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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
body_n	bread_n	communion_n	cup_n	8,923	5	10.0506	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10345	The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.	Rainolds, John, 1549-1607.; Hart, John, d. 1586. aut; Rainolds, John, 1549-1607. Sex theses de Sacra Scriptura, et Ecclesia. English. aut	1584 (1584)	STC 20626; ESTC S115546	763,703	768

true that the Greeke word as also the Hebrewe answering thereunto in the olde testament signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on and not a metaphoricall or spirituall altar And if it were as much for the aduantage of their cause to proue that Masse is said in heauen as that in earth and that Christ is properly bread without a figure as that bread is properly Christ in the sacrament the text of the scripture where Christ is called bread yea the true bread would proue the one cléerely as they could fit it with this note and the word altar would put the other out of controuersie chiefely if that were noted withall that an Angell stood before the altar hauing a golden censer though others there also affirme the altar to be Christ. But it fareth with your Rhemists as it is wont with false prophets one buildeth vp a muddy wall and others daube it ouer with a rotten plaister and when a storme cometh the wall falleth and plaister with it For though as they lay it on it séemeth hansom that wordes signifie properly the naturall things which they are vsed to signifie and not metaphoric●ll or spirituall things yet if it be opened that hereby is meant that wordes may not be vsed by metaphores or other figures to signifie those thinges which properly they doo not signifie the boyes in grammer schooles who know what a metaphore is will laugh at it Wherefore this plaister will not helpe the weakenes of your muddy wall I meane of the conclusion which you would proue by it and doo inferre vpon it that we haue an altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christes body vpon In the daubing vp whereof yet your plaisterers do shew a péece of greater art partly by drawing vs into hatred who haue not Popish altars but communion tables partly by winding the names of Fathers in as if they made for you against vs. Both with skill and cunning but more of sophistrie then diuinitie For that which the scripture doth call the Lords table because it is ordeined for the Lords supper in the administration of the blessed sacrament of his bodie and blood the Fathers also call it a table in respect of the heauenly banket that is serued vpon it And this in proper sense Marry by a figure of speech by which the names of thinges that are like one an other in some qualitie are giuen one vnto an other as Christ is called Dauid Iohn Baptist Elias the citie of Rome Babylon the Church of God Ierusalem the Fathers for resemblance of the Ministers and sacraments in the new testament to them in the olde are wont to giue the name as of Priestes and Leuites to Pastours and Deacons so of a sacrifice to the Lords supper and of an altar to the Lords table For these thinges are lynked by nature in relation and mutuall dependence as I may say one of an other the altar the sacrifice and the sacrificers who serue the altar that is Priestes and Leuites Wherefore if the Fathers meant a very altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christes bodie vpon then must they meane also the Leuitical Priesthood to serue in sacrificing of it But the Leuiticall Priesthood is gone and they knew it nether did they call the ministerie of the Gospell so but by a figure Your Rhemists therefore doo abuse them in prouing as by them that the communion table is called an altar properly But vs of the other side they doo abuse more by setting an altar against a common table in such sort of spéech as if we whose Churches haue not a very altar to kill our Sauiour Christ and sacrifice him vpon it had but a common table and profane communion boord to eate meere bread vpon A feate to make vs odious in the eyes of men whom you would perswade that we discerne not the body of the Lord. Which your priuie sclander doth vs open iniurie For we haue not a common but a holy table as both we call it and estéeme it not a profane communion boorde but a sanctified to eate not meere bread but the Lords supper wherein we receiue the bread of thankes-giuing and the cuppe of blessing as the Apostles doctrine and practise of the Fathers teach vs. Your selues are guiltie rather of féeding men with meere bread who do take away the cuppe of the new testament in the blood of Christ from the Christian people and in stéede of the blessed bread of the sacrament