Ministerie though with corruptions how wil they be able to bear out such as are excoÌ„municated for so great contempt and errour 3. Thirdly as Antichristians doo excoÌ„municate such as they should not so doo they baptise such as they ought not even open impenitent Idolaters and their seed the generation of Vipers which Iohn Baptist would refuse Yea Mr Iohnson himself hath sayd of a better estate then Romes that Gods covenant is sacrilegiously violated whiles it is sayd to the open wicked in delivering them the seals of Gods covenant Thou art righteous Therfore if the Popes excoÌ„municatorie bulls are but bubbles because they are unjustly executed his baptisme also will be found but a fiction no true seal of salvation to such as receive it of him Finally touching circumcision I think it cannot be manifested that any people 's fallen from God and his Church using it colourablie for a religious action as al Antichristians and heretiks doo baptism at this day did or were bound to cutt their foreskin the second time if they came unto the truth of God as for example the Colchians Aegyptians and Aethiopians whom histories mentioÌ„ to be circumcised or the Samaritans whom Mr Iohnson acknowledgeth to have stil vsed circumcision Hereunto we may add out of the Iewish records how they hold that Al have leav to circumcise yea though it be an uncircumcised person or a servant or a woman or a child circumcising in the place where ther is no man But an hethen may not circumcise at al yet if he doo circumcise ther is no need to return circumcise the second time If this rule stand we shal not need to repeat our outward washing in baptism though given us by Antichrist or any other aliants from the church covenant of promise Of the Church of Rome The Church of Rome being acknowledged by al that fear God to be the throne of Antichrist Mr Iohnson himself having professed that the hierachie and Church-constitution of Antichrist is the most detestable anarchie of Satan that ever was yet imitating now M. Gifford M. Bernard and other professed enemies of the truth he pleads for that Church after this manner The Apostle expressly teacheth that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God 2. Thes. 2 4. And by the Temple understanding the Church of God it wil folow that Antichrist should sit in the Church of God and is there to be sought and found and not among Jewes Turks Pagans c. neyther that Antichrist takes away wholly the church of God and every truth and ordinance of the Lord c. I answer truth errour are closely couched togither in this their plea for the discerning wherof we are to consider first how Antichrists church is described in Gods word secondly what the state of the church of Rome is at this day The Antichristian synagogue is by the holy Ghost caled a Beast which signifyeth a kingdom it is named also a great citie which noteth the largenes of that politie and kingdom It cometh up out of the earth as being of this world which Christs kingdom that coÌ„meth down from heaven is not and therfore is caled a man of syn and a great whore whose head is Abaddon or Apollyon the destroyer of others and himself the son of perdition and they that follow him are the children of damnation This wicked generation warreth against the Lamb Christ and against the saincts blasphemeth Gods name tabernacle and them that dwel in heaven â—hat is the true Church whose conversation is heavenly Yet doo they all this mischeif under shew of Christian religion therfore this beast hath horns like the Lamb Christ this whore is arayed with purple skarlet guilded with gold precious stones and pearles as if she were the Queen and spowse of Christ she hath peace offrings Vovves as if she were devowt in Gods service bread and waters as ready to refresh the weary sowls Her doctrines sweet amiable lyeâ— spoken in hypocrisie but yet confirmed with signes and miracles as if they came from heaven her power and efficacie great prevayling over the many and the mighty the Kings Princes of world deceiving al nations with her inchantments and if it were possible Gods very elect her continuance and outward prosperitie long her end miserable consumed with the spirit of the Lords mouth and abolished with the brightnes of his coÌ„ming and for her destruction the heavens shall rejoyce and sing praises to God Now for to find the accomplishment of these things we are directed by the now Romish religion to a Catholik or Vniversal church one part wherof lives on earth an other under the earth and a third part in heaven 1. On earth is the whole multitude of such as are named Christians through the world united as a catholik body under one visible head the Pope who with his 2 horns like the Lamb pretendeth to be Christs Vicar in the Kingdom Preisthood and is professed of his vassals to be that triâ—d precious corner stone that sure foundation in Sion Jsa 28.16 and it is declared defined and pronounced that it is of necessity to salvation for al men to be subject unto him Vnder this Captain are three bands of souldiers the first clergie men as Bishops Preists Deacons Subdeacons and the rest of those shavelings the second Lay men as Kings Pinces Nobles Citizens and Commons of al sorts and vocations the third sort is both of the Clergie and Laitie caled Monks or Regulars 2. Vnder the earth or in Purgatorie fyre are the sowles they say of al such as dye with venial synns whose payns are to be holpen by prayers and masses sayd for them by such as are alive on earth 3. In heaven are the sowls of men departed in the popish fayth and delivered from purgatorie some of which the Pope canonizeth for Saincts whom the people on earth are religiously to honour and pray unto as their mediators with God This church on earth cannot err in things which it commandeth men to beleev oâ— doo whither they be expressed in scripture or not therfore men must beleev in her and trust her in al things for the truth of the faith as touching us relyeth upon her authoritie and she hath power to make lawes which doo bind and constreyn mens consciences These things premissed I come to our Opposites arguments Their first reason from 2. Thes. 2.4 is unperfectly alledged for the text there sayth of the man of syn that he dooth sit as God in the TeÌ„ple of God wherupon their conclusion must be that Antichrist sitteth as God in the church of God And if they can prove that he is the true God I wil yeild that his temple is the true temple his Church the true
a beast to bear rule 6. Here also they doo violence to the Apostles similitude of a body and say when a part of the body is hurt the hand is not used nor sought unto to see withal nor the foot to hear neyther dooth the head take them to consult and determine what to doo but when the head it self hath considered and determined then it useth the help of the hand or foot c. as ther is need and occasion I answer 1. first much abuse may be offred to al parables by wresting them beyond their general scope as is here to this For by this manner of reasoning the Elders as the head have al the wit and the people as the hands and feet have none at al. The Elders as the eyes see al things but the people see no more then the ears For if the people have some understanding and insight into matters as wel as the Elders why should they not be used also in consulting and determining publick things which cōcern al. Vnless the Elders now have such abundance of wisdom as they can afford ynough to al and need supply from none But the scripture tells the contrary saying who is sufficient for these things 2. Cor. 2.16 And what meant the Apostles and Elders of Ierusalem to have al the people with them at their consulation determination of a controversie Act. 15.2 22 23. And why did th'Apostles being the eyes speak to the multitude which it seemeth saw no more then doo the hands and feet to look out men of wisdom for office among them Act. 6.2.3 But what if there be of the people that see more then all their Elders being illuminated as was David by Gods precepts what if the Elders be blind guides as Christ caleth some without understanding as the prophet cōplayneth Then men must leav the blind Eldership and goe to the prudent brethren and they must consult and determine yea without the Elders if these men say true Doe not these things manifest how they have wrested the similitude 2. Secondly it is direct against the Apostles meaning who because of dissentions in the church of Corinth sheweth by that similitude of a body that the chiefest members have need of the inferiour and the head cannot say to the feet I have no need of yow but now the Elders can say to the people we need not your help to judge and determine questions and controversies this gift and duty is ours neyther are yow bound to be present to hear and decide publick causes but when we have judged you shal execute our judgments And if the people agayn should say to the Elders when they are about choise of officers we need not your help or counsel you are not bound to be present when we doo this busynes the feet have no more need of the eyes to goe then the eyes have of the feet to see Were not this to make a division in the body which th'Apostle there condemneth 3. Moreover it is vayn to think that any officer or brother in the Church should so be one special member of the body as that he cannot be an other The Prophets in Israel were Seers and so in sted of eyes in the head but when they looked out vayn things then as the Lord saith the Prophet that taught lies was the tayl Jsa 9.15 The Elders by directing the church in the right way are as eyes to the body by administring the sacraments and censures they are as hands when they are sent on the Churches message they are as feet when they reprove synns they are as the mouth when they are reproved for their synns they should be as ears and so other Christians in their places and imployments And as God hath bestowed his graces upon any so is he to be regarded of al without respect of person neyther should the Elders be minded like Achitophel and take it yll if at any time their counsel be not folowed A man may see that in the Church which Solomō saw in the beseiged citie a poor wise man that delivered the citie by his wisdom though both he and his wisdom were despised A woman in Abel when it was in danger to be spoyled perswaded al the people with her wisdom to cut off Shebaes head and so preserved the city Was she in this action a part of the foot or of the hart and head in that body may we think 4. Finally this their reasoning is one with the Iesuits that exclude the people frō church affayrs The Church sayth Bellarmine bindeth and looseth but by their Prelates not by whomsoever even as the body speaketh but by the tongue not by the hand Thus dooth the Cardinal answer M. Luthers argument and thus doo these men answer ours 6. Yet have they not sayd ynough but they will make it Antichristian servitude to have the people bound to come to the publick ecclesiastical judgements unless perhaps when the Elders call them togither to execute their sentence for then I trow they are bound to come And is not this agayn to divide the body when the head must be present and the showlders with the other parts and members may be absent The Apostle writing to the Church of Corinth how to doo when they came togither for the Lords supper writeth also to them how when they were gathered togither they should deliver the wicked unto Satan We find no difference but they were bound to come to the one as to the other And if they answer they are bound to assemble for to excommunicate him but not to hear him by the word convinced in the trial of his cause they may as wel teach the people they are bound to come to eat the bread and wine in the Lords supper but not bound to hear the word teaching and preparing them here unto We doo so understand Gods law that when it commandeth us any thing it dooth also command us to use al means for the right and holy performance of it and al wil be litle ynough The people therfore that were bound to stone an idolater in Israel were bound by that law thow shalt not slay the innocent to look that he were duly convicted of the crime and now by this law be not partaker of other mens synns keep thy self pure every sowl that is bound to cast out a man condemned for heresie or other syn is also bound to see him convicted least Diotrephes cause to cast out faithful brethren He that stands out to excommunication wil cōmonly plead his cause to be just and complayn that the Elders have perverted judgmēt with what comfort of hart can the people now excōmunicate him if they have not heard the proceedings against him and yet must execute the Elders sentence upon him Let wise men judge whither this be not spiritual tyrannie which the Elders would bring upon the
