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A14048 The rescuynge of the romishe fox other vvyse called the examination of the hunter deuised by steuen gardiner The seconde course of the hunter at the romishe fox & hys aduocate, & sworne patrone steuen gardiner doctor & defender of the popis canonlaw and hys ungodly ceremonies. Rede in the last lefe the xij articles of Bisshop Steuens neuu popish credo. Turner, William, d. 1568.; Gardiner, Stephen, 1483?-1555. 1545 (1545) STC 24355; ESTC S118747 102,679 202

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recyuyng the Sacrament vnder the forme of brede receyuethe bothe the body b●●de therfore the prestes takyng the cup from the laymen ar not chirche robbers as ye say If that it were lauful to reson after Philosophi in a mystery of our faythe then myght a turk reson agaynst vs thus and proue that the bloud that ye haue in the chalice is non of Christis blood all the blood that is in a lyuyng body is warme but it that ye haue in the chalice is cold therfore it is in no lyuyng body but all Christes bloode is in a lyuyng body therfore it is none of hys blode that ye haue in the chalice ye may se now what inconuenience myght cum if a man myght reason after Philosophi of the Sacrament as ye do Therfore let your Philosophi ly a syde til ye haue nede of it resone after the worde of god where vpon thys Sacrament is bilded and not vpon Philosophi ye say that in the kynde of brede only is hole Christis body and bloude thē haue the lay men nothyng taken from them to whiche sayng i answer thus Whatsoeuer of the Sacrament the prestas haue that the lay mē haue not the prestes haue stollen from thē but the prestes haue the blissed and hallowed cup of Christes bloud that the lay men haue not ergo the prestes haue stollē it frō the lay men Euery sacrament hathe hys element with out it it can not be a Sacramēt but ye haue that the lay peple haue it not ergo also that haue ye stollē frō them If ye vnderstand not thes argumētes i wil declare thē withe ij similitudes A certayn father sent to hys son studying at oxforde ij purses one white with a croun in it and v. shillynges of white money the other rede with as myche in it he sendeth with thes ij a letter wherin be biddeth hys son remembre hym when he loketh on the white purse and pray for hym because that is hys gyft and when he loketh on the rede purse that he shuld remembri hys mother who sent hym that the carier lykyng the rede purse well putteth all the money that was in it into the white purse and delyuereth all the money to the scolare in the white purse but he kepeth vnto hym self the rede purse the scolare after hys letters ar red requireth also a rede purse the carier answereth hym frowerdly and sayeth haste thow not all the mony that thow shuld haue what maketh mater whether thow haue thy mony in one purse or ij so thow haue it all and so the child can not git hys rede purs which is worth xiiij d. whether is thys carier a thyefe or no whether hath he don any iniury to the childes mother or no If that he be a thief and haue don iniury to the childes mother for taken a way the remembrance wherby she shuld haue ben remembred an prayed for then ar ye theues and fals cariers in puttyng hole Christe in to the forme of brede and takyng quite a way from the lay peple the forme of wyne whiche ought as wel to call to theyr remembrance by seyng and drynkyng of it the sheddyng of Christes bloud for theyr soules as by breakyng eatyng and seing of the forme of brede they ar bounde to remembre that Christes body was broken offered for the redemption of theyr bodyes as ambrose writeth acordyng to the vayn of scripture vpon the xj chapter of the first Epistel of Paul to the Corinthianes after thys wise Because we ar delyuered by the death of the lorde we remembryng thys thyng betoken it with earyng hys flesh and drynkyng hys blode whiche wer offered vp for vs. The fleshe of our sauiour was offered for the helth of our body and hys blode was shed for the soule as it was a fore hand figured of Moses for so sayeth he the flesh is offered for your body but the bloud for your soule ther fore ye may not eat the bloode Thus far ambrose Nether is the supper of the lorde ordened as ye seme to vnderstand it only to purches for gynenes of synnes but it is ordened to be a remembrance of Christes death and a thankyng of allmyghty god for the benefittes whiche we haue receyued of hym then all they that haue receyued lyke benefit ought to be lyke thankful and mynde ful then lay men ought as wel as the preste to se taste and drynke the forme of wyne as the preste that by the seyng tastyng and drynkyng ther of they may cal as well to remembrance the sheddyng of our sauioures Christis bloud for theyr soules as the preste dothe Thē is your glos al in vayn wher ye say that when as hole Christe is vnder the form of brede that the lay man receyuyng it receyueth the