do giue in your Masses meere bread in déede by your owne confession the common bread that goeth vnder the name of holy-bread I would to God M. Hart you would thinke with your selfe euen in your bed as the Prophet speaketh and consider more déepely both the wicked abuses wherewith the holy sacrament of the Lords supper is profaned in your vnholy sacrifice of the Masse and the treacherous meanes whereby your Maister and Felowes of the College of Rhemes doo séeke to maintaine it Who being not able to proue it by the scriptures either of the altar or of the cleane offering the principall places whereon their shew standeth they go about to bréede a good opinion of it in the heartes of the simple partly by discrediting vs with false reproches partly by abusing the credit of the Fathers Which two kinds of proofe do beare the greatest sway through all your Rhemish Annotations Hart. We do not abuse the credit of the Fathers to perswade an errour but as we endeuour to folow them in truth so alleage we them to proue the truth by them And howsoeuer you auoide the place of S. Paule where it is said we haue an altar the prophecie of Malachie that in euery place there is sacrificed and offered a cleane offering to God must néedes belong to the verie and outward sacrifice of the Masse not to spirituall sacrifices Which because that reuerend man D Allen whose treatise of the Masse is such a moate in your eye doth proue by sixe reasons the pith whereof he greatly praiseth I will bring them forth in his owne wordes that you may yéelde the rather to them First therefore the word to sacrifice and to offer being vsed by it selfe without a terme abridging it is taken in the scripture alwaies properly for the act of outward sacrifice But when it is said the sacrifice of praise the sacrifice of crying the sacrifice of contrition and the like it is perceiued easily by the wordes annexed that they be taken improperly Secondly this sacrifice of the which the Prophet speaketh is one but spirituall sacrifices there are so many as there are good workes of Christian religion Thirdly this is the proper and peculiar sacrifice of the new law and the Gentiles not of the Iewes But spirituall sacrifices of praiers and workes are common to the Iewes with vs. Fourthly

Gregories Masse did aime at that Which is not so For the principall point thereof is the sacrifice euen the soueraine sacrifice that is our Sauiour Christ offered to God his father And sith this is that which the Canon speaketh of and S. Gregorie offered and the Masse importeth with vs whom you call Masse-priests it foloweth that S. Gregorie celebrated the sacrifice of the Masse as we doo and therefore was a Masse-priest not a Minister of the Communion Rainoldes Then the men women of Rome were Masse-priestes too in S. Gregories time and celebrated the sacrifice of the Masse as you doo For the sacrifice which he offered and the Canon speaketh of is the bread and wine offered by the men and women for the Communion and the sacrifice of prayse which they did offer all to God Hart. Nay it is the very body and blood of Christ. Rainoldes The wordes of the Canon are plaine to the contrarie For it desireth God to accept and blesse their offering that it may be made the body and blood of Christ to th●m It was not the body and blood of Christ therefore but very bread and wine which the faithfull people offered to be ●●nctified to the vse of the Communion Hart. It was bread and wine before consecration as it is declared by those wordes of the Canon But after consecration the Canon saith of it Hostiam puram hostiam sanctam hostiam immaculatam that is the pure holy and vndefiled host Rainoldes But vpon those wordes it foloweth in the Canon the holy bread of eternall life and the cuppe of saluation Wherefore the bread and the cuppe that is the wine though holy now and sanctified to be the bread of life and cup of saluation that is the body and blood of Christ in a mystery but the bread and wine are the pure holy and vndefiled sacrifice or host as you terme it not onely before but after consecration too Hart. Nay the reall body and blood of Christ are meant by the bread and the cuppe in a figuratiue spéech and so Christ himselfe is the pure holy and vndefiled host Rainoldes Where a figuratiue speech is vsed in scripture you will none of it Here where your Canon vseth none you fansy it For it foloweth straight touching that bread and that cuppe vpon the which thinges vouchsafe o Lord to looke downe with a mercifull cheerefull countenance and to accept them as thou didst vouchsafe to accept the offerings of thy righteous seruant Abel So that if Christ him selfe were meant really by the bread and the cuppe in a figuratiue spéech then the