perswade them to go after other Gods They must not hearken unto him for the Lord their God proveth them Jesus Christ also hath himself owned the truth of this distinction Now said he if M. de Condom's principle had taken place the people had nothing to do to make this distinction after once the Church had determined that Jesus Christ wrought his Miracles by the help of Beelzebub and not by the Power of God They must not any more according to M. de Condom so much as open their eyes to see these Miracles or suffer the least impression to be made upon themselves by them And by consequence this principle is false and destructive of the Christian Religion Hereupon M. de Condom interrupted Mr. Claude telling him that this Instance of the Jewish Church ought not to have been produced in the present case For said he the Synagogue was to fall thus the Prophets had foretold and therefore the people ought not then to pay such an obedience to their Guides as is now owing to the Church of Christ which must never fail To which Mr. Claude return'd That seeing the Synagogue was to fall it might consequently so fall out that single and private persons should understand the meaning of Scripture better than the whole body of a Church met together in its solemn Assemblies which was the very point in debate and from hence it follows clearly that it was neither pride nor presumption for private people either to believe it possible for them at some time to understand Scripture better than the whole Body of an Assembly nor upon this principle to take their decisions into examination And that this was all he desired Besides said he This Reason could have no manner of influence upon the Jews because the Synagogue were not only not agreed upon it but quite contrary asserting that it should never fail they produced in their own behalf several promises which at first blush seemed to have a great deal of strength 'T is but lost labour to urge in defence of this the Prophets who foretold its fall for the meaning of those Prophesies was the thing then in question and the Synagogue having explained these in a sense that made for them according to M. de Condom's principle it was the people's duty to stick close to that explanation without examining it at all In a word said he this fall of the Synagogue does not make their Assemblies differ at all from those of the Christian Church with relation to the matter now in dispute between us For what Promises soever the Church of Jesus Christ may have that she shall subsist for ever there is not any thing in Scripture gives us assurance that the Assemblies of Councils shall never fail Here M. de Condom took up the Discourse and said That Mr. Claude's Argument concerning the time of the Synagogues fall was the most impertinent thing in the World For at that time it could not be said that there was any visible Authority upon Earth to which men were necessarily obliged to submit because Jesus Christ himself was there that is the very Truth appearing visibly among men to whom God had given testimony from Heaven and who wrought Miracles Do but you proceeded he bring again Jesus Christ Teaching Preaching doing Miracles among us and we shall have no further occasion for the Churches Authority My Argument said Mr. Claude was not only the most pertinent to our present purpose but the clearest and most concluding Argument in the World and I hope you your self will grant it to be so after I have entreated you to consider that the visible Authority of the Son of God was the very point in dispute between the Synagogue and Jesus Christ and that this very point the Synagogue had determined in the negative That the main business was to know whether Jesus Christ were a Deceiver or not whether his Miracles proceeded from God or Beelzebub That Jesus Christ's visible Authority could not decide that question in the peoples minds for no Authority can decide a doubt till it be first received and Jesus Christ's Authority was not as yet received for the main controversy then depending was whether it should be received or rejected So that there remained only the Authority of the Church and this had determined against him According then to M. de Condom's Principles private persons ought consequently to have stuck to that and rejected Jesus Christ M. de Condom called this Argument of Mr. Claude's a Jewish
