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body_n church_n head_n part_n 10,210 5 5.3186 4 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A09739 Ane answer made the fourth day of Septembre a thousand fyue hundreth syxtie [and] one, by maister Theodore de Besza minister of the holie Euangile, in the presence of the quene mother, the king and quene of Nauarre, the princes of the blood royall, and of the priuie counseil, vnto that whiche the cardinall of Lorraine had replied against that whiche was propounded in the first iourney of their talking together, by the said de Besza in the name of the reformed churches. Together with an other short answer made by the said de Besza the 26 day of the said moneth vnto certein articles of replie set forth by the said cardinall Bèze, Théodore de, 1519-1605.; Baron, John. 1562 (1562) STC 2000; ESTC S119255 24,857 90

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every_o assembly_n 8._o for_o to_o maintene_v they_o self_n have_v a_o policy_n under_o some_o superior_a who_o they_o must_v obey_v but_o forsomuche_o as_o our_o sin_n be_v often_o time_n the_o cause_n that_o thigh_n two_o point_n in_o no_o wise_n appear_v unto_o man_n therefore_o we_o will_v content_v ourselves_o with_o the_o two_o first_o as_o touch_v the_o word_n that_o it_o be_v a_o sure_a mark_n of_o the_o church_n it_o appear_v by_o this_o that_o the_o same_o word_n be_v compare_v unto_o a_o seed_n both_o by_o jesus_n christ_n &_o by_o saint_n peter_n 25._o by_o reason_n whereof_o also_o saint_n paul_n ha_v say_v y_z t_z he_o ha_v beget_v the_o corinthiens_n in_o y_o e_o lord_n to_o wit_n by_o the_o preach_n of_o
beauty_n 13_o where_o there_o shall_v be_v neither_o spot_n nor_o wrinkle_n it_o know_v god_n 13_o but_o it_o be_v in_o a_o part_n when_o i_o speak_v thus_o i_o believe_v y_fw-fr t_z you_o know_v the_o apostle_n own_o word_n for_o to_o be_v brief_a i_o confess_v that_o without_o y_z e_z church_n there_o be_v no_o salvation_n because_o there_o be_v no_o life_n but_o in_o jesus_n christ_n &_o jesus_n christ_n employ_v not_o his_o livelie_a virtue_n no_o where_o else_o but_o amongst_o his_o membre_n 13_o the_o union_n and_o assembly_n whereof_o be_v call_v the_o church_n but_o the_o question_n be_v to_o know_v whether_o that_o in_o this_o world_n the_o church_n may_v err_v 13_o and_o whether_o it_o be_v above_o the_o scripture_n or_o else_o altogether_o subject_a unto_o the_o same_o hereunto_o do_v i_o answer_v that_o it_o be_v a_o thing_n without_o all_o doubt_n that_o the_o particular_a membre_n of_o the_o church_n may_v err_v and_o do_v err_v daily_a both_o in_o doctrine_n and_o manner_n according_a unto_o that_o which_o s._n paul_n say_v that_o we_o know_v in_o a_o part_n 18._o and_o s._n john_n that_o if_o we_o say_v y_z t_z we_o have_v no_o sin_n we_o deceive_v ourselves_o but_o if_o any_o body_n will_v except_v out_o of_o this_o nombre_fw-fr the_o ancient_a doctor_n he_o shall_v perdonne_fw-fr we_o if_o we_o believe_v he_o not_o fault_n for_o it_o be_v easy_a for_o we_o to_o gather_v many_o witness_n of_o fault_n y_z t_z be_v find_v in_o the_o great_a and_o most_o ancient_a