fruit of the hole Sacrament What if ye commanded your steward to gyue euery one of your seruantes to hys diner brede and flesh to eat and wine to drynk to quence hys thurst with and he knede all the brede with wine and gaue them no other wine then it that is dronken vp in the flour and they when they had eaten vp theyr fleshe brede wer fayn for lak of wyne to drynk water and compleyned vnto yow wold ye alow your steward in thys hys doyng or no Doth the wine dronken vp in the brede and so taken as wel quench amānis thurst as it doth when it is taken alone if ye say nay then so doth not the forme of brede receyued alone so wel put vs in remembrāce of Christis blodsheddyng and deth as when the form of brede is taken firstand the forme of wyne is immediatly taken after it after the ordināce of Cyriste More ouer how can he haue lyke sruyt that kepeth but half the commandmēt with hym that kepeth the hole commandmēt He that receyueth only vnder on forme kepeth but half of the cōmandment which is accipite commedite leueth our the other half of the cōmandment bibite ex hoc omnes hoc facite c. Drynk ye all of thys do thys as oft as ye shal drynk do it in the remēbrance of me it foloweth agayn that your sayng is fals wheras ye say that vnder the form of brede alone the lay man receyueth the fruite of both the kyndes The rescuer If ye vnderstand not the mysteri of Christis supper as we do then it is no great sclander for trew men to be called theues of an heretike al thoghe the example were not to be vnponisshed The hunter A man may vnderstand the mysteri of Christis super other wise then ye do and yit be no heretike specially when ye make merchandice of it and appli it to heale swine and shepe and abuse it to bryng ether dede men to lyfe agayn or ellis to redeme damned soules out of hel I called yow no theues till that i shewed your theft and conuict yow of it so shuld ye not haue called
syknesses and to be saluation of bothe body and soule and that images may be worshipped with bowyng of the body with kissyng crepyng to What will thys bold defendyng of Popish superstition bring shortly if it be vnloked to suerly euen it that is in an old prouerbe the Pope home agayn vnto our own dores and that with out a viser where as yit he is partly couered The rescuer From gestyng agaynst holy water ye descend to scolde with the hole realme and go about to proue all thos to commit theft and sacriledge that suffer not lay men communicate in ij tyndes for your reformation there in ther wanteth but on vlisses with hys mace to knok yow betwene the shulders as he did thersites for raylyng vnsemely agaynst the gouernoures The hunter I haue argued ernestly agaynst your coniured and abused water and not gested agaynst any holy water nether haue i scolded with the hole realm but i haue resoned against a sorte of fals Prophetes and bewrayed a nest of fals theues which haue stollen a better thyng thē a golden dyalice from the kyng and all the hole laite of Englond And where ye want Vlisses to knok me betwene the shulders ye may as well commande the deuel to fet hym to yow out of hys graue as ye may commande hym by your coniuryng to cum out of water salt for no nede all elyke Ar theyr not officers enow in Englond to ponishe me if i offend except ye haue sum valiant man of the old world Now speake ye lyke a man of war when ye wold haue me ponished with a valiant warriers wepē It appareth that ye wrote thys at after nown when as ye be a knyght of the garter manfully myndede to shed blood ouernyght that ye may drynk in the mornynge when ye ar a blood suppyng sacrificer The rescuer By whose auctorite acording to goddis treweth the lay men ar there in ordered as hathe bene from the beginnyng how soeuer it lyketh yow to talk in a mask vnknowē If ye take it as it semeth ye donot that in on kynde of brede only ishole Christis body blode thē hathe the lay men nothyng taken from them but reuerently absteyn frō ether kynde the fruyt where of they receyue in form of brede The hunter All the autorite that Princes haue they haue it of god but god gyuethe them no autorite to break hys commandment but god cōmanded that āl men shuld drynk of hys holy cup then the blissed cup is not taken away from the laite by the autorite of the Prince but by the violent tyranni of the clergy whiche becaus they wold seime more holy then the laymen haue taken it from them And in sayng that the laite hathe bene so ordered frō the beginnyng ye suarue far from the truthe for from Christes tyme to saynt Cyprianes tyme the cup was not taken from the laymen the laymen had also in saynte Ieromes tyme and in saynt austenes tyme the hole Sacrament vnder both the formes and was neuer generally forbidden till the generall consel ar constance forbad it to be gyuen in bothe the formes vnto lay men which was in the yeare of our lorde 1415. But that your impudent lye may the better be sene i will bring in witnes