mistaken for a true an Antiquity of some Ages standing which is really no better than a Novelty for an Antiquity of all Ages of the Church which in the business of Religion is the highest injustice imaginable He added moreover that this prejudice was of very pernicious consequence because at this rate when once Errors and Superstitions had by insensible degrees crept into Religion and Custom or the Schools had given them countenance there would no possible means be left of exposing or extirpating them For the maintainers of them will be continually objecting against those that endeavour it that they set up a new Church and a new Religion Thus it was that the Pharisees accused Jesus Christ for an Innovator upon pretence that his Disciples kept not the Traditions of the Elders which were indeed but Innovations themselves Thus the Jews taxed St. Paul for a Mover of Sedition among them through the whole world and being a Ringleader of the Sect of the Nazarenes which they lookt upon as a new Sect. Thus all the Apostles were charged by the Heathens for being disturbers of the publick peace and bringers up of New things because they endeavoured to root out the old Errors out of mens hearts and bring them to the worship of the one only true God maker of Heaven and Earth M. de Condom replied That Jesus Christ was new that the Jews expected the Messias that John Baptist Anna the Prophetess Simeon and the wise men had owned him True said Mr. Claude he was not really new for he is the same yesterday to day and for ever But he was new to that whole Nation which expected a temporal Messiah and did not see in him any sign of what they expected He was new in their opinion in that he condemned the old Traditions His Church was new to them because it separated from the Body of the Jews and made a distinct body which they had never seen before And as for John Baptist Anna the Prophetess Simeon and the wise men what were these single private persons if compared to the whole body of Priest Pharisees and Lawyers and the whole Body of all the Jews in general which never owned him but lookt for an earthly Messias It is plain then that this prejudice of Novelty forbidding men to examine things to the bottom and not distinguishing between a true and a counterfeit Antiquity accounting that old which was practised yesterday and every thing new that is contrary to what was in vogue yesterday is a very ill and dangerous prejudice It fortifies Jews and Heathens against the Christian Religion and indeed was continually made use of by Celsus and the rest of them that opposed Christianity I own said M. de Condom that the Heathens did upbraid the Christians with their Novelty but the Christians demonstrated to them that the Jews always believed in the same God they worshipped and did expect the same Messias they proâ—est What you say answer'd Mr. Claude is a further confirmation of my opinion to wit that you ought not out of prejudice conclude for what appears to be new but search things throughly to know certainly whether what appears to be new be so in truth The Heathens accusation proceeded from your prejudice and the Christians defence of themselves is according to my principle For it was by an exact examination of things that the Christians demonstrated they were not new tho the World looked upon them so and that what they opposed in the Heathen superstitions was really new tho taken to be old The Conference having lasted a very great while near upon five hours and being carried on with abundance of earnestness in the disputants on both sides and of attention from the standers by the Company now began to interpose and so the dispute broke off After which Mr. Claude applied himself to M. de Condom with a great deal of civility and respect and intreated him that the difference between their Religions and Opinions might not incline him to think less kindly of him That he for his part should ever retain a very high value and esteem for so deserving a person M. de Condom returned him this very obliging answer That he had some knowledg of him before by his Writings but was exceeding glad to know his person now by this Conference in the management whereof he had done all that could possibly by done for the vindication of his Cause and that whenever any opportunity of serving him offered it self he would very willingly and heartily lay hold on it Presently after M. de Condom went away and Mr. Claude having first returned thanks to the Company particularly to the Lady Mareschalless de Lorge for their patience and attention took his leave of Mademoiselle de Duras in words to this purpose That he had vindicated the Truth before her and all that was now left for him to do was only to beseech Almighty God in her behalf and to exhort her that she would improve what she had now heard to the settling her more firmly in that Religion which God had called her to and not suffer her self to be shaken by any temptation And these things he would not fail to request of God for her Mademoiselle de Duras thank'd him very kindly for the trouble he had been at and very passionately begged his Prayers Which Mr. Claude having promised presently withdrew THE END ERRATA IN the Preface Pag. xi for Palmenia read Palmeria p. xviii l. 1. f were r. wave In the Answer p. 2. l. 3. f your r. our p. 7. in the Marg. r. Ephes 1. 22 23. p. 8. l. 18. f rose r. goes p. 10. l. 14. f Good r. Goods p. 23. l. 17. f. in r. on p. 24. l. 10. after she r is p. 31. l. 23. f. knows r. follows p. 32. l. 1. f. as r. is p. 35. l. 13. dele That p. 42. l. 2. after for â—â—us ibid. l 3. for this r. his p. 60. l. 20. dele If p. 67. l. 1. f. frequent r. freely * Ecclesia est â—eâ—us homiâ—â—m ita visibiâ—â— palpaâ—lis ut est caeâ—â—s populi Roâ—ani vel Regâ—um Galliae 〈◊〉 Respubliâ— Venetorum â—ellarmin de â—ccles Lib. 3. cap. 2. Edit â—ugdum 1587. * Baronius ad Ann. 900 de Stephano septimo Stephanus Apostolcae sedis invaso paulo post facinorosus homo quique ut fur latro ingressus est in oâ—â—le ovium Ad ann 908. de Sergio primo Perpetrata sunt ista ab invasoribus intrusis in Apostolicam sedem Pontificis nomen usurpantibus illegitime thronum Apostolicum invadentibus ad Ann 912. de Joanne decimo qui post Landonem Petri cathedram ascendit Theodorae scorti tunc temporis potentissimi auspiciis Quae tunc facies Ecclesiae Romanae Cum darentur Episcopi intruderentur in sedem Petri meretricum amasii Pseudopontifices qui non sint nisi ad consignanda tantum tempora in Catalogo Romanorum Pontificum scripti Annal.