be delivered to Satan and cast out frō among them verse 4.5.13 he did not purpose that the Elders should deliver and cast him out publikly the people privately all being gathered togither for that busines When he would have them purge out the old leven that they might keep the passover with unleavened bread verse 7.8 he meant not that the Ministers should purge the leven and keep the feast publikly the church privately neyther did the type of the Passover in Israel teach them such a thing No nor the judging of malefactors in Israel for when the Magistrates gave sentence of death and the people stoned wicked persons at the gates of the cities the rulers fact was not then publik and the peoples private the scripture teacheth us not thus to distinguish nor reason it self but that the execution was a part of the publik judgement The Apostle writeth in 1. Cor. 5. to all the Church blaming their neglect of the Censure even as in 1. Cor. 11. he writeth to al reproving their abuse in the Lords supper Wherfore if mē wil they may misapply this distinctiō to all church actiōs as to Sacramēts prayers election of officers and the like making them publik in the Elders and private in the church or people and so as the Papists doo also in other cases give all lay men but a private spirit as they use to speak and the ministers onely a publik We find not that Christian people are more excluded from being publik members of the body and actors with their ministers in the Kingdom of Christ then they are in the Preisthood and prophesie And we know no reason why the Pastor himself if he consent not with the Church in casting out such an incestuous person may not be sayd to have a private judgment as wel as an other man But by such popish distinctions the clergie were severed from the laitie and so the people by degrees turned out of al. And what now doo these our Opposits allow the people if they see their Elders to corrupt judgment therfore doo dissent frō thē they make it but the dissent of particular persons judgment from the publik of what sexe or condition soever they be the Christian Magistrate when he is a member of the Church not excepted touching ecclesiastical proceedings and it is to be regarded they say as there shal be cause they mean I trow as the Elders themselves shall see cause And so if a church have 3. or 4. officers and they corrupted with heresie or other vice the whole congregation of people of what condition soever any persons be can pass no publik ecclesiastical judgment upon them by this doctrine as for their private judgement or censure the Elders themselves wil regard it as there shal be cause If this be not a Prelacie which the Elders would usurp I know not what is But of these things see after in this Treatise pag. 22 23. 3. Come wee to reproches disgracings of the truth and way of God and wee shall see among the Papists how they disdeyn that the people should medle in matters of religion and judging of controversies They complayn of them for their ignorance unrulynes disobedience unto government they say the Protestants reason as Chore Dathan and Abyram did Nū 16. when they rebelled against Moses Aaron the Ministers of God saying that there needeth here in the Church no head to govern it because Christ is alwayes with it And did not those wicked men sayth the Papist in their rebelliō against Moses Arō vse the same reasō when they told thē to their face let it suffice you that al the multitude is holy they have God present with thē And why then take you upō your selves the rule over the people of our Lord As who would say having no need of any other ruler God being with them c. The very same reproches doo our Opposites now cast upon us advancing the Elders disgracing the people by intimating their simplicity errour charging us as oppugners of government and abusing against vs the example of Corah Dathā and Abiram as we have often heard with greif telling us we goe upon their grounds and the like For which we wish they may find repentance and mercy with the Lord least he turn the evil upon their own heads as Moses then did upon the Levites For unto them it seemed a smal thing that the God of Israel had separated them from the multitude of Israel to take them neer unto himself to doo the service of the Tabernacle to stand before the Congregatiō and to minister vnto them but they sought the office of the Preist also so these our opposers are not contēt with their office to be separated unto the gospel of God to stand and minister before and unto the Congregation but wil needs be the Congregation it self and take more authoritie then is given them from heaven wherof see after in this book pag. 17.21.22.23 c. 4. What enmitie and persecution the Papists have raysed against the withstanders of their heresies I need not speak al nations have felt of their cruelty Neyther would I here mention our opposite brethrens hard measure to us but that themselves have printed and seek to defend it cease not stil to prosecute their purposes against us Although themselves have lately professed practised publikly mainteyned the truthes which now they oppugn and persecute and bringing innovation into the Church would needs obtrude their errours upon our consciences eyther in judgment or in practise or in both Yea breaking the peace which thēselves had devised agreed unto and confirmed because their brethren would not agree to the undoing of themselves and their families for the satisfying of their wills as is after manifested in this treatise pag. 123 c. If the Lord should reward them according to their works herein towards us their account wil be heavy but my prayer shal be against their evils 5. Wheras many Treatises have been written in defense of the truthes we mainteyn these our Opposers answer them not neyther yet are they silent nor wil give rest unto others but urge aad provoke more writing stil. For the Churches power now in controversie our Apologie bringeth nine reasons these have answered onely one of them which is the sixt drawn from Mat. 18.17 all the other they let stand And yet what clamours have we heard because their exceptions against that one are not by us refuted So in our other articles of differences the scriptures and reasons set down in our Apologie and other books they pass by without answer If they can make any colourable exception they spare it not otherwise for want of argument they fall to asking of questions seeking if they can to insnare us Of which things the reader may see after in this book pag. 45 c. 51. c. 59 c. 23
who had power from God to give the blessing and the action was also confirmed by the evidence of Gods spirit afterward but this people upon our opposites doctrine had no authority from God to doo as they did neyther could they shew any confirmation of the work by God if our former grounds fayl us The sentence given in the end by the Elders that leaned to the Pastors error was not that discourse they speak of at the end of the Treatise on Mat. 18. for that was privately penned afterward by the Pastor himself but a breif and yet large approbation of the things which the Pastor had shewed to be the truth and a promise that by the grace of God they would so practise Vpon which sentence giving we on the contrary approved our former profession published and shewed sundry reasons which hereafter shal be set down why we could not yeild to their new vowed practise And because they alwayes sought to extenuate the controversie as if it were but a strife about words or about the meaning of Mat. 18.17 We purposely prevented it signifying expressly before we parted that we would bear with them in their understanding of Mat. 18.17 so as they would yeild the point in controversie which was about the Churches power from other scriptures shewing it also by an other case that if we had to deal upon John 1. with an Arian that denyes the godhead of Christ if he would plainly and sincerely yeild to the truth of that doctrine though he thought it not proved by Iohn 1 where yet it is evidently proved we would bear with him therin And this we still offer unfeighnedly to these our opposite brethren let them yet directly and plainly renounce the error it self touching the power of the church now ingrossed into the Elders hands and the other errours that necessarily flow from the same and we wil bear with their judgement concerning Mat. 18.17 though we think of it otherweise that doo they Moreover seing we offred much more which concerneth not onely Mat. 18.17 but al other scriptures that we would notwithstanding our difference of judgement have continued together if our former practise might have been reteyned and themselves in their Advertisement can not deny this how doo they then bear the world in hand that the breach among us vvas for the understanding of Math. 18.17 Touching their Treatise on Mat. 18.17 the causes why I have not answered it are 1. When others heretofore as namely Mr. Smyth wrote against the truth which they formerly professed we al thought best not to answer til the second and third time we were excedingly provoked for we considered how the coÌ„mon adversary would rejoyce at our intestine troubles The same I minded here and these men should if they were not partial have doon the like 2. I had experience in former dealing vvith M. Smyth of his unstayednes that vvould not stand to the things vvhich himself had vvritten I mind the like in these Opposites vvho are not setled for the constitution of their Church and Ministerie upon any ground that I knovv of unless it be popish succession Their former vvritings about the Church and ministery and their present estate wil not stand togither Seing those books are unanswered by others they should answer them if they can themselves and shew us by Gods word what is allowable vvhat disallovvable in them Till they doo this vvho vvould vvillingly deal vvith them 3. Ther are 9. reasons in that our Apologie to confirm the povver of the Church novv in question the foresaid Treatise dealeth but against one of them leaving the rest there and vvhatsoever is vvritten of that argumeÌ„t in other our books