Priest desireth God to looke on Christ with a mercifull and cheerefull countenance and to accept of him at the Priests request as he did accept the giftes which Abel offered There hath beene heretofore a saying amongst you which I hope you like not that a Priest is the creator of his creator But by this meanes the Priest is lifted higher to bee the mediator of his mediator And so will you vouch in earnest of Masse-priests that which Tertullian did iest at in the Heathens man must be merciful vnto God now vnlesse it please the Priest Christ shall not finde fauour in his fathers sight Hart. The prayer of the Priest that God will looke vpon his offrings and accept them hath a very good meaning whereof I doo not dout But the former wordes touching the hoste must néedes betoken Christ. For how can the name of a pure holy and vndefiled hoste be geuen to the bread and wine Rainoldes How are they called pure or vndefiled giftes offeringes and sacrifices in the Canon it selfe before consecration Hart. They may be called pure by acceptation there as your selfe expounded Which the Canon seemeth to imports also in that it prayeth God to accept them and blesse them Rainoldes Euen so they may be called here a pure holy and vndefiled sacrifice For the Canon also likewise prayeth God to accept them in expresse termes and in effect to blesse them Whereof it hath a farther and plainer proofe too in that it saith they offer to God that pure sacrifice the bread of life and cup of saluation of his giftes For in saying that they offer it of the giftes of God it sheweth that the very bread and wine is meant Which the people being vsed then to offer as now we offer mony the rest there of was geuen after to the poore a part was taken first for the vse of the communicants that they might be partakers of the bread of life and cuppe of saluation that is the holy sacrament of the body and blood of Christ. Hart. I know that the name of sacrifice is giuen to the peoples offerings and other things often But I am perswaded that by the pure holy and vndefiled sacrifice S. Gregorie meant Christ and so did offer him vp to God his Father in the Masse as we doo Which I thinke the rather because they were Masse-priests as our Apologie sheweth who liued in the function of Priesthood before him For the holy Councell of Nice knew none but such offerers or sacrificing that is Massing-priests S. Cyprian acknowledgeth the Priests of his time to haue offered or sacrificed yea euen in prisons Hee was a Masse-priest that S. Austin sent to doo sacrifice in a house infested with euil spirits They were Masse-priests of whom Eusebius writeth that they pacified the diuine maiestie with vnbloody sacrifices and mysticall consecrations The dignitie of Priesthood set forth in the worke of the same title by S. Chrysostome is specially commended there for the power of dooing the vnbloody sacrifice vpon the altar To be short he and all the other Fathers both Gréeke and Latin were Masse-priests none being euer made but for that purpose principally S. Ambrose testifying that to take the order of Priesthood which he calleth with the Apostle Imposition of hands is to receiue authoritie to offer sacrifice to God in our Lordes steede Rainoldes These testimonies M. Hart of Greeke and Latin Fathers with the rest quoted by your Apologie-writer either at Doway or at Rhemes doo some of them mention offering and not sacrificing some speake of sacrificing but not the sacrificing of Christ. Betweene the which pointes what difference there is for the one himselfe is a sufficient witnesse in that he declareth that sundry things are offered which are not sacrificed for the other they who shew that the faithfull did offer sundry sacrifices as namely of almes of praise of them selues euen at the celebration of the Lords supper But admit they meant by offering and sacrificing the sacrificing of Christ as some of them did yet nether was their sacrificing that which your Massing is nor they who sacrificed Masse-priests For you will haue the sacrifice offered in the Masse to be a very soueraine