of_o they_o let_v this_o be_v speak_v save_v the_o reverence_n due_a unto_o their_o godliness_n and_o learning_n but_o we_o will_v not_o stay_v ourselves_o so_o much_o here_o for_o the_o honour_n that_o we_o hear_v unto_o they_o and_z y_z t_z not_o without_o good_a cause_n as_o also_o because_o if_o i_o have_v well_o understand_v the_o say_n of_o my_o lord_n cardinal_n that_o he_o be_v no_o more_o of_o that_o mind_n than_o we_o to_o deceive_v they_o without_o exception_n this_o be_v it_o that_o we_o understand_v of_o the_o membre_n of_o the_o church_n in_o particularity_n the_o imperfection_n whereof_o do_v not_o stop_v but_o y_z t_z the_o church_n be_v form_v and_o make_v thereof_o for_o by_o little_a and_o little_o do_v they_o go_v forward_o aswell_o in_o the_o knowledge_n of_o god_n as_o in_o the_o amendment_n of_o life_n but_o if_o the_o membre_n of_o the_o church_n be_v general_o consider_v as_o it_o be_v distribute_v in_o diverse_a diocese_n and_o province_n shall_v we_o say_v that_o it_o may_v ●rre_v again_o if_o i_o remember_v well_o my_o lord_n cardinal_n be_v late_o of_o that_o 〈…〉_o special_o the_o particular_a err_v church_n &_o provincial_a council_n may_v err_v and_o have_v often_o err_v and_o sure_o that_o be_v ratify_v by_o so_o long_a a_o experience_n that_o no_o man_n of_o judgement_n as_o i_o suppose_v can_v doubt_n thereof_o there_o rest_v therefore_o to_o consider_v the_o hole_n church_n in_o a_o universality_n but_o in_o what_o sort_n for_o consider_v it_o in_o the_o estimation_n of_o a_o universal_a council_n first_o of_o all_o there_o be_v no_o great_a appearance_n to_o judge_v that_o all_o the_o virtue_n that_o the_o holy_a ghost_n employ_v upon_o y_o e_o church_n be_v restreyn_v to_o a_o certain_a nombre_fw-fr of_o prelate_n the_o which_o be_v not_o alweys_fw-mi y_fw-mi e_o most_o learned_a nor_o y_a e_z best_o yea_o although_o they_o represent_v the_o hole_n multitude_n that_o send_v they_o for_o how_o often_o time_n will_v it_o come_v to_o pass_v that_o a_o simple_a man_n shall_v have_v more_o understanding_n at_o a_o instant_n than_o the_o most_o wise_a of_o a_o hole_n company_n and_o therefore_o be_v it_o say_v by_o gerson_n y_fw-fr t_o more_o credit_n oght_v to_o be_v give_v to_o one_o private_a faithful_a man_n then_o to_o a_o hole_n council_n and_o to_o the_o pope_n err_v if_o he_o have_v better_a authority_n or_o reason_n and_o namely_o in_o y_z e_z great_a council_n of_o niece_n by_o who_o be_v it_o stop_v that_o the_o law_n of_o single_a life_n which_o afterward_o ha_v bring_v so_o great_a filthynes_n into_o the_o church_n be_v not_o then_o establish_v by_o one_o paphnutius_fw-la only_o as_o say_v the_o history_n and_o moreover_o when_o be_v there_o ever_o assemble_v a_o council_n so_o general_a but_o that_o a_o great_a part_n not_o only_o of_o the_o most_o wise_a and_o most_o holy_a man_n but_o also_o of_o the_o prelate_n have_v remain_v be_v hind_n and_o who_o may_v then_o assure_v but_o that_o they_o that_o be_v absent_a some_o time_n have_v great_a revelation_n than_o they_o that_o be_v present_a and_o besides_o all_o this_o my_o lord_n how_o long_o be_v it_o a_o go_v that_o