unansvvered what reason have they to cal so upon others to write when so much is already written If they yeild us the cause upon the other reasons we wil not strive about the meaning of one scripture as before vve shevved 4. The meaning of Mat. 18.17 is handled by Mr. Robinson against Mr Bernard vvhose book our opposites so much respected and the false gloses upon that text sufficiently refuted vvhy doo not these men ansvver the things there vvritten but cal styl for more as if al men must leav other studies to folovv them in their hunting for preeminence 5. I have had intelligence of Mr. Robinsons further purpose to ansvver in particular that their treatise as occasion shal be given And in deed I for the love and respect that I have alvvayes had to these novv opposite brethren have desired their conviction rather by others then by my self vvho are both better able to perform it and are likely to be more regarded then I and to doo it vvith less publik scandal to the vvorld vvho desire nothing more then to see us that vvere so neerly joyned to sharpen our penns one against another Thus have I been stayed hitherto though novv as the things in that Treatise are repeted in this their Advertisement I shal discover also the insufficiencie of their reasons there alleged Novv as the Advertiser shevveth by examples of troubles in â—hurches heretofore that the godly vvise should not be offended at these dissensions accordingly doo I desire all syncere harted for to vvalk And further that he himself vvith others vvould look into the 3. particulars that he allegeth 1. For the troubles in Corinth the Apostle composeth by shevving the Church their place in Christ above their ministers 1. Cor. 3.21.22.23 vvhich might also if it vvere vvel observed end the strife that is novv among us 2. The contention about Easter as it vvas evil in it self being about mens traditions so vvas it as ill caried For they learned not to redress things as Paul before taught 1. Cor. 3. but contrarivveise as Hierom after telleth us by setting up one Elder about others that the seeds of schismes might be taken away Which humane vvisdom furthering the mysterie of Antichrist so far prevailed that about this their Easter strife Victor Bishop of Rome determined to have excoÌ„municated the East churches and had doon it but that Irenaeus blamed him and stayed it Thus ambition having vvrung the povver first out of the vvhole Churches hands into the Elders onely and then out of the Elders hands joyntly into ones alone began to vvork factions and styrrs in the churches vvorse then ever before 3. The troubles vvhich they speak of in the English church at Frankford in Q. Maryes dayes is even a picture of our present calamities and vvorthy of perpetual remembrance For there vvhen M. Horn the pastor vvith his felovv Elders vsurped authority above the church they vvere vvel vvithstood by the body of the congregation among vvhom vvere sundry men of vvisdom and learning And to appease that strife by the Magistrates counsel they agreed upon articles vvhich directly overthrovv the errors so stood for by these our opposers For thus the printed Discourse of the troubles of that church sayth The Discipline
reformed and confirmed by the authoritie of the church and magistrate Art 38. The ministers and seniors severally and jointly shal have no authority to make any maner of decrees or ordinances to bind the congregation or any member therof but shal execute such ordinances and decrees as shal be made by the congregation and to them delivered 44. The ministers and seniors elect have authoritie as the principal members of the congregation to govern the sayd congregation according to Gods word and the discipline of the church and also to cal togither and assemble the sayd congregation for causes and at times as shal to them seem expedient Provided alwayes that if any dissention shal happen between the ministers and seniors or the more part of them and the body of the congregation or the more part of it and that the sayd ministers and seniors in such controversie being desired therto wil not assemble the congregation that then the congregation may of it self come togither and consult and determine as concerning the sayd controversie or controversies and the sayd assembly to be a lawful congregation and that which they or the more part of them so assembling shal judge or decree the same to be a lawful decree and ordinance of sufficient force to bind the whole congregation and every member of the same 46. Item in case some doo depart out of the sayd congregation that yet not withstanding those which stil remayn if they be the greater part to be a lawful congregation and that which they or the more part of them shal decree to be a lawful decree of force to bind the whole body ministers seniors deacons and every other member or members therof without exception 53. If any of the congregation be offensive c. to any of the brethren so that the offense be private he is first brotherly to admonish him alone If that doo not prevayl to cal one or 2. witnesses If that also doo not prevayl then to declare it to the ministers and Elders to whome the Congregation hath given authoritie to take order in such cases according to the discipline of the Church 54. Ther be 3. degrees of ecclesiastical discipline first that the offender acknowlege his fault and shew himself penitent before the ministers and seniors The 2. that if he wil not so doo as wel his original crime as also his contempt of the ministers c. be openly declared by one of the ministers before the whole congregation c. The 3. that if he remayn stil obstinate before the whole congregation after a time to him by the whole congregation limitted to repent in he then shal be openly denounced excommunicate which excommunicatiō seing it is the uttermost penaltie of ecclesiastical power shal not therfore be executed until the matter be heard by the whole Church or such as it shal specially appoint ther unto 62. If al the ministers and seniors which have authority to hear and determine c. be suspected or found parties or if any appeal be made from them that then such appeal be made to the body of the congregation the ministers seniors and parties excepted and that the body of the congregation may appoint so many of the congregation to hear determine the sayd matter or matters as it shal seem good to the Congregation 65. That the Ministers and Seniors and every of them be subiect to ecclesiastical discipline and correction as other private members of the Church be 67. If any controversie be upon the doubtful meaning of any word or words in the discipline that first it be referred to the ministers seniors And if they cannot agree therupon then the thing to be brought and referred to the whole congregation These and the like things were agreed of by that church to suppress the exorbitant power which the ministers then chalenged wherby the reader may see 1. what the learned and most conscionable of the church of England held heretofore which if they had continued in would have freed them of al antichristian prelacie the bane of so many churches 2. That this opinion of the churches power above the Elders is not new or first professed by us as some doo reproch us 3. And that these Advertisers which now oppose against us if they had looked upon the examples which themselves alledge might have seen their errours resisted by others against which the Lord hath now caled us also to witness He vouchsafe to be with us in this busynes and guide my hart and hand to defend his truth Of the Letter by M. Iohnson answered and published and by H. Ainsworth now defended Wherin the Articles of difference between both parties are set down and discussed THree things are to be treated of 1. The points wherin they are gone frō their former profession 2. The points wherin they now charge us to differ from our former profession 3. The conditions of peace which they refused For an entrance into this controversie M. Iohnson gives 5. observations First that wee left them upon two particular matters concerning the Churches government and the exposition of Mat. 18 17. doo not directly keep to them as we ought nor answer the things printed I answer this their beginning is ambiguous and fraudulent The churches government is somtime taken largely sometime strictly sometime it is spoken of Christ upon whose shoulders the government is and hereof ther was no controversie Sometime it is spoken of the ministerial ruling and governing the church by Elders neyther of this doe we make any question but hold as heretofore that Christ governeth his church outvvardly by their ministration Sometime men use it generally for the whole outward politie power and as many cal it discipline of the Church and about this in part our cōtroversie was But I wil manifest the frawd We in our published writings distinguish the government and the power acknowledging government to be by the officers but power in the whole body of the Church And for this point of power are 9. reasons set down wherof one is drawn from Christs speech Mat. 18.17 tel the Church Apol. pag. 62.63 Between these two is the matter so conveyed as while we plead for the churches right and power we are sayd to oppugn goverment and when we yeild the Elders to govern they therby would inclose the whole power in their hands as in the furder handling of these things shal appear But if a church have one minister onely he is to teach and govern them by the word of God yet is not any one man a Church neyther hath the power of a Church Yea this distinction is in one particular by themselves acknowledged in the same book it is they say undenyable that to give voices in election is not a part of government or a duty peculiar to the governours of the church but an interest power right and libertie that the saincts and people out of office