your Priestes of the tribe of Leui who offer vp this sacrifice Hart. No syr nor of the Iewes but they are Christian Priestes Rainoldes But they who must offer the sacrifice that is spoken of in the prophet Malachie are of the tribe of Leui. For afterward entreating of the same oblation or offering as we cal it that shall be offered vnto God in the time of the gospell he saith that the Lord shall fine the sonnes of Leui and purifie them as gold and siluer that they may offer an offering vnto God in righteousnes Wherefore if the offering that Malachie doth speake of be the sacrifice of the Masse that is a sacrifice properly then the proper Priestes by whom it is offered are the Iewish Priests after the order of Aaron euen the sonnes of Leui. But if the sonnes of Leui betoken by a figure the spirituall Leuits that is all the faithfull whom Christ in the new testament hath made a royall Priesthood euen Kings and Priestes to God his father as your Montanus well expoundeth it then must the offering by a figure signifie the spirituall sacrifice which Christians of all sortes are bound to offer vnto God And in truth as Christ said of Iohn Baptist If you will receiue it this is Elias which was to come meaning that the Prophet did signifie Iohn Baptist by the name of Elias so I may say to you touching the spirituall sacrifices of Christians If you will receiue it this is the cleane offering which should in euery place be offered to the Lord. For the Prophets when they spake of the gospell of Christ and the religious worship of God in spirit and truth which Gentiles conuerted by the preaching of the gospell should serue him in through all the world are wont to describe it by figuratiue spéeches drawen from the externall and carnall worship of God in the ceremonies of the law So they say that there shall be an altar of the Lord in the middes of the land of Egypt that God will accept the burnt offrings and sacrifices of straungers vpon his altar that all the sheeepe of Kedar shall be offefered on it and the rammes of Nebaioth that the Gentiles shall go vp to keepe the feast of tabernacles from yeare to yeare vnto Ierusalem and euery pot in Ierusalem and Iuda shall be holy to the Lord of hostes and all they who sacrifice shall come take of them and seeth therein finally that the offering of Iuda and Ierusalem shal be sweete vnto the Lord as in the dayes of old and in the yeares afore Wherefore as the Prophets doo mention an offering which the Christian Church shall offer vnto God in the time of the gospell so doo they mention burnt offeringes and sacrifices the sheepe of Kedar the rammes of Nebaioth to bee offered on an altar they mention Ierusalem to bee gone vnto the feast of tabernacles to be kept the flesh of beastes sacrificed to be sodde in pottes the Leuites to be the Ministers who shall make the offering in righteousnesse to God But neither doth the Priesthood of the Leuites continue neither is Ierusalem the place to worship God neither are the Iewish feastes the times to doo it nor will he be serued with sacrifice and offering if they be taken properly The Prophets therefore meant by an allegorie as we terme it to shew that all Christians should as Priests and Leuites offer vp them selues and theirs as sacrifices at all times as solemne feastes in all places as in Ierusalem And so the cleane offering whereof the Prophet Malachie saith it shal be offered in euery place vnto the Lord doth signifie not a sacrifice to be made vpon an altar as your Councell would haue it but the spirituall sacrifice which S. Paul exhorteth the faithfull to offer when he willeth men to pray in euery place lifting vp pure handes without wrath douting Hart. The Prophetes speake much in déed of thinges to come not properly and simply but figuratiuely by obscure spéeches and allegories and parables that must be vnderstood otherwise then they are writen as Tertullian noteth But the name of altar is vsed properly for a materiall altar by the Apostle to the Hebrewes saying we haue an altar whereof they haue not power to eate which serue the tabernacle For he putteth them in minde by these wordes that in folowing too much their olde Iewish rites they depriued themselues of an other maner a more excellent sacrifice and meate meaning of the holy altar and Christes owne blessed body offered and eaten there Of which they that continue in the figures of the old law could not be partakers This altar saith Isychius is the altar of Christes body which the Iewes for their incredulitie must not behold And the Gréeke worde as also the Hebrew answering thereunto in the old testament signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on and not a metaphoricall and spirituall altar Wherefore séeing that we haue a very altar in the proper sense and the name of altar doth import a sacrifice that is offered on it it foloweth that the body of Christ vpon the altar is a very sacrifice in the proper sense And that out of doubt is the cleane offering which the Prophet speaketh of according as the Councell of Trent hath defined Rainoldes And are you out of doubt that by the wordes we haue an altar the Apostle meaneth a materiall altar such as your altars made of stone Hart. What els a very altar Rainoldes And they who haue not power to eate of this altar are the stubberne Iewes who keepe the ceremonies of the law Hart. The Iewes