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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A12592	A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie.	Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them.	1588 (1588)	STC 22909; ESTC S117654	118,250	200

haue beene greatly disquieted and the good course of religion hath beene greatly hindered The cause of this sore is intollerable pride and grosse ignorance in these bad companions and want of care in the Magistrates If any shall aske mee what the true causes are why so many vnfitte men are the Churches Ministers I answere either great want of iudgement or great corruption in such which doe ordeine and preferre them The sinne of these men is very great for they dishonour Almightie God and do grosly abuse the people of the land This disease will bee healed when the Churches maintenance is not disposed of by them which haue the golden dropsie but is freely giuen to worthie and painefull students which will neither fish with the siluer hooke nor open the Church doore with a siluer key 9. THE GODLY ARE not polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister THE Sacramentes are Gods ordinance the Ministers ignorance cannot peruert the nature of Gods ordinance A Sacrament can neuer be without promise of saluation therefore the worthy partaker of the Sacrament receiues a blessing if a blessing then no pollution That he receiues a blessing the Apostle teacheth vs We are buried with Christ saith S. Paul by baptisme into his death c. Rom. 6. verse 4. The cuppe of blessing which we blesse is it not the communion of the blood of Christ The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of Christ 1. Cor. 11. verse 16. The parents of Christ went to Ierusalem euery yere at the feast of the Passeouer Luk. 2. vers 41. their going to Ierusalem was to testifie their religion to be partakers of the sacrifices There were at that time in Salomons Temple manifold corruptions the high Priesthood was solde for money many of the Iewish Priests were ignorant yet Ioseph the virgine Mary were not polluted Calu. Luc. 2. vers 41. The godly which receiue the holy Supper of an vnpreaching Minister are not partakers of the Ministers vnworthinesse but of the holy Sacrament which is a pillar of our faith therefore the vnworthinesse of the Minister doth not defile the Communicāt Alterius siue Pastoris siue priuati indignitate non laeditur pia conscientia c. Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 19. that is A godly conscience is not hurt by the vnworthinesse of an other either Pastor or priuate man neither are the mysteries lesse pure and healthfull to a holy man because they are then handled of such as be impure Ille qui accipit si homo bonus ab homine malo si fidelis à perfido si pius ab impio perniciosumerit danti non accipienti Illud quippe sanctum malè vtentem iudicat bene accipientem sanctificat Aug. contra Cresc gram lib. 2. cap. 28. that is he which receiueth if a good of an euill man if a faithfull of a faithlesse man if a godly of a wicked man it will be hurtful to the giuer not to the receiuer for that holy thing he meaneth the sacrament doth iudge him which vseth it ill but doeth sanctifie him which receiueth it well Circumcision was one of the Lords Sacraments in the Iewish Church The Iewes which were circumcised of impure priestes and Apostates receiued no hurt therefore no pollution Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 15. Sect. 16. The Sacraments neither are nor can be the worse for the ignorance or vnworthinesse or better for the learning or worthinesse of any man whatsoeuer Whosoeuer thinketh otherwise is a Donatist Touching this point of the Sacrament I rest wholy in Augustines iudgement his wordes are these Ego dieo meliùs per bonū ministrū quàm per malū dispensari sacramenta diuina verùm hoc propter ipsum ministrum melius est vteis rebus quas ministrat vita moribus congruat non propter illum qui etiam si incurrerit in ministrum malum dispensantem veritatem securitatem accipit à domino suo monente ac dicente Quae dicunt facite quae autem faciunt nolite facere dicunt enim non faciunt Addo etiam ad hoc esse melius vt ille cui ministratur ministri boni probitatem ac sanctitatem diligendo faciliùs imitetur Sed non ideo veriora sanctiora sunt quae ministrantur quia per meliorem ministrantur Illa namque per seipsa vera sancta sunt propter Deum verum sanctum cuius sunt ideo fieri potest vt accedens ad societatem populi Dei alium inueniat à quo facilè baptizetur alium eligat quem salubriter imitetur Certus est enim sanctum esse Sacramentum Christi etiamsi per minùs sanctum vel non sanctum hominem ministratum est se autem eiusdem ipsius sacramenti sanctitate puniri si indignè acceperit si malè vsus fuerit si ei non conuenienter congruè vixerit August contra Cresc Gram. lib. 4. cap. 20. The summe of Augustines wordes is that the Sacrament is administred better by a good then by a bad Minister yet that the Sacraments