Selected quad for the lemma: blood_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
blood_n	offer_v	sacrifice_n	shed_v	6,837	5	9.8568	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20940	A conference held at Paris betweene Father Gontier a Iesuite, and Doctor Du Moulin seconded by the Lady of Salignac. Together with Doctor Du Moulin his answere to Gontier his letter to the King concerning the subiect of this conference. By Peter Du Moulin Doctor of Diuinitie, and minister of the Word of God in the church of Paris. Translated according to the French copie printed in Paris.; Veritable narré de la conference entre les Sieurs Du Moulin et Gontier. English	Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658.; Gontery, Jean, 1562-1616. aut	1615 (1615)	STC 7319; ESTC S111071	14,986	30

tooke a Bible and turning himselfe towards Monsieur de Liembrune said that he would shew that vnder the old law the Church was neuer without Sacrificers Du Moul. That is nothing to the purpose we speake of the authoritie which Bishops haue to make Sacrificers vnder the new Testament Gont. Whereupon Gontier being at a stand asked for pen and inke which being brought hee falls a writing without speaking a word and then blotted out that which he had written which made the company wonder at him Du Moul s aid vnto him you gaine time and vnder the colour of writing take leisure to thinke vpon some thing to saue your selfe Gont. Laying aside his writing entreated Du Moulin to set downe his proposition in writing Du Moul. Then at his entreatie writ these words Let any man shew me out of the word of God that the Bishops of the Romish Church haue authoritie to establish Sacrificers in the Church Gont. I will proue vnto you that the Apostles were Sacrificers Du Moul. This is not the thing in question neither doth it proue that which I demaund Gont. It is sufficient if I proue that the Apostles were Priests and did offer vp sacrifices Du Moul. Since you are at a stay and that I cannot draw any proofe from you of the power that Bishops haue to establish sacrificing Priests in the Church let vs see how you proue that the Apostles were sacrificers Hereupon Gontier tooke his pen and wrote that which followes Gont. This word to Sacrifice in his primary signification imports as much as to do an holy thing but the Apostles were ordained to do an holy thing therefore the Apostles were ordained to sacrifice Du Moul. We haue nothing to doe here with Etymologies but with the sence of this word to sacrifice as it is taken in the Church of Rome to wit to offer vp really vnto God the body of Iesus Christ in a propitiatorie sacrifice for the liuing and the dead To pray vnto God is to do an holy thing yet neuerthelesse euery one that praieth is not therefore a sacrificer in this sence whereupon it followes that the conclusion is nothing to the purpose since the word to sacrifice is taken therein in another sence then we take it Gont. I haue proued that which I was to proue Du Moul. I denie it this is nothing to the purpose you tie your selues to the word so to auoide the thing Gont. I haue done enough and you haue granted what I demanded Du Moul. I do not agree with you in that and doe call the company to witnesse if there be any one here which hath hitherto heard Master Doctour speake one word to proue that Bishops haue authoritie from God to establish Sacrificers in the Church or that the Apostles were Sacrificers to sacrifice Iesus Christ Gont. Whereat all holding their tongues Gontier answered and said that Iesus Christ had said vnto his Apostles Do this and thereby commanded them to sacrifice Du Moul. I denie that to do this signifies to sacrifice Gont. This word Do is referred to his body Du Moul. Suppose it were so yet to do his body is not to sacrifice it Gont. In the 26. of Saint Mathew it is said that the bloud of Christ is shed for the remission of sinnes now where the bloud of Christ is shed there is a sacrifice and all that is auaileable to the remission of sinnes is a sacrifice Du Moul. That I denie if it were so Baptisme should be a sacrifice seeing that that also is auailable for the remission of sinnes nor is it true that wheresoeuer any bloud is shed for the remission of sin there should of necessitie be a sacrifice except this bloud be offered to God for without this it is no sacrifice Also it is requisite that this shedding of bloud be made by death but in the Eucharist you cannot shew me either that this bloud is offered vnto God or that this shedding of bloud is made by death Gont. In the 26. of Mathew it is expressely said that the bloud of Christ is and withall hee went to write this argument the bloud shed which is ioined with death is a sacrifice but the bloud shed in the sacrament is ioined with death therefore it is a sacrifice Du Moul. You take that for granted which you are to proue to wit that the bloud which you say to haue been shed in the Sacrament hath beene offered vnto God Secondly I answere that you doe fallaciously adde this same word Ioine to that which I haue said that in the 26. of Mathew it is truly said of the shedding