and such prophane men Rainoldes Then your Masse-priestes may and doo vse to ●ate of this altar Hart. They doo And what then Rainoldes Their téeth be good and strong if they eate of an altar that is made of stone Are ye sure that they eate of it Hart. Eate of an altar As though ye knew not that by the altar the sacrifice which is offered vpon the altar is signifyed They eate of Christes body which thereby is meant Rainoldes Is it so Then the worde altar is not taken for a very altar in the proper sense but figuratiuely for the body of Christ the which was sacrificed and offered Neither is it taken for the body of Christ in that respect that Christ is offered in the sacrament in the which sort he is mystically offered as often as the faithfull doo eate of that bread and drinke of that cuppe wherein the breaking of his body and shedding of his blood is represented to them but in that respect that Christ was offered on the crosse in the which sort he was truly offered not often but once to take away the sinnes of many and to sanctifie them for euer who beleeue in him Hart. Nay the auncient Father Isychius expoundeth it

of the bodie of Christ in the sacrament as I shewed which the Iewes must not behold They might behold his body vpon the crosse and did so Rainoldes But the holy Apostle him selfe doth vnderstand it of the bodie of Christ as it was offered on the crosse And that is manifest by the wordes he addeth to shew his meaning touching the Iewes and the altar For saith he the bodies of those beastes whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high Priest for sinne are burnt without the campe Therefore euen Iesus that he might sanctify the people with his owne blood suffered without the gate Which wordes are somewhat darke but they will be plaine if we consider both the thing that the Apostle would proue and the reason by which he proueth it The thing that he would proue is that the Iewes can not be partakers of the fruite of Christes death and the redemption which he purchased with his pretious blood if they still retaine the ceremoniall worship of the law of Moses The reason by which he proueth it is an ordinance of God in a kinde of sacrifices appointed by the law to be offered for sinne which sacrifices shadowed Christ and taught this doctrine For whereas the Priestes who serued the tabernacle in the ceremonies of the law had a part of other sacrifices and offeringes and did eate of them there were certaine beastes commanded to bee offered for sinne in special sort and their blood to be brought into the holy place whose bodies might not be eaten but must be burnt without the campe Now by these sacrifices offered so for sinne our onely soueraine sacrifice Iesus Christ was figured who entred by his blood into the holy place to clense vs from all sinne and his body was crucified without the gate that is the gate of the citie of Ierusalem and they who keepe the Priestly rites of Moses law can not eate of him that by his death they may liue for none shall liue by him who séeke to be saued by the law as it is writen if ye be circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing The Apostle therefore exhorting the Hebrewes to stablish their hartes with grace that teacheth them to serue the Lorde in spirit and truth after the doctrine of the gospell not with meates that is to say with the ceremonies of the law a part whereof was the difference betweene vncleane and cleane in meates doth moue them to it with this reason that if they serue the tabernacle and sticke vnto the rites of the Iewish Priesthood their soules shall haue no part of the foode of our sacrifice no fruit of Christs death For as the bodies of those beastes which were offered for sinne and their blood brought into the holy place by the hye Priest might not be eaten by the Priestes but were burnt without the campe so neither may the keepers of the Priestly ceremonies haue life by feeding vpon Christ who to shew this mystery did suffer death without the gate when he shed his blood to clense the people from their sinne And thus it appeereth by the text it selfe that the name of altar betokeneth the sacrifice that is to say Christ crucified not as his death is shewed foorth in the sacrament but as he did suffer death without the gate Whereby you may perceiue first the folly of your Rhemists about the Greeke worde as also the Hebrew that it signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on as though it might not therefore be vsed figuratiuely where yet them selues must needes acknowledge it to be so too Next the weakenes of your reason who thereof doo gather that by the sacrifice which that worde importeth in the Apostle is meant the cleane offering of which