Fountain that is the Church of Christ How shall we reconcile this Doctrine with M. de Condom 's who distinguishes between the Church of Christ and the predestinate as between a whole and it's part who counts the reprobates in too and blames us for restraining the Church to the number of God's Elect alone This being a point of consequence and able to determine all our Controversy concerning the Church I hope it may not be tedious to hear what St. Augustin says further upon it After having recited a passage taken out of â—t Cyprian's Epistle to Magnus he goes on thus The words of blessed Cyprian shew that he rightly understood the beauty of God's House in that he declares and proves both by the testimony of the Prophets and the signification of the Sacraments that this House is composed of men living in Peace and unity of Heart So that those envious uncharitable Wretches were not in this House notwithstanding they were baptised And by consequence Christ's Holy Sacrament may be both administred and received by men not in the Church of Christ because as appears by the Testimony of Cyprian none but the peaceable live in this Church It will not serve the turn to say they might baptize while they were hid they were not hidden from St. Paul when he said in his Epistle he rejoyced that Christ was preached even by such whether in pretence or in truth says he Christ is preached and I therein do rejoyce yea and will rejoyce Upon these considerations I do not think it reshness in me to affirm that some are in the House of God so as that they are themselves the very House that which is said to be built upon a Rock called his Dove his only One his beautiful Spouse without spot or wrinkle the inclosed Garden the sealed Fountain the Well of living Water the Orchard with Pomegranates and which HAth received the Keys the power of binding and loosing this House it is whose corrections if any man contemptuously behave himself against he is ordered to be to us as an Heathen and a Publicar Of this it is said Lord I have loved the Beauty of thy House and the place where thine Honour dwelleth He maketh men of one mind in an house I was glad when they said unto me we will go into the House of the Lord. Blessed are they that dwell in thy House they will be alway praising Thee and a world of such like passages This House is called the good seed bringing forth fruit with patience thirty sixty and a hundred fold This House consists of Vessels of gold and of silver of precious stones and incorruptible wood To this House 't is said Bear up one another in love endeavouring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace And the Holy Temple of God are ye For this consists of the true Believers and holy Servants of God dispersed throughout the Universe and all knit together in a spiritual Unity by the participation of the same Sacraments whether personally known to one another or not As for the rest they are said to be in the House but it is in such a manner that they belong not at all to the building nor have any part of that fellowship which brings forth the fruit of righteousness and peace They are here as the Chaff is among the Corn for we cannot deny that they be contained in the House because St. Paul says In a great house are vessels not only of gold and silver but also of wood and of earth and some to honour and some to dishonour I cannot imagine how St. Augustin'S sight came to differ so mightily from M. de Condam'S If we believe the latter by the Church must be understood a Society composed of good and bad men for he tells you to such a Society only are those passages of Scripture applicable Vpon this rock will I build my Church Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might make it a glorious Church without spot or wrinkle c. If he refuse to hear the Church let him be unto thee as an Heathen c. Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven c. But if St. Augustin be to be believed we must take the Church in a quite different sense for a Society made up of none but righteous persons and true Believers because to such a one and no other do these passages belong In his Opinion the just alone are the House built upon a Rock the Spouse without spot or wrinkle they only have the keys and power of binding and loosing 't is their censures only that men ought not to despise if they would not be looked upon as Heathens and Publicans M. de Condom deduces his Arguments from these passages St. Augustin deduces his from the very same and yet their Conclusions are opposite to one another All that we have left to do then is either to correct St. Augustin by M. de Condom or M. de Condom by St. Augustin and of the two methinks the latter is the more reasonable Upon this ground then I will once more introduce that Father speaking thus We must not suppose that wicked men belong to Christ's body i. e. the Church because they do partake of the Sacraments corporally The Sacraments themselves are holy in such persons but they do but increase their condemnation because they administer and receive them unworthily Now they are not of that Company of Christ's Church which consists of his Members compacted together by bands and joynts and increaseth with the increase of God For this Church is built on a Rock according to that of our Saviour Vpon this rock will I build my Church But those build on the Sand as the same Saviour said Whoso heareth my Words and doth them not I will comapre him to a foolish man that built his house upon the sand Now lest you should fancy that the Church built upon a Rock is in any one particular place or that it is not extended over the whole Earth observe her complaint in the Psalm From the ends of the Earth have I cryed unto thee when my heart was in heaviness Thou hast set me up upon a rock She cries from the ends of the Earth therefore she is not in Africa and no where else she is set up upon a Rock therefore those must not be esteemed of her who build upon the Sand. There is some probability St. Augustin knew what he said and yet you see a passage of Scripture Ephes 4. abused by M. de Condom in favour of his Church made up of a mixture of good and bad men which this Father explains of the Church of the Just only as well as that other of St. Matt. 16. Vpon this Rock will I build my Church He teaches the same Doctrine in his Book concerning the Unity
Church and not his Fathers or Mothers Mr. Claude returned That this was a thing too evident to be denied that the Fathers and Mothers and those who take the first pains about educating the Child is the first Authority with respect to Religion and that he must at first of all learn from them that there is such a thing as a Catholick Church into which he must enter himself or such a thing as the Scripture which was from God and to which he must yield Obedience That being upon enquiry by what mean the Child can come to believe the Catholick Churches Authority there is a necessity for fixing either upon Inspiration or the Paternal Authority or the Scriptures which informed him concerning it M. de Condom answered That the Childs Faith in the Churches Authority was a Divine Faith because it was the Holy Ghost that wrought it in him Mr. Claude replied That the question was not concerning the efficient Cause which produced this Faith in the Child but concerning the Motive or Argument by which it was produced If M. de Condom's meaning were that the Holy Ghost wrought Faith in this Child without any Argument or Motive at all this were a sort of Enthusiasm and the Holy Ghost does not Influence People at that rate M. de Condom said there were indeed Motives of Credibility Mr. Claude returned hereupon That if he would allow the Child so much time as to examine those Motives of Credibility for the Authority of the Church and perceive their strength He himself would in like manner allow the same Child time to examine the Motives of Credibility for the Authority of Scripture and perceive the strength of them but in this case he must forego his Argument which proceeds upon a Supposition that the Child never yet read the Scripture But is not this true said M. de Condom That in these circumstances the Child either does or does not doubt of the Scriptures being Divine And is it not as true said Mr. Claude That in these Circumstances the Child either does or does not doubt of the Churches Authority For if you take the Child before he have read the Scripture I will look upon him too before he knows what Motives of Credebility there are for the Churches Authority It is your part to answer my Argument and the very same answer you give will serve me against yours But do you as you think fit I however will not scruple to give a direct answer to your way of reasoning The Child then may be lookt upon with Distinction as to three several times either before his Father have ever shewed him the Bible and informed him that this Book came from God or after his Father have told him thus much but before he himself have read it or lastly after that he hath read the Book himself As to the first of these times which is that your Argument looks upon him in it cannot well be said that then he either does or does not doubt for neither the one nor the other is strictly true according to your meaning Not to doubt of any thing signifies to be well assured of it Now before a man can be said to doubt or to be well assured that any thing is so or so he must first have