of bloud which by nature is ioined with death But I say that when the very bloud of Christ is really shed in the Sacrament yet it is neuerthelesse not shed by death Gont. By this answere you seeme to allow of my Maior Du Moul. You speake nothing neither haue you produced any thing yet to proue that Iesus Christ hath offered his bloud to God in the Eucharist Gont. I haue proued it sufficiently I need not proue it againe Du Moul. Proue this or confesse that you cannot Gont. Gontier hereupon tooke his pen and writ as followes The bloud shed for the remission of sinnes is contained in the institution of the Eucharist in the 26. Chap. 28. verse of Saint Mathew Du Moul. This doth not enforce at all that Iesus Christ did offer his bloud vnto God in the Eucharist Gont. Hereupon after some silence and complainte of the Ladies desiring vs to conferre about some other matter at last Gontier stood vp vpon his legges and framed an argument which he would not write but Du Moulin writ it as he told it him the argument was this The bloud of Iesus Christ which is shed for the remission of sinnes must of necessitie be offered vnto God but in the institution of the Eucharist contained in 26 Chapt. 28. verse of Saint Mathew the bloud is shed for the remission of sinnes therefore it must needes be offered vnto God Du Moul. I denie that the maior proposition is alwaies true for should the very bloud of Christ Iesus be shed in that same action of the Eucharist it would not follow that it were offered vnto God for a sacrifice for it might be offered or presented to the Communicants and not vnto God It is sufficient that he hath beene offered on the crosse As for the second proposition I acknowledge that the bloud of Iesus Christ was shed but vpon the crosse Saint Mathew saith truly that the bloud of the Lord is shed but hee meanes vpon the crosse as the Romish Bible witnesseth and the very Masse which turne it in the future effundetz that the bloud of the Lord shall be shed I aske of Mr. Doctour whether he will renounce his Bible and his Masse Gont. Gontier taking pen and inke to answere blotted out part of that which Du Moulin had writ Du Moulin complained thereof and shewed it to the

vnawares then when I thought of nothing lesse then conferring with him but hee came prepared and furnished with bookes hauing agreed on this conference before hand with the Ladies I am also giuen to vnderstand by the report of men worthy of credit that a few daies after the conference Gontier dining with my Lord the Prince of Conde and my Lord the Duke of Espernon that the Prince askt Gontier as concerning this matter telling him there went a speech abroad thereof which tended little to his praise and that the sayd Iesuite imputed his little resistance to the great noise there was made but especially to the earnest entreatie of an aduocate yet there was no aduocate nor anie stirre but onelie towards the latter end the three first houres being past ouer with a great silence euerie one looking that Master Gontier should speake whilst hee did nothing but turne the leaues of his Concordance and made as though he did write Now to iustifie this which I speake to bee true I call the assistants for witnesses which sate there from the beginning to the end and God knowes that in the discourse which I haue published I haue dealt as faithfully as I cold possible hauing shew'd it ready writen to those which were present at it to the end that if I had forgotten my selfe in any thing they should correct what was amisse yea I haue yet some part of Mr. Gontiers arguments written with his owne hand of the which hee doth not so much as repeat one word in his letter wherein he reduces our conference to a douzen lines not for breuities sake for he breakes out into other vnprofitable discourses but by an apparant shift for in our conference there were two points aboue others that we chiefely handled one whether Bishops were authorized from God to establish Sacrificers for to sacrifice Iesus Christ the other whether it could possibly be prooued that Iesus Christ did offer vp his bloud to God in the Eucharist because that although his bloud were really shedde yet it is not a sacrifice if the bloud be not offered vnto God These two points beeing of such importance how comes it to passe that Mr. Gontier writing to the King doth not satisfie them nor so much as mention a word of them at all did he thinke his Maiesty vnworthy to be throughly informed in the truth of the matter or why doth he frustrate the people of this their expectation And if in the conference hee had not a word to speake heereupon why doth he not yet repaire his credit heerein by his writings vpon farther studie why is he so loth to speake anie more of the passage in Saint Cyprian which is in the 9. Epist of the first booke alleadged by my Ladie Baronnesse of Salignac doth hee not perceiue by this that he hath spoken nothing worth the considering but that a ladie hath spoken that which deserues to be weighed Nay he shewes that he neuer read the place seeing that he produceth it so disguised and which is more saies in the