agaynst yow Cyprianus ad Cornelium papam in the ij Epistel How teache we them or exhorte them to shed theyr blode in the confession of Christis name if we denye them that shal go a war fare Christis bloode oder how make we them mere for the cup of mariyrdom if we suffer them not by the right of communion to drynk in the chirche of the cup of the lorde Also Cyprian in the fift sermon of them that had fallen telleth how that a decon poured the Sacrament in the forme of wine in to a yong madens mouth which wolde not haue taken it Austen as it is alledged libro sentētiarum de consecratione distinct ij can dum frangitur When the hoste is broken when the bloud is poured in to the mouthes of the faythful what other thyng is ther by betokened thē the offeryng vp of Christis body in the cross and the sheddyng of hys bloud out of hys syde Ierom vpon the thyrd chapter of sophonias the prestes which serue the Sacrament and diuide the lordis blode to hys peple do wikkidly agaynst the law of Christe thyngkyng that the wordes of the prayer make the Sacrament and not the lyfe and that the solemne prayer is only necessari and not the merites of the preste Ambrose sayd to the Emperour as it is writen in the ix book of the threparted stori With what rashnes dare thow receyue with thy mouthe the cup of the precions bloude when as there is so mich vniustly shed blode in the furi of the wordes Certayn popes also did not alow thys kynde of theft as gelasius whiche sayeth We haue perceyued that sum take but a portion of the body and absteyn from the chalice of the holy blode which doutles can not tel what superstition they ar taught to be bounde in shall ether receyue the hole Sacrament or be holden a way from the hole for the diuision of one Sacrament can not be made with out great sacriledge Iulius also sayeth de consecratione dist ij cano cum omne They haue not receyued that witnes spoken in the gospel where they for the fulfillyng of the communion gyue the Sacrament dipped in to wine to the peple where as Ch●●ste gaue hys body bloode to hys Apostelles the desyueryng of the brede is recorded by it self of the gyuyng of the cup by it self alone Moreouer that thys halfyng and partyng of the Sacrament was not in the primatiue chirche that thys doctrine of youres was but stablisshed of late the wordes of the Consel of constance which ar thes do testifi Allthoghe Christe after supper ordened thys worshipful Sacrament and gaue it vnder bothe the formes of brede and wyne to hys discip●es yit that notwithstandyng the autorite of the holy canones and the laudable and approued custome of the chirche hath ordened that the lay mē shuld require it only vnder the one forme And all thoghe in the primatiue chirche thys Sacrament were receyued of the faythful in both the formes yit the custom reasonablely brought in which is to be taken as a law hath ordened that it shall be ●ecey ued of the lay peple vnder the one forme alone So far the wordes of the Consel Then ar yow a shamful lyer whiche say that the lay peple haue had but the on forme of the Sacrament from the beginnyng But now let vs examine your reson Whiche your Popish brother Latomus the lawyer and ye fet out of the forsayde Counsel your reason is thys Christis body is a lyuyng body and a lyuyng body is not with out blode but vnder the form of brede is Christes body ergo ther is also hys bloude then the lay men
me heretik till that ye had shewed my heresi and conuicted me of it The rescuer We deny that the supper hath any halfe at all then is not all your resonyng worth an half penny The hunter Euery diuisible thyng and hole thyng hathe partes where of it is made but the supper is a diuisible and an hole thyng therfore it hathe partes the supper hath in it bread and wyne outwardly and mystically the body and blode of Christe bred is not wyne nether brede is Christis body nether is wine Christis blode nether is Christis blode Christes body and thes ar conteyned in Christes supper theyrfore it hath partes The one parte of an hole thyng is on half and the other part is the other half the supper hath such partes then it hath halues The rescuer Ye make your self wrong Principles and ther vpon in gendre matter To talk on whether the prestis receyuyng may profit other is out of the mater whiche mater ye reson as thoghe ye wold denye communionem sanctorum and the mutual help in prayer and oblation of on membre for an other The hunter Euery vnlearned oldwyfe can say so as ye haue now sayde that i haue made my self wrong principles but a learned man shuld haue proued it and not haue sayd it as lone let the wise reder cōpare thes your wordes with my argumentes whiche i made to proue that the prestis receyuyng could not help other and let hym iudge whether they do clerkly assoyl my argumentes or no. The rescuer And when ye make argument that no mannis receyning can profit him self to remission of syn for as ye say ether