some knowledge of the thing it self I can neither doubt nor be assured that such a Person is King of Spain unless I first have some knowledg of the Person So that your reasoning is by no means good that a Child either does or does not doubt of the Scripture's being Divine For there is a medium between these two to wit such as consists in a state called An Ignorance of pure negation He knows not as yet what the Scripture is nor hath ever heard talk of it To doubt or not doubt whether Scripture be Divine a Man must have some knowledg and form some Idea of the thing But the Child can never form any Idea of a Book he never heard once mentioned At the second point of time when his Father hath showed him the Bible and told him that Book is the Word of God but the Child hath not yet read it himself he believes it to be the Word of God but this he does not by a Divine but humane Faith because his Father hath told him so And this is the case of a Catechumen At the third point of time when he is supposed to have read the Book himself and felt the virtue and efficacy of it he believes it to be God's World but this he does not now by a humane Faith because his Father told him so but by a Divine Faith because he hath found the Divinity and Efficacy of it upon himself and this is the condition of a Believer M. de Condom laid hold of the word Catechumen and said that this was a Christian one already Baptized and actually admitted into Covenant with God Mr. Claude answered that by the word Catechumen he meant nothing else but a Child after Baptism at the time of his being instructed in the first Rudiments of Religion M. de Condom beat again upon almost the same things that had been said before constantly affirming it to be the Churches Authority that the Child received the Scriptures as Divine and that having received them as such from the Church he did afterwards receive the meaning and interpretation of them from thence also Pray Sir tell me said Mr. Claude then when a Child learns at first of all that there is a Catholick Church Is it barely a general Idea which consists in knowing only that there is such a thing as a Catholick Church without knowing where or which it is or does it determine him to that Church whose publick Assemblies he sees For if it be the former of these this as you would make it is a mighty wild and insignificant principle of Faith I know that there is a Catholick Church to whose Authority it is my duty to submit but I cannot tell where that Church is nor which is she this would be but an odd principle of Faith The Child said M. de Condom does certainly determine this Idea to the particular Church whose Assemblies he sees and in which he himself bears a part and does believe that to be the Catholick Church and not barely that there is such a Church Let us imagine then said Mr. Claude a Child born within a Church that is Heretical or Schismatical the Aethiopian Church suppose the first principle of Faith in this Child will be from the Aethiopian Church looking upon that as the Catholick From this Church then and from her Authority according to your Tenet he will receive the Scripture as Divine from her likewise he will receive the meaning and interpretation of Scripture and he must never afterwards believe himself priviledged to examine the determinations of his Aethiopick Church for fear of falling into the inconvenience and absurdity of fancying it impossible for him a private single
person to understand the true meaning of Scripture better than the whole body of the Church Tell me now Sir whether according to this principle this Child be not obliged always to abide within that Heretical or Schismatical Church Tell me what means you will contrive for him to get out of it It is evident then that your principle would serve as well to continue a Jew in his Judaism a Pagan in his Heathenism and a Heretick in his Heresy as an Orthodox Christian in the true Church To this M. de Condom replied that in the perswasion of that Aethiopian Child we must make a difference between that part which proceeded from the Holy Spirit and that which is the effect of prejudice and humane prepossession That the Holy Spirit 's dictate was in general that there was a Catholick Church somewhere or other but his supposal that the Church in which he was born was that Catholick Church proceeded from humane prepossession It is true he did from this Church receive the Scriptures and belived them to be Divine for no other reason but upon its Authority But afterwards as he was reading the Scriptures the Holy Ghost raised in him some scruples about the Church he was born in and by this means he came off from the Heresy and Schism he found himself insnared in Mr. Claude returned that M. de Condom must of necessity either retract his principle or confess what he now alledged to be utterly impossible Because this Aethiopian neither can nor must be allowed to understand the Scriptures any otherwise than in the sense and interpretation of his own Church by whose Authority it is that he believes them to be Divine and from