there_o reign_v so_o horrible_a a_o confusion_n in_o y_z e_z church_n and_o principal_o in_o the_o great_a estate_n &_o dignity_n of_o prelate_n in_o such_o sort_n that_o the_o great_a desolation_n of_o the_o house_n of_o god_n be_v in_o that_o part_n where_o it_o oght_v to_o be_v most_o entire_a and_o best_a deck_v at_o the_o least_o it_o be_v a_o long_a time_n past_o that_o the_o exemple_n hereof_o have_v appear_v &_o that_o y_o e_o good_a busshop_n have_v sob_v &_o sigh_v so_o grievous_o therefore_o chur●●_n &_o so_o evident_o that_o we_o hear_v they_o at_o this_o day_n and_o that_o which_o s._n barnard_n write_v of_o this_o matter_n in_o his_o book_n of_o consideration_n and_o in_o the_o 33_o sermon_n on_o the_o canticle_n and_o also_o in_o the_o sermon_n of_o the_o conversion_n of_o s._n paul_n be_v noles_fw-la notoriouse_a they_o true_a alas_o lord_n say_v he_o they_o which_o be_v see_v to_o love_v the_o first_o and_o chief_a place_n in_o thy_o church_n and_o their_o to_o have_v y_z e_o superiority_n be_v first_o in_o a_o readiness_n to_o persecute_v thou_o they_o have_v take●_n the_o ark_n of_o zion_n they_o have_v vio●lently_o possess_v the_o castle_n and_o by_o power_n have_v set_v fire_n on_o th●_n hole_n city_n let_v this_o be_v speak_v m●_n lord_n not_o to_o injury_n any_o body_n bi●_n to_o show_v that_o the_o chief_a vocation_n i●_n the_o church_n be_v of_o so_o long_a a_o tym●_n so_o confuse_v and_o misreul_v that_o it_o i●_n impossible_a to_o conclude_v in_o any_o wys●_n that_o the_o universal_a council_n tha●_n have_v be_v now_o of_o a_o long_a time_n ga●thered_v together_o of_o a_o multitude_n so_o e●●_n qualify_v have_v be_v so_o guide_v by_o 〈◊〉_d holy_a spirit_n that_o they_o can_v no●_n err_v a_o ancient_a priest_n of_o who_o i_o will_v make_v no_o mention_n in_o this_o company_n if_o it_o be_v not_o that_o they_o allege_v his_o example_n in_o this_o matter_n 11._o do_v prophesy_v well_o although_o he_o be_v no_o thing_n worth_a but_o we_o read_v none_o otherwise_o but_o he_o err_v yea_o both_o y_z t_z he_o &_o his_o company_n in_o condemn_v jesus_n christ_n for_o it_o be_v the_o holy_a ghost_n y_o it_o propheseid_v in_o this_o behalf_n and_o not_o he_o which_o know_v not_o what_o he_o say_v nor_o what_o he_o speak_v be_v move_v with_o it_o a_o spirit_n very_o contrarious_a that_o be_v to_o say_v a_o devilish_a spirit_n because_o of_o malice_n he_o conclude_v to_o sic_fw-la a_o jesus_n christ_n the_o son_n of_o god_n 11._o and_o further_o if_o a_o general_a council_n ha_v receive_v this_o privilege_n that_o they_o can_v not_o err_v in_o y_fw-es e_fw-es rewle_fw-mi of_o their_o doctrine_n nor_o in_o y_z e_z form_n of_o their_o manner_n we_o demand_v what_o time_n be_v this_o privilege_n date_v for_o there_o be_v never_o but_o one_o god_n one_o faith_n 11._o and_o one_o church_n now_o that_o there_o be_v error_n in_o the_o church_n in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n the_o prophet_n open_o bear_v witness_n and_o y_z e_z history_n show_v good_a proof_n thereof_o 11._o 56._o all_z y_z e_z wache_n man_n say_v esay_n 56_o ▪_o chaptre_n be_v blind_a they_o know_v no_o thing_n