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A89859 Weaknes above wickednes, and truth above subtilty. Which is the Quakers defence against the boaster and his deceitfull slanders. Clearly seen in an answer to a book called Quakers quaking; devised by Jeremiah Ive's against the dispised contemptible people trampled on by the world, and scorned by the scorners. In which the deceits are turned into the deceivers bosome, and the truth cleared from the accuser. In much plainesse, that the simple may see and perceive, and come to be gathered to the Lamb, from amongst the armies of the wicked, who have now set themselves against the Lord, and sees it not. Also some queries to Jeremy Ive's touching his false doctrine and deceits. / by one who is called, James Nayler. Naylor, James, 1617?-1660. 1656 (1656) Wing N327; ESTC R207303 22,439 32

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excluded Thy thirteenth errour is that James Nayler said that none can come unto God or Christ but who come to perfection whereby it seems thou denies God or Christ to be perfection for be they granted to be perfection then none can come to them but they come to perfection But how blinde thou art who calls this an Errour is easily seen thy faith and thy doctrine who preaches against perfection but the Ministers of Christ preached to present every man perfect which thou preaches gainst Eph. 4. 11 12 13. Col. 1. 28. So we rather chuse the Apostles doctrine which standing in the faith of God which believes perfection though by the Infidells it be called Errour then imbrace a doctrine of Devills that doth not believe perfection neither was there ever any of the children of God in thy work pleading against perfection and for sin dwelling in them Thy fourteenth Errour is that I say that at all seasons whensoever the Saints either eat or drink they were to have Communion with the body and blood of Christ in their eating and drinking I say this must needs be counted an Error with the belly Gods of the world who deny the faith of Christ and so know no word in them to sanctifie the Creature such is not like to have Communion with Christ but with the lust who serve their own bellies who are at the table of Devills are not like to have Communion with the Lord but are observers of times and carnall things and therefore to such it must needs be counted an Errour so often as they eat and drink thereof to doe it in remembrance of him till he come if this be received for a truth the Devill knows there is no place for the Lust and so would hold it for an errour that he might feed without fear Thy fifteenth Errour is that James Parnell denyed all Baptismes but that of the holy Ghost so that to own the Baptism of Christ and to deny all else with thee is counted an errour but did not the Apostle erre also who said we are all baptized into one body by one Spirit and witnessed one faith and one baptisme and said he was not sent to baptize and this he witnessed who had the faith of Christ which thy faith counts an Errour And thou goes about to prove your water by questions and crooked consequences as from Circumcision and the like but cannot find one Scripture that doth command it with water after Christ sufferings or otherwise then Johns ministry wherein all may see your foundation who say the Scripture is your Rule but cannot find one plaine Scripture for that which you so highly worship and would impose upon all as a matter of salvation but must flye to your consequences to hold up that which you would make people believe is an everlasting Ordinance for which you can shew no command neither from Letter nor Spirit Moses in all his house left his Ordinances upon better grounds then consequences and meanings and that he which is much more faithfull should come short is not believed by those that know him but suppose that any doe yet own that forme of Baptisme used by the Disciples in John Ministration with that they must deny your tradition which misseth theirs both in Call Manners and Find as I have often proved for he that faith the Letter is his rule must not misse it in any thing for it they break it in one he is guilty of all much more you that misse in the maine Thy sixteenth errour is that we preach that every Man in the world hath a light within him and yet one of us thou sayest asked a Minister of the Nation whether he had that light which doth enlighten every one that comes into the world so that to ask a question which is a known Truth to prove the party asked with thee must be an Errour and this thou hoyseth up with great swelling words as though it were the greatest Errour that ever was in the world and sayes herein we are the sad spectacle of Gods spirituall judgements that ever any age hath heard of and many such loud exclamations against us for this great Errour But what thinks thou of Christ who askt the Disciples whom they said he was and yet knew they had this light in them which revealed him to be the Son of God hadst thou then lived and heard it he should not have escaped thy censure besides many other questions that he asked well known to him before the asking of them And thou goes on heaping up a deal of confusion and accuses some body but names not who sor saying that they might as well have burt the Scripture as his writing being given forth by the same Spirit the Scriptures were and by this thou sayest all that thou hast said is justified to which I say the works of the Spirit are known to be the same in their severall measures as ever they was neither is it to be more undervalued then formerly but how that Man saying so if any such there was doth justifie all thy lyes and false accusations cast upon us is a slender proof yet if we will believe thee it justifies all Thy seaventeenth Errour is thy lye where thou sayes we study and devise deceitfull tearmes that look with two faces like the Oracles of the Heathen Gods And the substance of this slander is because that Farnsworth when he was charged to say that Paul was not converted when he spoke those words in the 7 of the Romans he denyes that he doth affirme any such thing and this is counted a great Errour for sayes thou it was a negative as though it was not an affirmative to affirme there is not such a thing as well as to affirme there is such a thing and this thou aggravates as a great offence whereby thou shews in plainnesse to all that are honest that thou canst find nothing of matter against us therefore thy mischievous minde having a mind to slander hath the thing to make out of thine own bosome wherewithall to doe it Thy eighteenth Errour is that which thou call our lying First in that we say we are perfect and this is a lie of thy own and shall rest upon thy head till thou prove we have so said The second is that we say we are immediately sent of God which is a truth in them who are so sent so to say and the lie is thine own till thou prove the contrary The third lie is that one Fox said the world did not know his Name and yet after saith known by the Name of George Fox I say the Saints who have over come have a new name which none knows but he that hath it yet all the knowledge the men have of them is by a carnall name and this is true and witnessed onely the lye is in thy own ignorance The fourth lye is that Edward Burrough said his Book was sealed with the Spirit and this is