of themselues are true and holy c. by what minister so euer they be deliuered c. If any shall aske mee whether it be lawful to omit the partaking of the holy Sacrament in such Churches ouer which ignorant ministers are set and to present our selues and our infants to the holy Sacrament in other Churches my answere is that I referre them to the Magistrate and Gouernours of our Churches c. Obiection By whome a thing ought not to be deliuered by another it ought not to bee receiued but ignorant ministers ought not to deliuer the Sacraments therefore c. Answere The Maior is false My reason is An euill man ought not to deliuer the worde of God but wee ought to receiue it An euill man ought not to giue almes but a poore man may receiue it An absurde minister ought not to deliuer the Sacrament but they are not polluted which receiue it Obiection They of whose ministerie there is a Nullitie before God although they haue an outwarde calling ought not to bee accompted ministers therefore not to bee communicated with I. Penry pag. 43 44. Answere I denie your Antecedent My reasons are First there was a Nullitie before God of Caiphas Priesthoode for hee entred by money and the Priesthood was deuided betweene him and Annas against the Lords order Calu. Luc. 3. yet Caiphas is called the high Priest by the Euangelists Mat. 26. Ioh. 18. Secondly there was a Nullitie before God of the ministerie of some in Philippos which preached Christ of contention and to adde more affliction to Pauls bandes Philip. Chap. 1. verse 15 16. But these are accompted ministers by the Apostle vers 15 18. If any shall deny that there was a Nullitie before God of their ministerie I prooue it thus They had not an inward calling M. Penry saith that an inward calling is contained in the

possunt perfecte euangelizare multò difficilioris rarioris est operis Ideo doctor gentium plurimis excellentior Euangelizare missus est non baptizare quoniam hoc per multos fieri poterat illud per paucos inter quos eminebat August contra lit Petil. Don. lib. 3. cap. 56. I haue not set downe this as either sword or shield for ignorant Ministers My iudgement is that none ought to enter into or continue in the holy Ministerie vnlesse they haue giftes in some measure The Plough man may returne to his share the Artificer to his shop Other to their seuerall trades Almightie God will not be offended if they doe thus Yea his Maiestie wil be highly pleased Zach. 13. Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 6. Melius de media via recurrere quàm semper currere malè It is not safe to continue in a wicked course R. Some A Sacrament can neuer be without promise of saluation therefore the worthie partaker of the Sacramēt receiues a blessing if a blessing then no pollution That he receiues a blessing the Apostle teacheth vs Wee are buried with Christ saith S. Paul by baptisme into his death c. Rom. 6.4 The cuppe of blessing which wee blesse is it not the communion of the blood of Christ The bread which we breake is it not the communion of the body of Christ 1. Cor. 11.16 I. Penry M. Some saith the worthy partaker receiues a blessing if a blessing no pollution c. First it is doubted whether we may be assured that it is a Sacrament Secondly he is no worthy receiuer that receiueth of an idole Minister Thirdly there may be a blessing receiued yet pollution in the receiuer Looke 2. Chro. 30.17.18 19. Nom. 9.7 R. Some Nodum in scirpo quaeris You stumble in the plaine way My answere is First if the vnpreaching Minister haue a calling which no learned man in this land doubteth of it cannot be denied to be a Sacrament It pleaseth you inter sacrum saxum haerere to doubt of it Secondly whosoeuer bringeth faith and repentance with him to the holy Table is a worthy receiuer though the Minister be an idole The vnworthines worthines of the Minister hurtes himselfe but not the godly communicant Otherwise the holy Prophets were vnworthie receiuers which communicated with idole priestes Thirdly you adde that a blessing may be receiued and yet pollution in the receiuer 2. Chr. 30. Nomb. 9. This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iust from the corner to the staffe that I may vse your owne phrase Do you confute on this fashion You should haue proued that the worthy partaker of the Sacrament receiuing a blessing receiued pollution that is sinne by partaking the Sacrament Because this passeth your skill you fight with your shadowe and tell me that a blessing may be receiued and yet pollution in the receiuer That is to say that pollution is brought of the Communicant to the holy table not receiued from or by the holy Sacrament This makes nothing against that which I haue written Onely it bewrayeth your ignorance All godly men confesse that pollution that is sinne is in the holiest Communicants I meane peccatum habitans non regnans That is sinne dwelleth in Gods seruants but hath not dominion ouer them The Patriarks Nazarites Prophets Apostles had this pollution They could not