have Very wel sayd wherupon we inferr also that to give voices in deciding of controversies and judging of synners is not a part of government but a power and right that the saincts out of office have The Elders are to teach direct and govern the church in election of officers they are to doo the like in judging excommunicating wicked persons and in all other publik affairs Of the exposition of Mat. 18.17 and why their Treatise was not particularly answered I have spoken before the special things therin are in this treatise repeted and so shal be here answered 2. Their second observation I like wel yeild unto that men may change and redress according to Gods word things that are amyss but withal I would have them 1. plainly to acknowledge wherin they erred and what they stablish for truth and 2. to take away by Gods word the reasons wherupon they builded before Which wither these our opposers have doon as they ought I leav it for the discreet reader to judge by their writings compared with those which were published heretofore to the contrary 3. The third for the churches goverment by the officers is that which we alwayes have and stil do yeild to as even now I shewed As for our former practise altered and as he sayth by me acknowledged towching the order and manner of the practise in one particular I grant it but for the power of the Church wherof we treat I deny it There never was such a practise in my dayes as wherby the Elders should be esteemed the Church and to have the povver of the same 4. The 4. observation is that our exceptions are such as the Anabaptists would object in much like manner Yet dooth he not shew this so to be and I know for their successive Ministerie they are neerer the Anabaptists than wee both for it and other points they build upon the very grounds of poperie as after shal be manifested But what doe vve except is it not from our former Articles and Apologie confirmed by scriptures from vvhich these are departed in penning also vvherof these that thus vvrite had a principal hand So they doo hereby not onely joyn vvith our cōmon adversaries vvho intvvite us vvith Anabaptistrie but impute weaknes to their ovvn former vvritings and cause vvherin more strength of truth hath appeared then ever they shal be able to pul dovvn hovvsoever they may assayl it The 5. observation is a mist cast before the readers eyes a collection of 7. things vvherin they vvould make men beleev vve are gone from that vve held heretofore The errour vvherof I vvil shevv hereafter vvhen as order requireth I have examined the ansvvers that they make for themselves to these our Articles vvhich novv next folovv The first point of difference in the Letter 1. Wheras we had learned and professed that Christ hath given the power to receiv in or to cut off any member to the whole body togither of every Congregation and not to any one or moe members sequestred from the whole now wee have been lately taught that the Church which Christ sendeth to for the redress of synns Mat. 18.17 is not to be understood of the whole body of the Congregation but of the Church of Elders And it being granted of al that with the Church is the power the Elders being the Church have the power and so not the whol body of the congregation togither And in the copie vvhich Lavvne printed The 24. Article of the Confession of our faith confirmed in our Apologie pag. 60.62.63 professeth that the povver to receiv in or to cut off any member is given to the whole body togither of every Christian Congregation Mat. 18.17 c. These have pleaded for the Eldership to be the Church Mat. 18. and to have both rightful power and able power to excommunicate though without against the consent of the body of the Congregation The scriptures to confirm our former doctrine and practise are in our Confession Psal. 122.3 Act. 2.47 Rom. 16.2 Mat. 18.17 1. Cor. 5.4 2. Cor. 2.6.7.8 Levit. 20.4.5 24. 14. Num. 5 2.3 Deut. 13.9 The reasons in our Apologie are nine the first referring to proofs of former positions the other 8 confirmed by sundry arguments doctrines practises gathered from the Prophetical and Apostolical scriptures For ansvver hereunto their Advertisement telleth vs many things First of their Treatise published on Mat. 18.17 touching vvhich I also have spoken before Neyther is this point of the Churches power therin plainly handled but closely caried neyther is ther any thing at al sayd to take avvay the other 8. reasons in our Apologie Let the reader compare the writings and judge There be also things formerly written both by others and by them selves touching this of Mat. 18. and things lately published against M. Bernard about it to these they give no answer at al yet cal they upon us to write more 2. Secondly they carp at this phrase the Church of Elders and would have it the Congregation or Assemble of Elders saying that so men might sooner perceiv the vanitie of our error And that I my self elswhere shew the word is sometime used for an Assemblie of Elders I answer 1. If they wil rase the word Church out of the Bible as unfit they may doo so in Mat. 18. and in this controversie or els they must give us leav to keep wonted known words which help men to discern the truth of matters 2. Neyther shew they any one scripture for the phrase they would have the Congregation of Elders neyther did I ever shew or could see the word Church so to mean in al the new Testament but in the old which now is changed I have observed it in some few places 3. But be it Church or Congregation I wil not much contend yet I know their eyes wil dazel that look hereby to discern in our doctrine eyther vanity or error Albeit I confess these our opposites have the Papists on their side for so Card Bellarmine expoundeth this Tel the Church that is the Prelate or the Congregation of Prelates Stapleton interpreteth the Church Mat. 18. to be the Ministers 3. Thirdly they observe that the scriptures of the old testament are quoted for our 24. Article as directly carying us for this matter to the Church of Jsrael which now we would not be brought unto c. I answer the first is true for the scriptures cited doo shew that the people were interessed in those publike actions with their magistrates and therfore there is no reason that now there ministers should claym the whole power to themselves The latter is untrue for we did consider and decide the matter between us by the scriptures of the old Testament compared with the new and so are stil ready to doo But alwayes with observing the differences between the state of the church then now which are many as the Apostles
excoÌ„munication Fourthly if some would thus cavil against Moses lavv which requireth the hands of al the people to stone a wicked man and ask whether women also and children must be present cast stones he might have as good colour for his question as have these if not better For these say in Jsrael such as would not hearken to the Preists judges were to dye by the hands of the people and the proportion that they cast for the people now is that they shal put the sentence in execution by avoiding the excoÌ„municated persons Now I think they wil have women yea and children also to avoyd excoÌ„municated persons so then by proportion women children in Israel must cast stones at malefactors Yea this may be further urged against them by reason of a pregnant note which they give in their Treatise on Mat. 18 that that is such a church as where women may speak are to be heard in their cases and pleas as wel as men but it is not permitted to women to speak in the Churches of the saincts c. wher eyther they aequivocate with this word speak using it in divers senses a coÌ„mon practise of such as would deceiv or they must permitt women to have voices and suffrages as wel as men in al their churches of Elders and so by their proportion women were to cast stones in Israel For if women are to do execution now why not then also 5. Now wheras they intimate to the reader as if we vvould have al men examine rebuke admonish in the presence of the Elders they doo but labour the disgrace of the holy order in the church wher the Minister as the mouth of the congregation propoundeth examineth and carieth matters and then the people if there be defect or default may speak in due order but if in matter or manner they transgress they are to bear their rebuke Al things in the publick judgments of the church being caried holily peaceably and by the government of the Elders even as in elections of officers in prophesie or any other thing wherin men have libertie for to speak And when the Ministers cary things well we commonly find it as in Act. 15.12 that al the multitude keepeth silence otherwise strife and sometime disorder dooth often arise by the evil dealing of the Elders 6. It is also to be observed how these our opposites wil require by their proportion from Israel children to stone their parents wives their husbands and servants their maysters by avoiding their coÌ„munion yet wil they not have theÌ„ to be of that church which is to hear examine judge of the causes why their parents c. should be stoned and excoÌ„municated not bound to be present at the trial of their case Did ever any coÌ„mon wealth in the world require such execution at the hands of wives children and servants and yet teach them so little to honour and regard their parents as not to think themselves bound to hear their case tried but upon the Elders report to stone their own fathers husbands maisters which doo take it on their death that they are innocent Against 1. Cor. 12.21 26. which was by some alleged they except 1. that the Apostles purpose is not to speak of cases and pleas about syn and of the manner of dealing therin but of the diversity of gifts and functions given for the help and service of all to the building up of the body of Christ. I answer 1. the Apostle speaketh generally of the diversities of gifts Ministeries and operations in the church as they are given to to every man to profit with all and nameth in particular the gifts operations and ministeries and among the rest the governours or governments and ther is no church action which the Apostle purposeth not in that his dispute to comprehend their first exception therfore is not true 2. Neyther dooth it agree with it self for if he speak as they confess of the diversity of gifts and functions given for the help and service of all to the building up of the body of Christ then can he not but speak of cases and pleas about syn seing they are to be judged by the gifts and functions of the church they are for the help and service of all they help to build up the body of Christ. Vnless they would have us think that the Elders prelacie which they strive for is none of those gifts or functions nor for the help and service of all nor for the building up of Christs body but of Antichrists this we wil grant them to be true 2. Secondly they except the Apostle sheweth it by the similitude of the natural body and faculties and applieth it to the feeblest members even the yongest children newly baptised vers 13 â—22 to whom he appointeth not the cases of syn to be brought to judgment and censure as we hereupon would inferr I answer in thus speaking they injurie us and the truth it self Would we inferr that the judgmeÌ„t of syn should be brought to infants newly baptised because we say not the Elders onely but the church is to judge as Paul teacheth And would th'Apostle also inferr think they that infants should rebuke and judge unbeleevers because he sayth when the whole church is come togither in one if al prophesie and ther come in one that beleeveth not he is rebuked of al is judged of al. And did Iosua also mean that the yongest children newly circumcised threw stones at Achan because he sayth al Jsrael stoned him we had not thought wise men would ever have made such inferences And what vveight is in their reasoning from infants that if other besides Elders may judge synners then infants if not infantes then no other but Elders Might not men thus elude al Pauls arguments As when he sayth the manifestation of the spirit is given to every one to profit withal they to conclude therfore the yongest children newly baptised can manifest the spirit to the profit of others We have bene all made to drink into one spirit therfore infants also were partakers of the Lords supper Jf one member be had in honour all the members reioyce with it therfore even the sucking babes for they also are members But did not these men think to find babes of us that they have given such an answer to our allegations 3. Thirdly they except that this similitude might likewise be applied to Jsrael which we grant Also we acknowledge that it may not eyther then or now pervert Gods ordinance about the Elders hearing c. They say the governours are set in the Church for that use I answer not the governours onely this is that which they should prove They are to govern the Church in al actions but not to doo them alone Also they say al members have not fit gifts for examining of persons deciding of questions c.