margent of his booke that this is the 66. chapter when Saint Cyprians Epistles are not distinguished by chapters doubtlesse my Ladie of Salignac who hath ten times more learning for a Ladie then he for a Doctor could haue taken him vp for this Saint Cyprian indeed speaks in the place alleadged of alters and sacrifices but by sacrifices he vnderstands the presents which the people offered on the table of which one part was laid aside for the celebration of the Eucharist wherefore in his Sermon of almes he takes vp the rich men which men which came to receiue without offering anie sacrifice Doest thou come saith he to the Lords Table without a sacrifice doest thou take part of the sacrifice which the poore hath offered and in the same ninth Epistle in the honour of the brethren which offer vp offrings as if they did receiue the tithes of fruits Let them not depart from the Altar and sacrifices As concerning prayer for the dead which began to be in vse in the time of Tertullian and of which Saint Cypryan speakes in this Epistle this is a praier which at this daie the Church of Rome doth allowe of no more then wee seeing that then they praied for the Saints and Martyrs and that it shall neuer bee found that any one praied for the deliuerie of soules out of purgatorie but onely for the enfranchisement of soules kept in prison and sleeping in the bosome of peace of which you haue a feeling in your masse where the Priest praies in this manner for the dead Lord thinke on thy seruants which sleepe in the bosome of peace Amongst the number of which the ancient Church doth reckon the Saints who also as they thought in the next age to St. Cyprian should bee purged by fire in the last day of iudgement not exempting so much as the virgin Mary herselfe as wee haue shewed by a great number of proofes in the last chapter of a booke entituled The waters of Silo. Neuerthelesse Master Goutier least hee should haue nothing at all to say doth accuse mee for denying our owne Bible How so because saith hee that when he did alleadge these words vnto me which is shed for vs I said this was to be vnderstood in the future A ridiculous calumnie Rather on the contrary I say that our Bible doth turne the words more faithfully then that of the Church of Rome seeing that it is in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is shed and not shall bee shed as the Bible of the Church of Rome and the masse haue it But it is one thing to aske what is the best translation of the words of Iesus Christ another thing to aske what is the meaning of the words for our translation onely is true but the Romish Bible doth expound the meaning and intention of Iesus Christ which is to promise that his bloud shall be shed for vs on the crosse failing in the turning but not in the drift of his words as if when Iesus Christ saith Ioh. 10. ver 15. I lay downe my life for my sheepe one should translate it thus I will lay downe or leaue my life hee indeed should lay downe the true meaning of his words which although it were true yet ought it not to be inserted in the text Let this suffice for an answer to Master Gontiers letters letters without sinewes without ioynts puft vp with a childishly affected kinde of swelling which we do therfore here pricke to the end we might bring it downe Had he no bodie to present them to but his Maiestie The Pagans in their sacrifices did neuer offer an Ape vnto their gods but these men presume to offer apish to yes to so great a Prince which holds the place of God among vs who being wonderfull in his patience since he suffereth himselfe to be thus serued is no lesse wonderfull in the clearenesse of his iudgement For hee knowes well that

companie Gontier exeused himselfe and said he did it vnwittingly afterward he began to write these words this offring cannot be made vnto the people Afterward he paused vpon it and blotted out that which he had written then passing that ouer he posts to the second article of Du Moulins answere who required him to answere to the first article Gontier answered that he would not answere to it at all and that in his answering he would haue to do with those parts which hee thought most feeblest Du Moulin prest him againe saying that his conclusion was weake whilest that one of his propositions remained still denied Gontier refused againe Some that sate there comming vnto him whilst he did thus delay vrged him vnto it yet he persisted in his refusall but vppon the second article he said that Du Monlin denied his owne Bible which saith is shed and not shall be shedde Du Moul. Answered that our translation was turned faithfully according to the Greeke and that this did proue nothing but that the exposition of the Romish Church which the bibles approued by the counsell of Trent and the Masse it selfe doth carry is false Gont. Gontier then made one of Robert Stephens Greeke Testaments be brought vnto him and for to weaken the authoritie of the Greeke text said that many things there had beene changed and that at the end of the booke there was a table of more then fiue hundred seuerall readings Du Moul. Answered that these