the Prophet speaketh For the cleane offering of which the Prophet speaketh is offered in euery place the sacrifice meant by the Apostle in one place onely without the gate Wherefore the name of altar in the epistle to the Hebrewes doth neither signifie a Massing-altar nor proue the sacrifice of Massing-priests Hart. That which you touch as foolishly noted by our Rhemists about the Greeke and Hebrew worde is noted very truly For you can not deny your selfe but that it signifieth properly an altar a materiall altar to sacrifice vpon and not a metaphorical and spirituall altar Whereby as they conclude that we haue not a common table or prophane communion boord to eate meere bread vpon but a very altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christs body vpon so for proofe hereof they adde that in respect of the saide bodie sacrificed it is also called an altar of the Fathers euen of Gregorie Nazianzene Chrysostome Socrates Augustine and Theophylact And when it is called a table it is in respect of the heauenly foode of Christes body and blood receiued Rainoldes The note of your Rhemists about the Greeke Hebrew word is true I graunt yet foolish too though true in the thing yet foolish in the drift For to the intent that where the Apostle saith we haue an altar it may be thought hee meant not that word spiritually or in a figuratiue sense as we expound it of Christ but materially of a very altar such as is vsed in their Masses they say that the Greeke word as also the Hebrew answering thereunto in the olde testament signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on and not a metaphoricall and spirituall altar Which spéech how dull it is in respect of the point to which they apply it I will make you sée by an example of their owne Our Sauiour in the gospell teacheth of himselfe that he is the true bread which giueth life vnto the world the bread which came down from heauen that whosoeuer eateth of it should not die if any man eate of this bread he shall liue for euer Your Rhemists doo note hereon that the person of Christ incarnate is meant vnder the metaphore of bread and our beleefe in him is signified by eating Wherein they say well But if a man should tell them that the Greeke word as also the Hebrew answering therevnto in the old testament doth properly signifie bread which we eate bodily and not a metaphoricall or spirituall bread were not this as true a speech as their owne Yet how wise to the purpose who is so blinde that séeth not Yea to go no farther then the very word whereof by their Hebrew and Greeke they séeke aduantage them selues vpon that place of Iohn that he saw vnder the altar the soules of them who were killed for the word of God doo affirme expressely that Christ is this altar Christe say they as man no dout is this altar They meane it I hope in a metaphoricall or other figuratiue spéech For they will not make him by transsubstantiation to be an altar properly Yet here it is as

mysticall spéeches wherein the scriptures giue the name of the thing to that which it betokneth as of the passeouer to the lambe and of the rocke to Christ. For I hope you wil not conclude of this shew that really Christ was a rocke or a lambe the passeouer really Hart. These spéeches are not like to that of Christes bodie in the Sacrament of the Eucharist For it is manifest that when the lambe was called the passeouer and Christ the rocke it was meant not really but figuratiuely that the rocke signified Christ the lambe the passeouer But it is not manifest in that of Christes bodie Rainoldes Whither it be manifest or no is not the question but whither the spéeches be like in shew of wordes the rocke was Christ this is my bodie Or to come néerer to your owne example and proofe of that point Christ saith of himselfe that he is true bread and my flesh is meate indeede and my blood is drinke indeede True and indeede these termes are more pregnant for a reall presence then that of Christes bodie Yet if you say that Christ is bread really and his flesh meate and his blood drinke you may as well say that he is really a vine and his disciples branches really and other such reall either blasphemies or follies Hart. Nay we doo confesse that many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratiuely but neither all nor this concerning the Sacrament nor any thing els whereof the literall and proper sense hath not somewhat contrarie to God to religion and to Christian life As D. Allen saith that S. Austin teacheth Out of whom he citeth withall a woorthie sentence touching such as you are If the minde be preuented with an opinion of some errour whatsoeuer the scripture dooth affirme otherwise men thinke it to be spoken figuratiuely Rainoldes