Secondly in that place of their Treatise on Mat. 18. they quote Mat. 2◠20 as alleged for a ground yet they give not any answer to that scripture but stil call upon us to answer their questions write more Wheras Christ there encōmendeth to his disciples of all nations to the worlds end the observing of all things whatsoever he cōmanded th'Apostles And excommunication was one of those things commanded Mat. 18. 1. Cor. 5. Therfore to be observed by a Christian people though they want officers unless these men can shew some prohibition Christ requireth to observ al things these men say nay not excommunication it lyeth now on them to shew wher Christ or his Apostles have excepted excommunication But from that place and by the very same reasons doo the Anabaptists deny baptisme of Children caling for scripture example precept ground to warrant it as these doo now in this case 3. Thirdly besides al things heretofore written they have a ground in the article it self which they neyther doo nor can take away which is the power that the church alwayes hath to receiv in members and therfore consequently to cast them out agayn if they deserv it Which ground if they deny they in effect deny that ther can be any church without Elders contrary to the express scripture Act. 14.23 1. Cor. 12.28 Tit. 1.5 Yea or that ther can be any visible Christians without Elders for how can they be Christians without union with Christ And if men cannot be united with his members and body because ther wanteth Elders how should they be united with him the head 4. They have it proved a point of false doctrine by Mr Iohnson himsef to teach that the Church of Christ hath not alwayes power to receive in and to cast out by the keyes of the kingdom Answer to M. Iakob pag. 159.160 2. They secondly allege sundry examples grounds that it hath been doon by the Lord himself and by his officers c. This we never doubted of but a Church having officers may excōmunicate Though yet the proof for the Elders wil be excepted against by the Prelates and such like For th'examples of Abraham of Paul of Titus of Timothee and of the Preist judging a leper make rather in show for one Bishop then for a Church of Elders and so are alleged by Papists for the Prelacie The other scriptures doo none of them shew the Elders power to excōmunicate but to watch take heed reprove admonish c al which the Prelates grant to their inferiour Preists whom yet they wil not suffer to excommunicate with out the Bishop or his Official as these wil not the Church without an Eldership The examples of excommunicating by the Rulers of Israel I wil turn against them thus If the Magistrates and people of Israel might not onely punish civilly with death but also execute a spiritual censure of excommunication upon the consciences of evil doers though they had wanted ministers of the Temple and synagogues then a Christian magistrate and people may doo so now though they want ministers ecclesiastical And if the Church may excommunicate having a magistrate it may also do it wanting one seing the power of spiritual censure dependeth not upon the civil magistracie as the state of the Churches in the Apostles dayes sheweth 3 Thirdly they wil have us to consider how a people can chalenge the ministration of excommunication more then of the sacraments c. This we have considered and find that if the reason be good the ruling Elders may not excommunicate any more then minister the sacraments which whither they hold or no let them tel us in their next For they know wel the Prelates object these things against the ruling Elders as themselves doo now against the people 4. Fourthly they say they cannot find in scripture but when the church is caled the body of Christ or compared to a body howse city or kingdom it is spoken eyther of particular Churches having officers or of the catholik church in respect of Christ the head c. I answer it appeareth then plainly they have lost that which they had found and let them take heed least for not keeping it God deprive them of finding it any more But I wil help them if it may be by their own writing where this same author sayth A company of faithful people though considered a part by themselves they be privat men yet being gathered togither in the name of Christ and joyned togither in fellowship of his gospel they are a publick body a church a citie a kingdom and that of Jesus Christ who is present among them to guide bless and confirm what they doo on earth in his name and by his power So that like as in a city the citizens considered a part are commonly privat members yet jointly togither are the corporation and publick body of that town so is it also in the church of Christ whither it consist of moe or of fewer yea though they be but 2. or 3. so as they be joyned togither in the communion of the gospel and gathered togither in the name of Jesus Christ as before is sayd These things they have acknowledged though now it seemeth they have forgot them or which is worse doo dissemble them Vnto these I wil add th'Apostles testimonie concerning a howse Christ is the chief corner stone and Christians that come unto him as lively stones are made a spiritual howse an holy Preisthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices Men come unto Christ by beleef and are joyned unto him and one to another by mutual covenant The ministers of Christ are as builders of this howse by preaching the gospel laying first the foundation Christ then upon him Christian people Gods building But if as often cometh to pass the builders doo refuse yet the Lord without them putteth Christ for head of the corner and causeth the faithful to come unto him and maketh them his spiritual howse to dwel in them whose howse they continew to be not by having officers alway among them but by holding fast their confidence and rejoycing of hope unto the end Wherfore these men that can find no howse of God without Elders must prove that men can not come unto no◠continew in Christ unless it be by ecclesiastical officers which they shal never be able to manifest or al may see how they are beguiled with errour that they can not find things so apparant and heretofore acknowledged by themselves Ther opinion is injurious not onely to Christians but to Christ himself whiles they wil not grant him being the corner stone the head the king and the faithful the living stones his mēbers and subjects to make a howse body or kingdom if the Elders want or refuse though he as is written walketh among his Churches and is with them al dayes to the worlds end 5. Fiftly they
say our controversie was about a Church established with officers things concerning people without officers are left to further consideration I answer true it is they sought alwayes to hide their errors and to put off things which pressed them to further consideration and the Elders having gott the Churches power into their hands they lysted not to scan the peoples right But we were necessarily drawn to controvert this point two wayes first because their errour did eat out the very constitution of the Church wherof they vvere as shal after be manifested Secondly because it vvas by themselves acknovvledged that vvhatsoever povver the people hav before is not to be takē away by their officers this therfore vvas an argument that manifested the evil vvhich lurketh in their nevv doctrine And vvho can soundly discuss any question if they look not to the foundation as Christ sayd to the Pharisees from the beginning it was not so 6. Finally vvheras vve shevved hovv their doctrine overthroweth the constitution of their Church as being vvithout povver from Christ they say First it were worth the knowing by whom the first man or two men of this church were received in and by what power I ansvver it is true they say and pray them therfore to shevv by vvhat povver their church began if they vvould have men acknovvledge it for true and planted by the povver of Christ Othervveise they must renounce their estate and begin a nevv As for ours it is shevved in our published vvritings vvhich if they can let them disprove as in Treat of the ministerie against M. Hildersh p. 73.74 Apologie p. 44.45.46.47 2. Secondly they say by our baptisme as also by accord in the truth we ar bound to communion in any thing lawful as God giveth occasion and opportunity I answer 1. they here turn from the question we speak of constitution of a particular church they tel us of communion by baptism and accord in the truth which extendeth to al churches in the world and to Saincts that ar not gathered and constituted into any particular church We speak of a church with power to receiv in and cast out though it have no officers they touch not this point unless they closely grant us the question to the overthrow of their opinion For if they yeild such power and practise to be a lawful thing in the communion of al such as ar baptised or doo accord in the truth they refute themselves if not al men may see how they seek to divert from the matter in hand 2. Secondly by their baptism they mean not onely the true baptisme in Christs church but the false baptisme in Antichrists as the article expresseth and after we ar to scan which if it be according to the scriptures which they cite the one baptisme that by one spirit baptiseth al into one body then are they returned into the cōmmunion and body of Antichrists synagogue if the church of Rome be it are bound to communicate even with Friers and Iesuites in any thing lawful as God giveth occasion and that is I suppose to hear them when they preach nothing but the truth or to pray with them when they in spirit pray to God in Christ c. I would be loth to wrong them their own words lead me to this if I gather amyss let them pardon me shew their meaning plainly for he that dooth truth cōmeth to the light 3. Thirdly without baptisme there may be a Church entred into covenant with God one with an other as all Israel passed into the covenant renued by Moses when al the men under 40. yeres old were uncirsed besides al the women 3. They thirdly say it is playn and undenyable that to chuse or give voices in election is not a part of goverment c. but an interest power right and libertie that the Saincts out of office have and should use c. I answer 1. First this is playn and undenyable so long as it pleaseth them not to deny it but if they change their mind in this point to morow as they have doon in the former about the peoples power to excōmunicate then we shal hear as we did before wher find we in the scriptures that God hath thus layd on the people without officers to make electiō where is the precept for it which be the examples of it c. They tel us it is playn but not one scripture is brought to shew it yet is it needful seing they know the Papists and other Prelates deny such elections without officers The Prelates wil shew them sundry examples wher it was doon by the counsel direction and government of officers as Act. 1.15.21 22. 6.2 3. 14 23 1. Tim. 3 1. 14.15 Tit. 1.5 but not one place where a people without officers attempted such a work Wherefore wee wish our opposites not to deal so slenderly as to tel men it is playn and undeniable so to leav it for we make no doubt but the sound proof of this point wil disproov their former errour 2. Secondly we have upon their bare word that to give voices in election of officers is no part of government we pray them in their next to shew whether then to give voices for deposition of unworthy officers be a part of government as also how they prove that to give voices for the reciving in and putting out of members in the Church is a part of government more than the other 3. Thirdly the reader may observ their covert cariage of this point whiles they speak but of giving voices in election but what say they about giving power of administration to the ministers who must doo that or how had these men that but by the people And if the people have power in the name of Christ to say to the elected Pastor Take thou authority to preach the word c. or in any other terms to give him pastoral office which had none before I hope they wil not deny but if that Pastor afterward proov a Wolf the same people may put him out of al his pastoral office and if they have that power why also may they not put him quite out of the fold and Church by the power of Christ that is excommunicate him And if it be not lawful for a people to give authority of Ministerie unto a man how then do these administer which renounced some of them their former office and preisthood given by the Prelates and as private men received a nue caling and ordination others from private estate were constituted Elders by the people Is this Ministerie now from heaven or from men 4. Lastly they say seing their doctrine overthroweth not the constitution of the Church of Jsrael nor of the primitive Churches it cannot therfore overthrow the constitution of their church or of any that is accordingly built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets c. I answer this in