they_o be_v all_o dumb_v dog_n ▪_o and_o jerem_n 6_o chaptre_n ●_o frome_n the_o prophet_n to_o the_o priest_n they_o work_v all_o untrueth_n and_o to_o the_o intent_n y_fw-fr t_o this_o may_v not_o be_v restreyn_v unto_o the_o life_n of_o particular_a person_n it_o be_v say_v in_o the_o 14_o chaptre_n of_o the_o same_o prophet_n 14_o they_o prophesy_v false_a thing_n and_o a_o lie_v vision_n and_o in_o isay_n the_o 29_o chaptre_n the_o wisdom_n of_o the_o wise_n shall_v perish_v &_o the_o understanding_n of_o y_fw-fr e_o prudent_a shall_v vanish_v away_o 29._o god_n shall_v shut_v up_o the_o eye_n of_o the_o prophet_n and_o of_o y_fw-fr e_fw-la principals_n and_o in_o ezechiell_n the_o 7_o chaptre_n 7_o the_o law_n shall_v perish_v from_o the_o priest_n and_o to_o say_v the_o truth_n who_o condemn_v you_o e_o prophet_n as_o jeremias_n
the_o same_o wherein_o we_o have_v so_o follow_v y_o e_o word_n of_o god_n that_o every_o one_o as_o we_o judge_v have_v occasion_n to_o be_v content_v with_o our_o answer_n but_o in_o stead_n to_o approve_v that_o which_o be_v speak_v by_o we_o we_o have_v be_v demand_v by_o what_o power_n we_o minister_v y_fw-fr e_o word_n of_o god_n and_o the_o holy_a sacrament_n and_o besides_o all_o that_o there_o be_v no_o thing_n spare_v that_o may_v make_v our_o cause_n more_o odiouse_a ●ardin●●●_n we_o can_v not_o tell_v for_o what_o purpose_n this_o be_v set_v forward_o for_o first_o of_o all_o we_o come_v not_o hither_o to_o minister_v the_o word_n of_o god_n nor_o the_o sacrament_n wherefore_o there_o be_v no_o need_n to_o ask_v we_o by_o what_o authority_n we_o will_v do_v it_o if_o it_o shall_v be_v say_v that_o it_o be_v to_o cause_v we_o rendre_fw-fr a_fw-fr reason_n of_o that_o which_o we_o have_v do_v heretofore_o ●ardin●●●_n you_o must_v consider_v that_o our_o company_n be_v of_o two_o manner_n of_o people_n the_o one_o serve_v for_o minister_n without_o this_o realm_n in_o place_n where_o their_o vocation_n be_v receive_v of_o they_o it_o may_v not_o be_v demand_v why_o they_o be_v minister_n there_o be_v other_o that_o preach_v within_o this_o realm_n who_o you_o have_v not_o call_v to_o cause_v they_o give_v a_o account_n of_o that_o w_n c_o is_z pass_v as_o touch_v their_o vocation_n but_o only_o to_o confer_v with_o their_o doctrine_n or_o else_o it_o shall_v be_v a_o beginning_n to_o make_v process_n against_o they_o the_o which_o thing_n madam_n we_o be_v sure_a that_o you_o have_v not_o mind_v if_o it_o be_v after_o a_o sort_n to_o confer_v under_o correction_n there_o shall_v be_v therein_o no_o great_a purpose_n and_o y_o it_o can_v not_o serve_v but_o to_o cause_v we_o entre_fw-fr into_o this_o matter_n out_o of_o the_o w_n c_o we_o can_v not_o depart_v without_o offend_v and_o anger_v my_o lord_n y_o e_o prelate_n the_o which_o we_o have_v not_o mind_v nether_a will_v we_o give_v occasion_n unto_o any_o body_n to_o interrupt_v this_o holy_a work_n that_o be_v begin_v and_o that_o it_o may_v be_v know_v y_o it_o we_o speak_v not_o without_o great_a cause_n similitude_n alwey_n as_o two_o party_n meet_v to_o entre_fw-fr into_o conference_n if_o the_o one_o ask_v