he receyueth in sin to hys damnation or out of sin and then nedeth he no remission of sin whose synnes be forgyuen all redy And here the man vseth Sophistri in the worde sinnes only to delude blynd the simple reder with which he desyreth to be of the vnlearned sorte that hys talk may be wondered at more then reproued The hunter Whether the rehersyng of a parre of an argument and the sayng that theyr is Sophistri in it be a sufficient assoylyng of an argument ar no i reporte me vnto all them that can stil in Logik or haue any natural wit The rescuer When he speaketh of lent which hath bene as origen testifieth in the Greke chirche euer from the beginnyng the man speaketh not playnly whether hemiflykethe the prohibition to eat fleshe or the licens granted for money contrary to the prohibition he sheweth no other fault here in but becaus the bishop of rome dothe the lyke And if the man wold ad to thys that because the bisshop of rome in hys chirche wold not suffer men to fast on the sonday that therfore we to disagre with hym shuld eat fish vpon the sonday and fast also he spak euen as wisely as he doth now But he hath made thys for a degre of foly to a grater that folowethe The hunter As for lent and many other ordinances i dyd not go about to confute them but only the chefe and moste gorgious ceremonies and traditiones that your father ordened which i thought if i could confute the triflyng ceremonies shuld easely gyue place as vnmanly weak soudiers do when ther capitaynes ar all taken or slayne And ye speakyng of lent whiche the Grecianes vsed vse Sophistical speache there in for the Grecianes vsed lent diuersly As Eusebius a Grecian by the autorite of Ireneus in the fist book of hys Ecclesiastical histori testifieth sayng Ther is strife not only about ester but also about the maner of fastyng for sum rekē that one day only is to be fasted sum ij dayes other sum mo sum forty dayes Sum countyng both the houres of the day and the nyght so make dayes Whiche diuersities of obseruyng the fast began not now first nether in our dayes but befor vse Socrates also a Greciane writeth in the xj boke of the threparted story that sum fasted iij. wekes before ester sum vj. sum seuen wekes and that neuer the les they called theyr fast quadrage simam the xl dayes faste that is lent and that sum absteyned frō all thyng sauyng drie bred and sum eat byrdes and fishe sum eat of nothyng that had lyfe and sum fasted to one tyme of day and sum to an other And the caus of thys diuersite he sheweth in thes wordes And becaus no olde redyng is found concernyng thys last i reken that the Apostelles haue left it to the iudgment of euery man that euery man shuld worke that whiche is god not of feare or compulsion Now master gardener when as among the Grecianes as thes ancient historiographers do testifi which were Grecianes such diuersitie of lentes hath bene do not ye vse Sophistri to say that lent hathe bene vsed sence the beginnyng in the Greke chirche when as sum of the Grecianes eat wildfouele in theyr lētes an other only fishe If that lent must be holden in Englond becaus it hathe bene holden sence the begynnyng in the Greke chirche then must the mariage of prestes the supper vnder bothe the kyndes be also holden in Englonde for thes ij haue bene holden from the beginnyng in the Greke chirche The rescuer Where for the hatred of the Bisshop of rome he wold we shuld do away the vse of the Latin tong in the chirche and alwayes he calleth the Latin tong the popis mother tong denying that the Romanes spak Latine still which whether they dyd or no in the learned tong sum haue bene that haue probablely douted But what so euer the Romanes haue don they do not so now so litle cause hath he to call the Latin tong the popis mother tong when in sum popis it hath happened and in a great meany of cardinalles also that nether father nor mother ne they them selues haue knowen any whit of it The hunter Rede ipray the good reder in my former booke the argumentes which i made agaynst the syngyng of the psalmes in the Latin tong where it is not vnderstande compare them with thys hye clerkis answer thow shalt espi that he cannot assoyl my argumentes that the fox seketh holes Whether the old popes of whome we haue thes traditiones and ceremonies spak Latin or no whether the olde Romanes spak Latin or no i reporte me vnto all them that ar learned and haue red Ciceroes orationes or Aulus Gelius which writeth that aster the mynde of Cornelius nep●s Cicero was xxiij year old when he pleated the first caus in open iudgment and defended sextum roscium accused of murder He sayd hys orationes in Latine before all the hole multitude if that the comon sorte vnderstode hym not he spak in vayn that they shuld hear hym Erasmus is not of your mynde which sayeth Cnm per uniuersum terrarum orbem Romane loquantur quicunque Romanum agnoscunt Pontificem c. And so is Virgil also agaynst yow which