church Otherweise if he be but an Idol and not God his Temple church and body wil prove but an Idol like himself and his blasphemie is worse then theirs which sayd they were Jewes and were not but did lye and were the synagogue of Satan Secondly they take it for granted that by the Temple is meant the church and so goe on in obscuritie Wheras the Temple did primarily figure out Christ Joh. 2.19.21 and in the heavenly Ierusalem the true church ther was no other temple seen but the Lord God almightie and the Lamb Christ which are the Temple of it Rev. 21.22 If in this sense we understand that speech of Paul touching Antichrist then must we translate the words as some ancient Doctors have doon eis ton Naon for the Temple or as if he himself were the Temple and so in deed Antichrist taketh upon him the person and office of Christ under pretence of his Vicarship shewing himself that he is God proclayming himself to be the brydegroom of the Church which is the office of Christ yea taking a title above him for wheras Christ is caled Pontifex magnus the Great high Preist the Pope is usually intituled Pontifex maximus the Greatest high-preist and reason ther is for it because in the Pope ther is power above all powers as well of heaven as of earth as in a publick Council it was spoken of this Beast Now that these things should be true of the man of syn otherwise then by lyes spoken in hypocrisie none of grace I know wil affirm Secondarily the Temple figured the Church but first the catholik or universal church Eph. 2 21. then every particular church by proportion 1 Cor. 3 16 17. Which of these two our opposites doo intend they shew not If they mean a particular church it wil not agree with the prophesies of Antichrist whose Citie or church is so great as peoples kinreds tongues nations doo dwel in the streets therof Neyther is that answerable to the Temple in Israel which was not for one synagogue but for the whole natiō of the Iewes and for the Gentiles that came to the faith through the world If they mean the catholik or vniversal church vvhich indeed Antichrist claymeth for his Temple then we are to be taught of them how that whoorish company that worship the Beast and Dragon can possibly be the true catholik church and spowse of Christ otherweise then by counterfeysance and lying ostentation even as the Divil himself is an Angel of light And the very word Temple leadeth vs to vnderstand Antichrists church to be but a counterfeyt For what was the Temple or Tabernacle in Israel Not the Church or congregation of Gods people properly for they were the worshipers of God in the Tēple but it was a sacramental sign of Gods dwelling with his people as it is written they shal make me a sanctuarie that J may dwell among them So Solomon built the Temple that God might dwel therin and for the times under the gospel God promised J wil set my sanctuary among them for ever my Tabernacle shal be with them J wil be their God they shal be my people and the fulfilling herof is set down Rev. 21 3. behold the tabernacle of God is with men and he wil dwel with them and they shal be his people So in Revelat. 11.1 the Tēple is distinguished frō thē that worship therein which is the people The Temple then was an outward sign of Gods presence with his people and of his inward dwelling in their harts by faith and by his Spirit unto their salvation so Antichrists Temple is an outward shew of his presence with that seduced people in whose harts he dwelleth by Popish faith and by his Spirit of error carying them to damnation But as Antichrist shal not professedly deny the true God or Christ though in deed and truth he falsly sheweth himself that he is God so shal he not professedly deny the Temple or church of God but falsly vaunt his adulterous synagogue to be the same Gods true temple and tabernacle is in mount Sion in heaven wher God sitteth on a throne and dwelleth among his people wher is the ark of his covenant and from thence lightnings voices thundrings earthquake and hayl come forth against the Antichristians his enemies and vials of his wrath powred out upon the throne of the beast and on the men that have his mark On the contrary the Beast which is the kingdom of Antichrist ascendeth from beneath out of the bottomless pit and blasphemeth this heavenly tabernacle and sitteth in Babylon upon the Dragons throne and fighteth against the Lamb and against the Saincts treading under foot the holy Citie and casting down the place of Christs sanctuarie When th'Apostle therfore telleth us that Antichrist sitteth as God in the Temple of God it is to be understood first of their invading and destroying of Gods church and people as the hethens of old dealt with Ierusalē dwellers therin secōdly of their own vayn ostentatiō whiles they will have it caled the Christian catholik church and the Pope the head of the same The next point that Antichrist is to be sought there and not among the Jewes Turks Pagans is a fallacie from an insufficient division for al out of the true Church are not Jewes or Turks or Pagans ther is a fourth to make up the mease even popish Antichristians and among these is the Man of syn to be found though with a visar on his face and a sheepskin on his back In the true Church he hath somtimes been found raunging as a wolf but not reigning as a God which in his own Temple he dooth wher he is acknowledged Our Lord God the Pope and h Thou art an other God on earth and To beleev that our Lord God the Pope might not decree as he hath decreed it were a matter of heresie and O thou that takest away the synns of the world have mercy upon us with other like intollerable blasphemies Thirdly they say Antichrist takes not away wholly the church of God and every truth and ordinance of the Lord. I answer neyther did the Divil take away wholly every truth and ordinance of God from among the hethens but they reteyned many rites of Gods worship received from their fathers as before is noted Yet in very deed so much as in them lay and us stood with the safetie of their deceitful kingdom the Divil of old and Antichrist his son of late have sought wholly to take away the church truth of God and to put lyes in the place But God hath nourished the woman his church in the wildernes from the presence of the Serpent Rev. 12.14 And for further answer hereof let us hear what M. Iohnson
filthy potion that is in it frō the Beasts counterfeyt Lambs horns as wel as from his Lions mouth and Bears pawes We may not in the truest Church in the world partake with their synns yet is not every true Church that synneth Babylon Secondly she being in this forlorn estate she is but a lump of syn a man of syn a child of perdition the Beast is not one person but the whole kingdom M. Iohnson himself hath acknowledged more then once that the man of syn is the false Church religion of Antichrist compared to the body of a man and consisting of all the parts togither Now to the defiled and unbeleeving nothing is pure their sacrifices are abominable their prayers are turned to syn We acknowledg therfore no good or holy thing in Antichrists synagogue as touching her use of it Thirdly we renounce not any good thing because that harlot dooth chalenge abuse it but we practise Gods ordinances as he hath cōmanded condemning utterly the profanation of them by Antichrist 7. They further allege that the Church of Rome was at the first set in the way of God since which time she is fallen into great apostasie as Jsrael did in which estate she hath kept sundry truthes and ordinances of God as Israel also did Which causeth a twofold consideration of her estate 1. in respect of the ordinances of God still reteyned among them 2. and of the mixture of their own abominations Jn regard of the one to acknowledge the truth and church of God there in regard of the other to observ their apostasie and confusion against Antichrist and for this mixture to separate from them and to practise every ordinance of God which was and is in that church leaving onely their corruptions least we fal into Anabaptistrie and other evils I answer they doo but roll the first stone saying the same things comparing Antichrists church with Israel wheras the holy Ghost compareth it with the gentiles even the most vile the Sodomites Aegyptians Babylonians and hethen Romans as before I have shewed In all which nations there were many truthes ordināces of God reteyned abused which truthes made them no true Church unless we wil say al the world was Gods true Church But I wil folow their particulars The Church of Rome they say was at first set in the way of God I answer ther was at Rome such a Church in Pauls time but the Romish Church now is a Beast since that time sprung out of the bottomless pit a Catholik monster dispersed as they feign through earth heaven and purgatorie as before I shewed such a Church Paul never saw but by the spirit of prophesie foretold of it That Church then was Saints worshiped God this Church now is an habitation of Divils and worshipeth Divils Since that time say they she is fallen into Apostasie True say I even soon after Pauls time for then the mysterie of iniquitie did work and many Antichrists were gone out whiles the Apostles lived For which their Apostasie like Israels when they would not repent as Christ threatned some that were new fallen into such synns the candlestick the Church was removed the Church of Rome as Paul forewarned for unbeleef was cut off among others and for a punishment of their Apostasie God delivered the East Churches into the hands of Mahomet and the West Churches into the hands of that false-horned beast Antichrist even as Israel and Iudah of old for their like synns were delivered into the hands of the Assyrians and Babylonians And this Paul prophesied that ther should be a departing frō the faith before that Man of syn should be disclosed and because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved therfore God would send upon them that Adversarie with Satans power and strong delusion to beleev lyes that they might be damned Thus Mahomet Antichrist were Gods 2 plagues to bring not onely the death of body but of sowl upō thē that loved not the truth but departed frō it For when the great mountayne which is the kingdom of Babylon Antichrists monarchie burning with the fyre of ambition and strife was cast into the sea that is among peoples and nations then the living creatures that were in the third part of the sea so corrupted and bloody dyed lived not agayn for a thowsand yeres as did the godly which worshiped not the beast Although therfore we may truely call the state of Mahometisme and Antichristianisme apostasie yet we are taught of God to understand such apostasie as was among the hethens in Sodom Aegypt and Babylon and so Rome is caled not onely figuratively as somtimes the Iewes are caled people of Gomorrah but spiritually that is in deed and effectually for the spirit and life so to speak of all their abominations are in her most powrful and apparant So their comparison with Israel falleth too short in mesure though Israel also when they forsook God and his Church and builded new Temples were not Gods true Temple or Church as before is proved Their cōsideratiō in respect of Gods ordinances to acknowledge the church of God there is a speculatiō of their own not of God For the stealing abusing Gods ordināces mixing thē with their own inventiōs maketh not a people Gods people or Ch any more thē a true mās mony in a theefs purse maketh the theef an honest mā If it were so then the hethens when they sacrificed swine were to be condemned but when they sacrificed bullocks and sheep were to be approved as Gods Church for they kept Gods ordinance asvvel as Rome with their sacrifice of the Mass. When they worshiped idols they were to be condemned but when they worshiped the true God in their ignorant manner they were to be justified as his people so when they kept the feasts of new moons they were to be praised as Gods Church for it was an ordinance of his but when they kept their Bacchanalia to be disclaimed for heretiks And what wil this come unto at the last but to justify the Divil as he is a creature of God and transformed into an Angel of light but to condemn him as he is a black Divil and Apostate from his original Their fear least they should fall into Anabaptistrie is before defrayed but as some mariners to avoid Charybdis have falln into Scylla so these to shun the shelves of Anabaptistrie have run their ship upon the rocks of Poperie 8. Their next double consideration is about the covenant of God made with his people For oftē the people on their part break the covenāt when the Lord doth not so on his part but stil counts them his people calls thē to repentāce folowes them somtime with judgm t somtime