the_o other_o by_o what_o virtue_n do_v you_o this_o the_o other_o will_v demand_n the_o like_a and_o so_o it_o be_v very_o hard_o but_o of_o these_o reciproque_n demand_n there_o will_v arise_v some_o dissension_n therefore_o now_o leave_v a_o part_n my_o lord_n the_o prelate_n of_o this_o realm_n who_o we_o will_v not_o offend_v let_v we_o imagine_v unto_o we_o a_o busshop_n that_o demand_v of_o we_o by_o what_o title_n preach_v you_o and_o minister_v you_o the_o sacrament_n we_o will_v demand_n of_o he_o if_o he_o himself_o be_v choose_v by_o the_o ancients_n or_o elder_n of_o the_o church_n unto_o the_o which_o he_o be_v appoint_v to_o be_v busshop_n similitude_n if_o he_o be_v require_v by_o the_o people_n if_o there_o be_v information_n before_o that_o take_v of_o his_o life_n and_o doctrine_n he_o will_v say_v yea_o but_o the_o contrary_n be_v well_o know_v and_o we_o remit_v ourselves_o unto_o the_o conscience_n of_o they_o that_o hear_v we_o w_o c_o know_v how_o this_o go_v and_o if_o he_o will_v say_v unto_o we_o you_o be_v not_o minister_n because_o you_o have_v not_o the_o imposition_n of_o hand_n we_o may_v answer_v he_o you_o be_v no_o minister_n because_o that_o in_o your_o institution_n or_o ordain_v be_v omit_v the_o substantial_a point_n and_o that_o command_v by_o god_n law_n vocati●●_n the_o which_o may_v not_o be_v dispense_v with_o and_o if_o y_z e_z disputation_n grow_v more_o hot_a we_o shall_v go_v further_o &_o may_v use_v such_o word_n you_o have_v but_o one_o of_o the_o three_o point_n requisite_a in_o the_o institution_n or_o ordain_v which_o be_v the_o imposition_n of_o hand_n if_o the_o want_v of_o that_o as_o you_o esteem_v do_v deprive_v we_o that_o we_o can_v not_o be_v minister_n for_o want_v of_o the_o other_o two_o much_o less_o you_o shall_v be_v minister_n than_o we_o the_o council_n of_o calcidome_n 〈…〉_o which_o be_v one_o of_o the_o 4_o general_a council_n ordain_v that_o that_o the_o institution_n of_o a_o priest_n shall_v be_v void_a which_o ha_v not_o be_v depute_v spicial_o unto_o y_z e_o service_n of_o soon_o church_n irrita_fw-la say_v he_o in_o iniuriam_fw-la ordinantis_fw-la with_o more_o strong_a reason_n may_v we_o say_v the_o same_o to_o the_o busshop_n y_fw-mi it_o shall_v dispute_v with_o we_o when_o he_o want_v y_o e_o two_o substantial_a point_n contrary_a to_o the_o ordinance_n of_o y_fw-fr e_o apostle_n 2._o yet_o see_v a_o other_o point_n which_o greve_v we_o great_o to_o speak_v and_o yet_o nevertheless_o be_v we_o constrain_v thereunto_o that_o we_o may_v show_v to_o all_o this_o company_n that_o if_o this_o disputation_n of_o the_o vocation_n be_v once_o open_v it_o shall_v be_v great_o dangerous_a if_o we_o shall_v ask_v he_o who_o give_v he_o this_o imposition_n of_o hand_n he_o will_v say_v that_o it_o be_v the_o busshop_n by_o the_o authority_n y_fw-fr t_o be_v give_v unto_o they_o 2._o and_o if_o we_o shall_v ask_v he_o for_o how_o much_o he_o boght_v that_o authority_n he_o will_v say_v that_o he_o ha_v not_o boght_v it_o but_o that_o he_o ha_v give_v so_o many_o thousand_o crown_n that_o be_v to_o say_v i_o have_v not_o boght_v the_o bread_n but_o