whose hands he receives their meaning so that when he reads Scripture there can never start up any scruples in his mind against the truth of his own Church because he never expounds any Text of Scripture but in agreement with the sense of that Church about it Now if on the other side your meaning be that this person expounds Scripture of his own head and according to his own judgment so taking it in a sense different from that of the Church you at the same time make him forego the principle that you have all this while been contending for and it is not you only that make him forego it but you do besides maintain that the Holy Ghost himself makes him forego it and all those mighty inconveniences you exclaimed against vanish into nothing He added moreover that what M. de Condom said last justified the measures the Protestants had taken in relation to the Church of Rome for altho that had been believed to be the Catholick Church in the time of our Infancy tho we had received the Scriptures from her and believed them to be of Divine Authority yet must we not be blamed for making a difference between that part of this belief which proceeded from the Holy Ghost and that which was the effect of humane Prepossession and Prejudice We cannot be found fault with for having admitted some Scruples against the Truth of this Church as we read the Scriptures and for having upon this accout withdrawn our selves from her Communion M. de Condom said the Cases did still differ in this circumstance That the Ethiopian when he left his own would betake himself to the Catholick Church whereas the Pretended Reformed have not put themselves into any other Communion at all You courted indeed Jeremy's the Patriarch of Constantinople but he would have nothing to do with you The separation was not from our selves said Mr. Claude and that is enough to shew that we have not separated from the true Church If Jeremy the Patriarch of Constantinople would have nothing to do with us as you say that was to his own loss and he did not do as he should have done in it Upon this the Company rose and the Conference which lasted some time longer grew a great deal more confused several things were then spoken of M. de Condom exaggerated much and pretended to draw a parallel between the separation of the Protestants and that of the old Hereticks particularly the Arrians and Macedonians that set up new Churches by themselves Mr. Claude compared the Protestants behaviour to that of Christ's Apostles when they separated from the Jews that as the Apostles relied on Scripture against the Jews who relied upon Ecclesiastical Assemblies and their Authority the Protestants did the same against the Church of Rome He said the Arrians maintained that the Consubstantiality of the Son of God determined by the Nicene Council was a Novel Doctrine and that many other persons had in truth exprest themselves very unadvisedly concerning the Divinity of the Son among others he instanced in Origea Justin Martyr and the Council of Antioch As for Origen M. de Condom said he was a suspected Author and the Council of Antioch said he was an Arrian Council to which Mr. Claude replied that he was much mistaken for that Council was held before Arrius his time and yet rejected the Term Consubstantial As to Justin Martyr How Sir said he a Martyr speak amiss of the Divinity of the Son of God! I will never believe a word on 't You may believe what you think sit Sir said Mr. Claude but for all that the thing is even so Afterwards M. de Condom put himself upon the Invocation of Saints and Prayers for the Dead For the first of these he told them Mr. Daille had allowed it to be Thirteen hundred years old and Mr. Blondell acknowledged the second to be of great Antiquity Mr. Claude replied it was no great wonder if the Church of Rome which had collected and Cononized the Errors and Superstitions of former Ages had picked up some that were of a good old standing But he ought to have said withal that Mr. Daille had made it appear that for Three hundred years together there was not to be found the least footsteps of Invocation of Saints and especially that there was not any manner of ground for it in Scripture That he acknowledged Prayer for the Dead to be one of the oldest superstitions but there was a mighty difference between the practice of the Primitive Christians and the modern devotions of the Romish Church And after all it was an Error contrary to the principles of Scripture M. de Condom betook himself again to the Comparison between the Protestants and Hereticks of old inferring from thence that they and their Church was new and upstart Mr. Claude shewed him that this prejudice was extremely unjust and of very pernicious consequence Unjust because on one hand it placed the advantage on the strongest side and those that have most of their party whereas the Scripture teaches us quite contrary That we must not follow a multitude to do evil For the strongest side are continually taxing others with making a new Body and a new Church Unjust secondly because a false Antiquity may be