as shal be saved Rev. 18 4. Their starr or Bishop is long since fallen from heaven and in sted of Peters keyes he received the key of the bottomless pit which he opened and brought up a smoke of heresies and darkned all truth and means therof and sent abroad his clergie the Locusts to sting and poyson mens souls by calling them from God to worship Divils And these things Mr Iunius himself hath applied to the popish hierarchie Touching the papacie say they or papal hierarchie caled ecclesiastical we say not that it is the church properly so caled but an accident growing to the church and which covertly worketh against the life and health of the church For the papacie is an order humane and naught the church is an assembly divine c. And after they say The papacie is in the church as the order of apostasie in the howse of God 2 Thes. 2. the man of syn sitteth in the temple of God with his whole order or rank of Apostates and the Temple of God consisteth not in that order and number of Apostates which is a thing most strange and furthest off And again the papacie is a poyson in the Church which must needs be vomitted out if it wil be preserved or ells the Church wil be extinguished by it if it suffer that poyson to prevayl and possess all the veyns of the body I answer true it is and I agree with them that the rank of Apostates is farr from being Gods temple wherupon I assume the whole popish church preists and people are a rank of Apostats because they worship the Beast who sheweth himself there for God where the Pope is acknowledged to be the Lion of the tribe of Iudah the root of David the Saviour and deliverer they worship Divils and Idols of silver and gold Rev. 9.20 and their beleef is in lyes 2 Thes. 2.11 12. therfore the whole popish Church being a ranck of Apostates is a Temple of Antichrist but not of Christ. Secondly to take that which they grant the papal Hierarchie ecclesiastical if it be no part of the body of the Church but an accident a poyson a gangrene an vlcer eating the body what shal we think of al the actions of that ecclesiastical hierarchie their ministration of sacraments their making of ministers and the whole Church administration by that rank of Apostates they cannot possibly be the actions of the body of the Church neyther of Christ. Can a scab or gangrene perform any action of a natural body or member And now what is become of their true baptisme and ordination of Ministers before pleaded for these wil be but as the operation of the poison or fretting of the gangrene for they that did them being the popish ecclesiastical hierarchie were no parts of the Church but accidents as the gangrene or pocks upon the whores body which consume life and grace but give none at al. Thirdly seing the popish ecclesiastical hierarchie which consisteth of Bishops Preists Ministers are the poison and botches in the body of the Church and no parts of the same how dooth God cal in that Church as before they reasoned For his ministerie is not among them as for his word the people have it not so much as to read and the service of their Gods is in a tongue that they understand not what now is the meanes of their caling Fourthly compare this with their former plea for the Eldership and Ministerie wheÌ„ they could not find the Church to be caled the body of Christ howse city or Kingdom unless it had officers c. Now for Rome they wil have it the body of Christ howse Temple of God ministring true baptisme c. and yet the ecclesiastical hierarchie are no parts or members but scabs on the body But the truth is these Aegyptian boyles the hierarchie ar the chiefest parts of the body of that Antichrist which in some respect may be likened to the Image that Nebuchadnezar saw Dan. 2.31 c. The Pope with his triple crown who is proclaymed for a Vice-God the inuincible Monarch of the Christian common wealth and vehement conserver of the popish omnipotencie he is the â—ead of Gold The Cardinals and prelats are next him as breast arms of silver the other bellyâ—God Clergie is the strong brazen paunch and the Lay people are as the legs and feet of yron and clay which cary and bear up the bulk and the unclean Spirit of Satan giveth life and effectual operation to this Beast For to be a member of this their body and Church the papists themselves profess that ther is not any inward vertue required so then ther is no need of the spirit of God to joyn these limms of the Beast togither But they proceed and say that On Gods behalf it is altogither a Church whersoever ther is found a company caled of God with his caling by the spirit and the holy scripture and the ministery of persons ordeyned for holy things and divine actions And a little after After this maner doo we esteem of the Church in which the papacy is God caleth her with his caling by his spirit and word and publik record of that holy mariage the scripture the ministerie and things holy actions which before we have breifly reckned up I answer if mens eyes did not dazel with looking on the bewtie of the harlot I marvel how they could so esteem of that Church which hath for her hierarchie as even now they confessed a rank of Apostates no members but ulcers of the body And are they now with another breath become an holy ministerie of God Most strange it is that men should publish their own esteemings without any word of God to warrant them But let us bring them to the trial They say God caleth her by his spirit and word but Paul sayth God shal send them strong delusion that they should beleev lyes 2 Thes. 2.11 and this we see verifyed by the manifold heresies idolatries blasphemies wherewith the whole body of that Church is poysoned They say God caleth her with his spirit the Apostle sayth strong is the Lord God which will condemn her Rev. 18 8. and with the spirit of his mouth he wil consume that lawless one 2. Thes. 2 8. And wheras they cal the scripture the publik record of that holy mariage between God her the scripture shewes no such mariage but dooth defye her as an harlot where is the record that Christ was ever maried to the Beast that came up from the bottomless pit If her having the book of holy scripture in an unknown tongue wickedly abused to mainteyn her whordoms and abominations subjected to the interpretation of her Lord God the Pope be a record of that holy mariage the Iewes which have Moses and the Prophets red and expounded in their mother tongue have
wicked spirit c. The Pope maketh his boast that he is the High Preist he is of equal power with Peter he cannot err he is head and spouse of the Church c. Mahomet braggeth also that he is that great Prophet the promised Messias the Apostle of both testaments c. He is wel contented that Christ be an holy Prophet and a most worthy creature yea the word of God the sowl of God and the spirit of God conceived of the Holy Ghost but he wil in no case grant him to be the Son of God nor that he dyed here for mans redemtion Both these two mainteyners of mischief allow Moses law the Psalter the Prophets and the Gospel yea they commend them advance them sing them read them honour them c. yet wil they have their own filthy lawes preferred above them the Pope his execrable decrees and Mahomet his wicked Alkoran ells wil they murther men without measure Thus though they outwardly appear very vertuous yet are they the malignant Ministers of Satan denying the Lord which hath redeemed them By these may wee mesure their inferiour Merchants having their livery mark I might allege many moe especially of the Martyrs in England which dyed in this testimonie against that false whore but it is ynough that Gods word dooth condemn her as before is manifested The 6. point of difference in the letter WE had learned that al particular congregations are by al means convenient to have the counsel and help one of another in al needful affaires of the Church as mēbers of one body in the common faith yet here when differences had arisen about our common faith and could not amongst our selves be cōposed they would not desire nor consent to have desired the help of our sister Church at Leyden although it were instantly urged by many members that their assistance should be had With this they joyn the 9. out of the printed copy to the effect of the former Against this they except 1. that though for some reasons they absteyned from desiring it or sending for them or giving their consent so to doo yet they were content to permitt it which was not a denying of the practise of it as the printed copy objecteth c 1 Cor. 7.6 Deut. 24.1 I answer the scriptures on which we grounded that article being Act. 15. chap. 1. Cor. 14.33.36 shew an other manner of dutie then a permission For when dissention had arisen in the church of Antioch they ordeyned that some should goe up to Ierusalem unto the Apostles Elders about the question And the messengers were sent forth of the Church and were received by the Church at Ierusalem the Apostles and Elders who came togither with one accord after discussing and agreement wrote to the Church of Antioch what had seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to them And Paul sheweth a reason of such mutual entercourse when he sayth Came the word of God out from you eyther came it unto yow onely 1 Cor. 14.36 Wherfore seing the word of God was come unto the Church of Leyden as unto us and considering the practise that was in the APOSTOLIKE Churches heretofore and our profession to walk according it is but a sory answer to say they would permitt of it if others did it as Moses permitted the bill of divorse for the hardnes of mens harts and as Paul spake a thing by permission not by commandement For we think those Apostolical practises Act. 15. to be in sted of commandements unto us Philip. 3.17 And our Confession noteth it as a dutie even by al means convenient By this al may see how weak a defense they make for their proceedings Their reasons folow 1. that the other Church we were in peace togither if by this occasiō the peace should be brokē they should not say they sēt for thē I answer this exceptiō wil lye against al Churches in the world that are at peace and might have been objected by the contentious at Antiochia Act. 15. and wil be colour to cut off al use of that practise and of our former profession 2. That the Church of Leyden was in the same error with us who desired their help I answer this also might the troublers of the Church in Antioch have objected as colourably against the Church of Ierusalem Act. 15. it is a barr to cut of al help from other Churches Yea if any heresie be raysed by the officers in a Church contrary to their former faith they may thus except against al Churches unless they wil fal into the same errors with them 3 Thirdly they allege former experience with others I answer we never had experiēce of the like M. Smyth in deed leaving the truth and broaching his heresie against the translated scripture would needs publish it in our Church It is one thing to raise up a new error as did he an other thing to mainteyn the ancient faith as did the Church of Leyden with us So that which they fourthly allege is but a pretence that al wil make be their errors never so new they that urged circumcision Act. 15. could plead the anciēt practise in Israel farr better then these our opposites can doo for the power of their Eldership 4 Their next exception about a letter written by some to that church a copy wherof was desired but not granted c. is an occasion taken by that accident But they know that before that letter was written they signified their unwillingnes to intreat their help and now were glad that they had gotten a show to hold them off 2. For the Letter mentioned I did think it was meet they should have sent it and so I wish they had though they shewed reasons of their not doing it for the present but have since that time sent thē a copy 5. They next object my own subscribing of those letters to Leyden c ask whether I denyed the practise of that article c. I answer first I had sundry times signified in publick my mind that their help should be desired in the end if we could not agree but we would first use al means among our selves so I never was of their mind who refused absolutely to desire their help this they wel know Secondly I subscribed those Letters because I thought it meet that a copy of the foresayd letter should have been sent as before I signified Thirdly for the last letter which to my remembrance I consented to they know I refused to subscribe it til some words which implied an absolute denyal of requesting their help were put out and changed Fourthly when no means among our selves could end the strife they know how I both intreated them to consent they might be sent for when they would not my self went and obteyned their cōming In deed I was loth to trouble them without urgent cause with my brethren