Church which is his body which cannot be said to be Christ distinct from that body and so cannot properly be said to have two bodies the one of them being the Christ Neither doe we herein deny that Christ our head to take flesh wholly as thou falsly accuseth us but we own him that came from Heaven and is ascended into Heaven that word that became flesh and dwelt among us which thou knowest not who hath denied that faith which is the gift of God with Himancus Pluentus with whom thou wouldst charge us adding a lie thereto as though we say the Resurrection is past And another lie thou tellest that one of us being asked the Question answers that Christ was but a figure and to prove that lie thou sayest See Sauls Errand to Damascus page 54. when that Book hath but 37 pages in it a sutable proof for such a lie Neither is there such an Answer by any of us in all that Book as thus thou proves thy work with thy owne shame And thou goes on to tell whom we have affinity with as Gnosticks and Mamchers c. but is not thy affinity with them who art so well skill'd in their Opinions which we meddle not with and is it not by their Spirit which thou boasts to know what ten of us will say before hand their Spirits we deny and thine also with the Papists and the rest which thy filthy mind would compare us to to make us odious that with the rest of thy bundle of light vain frothy talk and stories which thou hast set in thy Book which airie spirit stinks and its words in the nostrills of all sober men as thy long story of a Monk set in a Chaire of carrying a bushel of coals to Newcastle of Hares and Hounds of Apes and coulting language and such filthy stuffe as thou fillest thy Book with might sute a Stage-play more like then a sober Christian all which we turn thee back with the heap of thy confusion which in thy Book is not worth answering Then thou comest to the conclusion as thou sayest and thou exhortest that every one would compare what thou hast writ with the holy Scripture and then judge So say I also that they may see thee a perverter of Scripture and a liar as I have proved thee Another lie thou tellest also that all that thou hast writ against us is either from our own mouths or our own writings when the greatest part of the accusations thou hast gathered out of a bloody persecuting Petition of the Priests of Westmorland which are their lies cast upon us not our words nor writings And the rest are such as with thy Divination thou hast raised out of the bottomlesse pit which with the truth are turned upon thine own head but us they touch not Something more thou makest as though thou couldst say of the evill manners of some of our Teachers but thou forbeatest To which I say they that are blind may believe it is thy moderation but who hath an eye to see how into the depth of Satan thou art gone to drag up all this filth in thy book to cast upon us who are clear of it I say he who well notes this will find cause to be of another mind Thou addest a Postscript to thy Book no lesse full of wickednesse then the rest and that is wherein thou hast perverted my words into a lye who was speaking of the two Seeds the Old Man and the New one born after the flesh the other after the Spirit and because I said that Christ is not born after the flesh but after the Spirit this thou wouldst pervert as though I denied Christ come in the flesh at Jerusalem which some seeing thy murtherous mind at that time did write down the words then spoken and have set to their hands which may shew thy wickednesse and clear the truth as followeth 22d 4th Month 1656. At the Bull Mouth in Martins London JAmes Naylor declaring of the two Seeds the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of the Serpent the light being in the One and the Darknesse in the other in reference to what Jeremy Ives alledged from that Scripture He that walketh not according to this Rule it is because there is no light in him said That Christ was not born after the flesh but after the Spirit That that which was born after the flesh was flesh and that which was born after the Spirit was Spirit and except a man was born of water and the Spirit he cannot see the Kingdome of God Jeremy Ives hearing what was spoken said I have now what I lookt for and afterwards demanded of James Naylor the same thing againe James Naylor said That Christ was not borne after the flesh but after the Spirit and immediately adjoyned For that which is born after the flesh is flesh and that which is born after the Spirit is Spirit And also said that Christ was begotten of the Father and born of the Virgin that he was true flesh and true blood and that he appeared in the likenesse of sinfull flesh but was not sinfull Hest And these words he spake together whereof we are Witnesses George Bishop Richard Greneway Robert Rich. William Wilson Richard Davies Humfrey Wollrich Robert Dring John Clarke AND whereas thou sayest the Scripture makes no such distinction as born after the flesh and after the Spirit read Gal. 4. 29. and thou mayest see that lie contradicted And that be that is born after the flesh is a persecuter of him that is born after the Spirit So it was before Christ suffered at Jerusalem and so it is now Neither was Christ as he was born of Mary born after the flesh but by promise begotten and brought forth though he was true and holy flesh in the likenesse of sinsull flesh but not sinfull flesh being begotten not of sinfull flesh but of the Holy Ghost by the word of the promise which word became flesh but is not after the flesh but how shouldst thou know what he is that came down from Heaven or how he is born who hast denied the faith which is the gift of God Thy earthly faith knowes not the heavenly body whose flesh is the life of all Creatures how it is begotten neither how it is born A Promise thou makest in the latter end of thy Book which here I mind thee of which if thou perform may be profitable to thy soule therefore I am the more willing to put thee on it The Promise is this That if by the words of truth it shall be made manifest that thou hast spoken any untruth thou shalt with readinesse of mind make a publick acknowledgement of it unto the world which if thou perform now that thy lies are clearly laid open there is not much of thy Book that must stand undenied But that Spirit which made the Promise so far before hand whose repentance stands in thy own will will never perform this Promise Thou