shake it off in this life the best of them had their wants Only our Sauiour Christ was cleare of sinne You and I agree I am sure in this particuler If I should aske you how you proue pollution that is sinne to bee in the receiuer of the holy Sacrament you woulde referre mee to your quotations in the booke of Chronicles and Numbers Giue me leaue to examine your quotations a litle Your first place is in the Chronicles The words of the text are these Because there were many in the Congregation that were not sanctified therfore the Leuites had the charge of the killing of the Passeouer for all that were not cleane to sanctifie it to the Lord. For a multitude of the people euen a multitude of Ephraim and Manasseh Issachar and Zebulun had not cleansed themselues yet did cate the Passeouer but not as it was written Wherefore Hezekiah prayed for them saying The good Lord be mercifull toward him that prepareth his whole heart to seeke the Lord God the God of his fathers though hee be not cleansed according to the purification of the Sanctuarie 2. Chr. 30.17 18 19. All that you can proue by this place is that they of Ephraim Manasseh Issachar c. were vncleane according to the purification of the Sanctuarie that is touching some ceremonie of Moses law for which vncleannes they were dispensed with Your seconde place is in the booke of Numbers The wordes of the text are these And certaine men were defiled by a dead man that they might not keepe the Passeouer the same day and they came before Moses and before Aaron the same day And those men said vnto him we are defiled by a dead man wherefore are wee kept backe that wee may not offer an offering vnto the Lord in the time thereunto appointed among the children of Israel Then Moses said vnto them stand stil and I wil heare what the Lord will cōmande concerning you And the Lord spake vnto Moses saying Speake vnto the childrē of Israel say if any among you or of your posteritie shall he vncleane by the reason of a corps or bee in a long iourney he shall keepe the Passeouer vnto the Lord. Nu. 9. ver 6 7 8 9 10. All that you can gather of this place is that these mē which were defiled by reason of a dead mā did not celebrate the passeouer before the Lordes pleasure vvas knowen You cannot conclude either of this place in the booke of Numbers or of the former place in the Chronicles that sinne was in these which offered themselues to the Passeouer I doubt not but that these men had pollution that is sinne in them But I am sure these places neither doe nor can prooue it for you may not reason thus They of Ephraim c. were vncleane touching some ceremonie of Moses lawe therefore they were sinners If you do I deny your argument It is a certaine truth in diuinitie that not euery legall pollution was ioyned with sinne My reason is the touching of a dead body was a legall vncleannesse If it were a sinne then the buriall of the dead which is a Christian duetie and a worke of mercy should be sinne Thus you haue taken paines but to litle purpose You haue shotte I confesse but nec coelum nec terram attingis you are many scores wide R. Some The parents of Christ went to Ierusalem euery yere at the feast of the passeouer Luk. 2.41 Their going to Ierusalē was to testifie their religion to be partakers of the Sacrifices There were at that time in Solomons Temple manifold corruptions the high priesthood was solde

Matthewe that none whatsoeuer may be admitted to baptisme before they be taught they shut our infants from the holy sacrament and therefore are Catabaptists Master Penry answeres nothing to this So am I eased of some labour R. Some The vnpreaching Ministers do adde verbum aedificans that is an edifying word to the Elements in the administratiō of the holy Supper therefore c. I. Penry Vnpreaching Ministers doe adde an edifying worde vnto the Element therfore it is a Sacrament This reason is the same with the former Which sheweth the great nakednes pouertie of the cause that one reason must be thrise periured to proue the goodnes of it which notwithstanding it can not shew I denie the antecedent and consequent R. Some Your eyes are not matches If they were you might haue seene very easily that no reason of mine is periured once much lesse thrise I am perswaded that if you be not well coniured by the Magistrate you wil proue a strange body You are farre gone alreadie Strange fancies haue almost cōsumed you The Magistrates discipline is the fittest medicine for you If that will not recouer you your disease is desperate You denie both my antecedent consequent My antecedēt was that vnpreaching Ministers do adde an edifying word to the Element That there is verbum aedificans I proue it thus The summe of Christes Sermon in the Institution administration of the holy Supper by himselfe is the worde of Institution in the administration of the holy Supper in the Church of England therefore vnlesse we wil denie the summe of Christes Sermon to bee an edifying worde which no learned man will denie we