That sentence is good as S. Austin vttereth it But D. Allen vseth it ill against vs. The woorse because S. Austin sheweth straight vpon it in the same booke of the same point that to eate the flesh of Christ and drinke his blood was spoken not properly for so it were a wicked deede but figuratiuely flat against that error of the reall presence which hée is pretended to proue by D. Allen. But howsoeuer D. Allen deale in that the point which you graunt with him sufficeth me for proofe of that I saide For if many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratiuely it followeth that the sense of scripture is against the shew of wordes in sundrie places and therfore that the shew of words sundrie times is against the truth Which sith you cannot sée in this Sacrament because of your preiudice of the reall presence I will bring an example of the sacrament of baptisme wherein you must needes sée it There were some of old who as we sprinckle children with water in baptizing of them so they vsed to print and stampe certaine marks vpon them with fire For the which vsage they alleaged the scripture I meane the wordes thereof that touching Iohn Baptist who saying of himselfe I baptize you with water addeth of our Sauiour He will baptize you with the holie Ghost and fire Now I put the matter to your owne iudgement whether they did better who baptized with fire or we who without it Hart. Who doubteth but we For they were deceiued who tooke the name of fire properly in that place where it is vsed figuratiuely to signifie the graces of the holie Ghost who lighteneth and purgeth the hartes of the faithfull They who did baptize in that sort were heretikes as Alphonsus sheweth Rainoldes Yet the shew of words dooth make more for thē Iohn baptized with water Christ baptizeth with fire Neither haue you here so much as that euasion which yet if you had were nothing to the purpose that it is manifest to be meant not properly but figuratiuely For there haue béene sundry churches and nations these many hundred yeares that vsed it and doo still induced all thereto by the shew of wordes as manifest to be meant not figuratiuely but properly in their iudgement And your reall presence hath not gone so far in the one Sacrament with this is my bodie as their firie markes haue gone in the other with the holie Ghost and fire Wherefore to returne to the point in questiō although it may séeme by the shew of words that our Sauiour promised the keyes of the kingdome of heauen to Peter onely yet sith he meant them to all the Apostles as I haue declared your claime will be a bare shew if all your proofe be shew of wordes And therefore as I said so I say againe that you must bring vs foorth some better euidence or els your title will be naught Hart. And I tell you againe that the euidence is good and hath not onely shew of words but sense too if it be rightly taken But we retaine not you to be our lawier to expound it Rainoldes I am not in hast to be retained of you But what mislike you in my expounding of it Hart. That which shall kéepe me from yelding thereunto For your exposition is a priuate exposition which we allow not of We allow onely of the churches exposition Rainoldes Then I perceiue the church shall be your lawier And what is I pray you the churches exposition Hart. That which all the Fathers make with one consent Rainoldes Which all the Fathers make We had néede to haue bodies like the bodies of Oakes and memories as strong as stéele to endure to reade and be sure to remember of euery exposition so much as may ascertaine vs that all the Fathers make it Hath any man liuing read them all Nay haue all the men liuing read them Nay can they shewe them Can they get them I had almost said can they name them Hart. Womeane of the Fathers which are extant commonly and may be had and read If many of them make it and the rest either gainsay it not or say nought of it we count it to bée made of all with one consent Rainoldes That count is euill cast For as in the writings of Fathers which we haue some one expoundeth places of Scripture oftentimes otherwise then all the rest a thing notorious and confessed so it is likely that in those which we haue not some places were otherwise expounded thē they be in those which we haue Yet I will not deny but you had reason so to count For else your lawier had béene dumbe and could not haue spoken a word for his client But if this be your rule of the churches exposition then I could haue made mine exposition the churches with a wet finger if I would haue stuffed it with the names of Fathers For my words of Peter that he alone made answere for all the Apostles receiued the keyes togither with them all are the wordes of S. Austin though I did