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A18448 The oration of the most noble and reverende father in God the Lorde Cardinalles Grace of Lorrain made and pronounced in thassemblie [sic] at Poyssi, the kyng beyng present, the sixtene daye of Septembre, in the yeare of our Lorde 1561 / translated out of Frenche into Englishe by T.S. Guise, Charles de, Cardinal de Lorraine, 1525-1574. 1561 (1561) STC 5010.5; ESTC S283 23,800 31

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dispersed in the churche and a congregation of them in one certaine place in the name of oure Lorde God And if our Lorde haue assured and promised by his woorde one or two beyng gathered together in his name to bee in the myddest of them shoulde he refuse to bee amonge suche then as are farre better and in more nombre laufully assembled we ought truely then to crie oute with Dauid Psal 110 Great are the woorkes of our Lorde in the councell of the iuste and in their congregation But it hath ben declared vnto vs that not onely the prouinciall counsels haue bene corrected by the generall counsels but also which is a more matter that one generall counsel hath ben amended by an other De baptism 11 2. cap. 3. We knowe this to be saint Augustins sayeng whiche we say is to be vnderstand when there is question of customes and of discipline which do change accordyng to the tyme and will be changed accordyng to the qualitie of the places tymes and persons as it is seene by experience De sanguine suffocato But in tharticles of the faith and in thynges necessary to our saluation the holy ghost is the director in whom is no contradiction or contrarietie and so we beleue it That it is otherwyse it ought to be proued or els no more spoken of For if it were so in vaine and without profite our ancient fathers haue had thervnto suche recourse and reposed in them so great affiance in all the myseries and calamities of the churche and should not therof haue founde by experience the successe so happie Of which good fathers that are gone before vs behold what we saye That euery of them was a man so might erre But that all in one selfe same article or assemblie in one selfe same do at diuers times dispersed throughoute the churches haue erred Godlye counsell and admonitiō to knovv the churche Vincēt Lyrinēsis we denie and mainteine it to bee impossible groundyng the same vpon gods infallible promesse Very profitably therfore one among those fathers for the conclusion of this purpose dothe geue vs councell and faith in this wise What shall we doo say the catholikes if any parte of the churche doth separate it self from the cōmunion of the vniuersall faith preferre the body beyng yet holle before a corrupt and sicke membre But if the sore haue thupper hande and beginneth to attempt thinfection of the churche then leane and cleane vnto the antiquitie and returne to the mothers whiche are the principall and first churches Emong whom al the antiquitie hath had recourse vnto the Romain churche and hath alwaies accompted her to be the first and principall among the Apostolicall churches as Ireneus Tertullian and S. Austen doo beare witnesse recountyng the bishops vntill their tymes who with all other auncient fathers haue alwais acknowleged that churche as the chief See of all Christendome callynge the Bishoppe thereof Primae Sedis Episcopum Nowe if in this antiquitie there be founde any errour either in any author or in any particular towne or prouince then against suche ignorance and temeritie of a fewe persons lay the decrees of ancient and vniuersall counsailes and if in those counsailes ye fynde nothyng serche diligently the sentences of all the ancient fathers approued by the churche writen to that purpose and gather and collect them together from all tymes and from all places as thoughe they were all together present at a Councell And that whiche all they haue openly and at sundrye tymes with greate continuance agreed accorded written and witnessed with one consent Knowe ye that without any doubte ye oughte the same to beleue and therevnto to submitte and subiecte your selues And aboue all thinges geue place as they doo to the expresse worde of God and to the testimonie of the scripture This is that we haue intreated concernynge the first point This is the authoritie that we geue to the holye scriptures to the determinations of the councells to the writinges of the olde and ancient fathers which order we purpose to obserue both for the confirmation of our flocks in the faithe and also to brynge home agayne suche as are gone astraye whiche can deuise none other waye to haue their doctrine and priuate interpretation to be credited and beleued but to despise and condemn thautoritie of the hole who reiectyng thantiquitie go about to bryng in estimation of their owne nouelties and deuises A thyng truely wherewith the Arrians were greatly troubled and dyd very well disclose Nestorius Samosatenus and dyuers other Euse li. 7. ca. 30. Socrat. lib. 7. capit 32. and doubtlesse shall reuele all suche as will discerne a strawe in their neighbors eie and can not see a blocke in their owne Nowe I come to the last poynte of my oration whiche although it be last yet in very dede the principalst We haue conceyued an extreme grefs and sorowe suche a one as can not be dissēbled which is that the most holy blessed sacramēt of the Eucharistie which our lorde lefte vnto vs for a band of vnitie and of his peace by a certaine curiositie I can not terme it more gently of searchyng thynges aboue oure capacitie Eccle 3. which contrary to the counsell of the wise man is made not onely an argumente of infinite controuersie and altercatiō but also a right waie wholly to destroy the truth or at the lest to expel driue away the same And in nothing els truly is the comon prouerbe By to muche disputyng debatyng the truthe is lost more ve●fied than in this For not onely the truthe dooth perishe The Sacramente of the bodye and bloud of Christ 1. Cor. 10. Math 5. Ioan 6 but the fruite also which we should therby receaue if we vse it wel which consisteth in foure poyntes The firste is the vnitie and reconciliation whiche we ought to haue and make one with an other For it is written that we beyng many in numbre are al but one body which do participate of one breade and of one cuppe And it is commanded that when one dothe make his oblation to the altare he ought first to reconcile hymselfe to his brother The secōd is the vnitie with IESVS CHRIST Who sayth he that eateth my fleshe drinketh my bloode dwelleth in me 1. Co. 10 and I in hym The bread whiche we breake is it not the cōmunion of the body of Iesus Christ and the cup is it not the communion of his blood The thirde fruite is the forgeuenesse of sinnes For truly this blood is shed for the remission of sinnes The fowerth last is the attaynyng of lyfe euerlastyng For he that eateth this bread saith our lord shall lyue euerlastyngly All the contrary wherof cometh by this disputation Diuision among vs separation from god priuation from the remission of sinnes and from atteinyng of life euerlastyng For out of the churche there is no saluation and who so