the_o corn_n so_o that_o if_o you_o be_v willing_a to_o decide_v this_o question_n by_o the_o council_n or_o canon_n of_o the_o church_n there_o shall_v a_o infinite_a nombre_fw-fr of_o busshoppe_n and_o curate_n have_v red_a face_n 2._o and_o therefore_o madam_n we_o be_v not_o willing_a to_o entre_fw-fr therein_o for_o fear_v to_o offend_v any_o body_n nor_o to_o make_v any_o revenge_n but_o only_o to_o show_v you_o madame_fw-fr y_fw-fr t_o if_o we_o shall_v brief_o answer_v this_o be_v the_o desire_n that_o we_o have_v not_o to_o offend_v any_o body_n and_o as_o touch_v the_o article_n of_o y_fw-fr e_o holy_a supper_n of_o our_o lord_n we_o will_v not_o of_o late_o speak_v any_o further_a of_o it_o but_o have_v a_o respect_n to_o many_o of_o this_o company_n which_o have_v not_o be_v accustom_v to_o hear_v speak_v thereof_o any_o thing_n so_o forward_o but_o y_o it_o they_o be_v easy_o offend_v when_o they_o hear_v any_o thing_n that_o seem_v new_a unto_o they_o and_o therefore_o we_o have_v rather_o that_o they_o shall_v hear_v the_o say_n of_o the_o ancient_a doctor_n of_o the_o church_n th●_n we_o consider_v y_z t_o my_o lord_n cardinal_n of_o lorraine_n ha_v bind_v himself_o by_o his_o promise_n open_o to_o instruct_v we_o in_o this_o article_n with_o the_o word_n of_o the_o doctor_n 2._o that_o write_v the_o first_o fyve_v hundred_o year_n so_o y_z t_z we_o be_v prepare_v to_o receive_v the_o light_n if_o it_o have_v be_v show_v unto_o we_o that_o which_o hitherto_o ha_v be_v hide_v from_o us._n now_o to_o saitisfie_v we_o and_o also_o a_o great_a part_n of_o christendom_n in_o that_o that_o we_o desire_v &_o look_v for_o there_o be_v propound_v to_o we_o the_o article_n of_o the_o holy_a sacrament_n cut_v of_o and_o mingle_v 2._o i●_n the_o principale_a and_o most_o necessary_a point_n &_o therewith_o it_o be_v say_v unto_o we_o sign_n this_o if_o not_o we_o will_v go_v no_o further_o and_o if_o we_o be_v present_v prisoner_n unto_o you_o to_o be_v accuse_v yet_o shall_v you_o not_o say_v sign_n this_o if_o not_o i_o condemn_v you_o your_o estate_n bind_v you_o to_o speak_v otherways_o and_o command_v you_o to_o show_v we_o our_o error_n if_o we_o have_v any_o and_o will_v that_o you_o shall_v be_v sufficient_a to_o exhort_v in_o wholesome_a doctrine_n they_o that_o have_v need_n of_o doctrine_n and_o that_o be_v ready_a to_o rendre_fw-fr a_o reason_n of_o their_o faith_n by_o the_o scripture_n and_o although_o the_o manner_n to_o condemn_v we_o be_v new_a yet_o the_o mean_n which_o have_v be_v therein_o use_v be_v more_o strange_a as_o i_o shall_v short_o show_v madam_n we_o be_v here_o present_a for_o two_o principale_a end_n 2._o the_o one_o be_v to_o rendre_fw-fr a_o reason_n to_o god_n and_o to_o you_o &_o to_o all_o the_o world_n of_o our_o faith_n the_o other_o be_v to_o do_v service_n to_o god_n and_o to_o the_o king_n and_o to_o you_o in_o all_o possible_a mean_n to_o appese_n and_o mitigate_v the_o trouble_n that_o be_v rise_v in_o the_o cause_n of_o religion_n if_o you_o send_v we_o away_o again_o without_o give_v we_o some_o with_o wh●e_n we_o may_v charitable_o confer_v there_o be_v no_o