must confesse that wee haue verbum aedificans that is an edifying worde in the administration of the holy Supper with vs. I. Penry Your reason of the antecedent that the recital of the summe of Christs Sermon that is the words of Institution is an edifying worde is falfe and maintaineth charming For doe you thinke that the worde of institution being as you say the summe of Christs Sermon is then an edifying worde whensoeuer it is recited by a prophane person euen in the prophanation of Gods ordinance Looke 2. Tim. 4.3 and you shall finde that the worde barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not holsome doctrine The popish priest either without or within the booke pronounceth in his darke Latine the summe of Christs sermon Is that an edifying word which he prophanely breatheth The word of God vttered is not an edifying worde vnlesse it bee vtered according to the ordinance both in regard of the persons that vtter the same and the ende wherefore it is vttered No learned man wil denie the Lords prayer rightly sayd to be an edifying worde And yet by your leaue no learned man vnlesse he fauoureth charming or poperie will say that the Lords prayer pronounced by an ignorant man in a strange tongue or prophaned by a witch is an edifying word R. Some M. Penry is now in his Ruffe His pride and ignorance appeare in their colours They are proclaimed euen by himselfe He denieth that the recitall of the summe of Christs Sermō by an vnpreaching minister is an edifying word he saieth it maintaineth charming Can we thinke that this man is guided by Gods spirit whose heart conceiued and pen broght forth such blasphemie That the reader may be assured that the summe of Christs Sermon is an edifying word I will first set downe the word of Institution which is the summe of Christs Sermon and then proue the point The word of institution in the holy Supper is The Lord Iesus the same night that he was betrayed tooke bread and when he had giuen thanks he brake it and saide Take eate this is my body which is broken for you this doe ye in remembrance of me After the same maner also he tooke the cuppe when he had supped saying this cup is the new Testamēt in my blood this do as oft as ye drinke it in remembrance of me 1. Cor. 11. That this word of Institution doth edifie it is manifest for it teacheth vs first who did institute the holy Supper The Lord Iesus Secondly at vvhat time The same night that he was betrayed Thirdly vvhat the Elements are in the holy Supper Bread and wine Fourthly what our Sauiour Christ did Hee gaue thankes he brake the bread c. Fifthly what the Lorde Iesus saide when hee deliuered the Elements Take eate c. Doeth this maintaine charming Is there not edifying in this If you be not voyde of grace be ashamed and sorie for your blasphemous levvdnes An other particuler vvhich you reache vnto vs is a bird of the same feather viz. that the vvorde barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not holsome doctrine For proofe of this grosse and blasphemous errour you vse three reasons The first is out of S. Paul to Timothee The time will come when they will not suffer holsome doctrine but hauing their eares itching shall after their owne lustes get them an heape of teachers 2. Tim. 4.3 Therefore the vvord barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is no holsome doctrine This reason cleaues together like a broken potsheard I denie your argument The Apostle in that Chapter commaundeth Timothee to attende carefully vpon preaching c. His reason is Many will loath and hate holsome doctrine they will chuse such teachers as wil tickle their eares and feede their humours 2. Tim. 4.3 Such gracelesse people were in the time of Esay and Micheas Esa 30. Mich. 2. Such were they of Anathoth in Ieremies time Ier. 11. Such a one was Amaziah of Ieroboams Court in Amos time Am. 7. Such were in the Churches of Corinth and Galatia in S. Pauls time Such are they of the fantasticall crewe in our time vvhich pike out teachers as rot out of an apple c. Doe you not perceiue M. Penry howe fitly saint Paul to Timothee doeth serue your turne you haue bene verie bold with him You haue vsed the holy Apostle as Cacus did Hercules oxen therefore I may not thinke much that my writings are depraued by you Your second reason is this the summe of Christes sermon pronounced by a Popish priest either without or within the booke in his darke Latin is not an edifying worde therefore the word barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not holsome doctrine Your Antecedent might haue bene kept in No man denieth it It is confessed by all of the religion that the scriptures deliuered in an vnknowen tongue doe not edifie The Apostle proueth this notably 1. Cor. 14. In linguis quas non intelligimus surdi sumus Cic. in Tusc that is when vve heare a strange language vve are as deafe men But I denie your Argument it is as strange as the Popish priests latine is darke Euery childe may see the weakenes of it But I must