theÌ„ before himself as in giving his life a ransome for many in being as he that serveth at the table wherat his disciples sate in which respect he expressly teacheth theÌ„ to be greater theÌ„ himself and in washing their feet as they sate at supper so was not his order an ord of service in it self but of headship and kingship which if our Ch â—officers could prove their order to be we would then acknowledge it in deed superiour to the order of saynts But their order being merely an order of servaÌ„ts me thinks coÌ„mon sense should serve to judge the same inferiour to the order of the Church whose servants under Christ they are I ad in my book pag. 225. that the officers being by their order servants the Church may in that relation be called a Lord not for the governing of them in the outward policie and affaires in the church as he injuriously collects but as they are for the Churches use and service which he conceals though I expresly so note in the same place as also that the same Church-servants are Church-governours the gogernment of the Church being a mere service And for the thing If the officers be to be called servants to the Church what is the Church to be called to the officers A servant is a relative and must have a correlative and I would know by what name he would call it if not by the name of Lord Mayster Mistress or the like And if he deny this he takes away from men the use of coÌ„mon reason and understaÌ„ding Let the servants know yea though stewards as are the Church-officers add so betrusted with the goverment in a special maÌ„ner that the wife of their Lord and Mayster is a degree above theÌ„ and so to be acknowledged by them least they not onely wrong her but provoke him to wrath Lastly because he imputes new doctrine to me I wil note down the doctrine of some few others both more ancient and more worthy of respect then my self Musculus in his CoÌ„mentaries vpon 1. Cor. 3 22 23 24. Let no man glorie in men for all are yours c. sayth thus Is it not absurd that the greater to wit the Church should glory in the less to wit the officers the Lord or mayster in the servant And in this sense sayth he further the perversnes of the false Apostles is noted who when they wer servants of the Church did make of a Mistress or dame a servant and of servants Lords And agayn the foolishnes of the Church is taxed who when they were Lords of their Ministers gloried in their servants Bullinger upon the same place vers 21. sayth thus So great is the dignity of them that beleev that God hath subjected all things unto theÌ„ It is therfore great folly if the Lord of thinges subject himself to the things c. Pareus professor of Heidelberg in his CoÌ„mentaries upon the same scripture reproving the churches glorying in Paul Câ—phas c. and quoting 2 Cor. 4.5 we preach not our selves but Christ Iesus the Lord and our selves your servants for Iesus sake sayth thus It is not meet that the Lord should glorie in his servant wee are your servants Therefore c. All these and many moe call the Church expresly a Lord in the very same relation with me and yet I suppose never man chalenged them for making an Idol of it or setting up a Lordly government neyther would Mr. Iohnson me had he not been immoderately jealous for the officers dignity Iohn Robinson The 2 Article objected We professed heretofore that Christ gave the power of receiving in cutting off to the whole body togither of every Christian congregation not to any one or more members sequestred from the whole c. Now we have been taught that in cases of question and controversie the greater part of the people are the Church though al the Elders and other brethren be against them c. and so have the power to receiv in cut off c. I answer ther is no contradiction in these things we hold stil in all points according to the article alleged neyther ever taught we the people onely to be the Church sequestred from their officers but the officers governing and the people governed to be the Church which hath the power to use in holy order But if these officers fal into heresie or wickednes themselves or to abett wickednes in others and wil not be reclaymed by any holy means the Church can use then may they by the Church which chose them be deposed as unworthy of their places yea and excommunicated and so al other impenitent sinners and this by the voices of the most of the congregation if al consent not aswel as members or officers are received in by the voices of the most if some doo dissent for ther is one power for them both And these our opposites must eyther manifest that if one or 2 officers or members doe dissent in a controversie ther is a sequestration of them from the whole and the Church then hath not the power of Christ to receav in and cutt off or els al may see that this is a colourable accusation of theirs no contradiction of ours For if the consent of al every one be not necessaryly to be had they dissenting through their ignorance frowardnes or the like theÌ„ the most voices must prevayl But how farr their new doctrine that the Elders are the Church is both from our former professioÌ„ and from equitie I have before shewed The 3 Article We wrote heretofore that the Elders have the reyns of government coÌ„mitted to them now we are taught that the governmeÌ„t of the church is not Aristocratical yea the people as Kings have the power c. I answer we differ not from our former profession but they deceiv the reader by turning government into power which we in our publik profession heretofore distinguished and so doo still giving the government of the whole Church and all the actions of it unto the officers the power to the whole body and so to the officers with the people as joyntly Kings and Preists of which things we have spoken before We never held the Church to be a mere Aristocratie as they speak intending that the cratos or power should be in the hands of a few neyther shal these men ever prove it And in the book which they cite in the very same place though they dissemble it we shew the Church not the Elders onely to have Christs power to judge al within the same and that the keyes of the Kingdom of Heaven are committed to the whole Church as the Protestants have heretofore testified against the Papists That these men doo but feign contradiction and would blind the reader by confounding the Churches power and goverment as one The 4. article Wee professed hertofore that no sacraments should be
even in the Elders most solemn assemblies and Councils as Gr. Nazianzen in his time complayned being himself an Elder or Bishop I am minded sayth he to shun all assemblies of Bishops because I never saw a good event in any Council that did not rather increase then diminish our evils Their contention ambitioÌ„ passeth my speech Secondly they speak of their offer to bear with us in our difference of judgement if we would be content to walk peaceably with the Church in that our difference but this was refused I answer they might also if they had pleased have shewed the reasons of our refusal which more theÌ„ once we gave them as 1. Because we are willed to observ all things whatsoever Christ coÌ„manded his disciples Math. 28.20 and therfore his ordinances must not be left in practise and holden in judgement onely 2. Because touching the ministerie it is sayd a man can receiv nothing except it be given him from heaven Ioh. 3 27. now to the Ministers it is given to feed guide and govern the Church but not themselves to be the Church and to chalenge the power of the same in things perteyning to the kingdome of Christ. 3. Because touching the people it is sayd Stand fast in the libertie wherwith Christ hath made us free and be not intangled agayn with the yoke of bondage Gal. 5.1 but this was a part of the peoples Christian libertie recovered out of Antichristian bondage viz. to judge synners that are within 1. Cor. 5. and to decide publik causes with their ministers Act. 15.23 28. as parts of the same Church and body 1. Cor. 12.27.28 therfore to be held fast not onely in judgment but in practise 4. Because such giving place to the usurpation of the ministers was the mean of Antichrists beginning and climing to his preeminence which had the people resisted at first and practised the Gospel in the order set by Christ he could not so have prevayled And now also we should look that Antichrist being expelled doo not agayn set in his foot 5. Because if we holding otherweise in judgment should let the true practise of the Gospel goe posteritie after us being brought into bondage might justly blame and curse us that would not stand for the right of the people in that which we acknowledged to be their due These things considered we desired them then and stil doo to shew us how we could let goe our ancient practise until our judgment were by the word of God changed The 2. thing by us offred 2. We desired that then we might have a peaceable parting and to be two distinct congregations ech practising as they were perswaded yet nourishing brotherly love and unitie This also they would not agree to unless we would leav this citie Their answer is A peaceable parting we grant they desired in word but in deed stayed not with us but departed whiles we were considering whither it could lawfully be effected or not c. Our replie We desired it in word and deed instantly alleging the parting of Paul and Barnabas Act. 15.39 the doctrine of the Apostle Phil. 3.15.16 the practise of Abram and Lot though in a civil case parting to avoyd strife Gen. 13.8.9 the avoyding of publick reproch in the world c. But whatsoever we could say perswaded them not but they withstood us We stayed long and had we folowed their delayes we might have taried to this day and have had no other answer at their hands How long have they been considering about their Teachers ordination and stil it dependeth We are not ignorant of their pretenses to put off the thing they like not with a consideration But in deed we had their refusals often before we parted Which was much in them that had chaÌ„ged their former profession and innovated the practise that they should so refuse Had we been the men that had made such innovation and they continued as before we had surely been excommunicated long ere that time of our departing Of our busynes with the Church of Leyden it fel out after and is now to be spoken of in the third place The third thing 3. We procured though without their consent the help of the English church at Leyden who laboured our peace a way of peace by these theÌ„selves propounded and by the Church of Leyden and vs agreed to these after reversed and stood not unto unless we would goe dwel out of this citie And alâ—hough in the treatie of the agreement it was testified by the Elders of that Church that unless it were to the apparant undoing of us and of our families wee should not be dismissed agayn to dwell here yet because wee would not absolutely promise to leave this citie they would not stand to the agreement which themseves had made Their answers our replies Here they seek to wind out themselves from blame by sundry pretexts and long narrations I will breifly touch the principal being sory to weary the reader with our strifes 1. First for the thing by them propounded of mens going froÌ„ the one Church and Pastor to the other by us agreed unto it was not because we desired or liked such a course but earnestly desiring peace upoÌ„ any tollerable coÌ„ditions seing for the present no unlawfull thing in it we assented though the thing would have been much to our detriment For all of us must have made a journey to Leyden and back agayn with charge and trouble it being then mid-winter and such as could have had means of livelihood there must there have remayned which perhaps would have been the one half of us and so our congregation had been greatly diminished which was one mayn thing that our adverse brethren plotted as the events did manifest The Church at Leyden also as we must have suffred continually their our members to goe when they would into the practise of those errors with our opposite brethreÌ„ a thing which we wil carefully take heed of how ever we yeild to the like agayn 2. That the officers of the Church of Leyden did at the first coÌ„ceive that we all must remayn with them we cannot say Sure wee are we did not so conceiv but M. Iohnson so propounded it as we al even by his words understood it otherweise and himself being after pressed could not deny it 3. That the thing was agreed of and the second time by them absolutely concluded that three were sent with the message after the brethren of Leyden to signifie it as they write is true and past denyal 4. That after they made new motion of an other course is true also but they omitt the publik breaking of the former agreement wheÌ„ they signifying that forasmuch as they perceived our purpose was to return and live agayn in this citie they did playnly reverse it 5. The motion which they made of a double practise as it was disliked by the Church of Leyden as they signify so we