diuers readings did not alter the sense at all that all this inueighing against the originall of the new-testament did not help him a iot to proue that which as yet he could not proue to wit that Iesus Christ offered vp his bloud to God in the Eucharist and he called vpon Gontier to proue it Gontier continuing in denying to proue it to him and the disputation being there at a stay all the Ladies to gratifie him entreated them to talke of some other subiect and said that this matter was to deepe for their capacities A new matter proposed ONe of the Ladies therefore requested that these words might be expounded This is my body Du Moulin Answered and said That no man doubted of the truth of these words and that wee should beleeue the Scripture according to the exposition that it carries of it selfe that these words This is my body were thus expounded by the Apostle Saint Paul 1. Cor. 10. chap. 16. vers The bread which wee breake is the communion of the body of Christ An exposition which the Church of Rome doth reiect not beleeuing at all that it is bread nor that we breake bread nor that this bread so broken is the communion of the body of Christ seeing that it is his very body Hereunto adde that the Euangelists do with a ioint consent witnesse that Iesus Christ broke bread and gaue it He tooke bread broke it and gaue it Therewith the Church of Rome denies not beleeuing that hee gaue bread Nay which is more it denies these words This is my body For seeing the word This signifies that which he gaue and seeing that he gaue bread the sense of these words This is my body is This bread is my body the which the Church of Rome denies Gontier on the contrarie opposed against this that Saint Paul had said in the Eucharist that the body of our Lord is broken for vs that the bread whereof hee speakes saying The bread which we breake is his flesh as it is said in the sixt of Saint Iohn The bread which I will giue is my flesh Du Moul. Replied and said that herein Gontier contradicted the Church of Rome which doth not beleeue at all that the Lords body is broken in the Eucharist and asked of Gontier whether he would subscribe to this That the Church of Rome doth beleeue that the body of the Lord is broken in the Eucharist that Gontier by this word Bread meaning the body of Christ makes the words of Saint Paul ridiculous making him to say that the body of Christ which wee breake is the communion of the body of Christ That in that place of Saint Iohn he speakes not at all of the Eucharist but promiseth to yeeld himselfe vnto death as he makes manifest by the words following The bread which I will giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world now he did not giue himselfe for the life of the world but in his death Gont. Hereunto Gontier answered nothing but only this that these words I will giue being twise repeated were taken in two seuerall significations Afterward being required to subscribe that the Church of Rome doth beleeue that the body of Christ is broken in the Sacrament He tooke paper and writ Christ hath broken his body in the Eucharist Saint Paul 1. Cor. 11. vers 14. which was not that which was demanded of him Hereupon being required to speake his minde freely and tell in his conscience whether he thought the Apostle Saint Paul did speake truth saying that we breake bread He answered flatly that he would answere no more then he had done alreadie which moued one of the Gentlemen that sate by Master Paupart by name who came in at the latter end of the conference to say vnto him wee haue brought our eares but it seemes you want a mouth This done Gontier being prest a new to proue that Iesus Christ hath offered his bloud to God in the Eucharist forsooke the battaile and being ashamed of himselfe and cleane out of heart retired into one of the corners of the chamber where being all alone he falls a writing what he thought best in a paper apart which when he had shewed vpon the table a little after hee toare in peeces snatching it out of the handes of my Lady of Liembrune who was willing to haue kept it He therefore giuing roome my Lady Baronesse of Salignac succeeded in his place The vpshot of the conference MY Ladies discourse tended to this end I haue said she withdrawne my selfe from the religion wherein I was bred after I came once to the through discussing of the cause I haue spent foure whole yeares in sounding of this I haue looked vpon all the Fathers Latine and Greeke I kept a man of purpose to translate them I haue found that the Fathers of the foure first ages are conformable in all things to the faith of the Church of Rome hereupon I was confirmed in mine opinion and my conuersation hath turned diuerse others Du Moul. Said Madame since you vnderstand that which you do so well giue me leaue to aske you if you do not call vpon the Virgine Mary and if the forme of your praier wherein you call vpon her be not Aue Maria c. yes said she Then Du Moulin said vnto her you do not therefore vnderstand what you do for by speaking thus you thinke you pray to the Virgine Mary but indeed you pray vnto God for her saying vnto